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Learn How To Get What You Want: The Art of Negotiating with FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss · QUESTION EVERYTHING

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  Speaker 4: I have a very special guest and co host here
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  Speaker 4: with me today. Her name is Nicole Benham. She's the
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: creator and founder of Beyond the Interview. If you haven't
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: seen that Instagram handle, it is quite literally my favorite
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: Instagram handle. To follow on all of the interweb on Instagram.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: You know, when I do podcasts, people will say, like,
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  Speaker 4: who's the one person you have to follow? I always
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: say beyond the interview, And today we are so lucky
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  Speaker 4: to have her voice here because we are interviewing Chris Boss,
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  Speaker 4: the FBI negotiator. Nick is also one of my dearest friends.
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  Speaker 4: Before we head into talking with Chris, who I know
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  Speaker 4: is a friend of yours at this point, which is
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  Speaker 4: very cool. What is your experience with negotiation?
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  Speaker 5: Is it positive? Is it negative? Like what comes up
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  Speaker 5: when you hear that word.
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  Speaker 6: It used to scare me because I didn't know how
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  Speaker 6: to necessarily get what I want, especially in when things
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  Speaker 6: were male dominated or even you know, I'll be honest
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  Speaker 6: with you because I've had this conversation with you privately,
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  Speaker 6: even with women where I didn't know how to negotiate,
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  Speaker 6: where there was you know, potential jealousy on either end,
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  Speaker 6: or or you know, maybe a little cattiness or a
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  Speaker 6: little clickiness in the workplace or.
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  Speaker 7: Whatever it was.
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  Speaker 6: The word negotiation seemed like something that I really needed
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  Speaker 6: to work at. So now that I'm equipped with the
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  Speaker 6: right tools because I've been you know, I've been hosting
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  Speaker 6: Chris Voss's room, and he's a mentor to me.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, you've learned so much from him.
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  Speaker 6: I've learned so much from him. It's so much easier
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  Speaker 6: than you think it is. And I think if women
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  Speaker 6: read this book and followed his way, oh my god, you.
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  Speaker 7: Could have the world at your feet. Even in relationships.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, I use it with my on my mom
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  Speaker 6: when I have a problem. I'm like, sounds like you're
• 2:48
  Speaker 6: worried that you won't have grandkids.
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  Speaker 7: He gave that line to me.
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  Speaker 6: Really yeah, I'm like, she's you know, she wants me
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  Speaker 6: to get out there and find someone.
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  Speaker 7: And I'm like, I'm not gonna settle.
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  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, so you know, but I have to make
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  Speaker 6: it about her, and so then the conversation becomes different.
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  Speaker 7: You sort of de escalate the situation.
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  Speaker 6: Right, and in every situation, in every in every field,
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  Speaker 6: it works.
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  Speaker 4: So I have to and it's sort of embarrassing to
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  Speaker 4: admit I feel completely unprepared in negotiations. I feel like
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  Speaker 4: I'm a decent communicator and I listen well, but when
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  Speaker 4: it comes to negotiating, I am not it. So I
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  Speaker 4: am really looking forward to learning from him today.
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  Speaker 6: That's shocking to me because you're such a powerful communicator.
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  Speaker 5: I'm not a good negotiator. I get nervous.
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  Speaker 6: But do you not feel you don't feel like you
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  Speaker 6: have all the power because you're the talent.
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  Speaker 4: Oh my god, we like there is so much to
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  Speaker 4: get into there No, not at all. I feel really nervous,
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  Speaker 4: and I'm sick of feeling nervous about it.
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  Speaker 5: I think it's time to knowledge is power.
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  Speaker 4: If I can learn tools from Chris, I can walk
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  Speaker 4: in feeling confident instead of scared. Right.
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  Speaker 6: Well, if you feel that way, I can't imagine how
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  Speaker 6: many other people feel that way.
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  Speaker 7: So I'm so excited to do this.
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  Speaker 5: Let's stick in.
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  Speaker 7: Let's go.
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  Speaker 5: The art of negotiation.
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  Speaker 4: It might terrify you or thrill you, whether it's a
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  Speaker 4: higher salary, lower utility bill, or even a late checkout
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  Speaker 4: from a hotel, or even in relationships. Negotiating has a
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  Speaker 4: way of making the stakes seem so high. My next
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: guest says, if you want someone to say yes to something,
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: then you're in negotiation.
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  Speaker 6: Chris Voss spent twenty four years as a lead hostage
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  Speaker 6: negotiator with the FBI. He spoke with bank robbers and terrorists,
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  Speaker 6: and it was there that he crafted the skills that
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  Speaker 6: he teaches now in the business world as the.
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  Speaker 7: CEO of the Black Swan Group.
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  Speaker 6: He also has a hugely popular masterclass on the topic.
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  Speaker 4: Chris argues that mastering the art of negotiating it's all
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: about empathy and connection, and despite popular opinion, the most
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: aggressive person in the room isn't always the most successful. Chris,
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  Speaker 4: I heard you say that you became interested in hostage
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  Speaker 4: negotiation during your time at the FBI because you said
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  Speaker 4: it looked easy, given that there were sometimes life and
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: death situations.
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  Speaker 5: What in the world made it look doable to you?
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it just look like they talk to people.
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  Speaker 1: I figured, how hard could that be? I could talk
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  Speaker 1: to terrorists, anybody talk, right. But that's a great thing
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  Speaker 1: about stuff that some people make look easy.
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  Speaker 8: It's really difficult. It's really in depth.
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  Speaker 1: So it ended up being way more interesting and in
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  Speaker 1: depth and gratifying than ever thought.
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  Speaker 8: It would be.
