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Charlie Worsham · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Bob Lefsetz Podcast. My
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: guest today is Charlie Worsham, who's got a new album,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Once Upon a Second Time Around. Charlie, why an album?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Why now?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: It's the only way I can get what's in my
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: heart out onto the page, Bob. And Once Upon a
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Second Time Around is kind of where I feel like
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting in my life right now. I'm celebrating 20
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: years in Nashville this month, August 2026. And I've been
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: making records since I was literally 13 years old. And
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: it's all I know to do. It's part of my
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: emotional process. And that song, the title track to the record,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: is a song that kind of had its own second act,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: if you will. This is my first independent record. and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I spent 12 years at Warner loving being at a
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: home where I could make records, work with bucket list
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: producers and writers and musicians and learn about making records.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: And at this 20-year mark, it kind of feels like
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: the analogy I've been using is, and I'm the last
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: guy to use sports terms accurately, but at halftime in
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: a football game, you go into the locker room for
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: 15 minutes, you assess how you played the first half
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: of the game, get back out there and play the
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: second half. I'm sort of in that halftime moment. And
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I'm assessing those first 20 years in Nashville, everything that
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: I gleaned from my time and gearing up to go
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: kick off the second half. And I'm also kind of
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: realizing that this, you know, there's a line in the
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: title track. You got to let go of that fairy
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: tale for the next one to begin. And what I've
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: sort of learned to let go of and pick up
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: now is what the original dream was when I was
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: a kid, which is I just love making music. If
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I can wake up every day and be creative and
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: be surrounded by people that challenge me to be better,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: that's the dream. That was what the dream was at 12.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: And of course, now as an adult, I got to
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: figure out how to pay the bills doing that, but
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: that's happening. And so there's a lot of gratitude in
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: this record.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Okay. When you talk about the dreams, Do you mean
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: from a Muppet movie, the famous rich and standard, standard
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: rich and famous contract, which you had, but the MTV
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: 80s and 90s where you're known ubiquitously as opposed to
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: today's muddled world where it's hard to raise your head
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: above and you're just thrilled you can make a living
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: making music?
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I think what I always imagined, so you got to
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: go back to, I grew up in Mississippi, struck out
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: at T-Ball. Gave up on karate once we had to
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: start breaking boards with our bare hands. This is not
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: for me. And music was it, man. My earliest memories
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: are seeing my dad play drums in a local band.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I was hooked on the power music seemed to have
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: on grownups. It made them act like kids. And pretty
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: soon I was taking piano lessons and I became a
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: bluegrass kid. And Vince Gill became a hero. Marty Stewart
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: became a hero. And so the idea... I'd be in
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: the woods behind the house where I grew up with
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: foam headphones on, plugged into a Sony Walkman, listening to
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: a Marty Stewart record with a stick in my hand.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: When my eyes closed, I was on stage with Marty.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: That was the dream. It was never anything past that
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: or past, uh, you know, I'd be sitting cross-legged on
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: the floor, watching the CMA awards and dreaming of being
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: on that stage, either accepting an award or, uh, performing
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: on that stage. And, uh, Those are now both things
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I can say I've done. Coming to Nashville, where I
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: grew up in Mississippi is a five-ish hour drive from Nashville.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: So we made frequent trips here to the Opryland theme park,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: which when I was a kid was still in operation.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And if you go to the theme park, it's right
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: next to the Opry. So you got to end the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: day at the Opry. And that's, I think what I
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: mean when I talk about the dream is at my
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: purest point of grasping music and understanding that it was
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: what I loved, what I was meant to do. That
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: was the dream. That was the seed that was planted.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: And then between that and young adulthood and the experience
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: of signing a record deal and going on a radio tour,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: all these sort of attachments, and you've got a legal background,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: so you know all about the addendums to contracts and things.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: All these additional pieces of the idea got attached and
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: That's great. And I still have a desire to go
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: out and conquer other forms of success. But at the
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: end of the day, I've reached a point in my life,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: especially now being a parent, where I understand just the
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: gift of my daily experience and that for my inner child,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: that deepest desire to make music is something that I
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: get to do every day. Um, so, so that's, I
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: think what I'm talking about, you know, the fame part
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: of it, fame was never a goal for me. I
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: was so fortunate. I was sort of the last to
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: come up before smartphones and YouTube, which I could have
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: used some YouTube guitar videos to learn some of the
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: solos I wanted to learn, you know, but I learned
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: listening to the record and hit and repeat, you know? So, uh,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: so fame was never the point. It was always this
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: sort of necessary result of, being great at what I do.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: It was understood that it was a part of what
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: comes with, air quotes, success or whatever. But it was
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: never the goal, if that makes sense. Okay.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Why an independent this time?
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: That's a great question. I had spent about 12 years
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: on Warner here in Nashville. And the person who signed me,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: a woman named Chris Lacey, at the time that she
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: signed me, was just part of the A & R
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: staff there. And she now runs the Nashville division of Warner.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: And she's always been a dear friend. And if Warner
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: had played by conventional wisdom, I probably should have been
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: at that label for about two or three years. I mean,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: it was obvious I had not recouped, but they kept
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: allowing me to go make records. And they kept doing
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: it in a way where I was only ever encouraged
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: to follow what my heart wanted to make, the music
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: that my heart wanted to make. And they kept putting
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: it out there. They kept trying everything they knew to do.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And so it's not lost on me how long I
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: was able to have a home there and the belief
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: they had in me. And essentially, Chris and I sat
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: down and had a really open and heartfelt conversation a
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: couple years ago. I was getting ready. I had sessions
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: booked on the calendar for what would become the basic
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: tracking for this record. I had songs that my dear friend,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Josh Van Valkenburg is his name, publisher at Sony. My
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: publisher at the time and probably future publisher as well.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: That's a whole other story and podcast at this particular moment.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: But Josh is a dear friend and we had had
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: this meeting where he played me a bunch of songs
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: and we had this batch of tunes. And we had
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: the dates in the studio and I was talking to
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Chris about the plan. And she did what a good
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: friend does, which is just give me the information. And
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: the information was, you know, here's your contract, which I
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: had signed probably the tail end of the like 360
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: deal era, which I haven't looked at a record deal
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: in a long time. So it may still have elements
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: of that, but certainly owning your masters and licensing them
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: was not a part of the conversation when I signed
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: that deal. And I was in the hole ever so much,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I think somewhere around a million dollars probably. And she
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: basically said, look, we love you. She literally told me,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: you can stay here at Warner and we can record
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: a couple songs at a time, but that's kind of
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: all that we can do. And if you need these
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: giant levers pulled, which is the whole point of signing
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: a deal with a major, that's something we can't do
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: unless you've had this viral moment that you're going to
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: have to create for yourself. But here's the thing. If
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: you create that viral moment for yourself in this contract,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: you're starting out at this massive negative number. Whereas if
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: you create that moment for yourself outside of this deal,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: you own your master, you're generating income for yourself from
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: the first spin, essentially. And what she didn't say, but
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: what I understood and was implied there too, At Warner,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I could have a couple songs at a time. I
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: could kind of record what I wanted in terms of
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: how much outside of the deal. And I am an
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: album guy, whether you think you're talking about me as
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: a consumer or me as a creator. And I recognize,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I am under no delusion that asking a fan who
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't know you to consume an entire album, especially in
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: the attention economy we live in today, You're asking them
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: to go in from day one and buy a season ticket.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: And that's not necessarily something a stranger new to you
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: is going to do. I get that. And I also
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: was around when the careers of Eric Church kicked off,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: where he had three albums before he ever had a
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: number one. And people bought in on a song. But
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: once they bought in on a song, they discovered all
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: of this material. They discovered this catalog of music. And
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: so they could get into the season pass. at their
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: own pace. And it helps me. I think you put
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: different kinds of songs on a full-length, an LP, than
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: you do when you're picking a single or when you're
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: putting out an EP. And so it was on my
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: heart to make a full-length record. And after that heartfelt
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: conversation with Chris, I just felt this clarity felt sort
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: of a burden lifted, honestly. And I felt peace. And
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: we made a decision to amicably part ways. And I
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: kept the sessions that were on the calendar and we
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: started making this record. And it's just been a joy.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: It's also, the analogy I love to use as well is,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: like I remember being a high schooler and my parents
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: helped get a car for me when I first got
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: my license. And when somebody gets you a car, you
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: drive it a certain way. When you buy a car
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: with your own money, you treat it a little different.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: And this record is me buying my own car for
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: the first time. And it felt that way, and it
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: still does. So there's a pride there.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I think. Okay. So you paid for it.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: I did. Now, here's another thing from that conversation that
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I don't think Chris will necessarily ever admit to publicly,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: but somewhere in those 12 years, I had signed one
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: of those additions to the contract in which I agreed
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: to take smaller amounts of, oh my Lord, what do
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: you call it? Advanced money. And the last two projects
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: I released on Warner were EPs. And in that conversation,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I was asking, I was like, hey, I'm just curious,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: how do we navigate where we are in this contract
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: as far as my exit? And do we count these
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: two EPs as one LP? I'm just curious. She didn't
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: really say anything. But next thing I know, the advance
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: for that option, what would have been my third EP,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: the last piece of it arrived. And that chunk of
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: money is what bankrolled the first big chapter of making
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: this project. And so I did pay for it with
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: money that came to me and I guess was my money.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: But also there's a lot of grace there. And I'm
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: always grateful to Chris for that kind of a, that's
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: a cool move, you know.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, as opposed to spending their money and going in
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the hole, and if you have overage, you go have
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: a conversation and they give you the money, you're now
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: in control of the money.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a different thing.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: So how did you decide how much you were going
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: to spend and how long you were going to work?
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Because it literally is your money. Right.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the great things about my life to
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: this point in music is, and one of the great
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: benefits of a longer path to that point in the
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: distance for me is that along the way, I have
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: worked as a session player. I've worked as a side musician.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I've not just made my records. I've been a part
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: of making records for lots of others, particularly my peers
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: in the industry that I really admire, that I know
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I can learn a lot from. And I was always
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: taking notes. And so to be able to cut a
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: record with people who I already spend a lot of
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: time with, my fellow friends in the session musician community,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I know what makes a great day for them. And
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I know what they need to be able to execute
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: well and feel good about their performance and operate at
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: their maximum, their peak performance, their efficiency. So the charts
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: are already made. The pace of the record is quick
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: enough that we can be efficient with how we're spending money,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: but also slow enough that we have time to get
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: the creativity out, that we have that process of Let's
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: try it this way. Let's try it that way. And
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I've had all this practice all these years of speaking
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: that language amongst other creatives, whether they're other musicians or
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: songwriters or engineers. I had a co-producer on this record,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Jaron Johnston. So I was in lockstep with all of
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: my collaborators and it allowed me to make a record
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: that I would argue outkicks its coverage, just in terms
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: of dollars spent versus what we got for those dollars spent.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: I also... again, not just the grace of Chris Lacey,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: but my longtime friend, John Osborne, who's half of the
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: duo Brothers Osborne. When I moved to Nashville in 06,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I joined a band and most of the band lived
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: in one house. And John and TJ, his brother, the
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: other half of Brothers Osborne, they lived in the house
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: across the street. And we were in a band together,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: me and John. And John now lives down the road
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: from me. And so John donated some studio time from
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: his studio and Sony Publishing and has a policy where
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: if you're an artist writer on the roster, you can
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: get into their studio and you can do overdubs there
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: free of charge and everything. So, you know, it was
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: just one of those things that it took me 20
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: years to get to a place where I could make
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: a record this particular way. But it just so happened
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: that all of these timelines happened to line up at
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: this moment for me to be able to do this.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So how much did you spend?
