Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Peace vs. Peacekeeping | Understanding the Enneagram Type Nine with Jilann Carlson

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Peace vs. Peacekeeping | Understanding the Enneagram Type Nine with Jilann Carlson · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, over the last two weeks, I have invited you to explore the Enneagram Nines perspective with Deanna Sudom.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: And I even got an opportunity to share one of my wholehearted clients' transformation story, Meredith.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: She shared so beautifully.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: I loved every moment.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Now, today, both Jill Ann and I are going to give you a framework for understanding your specific journey, whether you're in the middle of your story or just at the very beginning.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: So Jillanne is one of our wholehearted coaches and an Enneagram 9 herself.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Jillanne works with quiet leaders, people who lead with presence, not power.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: She does this so beautifully.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: She does this in her own life, day in and day out.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: And she's going to bring today both personal experience and coaching wisdom to this conversation.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: Jillianne, thank you for being here.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to share about this.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where I wanted to begin this conversation is a focus that we did last month, which is the roles that we play in our story.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Now, for the sake of time, we're going to see how much we can cover, how much ground we could cover.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to unpack them.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: And if you're unfamiliar, if you're listening to this the first time and you're thinking the roles that you play in your story, what are you talking about, Amy?
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, just a quick overview.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: We tend to play four, though I like to add a fifth.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And you can hear all about them in February of 2026 episodes.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: It's about the victim, the villain, the hero, the guide, and the sidekick or aka the best friend.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: So all of those episodes in nine minutes or less cover exactly what we're talking about.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: But what I often get is okay, that's great.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: I understand now the victim, the villain, the hero, the guide, but what does it look like for me as a blank type?
2:49
SPEAKER_00: And so every single month we're going to spend some time talking to an Enneagram 9 and a fellow wholehearted coach about this process.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to start there.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Julianne, where do you see Enneagram Nines getting stuck in the victim role?
3:03
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe either people you've worked with or in your own life.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think probably one of the most common places that the nines do is in that conflict piece and they're avoiding conflict.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: And then the feeling of that's when that victim starts coming in because you you just want that conflict avoidance.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: And I like a quick story about me as I remember this one time, pretty young in my Christian walk and young as a leader in the in Christianity, and I remember um a one of my leaders really challenging me to speak up and give my opinion.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And I started doing that.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: I started trying to be very intentional about it, and I every time I did, I felt like I got in trouble.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh man, that would be so hard.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: And I finally just said, this isn't worth it.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I totally I and I think that's pretty easy for a nine to do, like especially when you don't understand that what you're doing, or um, that just maybe I wasn't, maybe I honestly wasn't getting in trouble.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: I was just being asked or challenged a little bit.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: But for me, I was like, I'm getting in trouble.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: This isn't worth it.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm going back to where I was.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And full on in that victim mode.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is not worth me talking about.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: So what a perfect story, Jillianne.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: I've seen this play out again and again.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: I think that this is the work with coaching, the process of coaching where we dial into story moments like this.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Because we don't often realize how much it's informed our current behavior, even if it was 25 years or more.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it definitely impacted me for a long time.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for sharing that.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, kind of in the avoiding conflict.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like in this situation, it meant you just didn't speak up.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: What else might a nine do when it comes to avoiding?
5:19
SPEAKER_00: What what might that behavior look like or even the internal process for that?
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think a lot of the behavior is just going to be agreeing with everybody, you know.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: They're like, oh yeah, you're right.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah, whatever you say, kind of a feel, even if you're not feeling that in the inside.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: But I think that that is a lot of where they go.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Or just not saying anything.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that whole go along to get along thing is very much in that nine wheelhouse easily.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: So just trying everything I can do to avoid pain and conflict.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Please know.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: You used that phrase, Jillian.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: That was exactly what was echoing in my mind.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: The going along to get along.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: I've seen a nine do this and it doesn't go well because at the end it's pushing things down, the avoiding it comes out as a sideways sandwich of eventually.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes that means you end up becoming the villain, and you do it in your relationships.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean you're always a villain.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: There's redemption here.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: That's the whole process of this whole heart and starting.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: But what does it look like then?
6:44
SPEAKER_00: They've gone, they're going along to get along, and then they've had enough.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: How does that show up for a nine?