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  Speaker 5: When you say gratifying, what do you mean what was
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  Speaker 5: gratifying about it?
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you know, you step in the middle of
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  Speaker 1: a story that's raging and try to settle things down.
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  Speaker 8: I mean, that's pretty cool. If you could do it.
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  Speaker 1: And really there were always at least two storms that
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  Speaker 1: were raging, you know, the crisis, and then, as one
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  Speaker 1: of my colleague Steve Nmono used to like to say,
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  Speaker 1: the crisis within the crisis, I mean, command would be
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  Speaker 1: a mess.
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  Speaker 8: You know.
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  Speaker 1: The only people that ever really trained for these situations
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  Speaker 1: where the negotiators in the SWAT guys command never trained,
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  Speaker 1: so they were never prepared, so they would always be
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  Speaker 1: rattled and shook up, and you'd have to settle them
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  Speaker 1: down too. If you can get in the middle of
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  Speaker 1: that and settle it down, then it's very satisfying.
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  Speaker 5: Even your voice is calming.
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  Speaker 6: I know there's a tactic for that too, the FM
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  Speaker 6: radio DJ voice.
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  Speaker 7: We'll get to that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll get to that, Chris, Can anybody learn these skills?
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  Speaker 4: Is this truly learnable?
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  Speaker 8: You know?
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  Speaker 1: I'm in a school of thought that everything is learning now.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what makes you learn faster or slower.
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  Speaker 8: You know, we're all really a blank slate when we're born.
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  Speaker 1: Daniel Coyle wrote a book called The Talent Code that
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: contends that there's no such thing as a prodigy, that
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: the prodigyes just got interested in stuff before anybody noticed,
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  Speaker 1: and they didn't notice.
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  Speaker 8: Till they get good at it.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm definitely a believer that everything is learnable.
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  Speaker 8: Now, what sort of barriers are you, as.
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  Speaker 1: An individual putting up into how quickly you learn?
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  Speaker 8: Yeah, I don't know. You got to be coachable.
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  Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of humility because you got you
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  Speaker 1: gotta be willing to be wrong. I stole a phrase
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  Speaker 1: from a guy new in DC. He used to always
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  Speaker 1: when somebody catch him being wrong, he'd say, I reserve
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  Speaker 1: the right to be smarter today than I was yesterday.
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  Speaker 1: So as soon as your emphasis is on learning, then yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's learnable. I mean, and then you pick it up
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  Speaker 1: and life becomes much more of an adventure.
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  Speaker 4: You know that book you mentioned, The Talent Code. There's
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  Speaker 4: a part in there that changed my life because he
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  Speaker 4: talks about being okay with being uncomfortable, that there's this
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  Speaker 4: middle ground when you try something new that feels so
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  Speaker 4: unc comfortable, and if you can push through that part,
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  Speaker 4: then you can get good.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, discomfort is a learning accelerator. If you're learning and
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  Speaker 1: you're not uncomfortable, you're not learning fast enough.
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  Speaker 5: That's great.
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  Speaker 6: Everything's so quotable that he says, can you tell us
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  Speaker 6: about a day on the job that really shaped you?
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  Speaker 1: For one of the things that really shaped me because
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  Speaker 1: I went through Harvard Law School's negotiation course and to
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  Speaker 1: my knowledge, you know, I'm the only person that ever
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  Speaker 1: went through that wasn't a student period or wasn't and
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  Speaker 1: was an FBI agent, and I don't know any any
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  Speaker 1: other agents that went through. But I showed up, and
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  Speaker 1: I kind of, you know, I brought my hostage kidnapped
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  Speaker 1: bargaining skills, which are.
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  Speaker 8: They're pretty formidable skills. It's you know, it's.
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  Speaker 1: Pretty brutal stuff in a really soft, quiet way, and
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  Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I'm going to show up. And
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  Speaker 1: then I just started just just to take these Harvard
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  Speaker 1: Law School students to the cleaners, which is particularly delightful
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  Speaker 1: to me, you know, because I do not I didn't
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  Speaker 1: have the credentials. They're else their IQ A right, smarter IQ.
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  Speaker 1: They got these giant, big brains, a IQ's ten times
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  Speaker 1: as big as mine.
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  Speaker 8: I would never.
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  Speaker 1: Pass the l set the way they did, so I'm
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  Speaker 1: killing them. But then suddenly they stopped dealing with me,
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  Speaker 1: and that was a That was the first time I
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  Speaker 1: really came to learn that you could really win a
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  Speaker 1: negotiation and lose long term because people stop dealing with
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  Speaker 1: you if you if you're slaughter and everybody you talk
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: to pretty soon the messages stop talking to this guy.
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  Speaker 1: So you know about the third or fourth simulation, fourth
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: or fifth, it's getting around. I'm killing them. I mean
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  Speaker 1: I'd sit down with them and they just stare at me,
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  Speaker 1: not saying words, sit there horrified. Now I'm not making
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  Speaker 1: deals at all. And I had to rethink the approach,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: which is really the case, you know, in business negotiations,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: you know.
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  Speaker 8: In life.
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  Speaker 1: I mean like if you're slaughter on the other side,
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  Speaker 1: pretty soon everybody avoids you. And I really remember sitting
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  Speaker 1: there watching a Harvard Law schools to and just be
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: afraid to open their mouth. Wow, because dealing with me
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  Speaker 1: was going to be bad, And I thought, I have
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to rethink this.
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  Speaker 8: There's a problem.
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  Speaker 6: Here, is that when you realize negotiation is about collaboration, you.
