Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / Pip Sheldon: Losing a Brother

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Pip Sheldon: Losing a Brother · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

0:00
We finally taped it up. We wanted to get you Pip on, I
0:05
don't know, maybe six months ago because you've been involved
0:09
with Yoga for Resilience, which is a a big hit with our
0:12
community. But there's a lot of other stuff
0:15
you do, the Healthy Trading Project.
0:18
And I wanted to, as I now often do in these episodes, is take
0:24
you back to a moment in time. And I wanted take some words
0:27
from your Ted Talk that you did the 5th of September.
0:32
It's 1:00 AM. In the darkness of my bedroom.
0:35
I'm on the floor, my head buried on my knees.
0:39
I'm stunned, I'm in shock. It was just after midnight that
0:43
my phone rang. Private number.
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I didn't answer. Not a minute later, it rang
0:48
again. And this time it was my brother
0:51
Owen. My brother never calls me in the
0:53
middle of the night, and the moment that he spoke, I knew
0:57
something was terribly wrong. Bravely, but in a broken voice,
1:02
he said, it's Dale. Dale has died by suicide.
1:14
I don't think it matters how much time passes.
1:18
I still remember the events of that day and that night like it
1:23
was yesterday. I was, yeah.
1:32
I think for me, it was complete shock and disbelief to even hear
1:38
those words coming out of Owen's mouth.
1:42
Dale was our eldest brother, and he was 35 at the time.
1:51
Dale was. He was a Carpenter.
1:55
He'd, he'd worked in the building industry since he was
1:58
15, left school at year 10 and, and went on to be a, you know,
2:02
do an apprenticeship and be a chippy.
2:04
And he was larger than life. He had, you know, this enormous
2:10
group of friends. He was this, you know, really
2:14
casual tradie. And from the outset and what we
2:18
all saw, he was really always enjoying life.
2:22
And that moment just completely, I think, shattered my world.
2:32
And I think that of our family, it was nothing that we ever ever
2:40
expected we would ever we would ever face.
2:45
I remember when I first heard about my dad, I was sitting at
2:51
the top of the stairway and similar it it tragedy just comes
2:57
out of nowhere and it hits you in the face like nothing that
3:03
you can imagine, just pulls the rug out from under your feet.
3:10
What happened in the moments after you received that phone
3:13
call? I think it's, I sat literally
3:19
just on the floor in the bedroom, you know, head in my
3:23
hands, just in this complete, complete shock.
3:29
And then I feel like this autopilot kicked in.
3:35
I was in Canberra at the time, so I was living in Canberra, my
3:38
family's all in in Queensland. And immediately this autopilot
3:43
kicked in is I need to get back to Queensland.
3:46
At the time our parents had only a couple of weeks before left on
3:52
their first Grey Nomad trip. They were travelling around
3:55
Australia with, with with some friends.
3:57
And for me it was I need to be in Queensland, I need to be back
4:02
in Brisbane, I need to be there with Owen.
4:04
And it was about, you know, booking flights, getting on that
4:10
first flight out of Canberra to get back home.
4:16
And I think it was when I, it wasn't until I probably actually
4:19
got up in the air on that plane that actually started to cry.
4:23
And I think that's when it really hit me and I felt that
4:28
sense of loss. But I think up until that point
4:31
I was just moving on autopilot, thinking about getting home,
4:36
getting in touch with mum and dad.
4:38
How do we how do we find them and where they are in their
4:41
troubles? Yeah.
4:45
And it was, you know, landing in Brisbane, seeing Owen, my sister
4:51
in law, my nephews. And yeah, it it was very much
4:59
just this mode of what needs to be done right now and, and
5:09
talking to those who were either with him that day or those of
5:16
his mates who were around him at that time.
5:22
Yeah, I remember at first, the first time my tears came was
5:30
when I had to speak it into existence.
5:33
So I heard it. I heard my mum told me that my
5:36
dad had passed and I was, yeah, like, shattered.
5:40
But it really came through when I had to tell my mates that I
5:44
had to go back home when they asked why and I had to tell
5:48
them. And I just couldn't, couldn't do
5:50
it without breaking into breaking into tears.
5:57
You made your Ted Talk. I think it was 10 years ago or
6:00
thereabouts. And I can still see the almost
6:06
the tears coming up in your eyes now.
6:08
It Dale still leaves you there today.
6:13
He does. And I think it, it doesn't
6:17
matter. I don't think it matters how
6:19
long passes. I think we begin to learn how to
6:26
live with a new normal. I think that's the best way I
6:29
can describe it. There's still songs that come on
6:32
the radio. There's still days during the
6:34
year that just, you know, bring up all these emotions and
6:39
there's moments that, you know, I, I just have and I remember
6:42
him and I remember those moments and, but there's always a void.
