Latest / Nurtural Disasters / The Narcissist's Playbook Part 2: An Evil Within

Transcript

The Narcissist's Playbook Part 2: An Evil Within · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. Ken: Welcome to Natural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey Ken and welcome guys. This is part two of the Narcissist Playbook documentary. This this is a little different because the first one we gave, it was a a review of it, but this one, the disclaimer, there will be spoilers. That's it. I if you don't wanna know what happens, you don't know what the twist is, the surprise in the middle of the movie, you might want to shut this off. You know, wait until after you've seen the movie to to listen to this podcast. But I feel like the last time there's so much I wanted to say, but I'm like, I can't say it without giving it away. And but flat out, I do want to talk about the spoilers because I have so much to say about that. And Ken, he finally watched the documentary today. Woo-hoo! Ken: Woohoo. So, they only I di I wasn't an early adopter, so I only had the movie for two days. I might watch it once more before it expires and maybe get it when it comes out, but yeah, I watched it finally. as someone that has watched a lot of documentaries in his life, this this one definitely it's a very kind of narrative driven. there's one overarching kind of storyline that you they present early in the story. I thought they sprinkled in a lot of kind of other like characters into the documentary subjects where they would kind of put their life story, their encounters with narcissists, or if they're a narcissist themselves, have they been kind of like living with that and coping with it, right? kind of early in the documentary you see kind of who the overarching characters are. there's investigator in that you're introduced to at the beginning of documentary that becomes kinda the overarching kinda like what would they say? Like It's like an overarching story, so it's like it does like a word for it. Is it arc? Arc would be the word I'm thinking. Lisa: Is it Ark? I I'm tryna I'm having like a hard time trying to figure out what you're trying to say, but Ken: But you know how like there's there's like there's there's like television shows and there's like stories and then but there's like one overarching theme that kind Lisa: It Ken: of is is happening. That's this is the main integral part of the narrative. Whereas you could in a documentary you could don't necessarily have to have everybody's story like intertwine with each other as would like fiction. But you definitely sense that Lisa: Yeah. Hmm. Ken: despite all these people talking, there's one overarching thing as trying to get to. It's Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: trying to tell one major story. One major kinda like kinda like when you talked about twist, there's one major kind of like plot line that's going on that this person that's this reporter is trying to get across. There's this investigation that w that you kinda it doesn't get to until maybe like halfway through the documentary. So once you hit that point you understand why certain people were presented the way they were. Because it's kinda odd that they were telling you about this reporter that was gonna kinda investigate about this this narcissist that was kind of committing these like alleged like crimes that are happening against this victim, right? Lisa: Yeah, they had the female the blonde one, right? I forgot her name. But she's investigating you well, how does this tie in? I think that's probably what you're trying to figure out. so I do have to ask, did you figure out the twist? Ken: In terms of figuring out the twists, like I I it's because you told me there was gonna be like a twist, so I was looking for it, right? So Lisa: Okay. Yeah, like me. I was looking for it too. Yeah. Ken: so you kinda figure there's someone that's in the documentary that's like this is oddly this person's oddly very focused on and very detailed in terms of the narrative. Much more so than anybody else. So when you look Lisa: Yeah. Ken: at when you finally see that subject, you're like, if there's a twist, it has to involve that person, right? And that's where I was like, okay, that this person is okay, very it's it's Lisa: Yeah. Did Sam give you the ick? Ken: Yeah, so they might as well say who it is, right? It's it's it's it's Sam Bankin. V it's Sam Baknan. Backnin. So it's Sam Becknin. Lisa: Yeah, this is a spoiler. Yeah. Vanc Venkin Vecnin. Dude, that guy he gave me the ick. my god. And the you know the the part where he's just so fucking arrogant. when he said, I have an IQ 190 When he said that, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I literally laughed out loud. I was like, what? You do not. I was like thinking like, unless you're like severely that's like autism level. Like if you have an IQ of 190, there's no fucking way. usually when there's that level of like grandiosity, I'm like, okay, this dude is off. it's funny because Mark Vicente, who's the director, he escaped a cult called Nexium. The leader was Keith Rainier, and I remember in The Vow, they talked about Keith Raineri. He claimed that he was in the Guinness World Record of having the highest IQ of like one two forty or something like that. Something really ridiculous. that's that's what ring up Bell. I'm like, what, is he a cult leader or something? Because in when those grandiose kind of like he like and it seemed like he really believed it too. That's when I was like, okay, this so something up with this dude. And also the the just juxtaposition of the female reporter, the blonde, pretty blonde reporter, and him Ken: and her name is and her name is I'm sorry if I butcher this. I'm not like a she has a s she's a s she's a Scottish investigative reporter. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: of course in America we don't know much about her, but she is pretty accomplished. So her name is Isla Troquar? Troquar? I'm just butchering it, but I like but she does say that her name is Isla, and then that's pretty much so anybody that's in Scotland or UK probably knows about this person. But this is kind of like our introduction to her, right? So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it's very interesting that ve in the very beginning they're already talking about her kind of like investigative like journalism in this kind of documentary about narcissism. And you're trying to figure out, wait, why is sh why is she here? Why is this reporter here? And you're introduced to the one of the victims. And so what how does this tie together? And you're like, you're trying to unpack it, and it's like, okay. There the twist has to be something to do with this, right? Lisa: and that right after like they cut right it to Sam and I'm like, this this is related. Like they're ta it's like is she talking about him? this guy was terrible, and I'm like it has to be Sam because when I mean, there's a few things I wrote down that gave me the ick about him. Were the first one the the I have a 190 IQ right away. I was like, okay, this dude is like pathologically wrong. There's like there's something pathological about this dude. Okay, so he's like the Richard Brandon guy, he's like, we've been friends for years and he's my buddy and w we've been getting along so good, even though he's a self confessed narcissist and I'm like, You could be friends with a narcissist? you Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: j it's huh, right? Like Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: if To have a friendship with a narcissist you'll always have to subjugate your own needs because they never see people as equals. People are either above Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: them or below them. And if they see you as an equal, they have to take you down a peg. and like you know like when guys guy friends, you would know this, guys Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: like to tease each other a lot. That's how men bond. Ken: Yes. Lisa: whereas women women compliment each other as a way to bond. So with men it's the constant teasing, but like the teasing that Sam would do, it's like, I'm better. Like I'm like, he really thinks he's better than S because it's like, Richard, yeah, he's cool. Like but there's the teasing is not I don't know how to say it Ken: it's not like a friendly kind of teasing, it is is it? Lisa: It yeah, i i there's use a f there's a friendly teasing and there there's it there's a one upping. That's the Ken: Yes. Lisa: word. He was constantly one upping Richard. And I was like, Okay, this reminds me of other episode we talked about Gina, remember? The constant one upping? Mm-hmm. Ken: Mm-hmm. And we're talking about the one-upping, and we have friends that are one uppers. And it's not necessarily that one uppers is a sign of narcissism, but it's a very interesting trait that he has in terms of what kind of narcissist he is, right? it's that one upping nature, it's always putting him ahead of everybody else. He has an associate, they seem to be like kind of equals, right? They're like they're like a package deal, Richard and Sam. they're introduced kind of like a package deal, they have like this kind of like a seminar that they happen to document. It does seem that it focus a lot more about Sam more than Richard. So you're kind of seeing that there's something a little kind of like off, right? They're focusing a lot on Sam and there's there's there's a reason why. We figure out why the reason why. 'Cause he's the focal point of the documentary. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And and even Richard, I think he has know he says that like Sam is his friend, it's kind of like associate, right? even if you're you you run a business or a kind of like a partnership with someone that you know is a narcissist, but it's kind of You kinda accept kind of like the ribbing or the kind of like the one up husband ship and kinda like the narcissist behavior as just that's just that's just a gossip doing business, right? Lisa: Mm. Ken: they're friends in a way where it's like, okay, we're business partners. we talk a lot, we try to share a lot about like kind of like our our mission statement Yeah, it's just their business. They're business associates. So I think because of that, I think Richard was very guarded even even when he had a relationship with him and when it took a turn for the worse, he totally saw like the bad stuff, The bad stuff was really bad. Lisa: So yeah, you wanna give away the twist? Ken: Yeah, I think I think we've already like laid it out there what the twist was. Lisa: Mm-hmm. So basically, Isla, the pretty blonde journalist, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she's interviewing this this this lady, and her face is blurred out. So, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: you know, to keep her anonymity, which I totally get. As Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she talks about this one person who's been very abusive to her, and it started out as like she sought his help because she wanted help mental help. And What happened was that he ended up abusing her and these doing these horrible psychological games with her. So she talks about being abused and she talks about Sam. She reveals his name that Sam was the one who's abusing her, and Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it comes out, Richard finds out, and he's like, What the fuck? he realizes this guy's been a monster the whole time. Like the person he thought was his friend really isn't his friend. I know he sometimes you want to see the best in people, especially when they're your friends. But then you you find out stuff about a f a friend that's so horrific Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: that you just can't you know, especially when we they've been friends for years is what he was talking about. And one thing about Sam I don't know, I need to ask you about this, because now that you've seen the film, He's being interviewed and he