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  Speaker 1: Know, I think it really started to at that point
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  Speaker 1: in time. I don't know that I fully understood how
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: much about collaboration it is. I mean, you know, one
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: of the books that I'm reading right now, not seeing
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Tallips's twenty twelve book Anti Fragile. He talks about
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: collaboration and he talks about it in two ways. He says,
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  Speaker 1: collaboration lays the groundwork for prosperity, and that's really what
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: great negotiation is about. Even when the other side doesn't
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: want to collaborate, how do you collaborate anyway? That was
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  Speaker 1: one of my differences on a philosophy with the Harvard guys,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: because the Harvard guys, and they still teach you to
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  Speaker 1: this date, they'll say, let's talk about the process, let's
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  Speaker 1: negotiate the process, and then we'll agree, we'll engage your process.
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  Speaker 8: We've agreed upon it.
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  Speaker 1: And I remember sitting there thinking, like, you know what,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I don't care what you think. I'm gonna engage in
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: my process no matter what you say. And you know,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: back then it was I'm gonna kick your ass. But now, like,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: no matter what the other person on the other side
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: of the table is. For the Black Swan group, we're
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: going collaborative.
• 11:22
  Speaker 8: Whether you like it or not.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: If you're gonna deal with this, it's going to turn
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: into a collaborative process. Even if you think were the
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: enemy or the adversary, we're still going to collaborate.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: I love that you say it like a mob boss,
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: but you like, we will work together. What you're saying
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: and how you're saying it is so funny. I'm glad
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: you mentioned the black Swan group. Did you segue into
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: the private sector because you felt like you could make
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: more of an impact?
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and it was new, It was completely
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: new territory. The whole time I was in the FBI,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: we were always plowing new ground, if you will. We're
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: always pushing into new areas. You know. We were when
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the First World Trade Center bombing happened. We were told
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: there was no terrorism in the United States, and we
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: were saying, well, you know, yes there is, and we're
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: on them. But it was, you know, going a new direction.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And so I've done all the security work I wanted
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: to do. I wanted to leave all the Kidnapp negotiation.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: I want to leave it all behind and go in
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: a new area. And so bringing this stuff into the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: private sector. There isn't another company that does what we do.
• 12:25
  Speaker 8: And it's funny.
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  Speaker 1: Our director of business development, David Johnson, who's brilliant, brilliant,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: she actually thought the job posting was a hoax. She's like,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I never heard of a company that does this. It's
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: got to be a joke. And now she's happier and
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: making more money than she ever expected them.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: It's a win.
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a When when did you realize that all
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: the work that you were doing in the FBI could
• 12:46
  Speaker 6: be applied to everyone. It didn't just have to be
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: you know, terrorists and hostage takers because and I know
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: this just from working with you and seeing the impact
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: of your work. Parents use these tax with their kids.
• 13:01
  Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: When I first started this, when I volunteered on suicide
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Highline way back when, my gut instinct was this is
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: just human dynamics, you know, their frames. Emotional intelligent intelligence
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: wasn't out there back then, so we didn't know. But
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: I really felt like I got the green light again
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: after the Harvard experience. You know some of the people
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I worked up up with closely up there, Sheilah Heen,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: you know, the author of Difficult Conversation. It's a great
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: book I must read. You know, her husband, John Richardson,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: a couple of other people, you know, they said, you're
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: doing the same stuff we are. The stakes are different,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: but the dynamics are the same, and you know, when
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: they kind of validated my thinking then then and I
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: knew that we're going to take it into the private sector.
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  Speaker 4: Chris, I want to get into a topic that we've
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: spoken about it on Clubhouse, and I have this feeling
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: that it pisses you off, but I want to get
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: into it anyways and see what you think.
• 14:04
  Speaker 8: All right, that's an interesting setup.
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: So you say, great negotiation requires connection to intuition, and
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: whether it's nature or nurture, women possess stronger intuition than
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: men do.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: So a lot of the core.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Skills that you teach in your masterclass, when I watched
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: it seemed to me actually came pretty natural to women
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: in many ways. And yet every single study I read
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: says that women are behind in negotiation skills and success.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: Does the article say that, yeah, So, like a twenty
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: twenty study found sixty percent of women said they never
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: negotiated overpay even wow, and then when they do, well,
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: we'll get into this, but there's a whole likability factor.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: So why do you think the majority of women are
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: not negotiating bad guidance?
• 14:49
  Speaker 8: Mostly?
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: Okay?
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: And then negotiation still very much has the or around
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: it of being a jerk. You know post a child
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: for negotiation in the United States is don't try Trump.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: And you know, women go, I don't want to be
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. You know, I don't want to be I
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: don't want to be a jerk. I don't want to
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: be a full time jerk. And in their mind when
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: people prepare mentally, we've asked this question a lot. Everybody
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: expects mentally to prepare for the guy on the other
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: side of the table that's going to scream, pound the table,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: call names, and whether again nature and nurture. Women don't
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: want to be jerk shirks. They feel like, instinctively there's
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: something wrong with that.
• 15:29
  Speaker 8: So by and.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Large they generally it's it's been a tough enough for
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: us to crack.
• 15:34
  Speaker 8: On getting women to buy the book.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Now that being said, the cool thing about Masterclass is
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it's the first time that any of our demographics skewed
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: heavily in favor of women. Yeah, like I can go
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: on a YouTube channel, or we can go on our
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: distribution list. All of our other marketing data is that
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the representation of women is extremely low. But I know
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that a Masterclass excuse heavily in favor of women. So
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, now we're onto something here. Maybe
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: it's the context. I mean, there's there's a lot of
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: other things that come into play that I think make
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: women leary. The bad negotiation advice, you know, how to
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: get how do you get ways to be jerk by
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: and large, and then there's that out there that says
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: women are punished for negotiat and I've been asked that
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: question flat out and what, Chris Fass, what's your answer
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: to that? I said, women are punished for bad negotiating
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: tactics more than men are. But that is not my
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: problem because I don't teach bad negotiation tactics. So the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: fact that that dynamic exists probably does. We're actively combating.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: So if they for whatever reason, whatever we've got to
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: do to get them to to get their attention, emotional intelligence, bace,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: negotiation on, you know, come over, come over to come
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: to the light, come over to the good side.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: I just got our analytics and ninety eight percent of
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: our audience is female.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: I'm pretty smart.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: So you can see Never Split the Difference his book
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: right behind him in this in this video, and I
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: bought the book.