6:49
And there's, I think that's something that I've really
6:51
noticed is that as a family, we were very, very big on, you
6:57
know, coming together for, for birthdays and obviously
7:00
Christmas. And certainly early on, there
7:04
was this void there in our family and it was noticeable,
7:09
you know, it was obvious and you could never feel it.
7:14
But for me, it was important to it was important to celebrate
7:17
him. It was important to acknowledge
7:19
his birthday and, you know, and talk about him.
7:22
We had, you know, I've got 2 nephews from, you know, Owen's
7:26
children and they were, you know, six months and two years
7:30
old at the time that Dale died. And, you know, for them, I
7:34
wanted to keep that, that memory, you know, alive and, and
7:38
continue those conversations. But I think that's been my
7:41
biggest thing throughout all of this is continuing to to talk
7:46
and continue to have the conversation.
7:48
And, and I don't honour him. Yeah.
7:51
I, I do want to talk about, well, later on Dale
7:56
specifically, but also, yeah, how you remember him and how you
8:01
honour him as well. But I do want to linger on that
8:07
immediate after aftermath. You said you went on autopilot,
8:16
but at the same time, there's almost no script that you can
8:20
follow. When you look back on how you
8:24
and how your family either came together or ventured off in your
8:31
own directions, how how do you reflect on how you how you, how
8:37
you struggled with Dale's loss? I think we all dealt with it in
8:42
our own individual way. I think for my parents, for mum
8:46
and dad, you know, part of them died that day.
8:51
And, you know, I, I remember my dad saying that, you know, no
8:56
parent should ever have to say goodbye to their child.
9:02
I don't think mum ever really could understand and ever
9:07
really, I don't know, I came to terms with the fact that she
9:10
lost, you know, she lost her son.
9:15
Dad, I think, you know, didn't want to talk about it.
9:19
That was his way of coping. Mum did.
9:24
And a bit like me, I guess is for me, my biggest struggle was
9:29
not having answers. And I think that's why I wanted
9:34
to, to talk about it. And I and I would talk to his
9:36
mates And the, the overwhelming response I got was no one saw
9:43
this coming. No one had any idea that he was
9:48
struggling to that point. And that for me, I don't know,
9:54
it was a bit of a kick in the guts I think at times because I
9:57
started to see that, gosh, there is so much that we anyone could
10:02
have done had we actually known or had we been aware that he was
10:07
having those thoughts. And talking about it for me was
10:13
a way I think of healing. You know, I, I went on to, to do
10:21
the applied suicide intervention skills training, you know, and
10:24
again, that was another reminder of, gosh, these are all the
10:28
things that I guess we thought were probably just part of life.
10:32
They were things that we all go through and challenges that we
10:35
all face. But for him, that compound of
10:41
all those challenges was obviously putting him in a place
10:47
where he felt that that was the only option.
10:51
So I think while we all had our own, I guess we all had our own
10:54
individual way of dealing with it.
10:57
I feel like it, it certainly brought us closer together.
11:02
Even though, you know, Dad didn't necessarily talk about
11:06
it, my mum and I did, you know, Owen, I think it's brought Owen
11:11
and I closer together over the years as well.
11:15
And, you know, but I feel like there was initially probably a
11:19
lot of guilt that all of us carried because we didn't know
11:24
and we, we didn't see it coming yet.
11:27
We would have done anything had we had the opportunity.
11:31
Yeah, I mean, I, I think about it all the time.
11:39
And the, the, the layer of tragedy with suicide is, I mean,
11:45
you can say with your work and how you speak about Dale is that
11:49
there was definitely reason for him to still be here.
11:53
He was loved. And it's, I don't know the word
11:58
for it, but the amount of pain that's left behind and the
12:02
amount of pain that caused it is just, it's a shame that there
12:07
couldn't have been that meeting point that that's, that stopped
12:10
pain on both sides of that coin. I yeah, I just, I want to, I
12:24
want to talk quickly about Dale. I want to because in my own Gen,
12:29
I similar to you, like I comprehended my struggle with my
12:34
dad's passing kind of out loud and you know, trying to figure
12:40
it out, trying to ask questions. But I didn't do it for 910 years
12:44
to after the fact. I kind of had both.
12:46
I did the kept it all inside and to some ways it worked, but to
12:50
other ways it didn't and then tried to figure it out.
12:55
But over the yeah, it's now 16 years since he passed, I kind of
13:02
forgot who he was because I didn't, I didn't address it.
13:08
I didn't square it away. So I want to ask you, who was
13:15
you mentioned it briefly, but who was Dale?
13:21
Dale was the eldest and I'm the youngest and he was my protector
13:27
growing up. He had, you know, he was
13:31
protective of his little sister. And I think we had this, you
13:34
know, we just had this, this really beautiful relationship
13:37
that was, you know, different to my relationship with Owen, but
13:42
he just, he was the this really casual guy.
