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Story Response · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: So I wanna talk about Bill's presentation a little bit and this thing about stories, which we listened to his presentation last year. And so to sort of get level two of this or the next bit of this, however you wanna say it, was kind of intense in some ways. One of the most important things that we got out of this was how the system does not have to have the same story. So one of the things to remember is from the story, I mean, there's so much to glean from this, and so much of it will be personal to you. But some of what he talked about in his presentation is how part of our story is historical, like what is actually accurate.
• 1:50
  But then there is also the autobiographical story, which has to do with what is truth, like our personal truth, our story about our story, really. And then making that mythic is what is our meaning? How do we find our own hero to triumph? And then as part of that, one of the things that he said was how the system does not have to have the same story. And this was really powerful.
• 2:22
  So we can have some parts that hold historical facts that are accurate, and we can have other parts that have stories that are more autobiographical, like this is what this meant to me. Right? Or here's what my story felt like, or what it was like to be in that. And that's somewhere we get those metaphors even, like what Kathleen Adams was talking about in her examples of using metaphor as one way of telling our story. It also is very expressive, and I wanna talk to Bill about this more.
• 3:00
  But for now, the other thing to remember is that different parts of us may have different stories about the same event just because they have different stories. So part of making our story mythic is working together not to change anyone's story or for someone to tell a story that they don't wanna tell or to try to change someone's story when they wanna keep their story, but how to make that mythic. So later that night after this, I was actually in class with I'm in the level three class with ISSTD. And one of the things the teachers, who's John O'Neill, actually, One of the things he pointed out in discussion of class, which I'm not gonna get into right now, but one of the things that John O'Neil said was that the thing to remember about apparently normal parts or ANPs, because we were talking about how they're functioning and how there's more to structural dissociation than just that, but what he said blew me away. He said, remember that ANPs are not just apparently normal.
• 4:19
  One part of them is actually normal. So this goes back to storytelling where we tell ourselves, oh, it's my A and P who can function. It's my A and P who's getting work done. It's my A and P who gets parenting done or the job done or whatever your example is of what you think functioning looks like. But those things are actually normal.
• 4:48
  And EPs, feeling emotions or responding to trauma with trauma responses, those are also normal. So it's not just that we're apparently normal, we actually are normal. Normal responses to what's been going on. And so I just loved that example of how the storytelling played out. The other thing that Bill talked about that I wrote down to remember was about endings, closed stories, and open stories.
• 5:21
  So closed stories have no ending, and the trauma just keeps looping again and again. Right? So what parts do I have who are still in a closed story? Maybe they are parts stuck in memory time. Maybe they are parts who just have not been able to participate in therapy yet or who have unresolved stuff.
• 5:46
  But what is it that is looping over and over again because it's a closed story? And how do we open that story or expand that story or shift that story so that that part can move through with an ending or have the heroes win or recognize how they are their own hero in the story. So an example of this that I wanna say that I can share because it's neutral as far as not new content for the podcast of my own memory time stuff, but it's material we've already shared. So we have this grief from our previous therapist, right? But we went for the first time since COVID to a musical in the theater.
• 6:39
  And that was great. It was great. But one of the actors in the play or in the musical looked and moved exactly like our previous therapist. Like, if I did not have the context of I'm at the musical in the theater, I would have sworn it was her. Like, she looked exactly like she this actor was my previous therapist.
• 7:07
  Like, what do you call them? Puddle pingers? Puddle pinger pinger? I can't remember what it's called. But, like, looked exactly alike, moved exactly alike.
• 7:21
  Like, not just a picture of, oh, that reminds me of her. The way she carried her body was exactly like her. The way her hair was, the way she looked, it looked exactly like her. Totally tripped me out. And normally, this would have been a triggering thing.
• 7:38
  It would have triggered panic because I don't want to be in trouble. It would have triggered fear because I don't want to hurt. It would have triggered grief and all layers of grief feelings, very big feelings, and it would have really shut me down or been very difficult to process or to move through that because two years ago for us, that was a close story. We were looping through that same trauma and it took us ages to get out. Right?