6:53
SPEAKER_01: They can, they so I've heard.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've been it.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: They can be and whether that's even just in not acting out in some way, or not, or that it's fine.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: I have a really good friend, and she's an eight, and so she's always got lots of ideas, and she's got lots of things for me to do, and all that.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: And she said she would she has said that I'll sit there in this whole conversation go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: And she has no intention of doing what I've just said.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: And in that situation, it was funny, but it got me thinking, like, that is true.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can do that in that very passive aggressive way.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, you might think I'm totally going along with what you're saying.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: But in my head, I have absolutely zero intention of doing what you're wanting me to do.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Zero.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: And so that's one more subtle way, I think.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: But the whole, you know, like it's fine.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: There's so much behind I'm fine that I'm not.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to say, but it just adds the the quick wit back to dismiss and to be able to, again, going back to that avoiding.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Meredith and I talked about the stubbornness of a nine.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think you're articulating what is happening on the outside, but what is going on the inside is digging in your heels, if you will.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: And that stubbornness of I'm not going to be controlled.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to change me.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do this the way I want to.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Nice idea.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: You can do that.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do my own thing.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: Now that we have highlighted some of the not amazing aspects of the nine, which we have to do if we're going to transform, we have to go, hey, oh yeah, the Enneagram can shine the light and Christ brings transformation.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to talk about some of those transformation roles, the hero and then the guide.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: So what does it look like when an Enneagram 9 steps into hero energy, we call it?
9:06
SPEAKER_00: What changes?
9:06
SPEAKER_00: What's the shift there?
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, I think one of the real true turning points, like I understood my that I was a type 9.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: I understood that I didn't like conflict.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: I understood so much about that aspect of it.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And it was like so helpful in understanding.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: But the one part that I didn't really understand when I first learned about it was the core longing of your presence matters.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: And that just didn't make sense to me.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Like I never thought of myself that way, you know.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: I think I matter.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: But I remember one day sharing an opinion about something.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'd been looking at this, sharing an opinion.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what it was about, but I just remember maybe either being ignored or shut down.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, I was like, oh, that's what that means.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: And I saw how I felt in that moment, like what I have to say doesn't matter.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: And as I started to see that showing up in my life, I was able to move past that, like to not have those feelings, because that feeling would shut me down all the time, you know, in other ways, even where I wasn't necessarily being quote shut down.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: So for me personally, especially, and I would say probably for a lot of nines, really, because those other things are so natural, a lot of the other like core motivations are just who you are in a lot of ways.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: I think understanding that longing, that core longing of that you want your presence to matter can really help you step into that hero mode and know that you can make a difference.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I started to become less worried about giving my opinion, sharing my thoughts, stepping into somebody, and less also one thing I also had to learn in that was just because I share my opinion, and I could even have my presence matter and then not take my opinion.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Like that was a step too.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: And so, but I think really understanding that has been so helpful for me to step in in that hero role better.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's even kind of going back to those moments where you were living in the victim mentality.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: And if you could coach your younger self, it would have in those moments been I'm going to exercise being honest and sharing my opinion and telling the truth, no matter what the outcome is, because I believe in my worth and my value and my belovedness.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: And so that is worth alone, rather than thinking, if I do this, it means this is going to happen.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times our hero moments don't exactly turn out like the movie moments do, if you will.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being willing to share your story.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: I think that this is the whole point of it.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: It's through story that we learn.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: And that we can go, uh-oh, yeah, that's what it means for me.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: So I know in the series that we talk about the roles we play, and even through this, we do hopefully get to the point of where we're being the guide.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: And I always like to put this nuance to it.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Just because we're the guide for one thing doesn't often mean we're the guide in everything.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: And just because we become a guide doesn't mean we don't have moments where we're the victim again or are prone to stuck in victim mentality or need to have the hero moment.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: So this is the beauty of it.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: And this is what we often talk about in our collective a lot of times of like, you're the guide, but it's okay that you still need help being the hero in your story.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for a nine to move from the hero to the guide when they're not when it's really about sustaining the journey, not just having moment, if you will.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the key turning points for me in really being able to step into that more was understanding the difference between being a peacekeeper or the nine peacemaker.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: And the peacekeeper is so avoidant of conflict, where the peacemaker, there's gonna be conflict that we have to walk through.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be times when I have to step out and share my voice.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think the more that I have been intentional about that aspect, about keeping peace within me, understanding that as well as in the uh surrounding me, being able to step in that peacemaker role makes it so much easier for me to step out, to be willing to share my thoughts and opinions, and to really start to see that my presence does matter.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: It does for sure.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: And I just want to like celebrate in our collective group, we often do group calls, and there's a lot of us on there.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: And I just love it when you bring your full self.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: And I know you've talked about that too, kind of some of the difference in the years of us working together and your promise to yourself and to me.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: I want to bring more of myself and more of my presence and questions and curiosity and involvement.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: And that makes such a difference.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Now, as we're threading out these roles, some of the behind the scenes elements is identifying, especially as we do the whole hearted journey and the work together, identifying the lies that we believe, the narratives that we're living under.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: And because those narratives, the thoughts going in our head, direct our steps way more often than we understand.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: And so I like to call them the false grip and the voice of love.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: That's how I've outlined them in the whole hearted Enneagram book that's coming out in April.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: I've yay, I'm so excited.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: So I've named a few of those, the false grip, and then how you honestly not only tend to and care for the false grip is not just identify this is not true, but you give a voice of love.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: So it looks different for everybody.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit nuanced, even how they form.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: But for you, what would you say a false grip that you have believed in before and how you've combated that with the voice of love, which is God's truth?