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: All in, and I would say this includes... like the
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: photo shoot, not necessarily once the record's done and packaged,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: but just getting a piece of vinyl or a digital
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: image or however you want to describe distribution, something you
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: can distribute. I'd say around 60K is probably what we spent.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Okay. Today, there are ways to record... Unlike yesteryear, you
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: might cut basics in a big room. You might cut,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: you know, parts in your bedroom. Where did you actually
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: cut the record?
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I am very partial to Sound Emporium here in Nashville.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: It's on Belmont Boulevard. It's across the street from the
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: church where I got married. It's next door to Martin's Barbecue,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: which is certainly a plus. And it is chock full
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: of all that great Cowboy Jack Clement lore. And it's
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: also just a great studio. Juanita does a great job
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: managing the place. They take great care of their customers.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: And I love the vibe of the room. I love
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: the sound of the room. And so do all my pals.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: And so we cut at Sound Emporium A. We had
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: two different tracking dates. I think those were both in 2024.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Once we wrapped tracking, all the overdubs took place either
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: at the Sony Publishing Studios there on Music Row, on
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the naked statue end of Music Row, as we say here, Um,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: if you get for people listening, if you come to Nashville, you'll,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: you'll find out about the naked statues soon enough. Um,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: and then John Osborne's place, we cut a lot there.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: His studio is called Pine Box. Now the one or
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: the two exceptions are, we did a bluegrass version of
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: one of the songs. One of the songs I cut
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: two ways and the bluegrass version of that song, it's
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: called Wrap My Porch Around. We cut that at Vince
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Gill's house. Uh, he has a great studio at his
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: house and the Traveling McCurries came over. There's also a
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: song towards the end of the record where, uh, It's
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: just me and a guitar. And it's an old song
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Walker Hayes, the artist from 16 years ago when he
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: was broke and working at Costco wrote. He co-wrote this
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: song called Good Hurt. And I recorded that sitting here
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: in this chair, honestly, probably on this microphone with these
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: headphones while somebody was building a house next door. And
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: I had to wait in between the nail gun and
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: like our daughter was napping across the hall. I had
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: to make sure she wasn't waking up crying. But that's
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: kind of the beautiful part of it, right? Like outside
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: of sound emporium, I didn't really pay a studio fee.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I had to deal in the currency of relationship, which
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: to me is a gift.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. So if you started cutting basics in 2024, when
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: did you finish?
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Well, it took us right up to the 11th hour,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: if you count the last collaboration that took place. So
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: there are three collabs on this project. Going back to
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: that stack of songs I mentioned that my publisher, Josh,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: helped compile for me, that stack of songs came from
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: a year of him listening, both throughout the entire Sony
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: catalog and my catalog. Half the songs he played me
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: that day in a meeting that we had where we
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: narrowed everything down were songs that I had written. A
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: lot of them I kind of had forgotten about or
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: just written off as you know, forever in the dustbin.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: The other half were these outside cuts, one of which
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: was a song Lainey Wilson had co-written. That song is
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: called They Never Do. And that ended up becoming a
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: song she sang on. She featured it in her documentary
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: called Keeping Country Cool. And then the second collaboration, the
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Traveling McCurries, this bluegrass one. And then the last collaboration
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: is a song called Years Go By with Stephen Wilson Jr.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And Stephen, I was actually in Mississippi doing a tour
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: of with the Parchman Band. Parchman is Mississippi's state penitentiary.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: It is the story of American history, all of the good, bad,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: and ugly in one place, 28 square miles of prison,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: formerly cotton plantation, which we should talk about that. That
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: was a transformative week. But while I was down there
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: performing with the Parchman Band, Stephen Wilson Jr. was over
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: at my co-producer, Jaron Johnston's house, singing and playing. That
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: was May of this year. Singing and playing on Years
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Go By, which is a song... Stephen Wilson Jr. and
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I co-wrote. And so we rushed to get all of
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: that turned around and everything else has been done since
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: early 2026. But as busy as Stephen has been and
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: everything else, even though he expressed interest, it just took
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: till the 11th hour to get him on there and
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: get the mixes turned around. and um but we made
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: it happen.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Okay when you originally did the tracking how many of
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the songs were written.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Uh i think everything i think everything was written um
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: this is my first post-covid piece of artistic statement or
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: work or however you want to put it, you know,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: collection of material. And like a lot of people who
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: during COVID weren't able to tour, that extra time, I mean,
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: the one thing you could do is get on the
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: laptop and write a song over Zoom. And so I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: had the benefit of having a larger than usual catalog
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: for the whatever number of years that was. And some
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: of these songs for me go all the way back
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to the late 2000 teens. See, I got married in 2018,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: and some of the songs are from that season of
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: my life. So it's really a record that had a
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: good seven, eight years to incubate.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Okay. How long have you been with Sony Publishing?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: When did I sign there? Probably right around that time,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: probably 2018.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: So who were you with before that? I, my.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: First publishing deal when I moved to town was with
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Chrysalis and it was a band deal. That band I
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: was in with John Osborne. There were six of us
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: in the band. About half of us were really serious
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: about songwriting, but we were all for one, one for all.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: We were all in the same deal together. And it's
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: partly the reason that I exited the band when I
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: did in 2009. And because we had to re-up the contract.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And I went to Berkeley in Boston. I took some
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: music business courses. And I knew if something goes down
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: with this band and we're signed, all six of us,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: to this deal, they can own my publishing individually just
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: like they can collectively. And I didn't want to do that.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: And so I exited that deal. And a guy named
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Arturo Buenahora Jr. was exiting his season as A &
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: R at a label called Show Dog, Toby Keith's label
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: here in Nashville and getting back into publishing, which funny enough, ironically,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: his first publishing gig was at Sony Publishing Nashville and
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: his current company, Little Louder, which was one of my, well,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: let me, I'm giving you my whole history here. After Chrysalis,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: I signed at Olay. Arturo went to work at Olay,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: signed me to Olay, which is another company now. And
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: I was at Olay for four or five years. Then
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Arturo started his own company, Little Louder, which is next
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: door to Sony Publishing on Music Row. And I spent
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: three or four years at Little Louder. And when that ended,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I spent about a year building up a new Schedule
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: A and was starting to talk to another publisher, Josh,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: that guy I keep talking about who was instrumental in
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the creation of this record, He texted me randomly and said, hey,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: would you be willing to write with Frankie Ballard? And
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: if so, who do I call to book you? And
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: I jokingly texted back, kind of in between deals, I
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: guess you text me. And next thing I know, he goes, hey,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: can you come into Sony? This was like the next
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: day or two days later. And this was when Troy
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: was still, I forget Troy's name. He's running Universal now.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. He was at my wedding, Bob. We
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: all know and love him. He's like a senator in Nashville.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: At least you remember he was there, unlike with McCain's
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: daughter was criticized by somebody and she said, you were
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: at my wedding. It'll come back to you.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: It will. It will. And Troy is the best. He
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: was great. And he had the whole staff up in
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: his office and full court press. And so after I
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: walked out of that office and felt seen and appreciated
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: for my particular color of Country Music Crayon and the
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: big crayon box that is Music City, it was a no-brainer.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: It was like, this is where I want to be.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And so that's where I've been ever since.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Okay. You have a whole career on the road. In
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: these publishing deals, let's just call it 20 years, did
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: you need the advances to stay alive? Did you take advances?
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: How did it work?
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: I did take advances and I did kind of need them.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: And they grew with as my life grew and evolved.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Between Little Louder, Arturo's company, and Sony, I did have
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: this epiphany of, man, I don't like the feeling of
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: being dependent on this as an income stream. And as
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: that seed that was planted in my mind in the
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: next six years unfolded, it was nice to have the
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Sony advance. And I'm still in a deal where the
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: options kind of actually... Also, leaving Little Louder had slacked
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: off on fulfilling my obligation, my 12 copyrights each year.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: And I was like, never again. I'm going to always
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: be writing. I'm always going to stay ahead. And boy,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: for the first like five years at Sony, I was
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: turning in three times what I needed to turn in.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And once we started growing our family and now we
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: have two young kids and I got busy on the
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: road again, I was trying to make this record. It
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: finally kind of caught up with me for the first time.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: And I owe Sony about six copyrights right now in
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: the current deal. And my plan, and I knew that
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: was coming. I've known that for the last year or two.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: And they're cool with it. And I'm cool with it.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I'm grateful for that. It's all good. I'm certainly grateful
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: to live in a town with such a great songwriting well,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: where you can just, well, I'm going to go dip
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: my bucket over here because there's a million great songwriters
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: in this town. And it's funny too, the minute this
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: record came out, Bob, the The gates opened again for
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: my writing. It's like, oh, now I'm free. I've got
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: that bandwidth now to start thinking about new songs. This
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: has been delivered. What's next? But I've known now for
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: a couple of years, I don't want to, and I'm
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: fortunate to be able to say, I don't need to
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: depend on a draw from publishing. I want to own
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: my copyrights completely. I've been generously afforded the chance to
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: have co-publishing. Even a little louder, I had co-publishing on
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: songs that I cut, not anything that would be an
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: outside cut. But at Sony, I've had a blanket co-pub.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm interested in an admin deal. And it speaks
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: to what you talked about when I was telling you,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: you drive a car different when you paid for it
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: with your own money. I think you write songs different
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: when the motivation to write them is something other than
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: a check every month. And I like that feeling. I
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: like needing to write a song because my heart has
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: something it needs to get out. And so I feel
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: pretty determined unless really terrible things, sequence of events happen
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: and I really, really need that income stream. I like
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the idea of having an admin deal and going out
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: and making the income for myself.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. But the songs you've written under a co-pub deal,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: when the deal's over, Sony owns them with you. You're
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: never going to get it back.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Unless they recoup or I'm able to buy the catalog
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: and work a deal somehow, yeah. And that's okay. Because
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: that would never stop me from using a song creatively,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: you know, putting it on a record or anything. That's
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: the last thing I think about. But yeah, yeah.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, how many co-writing sessions have you and do you
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: still do?
