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The Power of Part-Time Talent (And Why It Works) · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success of their children, the boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and a bit of a customer find their own version of success.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: We cover it all.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Think of this as coffee with your mate, mixed with an inspiring Talk, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or just survive Mondays.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the show.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Mont podcast.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a returning guest on the podcast, Amanda Henderson, who is the managing director and founder of ThreadHR.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the third time Amanda has been on the podcast.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll put the links to previous podcasts that we've recorded with Amanda in the show notes.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like we've been on a journey with Amanda because we first had you on our podcast back when you were a freelancer and you had a different name as well.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot what your name previously wasn't, I've feel like Yeah, the business was just Amanda Henderson HR, just very simple sole trader setup.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ThreadHR is just over three years old now.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've obviously then we got you back on the podcast when you'd m made your first hire.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you were starting to scale.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have a proper team, it's fully fledged, it's all part-time um workers.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to be talking a little bit about as an employer, how you manage a part-time workforce, why it's a benefit to manage a part-time um workforce and maybe some of the pitfalls as well to consider.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also think it would be really helpful to just get a sense of the journey as well, because you've been going now a few years.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, as any founder entrepreneur knows, there's been ups and downs.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I know there'll be lots of people listening to this that want to take the leap.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And your podcast episode, the first one we ever did with Amanda was basically a 101 on how to be a freelancer.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was out of anywhere, and it's still one of our most downloaded episodes.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're an employee at the moment and maybe thinking about taking the leap into self-employment and considering the freelancer, that is uh definitely, definitely a brilliant podcast to listen to because everyone that listens to it, they just get so many gems and so much advice that it was absolute gold.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we definitely listen to that if you're employed at the moment.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe go back and listen to that and then you can come back and listen to this because you've been on such a journey since.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: I really have, and it's something I've been talking to people about recently where it's only sort of five, it's nearly five years into my self-employment journey in April.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's nearly there, and three years of thread HR.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I'm only just becoming comfortable with saying that I am running a successful business, and it's it's a really odd thing to be comfortable with the fact that it is going quite well, and I find that quite quite scary sometimes if I'm honest.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know what you mean.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So rewind back.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know we've obviously got the episode, so we'll keep this quite brief, but you were employed, and then you obviously made the leap into self-employment.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: What was it that prompted that?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it was a bit of a coming together of factors.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm quite risk averse.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way I would have left a salary uh to become self-employed.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't grow up knowing anyone that was self-employed, it was such an other world.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was on my second maternity leave, which was in sort of the first bit of COVID, I was approached to do some contracts uh to support some businesses.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Really liked that, got a real taste for it then.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was looking at coming back to work, you know, I'd got used to having no money because that's true maternity payers bobbins, as we know.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: The jobs market had changed massively, so it felt like if it didn't work out, you know, it'd be fairly likely to be able to get back into employment.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, HR had had a torrid time during COVID.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was sort of a coming together of all those factors, and now I think I'm probably an employable Elizabeth at this point because I'm just such a great time running my own business.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a sole trader for two and a half years, give or take, and then um I had this vision that at some point it would be more than me.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I describe it as putting on my big girl pants just over three years ago, and became a limited company, fat registered, and took my own name out of the business name because at some point in the future I wanted it to be more than me.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the trigger for that was when both my kids went to school.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So 18 months ago, I finally had a bit of a release valve in my week where you know I was looking after my girls on a Thursday and now I wasn't.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that gave me the confidence and the headspace to think, okay, now's the time.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we started employing people about 18 months ago.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: First hire through yourself, the incredible Hayley came through the Investing in Women Jobs Board, and we're now a team of myself plus five other working mums who are working part-time and just kicking ass at work and at life.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and love that you've had that vision.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you first started, I mean, I think that's it, isn't it?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: When you first become I think I guess for anybody, really, is to have that end point and you know what you're working towards, some sort of goal, and that does steer you, I think.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: It does, and I think there's also the sort of the conscious and the subconscious at play.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's in the second episode I talked about, well, actually, you know, I initially went for a part-time role because I was apprehensive about putting that financial commitment into the business, and it really prompted me to think about offering a different type of way of working.