goes, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I've never been loved or what does he say, I've never loved. No one can help me with my emptiness and can someone give me a manual like he's it's very dramatic. Well not then he just starts crying 'cause he's like envies people who can feel depression and normal quote unquote normal feelings or whatever. Did did you buy it or did you not? Ken: you know what? Just based on how the documentary was made, by is it Mark Vicente? Lisa: Yes. Ken: So the way the documentary was framed by Mark Vicente, it it makes it so it's really hard to accept his behavior as genuine because it literally, earlier in the documentary leading up to this, he's telling you the playbook. This is pretty much it. Like a lot of The narcissist playbook is about Sam. Because Sam details how he treats others, right? How he treats kind of people in his life. He kind of talks about himself as superior. He enjoys not being able to kind of like feel empathy the way other people do. he sees it more as a as a understanding for other people's behavior and how they act, and he uses that to his advantage, right? In Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: romantic relationships, in terms of his scam that he's been running. He's even tells the camera earlier that he's Able to manipulate people and the more kind of hurt or injured they are, that one type of person would just seek help and try to get try to fix it. He's looking for the person that's self-destructive, right? he even put it in a way where it's like, yeah, I'm looking for the person that's like has their life kind of like as a dumpster fire and seeking that kind of suicide, for lack of a better term. He even uses the term suicide. Lisa: Yeah yeah. Ken: And I'm not sure he seems and you s and you see it. It seems like he has some sort of weird kind of kink or gratification for that word. Someone someone's so obsessed with me, and so I'm manipulating them so well that they're gonna kill themselves. I get a kick out of that. For lack of better term, he didn't say that exactly, but that's pretty much what he's kinda yeah, perfect. Lisa: Yes. Yeah. You're paraphrasing, yeah. Ken: So when he said that, he even said that you can't trust me. He's almost telling you the, you know, the what's that thing about the the frog and the scorpion? He's telling you he's a scorpion. He's telling Lisa: Mm. Ken: you that I will sting you. That if Yeah, my mannerisms and everything that I say, I'm I'm playing it at such a like a high level. I'm playing 4D chess that I'm that what if you see me and I'm showing you emotion and I'm crying. It's not genuine, I'm playing a game. so back to the point where you're like saying that he kind of s is trying to get you to like be sympathetic towards his his like plight, right? He has he kinda has a lack of connection with people. So he starts crying, right? 'Cause he's he said he's kinda trying to frame that he's damaged goods. But it's like, no, Mark Vicente kinda framed it in a way where it's like, he's playing you right now. So it's it's really hard as a viewer to be like, huh, that's very interesting that they did it that way. Because they Lisa: Mm. Ken: that easily had him kinda go through that that scene where he's crying and he's trying to make you feel sorry for him. If they put that in the beginning of the movie, it would have a different effect, right? Lisa: Hmm. you know what? I didn't even think about that. Huh. Ca yeah, cause if you'd be crying in the the beginning Uh-huh. Ken: Unfortunately, and it's already introduced him as someone that's already telling you his playbook. He's telling you what he's gonna do. So when he actually does it, it's almost like, look, he's he's acting. So I at the whole time I'm like watching that and like I'm watching to see his mannerisms like this man's a very good actor. He's a terrific actor. Cause he's like he even tell I think he early in the in in the documentary he says, I could probably cry on command. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh-huh. Ken: Great. Great. It's like, man. So this is this is not I don't think this is a coincidence. I think I really think this is how they framed a documentary. And it's brilliant, Lisa: To me Ken: by the way. It's a brilliant, it's brilliant to frame it that way because it definitely paints him as this guy's as a villain. Lisa: yeah, he even has the villain eyebrows. You you like to look at like people's eyebrows and you're like, they have villain eyebrows. He for sure has them. Ken: well he's telling you he's scorpion, so how can you feel sad for the scorpion, right? It's he's telling you that I fake it. I fake emotion, I fake crying. So it's like at this point he's crying, I was like, Okay. If you watch this in like kind of a other movie, you know it's like no no no no. He's playing he's playing possum. It's playing possum right there, right? He wants you to feel sorry for him. don't turn your back on him, he's gonna he's gonna do something to you. Don't you get that like kind of thing? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Lisa: Mm-hmm. Trying to get your guard down, and you know what? I did not buy it. And here's why. It seems super incongruous to how he was, right? Because with the narcissists I know, they Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: do not like to show any kind of vulnerability, especially crying. Like that shows a vulnerability and they hate it. And I will say this. There's a saying, if you want to test a narcissistic parent, specifically, I don't know why they say that, cry in front of them and see what they do. especially like when I would cry in front of my mom or whatever, she would just be like, Don't think about that, or it'll make you feel bad. Or she would just get really mad. recently I had an aunt who has It's not Down syndrome, but it's a form of mental disability who went to live with my mom for a few months. my mom was very abusive to her and my aunt is very, very sensitive. Like she cries over little things. And my aunt