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: The writing and part of why it's caught up to
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: me in the last couple years is in juggling... The
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: other jobs that I hold in the industry and also
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: trying to be as present a husband and father as
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I can be in an industry where half the time
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: my job is to be in another state or country even.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Songwriting is something that has slipped for me in terms
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: of daily habit and practice. I do maintain a pretty
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: decent journal and I haven't been as diligent about it.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: but I can feel the ideas coming back and welling up.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: And I remember learning this lesson at the end of
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: my first album cycle, my debut record on Warner, I
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: think it was 2012 or 2013, a record called Rubber Band.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I went on a radio tour. I went on back-to-back-to-back tours.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: And that was the first time I was so busy
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: that writing fell by the wayside. And then all of
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: a sudden, everybody's like, well, time to make another record.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: What you got? And I felt like I got kind
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: of caught empty-handed. And I promised myself I would start
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: journaling and filling up morning pages. And the more I
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: did that, the more I realized if I caught myself
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: on a lucky day, if I had that habit, sometimes
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I could just write stream of consciousness. And it's a
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: pretty decent first draft of a verse and chorus. And boy,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: once I get a verse and chorus lyrically, I can
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: sit with that with a guitar, find the right kind
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: of music, the right cadence for it. and really start
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: chipping away at the idea. I'm in the song creation
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: mode at that point. And so right now, while I've
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: got a lot of catching up to do as a writer,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I've got three or four notebooks full of those song starts.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And a lot of them actually rhyme and have a
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: bit of a verse form, chorus form. So I'm not
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: too worried about once I can clear the decks in
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: the next three to six months, I'll go back to
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: the songwriter's gym. Right now, I'm in the musician's gym.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: I'm out there playing in Vince Gill's touring band and
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: It's like lifting with Arnold Schwarzenegger every day. You know,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: at Soundcheck, it's a heavy, heavy bunch of cats in
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: that band. And it's been so good for my chops.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: And that feeds the songwriting. If I feel good about
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: my playing, I'm going to feel more confident trying to
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: come up with a new melody or a riff. But
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: the lyric writing I've always recognized is something that... It
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: always behooved me to have a lyric writing practice. The
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: music always came so naturally. But I really have loved
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: being a student of lyric writing.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, going back to the new album, how did it
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: end up at 1 RPM?
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: You know, I've had a couple of very... What's the word? Um...
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: cosmic breakfast meetings this year. The first one was back
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: in January with a guy named Michael Bryan. I first
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: met Michael Bryan when he was program director at WSIX,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: the radio station here in Nashville, one of the radio
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: stations here in Nashville. And he was one of the
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: good guys. He was like this bright spot in that
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: radio tour season where I was like, man, this guy,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I think listens to bluegrass. I think this guy goes
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: to the station in like I do, you know, he
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: really gets me. And he was playing my records. That
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: was the first time I heard a song of mine
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: on the radio was driving. I could point you to
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the little stretch of Wedgwood. I was going down a
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: hill on Wedgwood Avenue when my song came on the radio,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: 97.9 WSIX. And that's because of Michael Bryan. I had
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: breakfast with Michael January of this year. And I've known
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: him through seasons of life from his program director days
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: to his days at CAA. to his days eventually running,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: being the global head of country music for Apple. He
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: was the first person to get me on a podcasting gig,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: a show called Pickers Radio that I did for Apple
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: that I thoroughly enjoyed. That's a whole other thing we
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: should talk about. I am a student of this right here, man.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I love interviews. It is such a cool format to me.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I'm a fan of Late Night. I'm a fan of...
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I actually was listening to your episode with Ketch Secor
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: because he's a good friend, and it's great. But I
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: had that breakfast with Michael Bryan back in January and
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: he said, you know, I'm ready to start my own company.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I'm interested in becoming a manager. I've been a part
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: of the corporate world for a long time. He had
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: a couple of friends who developed cancer and passed away
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: really young and just kind of had that moment of like, man,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: life is too short not to go chase the thing
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: that fires me up the most. And by the end
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: of that breakfast, it was us looking at each other going,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: because I had been without a manager for about a
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: year at that point. And we were both kind of
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: looking at each other like, are we, is this, I'm
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: just going to tell people you're my manager now. And
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: that's what it's been. Through Michael Bryan, I had a
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: similar breakfast with Mike from 1RPM. And we sat down
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: and we started talking about being dads. We started talking
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: about music we love, concert memories. He knew so many
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: things about the record I had made or was nearly
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: finished making. Um, never once did we have the conversation
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: about like, well, I don't know about this song working
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: in this way or anything like that. It was just like,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I'm a fan dude. And I want you to create.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: And for me, that was the, all I needed to
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: get the gut feeling of like, boy, it feels right.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: You know, cause here's the thing, Bob, it's, it's not
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: just this record, but when I signed with one RPM,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: part of the stipulation was I have to put out
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: more music in the next year. Which, and I love Warner.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: The last thing in the world you're going to hear
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: me do, talking to you or anybody else, is trash Warner.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: They gave me a home. They gave me experience. They
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: gave me faith and showed me belief and respect in
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: what I do musically. I'm forever grateful for that. No
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: bad blood at all. And the hurdle with a massive
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: label like that is how narrow the definition of success
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: becomes because of the way it's structured. Not because of anybody,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: any person there working. And, um, and the hurdle was
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: always trying to get music through all those hoops. And
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: it just felt like it always took so long and
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: it was so agonizing to jump through all the hoops
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: to where the music could actually be recorded and get
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: out into the world. And so often it felt like
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: by the time the music was getting out into the world,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I was already in another season of life. And I
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: just accepted that as a reality and that's okay. You know,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: but with one RPM, I have this feeling of the opposite.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: It's almost like, man, I really got to, I got
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: to hustle and get the next piece of music out.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: And I love that because what it means, especially having
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: seen the industry evolve over the last couple of decades,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: we are in this time of immediacy. And I think
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: people are craving not just authenticity, but they want to know,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: they want what's hot off the presses, man. What were
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: you feeling two weeks ago? What song did you post
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: the day you wrote it? When can I get the
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: recording of it? And I am here for that, man.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I love... that kind of pressure. And I think I
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: thrive under that kind of pressure. And so with 1RPM,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: it was the chance to put more funding behind the
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: promotion of this record. And it was also the opportunity
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: to say, hey, you don't have to sweat or figure
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: out how you're going to pay for the next record.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: You're still going to own it. And oh, by the way,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: you need to get cracking because it needs to come
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: out in the next 12 to 18 months. So I'm
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: just fired up about it. I love Mike's heart. and
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: his expertise. And I'm a student, dude. I'm a lifelong student.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: I will be the first to say I've got so
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: much to learn. I'm just grateful I am still here
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and I get to still learn. And yeah.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you had experience of putting music out through Warner.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: What's the difference between that and putting music out through 1RPM?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Well, there is a more direct, there's less machinery between
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: me and the music industry. or even just the decisions
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: around the music. I have a text thread with my
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: management team, or I'll text Mike at 1 RPM, and
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: everything happens pretty immediately. And it's coming directly from me.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: It's not this cut and drop, but a great example being,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: at Warner, you... You get the record all together. You
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: get through the approvals process. Promo team feels like, okay,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: we got something we can work with over here. A &
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: R feels like this over here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, marketing.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: You have the big expensive photo shoot. You shoot the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: big expensive music video. And all of that takes, I
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: don't know, months and months and months. And then everything's ready.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Everything's loaded up. And then it's this sort of four
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: to six week intense moment of, Let's go. Every bit
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: of our weight's getting thrown at this thing. And then nothing.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: It's all over. Now with 1 RPM, it's more like, hey,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: while you're in Mississippi, we're going to spend a couple
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars. We're going to send a camera person down.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And every day on your way to the next gig,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: hop out of the car, stand next to a creek
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: or on a dirt road or in a cotton field
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: or like sing the Ode to Billy Joe, sing this
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: song off the record. Let's get you eating at... And
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: talking about Spencer's Dairy Cream, this is a local haunt
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: when I was driving through my hometown of Grenada. We
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: stopped there and got cool images and footage. And then
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: literally a week later, let's start putting that content out
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: in the world. And so it's just so much more
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: immediate and it's so much more hands-on, which demands of
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: me my presence, my thought, my heart, my creativity. I
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: think that's healthier for me.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, and what's the promotion like vis-a-vis Warner?
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: You mean now as opposed to with Warner? You know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that so much was, and I
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: don't know that it'll be this way for the kid
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: that moved to town two years ago and is about
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: to sign a record deal next year, right? But for me,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: like radio was the only path and there was no
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: workaround for that. And I think now there's so many
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: ways to reach an audience and to find your specific audience.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: I also think at Warner, this brings up an important dynamic.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: I was in a conversation once with one of the guys,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: the head of promotion, and I'm friends with the guy.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: And if he were here now, I'd give him shit
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: and he'd give me shit right back about it. And
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: we'd laugh and we'd go drink a beer together. But
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I remember saying to him, because one of the big
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: things I did on Radio Tour and on the tour's
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: in those early years at Warner was get my banjo
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: and play a cover of crazy train and people lost
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: their minds. Cause it's, you know, it's crazy train on
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: a banjo. It's, it's, it's an oddity. It's not something
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: you see coming and it's, it's Instagrammable, right? I was
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: so drained from that because I felt like, man, if
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: I'm going to play banjo, I want to play the
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: theme to the Martha White theme song from flattened Scruggs
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: live at Carnegie hall. You know, like I want to
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: play shucking the corn. That's the song I played on
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the Opry when I was 12. I mean, come on, man.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: And I was there with the promotion guy in his
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: office one day. I was just like, man, I'm so
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: tired of playing Crazy Train on banjo. And he said, yeah,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: but you play banjo. Frankie Ballard plays guitar. That's what
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: makes you different. And I'm just like, I don't think
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: that's what makes me different, dude. I never said that
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: out loud, but I was just like, I don't think
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: that's what makes me different, man. Like, put your radio
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: on right now. Like Jesus does. Eric Church is in
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: the top 10. It's about to play on this station.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: That's me playing acoustic. I don't think Frankie Ballard is
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: doing that. And that's not a dig at Frankie. He's
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: a friend. He's a super talented dude. It's just like,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I think that's what makes me different. But there wasn't
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: margin for that conversation because that wasn't how the format worked.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: And being a multi-hyphenate kind of worked against me. Whereas
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: now with 1RPM, they get that on Tuesday, I might
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: be a podcast host with this thing called Mississippi on
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: the Map that explores Mississippi's creative legacy. And I might
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: be interviewing Marty Stewart for that podcast. And then on Wednesday,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I might be back in town and playing on an
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Ella Langley session. And on Thursday, I might be opening
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: a show as me, Charlie, playing my songs. And all
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: of that is part of my persona and my brand.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I hate using the word brand. And all of those
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: are the things that only I can do. There isn't
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: really another person doing that exact thing. And boy, if
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I've learned anything in these last 20 years, it's like, boy,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: if you're going to invest in something, invest in the
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: thing that only you can do. And don't try to
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: truncate what you are to fit the scene in the moment.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And so... That is a big shift, I think, is
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: that the way everything is structured now, and it's not
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: just 1RPM, it's the management team I have right now.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: It's the work I've done. It's my own mindset. And
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: the fact that I've reached a point where I don't
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: have to prove that I'm different as a session player.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've got it. And I'm not trying to
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: look at me thing, but it's like, I've got a
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: CMA on the shelf over there, right? For musician of
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: the year. Like, okay, I did the thing. I rang
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: the bell. Like, I can officially talk about that. on
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the stage where I am playing. And I did just
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: two weeks ago in Manchester in the UK at this
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: club where I played. And it's a part of a
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: bigger thing that is who I am. And there isn't
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: a blueprint for it. There's a great book I have.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: It's all these amazing quotes from Nobel laureates. And the
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: title of the book is from one of the quotes.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: It's called The Impossible Takes Longer. And I'm not trying
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: to compare who I am, what I do to a
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Nobel prize winning work or anything. What I am trying
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: to say is when you're trying to cut your own path,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I do think it just takes a little bit longer.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: So many of my heroes I can point to, that
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: was their journey. I mean, Vince Gill and Marty Stewart
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: are prime examples. But I think I'm just finally deep
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: enough in my own journey where I'm starting to see
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: that and to be able to own it and to
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: be able to reap the benefits of having stayed the course.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: And for a long time, it didn't feel that way.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: To what degree is radio a component of 1RPM' s plan?