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: We need all of you to buy Never.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: Split the difference, mostly because I really want women to
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: I want to change this whole structure.
• 17:17
  Speaker 6: I tell every woman I know to buy it. Every
• 17:20
  Speaker 6: woman something. When you were saying that, you know, there's
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: a lot of bad negotiation advice out there. One thing
• 17:26
  Speaker 6: that comes to mind was they taught us yes oriented questions,
• 17:31
  Speaker 6: you know, to get someone to say yes, yes, yes,
• 17:34
  Speaker 6: And I was like, Oh, that's the way. And then
• 17:36
  Speaker 6: when I met Chris, I learned about no oriented questions
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: and I'm like, what's that?
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: What is that?
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: I used it? I'll let him explain it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's getting it's getting the answer no and steady yes.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I mean it's it's ridiculously simple, just changing your questions.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Instead of saying do you agree, say do you disagree?
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: And one of the things I love about this the
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: real spark, you know, an important spark I read start
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: with back in two thousand and two, and Jim Camp's
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: book is not getting the other side to say no,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: but tell him it's okay to say no, not intentionally
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: trying to get him to say no.
• 18:09
  Speaker 8: So there's a lot about the book.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: That I liked, and I'm sharing it with the other
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: hostage negotiators and the woman who's in charge of the
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: hostage negotiation team Pittsburgh FBI Marty Evil Seize superstar Pittsburgh
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: PD loves her and has it has made her immediate
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: supervisor jealous, so he's going to remove her from the
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: negotiation team. She's telling me the story and she says,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: you know, did I do what you're talking about? And
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: start with no, like, all right, well, how to go down?
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: So he calls her into his office. She knows in
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: advance that he's going to remove her from the hostage
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: negotiation team. It's an additional duty, he can claims she's
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: not paying attention to her day job or investigations.
• 18:45
  Speaker 8: Nothing anybody could do.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: She looks him in the eyes, she says, do you
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: want the FBI to be embarrassed?
• 18:51
  Speaker 8: Now?
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I never would have had the courage to ask that question.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: I heard she lays that out, and I'm like, Marty, Jesus,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, how'd you have to I'm thinking,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: how did that? Scares the hell out of me? How
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: did you have the courage the answer? Because it sounds
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: so manipulated, and this is the power dynamics is completely
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: against her. It's a male supervisor, male jealous bureaucratic pencil neck.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I could go on and on and on
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: about this type of guy, and I figured he's going
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: to explode instead, when she says do you want the
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: FBI to be embarrassed?
• 19:22
  Speaker 8: Which is an.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Obvious setup question, he leans back in his desk and
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: he does one of these, which is steepling into what
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: people do when they feel large and in charge. So
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: she has disarmed him, and then she follows it up
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: with a what we now refer to as a calibrated question,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: again leaving him completely in control. She says, what do
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: you want me to do? After he said no to
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: the first question, he just says no.
• 19:47
  Speaker 8: Comfortable.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: She says, what do you want me to do? He says,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you know what, just just don't let this stuff interfere.
• 19:53
  Speaker 8: With your investigations. Now, now, get out of my office.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: So she walked in there to get fired, and she
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: walked out intact based on a no one into question,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: and I went, Holy con We got to experiment with this,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: and so we have been pushing this and trying it
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: out in so many formats. We your reason to believe
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: that your effectiveness will increase by no less than twenty
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: three percent if you just change your questions from yes
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: questions and no questions, it's insane. And it really started
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Marty dropped the thought that gave us a chance to
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: run with it.
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: That's a really easy switch to make, too.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and what's the psychology behind it? Because people feel
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: more powerful if they're saying no to you?
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: I think, well, I think people feel protected. They feel
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: safe and protected when they say no.
• 20:41
  Speaker 8: I mean they.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Feel adult, like a couple of things that kids learn early.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: On a pretty good chance, the first word a child
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: is going to learn is no, because that's all they've
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: grown ups say to them now, and so you're modeled
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: that that's something adults say. And then you protect yourself,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: you feel safe and other triggering events. And my son
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: runs my company, Brandon Voss Bryant, negotiator, President of Blackswil Group.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: But when he was seventeen, he'd go, Dad, can I
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: and I go now before he.
• 21:14
  Speaker 8: Finished the sentence.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: But then after having said no, I'd be willing to
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: list and I go, So what was it that you wanted?
• 21:21
  Speaker 8: Then?
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Because I felt by saying no, I protected myself. I'm
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: not being hustled, being let in for anything. Now I
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: can actually list. I think that's a big part of it.
• 21:30
  Speaker 6: I think it makes people feel like they're in control.
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: It's a great tactic, that's what it is.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: Okay, So we have to talk about likability because it's
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: the one thing that confuses me. There's a book called
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: The Likability Trap. It was actually the first podcast guest
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: I had because her book changed my life. I kept
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: feeling so frustrated at work and she really lays out
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: how the system is really the problem and not you
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: in many ways a as women. So there's a stiff
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: social penalty for women when they ask for what they
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: need in many ways at work, and they say that.