will start crying and then my mom would basically just mock her for crying. Just really cruel and just really because it makes her uncomfortable. to see someone cry. so for Sam to do that, I was like, if he's a real narcissist or whatever, sociopath, psychopath, cluster B, whatever, this guy would not be crying like that unless it was manipulative. You know, he's yeah, trying to get you to feel sorry for them. And they say with sociopaths, they've asked them, what is it that you want the most in the world? And the do you know what they say? For people to feel sorry for me. they're easier to manipulate. Once you feel Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: sorry for them, they like, I can get people to do whatever the fuck I want. And I can see that with Sam. Ken: he kinda flips that thing, right? It's like that different type of narcissist that Dr. Romanes talks about. he's uber confident. Like he's listening all his credentials, either probably made up, but he's very like proud of his his intellect, his ability to manipulate people, his kind of his his kind of knowledge. He really puts hangs his hat on that. But once it becomes like a thing where people kind of are kind of staring at them, trying to try to like p back him into a corner, immediately he flips into the victim, right? Lisa: yeah. I noticed that. Yeah. Ken: You see that, right? But he he he flipped it he flipped the switch immediately. So you're looking at it, it was like Okay, so what so what was he he trying to pull here? This is a guy that apparently has no vulnerabilities. He's playing a game. That's why Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: if you didn't know if he wasn't so kind of so eager to give us the playbook, we might have felt for it, right? If we didn't know about how he how he operated, this would have you you w you would have thought that it was like, this guy's genuinely feeling empty inside, he's kind of doesn't like his plight. But no, it's a way to get out of a situation. Lisa: Yeah. it didn't make sense to me, right? If you're saying I don't feel anything, I'm empty, I don't I and then you start crying. Obviously you have feelings. Right? If you Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: i you obviously you're feeling something, but he's like, But I feel nothing. Like, you feel nothing but you're crying, so you feel something. It didn't make any sense to me. To me th the whole thing, like I saw right through his bullshit. And mm-hmm. Ken: Well, it's like the sociopathic behavior, right? It's like he understands emotions and he's manipulating people based on how people react. Like a normal person react to something. But he's not normal. So when if he c if he's crying and he's telling you that he he cries in a in a way where he's like, Okay, I could probably do it on command. Why are we trusting that if he cries, if he if he says that he's kind of like sad or upset or kind of like feel sorry for me Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: he's kinda lost that by giving us all his like behaviors and his like you know he's he's very confident where so what happened, right? It's it's it's he flipped a switch. So it's it's doesn't seem like a natural kind of thing. Lisa: Mm-hmm. It it doesn't seem natural. You're right. That's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: a mmm. I And yes, you were saying the movie does focus mostly on him, out of all the other narcissists. Because you know, remember you saw Lee, there was that girl. I the one the one who's like painting, and she's a narcissist, and she said she her childhood was like very similar to Mommy Dearest. And she and her Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: sister would watch Mommy Dearest and drink wine and like laugh, like, ha ha that's our childhood, how funny. But like, you know, it fucked her up. But she's only in for like f three minutes? Yeah. Ken: they gave her a minute. They gave her a minute. And they never brought back up again. I was like Lisa: Yeah, th I y that's a yes, I hope that in if there's like sequels to this or whatever, they go back because I feel like I needed to know more. I wanted to know more about her not just you get her backstory, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: but her you don't get her playbook. It's just like she's just vindictive. It's like, you are my you know, I play the long game she's a very obviously a very retaliatory person. But I I wish you di delve more in all the the other he they'd say there's four different narcissists he interviews. I don't know. I feel like that there's a lot more that you could do. Like you could do deep dives into like each one. It could be its own movie, I feel like. but it the move the film itself is great. Like it needs to be shown. And every every streaming platform, even though they all the streaming platforms they said there's no audience for this. And I'm like, uh-huh, whatever. Ken: I don't I don't tr I don't trust how like these people determine that because this is why certain things do so well and they're like, my gosh, how why did it do so well? It was like because it would have done well, you just didn't give it a chance because it doesn't follow your kind of like algorithm or kind of like past knowledge, right? They rather Lisa: it Ken: they a lot of the studios like a safe thing, right? It's infuriating. Lisa: want to do they just wanna do Fast and Furious forty seven or whatever and they're like, Okay, this is my safe bet. we all know the studios are super risk adverse. that's why almost every movie out is like a sequel, remake, adaptation. Ken: it's not just ri it's not just riss at verse, it's it's also we wanna tie this into just how the narcissists operate, A lot of these kind of like like movies and like studio execs, They think they know better. There's some sort of like narcissism there, right? There th these people think that, I'm just gonna I know what people want. I tell you what to make the movie about, I select the movie, it's gonna be a hit. They just are so confident that that's gonna be the thing, And even if there's things that fail, it doesn't it doesn't faze them. They'll just blame someone else for it, right? Lisa: yeah, yeah. They Ken: Well you I just wanna it's like okay, you we talk about like studio heads, look at Harvey Weinstein. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And that's only one person right there. And it it kind of lists like people. you see there's like a montage of like celebrities, That it kind of like focuses on. It doesn't say per se that calls them out immediately. But you remember who was in that that kind of like montage? It like Kanye. It's like P. Diddy. it's interesting that Lisa: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Harvey Weinstein. Ken: they picked the okay. Very interesting that they picked those like those topics, right? And then it kinda goes into Marilyn Manson, his relationship with Ever and Rachel Wood. Lisa: Real mm. You know what's funny you you bring that up, because that's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: another thing I have in my notes. Mark Vicente had a filmmaking partner. His name's like Scott Altamar. I don't know how to spread let's call him Scott. So They were saying that they would pitch it to Hollywood executives and it's funny that they would realize like, Hey, these are the same people we're making the documentary about. Ken: Exactly. That's why I was that's why I was thinking that you're gonna go with that. It's like okay. That's like what it's hard to pitch it to someone that's like, hey, I think this thing's about me and I don't like it. Narcissists don't like being called out as being narcissists, right? Even says that in a documentary. We know that in in in our lives. That's pretty much Lisa: Mm. Ken: f declaring war, isn't it? You wanna have a fight, just just blast them as you're a narcissist. Whew, instant fight. Lisa: my god. A narc. my god. I've done that. I've made that mistake. I've walked into that rake. Fuck. that it'll incite a rage. It's like, how dare you 'cause they don't they don't think they're narcissists. Ken: Mm mm. Lisa: it's kinda weird. But going back to like the pitches the Hollywood executives, that did not surprise me one fucking bit. Hollywood, I'm like, Hollywood's not gonna receive this documentary with open arms or anything. I I have a theory that most TV and film executives are narcissistic themselves. I've Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: not not just anecdotally, because anecdotally I've known a lot of them. and I'm like, Holy fuck. I I could tell, and I do have this one story, I'm not gonna name names. But it's another tea that I'm gonna spill because, you know, I'm tangentially been involved with the industry. yeah. Tea piping hot. Ken: You're f You're filled with tea, yeah. You're filled with tea. Well yeah, I I think it you should explain to the listener that Lisa has been you know, you you've been a foot into the industry, so you have seen like how it operates a little bit, right? Mm-hmm. Lisa: Yeah. So I I had a friend. Well, I we're still friends. She was dating this big film executive. he was a film producer for this big iconic film from the 90s. I mean if I told you the name, you'd be like, what the fuck? everybody knows it. I mean people still quote it. I guess what happened with him is that his work had dried out. And he was living with her in their apartment in the west side and he was waiting for to get a payout he was selling the rights to this big film. It was like a quarter of a million dollars. And he was waiting for that because he was having so many issues. He couldn't find work, even after being like a producer for this huge film. And he was so nasty to my friend. To the point where they would go hiking and he would just be like berating her and raging at her that she would just be going down the hill crying and people would stop her and say, Hey, are you okay? You know, because he was just so nasty. And And she's like, he's a narcissist, and that's when that was actually my first introduction to nar to the word narcissist, narcissistic personality disorder. And she told me, like, I told him he was a narcissist, and he said, I'm not, because I cured myself of my narcissism. And I'm like, What? But that's before I knew like all that I know now, that you can't be cured from it. I'll text you later the name of the movie. once I text you, you'll be like, fuck, really? And and you'll Google him and you'll see. So I can see why people like that really they they've been running the show for so long and that they do not want to be called out. I mean, we saw this with like documentaries. there's a one documentary, Open Secret. I don't know if you heard about that. It came out like t Ken: I have not. Lisa: probably. I can see why okay, so this The director of it. She also did it was a documentary about the predators in the Catholic Church. it was a really great documentary. She even got an Oscar for it. And that's why they asked her to well, I don't think she was asked. She, I don't know if she brought it on herself, to make this documentary called Open Secret about these teenage actors, he's like a child actors, boys. Pretty much all of them were boys in the documentary. And they come out with their stories about how the predators had preyed on them and done horrible things to them. But we all everybody knows what happened. so after winning an Oscar And then the movie was basically shelved. Hollywood was not having it. the film festivals wouldn't touch it. Distributors were like, I'm not walking into that one. the hypocrisy of like, okay, you're willing to talk about other people's indiscretions, you know, abuses of minors, but when it comes to your own, rather than hold them accountable, you've protect each other. We've seen that. There was another documentary about that. it was a docuseries that came out last year. was it Quiet on the Set? It was I it's on Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: HBO if you wanna watch it. these Ken: That I had I that I did see. Lisa: see exactly. That like Quiet on the Set. It's in that that same vein of people coming out. especially with the big name actors, though was it Drake? Drake Josh, whatever. Saying like this person did this to me. and you see how they protected each other rather than just go to the authorities and and let them know what happened, they just got moved to another studio and protected each other. So this is a little club. So it does not surprise me that this movie it's not gonna be received with open arms. Fuck no. Ken: Yeah, it's it's a long lineage of kind of this Hollywood kind of you know abuse culture. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I remember seeing something with you know, like the the quarries and then one of the quarries was actually saying that they they used to have I guess parties for all the kids there and there was s someone that somehow threw the parties. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: The odd thing was, nobody knew where this guy came from. He just suddenly w people he he just became an insider after a while. And he was after a while, this guy's a PDF. This guy's a PDF. Lisa: P D uhhuh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Predator. Yeah. Ken: And it was saying like how it was really big in the 80s, and the reason why a lot of this stuff did not come out was because, you know, this is how the structure of Hollywood was. And also what's the one thing you could tell a kid to get them to shut up about the abuse? you threaten them that's like, if you tell anybody about this, I'm gonna make it so you never get work in this town again. And Lisa: Mm. Ken: your parents aren't gonna like that. And pretty much they've used that on every kid that's like a child actor, and it's worked every single time. Because that's like the biggest fear for a kid, to like let their parents down, right? Because they're they're the breadwinner of the family. They could just imagine how mad their parents would be if they never get work again and they were the cause of it. That's Lisa: Mm. Ken: like the per that's like the perfect that's the perfect deterrent for having kids come out about this. It does a lot of this stuff did not come out until like the people were adults. Probably not even into their twenties, probably into their thirties and forties. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Then it finally came out. Lisa: Yeah, like, you know what's weird? Rose McAwan, you know, Marilyn Manson's ex, she's like, Ken: Uh-huh. Lisa: she when she came out with the Harvey Weinstein allegations, she said, Hollywood has ran like a cult. And I'm like, I could see that. And that's why unfortunately, I this film, you have to show that it's getting this kind of recognition before Hollywood recognizes it, but they don't want their own Dirty laundry exposed. S Ken: I'm hoping I'm hoping that's ever since like the past ten years where a lot of these documentaries come out, a lot of these kind of insiders have gotten in trouble. Hopefully this at least for future generations or people that's already in the industry, like hopefully it gives them kind of courage to kind of break out of this kind of really toxic culture that's in Lisa: Yes and no. unfortunately, th a lot of people are still empowered. There are a lot of Harvey Weinsteins that are still there, Ken: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lisa: but they they are very judicious with who they throw under the bus because they're like, okay, if we throw one person on the bus, then it's like a decoy. you focus on this and you don't have to see what I did. Like the with P. Diddy thing, P. Diddy's not the only one. He's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: not the only predator. There's so many of them in the music industry and they're like, we could just throw this asshole under the bus. You know what? We could do that and wash our hands of it and Ken: But but here's the thing. You think about even like thirty, forty years ago, this was like a non-factor. There will be no allegations at all. It'll get swept under the rug. It's not like that Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: anymore. I think the allegations, I think back then, people were just like, man, this is just like a blip. This person's trying to get money. I don't think people have that kind of viewpoint anymore, right? I think people Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: are now just like waiting, who's the next one? When's the next thing gonna drop? And people aren't surprised anymore. There there's definitely a change in public perception. And public perception could get someone in power out of power based on that public perception. Lisa: Yeah. What's it called? A pu a public. Ken: And again, we talk about the thing that's like, yeah, what what when it's good, you don't get in trouble. When everything's going fine, it it you don't get in trouble for doing all the bad things. Lisa: Mm. Ken: Once the wheels fall off, it's one thing after another. It's like it's like a snowball effect, right? You get once someone accuses you of something and then you screw up something and you screw up you piss off another person that's influential. Exactly. It's it's a dog eat dog kind of industry. You piss off one person, someone's gonna try to like bury you. I think a lot of that that P. Diddy thing was who was trying to bury him? 50 Cent. 50 Cent was trying to bury him. He was waiting. He's been waiting for years. Lisa: Yeah. I know, I saw that documentary. but yeah dunno. Ken: The thing about these people, and they kind of showed the P. Diddy as kind of like this narcissist and kind of like this jackass of industry. the problem with that is a lot of people are scared of you, but it takes a couple people that have the power to find their opening. And people always are looking for that opening. If you're a terrible person, there's another terrible person that's trying to take you out. Lisa: Mm, mm-hmm. Ken: So just don't think that if you're a narcissist that there