• 8:13
  But since then we have. We actually have worked really hard. We've done some eye movements. We've told our story. It feels like our story has been received.
• 8:24
  But here's the thing. Other than that therapist wrote us an apology letter, which we appreciated and understood the intent, But also in the letter, we finally understood she actually didn't understand at all what we were going through or what happened on our end. And so understanding that helped us answer the question of like, why would she do this to us? Because there was so much good before that, right? And there are lots of valid things that we still use and keep and have shared on the podcast that were fantastic tools and part of our healing journey.
• 9:05
  All of that is still valid. We get to keep the good, especially in the context of therapy because therapy is mine. Right? It does not belong to my therapist. My therapy work is mine.
• 9:18
  So we have come a long way and have worked through a lot of layers, done a lot of eye movements. It feels a little more neutralized so I can remember it. I don't forget it. I'm aware that it hurts deeply. I'm aware how devastating that was, but the feelings are more neutral now.
• 9:42
  It feels more neutralized. Like I can stay in the present when I feel this. Right? So this is why I'm giving this example because it's now memory time, even if it was new memory time. Because in the present and now time, I am safe enough to be able to contain myself to hold space for difficult feelings, but also process them and let them go.
• 10:09
  So when I'm at the theater and I'm seeing this actor and, like, I'm stuck in there for an hour and a half or whatever, like, I can't just get away, I I'm seeing her, and I am able because I've done this work, I'm able to open my story and just hold space for my story. I can say to myself literally, self? No. I'm just kidding. I don't do that.
• 10:38
  I can say to myself, okay. Here's what is happening in memory time. I'm in the theater. I'm watching a musical. This actor reminds me of my previous therapist.
• 10:53
  She sounds like her. She looks like her. She moves like her. And also, as I am reminded of my previous therapist, I am feeling all of the feelings. Here are all of the big feelings that come to the surface, and I'm just going to swim around in them.
• 11:16
  I'm not drowning, but holding space that this is actually happening is safe enough because I have good support. I have a new therapist. I know how to ground myself. I know how to breathe. I know how to orient myself to the present.
• 11:38
  I know how to feel everything without drowning in those feelings. And I can feel all the feelings but also hold awareness for things like oriented to time and place. I'm safe in the theater. I am I am safe. I'm not alone.
• 12:05
  I'm in the theater. Right? I can do all of those things. So the historical facts are that I'm in the theater watching a musical with my friends. I but the autobiographical story is that the actor looks like my previous therapist.
• 12:31
  That brings up a lot of big feelings, and I am feeling all the feelings. Right? But instead of just getting stuck or, like, panicking and running out or going into, like, flight, fight, or freeze, I used what I just learned from Bill to practice this of, like, I can hold this space, and I can be aware of this. Now in real life, in historical facts, this therapist is not going to connect with me, is not going to understand me, is not going to be restorative. Like, what has happened cannot be fixed, And what has happened cannot be undone.
• 13:18
  And so it just is. And that's part of what hurts so much and part of why I can't go back. I cannot do therapy with someone who literally is not comprehending my experience. Does that make sense? It's not about they're bad.
• 13:35
  They're not bad. I don't have to make it good or bad or binary thinking. I just know it is not I can't do therapy with someone who doesn't understand my experience. Right? And so that is where all the hard feelings are because that's where the grief is, the betrayal trauma, the relational trauma, all the things are in that little piece.
• 13:59
  But I'm containing it okay, and I'm managing it okay because we've done the eye movements. We've talked about it in therapy for a year. So is it hard? Yes. But can I manage it?
• 14:12
  Yes. But because I was just editing Bill's Bill's story episodes, I was able to use that as a new tool and think, how am I going to shift my story? How am I going to open up my story? And so I watched this actor on the stage. And in the story that she was in as part of the musical, not real life, not now time, but as part of the musical, she suffers.
• 14:47
  She suffers in the musical. There's some trauma that happens in the musical, and I could take that, like, in my own hypnotic suggestion kind of way. Like, I don't know how else to describe it. I could take that and not be happy that she was suffering, but feel the relief of we are finally in attunement. I was suffering.