• 22:03
  Speaker 8: Kind up on how they ask.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: If they're trained by the Black Swan group, there's no penalties.
• 22:08
  Speaker 8: They get what they asked for.
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: Okay, So this is what I need.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: I want to like go through almost like a fake
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: negotiation with you, because A I don't know how to
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: ask and B I don't want to lose my social
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: capital when I do ask, right, Okay, So should we
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: just bounce this in?
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: Should we just do a scenario?
• 22:27
  Speaker 8: Oh you want to test me? Huh?
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: Okay, No, I want to I more want to learn.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: So my first real job in LA was at like
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: a digital media network, and I found out I was
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: getting paid less than some of the other hosts there.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: And I had been there for about two years, so
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: it was time to go in and talk and renegotiate. Anyways,
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: and this guy who ran a VC in San Francisco
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: is the only person I knew that had any sort
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: of experience, and I asked him what to do.
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: By the way, it was like a first date, and
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: I had no business asking you for it.
• 23:00
  Speaker 7: I want to date. I was on a date.
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: I'm like, I don't like you, but maybe I.
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: Could get some information out of the perfect time to
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: ask you.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: Right, So he said to me, he said, go in
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: and say, I really want this company to succeed. I'm
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: so invested in it. I want it to be number one,
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: and I want to help it succeed. But I'm feeling
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: financial stress. Can you pay me x so that I
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: can show up to work every day and really give
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: it my best and my full amount of, you know,
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: like brain power, so that I'm not thinking about how
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: am I going to pay my rent this month?
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: Did it work?
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: No? Oh, okay, let's hear this, So what do you
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: think about that?
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: All right?
• 23:41
  Speaker 8: Well, you're in a ballpark.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, you probably probably would have if we to
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: coach you, to coach you to say something similar at
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: the beginning. You know, there's there's something called dynamic silence
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: where you got to you gotta stop talking. You're ask
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: was a yes oriented question, So shouldn't have shouldn't go
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: on for that ask? You want to give the other
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: side see how much the other side is going to
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: come in your direction before you make the ask. And
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: so there's a way to make a ask, and you
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: know there's some other issues. So we to coach you
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: so that you got the race. But let's go back
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: to first, because you asked me about likability. So here's
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: the dynamic, and it's a subtle one but massively important.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: You want to be likable. You want to like the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: other side. The minute you need to be liked, you're
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: a hostage and they'll manipulate you. And the more you
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: genuinely like the other side, the more it will come
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: off in your demeanor and they will feel it and
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: they responded to it. Now, you've got to put yourself
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: in a position where you can genuinely like someone and
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: not agree, not take yourself hostage.
• 24:46
  Speaker 8: And I like you, so I got to agree.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, we actually had we had an internal session
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: on this just yesterday because another woman in our organization
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: is making massively great deals on our behalf. Then I
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: knew there was something to her entire approach, because her
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: approach was, look, I really like you. This is what
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: we have to have for this to be a great deal.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: They're going to make this great. This is you know,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: but we're going to walk you know. She had to
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: be very authentic about it, and we're breaking down exactly
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: what it is in her demeanor. And she's likable. She
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: likes the person she's dealing with. She's not taking hostage
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: to either dynamic. If he dislikes her, she's not going
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: to give in in order to maintain being liked. So
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: there's a real fine dynamic there. And being likable immediately
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: begins to increase your eyes. Now, it doesn't get you
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: all the way there, but being likable, also known as
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: being charming, is a smart move. It's a strategic advantage
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to make more deals and people want to deal with
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: you a longer time. Now your situation, you know, coach didn't.
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: Like my boss, which I think is it happens a lot.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: You got reason to detest somebody who's under paying you
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: because you're a woman. Now, that's hard to hide. And
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: when I was teaching at USC, I would frequently get questions.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm on a job and they pay women
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: lesson men, how are you pay? My first answer was okay,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to answer this like your dad. You
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: just told me that you're in an abusive relationship, and
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: how do I make the person be nice to me?
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: My answer to you is get out of that relationship.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: So if you're in a job that's known for paying
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: women less, let us coach you to get more money.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Let the black swe team coach you. And that's a
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: short term relationship at best. So start polishing up your
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: resume to take your value to where you're going to
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: get rewarded. You know, you talk about a media company,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: forty of the fortune five hundred is going to be
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: gone in ten years, gone extinct because of bad business
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: practices like paying women less.
• 26:55
  Speaker 8: That's a stupid idea.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: You pay for talent, and if you pay women less,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: there's a fundamental core value problem there, and you don't
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: deserve the hard workers they have.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: I learned that turnover is actually one of the largest
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: expenses for companies and they don't recognize it. So it
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: is beneficial to them to pay people more to retain talent.
• 27:18
  Speaker 8: Pay talent and nurture talent, you both.
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: It's a nice way of putting it.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: So many of our listeners are like twenty four to
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: thirty four, and so they're in their first jobs and
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: I think like ability, for at least for me, likability
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: was harder when I was younger. I don't care as
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: much now because I'm more comfortable in myself. But I
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: think specifically for women, when you're starting out, you really
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: want to be liked.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: So when you enter a.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Negotiation, especially in your first or second job, how much
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: room is there to negotiate because you really don't have
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: that much of a skill set either.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to hit it on a couple of
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: topics because being likable, having a presence, all of that stuff,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: for women, particularly when you're early on, is challenging. I'm
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: going to do shameless advertisement black swan group We've got
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: taught by one of our women instructors, Women's Power Out,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Sandy Hind, former hostage negotiator. She teaches for women and
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: she talks about these issues specifically, and a lot of
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: times you need you knows something different about the way
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Sandy says almost exactly the same stuff that I do,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: but it a lot of times it's just easier when
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: it comes out of a woman's mouth, and she's got
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: she got a lot of sorttle tools for negotiating for women.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: So I veered off on that women in their first jobs.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to your original negotiation. Here's
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: what you ask, how am I guaranteed to be in
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: projects that are critical to the strategic future of the organization?