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: It's definitely, I would say, something we would welcome with
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: open arms. And I think that it's the kind of
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: thing where we are staying wide-eyed and will know if
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: and when the time is right to pursue that on
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: a larger scale. One of the crazy, awesome things about
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: this point in my life is that I'm not worried
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: about it. That might sound terrible, but I would love
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: to be able to turn on the radio and hear myself.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I just, man, I'm thinking about the next song I'm
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: going to write and who's going to be my co-pilot
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: in the studio and picking up my kid from kindergarten.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: And I think that's healthy for me. Yeah. I think
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: the answer to that question might be different in three
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: months or six months. And that's, that's another beautiful thing
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: is that, you know, this record has been out a
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: few weeks now, but I feel like I'm just getting started.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm just starting to be able to tell
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: the story of this record and that's okay with me.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not, I don't have to try to compete in
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: those sort of zero sum corners of our industry. to
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: feel like I've accomplished what I need to accomplish with
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: this music. And I also, you know, I mean, spending
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: this summer with Vince, he's great about this sort of thing.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: There's also an acceptance for me of like the parts
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: of this that are out of my control. And by
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: no means am I saying I'm not giving this hell,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: giving it all I got. I just, I think in
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: my early twenties and my, all the way to 30,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I really felt like I somehow was supposed
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: to have control over this. Uh, and I should have
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: realized that when my debut record and the song cruise
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: were out within weeks of one another at that point
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: is when I probably should have picked up on the
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: fact that dude, a lot of this is out of
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: your control. Some of it is timing. Some of it
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: is luck. The part I can control my work ethic,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: being authentic, uh, taking care of myself, taking care of
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: the people around me. That's, that's the part I have
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: control over and can focus on.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: So how did you decide to go to Berklee College
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: of Music, not the one in California? And what was
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: your experience there like?
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, it was a magical place. It was Hogwarts for
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: music nerds, dude. All the big fish from the little
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: ponds from around the world in one little corner of Boston. uh,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: how it started, I went to like a five week
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: summer camp between my, I think junior and senior years
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: in high school at Berkeley. And I fell in love
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: with the place and, uh, I had done pretty well.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: I was, I was a good student academically. I enjoyed,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: I loved school. Uh, I never had that moment where
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, I got to do music. There was
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: just never a moment where there was any other plan.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: It just kind of, constantly was like, well, things are
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: pointing in this direction. But going to that summer camp
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: kind of sealed the deal for me. You know, my
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: parents could see the value in it. I could see
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: the excitement of, wait, what? When classes are over, you
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: mean we can sign up for practice time in the
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: studio that has an SSL? I can go put up
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: eight Neumann mics if I want to and see what
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: that sounds like? Like to me, it was just the playground, man.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: And And if I'm going to book a band, I
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: got to call all my buddies. Where do I sign up?
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: And it's also why I chose the production and engineering major.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: And what I loved about Berklee too was a couple
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: of things. I loved going there with what I call
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: a three-chord chip on my shoulder. I was a banjo
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: picking kid who, and to this day, I get excited
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: when I hear a G run on an acoustic guitar.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And if there was one thing that kind of I
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: was taken aback by it was some of the students
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: kind of turning there. And I remember there was a,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: what was it? It was like one of the big concerts.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe we were giving an honorary doctorate to Don Henley
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: or something. But for whatever reason, I was in the
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: house band at this Berkeley event. And one of the
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: songs we played was Hotel California. And the like scholarship,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: you know, super heady jazz playing student was the other
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: guitar player in the band. And he was just like, oh,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: you know, this solo, it's beneath me. And I'm like
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: looking at him like, bro, what? Like, come on, dude. Like,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: let me introduce you to my friends, Leonard Skinner, my man.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Come on. I need you to feel something in your heart, bro.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Take the elevator from here, forehead down to the heart,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: my friend. It's much cooler. Anyway, so I had that
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: three-chord chip on my shoulder. Like, I do want to
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: learn all this stuff, but I never, never want to
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: not be excited by simple things in music because it
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: fires me up. Why would I ever forfeit that feeling?
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: The other thing being, you know, this community of people
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: that I did find that were like me, you know,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: I got to move to Nashville with a dozen pals.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: And I never had this experience of just being all
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: by myself in Nashville, freaking out. What am I going
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: to do? Who am I going to talk to? I
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: had like a pal who had a studio at the
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: end of the street. I had another buddy who was
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: starting to play on sessions and another buddy that wrote
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: songs or that had gigs and needed me to play
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: with them. So it was a community and it was
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: that access to the gear and it was the flexibility
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: of the curriculum. And it was the not just transfer
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: of information from the professors, but this real mentorship with them.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: And it was the spring break Nashville trip. Every spring break,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: about 100 and something Berkeley students would come down to
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Nashville for a week. And we'd be able to sit,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: oddly enough, ironically, in the conference room at Warner and
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: hear from all of these people across just a cross
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: section of the industry. And so Nashville always felt like home.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Berkeley helped make it feel even more like home. And
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: it gave me tools and it gave me more than
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: that community.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Okay. How long did you go for before you dropped out?
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Well, I only owe about six hours of credit. I
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: was there two and a half years. My last two
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: semesters were a summer semester. And then in the fall,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: this would have been the fall of 06, that August
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: as the summer semester wrapped. I drove down, split a
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Penske with a drummer buddy. We drove down to Nashville,
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: stopped at the Kennedy Center along the way, played on
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: the Millennium Stage. Our buddy from Atlanta who had already
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: graduated and was back home in Atlanta flew up and
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: met us. We played at like noon, stayed in DC,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: woke up, drove the rest of the way. And then
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: that fall, I worked it out with my professors to
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: come up once a month and take all of my
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: MP & E senior project courses. I had to make
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: a three song demo as the artist producing myself. And
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: then I had to do another three song demo for
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: another artist and producer in which I served as engineer.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: And I took those last two classes that fall. What
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: I failed to do was complete the last of my
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: core classes. I still have traditional harmony two. I tested
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: out a traditional Harmony 1 and then Counterpoint 1 and 2.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: I kept trying to sign up for Counterpoint, dude. The
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: problem was I couldn't get the teacher I wanted. I'd
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: get bored after the first class and drop out. And
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: then what really happened, I was going to do it
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: my last couple of semesters, but one of my MP &
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: E professor friends said, hey, I'm starting a class. It's
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Speaker Building 101. And literally, we're just going to solder
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: together the motherboards and put together a pair of studio monitors.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: And at the end of this semester, you get your
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: own studio monitors. I'm like, done, you know, goodbye counterpoint.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: So because of those speakers and because of getting the
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: chance and why I moved to Nashville in that August
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: was to join that band. They had a guy that
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: dropped out. I had been coming down to Nashville anyway,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: getting to know folks and they called me to come
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: join the band. It was a built-in publishing deal. It
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: was a built-in place to live. It was a built-in
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: set of all the big brothers I never had having
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: grown up an only child. And so I jumped at
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: the chance, the school and my professors were cool with it. Uh,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I just never got around to the last of those, uh,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: core classes.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Well, like on the album, Bruce Springsteen's mother says you
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: can always go back in the back of your mind. Hey,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to finish it one day or are you done? Yeah.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: Uh, that's an open-ended question. At this point, there's a
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: little bit of stubbornness of, uh, wanting to hold out
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: for the honorary doctorate. Uh, uh, I bet as my
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: children approach that age, it'll reframe this for me. As
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: of right now, I'm leaning towards letting it ride. Yeah,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: but that might change.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Okay. You're a boy from Mississippi and you're in Boston. Yeah.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: What's the difference between Boston and Mississippi?
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: It's the best culture shock you could hope for. It's... Well,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: I grew up traveling. I'm the son of a banker
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: and an educator, my mom being a teacher, my dad
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: having made his career as a banker. And something they
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: believed in and did for me was by the time
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: I left home, I had been to Europe half a
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: dozen times. I remember the first time I went across
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: the pond to tour, I think this was 2016 maybe.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: And I was with a bunch of other country artists
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: from that class, that era. And They were all just
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: kind of like, where's the McDonald's? And I'm like, let's
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: get on the tube. We could go across town. East
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: London's got amazing Indian food. Let's go. It was familiar
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: to me. You wouldn't expect a guy from Mississippi to
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: be worldly in that sense. But because of this gift
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: of showing me the world that my parents gave me, Boston,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: it still was culture shock, but it wasn't this.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like that in that sense of– I embraced
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to walk across the city on Saturdays and
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: go to the Italian market in the North End and
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: get prosciutto and some pecorino and bring it home. And so, yeah,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Boston was kind of great. And it was also a chance–
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: this is a common theme for Mississippi writers. Willie Morris,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: who within the borders of Mississippi is like a pope.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: This guy lay in state in the rotunda of the
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Mississippi State Capitol, and really only governors up to that
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: point had done that. Outside of Mississippi's borders, I don't
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: know if Willie Morris is as well known, though he
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: certainly wrote some amazing books that were acclaimed. But he
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: had a memoir called North Toward Home, and I've read
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: that book twice now, once as a teenager and once
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: in the last couple years. And it reminded me of
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: a something that is important, I think, especially for Mississippians
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: in particular, which is you need to go be an
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: expat to fully appreciate being a Mississippian, especially if you're
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: a white dude. It's something to be in a town
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: like Boston and say, hey, I'm Charlie, I'm from Mississippi,
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: and to see that look on people's eyes. Because obviously,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: Mississippi has a history, and there can be an easy assumption.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: There can be a story one tells themself about this
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: person they've just met and them being from Mississippi. And
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: so I think it was important for me to get
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: beyond the borders of my home state to better appreciate
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: it and to better appreciate what my role can be
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: in the ongoing story of Mississippi. And it made coming
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: back to Mississippi more meaningful, especially in really recent years
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: through the work of this podcast I host. I've spent
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: more time in more corners of Mississippi that I've always
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: wanted to visit and never have. And I think it's
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: an important time in our story as a nation. You
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: can look to Mississippi, man. It's all there. All the information,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: all the original time around all this stuff happened in Mississippi.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: And we can learn a lot from the story of Mississippi,
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: and that's my goal. And I know I'm talking more
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: about things outside music here, but especially as a Mississippian,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: our music and our pain are intricately woven together. And,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't get Muddy Waters without the story
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: of sharecropping and without the story of the Great Migration.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: And I mean, why were the blues electrified? Well, it's
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: different when you're singing on your front porch than in
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: a club in Bronzeville on the south side of Chicago.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: You got to plug that guitar in to make it
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: loud enough to hear for people to dance to. And
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: so I take being a Mississippian really seriously. And it's
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: deeply embedded in my musical DNA.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: So the town you're from in Mississippi, what is that
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: like relative to Mississippi at large?