13:48
And you know, you, if anyone, if you talk about being authentic,
13:53
it was him. You know, he, he had a saying
13:55
that he just used to say, you know, I'm not out to impress.
14:01
I'm, if he wants to rock up in his, you know, in his footy
14:05
shorts and a pair of thongs, then that's what he'll do
14:08
because that's what he was comfortable in.
14:11
And, you know, he just, I lived with him for a little while at a
14:17
point in time in my life. And you know, I always remember
14:20
every afternoon there would be people at his place.
14:23
And he was that, you know, he, he would do anything for anyone.
14:29
If someone needed something built, he'd be there.
14:31
You know, it was always this, as tradies do, there's always this,
14:34
you know, kind of no money changes hands, but there's
14:37
always this labour of, of giving and receiving between them.
14:41
But, you know, he was just, yeah, he was such a, a real, I
14:49
don't know, I kind of treat see him as a real true blue Aussie,
14:53
rough on the exterior, but with an absolute heart of gold,
14:59
absolute heart of gold. Is there a moment where that
15:01
heart of gold came through that's coming to your head?
15:08
I think when he, like, he didn't hesitate in taking me in when I
15:11
needed, you know, when I needed that in my life, I'd gone
15:15
through a relationship breakup and and, you know, and he didn't
15:19
hesitate in saying come and live with me.
15:23
Big Brother. Big Brother.
15:25
Yeah, yeah. It's nice to see that he still
15:31
brings like joy to your eyes and makes you smile.
15:38
One of the things you did that you've already said after he
15:42
passed is you did the intervention training and you
15:46
mentioned in in your Ted talk that you were made aware of all
15:51
the things that you could have noticed if you if you had known.
15:59
We just heard obviously what Dale was like, I guess in the
16:04
eyes of everyone at the time, but what, what, what did the
16:09
people around him miss? I think the things that we
16:16
probably thought were just normal everyday challenges that
16:20
we face in life, certainly relationship and on again off
16:28
again ups and downs. I think that had a big part to
16:33
play career and work. You know, the construction
16:38
industry particularly goes through these cycles of, you
16:41
know, lots of work, not enough work which has a huge flow on
16:45
effect to, you know, financial pressures often particularly
16:51
then you start and see alcohol coming into play, you know,
16:57
gambling, all of those sorts of behaviours.
17:01
So I think there was a lot of that in the mix that was, you
17:06
know, that was impacting him at that time.
17:08
And, and I think it's, it's when you know, I guess, and this is
17:12
me piercing together my view based on, you know, the
17:17
conversations and, and what I went through and, and sort of, I
17:20
guess, you know, tried to, to come up with a, an answer for
17:23
myself, I guess to find peace in that.
17:25
Benefit of hindsight. Yeah.
17:27
And I think it's, it's all of those things combined then that
17:31
I feel had a a big impact and a big part to play in, in how he
17:35
was feeling it at that point in time and perhaps seeing no way
17:38
out of that seeing, you know, no hope.
17:43
I I remember thinking about this a while back.
17:47
It's kind of like a Indiana Jones, you know, if you go,
17:51
everything's got to kind of line up for the tomb to be unlocked.
17:55
So it's, you know, you're talking about all the different
17:57
things, relationship, you know, diet work, all of those things.
18:02
And if it they all line up at one point in time in a bad way,
18:06
it can put you in a really vulnerable state.
18:09
And it's, it's it's hard to imagine someone in that, in that
18:16
state that you love because you just don't want them to be in
18:21
pain. And at the same time, you've got
18:28
to be kind to yourself because you don't know what you don't
18:33
know. And the narrative is clear now,
18:36
but certainly not clear at the time.
18:39
I mean, my experience looking back, yeah.
18:43
I can weave A narrative together that I should have seen it
18:47
coming, but me sitting at the top of the stairs in that
18:50
hostel, I definitely did not see it coming one bit.
18:55
And I think that's one of the things that I admire about you,
19:00
is you're trying to turn your family's tragedy and pain into
19:08
prevention for others, but also in a way that honours Dale.
19:15
Yeah, I think for me, it was in those couple of years after Dale
19:21
died and you know, the conversations that I was having,
19:24
I think what became really clear to me is that, gosh, there is so
19:28
much that the everyday person can be doing to support the
19:34
people around them. You know, we don't have to have
19:36
all the training, we don't need to be a professional, but we can
19:39
simply have a greater awareness first and foremost, and then,
19:44
you know, connecting with people and having those conversations
19:47
and normalising this topic. I feel like back then in 2009,
19:51
there was a lot less conversation around mental
19:54
health, around suicide prevention.
19:56
It was there, but it was still that bit of a taboo topic.