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So Haley started working two hours a day, which worked around her little boy, gave me what I needed in terms of quick turnaround.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, as a working mum and really feeling all those pressures, it was sort of a bit of a conscious and subconscious bit that there was something that could and should be done here to make work different, and it was absolutely working for the business.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So why wouldn't I fly the flag more for working differently?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we might have full-time people in our future, absolutely, but we've built an amazing business and got to a really um, you know, yeah, I'm so proud of it, a place I'm really proud of.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: What hours did people typically work at?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're all part-time, aren't they?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're all part-time, so it's a real mix.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the lady that supports me as my assistant is on three, two and a half hour days throughout the week.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Haley's now on three six hour days.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: We've got Courtney doing 20 hours, and then my people partners in the hospitality space, Alice, um, who's on maternity leave at the moment, and Amanda, they do three days for me, uh, which is a mix of four days and half days throughout the week as needed.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got more confident with offering bigger contracts, but even at a three-day equivalent, we've still got, you know, part that part-time uh option, you know, time full days off to do what you want to do.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then within that, the flexibility and just that real understanding as a team of the reality of being a working mum and what happens when that call comes in from the nursery.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, of course you go and get that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just it's not a big deal, it's just what we do.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: We all get it, we all help each other out, and it's um it's a really lovely culture in the business where they're all really supportive of each other and just get it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: How do you obviously because everyone sounds like they're working different hours and things like that?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do to ensure because I think this is uh a pushback you get from employees, particularly on remote working, is how to create that company culture when everyone, I guess, is doing different things.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do you do that within your business?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean, culture is the output of so many different inputs and factors.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think first and foremost, recruiting the right people, and I recruit in quite a different way.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so people that join the business now don't speak with me initially, they speak with members of my team and have a bit of an online coffee chat around exactly what is the reality of working for ThreadHR and for me?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Recruitment should be two-way.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Our setup isn't going to be for everyone.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we do that, and then when I get to the interview stage, of course, I'm checking on you know the HR skills and knowledge, but actually, can they demonstrate um you know being part of a culture?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do they demonstrate reaching out to their colleagues and you go in the extra mile for people?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of behavioral checks in the recruitment and interview process.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: We use teams like a WhatsApp chat and we talk, work on there, we bounce ideas, but we're also asking, like, God, what's everyone getting?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Fathers for Father's Day, and so on.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we do a lot of celebrations within the team.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So birthdays, babies, we celebrate all of our kids' birthdays and shout out there.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we are all very clear that the expectation is to work our working hours and only those working hours.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So having clarity is something that I'm a little bit obsessed with because that just means we all know where we are and we're all very respectful of what each other are up to, and that builds a really nice culture.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you sorry, how do you do that?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously people are working, some people might be working a Tuesday and someone else is working a Thursday.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the Thursday person, do they contact the Tuesday?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know how I'm just wondering how that works in practice.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think in practice we um we use a spreadsheet to show our normal working patterns and so on.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we we doubt a memory test when people are in, but there just is that understanding that you might not get a reply for 24, 48 hours from some of your colleagues, and that's fine.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not, oh gosh, they haven't got back to me.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it it just works quite nicely in that way.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: We've only ever actually all met in person once, um, which is mad to think about.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um it really is.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we did a Christmas do in November where we all met for the first time, and that was really, really special.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just it was so amazing to look around at this group of women who all just get it's what we do around clarity around what's our purpose, they get their roles in the business, they all understand how it all works for everyone and are all really respectful of that.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then yeah, I think as a leader of the business, and Haley's been with me from the start, you know, we're really setting the tone in terms of the conversations and uh how all that goes.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's all these little bits that just make a big difference to that big culture.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's something that I'm mindful of as we scale for sure.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm also thinking about, you know, what's my role like in the business?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm the one that's had the vision, but how do we keep it going as we get bigger?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, potentially different layers of management.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: But fundamentally, as you know, the importance of getting that recruitment right and asking those questions, like it's so important to get that right match and strengths I've talked about, but also the values.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: What do people, you know, hold dear?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: All those elements make such a difference to that company culture and shouldn't be, you know, undervalued.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Someone can come in the most kick-ass CV in terms of places that they've worked, but if they don't get our values, they don't get us and our way of working, it's always going to be tricky.