• 28:54
  Speaker 8: And then shut up? Now that's real close to what
• 28:57
  Speaker 8: you said.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Because all bosses, all employers view employees is selfish because
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: when do you walk into the boss's office when you.
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: Want something that's interesting.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: And the girls, So you're conditioning your boss to think
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: of you as selfish because you ain't going in there
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: to see how he or she is doing. You going
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: in there because you want something?
• 29:20
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so should you? Should you do that before going
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: in to ask for something?
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: All of your interactions, whether it be annual reviews or
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: opening job scenarios to start with, how do I get
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: involved in projects that are critical to our strategic future
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: that does two things. You then become I'm us first,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I'm team first. I want to make everybody more successful.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Your boss is more comfortable around you. People want you
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: to work for them. Secondly, if you get on those
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: projects you're now now, you got to want this. If
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: you want to get ahead, you got to you gotta
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: be willing to get in the game. You're now on
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: the high visibility projects. You know, you can't want to
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: get paid more and have low visibility high If you
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: don't get it, you put them on notice that you're
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: going for and they're going to pay close attention to you. Now,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: the real point here is salary pays your bills, but
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: it doesn't advance your career. Your job in a negotiation
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: a business is to get a good salary, but really
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: map out your success because otherwise your success is an accident.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: And so start talking about what's it take to succeed here?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: How do people get ahead? And actually listen if you're
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: going to ask, this is the way you recruit unofficial
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: mentors like my probably my second mentor in the FBI,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: the woman who ran a hostage negotiation team in New York.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: You know I wanted to be a hostage negotiator. She
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: didn't care. I was unqualified. I mean I was ridiculously unqualified.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: And so I said what do I do? And she
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: told me, and I get it, and she was shocked.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: She said, I tell everybody what to do. They never
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: do it. If somebody in a position to tell you
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: what to do, like if you got reason to follow
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: their advice, follow their advice. Because also what happened after
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that is this woman looked out for me for the
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: rest of my career. Because I was smart enough to listen.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I did what she told me was good practice. Now
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of people in the organization going to give
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: you lousy advice. What's the difference. Never take directions from
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: somebody who hasn't been where you were going if they've
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: demonstrated that they know what they're talking about. Because I
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: got bad advice in the FBI too, but not in hindsight,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: not for people that had any reason to be giving
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: me advice on that topic. So go in there, ask
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: those questions, and follow the advice, because there are even
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: in a bad organization, there are people that will look
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: out for you.
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: I heard you use the word team, and I've talked
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: to you about this before, and you hear it all
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: the time because we're not taught that, Like I would
• 31:54
  Speaker 6: never learn.
• 31:55
  Speaker 7: How to be part of a team. I ask you
• 31:56
  Speaker 7: about that sometimes.
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: But how did you go from being, you know, the
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: lead guy in the FBI to learning how to be
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: a team player in the Black Swan group.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that's been a tough transition because I'm
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: sure I was pretty much of a diva in the
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: old days and probably still am to some degree. But
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: you know, I heard it enough times if you want
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: to go fast, go alone, you want to go far,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: go as a team. And then we really got taught
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: how to act as a team.
• 32:26
  Speaker 8: We got some coaching. I really began to.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: See the effect of how far we could get as
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: a team. And I still make a lot of mistakes,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: but I know in my bones that we're going to
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: go ten times as far as anybody else does because
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: we operate more as a team.
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: That's a great question.
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: I want to circle back to what Nicole talked about
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: at the beginning with the dj FM voice, because in
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: your masterclass you talk about mastering delivery, and I was
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: surprised to hear that you said, ditch the assertive voice.
• 32:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I feel like, especially for women, ditch the
• 33:01
  Speaker 6: assertive voice. It's crazy, Like, yeah, I feel like using
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: your femininity at least using my I feel like it
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: gets me farther out of this conversation with you all
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: the time.
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: See, my instinct is to be assertive. So it's really interesting.
• 33:13
  Speaker 7: I want to hear.
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: I want to hear the psychology behind it.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Well, there's everybody has a structure in our heads. Neuroscientists
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: argue whether it's mirror neurons or emotional resonance circuitry, it
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you call it.
• 33:30
  Speaker 8: It access same.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: If I have an assertive voice, it's going to cause
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you to be assertive back. We're going to go into
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: a downward spiral. And you know, sounding assertive is really satisfying.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: You know, it feels good when you sound assert and
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: it just doesn't land well with the other side ever, ever, ever, ever.
• 33:51
  Speaker 8: So that's the problem with the voice.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: You get what you want, but you stung the other
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: side enough that they don't get over being stung. They're
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: going to pay you back, and they're gonna pay you
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: back with interest. So even if you get your way,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: it's seductive because it felt good you got what you wanted.
• 34:07
  Speaker 8: You have no idea the amount of.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Lack of cooperation that is triggered as a result. So yeah,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: the softer voice. However, you can develop the softer voice
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: combination ways downward inflection. If you can downward inflect and
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: smile simultaneously, that genius.
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: So downward.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: A downward so an upward inflection would be this, and
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: a downward inflection would be this.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Right, And I'll give you trick to Sandy talking, because
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of women say, well, I don't have a
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: deep voice, I can't downward inflect. Those are two different things.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Sandy says, if you want your voice to inflect down
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: and tuck your chin when you want to inflect.