20:00
So for me, it was just like, gosh, we've got to start talking
20:03
about this because we can all have an impact on someone else's
20:08
life in a positive way if we simply just take the time and
20:13
you know, we. Particularly in this day and
20:16
age, I think we glorify busy. And you know, we're all proud to
20:20
be busy. But if we actually stop and take
20:25
the time to really listen and actually when we check in with
20:29
someone, listen for the answer, notice, notice what might be
20:34
going on for them at that time and be there for for people, I
20:38
think that can have a huge, a huge impact.
20:42
Yeah, I, I, this is going to lead nicely into the work that
20:46
you do with the Healthy Trading Project.
20:48
But you talk about 2009 the, the, I guess the culture or the
20:55
way people spoke about mental health.
20:57
I remember and speaking about like narratives that we can
21:01
latch onto. I remember my dad telling me one
21:03
day that he thought he was depressed and I would have been
21:09
1716 at the time. And I remember saying to him,
21:13
well, do you think he should go get some help?
21:16
And he said, no, I can't do that.
21:19
It would be the end of my career.
21:22
And it's, I mean, there's still flavours of that today, but it
21:28
is way better than what it was. And I want to you spoke about
21:33
Dale having that rugged exterior, but that contrast of
21:38
the emotion that he would have been feeling would have almost
21:41
acted like a barrier, but he didn't feel like he could have
21:48
exposed his pain. The mask that he wore, it filled
21:54
every one of us. And I think that's that's the
21:57
thing, you know, from he, this facade never really let any of
22:03
us see what was actually really going on for him.
22:07
And, you know, I think back to that period of time working in
22:11
construction, residential construction, like there would
22:13
never have been any conversation around mental health, emotional
22:19
health, you know, how you actually feeling.
22:23
It just wouldn't have happened at all.
22:25
And he just put on this facade and he wore this mask that
22:29
really didn't let any of us see what was actually going on.
22:32
There's something that's coming to me as well.
22:34
You spoke about him being your Big Brother.
22:37
Yeah, and maybe it's maybe it's maybe it's like maybe it's just
22:44
a male thing, but I certainly sometimes buy into it a little
22:49
bit where, And I mean this with a grain of salt, there's no
22:55
there's no time for you to struggle because you want to
22:58
look after others. Did you do you think that was it
23:04
play or is it play at all? Like where?
23:08
No, don't worry about me. I'm gonna.
23:11
I need to look after others. Yeah, I think so.
23:15
I think he, you know, he was I think always focused on everyone
23:22
else very much so. And, and this is what I think is
23:26
so is such a, you know, so tragic about it is that he would
23:31
be there for any one of his mates.
23:34
And you talk to any one of his mates at any given time and they
23:37
would tell you a story about the time when he supported them,
23:40
when they were going through a rough patch and he was the one
23:43
who was always there. And the sad thing is, is that
23:47
any one of those people would have been there for him had they
23:51
been able to see what he was going through.
23:54
And they would have done exactly for him what he did for them.
24:00
There's a lot of what you're doing now is creating an
24:06
environment where people like Dale feel like they can reach
24:13
for help. Yeah, I think what I started to
24:17
see, and it took me probably a good, I started in construction
24:22
in 2009. It was actually two weeks before
24:25
Dale took his own life and it was about seven years later that
24:32
I'd been in the industry. I, I was actually in New Zealand
24:37
at the time doing a project over there.
24:40
That was the Australian Memorial and it was for the, it was in
24:43
Wellington and it was for the Anzac centenary.
24:48
And I think being a part of that project and the meaning behind
24:51
that project and the collaboration that we had
24:54
between Australia and the Australian sort of team and the
24:57
New Zealand team over there. And, and this act of service
25:03
really lit, I think a fire in me to come back to Australia
25:09
knowing my story, knowing what I'd experienced and go, how can
25:13
I be of service to the community who I stand beside everyday.
25:18
And for me, it was about, you know, Dale is a blue collar
25:23
worker. I work with these people every
25:25
day. How can I support them?
25:27
And I knew that there was lots of support when it came to
25:33
crisis time. There was the phone and the
25:35
text, counselling services. But for me, I came back and
25:38
said, well, but there's got to be so much more that we can be
25:41
doing a long way before that to make sure that we don't get to
25:45
crisis point. And that's when I started
25:48
looking at, well, you know, how do we create and build, you
25:54
know, really healthy and well individuals so that they're able
25:58
to recognise when things are going off track and they've got
26:02
some tools and, you know, tradies and blue collar workers
26:05
are very practical people. So, you know, what are the tools
26:08
that we can give them that are, are really easy and free, but
26:14
will have a massive impact on their life?
26:16
And, and for me, it all came back down to this really just
26:18
holistic view of well being. You know, it's, it's the
26:23
movement and exercise, it's nutrition and what we're eating.
26:26
It's our recovery now asleep. It's our time with, you know,
26:31
play, you know, something that we do great as kids and we, we
26:34
forget about as we get older. But you know, it's, it's way,
26:37
it's the antidote to stress. You know, it's time in the sun.