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're working really hard up front on that, I would say.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what are the benefits, what's the benefit to you then, as an employer, having people working part-time and remotely?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, apart from all the warm, fuzzy feelings that I get when I just talk about my team, and I'm just so proud to be able to support women to be able to do quality part-time work.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we've we absolutely might have, and I hope we do have men in the team in the future for diversity, but first and foremost, that I'm just so proud.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of warm, fuzzy feelings.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: The benefits of me, I mean, Haley, who we hired through the Investing in Women Job Sports, if I hadn't been thinking about part-time work and doing things a bit differently, I wouldn't have met Hailey.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And Haley is so amazing, and I hope she blushes when she hears this.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Her, you know, her approach to work gave me the confidence to scale the business.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if I wasn't thinking about offering work differently, I might never have met her.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And similarly, you know, the other people in my team, I feel very honoured and grateful to be working with them.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'd only been offering full-time, I literally wouldn't have met them because it wouldn't have worked with what they needed from work.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there are so many amazing people out there in the workforce, and to sort of block them out of your potential talent funnel because you've just got a very fixed way of recruiting and hiring, it's just such a shame.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got such an amazing set of you know behaviours, values, skills within the team.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I almost can't bear the thought of not have been able to meet them if I hadn't been open to recruiting and hiring differently.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's I think it's so much easier on attitude, isn't it?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've got two ladies that work for me and we're all part-time, we all work school hours, and they're amazing.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And like within the hours that they work, they honestly go above and beyond.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of think you could have someone full-time, but full-time that's not that bothered and not achieving what they achieve in you know, by three o'clock.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you absolutely could.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I'm aware that I'm very biased here, thinking that all moms kick us, and uh we do, but you're right, you know, these my team come in, get it done.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: We get amazing feedback from clients, our clients still get support throughout the week, so they get their designated people partner, but there's always a backup and the rest of the team to answer questions.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: So our clients are super happy, and I also find that we get we work with clients that we have similar values to us.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so some of my clients, for example, offer enhanced maternity pay and so on in the hospitality space, which is quite unusual.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we're working with businesses that want to do things differently, and I think there's a nice values alignment there as well.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually there pleased to work with a business that is doing things differently as well.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And how is a business owner?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Do you resist the pressure?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I find this very difficult, you know, if they send a request at four in the afternoon, and I'm guessing, you know, you're part, I don't know if you're part-time, but you know, it's difficult, isn't it, when you um own the business?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, how do you balance, I guess, client needs that maybe come after three in the afternoon?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh you know, it's absolutely fine.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: We set out when we work with clients around our ways of working and what they can expect in terms of turnaround time, because all our clients are buying a part-time uh service from us, so we agree turnaround times.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: But if there's anything emergency, which thank goodness doesn't happen too often, you know, I'm on the back phone, um, or there's a second person in the team that is their designated setup sort of backup person.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: As we scale, we're getting I'm getting more mindful and specific to make sure that the part-time hours do fit, making sure that we've got that client coverage in the different spaces as well.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it, you know, it's never been an issue because we can always still service clients, and it's very rare that things need that immediate turnaround.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: But equally, you're saying about people going above and beyond, you know, I'm very clear with my team that I don't expect them to work outside of their working hours.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: We all I'm as part of the induction, I'll make everyone read a book called The Part-Time Puzzle around setting out your boundaries as part-time because they need to hold them with the clients as well.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I know people in my team that for specific situations have logged on after the kids are in bed because they know that actually that would make a big difference for that client to get it back, and I'm not forcing them to do that, I wouldn't expect them to, but I really, of course, love that they do that because you know they want to do a really great job for their client and they know that that need is there, so that does happen on occasion at my team's choice and the right balance, I think.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's give and take, isn't it?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, there's certain things, times when my team might have logged on in the evening after kids have gone to bed, but then if it's the nativity or a school assembly, then they go to that and there's no questions asked.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and actually that's been a learning for me to be comfortable with them, you know, if they are emailing late, not to be like, what are you doing working?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because the flip side of that is exactly that they've taken a bit of time elsewhere, they want to get something done, and that's all part of our ethos as well.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it has been a learning for me as well, not to be so militant on you only work your hours, because that then cuts off the flexibility.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: We need to know that there's no expectation to work beyond their hours, but you know, the flexibility is there when appropriate to make those decisions themselves and to have that autonomy.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you obviously provide HR to hospitality companies.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's your bread and butter.