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think you can see probably from a lot of what I share, just that understanding of my presence.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that feeling of what I have to say, does it really matter?
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Um I I struggled with that a lot.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And and when I can bring in that voice of love that says, I do have something to say, I do have something that matters.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: As I've been willing to step into that, it has made a huge difference for me.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen it transform your business as well as you've put more of yourself in the podcast and the material and how you coach with groups and with individuals.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And I think that a key point here of understanding the voice of love is not generic.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: It's not just an affirmation or woo-woo.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about specific promises in the word of God and the truth of who we are as beloved, as God's beloved.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really key because what your your point in the past, whether it was perceived or true, your speaking up got some pushback.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: You will still have situations where you assert your presence and it won't be received the way you want.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: But how we combat the lie that immediately springs up in those moments.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I shouldn't have see you, you know, and we spray ourselves instead of going, wait, no, the Lord says that my voice matters, that I need to bring the truth of what I carry here, which is being a peacemaker or fill in the blank all the things.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really key.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: And I know that's the heartbeat of your work as well.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for sharing some of your story and insight.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: I know we have more here because I want to do, or what I'm offering is questions and answer time from the community, whether it's been on social media or if you're on in my email community and you get those, I am loving getting questions from other people because this is like we want Enneagram for real life.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: The these like big ideas, it's nice, but until we know how to use that, use them in real life, so what, right?
17:45
SPEAKER_00: Um so help us discern some of these.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: You're going to really share from not only your personal perspective, but you've coached a lot of people as well.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: So, how does a nine know that they're actually a nine or they're just conflict adverse or avoid avoidant, if you will?
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Because that that's plenty of us.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would kind of put myself in that category too.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: My husband disagrees with that.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: But it's for different reasons.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of that is looking at your, you know, what are you avoid?
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Why are you avoiding it?
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, is it that inner inner peace that you're trying to keep?
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Or are you, you know, you just don't want the uncomfortable situation?
18:27
SPEAKER_01: There's so it's so much deeper, I think, for the nine uh in that peace world internally.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and so I I think understanding that is really a key in that conflict piece specifically.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it ties into the desire piece because oh, sorry to use the same word meaning different things, but the desire element for us, because to to compare, for instance, as a seven, I avoid conflict because I want everyone to have happiness and fun and having a good time and keep things positive and like let's keep moving to the next thing, let's not hash out the past or deal with this.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: We can just push through for the sake of not being trapped in pain or limited in that moment specifically.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: Those are the two things that come to mind.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: But for a nine, the avoidant or or feeling averse to it is that there's a fear of disconnection or being overlooked or dismissed in that.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: And so I think like piecing those out a little bit, because it's true for all the types.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: We won't go through all the types, but each one could be conflict adverse.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: But it really ties into that core fear and the core desire and all of that.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to know as well, based on your experience, a one B, if you will, question is what how do you see it with the merging?
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Because we hear about nines merging.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: We also know a couple other types do that.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Like the three is more chameleon.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: How do you see the merge versus chameleon impact happen?