26:42
It's all of those things and that connection and that social
26:44
interaction that are going to have a huge impact on how we
26:47
show up as individuals and help keep us in a, in a more healthy,
26:52
healthy, I guess, mindset, but also physically as well.
26:57
Yes, you're certainly speaking to someone who agrees with you.
27:00
I just, it's funny you mentioned, you know, you were
27:05
working on some meaningful project in New Zealand and you
27:08
wanted to find that within yourself.
27:12
And there was there was a quote that almost pushed me into our
27:16
Ferrari was when you find your weakness, you find your purpose.
27:20
And it's like a when someone leaves a mark on you, it's
27:24
almost you can't help but find your way to it eventually.
27:29
And it's just something that, like you said, lot lights of
27:32
fire and you want to do something with the healthy
27:37
trading project. I can't help.
27:42
It's something I see in similar circles like say, the rugby
27:46
league community, just because it's like this hard exterior of
27:54
people. And we're talking about the pain
28:01
that's on the soft interior and there's a gap there.
28:06
I know, I know, I know. I believe in the importance of
28:10
like managing the stuff that people can't see.
28:13
But how do you bridge that gap with, yeah, really practical
28:18
minded people that go, I just got to go on with it.
28:26
We've used two thing, two key things and I guess in the tools
28:31
that we give. And one of those is yoga, not
28:35
that we tell them that we're doing yoga until about halfway
28:37
through. And the other one is, is breath
28:40
work and mindfulness. And what I found is that when we
28:44
actually, you know, aside from from talking and, and giving
28:48
them information to, to sit down and actually do or to, to stand
28:53
and do those, those exercises, they come away having felt that
29:00
change immediately. You know, often we do, you know,
29:04
3 minutes of, of a body scan meditation and the change in
29:10
people just, you know, the shoulders relax, Most of them
29:15
turn around and go, gosh, I just feel, I feel so much more
29:18
relaxed. I'm actually really tired.
29:21
Well, it's probably because you need more sleep.
29:23
But they get that that change in their nervous system immediately
29:29
when we do yoga, it's an opportunity for them to drop
29:33
into their body, come out of their head.
29:36
They're not thinking about work for that 10 or 15 minutes.
29:38
If we do a pre start session, they are connecting with those
29:43
around them. It's light, it's fun, we have a
29:45
laugh. And it's not only are they
29:49
getting the physical benefits of, of actually stretching and,
29:52
and starting their day in a different way, but I know that
29:57
the golden nugget there is the, the mental health benefits
30:00
because they're not thinking about anything else other than
30:03
having awareness of their body and where they're at today.
30:09
And how do you say ripple? Because I maybe it maybe I've
30:16
seen too many sitcoms or like videos, but I can't help but
30:19
imagine the the blokes that would see, I don't know.
30:26
You're not doing that yoga shit, are you?
30:28
And then it requires the person who did it to go, yeah, by the
30:33
oath, I am. How do you see that?
30:36
It's almost like schoolyard, like hierarchy.
30:40
It's like you need strong characters to kind of bring in
30:43
those new tools and show them, hey, that this works.
30:47
And then they go, OK, maybe I'll give it a go.
30:50
It's that positive peer group pressure.
30:52
Yeah. Honestly, it's, you know, we
30:54
often start on site and you get, you know, maybe 90%, eighty, 90%
31:00
in there who are going OK and you know there there's a few
31:03
that are standing back going. I'm not having a part of any of
31:05
that. Yoga.
31:09
But what we find is that those that 10% look like the odd ones
31:15
out. Yeah.
31:16
So it becomes this positive peer group pressure.
31:18
And then they might get in there and they'll do one move and then
31:20
they'll come and do another. And, and you know, when we're
31:24
going back to sites on a regular basis, it's the, the constant
31:28
conversation that's happening on site.
31:30
We might be going fortnightly and the constant conversation is
31:32
always at yoga this week, you know, because they feel those
31:37
benefits. And more often than not, there
31:40
is more people who are actually taking part than those who just
31:46
can't. And I, and to be honest, I feel
31:48
like it's, it's probably ego. And particularly in that
31:51
environment, they just can't let themselves in case.
31:53
And I think it probably comes down to in case they find that
31:56
they can't do a particular pose. But for us and for me, it's
32:01
always been about, I know the benefits of yoga.
32:04
I know how great it can be, not not only physically, but also
32:07
mentally. And for me, it was about, let's
32:09
take this to where they are. Let's make them where they're
32:12
at. I know that most tradies are
32:14
never going to step, step foot in a yoga studio.
32:17
So how can we take it to them? How can we keep it light?
32:20
How can we keep it fun and make sure that they they get those
32:23
benefits from it as well? And it's met well.