• 15:15
  You whose job it is to reflect my experience now also are showing that you're suffering. And finally, in some strange bizarre way that only happens in musical theater, I felt like that story stopped looping. The missing piece happened. Does that make sense? But then at the end of the musical, this character kind of gets through the hard thing that happens, and it shows, like, how she's restored back to her life before, and she's happy again.
• 15:54
  And so I could take that piece too because I don't wish my previous therapist ill. Like, I don't want her to be miserable or feel bad. And so I could show that to myself. Look. She struggles too.
• 16:09
  She understands struggling too even if she didn't understand mine, and she has moved on back to her real life, back to her regular life, back to her life before me or outside of me, like outside of her office. Right? And she's okay. So those parts of me that worry about her or miss her can see that even though I'm just using the autobiographical story of the musical, that's not even my story. But using that as a tool to open my story and help those parts move through to a new ending where we suffered.
• 16:55
  It was a terrible tragedy. It was awful, but also we're okay. And she is okay. She has her life. She got, like, the life she wanted, the life she's created.
• 17:11
  That is fantastic for her. We are doing the same work, and we have created our own life. It's completely different than before, and we're okay. And so just like that, by simply sitting with the hard trigger in the theater, I was able to work through a really hard layer that was very deep and beyond just the story that they were telling on the stage. But for me, it was very real and very personal.
• 17:48
  And so looking back on this, when he talks about heroes, I felt relief. I felt a lightness in the same way that I feel better after some very gentle, slow eye movements. I just felt like this piece has settled into place. This piece has been neutralized. Like, it's just okay.
• 18:14
  It's better now. Like, it no longer is a thing because I moved through it, not just through it and, oh, it's crossed off and everything is closed. Like, I don't have to close the book because the book is my life. I am the ship. I am the book.
• 18:29
  I am the story. But I couldn't move beyond that chapter. I don't have to keep going back and rereading the same chapter. Does that make sense? It was kind of amazing, and I had to share with you what that was like.
• 18:45
  The other thing I've loved about what he shared is that heroes are initiated. You can't just say you're a hero. You become a hero by going through something. So I was thinking about that in the theater as well as how and about what my therapist, my current therapist, my Linda has been saying about how it was me who got me through that. And that when it was uncomfortable for me or did not feel safe, I got myself out of that situation.
• 19:24
  I removed myself. Like, I tried all these trauma responses first because I literally didn't know better. But as I did begin to understand what was happening and as I did learn, I was able to get myself out of it. Like, that was my initiation. 2020.
• 19:43
  I mean, there's a lot of initiations in memory time. Right? But in this example, 2019, 2020 was my initiation so that I could come through full circle in 2021 into 2022 as my own hero of that story. How powerful is that? Right?
• 20:04
  And the the piece that's hard is that nobody else cares. When you're a hero, when you're initiated through your own journey of pain and struggle or trauma, Bill said trauma survivors have been through something, but haven't been acknowledged as heroes. And so this is part of what's difficult because, like, look, I I got through this thing, and I finally feel better after literally working on it for 03/2019, 2020, 2120 oh my goodness. This is the fourth year that is unbelievable and also a little bit humiliating. I can address that story later.
• 20:52
  But this story, like, it's my fourth year wrestling with what happened with my previous therapist. And, like, there's nobody out there's nobody at the theater who goes, oh, and by the way, at the end of our musical today, we're gonna congratulate Emma who has worked through this issue with her previous therapist because she used our play to change her story. No. That does not happen. And so that's part of what's hard about being a hero because it's not acknowledged.
• 21:26
  But when I did that with the theater and watching that actor and feeling the story unfold and circle back full circle, where she gets through the trauma and returns to her normal life as normal as you can be, Like they say new normal. Right? But you know what I mean. And so seeing that happen, this was like me acknowledging for myself. I got myself through this.
• 21:54
  I was the ship. I was my own hero getting through this journey. Does that make sense? And not only that, but there's one more really big piece from what Bill shared. There's so much from what Bill shared.
• 22:11
  But one really big piece that was significant to me that I wanna come back to. He said, and, honestly, this piece, I can't remember, and I'm sorry, but I can't remember if Bill said it or if it came from that class that night from John O'Neil, which I think is the case. Yes. I feel like it was John O'Neill in class who said this. But when we're talking about that journey or what survivors have gone through, part of the thing that we need to remember is that it's not just the bad stuff that happened.