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: In the main, yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: In the main, yeah.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's their attitude generally?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe not specifically your clients, but you know, employers within your sector attitude to part-time?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so about sort of 75-80% of our clients are in the hospitality space.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's where my background is, and it's a really interesting sector.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So part-time workers at a team member level have always been a big part of the sector, not to mention zero-hour workers, which I have my own opinions on.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but part-time working at that hourly level has always been very common for building up the rotors.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's less common is as you get into the managerial positions.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And again, one of my clients, they won't mind me shouting them out.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Popham's bakery is a really good example of a client that is really open to thinking differently.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they had a head chef come back from maternity leave on four days a week.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, five to four days a week doesn't sound an enormous change, but that in itself was huge and very, very much an outlier for the hospitality industry, where there's a very fixed mindset I found, particularly in bigger companies, where no, if you're management, you have to be there full-time.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, the restaurant wasn't open every day of the week.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are key shifts that you need to work on, there are key days where you need to see your stock takes and everything.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, if your Sioux chef, your number two is trained up well and you've got really good cover in terms of holiday, of course, a head chef can work four days a week.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I feel we're getting there, and because of the size businesses we work with, so typically we work with founder-led businesses where they're smaller, they're more dynamic, and they're creating their own path rather than trying to retrofit new ways of working into existing structures.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we're lucky in that respect that we, because we're working with them early doors, we're able to have these conversations about doing things differently and the benefits.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that head chef that came back from maternity leave, you know, she was absolutely amazing.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like Poppins would have been at an absolute loss without her, it would have been such a loss of talent and skill.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you've got to weigh that up, you know, when you're making these decisions to think so narrow-mindedly, because she's always done it this way.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've always known it be done this way.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good enough.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm really up for calling it out and thinking differently.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and whether that's you know, split roles, people are actually doing different things.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, there's a world the work can be done and designed differently, and we just blow and love having those conversations with our clients about it.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's the main reason clients and employers give for not offering flexible working in your experience?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So flexible compared to part as opposed to part time.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, yeah, or I mean the part-time shifts, I guess.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's the main resistance really in general?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, like I say in the main the main we're fairly lucky, but I know from sort of broader experience it is this uh this sort of legacy mindset, I guess you could call it where we've always done it like this, so we're always gonna do it like this, or you know, it's if we do it for one person, is it fair on everyone else?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: That yeah, I think that's quite a lazy, uh, a lazy retort, if I'm honest.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think businesses need any business decision should be weighing up financial factors, people factors, and you know, thinking about the short term versus the long term.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the full time is like I think sometimes people think it's just replacing a piece of a puzzle, but actually you can do it in a different way.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a bit of laziness potentially, and a lack of willingness to think differently because it's just easier to do what we've always done.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's something structurally within that, particularly in the bigger companies, the people that are leading those companies have you know come up through times when hospitality was working 60, 70 hour weeks, you know, 20, 30 years ago.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: The industry's been on a really big change, but there's an element of well, this this is how we've always done it, so that's how we're doing it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the newer founder-led businesses that are coming through that have got that scope, they you know have the financial challenges as well.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: That I talked about thread HR with balancing the job that we need doing versus that financial commitment, but they're also just much more open to doing things differently, and not all the founders that we work with in hospitality come from a hospitality background either.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not necessarily coming from a sort of wedded and embedded way of thinking where they've come up through the ranks, they've worked in marketing or gosh, Formula One, one of my founders was in that space before.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: They've got something that they're passionate about, and they just want to find the best way to make their business run.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have all these legacy issues to overcome.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you and HR know we're talking um about flexible working, but we uh there's a lot in the news about graduates and younger people not being able to find jobs.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I know hospitality is a big employer of young people.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen that, you know, with your experience working in the industry?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, what what's your thoughts for the future, I guess, and the the workforce that's coming up?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, poor hospitality has had such a tough time of it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Even before COVID, Brexit changed the market, the labour market massively.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of our incredible workers that had come from overseas, it was, you know, it wasn't feasible for them to work in the UK anymore, or Brexit made it very difficult.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: COVID, I can't, I mean, I can't believe it was five, six years ago now that all that was happening, but a lot of people left the industry then.