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Grenada, Mississippi, it's 100 miles south of Memphis, Tennessee, which
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: we kind of claim. And 100 miles north of Jackson,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: which is dead center in the state and the state's capital.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: So we're sort of the center of the northern half
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: of the state. If you drive west 20 minutes from
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: the house I grew up in, you exit the Pine Belt,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: the Pine Hills, and you enter the eastern edge of
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: the Delta. And it's flat from that point to the
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Mississippi River. Grenada is a county of probably 20,000 and growing.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: And it's a medium-sized town. I graduated in 2004, Grenada
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: High School. I think our class was 185 students graduating class.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: It's probably bigger now. Uh, and it was a great
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: place to grow up. And it was a place where, uh,
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: I put in my first 10,000 hours playing in cover
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: bands and bars and playing weddings. And, you know, before
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: that it was bluegrass bands and playing the Kiwanis club
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: and playing the nursing home and literally playing like the
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: men's clothing section at the Walmart in Grenada. Uh, and
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: it was a community that raised me. I had a
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: piano teacher there in town. That was my first experience
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: of learning music theory. And I don't really play, I
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: wouldn't call myself a pianist today, but I visualize music
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: on the piano keys. And I can read music if
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I need to because of those lessons. I understood delayed
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: gratification because of Cindy Dugan, my piano teacher. I understood
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: technique and posture and the importance of that from those
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: piano lessons. So it's a community that raised me.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Okay. In Grenada, They're more black people than white people.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: So tell me about race in Mississippi.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was so blessed. I think about my high
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: school and it was what I hope my own children
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: will experience as they grow up in their primary education years.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: It was a perfectly accurate cross section of our town
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: to be in Grenada High School. It was 50-50 black-white,
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: all of the rungs of the financial ladder there. And
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I was also fortunate to not be like the coolest
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: kid or to be the one that everybody picked on.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: I kind of lived in the middle, kind of had
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: my own thing going. And I had great teachers. Don't
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: even get me started. I think we should be taking
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: care of our teachers better. better than we are, uh,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: because that's, that's the, uh, root system for all the
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: good things to come in, our world, in our nation
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: and whatever. But I lucked out on timing, Bob, in
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: terms of when and where I came of age in
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Grenada and in school. And I was fortunate to have
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: parents who understand social justice, who understand what it means
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: to be from Mississippi and white. And now as an
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: adult in these last couple of years, primarily spurred on
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: by this podcast that I've mentioned, but I've been fortunate
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: to educate myself even more in recent years. I think
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: about the Parchman tour I did and all the books
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: I've read, whether you're talking about Murley Evers' For Us
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: to Living, which is incredible. And I would argue required
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: reading for every American upon becoming an adult. or the
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: William Winter, who he was a great governor for us.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: Mississippi was the last state in the nation to have
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: universal kindergarten. And William Winter made it happen just three
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: years before I was born. Thank you, William Winter. And
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: he's a Grenada dude. He grew up in Grenada. And
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: reading his life story, you know, he was running for
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: office in the 60s. I mean, dude, I grew up
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: 45 minutes from Oxford, Mississippi, where James Meredith, uh, basically
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: desegregated the schools where there were the riots. And the
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: backup quarterback on the football team that year, that was
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: also the winningest year in Ole Miss football history. And
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: the backup quarterback was a guy named Jim Weatherly, who
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: wrote a song called Midnight Train to Georgia. So yeah, man,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: I don't even remember the question. Now you just got
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: me on my Mississippi stump speech.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just explain. You said a lot of
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: great stuff. You know, the recent news is the Mississippi
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: miracle where the improvement in reading scores amongst students. But
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: if one grew up in the North at this late date,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: they tend to look down on the South and primarily
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Alabama and Mississippi. They're seen as poor rural states where
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: the whites lord over the blacks. But that's from a distance.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: You actually grew up there and continue to have contact there.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: So I'm looking for a firsthand viewpoint.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd point to my buddy, Marty Stewart. He grew
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: up in Philadelphia. Now, if you want to talk about
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: having to wake up every day and set foot in
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: the world under the worst of headlines, look up Philadelphia, Mississippi,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: and the Freedom Summer in the 60s. That's the three
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: civil rights workers that were murdered. And Marty Stewart was
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: growing up in Philadelphia at that time. If you go
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: to Philadelphia today, what you're going to find is a
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: red carpet rolled out for you, no matter who you are.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: And you're going to find the Congress of Country Music,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: this amazing city block of just pure Mississippi magic. Marty
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: was at some benefit show with B.B. King. And B.B. said,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: come sit with me. And he said, Marty, look over
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: at my place in Indianola. We got the Blues Museum.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: We got that story told. You know, look up at Tupelo.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: Look at Elvis Presley's birthplace. We got that story told.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Rock and roll, blues. What else has Mississippi got a
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: claim to? Lord, Jimmy Rogers, the father of country music,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: he said, we need a spiritual home for country music
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: in Mississippi. Well, Marty got to work, and that is
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: now the Congress of Country Music. Beautiful concert space, the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: Ellis Theater, soon-to-be museum and education center. And, of course,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Marty's collection, I think, is something like 20% of the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: Country Music Hall of Fame's collection. of artifacts and music history.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: And where I'm going with this is that I performed
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: on that stage with the Parchman Band just a couple
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: months ago. Where I'm going with this is if you
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: get to Mississippi and you see it up close for yourself,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: you get a different story. And I think that it
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: is important that we not forget the harder parts of
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: our story. I am by no means saying that we
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: should skip over that part of the story. What I
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: also would say and encourage folks to think about is Yes,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: many of the villains in the story are from Mississippi.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Byron D. LeBeckwith, right? It's there. But you know who else?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: All the other people from Mississippi. You've got James Meredith.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: You've got Medgar Evers. Goodness, his name is escaping me.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: But with Emmett Till, you know, Emmett Till was abducted
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: from his uncle's house in the Mississippi Delta in 1955. 55? 55?
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: It's been 71 years. It's been 71 years. Yeah, 1955.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: We're coming up on the anniversary this weekend of that.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: His cousin, I think he was 12. Goodness, I should
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: know his name. We should have his face on money
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: for crying out loud. That 12-year-old boy who had to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: go into hiding. You know who picked him up on
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: the side of the road? The money road, which is
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: also the road Fannie Lou Hamer walked, which is a
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: road that was paved by... Oh Lord, they just took
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: down the ugly statue of this dude, the guy that
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: founded the KKK. Anyway, we don't need to remember his name.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Where I'm going with this is that 12-year-old kid got
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: on a witness stand in the courthouse in Tallahatchie County
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: and he testified under the threat of his life and terrorism,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: you know? And that's a Mississippian, man. And that's a hero.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: And Fannie Lou Hamer, Mississippian, absolute hero, uh, The heroes
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: of the story are also often from Mississippi. And so
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: I feel like we should give Mississippi a fair shake
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: and tell the entire story. And we got a lot
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: of good people from our state. And that continues to
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: this day. People doing good work, deliberate work. Parchman's a
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: great example. Even just a few years ago, man, it
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: was terrible conditions at Parchman. Really, really horrific stuff. And
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: the new leadership there has turned things around and they
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: believe in the dignity of the men incarcerated there. You know,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: the men in that parchment band, they travel the state
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: and they get on a stage and they testify to
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: their life and they show people that they are more
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: than the stripes they wear. And so I'm really proud
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: to be from Mississippi and proud to be a part
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: of something that I think is this future Mississippi is
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: creating for itself. And I think that it's a great
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: example of what our whole country can be and what
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: we could take note from. You know, don't ignore the pain.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: Don't ignore the hard parts. And also, man, look at
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: these heroes, look at the helpers, because they're a part
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: of that story too.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: Okay. Why did you take piano lessons?
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Well, striking out at, I was trying all the things,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: you know, ran the wrong way down the soccer field,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: struck out at t-ball, didn't want to punch lumber with
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: my bare hand. it was just a curiosity, but that's
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: what got me in the door. And then the minute
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: I sat down on that piano bench, I was hooked.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: It just, it was the thing that clicked. It made sense.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: I think it connected me to those early memories I had.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: I remember my dad's cover band coming over to our
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: house and rehearsing. They played the country club in town
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: and that afternoon they all came over and they were
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: just kind of jamming on the back porch. And I
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: think I said it earlier, but it was like, Okay,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: this thing starts, the sound, this music. All of a sudden,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: the grownups, they start acting like kids. They start having fun.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: They're not so serious. So that was in my mind.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: And then I sit at that piano bench and I
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: see that I can create that sound for myself. And
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: so I was off to the races. The why that
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: got me in was I was just a kid trying
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: all the things.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: So how long did you take piano lessons?
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: I stuck with piano lessons through my high school years.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: I maybe dropped off after junior year. And those last
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: couple of years, I was driving up to Oxford to
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: take lessons from one of the professors at Ole Miss.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: And I could tell he wasn't as patient as my teacher, Ms. Dugan,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: was all those years because she was encouraging me and
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: making sure I learned to read music. But she didn't
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: reprimand me if I came in and said, hey, hey.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: I heard this song on the radio and I picked
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: it out by ear. She made room for both. And
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: he was in the business of helping prepare musicians for
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: a different world, the symphony world or whatever it is.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: And so he maybe didn't understand. The other beautiful thing
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: I think about is the Grenada Municipal Library where we
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: had the piano recitals. I was probably the only kid
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: in America at a piano recital who finished his song
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: on piano, walked over, picked up a banjo and played
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: an Earl Scruggs tune. In the same suit, you know,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: with the same pomp and circumstance. And so hats off
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: to Cindy Dugan, you know, for honoring that. It's a
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: big reason that I stuck with it.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you're taking piano lessons. At what point do
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: you learn another instrument?
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: We came up to Nashville for one of those many
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: trips to Opryland theme park. And Mike Snyder, Grand Ole
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Opry member, had a steady gig at Opryland. He played
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: at the New Orleans bandstand. I can't remember the exact times,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: but probably like three or four times a day, you know.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: And he had these songs, dude. He played banjo and
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: he sang this song about his wife was, you know,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: after him to buy her a fur coat and he
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: didn't have the money and he was scared to steal.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: And the next thing you know is he hits German
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: Shepherd on the interstate and he takes the hide from
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: the German Shepherd and makes a fur coat for his
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: wife out of it. And then the last line of
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: the song is, she's been real depressed since I backed
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: out over the cat, but I think she's going to
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: smile real big when I give her that new fur hat.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: And dude, you got a nine-year-old kid in the crowd.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: I hear that. It's over. That whole drive up to Nashville,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: I was begging my parents for a guitar. Well, after
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: Mike Snyder and the fur coat song, can I get
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: a banjo? And they found me a banjo, $ 50 Sears
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: and Roebuck banjo. Sherman Clark, I think his name was,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: guy in Jackson they found, sold the banjo to me.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: I started taking lessons. Pretty soon he was like, look,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not really a banjo teacher. You need a proper teacher.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: Here's this guy, Larry Wallace. He plays for Jimmy Martin,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Martin being the king of bluegrass, Larry being a
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: 10 year veteran of Jimmy's band, the Sunny Mountain Boys.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: So by second grade, every Wednesday night, my mom would
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: take me Home from school, we load up the car
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: and we drive to Starkville, about an hour, 15-minute drive.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: And take lessons with Larry, drive back home. And those
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: lessons continued for a good long while, probably through seventh,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: eighth grade, something like that. And eventually got around to
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: getting a guitar, you know.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: The big problem with kids taking music lessons is they
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: don't practice. So you go to the lesson... Were you
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: infatuated playing? What was it like?