32:27
It's been amazing. It is absolutely one of the
32:30
most, you know, most sought after of the the services that
32:35
we offer. It's something that everyone
32:37
loves. And I think, you know, just
32:39
seeing a whole bunch of tradies in high views and hard hats and
32:43
boots doing a yoga is it's something that just grabs
32:47
everyone's attention. I think there's an element of
32:49
that, yeah. It's fun to be a part of, yeah.
32:52
Yeah. I want to do a little bit of a,
32:56
I guess, thought experiment. Are you able to imagine?
33:00
You rock up, Obviously you wouldn't know him, but you rock
33:03
up to a work site and you're going to do the Healthy Trading
33:08
Project and Dale's there. How do you think he would have
33:13
responded all the way back in 2009?
33:17
Am I allowed to swear? Yeah.
33:18
You know, I think he'd probably tell you, right.
33:22
So I'm not doing that fun. Yeah.
33:27
He probably would have been the one one of those ones who's
33:29
like. Yeah.
33:32
But, you know, I think he also would have been one of those,
33:36
one of those leaders who would have probably brought everyone
33:39
along for the ride. Yeah, once he realised the
33:41
benefits of it and he would have had everyone in there doing the
33:45
same thing. Yeah, with the way you described
33:48
them, they're, they're some of the most, I've got 3 kids.
33:52
And the trait of doing your own thing, regardless of the
33:58
abrasiveness, I think it's something you got to protect.
34:02
And as beautiful as it is, when somebody says I'm not doing
34:06
that, like I, I quite find that con endearing because they're
34:09
being themselves. But at the same time, it's that
34:11
same person that when they say it, oh, this works all right,
34:15
I'm going to do it. Why won't you do it?
34:17
You too. You too cool for us kind of
34:20
thing. Like it sounds like he.
34:23
Yeah, he would have played both sides of the fence.
34:25
But no, at the start, yes, at the end, but bringing people
34:30
along. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:33
Now nuts and bolts of healthy trading project.
34:38
Someone's someone's struggling at work.
34:40
There's oh, sorry, they're struggling in life and they're
34:42
at work and you come in. How does it improve that
34:47
person's what? What's the pathway that they're
34:49
going to follow to I guess one improve?
34:52
Let's assume that they don't need crisis.
34:55
How does how does it improve their position?
34:58
I think at an individual level, yeah, what we're focusing on is,
35:03
is how do we have that person showing up both at work and at
35:09
home as their absolute best self.
35:12
And for us that we get there through what we're doing, I
35:20
guess the the boundaries that we set for the things that are
35:23
really important to us. So, you know, for exercise,
35:27
first and foremost, I know exercise has always been my go
35:30
to and it's something that I need to keep me in a healthy
35:33
space. So making sure that people are
35:36
getting a level of movement and exercise that supports them
35:41
physically and mentally. We look at nutrition, what
35:46
they're eating, how that's affecting their mood, their
35:48
focus, their attention, you know, their energy levels.
35:52
We talk about mindset. How are they dealing with the
35:57
pressure and the stress of life, You know, not just at work, but
36:01
at home, They've often got competing priorities, the
36:04
financial pressures, all of those things.
36:06
And, and what practises are they, I guess, are they putting
36:08
in place to help them better cope with those pressures?
36:11
And, and that's where we use the, the mindfulness or breath
36:15
work or meditation to help support that.
36:19
We look at sleep and how important that recovery is.
36:25
I think we tend to put sleep last and we, we focus on sleep
36:31
once we've got everything else done that we think we need to
36:33
get done for the day. And I really feel like we need
36:36
to flip that narrative and we need to make sleep a priority.
36:39
And because it's when we're getting enough sleep that we're
36:42
actually recovered and able to perform better the next day.
36:47
And then sun and play are the two other things that we talk
36:50
about. No play, that social connection,
36:53
engaging with people, you know, keeping it light, no routine, no
36:57
structure, no outcome, just doing whatever it is because you
36:59
enjoy that activity. And then, you know, the
37:02
importance of sun and vitamin D and, and how that impacts our,
37:06
you know, our immune system, It keeps us healthy and it's, and
37:09
it also I think supports our mood.
37:11
So we've, we've focused very much, I guess, to date on, on
37:16
those elements and that individual well being and how we
37:20
support those people to actually come to, to work and be the best
37:25
version of themselves at work. But then also and, and also then
37:29
that impacts on how they, I guess, interact with the the
37:32
people around them and the people in their team.
37:34
But then also allowing them to show up at home and be the best
37:37
version of themselves, whether that's with, you know, as a
37:40
husband, a wife, a mum, a dad and being that best version of
37:45
themselves for their family. Yeah, that individual, I want to
37:49
get to the the group aspect as well, but that individual level.