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: The magic of hospitality is the people aspects, and you know, there's safety in that around uh AI, which is a big part of a lot of work conversations now.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: AI cannot replace the magic of creating memories and experiences and the service element of hospitality.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where I think it's got a big challenge with attracting um, you know, young people and also smart people, graduates, it's got a massive PR issue.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, a lot of us, if we'd said to our parents, I want to be a pub manager, I want to be a restaurant manager, they'd have probably been like, Do you really?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a special industry.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: You can be in your 20s and running a business that runs a million, sorry, that turns over a million pounds in a year, you can be running 20 people.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's an incredible industry that I would really encourage um graduates and any young people to look at seriously, and it is an industry that the front ends is a bit AI resistant as well.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, we you can't replace that magic.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's actually probably more of a safe bet than a lot of back office roles, for example.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these hands-on um jobs, um that they're gonna be the safe ones in terms of AI, but it's just getting over this sort of PR hump that I think hospitality's got.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people fall into hospitality, they start it as a part-time job, but then it captures their heart because it's so much fun, um, and then they end up staying in it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's very few young people that grow up saying, I want to be a pub manager or restaurant manager, which is pretty sad.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something quite unique to the UK on the continent.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's seen as quite an aspirational.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you look at France, for example, it's treated very different as a profession to how it is over here.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I there's something in that space um that we need to do and that the industry is aware of.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, that's what I would say to young people, come and join us.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an awful lot of fun.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And employ, I was just also the employer side, because obviously you we are hearing, aren't we, a lot of graduates can't find jobs.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, are you saying there is still quite a lot of jobs in the hospitality industry?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is absolutely.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we're seeing we've done quite a bit of recruitment actually for uh again, sort of two, three site businesses that are opening new sites in the next month or so.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: The numbers of applications that we're getting through four team member roles, um, which we've been helping with, hundreds.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a there's a lot of people looking to work.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And again, the company side, you know, when with a new opening, it can certainly be helpful to have people that have got experience that can quickly pick things up when you've got sort of a team of 40-50 to train.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when you get into that business as usual mode, going back to recruiting on does this peop person have the right attitude, the right values, the right strengths, can they build rapport easily?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: The industry needs to be more open as well to bringing those people in and getting them on that hospitality journey.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of us have worked in hospitality as well.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone should.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it should be like Yeah, and even if you don't stay in it, the skills you learn, you know, like customer service, like you say, rapport, stock taking, and there's a lot you learn that you can bring back into any job if you leave that exactly.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think it would be a lot kinder if we all did a year in hospitality.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I did um I worked in America, but did you you know have you heard of Camp America?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I did work America and I worked in a hotel in America and I did housekeeping, uh just such a ground and experience.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I look, you know, and ever I go to a hotel now and just appreciate the housekeepers, and I would have never done that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I'd have looked at them in the same way without having experience doing that job before.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: America's another good example where I think hospitality is a more exalted career than it is here.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's really sad.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what's next for Threat HR then?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we're hiring again.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we I'm I'm quite open-minded about this next hire, which is a nice place to be in and another benefit of being a smaller business.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we are open um and are seeing people for both people partner and a senior people advisor position.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and usually, and this is a bit of a change for us at Thread HR, we are specifying a geography this time.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I just need them to be able to get into London within an hour.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we haven't specified geography before.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: The role's still mostly remote, but there's been a learning over the past 18 months that London is just where all our hospitality clients are.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: People in Birmingham and Manchester, give me a call because I would love to work with you.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I can't, we just haven't got hospitality outside of London at the moment.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the roles are and always will be mostly remote, but that ability to be able to get in, to deliver training, to help with recruitment, to help with tricky disciplinary meetings is important, and it doesn't make sense for anyone to be schlepping hours to do that, it's quite expensive as well.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, we are hiring, and I think I think we'll have another couple of people join the team this year, which poses sort of the next question for me and for my role then.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that look like?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so what's your role gonna be look like then?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: You do less client stuff now, yeah.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So gosh, I think even a year ago I was probably working sort of 120% of my time on client work, so it was a real steam out the ears uh situation this time last year.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and probably before my last hire, yeah, my penultimate hire, I was too late hiring them.