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: Another great lesson in delayed gratification, like with Cindy Dugan,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Larry Wallace, my banjo teacher, I bet we had four
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: or five lessons before I ever played a note on
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: the banjo. He was demonstrating. He was playing records for me.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: He was talking about the physics of playing banjo. You
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: want to hit the string with the right amount of
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: intensity to get as much tone as you can out
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: of it, as much volume without sacrificing tone for volume.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: You don't want, you know, if this is the string
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: and this is the pick, you don't want it to
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: hit like this. You want it to hit like this.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: And I mean, this was literally the lesson, man, for
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: like weeks. And, you know, here's, listen to Earl Scruggs
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: playing banjo. Okay, listen to that groove and tone, timing,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: playing in tune. Oddly enough, things that 20 years later,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: as I started to get into session world, yeah, it
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: ain't your hot licks. It's, can you play in time?
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Can you play with good tone? Can you play in tune?
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: Can you play tastefully? You know, and then of course,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: can you also be a good hang? But it was
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: the fundamentals. And I just, man, I was just eaten
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: up with it. I, especially once I got over that
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: hump of like being able to control my right hand
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: enough to get a decent roll going. And then songs
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: became like levels on video games. You know, if I could,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: you know, I had this, I wish I had it right.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: I probably do have it within arm's reach here if
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: I dug around. But Earl Scruggs and the five string banjo,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: it's probably out of print, but you can find it online.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: And it's just this perfect, you know, if you want
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: to play Scruggs style banjo, that's the place to start.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: And so every time I could get a song mastered
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: from that book, from that catalog, it was like I'd,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: you know, entered a new world in Super Mario Brothers.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: And also my mom being an educator, she understood a
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: lot about the psychology of educating a young mind. And
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: I remember I used to get a dollar for every
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: hour I practiced. That certainly helped. That didn't hurt. But
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: I just loved it. I loved it.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, so when did you pick up the guitar?
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: I got a guitar as a gift from my grandparents.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Cheap little $ 200 Alvarez Acoustic in fifth grade, whatever birthday
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: that was. And at the time, a record that had
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: just come out, we had it on CD, was George
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: Jones's Bradley Barnes sessions. And it was one of those
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: where it was George paired with, uh, you know, uh,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: Emmylou Harris, George paired with Tammy Wynette's again, singing golden
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: ring all these years later, Keith Richards did a song on, uh,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: on that. And a great side story of that one
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: is as Keith is leaving the studio, George is like,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: tell me again who that guy is. You know, he's like,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: he's Keith Richards. He's in the Rolling Stones. Like, Oh,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: are they, are they big? He's like, Yeah, George, they're big,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: so Keith's saying bye, and George is like, good luck
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: with your band. But I had that on CD, and
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: all the songs were three chords. And so the banjo
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: and the guitar, they share the D, G, and B string.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: And the E string's just two half tones up on
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: a guitar from what the banjo is. So I could
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: figure out the basic chords, and I had enough basic
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: technique from banjo that I could sit with that CD
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: and learn– to change from G to C to D
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: or A to E until I got fast enough to
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: keep up with the record. And that's where guitar started. Now,
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: I still really, really, really wanted an electric guitar. Did
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: I have an amplifier? No. Did I have an electric guitar? No.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: I had a PVPA system that I was doing my
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: little banjo gigs with. And I had money from my
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: banjo gigs and another trip to Nashville on the books.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: So we come to Nashville, I have $ 500 saved And
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: I had my banjo. We go to Gruen Guitars. At
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: the time, it was down on Lower Broadway where Dierks
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Bentley's Whiskey Row is now, just down the hill from
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: the Ramen. And walk into Gruen's with $ 500. I start
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: looking at the guitars, looking at the price tags. I
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: wanted a Telecaster. All my heroes played Tellys, Vince and
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: Marty and whatnot. There it was. Tobacco Burst, 80s Telly,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: Maple Neck. $ 600. $ 600. So I get my banjo. I
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: go out on the sidewalk right in front of Gruen's.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: And at that time, I could average about 50 bucks
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: an hour playing for tips. So I just started playing.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: I had my banjo case open. After about two hours,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: I counted up my dollars. I had $ 100. Walked back
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: into Gruen's. Here it is, $ 600. The last hundred is
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: literal singles and quarters, maybe a couple fives in there.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: And I walked out with that Telecaster. And that was
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: my first electric guitar. And so I went home, plugged
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: it into the PVPA system. And that's when I started
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: to graduate to B.B. King Records and Leonard Skinner Records.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: Okay. If you go on Wikipedia, it seems like you're
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: kind of a prodigy at banjo. You play on the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: Grand Ole Opry. They have some resolution in the government.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: You know, sometimes... What was going on? Was this hype
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: or were you like a phenom?
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I... I struggle to embrace the
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: prodigy term, but that's probably because I'm a parent of
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: young kids now. And I see things like that through
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: the lens of what kind of pressure and anxiety it
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: can create in terms of expectations. And maybe that's part
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: of why I'm like, no, I don't know. But you know,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: I was good, man. I was good. I was putting
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: in my time. And, uh, you know, part of it
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: was making this record in Nashville. Um, so let me
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: back up, I guess I'm 10 years old. Uh, My teacher,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: Larry Wallace, had a gig with his boss, Jimmy Martin,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: the Bluegrass Nights at the Ryman series, which continue to
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: this day. And it's like Tuesday nights in the summer
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: at the Ryman. And it's all these greats of bluegrass
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: that headline the shows. Well, Jimmy Martin was headlining. We
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: came to Nashville to catch the show. Jimmy's bus is
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: parked outside the Ryman. It's called Widowmaker. It's one of
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: his big songs. Widowmaker, Widowmaker. About an 18-wheeler guy that
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: Spares the life of a family and runs off a
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: cliff and dies, you know, whatever. Just your typical country
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: music bluegrass song, if you will. But right up my
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: 10-year-old alley at the time, too. I thought every kid
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: loved songs about guys driving an 18-wheeler off the cliff.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: But Larry Wallace knew this. He knew if he got
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: me on the bus in the front lounge after soundcheck
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: to play Will the Circle Be Unbroken for Jimmy, that
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: I might get an invitation to join him because that
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: was going to be the encore song. Well, sure enough,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: that's what happened. Dude, I didn't have a shirt with
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: a collar on the trip. So we go down to
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: the Hard Rock Cafe. It's Margaritaville now. I buy a
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: Hard Rock Cafe button-up shirt. I have jorts on and Timberlands.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: And there I am playing on the encore on the
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Ryman Auditorium stage with the King of Bluegrass. And we
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: made the cover of the Tennessean. And I look now
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: and I see that photo over my other shoulder behind
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: me is Tom T. Hall, which is bonkers. So that's
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: my point of no return. I keep up with it.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: I start playing contests. Well, turns out Mike Snyder, the
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: guy at Opryland, the whole reason I play banjo, he's
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: from Smithville, Tennessee, which is home of the Junior National
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: Banjo Championship. And you have to be 12 or under. Well,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: this is my last time entering because I'm 12. Go
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: up to Smithville, enter the contest. I win it. In
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: another moment where one of the grownups in my life
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: kind of understood, I bet if we do this, you know,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: so I'll write a letter to Mike Snyder Thank you
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: so much. You inspired me to play banjo. I just
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: won this competition in your hometown. Grateful for you. Be
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: tuning in on the Opry. By the way, that's always
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: been a dream of mine. Here's my elbow. Next thing
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: we know, we're having supper in the kitchen. Phone rings.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: It's Mike Snyder. Hey, I want to come up to Nashville. Charlie,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: I want to come play the Opry. Well, there we go.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: There I am driving up, about to play the Opry,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: 12 years old. And Mike invites me into the Opry circle.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: And I get introduced not just to Mike, but to
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: his band. Well, his mandolin player at the time, Bobby Clark,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: happened to live, I think, in Madison, Tennessee, just north
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: of me here in East Nashville. Bobby had a two-inch
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: tape machine in his spare bedroom and a couple microphones.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: And this is the beauty of having parents who supported
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: this dream of mine. They knew the value of this.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: They booked me a few days at Bobby Clark's home studio. Now, Bob,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: this band is Bobby Clark, Charlie Cushman. These are guys
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: that people call on to this day to play. Blake Williams,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: same thing. He played upright bass. But then This guy
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: named Bobby Hicks on fiddle. Bobby Hicks played with Bill Monroe.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: He was a master of the double and triple stops
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: on the fiddle. Just an absolute straight king on the fiddle.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: On Dobro, we had Uncle Josh Graves who played in
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: Flattened Scruggs. I mean, this dude is like legend, legend, legend.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: And a young Brian Sutton, who at the time was
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: the new kid in town, starting to play on records.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: You know, he played the, I remember at the time
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: I was enamored with Brian because he played the acoustic
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: solo on the Chick's song, Sin Wagon. Just ripping, you know.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: Of course, now Brian is like the guy in session
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: world and beyond. And he's the guy that Billy Strings
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: calls to tell people at Bridgestone like, yo, I'm walking
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: to the side here. Y'all need to know about Brian Sutton.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: That's Brian Sutton. But at the time he was new
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: to town. That's the band. And then me at 13
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: at this point. And that's my point of no return
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: being a gear nerd. That was the reason, that moment
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: is the reason I chose an MP & E career
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: at Berklee. I'm remembering this now. sorry if I'm getting
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: ahead of myself here, but between that experience, making that
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: record and being at Berkeley, I looked into the fact
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: that Norbert Putnam married a Grenada girl. And in my
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: high school years, Norbert Putnam, who produced Margaritaville, who produced
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: Joan Baez, who had quad studios here in Nashville, who, uh,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: Lorde played bass on Elvis records. You know, this guy,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: original Muscle Shoals cat, uh, He had that Mackie D8B system,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: one of those early digital systems, a 24-track system. It
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: looked like a heavy-duty VHS you could slip in there.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: And by that time, I was playing in bar bands
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: and making pretty good money. I could clean up. If
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: we had a Friday and Saturday gig, I might have $ 400.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: And he essentially sold me that gear for nothing, next
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: to nothing. And next thing I know, I've got that
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: gear in my bedroom. And so all during high school,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: I'm recording stuff. Uh, and of course now it's not
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: just banjo, it's electric guitar. And I'm, well, I'm running
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: out of instrumentals. I'm running out of fiddle tunes. So
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: I got to start writing songs, I guess. Got to
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: start singing on songs, I guess. And that's what got
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: me singing along with the bar band gig. That's what
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: got me writing songs. Uh, and then of course, at
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: that point it was kind of, there was no other
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: choice for me, but to stay on this path.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you have all these experiences, uh, The traditional
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: path is you meet people in high school and you
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: play in cover bands. What was your experience in high
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: school playing music in groups?
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: I was 95% of the time in a band with
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: guys in their 40s, grownups. And we were playing bars
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: throughout North Mississippi, as far up as Memphis, and then
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: the more that we got sort of known, we would
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: play more like country club gigs or weddings or, you know, uh,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But I mean, man, we were
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: playing four 45 minute sets, you know, 10 to two, uh,
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: place called spectators, which was like gravel lot in the
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: back door on the other end of the gravel lot
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: was the levy on the other end of the levy
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: was Mississippi river, you know, it's Greenville, Mississippi. And, uh,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: you walk in, When in 10 minutes you smell like
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: a cigarette, you know, because it's smoking in bars still.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: But one of my favorite memories from those days was
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: playing at Spectators in particular. I look out in the
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: crowd and on the dance floor, it's my biology teacher.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: She was mortified. You know, I was like, this is awesome,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: you know. But yeah, what a great education. That was...