37:54
Something that else you mentioned in your Ted talk is
37:58
that you rode from Canberra to Brisbane that way, 1600
38:02
kilometres and you're stopping at every Lifeline clinic office,
38:08
yeah, office on the way. And you, you said, it sticks
38:14
with me because I can remember the the eyes of somebody else
38:17
that I spoke to at a talk early on with AFRA, but somebody came
38:22
up and they said to you for words.
38:24
I can't remember them clearly, but it's there's not help like
38:28
this out there. Is there really help out there?
38:29
Is there really help out there? I mean, that moves you because
38:34
that's somebody in a your helpless situation.
38:39
Yeah. How have you seen the Healthy
38:43
Tradie Project change people like that, where they've gone
38:49
from not knowing what to do to just having a little bit and
38:56
then hopefully. Yeah.
39:00
I think one of the biggest things that me sharing my story
39:06
and sharing Dale's story, one of the biggest things that it does
39:09
is I feel like it gives permission almost for other
39:15
people to share their own. And this is something that I
39:19
often find if I go into a workplace and I share that
39:22
story, the amount of mostly men who come and speak to me
39:26
afterwards and straight up say I lost this person or I lost that
39:33
person or I experienced this. And it's almost like it's giving
39:37
them permission to be vulnerable.
39:39
It's giving them permission to share and drop that facade, drop
39:44
those walls and just, you know, have that conversation.
39:49
So, yeah, I feel like that's that's probably a big part of
39:53
it. And then I feel like the other
39:54
part of it is it just allows people to really sit and kind of
39:59
look inside. And I'll probably look in and
40:01
look at their own life and go, well, OK, what are the things
40:03
that I need to change here? You know of that whole wheel,
40:07
You know what's just one thing that I can I can focus on and I
40:11
can do differently to I guess, help me be a better person.
40:20
And I think what you're doing is, I mean, it's incredible on
40:26
an individual lens. Like you, like you say, when you
40:31
see people, their shoulders relax in real time and they come
40:34
up and share with you what they've been through.
40:38
It's, it's so tangible. The amount of, even though it's
40:42
just so little, the amount of cathartic release that gives
40:45
them because it speaks it into existence.
40:47
They realise they're not crazy, for lack of a better term, or
40:51
they're not alone. And what you're doing as well.
40:54
I, I think it, it's, it's a, it's a part of the world that
41:00
where if you are able to get what you want done, it will
41:06
permeate through society because some of these people are the
41:10
ones that a lot of people look to.
41:14
They're the ones that when things get rough, the strong
41:17
figureheads are around. It's like, what are they doing?
41:20
I need to attach and if they're the ones that are also saying,
41:25
hey, make sure you get some sleep, make sure you do this,
41:29
make sure you do that. I don't know.
41:30
It just holds a bit more weight in some people's eyes.
41:35
Yeah, that ripple effect is huge.
41:37
And I think that's what, you know, then goes on to obviously
41:41
have an effect on others and have an effect on a team and a
41:44
workplace and you know, where you've got people that are
41:46
coming in and, and you know, I mean, and I say again, I come
41:50
back to construction, it's an industry that relies on people
41:53
and we need to look after those people if we're going to be
41:58
successful and we're going to have longevity.
42:00
And, and I think for blue collar workers, particularly to have
42:03
longevity in their career, they need to look after themselves.
42:07
They need to look after their body.
42:09
If they get to a point in time in their life that, you know,
42:12
this doesn't work, all that hurts, all this hurts, it's then
42:15
has an impact on their ability to earn an income.
42:18
And that can then have obviously a, a greater impact on their
42:21
mental health as well. And, you know, if they're a
42:23
provider for their family. And I think these are the sorts
42:26
of sorts of stories that I hear from different people.
42:29
And, you know, sometimes you get those, you know, the, the
42:31
18/19/20 year old who are, you know, straight up in the
42:35
industry who are invincible. Nothing's ever happened to them.
42:40
You know, you then might get the the 30 something year old who
42:43
has her family, who has a mortgage and, you know, may have
42:46
gone through an injury at some point in time and understands
42:49
the importance of keeping themselves healthy.
42:52
And you get a real mix in the older generation.
42:56
You get those that are, Nah, never done that, never gonna
42:59
even try it. You know, they're the old
43:01
school. But then I've also had, and I, I
43:04
never forget it, a gentleman who was at a precast, precast
43:09
concrete factory and he was in, you know, probably in his late
43:12
50s. He'd been out of work for a
43:14
period of time. And they, they, they gave him an
43:17
opportunity. And he said to me after the
43:19
session, he said, you know, and he told me his story and he'd
43:23
come back to work. And he said, you know, you've
43:25
just made me realise how important it is for me to be
43:27
able to look after my body. And he said, you know, can you
43:30
print all those poses so I can put them up on the factory wall
43:33
so that I don't forget them? But you know, for him it was
43:36
about how do I stay in the best shape I can to be able to
43:40
continue doing what I love for as long as I can.