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a real challenge as a business owner to get that trade-off between having the money in to pay for them and it not being super stressful that when they land, you're like, oh my god, here's everything.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, off you go.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a real panic handover.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we intentionally hired um the other Amanda in the team ahead of time because we knew we'd got the maternity leave to cover, and we made that a really big handover to support clients, uh, support the person going on maternity and support our new Amanda to come in.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's a bit where I need to have the confidence to hire a bit ahead of time.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been reducing my client work, um, which is intentional, but it's also really hard because I find the client work really interesting.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that'll always be the case.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I meet founders and I'm like, oh my God, you're amazing.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I want to work with them all, but I can't.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've been thinking about, you know, what does this look like?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I will still lead on the business development, but do I start work with them, then hand them over to a people partner?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Does myself and the people partner start with that new client straight away, and then I move away?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there's certainly that I'm very aware that I need to make sure that I've got time for the business development, but also I've got time to manage and lead my team properly.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we really need to make sure that we're walking the walk as much as we're talking the talk.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're saying to clients the importance of performance reviews and conversations and training and all of that.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I better bloom and make sure that I can do that for my team.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so that I'm really, really aware of, but also within that, being really aware of how can I empower my teen to do more of the business development going forward themselves.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been involving them on writing proposals, meeting with prospective clients.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: We want to do more networking.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, there's loads that I want to do, and I need to make sure that I'm coaching my team on those extra bits uh around being part of ThreadHR as well.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: So there's probably a world in a year's time where I'm, you know, I might not be managing all the people partners.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: That might be someone else.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, watch this space, I guess.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you provide HR services to client to employers that maybe don't employ a full-time or a permanent, sorry, HR person themselves.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: There was the budget, wasn't there, like about a year and a half ago now, where the um national insurance changes have happened.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think actually a company like yours is now a more attractive bet for some employees that don't want to employ somebody on a permanent basis, would they rather use a service like you where you're, I guess, taking the risk with employees?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that there is that, and that's certainly our sweet spot.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So typically we are that first uh people hire, and that's either we tend to come in because either something's gone wrong and it needs rectifying and make sure it doesn't happen again, or because the founder has a deep sense that they ought to do something with people, but they don't quite know what.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: So they've got that values alignment and then they're looking for our steer as to how we do it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you're first hiring that sort of function into a team, working with a business like ThreadHR is a great way to do it.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can test it, you're almost trying before you buy in terms of what it feels like for your business.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there is also a bittersweet part of our business that actually our success is kind of making ourselves redundant because we're working with growing businesses, we're showing them what the people function can do, we're demonstrating that value to them in terms of great hiring, great retention, avoiding all the messy stuff, taking all those people worries away that actually, you know, where we say where we say goodbye, we don't say goodbye to clients often, but it's coming because they're growing.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is they're gonna see that need for a part-time or a full-time house person.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the balance will all tip then around um, you know, the the cost.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: We are more expensive, but we're also a lot more flexible.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, we're taking all the risk with the employees and what that looks like.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, does that answer the question?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wonder what the sweet spot is in terms of your client size.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when we first start to work with founder-led businesses in hospitality, they've usually got around two or three sites, and around sort of 80 employees usually have plans to grow.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: In non-hospitality, the sweet spot is around 20 employees, and in the main, they tend to be probably a bit more full-time employees.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: They might have a couple of part-timers in there as well.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: But we are also seeing in the last sort of three or four months, we've had an awful lot of proposals out with bigger businesses that have maybe one or two heads in HR, but actually, they need a bit of extra capacity, so they're doing their sort of growth stretch bit, they don't need that full extra heads, uh, but actually the person that's heading up HR has got way too much on their plate, and we can take employee relations off their hands, for example.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a slightly different offering there because it's not that full people partnering and the full employee life cycle, but it's a really interesting development that I've seen, and you know, it's good for us to have a mix of clients of different sizes as well.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm keen to see what that looks like this year.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, lots of exciting things, and I know your business is doing brilliant stuff.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: You must be so proud.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you could go back to Amanda five years ago, what would you tell her?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: What would I tell her?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'd probably tell her what you know my husband and my friends uh said at the time, which is like, of course you can do this.