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: The introduction of, okay, dude, you've been in your bedroom,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: you've been in rehearsal spaces, performing is different. There's this
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: other piece of the equation, the audience. You're going to
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: keep the dance floor full? How are you going to
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: do that? And so, I mean, God, man, we used
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: to do, and thankfully I had these guys who indulged me.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: So we would do medleys of things. We'd do like
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: a Michael Jackson medley, and I took golf gloves and
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: I bedazzled them. And we all had like the fingers
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: cut out of these golf gloves and we'd all put
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: on one sparkly glove and we'd do our Michael Jackson
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: medley and do the thing. And we had beards and
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: we'd do this easy top thing. And so just learning
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: the art of entertainment and in some cases learning what
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: not to do the hard way maybe, but there's no
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: other way to do it, right? I mean, you can
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: be the most rehearsed band in history and you're still
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: not cruising altitude until gig number seven, just because you
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: can't rehearse without an audience and cover all your bases.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: You just can't. You got to have that X factor.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: You got to go live. There's a reason when people
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: play on a late night show, they kind of have
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: to get it right, right? You understand on a psychological
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: level that there isn't a second take. And so that
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: was where that element of all of this sort of
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: introduced itself to me.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: Okay. You moved to Nashville permanently. to join this band
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: signed to Chrysalis that you ultimately leave. How long are
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: you in that band? Do you think this is going
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: to go and what's your plan once you exit? Yeah.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, so when that, it was a three year stretch
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: and it began within a couple of days of my
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: 21st birthday. And so 21 to 23, 24 in there. Uh,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: And similar thing, that was the next level of bar,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: more than a bar band, but we would get in
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: a passenger van and we traveled to the West Coast
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: and back playing gigs. And some nights were great and
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: some nights weren't great.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: What kind of music was it?
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: It was country music. It was modern country music at
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: the time and we were writing songs of our own.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: And we were playing covers, but not indiscriminately. We weren't just...
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: super thirsty. I'll say that, you know, we weren't like
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: playing covers cause we were super thirsty just for any
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: kind of applause at any cost. We were, we were
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: trying to incorporate familiar songs alongside the songs that we
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: were working on and writing. And, and, uh, and we
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: had a thing, man, you know, I played a lot
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: of mandolin and banjo and acoustic through an amplifier and
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: next to me on stage, uh, it was a musician
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: named Josh Matheny, who's, who's now in demand session player.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: playing Dobro and lap steel through an amplifier. We were
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: singing harmonies that were influenced and informed by a lot
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: of our bluegrass roots. But we were rocking out and
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: we were playing Love in an Elevator, covering Aerosmith. I mean,
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: if we're going to cover something, we're going to cover
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: Love in an Elevator, you know? And we had the
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: drums and the bass and the thing. And it was
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: just this great first time around. I mean, it's funny,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: this album's called Once Upon a Second Time Around. I
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: had so many first time arounds. That without them, I
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: couldn't be at this point in my life and literally
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: have a second time around. And it's not lost on
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: me how many people don't get the second time around.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I know I've worked to earn this
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: second time around, but it's also a product of grace
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: and a product of trust and respect and faith in
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: me that this community has poured into me all these years.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: And that band was instrumental in getting me started off.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: I think that I loosely had this concept of being...
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: the guy, being the solo guy, when I was in
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: college and all the way up to that point, I
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: had also always been in bands. So I never had
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: a problem sharing the stage because that was the whole point.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: It was, let's make music.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: It's fun.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: Now, the band was this opportunity that felt like a no-brainer. Like, dude,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: you're going to literally, before you even move to town,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: you're going to be in a pub deal, get a
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: chance to write with Nashville writers. Because at that point,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: I had been writing a bit on my own and
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: had studied writing formally, especially Pat Patterson at Berklee, just
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: an absolute legend, and was performing songs as a solo
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: artist myself. But to move to Nashville and be in
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: a band, have a place to stay, have a pub deal,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: have gigs, felt like a huge leg up. And I
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: was the youngest guy in the band. The band was
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: already cooking. They'd been going for a year or two already.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: So I jumped into it and looking back, I think
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: there was probably a quiet voice in the back of
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: my head going, hey, you sure you don't want to
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: be the guy? But they had a guy, they had
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: a singer. And it's interesting that towards the end of
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: those three years, there was one particular song I had
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: written that we were recording and I had a higher
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: register voice than our singer. And the song felt better
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: on the neck of a guitar and the higher key
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: sounded better. I wanted to sing the song. And I
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: went to the guy that was sort of our producer,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: you know, slash almost felt like a parole officer at
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: that point because it turned out to be a great
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: example of what not to do in the industry, which
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: those are important too, right? And I got into it
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: with the guy about like, dude, I want to sing
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: this song. Why can't I sing the 11th track? I mean, hell,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: we're a band. We all sing. And he kind of
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: read me the riot actions, this whole thing. It's so
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: funny too. I love, I don't often get to tell
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: this story if I haven't even, I don't know if
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: I've told this story publicly, but it's a Velvet Taco now,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: just north of Five Points in East Nashville. But at
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: the time it was a local joint called Calypso Cafe.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: That guy, we had had the fight in person. It
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: was the next day. I'm outside Calypso Cafe. I'm going
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: to go in and pick up my food. Dude calls me,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: the band's producer. And this is at this point, I'm
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: starting to say, I don't know if I want to
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: sign this pub deal. I think I might have to,
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: you know, I'd love to still be in the band.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: Just can't sign the deal, bro. Like I've taken music
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: business classes. I know too much. I'm not going to
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: risk my future if something happens with this band. But
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: I'm committed to the band, just not in this pub deal.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: And he's coming after me and he's going to just,
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: you're a speck of dust in this town. There's people
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: lined up around the block to replace you. You don't
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: know how lucky you are kind of a thing. And
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: it just felt shitty, to be honest. And to a
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: young impressionable mind, it really messed with my confidence too,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: if I'm being honest. Here's the beautiful part. We had
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: a residency. And here's the other part of that season.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: We had a residency at 12th and Porter here in town.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: Great club. Vince Gill's always been my North Star. A
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: couple of weeks later, I'm out of the band. Their
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: first gig without me, Vince Gill was the special guest.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: I'm crushed, man. My girlfriend at the time went to
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: the show, broke my heart again that way. And of course,
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: now it's like, well, hell, Vince just invited me to
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: be a member of the Opry. I think it's all cool,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: you know? But going back to that Calypso Cafe and
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: standing outside of there, a year and a half later
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: from leaving that band, I play a showcase at the
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: same club, 12th and Porter. I go to Calypso Cafe
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: that night to pick up my food. Guy named John Esposito,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: who was at my last show with King Billy. He
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: had just moved to town to take over Warner and
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: we were starting to play showcases. And that's where I
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: met Espo was at a King Billy show, at my
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: last King Billy show. Well, I'm outside that same Calypso Cafe.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: I get a call from Espo. Hey, we really love you.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: We'd love for you to be a part of the
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: Warner family. So I'm looking up going, all right, God,
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: I get it. I see you. It was this beautiful
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: moment of redemption. And if anything, the point of telling
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: you that story, Bob, is there's some young dreamer who's
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: going to listen to this, who's taking notes from you
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: and listening to your interviews. They should take that to heart,
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: because it's so important to, I think... Maintain your confidence,
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: not cockiness, but remember who you are. Remember who you're
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: meant to be. Remember what got you here. Remember why
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: you're here. And don't ever let anybody discount that.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: Okay. Ultimately, do you jump or are you pushed? And
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: what's your situation? Do you have any money? What's your plan? Yeah.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: So this was November of 09. We had a meeting
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: at our lawyer's office. And it's funny, he's now my lawyer.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: And we're talking through as a band with our lawyer,
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: like this deal. And they're trying to talk me into
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: signing the contract. And I just am going, man, I
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: can't do it. I just like, if there's any way
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: for me to be in this band and not be
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: in this contract, I'm in. I'm as committed to this
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: band as ever. I'm just not like, gosh, there's this idea.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: And you would be able to tell me, is it
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: jointly and solely? Is that the legal term? So I
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: was like- Jointly and individually, whatever.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: Yes. Okay.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: Jointly and individually. I'm like, gosh, those three words, that's
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: the hangup. Like I'm in this band, I'm committed, but
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: if something happens and I catch any kind of momentum-
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: They're going to snatch me up and I'm locked into
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: these terms. And let's be honest, they suck. Like we
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: all had to go play for other people as their
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: backup band to pay the bills. And dude, this is
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: when rent for me was like 350 bucks a month
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: in Nashville, a block from Music Row. That house is
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: now Airbnb that lists for like two grand a night.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: That's what five guys paid in a month to stay
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: in that house. And this is, of course, before the renovation.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know how they even were able to renovate
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: the house, to be honest. But it was not that
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: I was pushed out. I volunteered my way out. But
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: there were a lot of hurt feelings because, I mean,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: we were brothers. And it was a weird season because
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: all my best friends and what, oddly enough, like the
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: next day, the band had a two-night run in Oklahoma
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: and they were getting in the van to go. And
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: they got in the van, went to Oklahoma. And over
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: that weekend, I cleared all my stuff out. I'd find
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: a place to stay. And I didn't really have a
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: bunch of money, but I also didn't have a high overhead.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: And I had started to play some shows of my
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: own and I had met the guy Arturo. And Arturo
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: was telling me right after this happened, like, hey, I'm
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: still with this label, but I'm about to be out.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: I'm about to go back into publishing. If you can
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: just hold on for a few months, like I'm going
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: to get you in a pub deal. We'll get you
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: some money. Just hold on, man. I want to work
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: with you. And, uh, so I held on and by
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: that next March I'd signed or April, cause I was
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: at the Key West Songwriters Festival when I signed my deal. Uh, so,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: you know, five, six months later and, uh, I was
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: in a pub deal. Now in the interim, we had
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: worked some with like Chuck Ainley had worked on our,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: our record, the record that we made that was never
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: quite all the way out in the world. Uh, and
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: Chuck noticed my playing. I had been introduced to Frank Liddell,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: a guy named Matthew Miller at the time was working
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: for Frank Liddell and was producing this young kid named
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: Brent Cobb who was making demos. I would play on
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: the occasional demo. There was one guy that made demos
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: for people from out of town and he worked out
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: of the spare room in a print shop on Whitebridge
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: Road and the songs were terrible, but I needed it.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: Not that we should get into AI, but there's an
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: argument for the pitfalls of AI. It's like, don't rob
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: future A-list musicians of the 10 years of playing on
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: shitty songs that they need to do to be ready
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: for an A-list gig. But one of our friends was
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Tom Bukovac because at the time he had just married
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: Sarah Buxton and we were Sarah's backup band. We'd gig
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: with her, open for her and then back her up.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: And like Buk was trying to get rid of a
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: big screen TV and we were like, we'll take it.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: And so as I leave the band, I'm calling guys
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: like Buk, I'm calling anybody I know, just saying, hey,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: I'm out of work. I know I'm not the best
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: session player, but I'm eager to learn. My buddy, Eric Massey,
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: who had moved down from Berkeley with me. So I
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: was just hitting on my friends and just enough came in,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: just enough work to get me through. And then I
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: was in that pub deal at Olay and things started
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: to work out.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: Okay. When do you start going on the road as
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: a gun for hire?
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: Well, the first things I did post-band were I got
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: a call to open for Taylor Swift. Turns out Arturo
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: had signed Taylor to her first pub deal and was
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: an early champion of hers. And she was going out
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: on the Speak Now tour and she made a point
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: for her first of three openers to be like a
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: who's who of people who needed a leg up. And
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: looking back, it might've been that some of the people
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: connected with all those artists, somebody they worked with maybe
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: had a relationship in her story like Arturo did in
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: mine and hers. And so all of a sudden, I
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: had a pub deal and I had 10 dates on
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: the Speak Now tour. And it paid really well. I
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: got to ride on one of the buses, so I
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: didn't have a big overhead. And because I was on
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: that tour, I started to get noticed by the labels.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: And there was enough momentum at that point to warrant...
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: We were making demos, and the demos we made would
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: eventually become the first half of what was my debut
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: record at Warner Rubber Band. And so I had music
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: passing up and down Music Row, had those showcases, signed
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: the deal. And then... was a season of pure just
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: solo guy. I was playing Charlie shows, whether it was
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: a headline thing or an opening gig or whatever. If
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: I was in the studio, I was making my record.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: After Rubber Band, somewhere between Rubber Band and that next record,
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: session work crept back in. But it wasn't until, I
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: think Vince Gill took me out, took Ashley Monroe out
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: and took his daughter, Jenny, uh, Jenny Van Valkenburg or
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: Jenny Gill, uh, as she stage name, actually, it's not
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: a stage name. It's her given name, but you know
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying? Uh, and he did this cool little,
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: like three week run of shows where we were all
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: in Vince's band. And it was like a variety show,
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: like the old Opry traveling shows, you know, Vince was
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: the anchor, but like, then we turned to Ashley and
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: she'd do a few songs. They turned to me and
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: I do a few songs. And that was the introduction
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: for me. A couple of years later, Vince called and
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: gave me a bonafide spot in the band. And oddly enough,
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: That would have been 2018, maybe 2019. I was starting
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: to date my now wife. We were getting married. We
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: got married in September of 2018. And right at that time,
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: I was still playing gigs of my own, but I
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: had the opportunity to go Old Crow and catch Secor
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: Called and offer me a spot to play in Old
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: Crow's touring band. And I took it. And it just
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: so happened within a week, Vince called, offered me the
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: chance to be in his band. I looked at the
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: tour schedules. There was only one weekend that overlapped. Vince
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 2: was cool with me missing it. So I honored the
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: first obligation, which was Old Crow. And I remember I
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: got like two hours of sleep in a hotel in
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: Savannah and flew to meet Old Crow somewhere. But that
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: year I did double duty and that was the year
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: of side musicianship. And not long after that COVID hit
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: and the side musician work... obviously nobody was touring, it shifted.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: I did the thing I did when I left the
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: band back in 2009, started calling all my session friends,
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: you know, hey, excuse me, I know nobody's touring. I'd
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: love a chance to play on sessions if you could
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: use me. And so the phone started ringing. And did
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of work with my pal Jaron Johnston, which
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: was part of us becoming closer friends and him co-producing
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: my last project for Warner, which was an EP called Compadres.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: And of course this record, Once Upon a Second Time Around,
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: the full length. And session work picked up and I
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: started playing on bigger records. I started saying no more. Like, man,
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: isn't that a lesson? Like you start out, you got
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: to say yes to everything. Even if the question is,
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: can you play mandolin? And you kind of can't like
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: say yes. And then between then and the gig, learn
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: to play mandolin. Eventually, you're afforded the chance to say no.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: And so I've sort of earned this season of life
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: where I can say no. And now if I'm playing
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: on a session, it's usually a really cool record, cool
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: master session. And so during COVID is when my session
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: career really blossomed. And as we all came out of COVID,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: I was putting out my swan song at Warner, even
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: though I didn't know that's what it was at the time.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: And everything was leading up to this moment.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. You're talking about playing sessions. In the old days,
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: there were people who worked every day, maybe three sessions
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: a day. How many sessions did you work?
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: I never got to where for weeks and weeks on end,
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: I was playing every day on a session, but I
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: would be involved in three records in four to six weeks.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: And That might mean a one-day session for one of
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: those records, and it might be camping out for five
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: days on another. It was a bit sporadic, and then
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: at times it would get more concentrated. I should mention
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: early on in the Olay days, I did have the opportunity.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: My first time on a real master session was Eric
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: Church's chief record. And Arturo was a longtime part of
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: Eric's team. They're executive produced and published records. unofficially maybe
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: A & R Eric's records, you know, and they got
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 2: me in. This was back when Jay Joyce had the
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: headlamp and was working out of his basement in Bellmead,
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: which if I look back now and I think about, man,
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: talk about your average Bellmead resident and Jay Joyce, he's
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: more at home in East Nashville, you know, where he
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: is now. But anyway, that was my first taste of
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: playing on a big song, on a big record. And
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: that gave me that opportunity to sort of have cred.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: You know, the next person to call was Dierks Bentley.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: And so throughout the 2000 teens, I might play on
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: one big session in a year, you know, it'd be
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: Eric and then it'd be Dierks. And then because of those,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: the groundwork was laid to be more involved. But it's
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: always been a juggling act. You know, it's always been,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: you know, well, these six months I'm playing more on records.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: And then these next six months I'm writing for my
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: own record or making my own record, or I get
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: a tour go out with Brandy Clark or whatever it is,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: or Old Crow for a year. And between the first
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: time I played in Vince's band, from that moment through
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: the end of COVID, I would say that was the
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: fire that I walked through that helped me understand that
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: I could let go. As the title track of this
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: record says, you got to let go of that fairytale
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: for the next one to begin. That allowed me to
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: let go of a fairy tale that I had bought
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: into when I first signed at Warner and start to
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: embrace the idea that I could create my own path,
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: even if it didn't exist yet. And it helped me
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: kind of regain some confidence and not be afraid to
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: zig where everybody else was zagging.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: Okay. You know, your record just came out. You're promoting
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: it now. But if somebody calls you up to do
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: a tour in the future, you're going to say what?
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: Well... the goal is that, uh, this weekend I'll wrap
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: this Vince tour, uh, in Memphis, Tennessee too, which is awesome.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: I love Memphis. Uh, and ideally that's gonna, and it's bittersweet, honestly,
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: cause I love it. But the idea would be, that'll
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: be my last touring gig for someone else. Uh, I'm
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: currently co-producing a project with John Osborne, uh, and really
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: excited about that. I think we're getting close to being
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: wrapped into being able to start talking about it, which
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: we can't quite do yet. Uh, but I love producing
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: and I hope that the next year brings more of that. Uh,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: I would say yes to the session. Um, and I
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: would hopefully say no to the tour. Uh, and hopefully
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: it's because I'm so busy, uh, channeling that main character
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: energy with this record and what comes after it, uh,
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: that I don't have the time for it and that
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: I'm also in a position financially that I don't need it.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: But even as I say that, boy, do I appreciate
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: those opportunities. I love it. Because like I think I
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: might've said right at the top, man, it's like the
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: ultimate goal for me was always just, I want to
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: be playing music. I want to be creative. And one
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 2: of the things I learned, you know, I spent four
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: years with Dierks Bentley that wrapped up at the end
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: of last year, about this time last year. And something
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: I learned in those four years with Dierks was, Not
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: everything about that part of the dream coming true is
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: ideal for me. If you've got to be Dierks Bentley
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: or Miranda Lambert or right now Ella Langley, you actually
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: really have to fight hard to carve out enough time
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: to be creative. A good chunk of your schedule is promoting,
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: is business, is keeping a couple dozen people employed. And
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: not that I wouldn't embrace the opportunity if that success
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: started to come my way or that I'm not aiming
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: for success like that. But I am wide-eyed and clear-eyed
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: about the fact that with that type of success comes
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: its own set of challenges. And right now, part of
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: the sweet spot that I'm in is the common thread
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: in everything I do is it's creativity forward. More often
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: than not, the phone is ringing because I am needed
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: to play an instrument, to write a song, to sing
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: a song, to perform with someone. And so I really
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: love that. And it's hard to think of giving that
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: up should certain things transpire.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: And how about work-life balance?
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, that's an ongoing struggle. And something I really
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: love about being a parent is that it's this great
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: do-over every day. It's a chance to examine my own
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: childhood and look at the generational blessings that I was
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: given and keep those going, pass them down. And then
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: also a chance to like edit the script a little
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: bit and put my own feelings about and thoughts about
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: it into the generations. And, you know, our son, Gabe,
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: he's five and a kindergartner now. And he's come to
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: a couple of gigs now, a couple of soundchecks at least.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: He's been to a Dierks soundcheck. He's been on Dierks' bus.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: He talks about getting out He wants to go camping
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: and fishing, but he also wants to go ride the
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: bus for the weekend. Has nothing to do with the
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: chart position of Dierks' song or my song or anything
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: like that. It's just like it was for me as
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: a child. It's, this is cool. Grownups acting like kids.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: We kind of live in this adventurous life and there's
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: loud noises and it's awesome. And I embrace where I
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: can invite my family into this part of my life
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: in that way. And I embrace the opportunity to practice,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: you know, after this interview, I'm going to go downstairs
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: about halfway through. I heard, uh, my wife come in
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: the door, uh, and our son come home and it'll
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 2: be suppertime. And if I wake up tomorrow and I'm
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: proud of myself, it'll be because I'll leave this in
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: this room until they go to bed. And that's a struggle, but, uh,
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: it's a challenge I accept and, and I'm, I'm here
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: for it. And, uh, Yeah, I don't write as much
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: as I would like to say I'm writing. Sometimes I
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: show up for a gig less prepared than I'd like
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: to be. And sometimes I'm parenting on less sleep than
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: I'd like to have had, or I got a shorter
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 2: fuse than I'd like to have had, but that's the
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: great beauty in repair. It ain't about the rip, it's
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: about the repair. And it's just, dude, it's active. It's
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 2: 24 seven right now. And I'm just in the trenches
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: of all of that and learning. And hopefully if I
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: speak to you in a year, It's a new story
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: and I've learned all these things and I can look
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: back at where I am now and see growth from
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: then till future me or from now till future me.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a struggle, man. It definitely is a challenge.
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, Charlie, I wish you all the luck with this
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: album and your solo career. You're quite the raconteur. I
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: can see that you're a good hang, which gives you
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: a good advantage in the music world. Thanks so much
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: for talking to my audience.
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: Bob, thank you. And thank you for the information you
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: put out into the world. Because for me, and I
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: may have said it earlier, but, you know, I kind
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: of just barely missed like having the resource that is YouTube,
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: but having resources like this. And so I think about,
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: you know, the next crop of folks that are going
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: to come to town, like probably a lot more than
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: you realize, like you're offering perspective and wisdom and It's
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 2: that old saying, I think it comes from AA, where
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: the guy falls in the hole and he's yelling up
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: for people passing by. to like help him out. And
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden the dude jumps in with
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: him and he's like, what are you doing? He's like, well,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 2: I've been down here before. I know the way out.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: And so that's something you're offering to future generations. So
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: thank you for that. And thanks for having me on. Wow.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Till next time, this is Bob Left Sets.