43:44
So it's a mix, it's a real, it's a real mix within, I guess the,
43:48
the demographic that we work with.
43:50
But I think it's, it's starting to change.
43:52
And I think people are starting to realise that, you know, it's
43:55
important to look after not only yourself, but then I guess those
44:00
around you and the environment we create at work.
44:03
It is a bit of a, a narrative twist, isn't it?
44:07
It's like trying to help people see the reason that they're
44:11
doing it. And it might not be as immediate
44:15
as the alternative, but it's in terms of if you want to look
44:18
after these people, if you want to look after your ability to do
44:22
this, you need to play a bit of a longer game and a bit of a
44:26
smarter game. And I think some people have.
44:30
I know Benny, the way he's talking about nervous system
44:33
health that seems to be resonating quite well with
44:36
people just like a lens, and it seems to be very similar to what
44:40
you're the wheel that you're talking about.
44:41
Just putting it in practical terms.
44:43
And I think that's really important because it can be, and
44:48
I mean this because I I am as airy fairy as they come.
44:51
It can like mental health can be as like existential and and it
44:56
can all be there for you to like question and ponder and think,
44:59
but sometimes it's just really good to go.
45:03
Let's just focus on like the practical stuff for the moment
45:06
and then we'll get to the get to the other stuff.
45:10
Healthy trading project 0 blue collar suicides.
45:14
That's the mission. What does that look like?
45:20
How do you get there? I think from the industry,
45:24
there's a lot that needs to shift in terms of in terms of
45:28
culture and in terms of focus on well being.
45:31
I think as an industry, you know, we do a great a great job
45:35
at focusing on safety and the you know, the physical, I guess,
45:40
aspects of safety. What I want to do is shine a
45:43
spotlight on health, health and well being.
45:46
You know, it's WHS for a reason, but I think we forget the H in
45:50
in between. So I think for me, it's about
45:53
how we really shine a spotlight on well being and then the the
45:56
flow on effect that that has to safety on site.
45:59
And when we have people that are actually, you know, in a better
46:04
place from a health and well being perspective, it supports
46:09
our industry in not only having a safer industry, but having,
46:13
you know, retaining, retaining people in the industry and, and
46:18
just overall building a workplace or an environment or
46:22
an industry that people feel happy and comfortable to come
46:26
and work in. But it's, it's a big shift.
46:29
It's a big, I think as an industry it's very much, you
46:35
know, if you're not working, you're not being productive.
46:37
Like if I can't see you out there on the tools, then you're
46:39
not being productive. And you know, the 6-6 or seven
46:42
day a week, you know, working conditions, it's it's got to be
46:47
in the past. We've got to start providing
46:50
people time for life. We've got to start giving people
46:52
the opportunity to really focus on health and well being.
46:55
So that we do have, you know, we do have AI guess a healthier and
46:59
happier workforce. Got to let the concrete set.
47:02
Yeah, that's a good one. How can people help drive that?
47:10
Like help help the Healthy Trading Project or maybe help in
47:13
their everyday lives with the same mission as the Healthy
47:16
Trading Project. Yeah.
47:18
I think, I think for certainly for business owners out there, I
47:21
think it's, it's recognising that, you know, people are your
47:26
most important asset and ensuring that they are I guess
47:31
valued, they're times valued. You're supporting them from a
47:36
well being perspective. I think as you know, as
47:41
individuals, I think sometimes, you know, the masses can, can
47:45
speak the loudest. So I think as individuals then,
47:50
you know, having a voice and allowing that to be heard about
47:55
what you need, speaking up and letting, I guess letting
47:58
employers, letting workplaces know what it is that you need.
48:02
And I think at an individual level, it is just having the
48:07
conversations, you know, being open to, to talk about mental
48:11
health, no different, you know, no different to physical health
48:14
because that's, you know, the 2GO hand in hand and the two
48:17
blend and we can't have one without the other.
48:20
And we just need to normalise those conversations.
48:23
I agree with you, Pip, before we wrap up, and I don't, it just
48:29
came to me, but I think it's the right question to finish with
48:32
because I think if somebody's still listening to this, it
48:35
means that your stories resonated with them for whatever
48:40
reason. But if you could go back to
48:46
2009, what do you think you'd want to tell Dale?
48:58
I love him and I only wish he'd let me in, but he made the
49:11
choice that he did and I'll always love him and I'll ensure
49:23
that his legacy always lives on. You're a special person, Pip,
49:29
and you're doing special work. And I've no doubt that you've
49:34
already helped people like Dale, and I hope you can be proud of
49:38
yourself. And I've, I know, I know.
49:44
I don't know him, but I know based on what you've told me and
49:47
what I can see that there's no other way he couldn't be proud
49:51
of you. So thank you.
49:54
Thank you very much. Thank you.