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: Down, that's good.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: And it also a fine line that women have with
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the late night FMDJ voices. They don't want to send
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: sound whispery or seductive. And when you're focusing, if you
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: can control it just by tugging your chin, then you
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: don't have that whispery problem. It's misinterpreted by bozo on
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: the other side of.
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: The type, but it's also misinterpreted by women too.
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: When I used to host, I mean we'll probably do
• 35:19
  Speaker 7: it again.
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: But when I hosted the Clubhouse Room, a lot of
• 35:22
  Speaker 6: women would give me feedback and they'd be like, is
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: it weird that the FM radio DJ voice arouses me?
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: And I'm like, no, I hear it every time. So
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: it's like, I mean, it gets misinterpreted.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: But you know, you know how horrible I find that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: That was Soul Street that made.
• 35:43
  Speaker 7: Me feel what I'm saying.
• 35:44
  Speaker 6: It's like, it's crazy, it really works, It's really crazy. Okay,
• 35:50
  Speaker 6: So I want you always say, if you're explaining, you're losing, right, Okay,
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: what does that look like?
• 35:59
  Speaker 7: And why are you losing if you do it?
• 36:02
  Speaker 8: Yeah?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: You know, and we got that from Ronald Wright, so
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Republican a Democrat. You got to respect the guy's emotional intelligence.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: You know, explaining is your value proposition or why people
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: should do something. And the problem is explaining makes the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: other side feel like you're putting them in an inferior position. Here,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: I'm smarter than you. Let me lay it out for you.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: This is how you should see things, and so it
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: doesn't land well even if you're right, you know, it
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're right, it doesn't land one. And
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: that's why if you're explaining you're losing. You're telling people like, look,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: just be as smart as me and see things away
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I say them or do them? How are I tell
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: you to do? And there's just there's just no way
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: to win doing that. So if you're explaining you're losing,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: you just are.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: It really hit home in personal relationships, right, not negotiations,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: But I think that's so true in partnerships also.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, negotiation is about a great relationship and why should
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that not concept not also translate to your partners in life.
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: So you also say that silence is golden, which is
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: something that struck me because we learned that in journalism school.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: So how can you implement silence and why is it
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: so important in negotiation or conversation?
• 37:22
  Speaker 8: Yeah, people don't do it enough.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, for two out of three people really struggle
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: with this, one and three love it. If you're very
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: analytical and you're told to go silent, you're.
• 37:31
  Speaker 8: Going to like awesome. I like doing that anyway.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: And if you're two out of three that are uncomfortable
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: with it, the only way to get around it is
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: to practice. I mean, just imagine yourself going dead. Sound
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: is the first mental rehearsal, you know, the more you
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: envision yourself doing something, the more likely you are to execute.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: So envision yourself going silent. How do you make yourself
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: do it? Count thousands in your head? You know, at
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: a point where you feel like you should go silent,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: to shut up and start counting thousands and promise yourself
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: that you're going to go to ten.
• 38:06
  Speaker 8: Now, you won't get.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Passed three before the other side speaks up nine times
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: out of ten. We have one client that told us
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: he got the forty five before the other side cracked.
• 38:17
  Speaker 8: But he hung in there.
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: He hung in there.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: What and the other side cracked because you know, we
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: coached him and he'd become a believer and he understood
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: the process.
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: Okay, I want to move from that to tactical empathy
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: because we talk about empathy all the time.
• 38:34
  Speaker 7: I feel like we both have that.
• 38:36
  Speaker 6: But there's like a traditional there is a definition of
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: empathy that society teaches you, and that's probably in the
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: Merriam Webster Dictionary. And then there's tactical empathy, which is different.
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: So can you differentiate the two and then give us
• 38:50
  Speaker 6: the definition of tactical empathy?
• 38:53
  Speaker 8: Sure?
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just if you just empathy is not agreement.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Empathy is really stating the other side's perspective. So some
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: people think that empathy is putting yourself in their shoes.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: That might be the first step. That's not enough, Like
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of people say, all right, so I can
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: imagine what they're thinking. Therefore I could taylor my argument.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Now you took the first step, but you got five more.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Empathy is really about the transmission of information. You are
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: transmitting to the other side what you believe their perspective is.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: And that's really the way it started out. And these days,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: if you read what anybody writes about empathy, if they've
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: gone it to the history of it, it was an
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: interpretation of a German work, but it's gotten really distorted lately. Empathy,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: you know, you can only be empathic with someone you
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: support or agree with your sympathetic one, and that's how
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: society has come to see it or compassion. Empathy is
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: a compassionate thing to do, and it's difficult to be
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: compassionate without it, but it's not synonymous with compassion. So example,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I can say, look, you think agreed. If we're in
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: a negotiation, that's an empathic statement. Now I didn't say
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: I was I didn't agree that. I I just articulated
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: what your perspective, and people love to be understood. It's insane,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: the ridiculously positive reaction you get to it. So it's
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: just articulating the other side's perspective, not yours. Now, tactical,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: what does that mean? Since we learned about neuroscience not
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: that long ago, we didn't know about a hostage negotiation.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: The brain is predominantly negative. So tactically, if I know
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: that you're wired, your default mode is negative because it
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: is that's a survival mode is negative, and I know
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: how to deactivate it simply by calling out the elephant
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: the room, and tactically, that's a smarter move for me
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: to start out with.
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: Do you have to be a great negotiator to be
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: a great leader?
• 40:54
  Speaker 8: Wow? Wow?
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: So there's a difference between whether or not you're marketing
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: yourself to be a leader or whether you're actually a leader.
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: Such a great distinction.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think yeah, to be to be a
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: great leader, you need great emotional intelligence, which is a
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: tremendous amount of.