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I said, I've I felt this real sort of disconnect between what's happening and believing that it's happening, because I never I've never considered it as a possible way to make a living, and I so yeah, I think I would tell her to just sort of back herself a little bit, um which as women we could all probably tell ourselves a little more anyway, like regardless of where we're.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, just to have that confidence that Elizabeth it's all okay, and yeah, I think we talked about it in a previous podcast that we've done, but I had a really squiggly career and mixed qualifications in different functions that actually like it should go quite well.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've you know, I've got experience and qualifications and so on.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: It should go quite well.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: So why does it feel so like does it still feel like that, or do you feel now five years in you're finally is that imposter syndrome going or gone yet?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: It it's getting there.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think sort of this year I'm getting more comfortable.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I went to an event a couple of weeks ago and meeting people for the first time or catching up with people that I hadn't seen for a while to say, you know, I run Thread HR and we do XY in Z, and it's getting there to feel more comfortable, but it it annoys me that it hasn't felt comfortable to date.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think it yeah, I I agree.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like this is the year where you've I I'm similar like amount of time in business than you, and I feel it takes such a long time to get rid of that imposter syndrome.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I feel um yeah, I feel like almost can if I if I'm not stressed about it, then I'm missing something obvious.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: What not stressed about work, you mean?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if I uh have a moment where I'm not stressed about work, then I'm like, oh god, am I being complacent?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: What am I missing?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: What am I not doing?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to move my brain to a space of, no, you've got a really good sense of what needs doing, what's to be done, and also just to protect my own energy levels um and sanity as well.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that perhaps we've not talked about that I'm really mindful of that I need to role model to my team what good working practices look like.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you know, I've no doubt that they all get the pressures of being a founder and so on and so forth, but I'm incredibly mindful that actually, if I've said I'm having a day off, I need to show them that I'm having that day off and that that is okay, and that role modelling bit is really important for them, but there's also that bit about it's really important for me.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: We all need to look after our well-being, whatever we're doing at work.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: We all need time to switch off, and we all need, you know, boundaries, um, you know, around how we're gonna go about things.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm acutely aware of the impact of my actions that my team see as well.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, and I have put my hands up to them around breaking my own rules and you know, this is it for now, but here's when I'm gonna pull it back, and just owning that as well, I think is really, really important.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do to look after your well-being?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Same as I've always done.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: I exercise every other day without fail, even on minimal sleep.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: I find starting the day, just getting a good sweat on, um, is really good for my mental health and um my sanity.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I try and protect my Thursdays.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: So my Thursdays were the days with my girls before they went to school.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I try and protect those and do, you know, if I do juicy work, then it's non-client-facing work, it's stuff that actually I quite enjoy, or getting that time with friends and so on, and getting out.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm very good at making sure I get enough sleep.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, very good.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: I must have it.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm touch with Lucky.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've never had to sort of stay up till midnight trying to get something done for a client.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I need to protect my myself.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I a hundred, I think, especially as you get older, you're like, I need my sleep.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So much so, so much so.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: And have you ever had a coat?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious about your personal development that you've done since.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, a couple of things.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I don't mind sharing that.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a therapist recently to talk some stuff through and sort of work out identity bits around feeling comfortable uh with you know who I am and what I've achieved.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've had ad hoc coaching with the fabulous Jackie Jagger.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: We've done several power hours, and she has also been quite instrumental in my movement to being comfortable around what's possible.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: So she's been amazing.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we are also just about to start work with a lady called Linda who runs a business called Two Crows for specific strategic um insight and oversight with the business.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've got a really good sense of what I need to do, but I need someone, I feel myself, I need someone to be talking things through that's going to be very honest with me.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so lucky that I've got an amazing number of founders and people in my network that could bounce ideas with me.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: But Linda and I have only just got to know each other recently, and I feel like it's a really sensible distance, and her style is that she could absolutely, you know, hold me to account and just give me a slightly different angle on things, if that makes sense.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's something I'm aware of for sure.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: That, you know, I need a bit of support.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: We all need the village.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: We do need the village, whatever that village looks like.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you've got yours.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Amanda, for joining me today.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've loved our conversation as always.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me again.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very lucky.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.