• 22:53
  That the bad stuff that happened doesn't matter nearly as much as the good stuff that didn't happen. Yeah. Now this feels more like John O'Neill. So I think this came from class, but let me just say this again. The bad stuff that happened does not matter nearly as much as the good stuff that did not happen.
• 23:23
  Ouch. This stepped all over my toes. And there is truth in this whether you're talking about family of origin, whether you're talking about betrayal trauma or relational trauma or growing up or in provider care that goes wrong or where there's a rupture that does not get repaired. The bad stuff that happened doesn't matter nearly as much as the good stuff that didn't happen. And then and then he adds this.
• 23:54
  It's the lack of good stuff allowed that allowed the bad stuff to happen. Oh my heart. So if people were caring for us well and nurturing us well and in safe relationships with us, all of that goodness is protective against the bad stuff. So when I put that together with what Bill shared, part of what we need to remember when we're trying to find our hero is not just the bad stuff the hero has been up against through initiation. It's the lack of good that was never given as part of the process.
• 24:51
  So it's like he compared it to, like, lord of the rings of, like, let's all we're all with our buddies, and we're gonna go on this journey. We're gonna go through something, and it's the going through the journey that makes them the hero. They're not just heroes because they woke up that day in the Shire and we're like, hey, we're the winners. No. Like, they literally had to go through all of that and all 1,800 endings, like, through all three movies.
• 25:19
  And, like, that journey is epic, and it's the epicness of the journey that makes them heroes. But this is like this is like if they got sent off on the journey and did not have food in their knapsacks, did not have clothes on their bodies, did not have the ring to carry with them, did not like, all the things of privilege that are good protective factors is what keeps us safe from the bad things that happen. So when we talk about abuse or neglect or any kind of relational trauma or developmental trauma, those are bad things that happen. But they can only happen when the good that is supposed to be surrounding us is already missing. And this is critical because I can't tell you how many people, even my own patients who have seen me or come to me or people I talk to in the community or through emails from the podcast, I cannot tell you how many people have said, I don't know how I can have OSDD or DID because I didn't have trauma.
• 26:46
  It was not like that bad. But you guys, it doesn't have to be on Dateline to count as trauma. And it doesn't have to be bad to count as trauma. It could just be missing. And it missing is actually also bad.
• 27:13
  Does that make sense? So we talk about this a little bit in the shame class. We talk about it a little bit in the workbook, But this was a new way to think about it, and it really helps me understand things differently, maybe even better or at least deeper. Because I know even from my work that I do at the disaster sites and war zones, even even there, part of what develops and shows and proves resiliency are all those good things. Like, when you have those good things to support you, that protects you from more of the hard things happening.
• 27:57
  Not that life never just is hard if you get things figured out. Life is hard for everybody. Like, that's part of this experience of mortality. It is part of the hero's journey for the journey to be difficult. Life is hard.
• 28:14
  But it doesn't have to be bad, and it doesn't have to be causal that you are causing the bad. And the more good and protective factors you have, like enough food or enough sleep or social connection, like in the community or those kinds of pieces, the more equipped your hero is to go on that journey. So it's like that's what makes it safe enough to go on the journey because you are not alone, because you're able to meet your own needs, because you're an adult with adult resources, because, yes, the journey is hard, but you have what you need to be okay, and you're not alone on the journey. Does that make sense? Like, I feel like this is so powerful, and I know you've already listened to two episodes, four if you listened to the original one from last year.
• 29:16
  So I don't mean to rehash his whole workshop, and I don't mean to steal, like, a lot of your time resaying the same things. But I wanna hold space and just sit with this for a minute because it is making your own life safe enough that equips the hero for the journey. And that felt powerful enough to come back to and to talk about for just a minute, to sit with and to maybe even experiment with or try. So not only have you found your hero inside you, But, also, what do you need so that you are safe enough and ready and equipped for that journey? You've got this.
• 30:13
  We are already doing it.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing.