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Muriel Wilkins: The Bold Belief Shift Every Leader Must Make · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the lead or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have Muriel Wilkins.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She is the founder and CEO of Paravis Partners, and she is also a sought-after C-suite advisor and executive coach with a 20-year track record of helping senior leaders take their performance to the next level.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: She is the author of Leadership Unblocked, Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential, and a co-author of Own the Room, Discover Your Signature Voice to Master Your Leadership Presence.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Muriel is the host of the Harvard Business Review podcast, Coaching Real Leaders, consistently ranked as a top 10 podcast in Apple's management category.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: She was recently shortlisted for the 2025 Thinkers 50 Coaching and Mentoring Award.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So happy to have you, Muriel, and excited to talk to you about your new book as well as all the things that you do across leadership and with leaders in the world.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm delighted to be here with you, Lee.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear your definition of bold.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: What does bold mean to you?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, bold to me is probably the same as the way that I define confidence, which is sort of stepping out into the unknown.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I think about, you know, the word confidence, it comes from a place of being able to operate with faith and not from a religious sense, but faith being able to operate without fear of the unknown, right?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think bold is the same thing to me.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily knowing that you're you know exactly what's going to happen or what to do, but knowing that you have the capability to figure it out and therefore you can step out.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Mine was really close to that.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like feeling the fear and doing it anyway, stepping forward.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, either way you're gonna learn.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if it if it works, you'll learn.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't work, which you know, a lot of the times it doesn't work perfectly, uh, but you learn along the way.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I really love that definition.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we have so many bold moments in our lives.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wondering if you have a bold moment that comes to mind that matches that definition when you really stepped out with confidence, even though you weren't sure of the outcome.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like I probably, you know, I don't know, at this point in my life, it feels like every day is a bold day.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of look at life that way.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm really not sure what's gonna happen, but you know, I'm just gonna get out of this bed and vote for it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, probably I think the one that uh stands out for me is, you know, when I started my own business 20 something years ago, and I had been pretty much on a corporate track, rising very quickly with responsibilities, et cetera, and then decided to hang my shingle up, as they say, and start this executive coaching business as a solo practitioner.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, you know, the way I describe it, Lee, is like the day that I decided, I describe it as like my haircut day, which is like, you know, I don't know about you, but for me, it's like the moment I feel like I need a haircut, like I need to go get it done right away.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I cannot wait.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on a texting basis with my stylist.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what do you have open today?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: It has to happen today.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I call that feeling the sort of you know when you know, you know, and that's what it was for me.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was like I knew that this was the right time, this was the right moment.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was really no rationale behind it.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was just this knowing, and I followed that rather than my typical way, which is very data-driven, everything has to be locked in step, et cetera.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what was bold about it, is that it was very much driven by intuition that I could figure it out.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea if I'd be able to make it, and I had no idea if I'd be able to have a successful business.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I just knew that I could try it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that is what I would say one of my bold steps that I think back on.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times, and congratulations on that.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it is no small feat to step out, to step away, and to do something new.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: For me, when I started, I didn't even ever think about doing it in my life.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really thought I was always going to be in corporate, and I just got to a place of burnout that really kind of pushed me to that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And for you, you had this you know, you know, type of moment, and you listened to your intuition, which a lot of the times I think really good leaders do listen to their intuition, but unfortunately, people do push that away.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, can you tell me a little bit about that?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because someone would say, Well, you know, you're crazy.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you got that, but I still like, what?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, what are you doing?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have benefits.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: You actually, I mean, I worked for a company that had a retirement plan, you know, all the things, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's stable.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's stable.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was security, you know.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what was to be honest, I think the the bold part for me wasn't so much starting the business.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was exactly what you said, right?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was listening to my intuition, which is not something that I typically had done.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this was 20 years ago, which I still have had to sort of cultivate over the past 20 years.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think now I'm at a place where I, you know, it's not to say that I'm not data driven and I solely operate out of intuition, but I am at a place now where I double click, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, I see the data, I see what everything's saying, blah, blah, blah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And let me also check in.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a much more um intentional step that I take.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think that for many of us, the reason why we don't pay attention to our intuition or don't even know it's there, don't even hear it, is that we were never taught to, right?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: We were never taught to listen to that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: We were taught to listen to everything outside of us as the markers and the milestones and the determining factors, rather than recognizing that while that's valid and it can inform us, we also have this very intelligent system that lies within us.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, I didn't make this up.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is what's been in the wisdom teachings forever and ever and ever that we can also tap into.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, that was the bold part is to probably the beginning of starting to recognize that that was even there and then, you know, growing from there.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about your newest book, which is Leadership Unblocked, Breakthrough the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential, was there something specific within that that also it's highly connected, obviously, to our mindset, which to me, our mindset is connected also to our intuition, which is what we're talking about here.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Was there anything specific that you're like, I really feel like this is what we need to write on?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is it from your clients?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it from all of your work?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, those can inspire.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think writing this book was also another moment of just knowing.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have to be honest with you, Lee.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I said after my first book that I would never write another book again.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was not somebody who set out to be an author.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I still sort of you're accidentalists, right?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an accidental author.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think I would write two either.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I get you know, I don't even like really call myself that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't fully embraced it, which is okay.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was no plan to write a book.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was really this idea or feeling that I got like this message I'm seeing with my clients, how impactful it is, or this way of thinking, how impactful it is.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I had experienced it myself.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then it just as I was looking at what's going on around the world and how what leadership looks like, I'm like, what feels like there's a missing link?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And this was it to me.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have people who I work with every day who are extremely high performers, hugely successful, and yet they still struggle.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the struggle is not always on the outside, a lot of times it's on the inside in terms of how they feel about leadership, their relationship to leadership.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then it trickles down to everyone else.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it was more around how do we change or how do we expand our relationship to leadership in terms of how you experience it?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer for me is a big part of that is your mindset.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was also blown away, you know, through my own work.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a parent, I'm a partner, I'm into personal development stuff where this conversation was happening in all of these other domains.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've read The Conscious Parent, I've read, you know, Sovereign Love, which is about conscious relationships, and I've read it in all these other ass, you know, I've read Michael Singer's The Untethered Soul and done all that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: You got them all.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and then I was like, why is it crickets when it comes to leadership?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean that it wasn't there.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: There are fantastic books and and stuff there, but it's not enough.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not in the conversations that I'm having and that I'm hearing in the hallway.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so another part was like, how do we frame this in a way that is palatable to the folks that I work with who are hardcore business people?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that it's presented to them in a way where it spoke their language.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they can receive it, right?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge point too.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of the things that we read or that are out there for us to take in is like, is it in the right language for us to receive it?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we hear mindset a lot, and some people feel like that's too woo, or that's you know, we're talking about something that isn't like tactical or strategic when it totally is.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what's most interesting is just even in the title, leadership unblocked.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know, even as a leader, that something's happening that needs to be unblocked?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Are there signals?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are there symptoms?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure there are.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: In my work, which again, as you know, I work one-on-one with people.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I spend most of my time doing, coaching them, being their advisor.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: They don't come to me unless they're feeling that something is off.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Either they know or somebody's told them, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: The 360 says something is off, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or the performance review says something is off, the business results say something is off, or sometimes it's internal.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm starting this new role and I don't quite feel as confident as I typically feel, or the organization's going through a lot of change, I'm not quite sure how to handle it.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So at the most basic terms, it's whenever you have a sense, whether it's an external cue of that sense or an internal cue, that something is off, then that means there is a potential that you're blocked in some way, right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it is that like we are so dispositioned to moving so quickly from something is blocked to what do I do?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Which is what I did.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: We need a solution.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, exactly.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And did with my clients for years, like, okay, let's get to the action plan.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: What are we doing?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the 10 steps to do.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I realized is that wasn't sustainable because there whatever was driving the actions had not evolved at the same level.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what really got me curious about this work is well, how do we make the rising up or the leveling up more sustainable?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to also look at, you know, what's, as we say, that internal operating system that's then driving the actions.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this can happen at any point in time in our career.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you have to have 10 years, 20 years, 30 years before you feel something that, you know, you talk about in the book.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: It can happen early on in your career.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it will continue to happen.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't, you know, I would be foolish to say, hey, this book is your solution for never getting blocked again.
• 12:28
  unknown: Right.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what it is.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I tell my clients all the time, and I and I say it in the book like the challenges don't go away.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would be somebody who's not real if I can make all your challenges go away.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is not the promise.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: But can you change the way that you experience those challenges?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I'm offering here, right?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is that you know, a lot of times I think the reason why people hire me as a coach is so that they can experience those challenges differently.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And what I'm suggesting here is, you know, kind of working myself out of a job to say, look at I want you to build the capacity that you don't even need me, right?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or any other coach, because you going back to the beginning of our conversation, you actually have that capability within yourself to coach yourself.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so part of this is offering that to people so that they can actually do the work themselves.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, teaching them to fish, so to speak, you know, exactly.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I think that's interesting about coaching is, you know, the person who is the coach, and I'll just speak for myself, is that I too have these moments.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: I too, you know, it isn't like everything's perfect in my life moving forward as well.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think it becomes, you know, a classroom for all of us in some form inside the organization, outside the organization, with our coach.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's always a moment of learning that can happen.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with tools like your book, you have that fuel in addition to your experiences plus your intuition, which I'm gonna add in there because you know, you did talk about that.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a big piece of understanding that this is a journey.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Leadership is a journey.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't like I did oh one through 10, check the box, I'm a great leader.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes maybe when we're younger, potentially, or even older, I don't know, but I I feel wiser at least in my 50s than I did maybe in my 20s.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, it really is.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Things just don't impact as much, or maybe in the sense of like there isn't a reaction needed as much.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think there's a lot of mindset work that I have done, certainly in the last five years, because I think for me, there was a point as a leader that I felt like I couldn't actually be enough of me, you know.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in the environment in a corporate environment, I was in academic medicine, so it's very black and white of what you're supposed to do and not to do.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was specifically in clinical research, so very black and white.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's still the dynamics, there's the politics of the organization, there's the processes, the systems, you know.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Which those are all the skills, right?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are all the technical parts, which I'm not saying that those are not important.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course they're important, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like what we're talking about here is sort of that last mile, you know, the thing that's gonna really, you know.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I used to be a long distance runner, and it was like, man, those last couple of miles, it was all mindset.
• 15:19
  unknown: You know?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was all up here and in here.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: It had nothing to do.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the body obviously could give out, yeah, but I knew I had the skills and the techniques to know how to pace myself if I used them appropriately.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if my body gave out, it's because I didn't use the skills appropriately.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was not for anything else, right?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't hydrated well, I had paced too, whatever.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the mindset piece is what would carry me for those last couple of miles, where you really felt, or at least I really felt like, okay, this is where the race really starts because it's so challenging, it's intolerable, versus then moving to like, how can I experience this differently?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't feel as arduous.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that analogy because I do think I am not a long distance runner in any way.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I did the 300 and like through the discus and tracking.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I you know, I better no, yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Those are just the two things.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I did the discus because no other girl wanted to do it.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, sure, I play softball.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I might even still have a record.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it I but I never ran long distances.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, from the perspective of your analogy, like you do all the training, but ultimately it is your mindset that's going to get you across that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think of like David Goggins and some of the things I've read.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, he's an ultra marathoner, but it it is all mindset, yeah, in the sense of those last miles.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to being a leader, like you have the great degree, you've had the wonderful, you know, mentorship, you've had the maybe a fellowship.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I had a fellowship during my master's, but then you know, you're shot out, and then you're like, let's go.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what was interesting in my first year after getting my uh MHSA, my boss got riffed, and then I got riffed.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, even my first experience, like in the corporate setting in a huge hospital system, I got riffed, and I didn't know what to do with that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had a a baby, you know, I was 28, had a baby, married, you know, house, all the jazz.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what was interesting was how I did handle it was like it's gonna be okay.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna figure it out.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna learn something new, you know?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think everybody takes it that way.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean like it didn't hit hard the day it happened, and when you're carrying your box out of the place, it's not like feeling terrible.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just mean that I chose to I'm the more 24 to 36 hours to take something in and then have the plan.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just need a day.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Give me a day.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then but it was how you choose to move forward.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And even what you just tapped into there, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: By saying it's going to be okay.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a belief.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we don't know if it's true.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know if any of this is true, but that's what you're choosing because that's what is going to help you in that moment as you say move forward, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it also taps into kind of one of the fundamental needs that serves all of us that we all need, which one of them is to feel safe.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how do we feel safe?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: We often feel safe by knowing that things are going to be okay.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the difference is when we're younger, you know, as kids, we have other people who hopefully, sometimes not, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Who are telling us it's going to be okay.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: But as an adult, you know, and as a leader, particularly as a leader, whose role is it to tell you it's going to be okay?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like you better look around.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody else is going to tell you that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nobody, you know, everybody's looking to you to say it's going to be okay.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you need that frame of mind and the the story that you're telling yourself about the situation or the challenge that you're facing is critical about then determining how you move forward.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I always think of your mindset as your map and what you think is what you're moving toward, and what you say about yourself or what you say about the situation is what you're pulling in.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it is a big piece of that.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when you talk about beliefs, you have particularly key beliefs.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's seven beliefs that can hold us back.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share a few or share some of the key ones that you know we need to cue into and can learn more about inside the yeah, absolutely.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and look, these beliefs didn't really come out of nowhere.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was curious as to whether there were any patterns in terms of what got in the way of leaders either being able to scale or grow or feel less burnout, you know, all the things that typically they feel challenged with that they want to do something about.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I looked across a sample size of about 300 ish of my clients from the past 20 years to see, you know, were there any commonalities?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And lo and behold, there were.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um, some of the beliefs that came up, and they're so simple, like you don't even think about them.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's They're so sometimes hard to find because you're like, Oh yeah, I need that all the time, but I didn't realize that that was causing anything, right?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, like one of them is I need to be involved.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and how does that show up?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: That shows up in every time you see a meeting pop up and you're like, Oh, yeah, I should be in that one, or a decision was made and you're like, Why wasn't I involved in that?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or you ask somebody, copy me on all those emails, right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or anything where you are wanting to be in all the things, there's probably a belief behind that around I need to be involved.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Other types of beliefs are I need it done now, which often leads to toxic productivity.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm right is a big one.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, meaning you're literally here, like, I know what we need to do.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have the answer.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I can't say no, I don't belong here is another one that really surprised me is uh if I can do it, so can you.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because that one is used in such inspirational ways and yet can also have a detracting uh faction.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then I can't make a mistake.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at some point in my career, I've I've probably thought most of those.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And some form, but I may not have said them out loud, but I definitely have thought, you know, in that sense.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So just even hearing notes is like, oh wow, like what was wrong with me?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean anything's wrong with you.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right exactly, because in no way do I say that these beliefs are bad, right?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're not bad or good.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just are they are they helping you in the particular moment that other product?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, exactly.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Are they productive?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I need to be involved was is one that I've certainly had to examine.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And look, when I was an individual contributor straight out of college and I had a very administrative job, I need to be involved was a belief that really, really helped me, right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it helped everybody else too, because I was in charge of dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if it didn't happen, it had an impact on everybody else.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: But as I grew in my leadership and I scaled, and I now had teams that I managed and I had a lot more on my plate, and I was responsible for the strategic direction of, you know, the teams that I was managing, et cetera, this I need to be involved was not serving that well, right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It did not support the definition of success of leadership at that level.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not a, you know, good or bad, is there a misalignment?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a dissonance between what you're thinking and what you actually need to deliver on?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's that noticing that sometimes I think definitely in younger stages of my career, I wasn't noticing, like, oh, why did I say that?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or feedback we get.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I even was working with a client this week, their boss said something that felt a little, I would say, snarky or not productive in the sense of helpful.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I said, Well, is there any truth in it?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is there even point oh one?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and what what can we learn from what he saw that maybe you didn't?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's none, you know, it's real possible.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it was like, is there truth in that?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that, you know, as we think and hear these statements, it's like, well, you know, why do you need to feel what I would consider control?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I think when you're doing your job and you're responsible and you it's something that, you know, is very important to you as a leader.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I can see where you'd be like, well, I need to be involved.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a decision I should hear.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: How does someone maybe tune that level of needing control or needing to be involved?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I bet that's a one a lot of us have said or heard inside of us, or we've said outside of like that's something that I definitely have said as a leader.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do we, how do we know when that comes up of like, is this really just me wanting to have control, or is there validity and really needing to be involved?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think look, I think a big part of this is that it you have to be curious about it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so the you said the word noticing.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the first part is kind of even noticing or being aware that there is this belief that you're holding.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second part is being curious about it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what's there?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what how is this helping me right now?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And how or how is it hindering me?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: That that's the simple question.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: In what way is this belief contributing to the outcome that I'd like to have happen, or in what way is it working against it?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that, you know, what I've seen, and I've experienced it as well, but I've certainly seen it in my clients, is that stress comes from when there is that tension, right?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's that tension between here's how I'm operating, which is which is driven by a particular belief, and there's dissonance between that and then the outcome that I'm achieving, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes what it either takes is a redefinition of the outcome, a redefinition of success, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or a redefinition of what the actions are, which then we need to go back to, well, what's driving that action?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that I think it's it's kind of that's where the sort of unpacking piece is.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be a bit curious about it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I always say, like, this is it's not about beating yourself up because you you thought this or whatnot.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's you actually just need to ask yourself, and this is it's kind of expanding your range, is this going to help me in this moment?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't need to let go of the belief forever.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's just in this moment, in the situation, if we use the one I need to be involved, like okay, so is that really true?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you know, what is it, what is it really helping me do here?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what I, you know, when I I'm sure you've experienced this too, when I work with my clients one-on-one and we scratch the surface on that, you know, a lot of times, sometimes sheepishly, they'll be like, Yeah, well, it just makes me feel better.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, but is that the goal here?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or they'll say, it's just who I am.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, and and what's the goal, right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is the goal to optimize who you are?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is the goal to feel comfortable?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's what is what are we trying to optimize here?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the question.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like be clear about what you're trying to optimize and then align the beliefs or the assumptions that you make with that.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: When I look back now and I think about just generally the times that I felt that way, I think there's probably a small proportion that was true, meaning, like because I wasn't in there or wasn't involved, now we have a cleanup situation or something got created that really doesn't fit the model or fit what how we operate, unfortunately.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say the rest of the time, what it did was create more work, create a lot of stuff in my email box, or slow down what, like you said, what the goal was, or potentially, you know, because I was involved in scheduling and all that jazz that goes along with it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, really I love how you put that out there.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what is the goal?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: The goal isn't for you to feel comfortable, the goal is to get the work done.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is to achieve, the goal is the mission of the organization.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to get a little comfortable with being uncomfortable as a leader.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's why I wrote this specifically for leaders, right?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of times with my clients, they'll be, you know, they'll be like, well, you know, why do I have to do this?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, because you're the leader.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're it.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be.
• 27:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a reason, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: You are in the leadership role and you're getting paid what you get paid, and you get the accolades, and you have that office, and you have all the like, there's a reason.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've opted into it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's forcing you.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, again, are you operating at the same altitude that your position requires?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think, you know, no shade on them.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: They just never really made that calculation, you know.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there's a little bit, I mean, this is very, I've had a couple of people say, you know, that they feel like the work in the book is sort of uh expansion on Marshall Goldsmith's, you know, what got you here won't get you there.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yeah, he totally was inspirational to me.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I know his work very, very closely.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, this is a bit of a deeper dive on this one little area around what got you here won't get you there, which is the piece around the stories we tell ourselves about what leadership even is.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: What does vulnerability have to do with our mindset and also some of the things that can bubble up when we talk about this the seven areas that we just kind of walk through?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So vulnerability, I mean, it's a word that's used so often now.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I whenever I see a word used often, I'm like, uh we gotta like break it down a little bit.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would say is the parts that folks might consider vulnerable.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: The way I would frame it is you've got to be honest, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that I frame honesty, even in the book, is is more just accepting accepting the situation, seeing the situation clearly.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's the vulnerability, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then accepting it for what it is.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so the seeing the situation clearly is being able to say, Yes, I want to be a strategic leader and I am not, right?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: That is clear.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one of the the beliefs I talk about is the I don't belong here as one of the beliefs.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things that they need to see clearly is you're sitting in the room, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: You are in the room, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually at the table, you're in the meeting, right?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that vulnerable?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes when we see something clearly, it pushes against this belief that we hold on to so tightly.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if I am somebody who holds on to the I don't belong here, which by the way did not start the day that I walked into that meeting, that's been a belief that's been being cultivated for a long time.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's been under the surface most likely.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's been under the surface.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden you're like, oh, but actually, reality shows that I am here.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have, I mean, this is what we call cognitive dissonance, right?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: We want our external to sort of fit what it is that we believe rather than say, oh, maybe I should change how I believe so I can see the external in a different way, you know.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the vulnerability part is actually in this acceptance of how things are, you know, it is what it is, what it is.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that's just sort of taking off all the layers in terms of looking at yourself.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I make a very, very, very strong line between what it is that I'm suggesting in the book and what I do as a coach and what therapy is.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So this is not about kind of going back and healing the situations that maybe were traumatic for you or that led to these beliefs.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about that at all.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's about looking at and acknowledging, yeah, there's certain ways that I think right now that may not be helping me as a leader.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let me try to figure out, you know, are there other ways in which I can think?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it can feel vulnerable, but for the most part, I have experienced that most of my clients when they work through it.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Once they see it, they're like, oh, you know, this is no different than me looking at my business saying, Oh, okay, let's face the reality of we're losing money.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is what it is.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's the awareness, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, I had some coaching moments.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely remember my career where I was like, oh, I didn't see it that way.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't realize that other people could see it differently.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, like it was so for me, it was just like that's the way it is.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it was early in my career of like, wow, I didn't even think about how that could be perceived, you know?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think one of the main things was just I'm a straight shooter.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I like I think it's a lot more efficient.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's just put it on the table and talk about it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just because I feel that way doesn't mean it makes anyone else, you know, everyone else comfortable.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, it may be efficient, but that's not the way that things get done.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was as silly as that sounds now, it was something of big learning for me of like, wow, I I can't just do that all the time.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think the other part that is vul that can feel vulnerable is in the accepting of it, is also accepting your own your part, you know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so, because you know, there's so much focus on like, well, if I can get everybody else to fall in line, or if I can, you know, move mountains, then I will feel okay.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, versus saying, well, no, like let me start with me, which is leading, okay.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm not absolving all the other things, but I play a part too, you know, and so let me take accountability for the part that I play and let me focus on that first, or or at least in a parallel fashion to the way that I'm dealing with everybody else.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a certain way that you approach coaching your clients when you feel like they're on the right path or they have the tools to kind of notice and be aware and shift when they need to and and get focused?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: But they're working in an organization that has other leaders or has other spaces that may not be as aware.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, like you have like your shop in good shape, but you're inside a mall that's not being run really well in in in some shape or form.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes back to again them just seeing the reality of it.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's the goal?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because when there is frustration around that, it goes back to one of the beliefs that I point out here.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the belief of if I can do it, so can you.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this sense of like, oh my gosh, I can do this now.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm aware, I can accept, I can move from blocked to unblocked.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, why can't everybody else do it?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm frustrated because they can't, you know, and well, why?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have these expectations that they should.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a way, it also becomes an area of growth because it is how do you lead in a way where everybody is not like you, in which it means a recalibration of what your expectations are.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the question is then if there is too much dissonance, you know, what suffers?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it you or is it the organization?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happens with a lot of my clients in that situation is they have to figure out what their why is for continuing to work in an organization like that, or decide, you know, do they need to work at in a place where the culture, which is really a representation of the collective set of beliefs, is more aligned with where they are.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: But in an interesting way, I talk with or my clients, what often comes up in situations like this is they start recognizing that if they are always in situations where everyone is aligned, as you pointed out early in our conversation, it doesn't really mirror the aspects that they still need to grow in.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes, you know, and and it's what I did, right?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: In one of the stories that I share in the book is they'll stay because they realized, oh, I can actually continue to grow this muscle here because it's it's I'm actually running up the hill, you know.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the only way I'm gonna actually build those muscles is by running uphill versus I'm gonna go to something where it feels always great and then the learning doesn't isn't as impactful.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, does mean you have to be running uphill all the time, all the time, all the time.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love the reframe.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: This doesn't feel too great, but I'm learning and this is a muscle I need to build.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: It comes back to like redefining even what their purpose is for being there at times.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love that reframe.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: I needed that probably at times, you know, throughout it.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I ever felt like I needed to leave, but I wondered if I fit, right?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was more so, you know, probably just again a learning for me of like really getting back to focus on what's the goal.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: The goal isn't for you to feel fit like you fit all the time.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, it doesn't mean you want to feel that way, you know, that you don't fit a hundred percent.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's something there.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when you said you don't you don't want to be running up the hill all the time, but you are building a muscle when you do it.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then I think even that question of like, do I fit if you were my client, we would be like, what does that even mean?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what's it mean?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And let's try to understand what it actually means to fit.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And usually when it comes to something like that with a client, what they will point to a lot is how other people are making them feel versus I say, and I'm like, let's not, again, I'm not absolving what those folks are doing or what's happening out there, but I want to understand like, what does it mean for you to fit, for you to make yourself fit, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that mean for you to fit even in in your office or in your chair or within yourself?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what, you know, that one is really fascinating because a lot of times what folks will find is this feeling of not fitting in or not, you know, not be feeling like a fit has often followed them around in different, and this is just a stage in which it's reminding them of that, you know.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's like what is, you know, how can they experience that differently that's in their control?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think mine was really around wanting to be myself and not always editing and not always, you know, being rounded because there's a lot of situations, I think, when it comes to, you know, certainly the space I was in, that it's right or it's wrong.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is no like gray area in clinical research most of the time.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, for me, it was I think coming into a space of like, I need people who are going to kind of really understand that.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what I've learned now since leaving corporate is there was a space of like, okay, what is the point?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is the what you talk about?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what is the mission?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what what's the goal?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think now looking back, what I was focused on more about was like how I felt versus like, are we getting it done?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I also hate being inefficient, is just one of the things I just can't.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there was some pieces and parts that came with that, also of like, I want to get stuff done.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Does everybody else have the same high bar I have?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, yeah, and and and so that's different from fit, right?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is because and so because like even what you just said around, you know, uh being understood.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And again, with my clients, if we can start pulling the thread and they're like, no, it's actually like I just want them to understand what I'm saying.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, okay.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, so that's different, right?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's talk about now how you can increase the probability of making yourself feel understood, which may require you, you know, framing things differently.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: If the goal is for you to be understood, then you have to start thinking about what their language is and start speaking their language.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you're understood.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're not understood by forcing people to say, you know, yes, I'm in Italy, but I'm gonna keep speaking English and I'm gonna force you to understand me.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're gonna say, well, let me try to learn some of the words in Italian so that hopefully they can understand me.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I also learned was that sometimes to be heard or understood, you have to actually be quiet.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: You have to actually let some things play out, which is a language.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's gone very quickly, but I want to just end with this.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone's feeling stuck right now and they're not sure what is their first step from getting unblocked besides buying the book, which everybody should, what's something that they can do to to at least begin this shift of feeling this block?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the first thing that they can do is just ask themselves a simple question, which is in what way am I contributing to this discomfort that I'm feeling?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: What am I adding to it?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: How am I making it?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's my role in it?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: What's my contribution?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I say contribution because you know, contribution feels like an offering.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a nicer word.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no, again, there's no shame about it.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just what am I contributing?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can start pinpointing that, then it starts the whole process like, well, what is it that I'm contributing?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do I accept?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: What do I own?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: How am I thinking about that?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: What's driving that in terms of the the situation that you're experiencing?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that because there is some, there's ownership in that, you know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: When we think the so the bold framework is believe, own, learn, design.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: In my first book, I talked through that, but the beliefs become that filter for all of your actions.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then ownership is a big piece of that.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: And to um, you know, for me, it was ownership of what was going wrong all the time and never thinking about what was going right.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: But when we have these situations, even like the one I just talked about in my career of like, oh, I didn't fit, or are they hearing me?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: Did I get it?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, wow, I, you know, I I had some ownership in that.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, what did I contribute?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I and I love that how you approach that.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Please, everyone, please pick up Leadership Unblocked by Muriel.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we will look forward to hearing more about you, not only uh in your books, but also on your podcast.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking a leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.