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes that's a little bit difficult to parse out, especially for women, I believe.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: I think the chameleon side, they're actually like there's a change, you know.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: They're one time this way, and then another setting a different way.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think the merging is almost this quiet, not disagreeing, but not really agreeing either, depending upon what the situation is.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: So I'll just try to remain as almost as neutral as possible, but not maybe give that off either.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: So let you think almost supplant your answer upon my affability in that moment of like, oh, she must agree with me because she's nodding and smiling.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: The point is you're just not actually disagreeing.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: But I even think about how you dress, where threes dress to fit the situation.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like they know what's expected to be the most successful in the room or or to fit the category that they think they need to be.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Whereas the nine kind of goes to merge and blend in, not really be like everybody, but not stand out.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, is just kind of to be in that like almost how how invisible can they be so they don't disrupt either way.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: And comfort.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: Comfort's kind of a big thing too for nines.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: It says in her big sweater.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's good.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: I am married to a type nine.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: So I loved this one question, and I think you could speak to it as being a type nine spouse, and that is how do I help my Enneagram9 spouse?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Find their voice without pushing too hard, or even on the flip side, regret that they found their voice.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: This is a good question.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the best ways to draw out the best of your type 9 spouse is two things I would say is time, don't expect a quick answer.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And then the second thing is to speak into those things that you want to see them do.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: I have a couple friends in my life that have just spoken that belief into me that makes me like, I can do that.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: I can do that.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think when you experience that with your spouse, that is so life-giving and draws that out of them.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes I think as nines, we believe that we can do those things, but we have so much doubt about it also, with that whole like presence piece getting mixed into that.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And to just hear somebody say, Hear your spouse that you love and that you know loves you say, You can do this.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: It's just that's good.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like just that's great feeling.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: I can do it.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: So it just gives such confidence.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Um to regret that after.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, oh wow.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: I think I think you probably want to.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would almost question like, why do you not want them to speak up?
23:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, yeah, that's good.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we call some things out in people, and then when they actually do it, you're we're like, shoot, I didn't really think you would.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: And right, or you didn't realize how much your systems played into their passivity.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you are gonna ch call your spouse out and up in that, be ready for some change to happen, you know.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And and I think also you're gonna need probably some, depending upon what your type is, as well, to have some patience in maybe hard, some hard conversations that two of you are gonna have to have.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: Because because of that.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, you get used to where we are, and then maybe you don't even know that you're starting to call them out, and all of a sudden they're like speaking up and you're like, wait, hang on, you're not I'm not used to you doing this.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, exactly, exactly.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of marriage books and theories call it the dance and even the cycles that we get into.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: And so if you're used to dancing it a certain way and you you've come to learn the steps and they change the steps on you, it might be natural that you go, oh, wait a minute, did I really want them to do this?
24:47
SPEAKER_00: And yes, you did because we want, and now it's imitation, where do I need to grow in receiving their voice better?
24:54
SPEAKER_00: So I you know, one of the pieces here I felt like would be a good tip of helping their type nine spouse find their voice.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: It requires you to do your own work.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: And but what it is is can you let them know it's safe to disagree?
25:11
SPEAKER_00: That can you invite them into a place where you may not agree and you might even not go along with their idea readily, but that it's welcome here.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: I I that I really I'm doing my work to handle your honesty.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: I want to know what you really think.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: And that in the end requires you to do your own work first, no matter your type.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: But then that is a great gift that you can offer your nine spouse in the process of growth because totally hopefully you're the safest person for them to practice that with.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I want to end with this question here before we wrap up.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: And that is what can other Enneagram types and personalities learn from the nine's ability to bring peace and see all sides?
25:53
SPEAKER_00: Because it's a great superpower.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: What else can someone like me learn from the nine?