• 41:13
  Speaker 8: Overlap for negotiation.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Empathy, empathy based leadership, really understanding your people. Yeah, it
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: makes a big difference. Hospital holding company we're coaching. Several
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: years ago, they got a bunch of changes and nearly
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: in their administration and the rules, nearly the entire company
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: is in and upboard. So the CEO schedules an all
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: hands meeting, brings everybody in, and he starts out with
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: empathy by saying, like, you feel we don't understand. You
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: feel that we haven't taken your needs into account. You
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: feel that the rules are changing and you can't keep
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: up with what's going on. He didn't say he didn't
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: understand him. He didn't say any of those things were true.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: And the people that were there told me there was
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: this tremendous relief in the room, and he didn't change
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: your policy. But all he did was display empathy to
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: the under demonstrating that he understood by stating what they
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: were feeling. And they all had enough faith in him
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: to follow him and stay in a company and go
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: along with the changes.
• 42:19
  Speaker 6: So if I was your employer, I would say, you
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: feel that you're being underpaid?
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Right, because you know if somebody was underpaid, I mean
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the really heay is an indicator vagued. I mean you
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: feel you're being under vagued? Yes, you feel like this
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: job has not taking.
• 42:38
  Speaker 8: You where you want to go in life? You know,
• 42:40
  Speaker 8: where do you want to The real question is where
• 42:42
  Speaker 8: do you want to go?
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: A guy who taught me a lot of stuff about
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: this guy went to high school with. His name is
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Tom McCabe, head of the DBS for America Development Bank
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: of Singapore.
• 42:52
  Speaker 8: He's the head of country.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Tom retains people longer than anybody else does because when
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: they come in and work from Thom says, where do
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you want to be in five years? What do you
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: want at your life besides your job? Where do you
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: really want to be? And they say, well, you know,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I want to do water collers,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: whatever they want to do. Tom says, is all right,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: So we're going to factor that in how you work here,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: because I want you to get where you want in life,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: and this.
• 43:18
  Speaker 8: Job may or may not be part of that.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: He's got a reputation for retaining people longer than anybody
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: in his industry because of that.
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: Wow, okay, we have some rapid fire questions for you.
• 43:33
  Speaker 7: Okay, your smartest financial tip and.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: That's for the long term, don't you know, don't don't
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: do options. And when I was in my thirties. I
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: played options and I learned that it's a great way
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: to lose money.
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: That's like I feel like bitcoin now, that's like the
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: you know the thing.
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: You got to be in it for the long game too.
• 43:52
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: How about a person who really inspires you to this day.
• 43:56
  Speaker 8: Yeah, to this day.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Guy named Johnny Pico, who's the hostage negotiators that got
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: all of the Westerners out of Bay Route in the
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. Wow, the hostage negotiator that was trying to
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: get the Westerners out of Bay Route. His immediate precessor
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: was kidnapped, and Johnny stepped into his shoes and walked
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: into Bay Root when his balla was kidnapping and murdering
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: and completely run in the place. Wow, and walked in
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: and dealt with him face to face time after time
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: after time.
• 44:29
  Speaker 8: I got got all the Westerners out. Guy still inspires me.
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: Okay, something on your bucket list or to do list
• 44:36
  Speaker 6: that you have yet to conquer?
• 44:38
  Speaker 8: Oh yeah, climb Everest.
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: No way, it gets taller every year. You better get going,
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: does it?
• 44:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: It grows.
• 44:45
  Speaker 7: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: I see you know, you're in front of a beautiful bookshelf.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: What should be required reading for every human being.
• 44:54
  Speaker 8: Wow.
• 44:55
  Speaker 6: Besides, never split the difference which should be required reading.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: So depend upon what you read to learn. Read for
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: fun read read Molly's Game.
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: I love that movie. I have not read the book.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's insightful and entertaining. I love that book.
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: I have a card deck.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: I made a fifty two questions for deeper conversation, So
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: tell me when to stop.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: Fab This is a funny one.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: That's like fifty two. That's like a year, right is that?
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: That's an awesome year?
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: That is good one a week. Do plants thrive or
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: die in your care.
• 45:43
  Speaker 8: Well?
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: I killed a few in the past, but now plans
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: of my kids. Yes, I talked to him nice, you know,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: I whispered to him.
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: And what is the smartest decision you've ever made?
• 45:54
  Speaker 7: Chris?
• 45:55
  Speaker 8: Wow? Uh yeah, joining the FBI?
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: Probably, Chris? Where can everybody find you? Follow you, learn
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: from you?
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Okay? The simplest thing to do is to subscribe to
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: the Blackswe Group's newsletter. It's free, but it doesn't matter
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: that it's free. What matters is concise and it's actionable.
• 46:15
  Speaker 8: You get an email Tuesday mornings.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: You put it into play now and plus, the newsletter
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: is a gateweight to everything the black swe Group does.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: So the simple way is text to sign up. Text
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: to the number thirty three triple seven, the text two
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: thirty three seven seven seven and just send black Swan
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: method three words spaces in between not cap sensitive. Sign
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: up for the newsletter, stuff like the Women's Power Hour.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: There's information in there, basic skill sets. It'll take you
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: straight to the website. We got a ton of stuff
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: for you wherever you are in your negotiation journey.
• 46:53
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and you forgot.
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: It's at the FBI negotiator on Instagram.
• 46:58
  Speaker 8: On Instagram.
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: You can't forget Instagram.
• 47:01
  Speaker 7: You can't.
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: I love it, awesome, Chris, thank you sincerely for your time.
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: I'm really grateful.
• 47:08
  Speaker 8: It's been a pleasure.
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: All right. Today's a good day to have a good day.
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: I'll see you next week.