25:58
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things that the nine really does well is see other perspectives.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't have to change your perspective, but I think it helps you to think about, you know, even how they might receive something.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Um how this might impact them.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that you're gonna change the decision at all, but I think that just having the thoughts towards others is a really more is a really good thing that the nine does just to even, you know, maybe be able to present it in a little bit more agreeable way or in a way that might be better received.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna change it necessarily, but you'll be able to receive it better because that somebody's gonna know that you thought of them, not just the decision or the idea or the situation.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: I think that nines also I think about what I've learned in my own house is that they can teach us not everything is urgent, and not everything needs to be so intense.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a synergy, a just even a steadiness that a nine can bring when they're doing their work, when they're healthy, that kind of can bring the anxiety or again to use the word intensity down a little bit in a way that can bring calming and simplicity and even the rest factor.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of nine-three marriages, it and it's this combination that makes a lot of sense when you look at the connecting elements to it, but that opposite pull that the nine often has in the three, that the three will go, that has been so good for me to move slower, to release the outcome, to not add another goal to the list, but just continue to work what I've already done.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: I I think that's a really beautiful gift that the nines can offer us as they're doing their work as well.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: That is important.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it becomes not doing as much is not necessarily good if you're in that co-op feeling of it all, right?
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: And that's the shadow side, right?
28:20
SPEAKER_00: That's that peace.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: That element, I keep saying peace, and with the nine, you've got to change up your words here, but it's the element of the nine going too far, swinging too far, and maybe not doing their work and not learning from, hey, I actually need a little bit more drive, vision.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: I need another goal here to keep moving forward.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: And instead of, and it's that's a I think that's a tension that a nine has to continue to do their work in.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Would that be true?
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's it's we can go there without trying.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: It's a natural.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: You find yourself there and you're like, oh shoot, I'm back there.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: I thought I was doing better at this, and here I am.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: So I think, yeah, that we definitely have to be intentional with our own work.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Jillian, that was such a good point to end on because that kind of ties us all together of realizing we will do the work, and then we realize we still need to do more work.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, it's living with intention, it's living with awareness, it's continuing to say yes, to be not just go to sleep to ourselves, like the nine can typically do or go into autopilot, but to consider what is it that is mine to do today?
29:39
SPEAKER_00: How does God want me to respond to this?
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And I really love how that you've pointed this all out so authentically, so practically, that I think will be really relatable to a lot of the nines listening.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate your willingness to share.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: I have found this to be so helpful, both at like the Ennegram framework, even the hero villain.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Looking at those frameworks, I can always go back and be challenged about something else.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's always more an insight and deeper understanding.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's always more work to do until we see Jesus face to face.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: That's you know, that's the whole heart of path.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And I think these tools make it easier, less overwhelming.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Like you can read, look back at, you know, read the information, look back at it, and be able to go, oh, okay, yeah, that's what that's what I'm doing.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: And even writing it down, having a coach, having accountability built in to remind you how far you've come, because we will all get to that point and going, oh, here I'm again.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm just bound to never change.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And those negative lies start creeping in when the truth is, no, we're just here again, and it's another layer, and I'm going a little bit deeper, and there's always more formation and integration that we're invited to do.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, for sure.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: All right, Jillanne, I am so grateful for all that you've shared, what it looks like to move from victim to guide and all the pieces in between.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Where can my friend who goes, oh, she's a ninth like me, or oh, I think I need to learn from her because I know a nine.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Where are all the places that we can find you and and even listen and learn from you?
31:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, well, you can go to my podcast.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's called Strength in Numbers.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I've really focused a lot most recently, especially on helping that quiet leader to walk out in who God's called them to be.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: You can also go to my website.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: It's Geleneagram.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: So J-I-L-Eagram, geleniagram.com.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: And um, I do have social media, but I'll be honest, I'm not great at it.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you are you're doing a lot of things, girl.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: So but you have some free downloads, I believe, on your website as well, specific for those who would be helped by that.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there is a download to help you with conflict in a different type.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I love it because it's the perfect resource for a peacemaker to create.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Friend, if you're listening and you're a nine, I hope that you have heard throughout this that wherever you are in your journey, whether you're feeling unheard or you're struggling with resentment, that you can learn and you are invited here to take brave steps and that you will share your voice and you're exactly where you need to be in your story.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: And we want you to take the lead role in it.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to have it all figured out, just take the next right step for you.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: So hope you've enjoyed listening to this conversation with Jill Ann.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: And I pray that you would go maybe even practice this today, to name one desire aloud today.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's to God, to yourself, to someone you trust, but just one.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: And allow yourself to take up a little space.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Next week, I'm excited.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna hear from Marilyn Van Sill, who is an Enneagram expert, an author, and a type 9 herself.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we're both so excited.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna go even deeper into the Enneagram 9 journey.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Jillian, thank you so much for being here.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed it.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuff point.