aren't other people that try to like get you. And that's why the I think some narcissists have such paranoia. Lisa: you know what? You're so right. And so there was this interview I was listening to with Mark Vicente. I don't remember w I'm trying to remember which interview I was listening to, but he said that he had a film screening and there was an Ailis actress who saw it. And he wouldn't name her, you know. I I get Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: that. Mark said that she told him that she liked it, but that she didn't like the part where their narcissists expose their tactics. And yeah Ken: I wonder why. Lisa: Yeah, I he obviously like hinted that she did not want her own like MO exposed and It made me think of all the times like I wondered how all the narcissists in my life would feel about like the fact that there's so much info about narcissism right now. I I know for a fact that they would be not happy about that. And i there's a one person I had in mind, this ex narcissistic friend, not Gyna. But so like if she were to watch this documentary, I feel like her eyes would be so big to to the point where it's like, I am being exposed, you know? like Clockwork orange style of like eyes, like that big. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: You know, th they do not want to get exposed. And it's funny because that one narc friend I I I'm thinking about someone Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: actually exposed her. There was s somebody she'd screwed over and they wrote a blog about her about how like I was giving her money because she had like a bunch of kids with different baby daddies and she needed help and and I didn't realize she was using that money to get drugs and get tattoos and go to Universal Studios and do she would do drugs in front of her kids. Like I like, What the fuck? Like somebody wrote a blog about that, like on Blog Spot. And it was like, what? And I was sending it to people who like mutual people we knew. And I was like, Well, look at this bitch. That also reminds me. thing I noticed about, you know, like women who've like this is a completely anecdotal. They've had kids with different baby daddies. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: They've all been sociopaths. All of them. Like they've had their kids taken away at some point, they did drugs in front of them. it just there there's a thing about that. Like that it's so anecdotal, there's no study. I w I wish there was. I mean, if there could be a study about that, that would be really cool. But just like yeah, I d I I don't know if you've had that experience as well. But just Ken: You mean that ki that kind of patterned behavior of just kind of was it serial kind of relationships and I in that term I I need to ask, is like i is the person trying to find support for their kid or they're just serial like getting baby daddies and stuff like that and Lisa: Yeah. But yeah, yeah. But anyway, we're going off topic. Ken: Yeah, it's interesting you brought up that Cockro Orange thing because Evan Rachel Wood talks about that cult programming, right? She kind of had she's she claimed that Marilyn Manson was showing her very graphic material and she was just watching it. And this kind of thing is common in, you know, kind of like brainwashing. It's a brainwashing technique. And we do see it in the movie Clockword Orange. It's so it's very interesting that you brought up that movie. So it's like Lisa: huh. Ken: it's kind of like it is a brainwashing cult technique to try to get people to indoctrinate it into something. she brings it up and she has a moment where she's saying that she's she's a smart person, but she still fell for it. And I think a lot of it was she knows that it's like She was young and she was intelligent, but that has nothing to do with it. The smartest of people could fall for, like a narcissist, right? It has nothing to do with it. Lisa: No. so there's this I read this book about this one author and it was her memoir and she grew up in the children of God cult. She basically said that just because you're quote unquote book smart, it doesn't Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: exempt you from falling into cults. Like even the branch dividians, they had a Harvard educated lawyer, there was an engineer who lived in LA. I mean, so people who are like quote unquote educated, they fell for it, right? So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it there's still that longing of wanting to be part of a group. And one thing Ken: Yes. Lisa: that really you know what's really interesting that she said she said after you leave a cult, it takes years to deprogram. And when she said how many years, I was like, wow. Ken, do you wanna give a guess of how long it takes to deprogram from a cold? Ken: I don't remember that part. It was I'm thinking ten, ten years. I'm gonna say ten years. Ooh I just know that ten years is a long time because it's Lisa: Yes ten, exactly, you got it. It's a la Ken: ooh, it's it's yeah, that it's it it's hard, right? we could incorporate that to just how our, society is right now. We have a lot of people talk about a certain group of people That were influenced into a political movement and now a small portion of them or a vocal portion of them is trying to be get the to get the program right. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And they're getting input from people that have left like cults or left the Mormon church. And it and they tell it's it's tough. It's tough to do it's tough to do that because especially in the Mormon church, that there's a lot of influencers now that have left the Mormon church. And actually telling people how the Mormon Church works. So it at least gives people like a it it's guess I guess this is like the Mormon leaving the Mormon Church playbook. so a lot of it is you're not only just deprogramming, let's say your whole family or friends and family are in that kind of cult. What happens to you when you detach from that? you lose all of that. You'll just have a group of people that keep constantly calling you and you know, you know, say things like, I want to save your soul. I don't want to go to hell. It's things like that. So and the thing is, you're excommunicated if you do something like that. And that has a lot to do with cult deprogramming too, especially if you are not the only one in the cult. It's your whole family and your whole neighborhood. So I can just see Lisa: Yeah, it's Ken: how difficult that is. It's just it it it it takes a lot of courage to have that. So Lisa: Yeah. Ken: anybody that wants to like leave a cult, it's definitely s you have to get help. but recognizing that you are in a cult and or you're in some sort of situation where you're being programmed to think a certain way. once you realize Lisa: Mm yeah. Ken: that it's empowering, but it's it that's that's only like step one. Lisa: Yeah, that's the thing about Mark Vicente, 'cause he left the next same cult like what? Bef right before COVID. And it hasn't been ten years since he's left. But he's dealt with a lot of therapists and stuff since he's left and it's he's able to realize, shit, that's what it was. And again, you know, all narcissistic leaders are cults. And, you know, if you come from a narcissistic family, it's a single family cult, as they call it. If you have an abusive partner, it's a one-on-one cult, or I've heard a cult of one, whatever. So That's why it's very important to study narcissism and Ken: okay. I was just bringing up something else. It was like something interesting in the documentary that when he was Sam was talking about the playbook. He was talking about how he has you know romantic or sexual relationships with these people. I think most of them were like patients he was treating. And it really interesting that he says like he would try to, you know, engage with the person, reach out, connect with the person. And then once that happens, he turns the playbook around. He starts chastising her. He starts trying to cut her off. And eventually he discards her and see how she like copes with it. And you look at that, I'm like, what does that remind us of that we to recently talked about? This is pretty much what people with the Madosphere is touting, by the way. What Sam is saying Lisa: Yes. Ken: about relationships with these women, or just relationships with people in general, like friendships and romantic relationships. Once you get it, play hard to get, cut them off, and then discard them. And this Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: is a l this is like the playbook for people in the Manosphere in the past couple years. So this is this is absolutely frightening. So you're a lot of the tactics that the Manosphere talks about in terms of getting women and stuff like that, it's right there. Sam actually just gave it to you. It's pretty horrifying because if you look at how People analyze just how people in the man's sphere, people that are red pilled, and these these men that are talking to these women, and these women are giving him like kind of like candid, like talks about it. Do you know what this guy said to me? When you know what this guy was trying to do on our date? Like we c it got to a certain point where he was charismatic, and then it just it just flipped the switch. And he just started criticizing me, telling me this, that, and that. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Sam repeated that. Almost word for word. So it's like, okay, I think I know where the Manosphere creators got it from. Not exactly Lisa: Yeah Ken: from him, but that this is the playbook. This is brilliant. This is the playbook. People have to watch this movie and just look at it as like, I see that. I see this right here. It's so it's so apparent now. it's once you watch it, it's now you're gonna look at things as like, I get it now. I this is where it came from. And then you can't unsee Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it. I think there was I for I was reading a article on a quick kind review on the documentary. The interesting part was the writer was saying that the documentary had a little bit of I'm not sure if you wa ever watched the movie John Carpenter, They Live. It's a movie with Roddy Roddy Piper. And pretty much the the idea of the movie is that he's a vagrant, right? And then he discovers these glasses that once he puts them on, he noticed that there's aliens running all these things. Like the news, the media, all these kind of like wealthy people are all aliens. And they're all being kind of like held l as cattle and brainwashed. And he's kind of putting it in this thing where it's like, yeah, once you put the glasses on, you see all the narcissists around, and this is what the documentary is trying to show you. And I thought that was a good Good kind of like correlation they had in there. because once you see how narcissists operate, or you dealt with narcissists like me and Lisa, we've grown up with them, you can't unsee it once you know it. It's like it's like those glasses. So once you put it on, you're gonna be like, that person is if not a narcissist, you've very guarded against people that have personalities that are similar to that. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Or yeah, Lisa Watch They Live. I love it. it's kind of like a B movie, but it's John Carpenter. So, you know, John Carpenter is very famous. I love pro wrestling, so I saw Roddy Roddy Piper. and it has Keith David in there. Great movie. If you you want to watch a nice movie, watch that movie. Recommend it. Lisa: Okay. I'll look at yeah, I'll look into that. Ken: man, I lo I love that movie. It it's cheesy in a way where it's like, this is social commentary too. And there's like good bit of action. I'm not sure if you ever heard that term. I was like, was what does Roddy Piper say? He's like, I I love chewing bubblegum and kicking ass, and I'm all out of bubblegum. I'm not sure if you ever heard that, but I like, okay. Okay, that that Lisa: yes, I have. I have, yeah. Ken: came from that movie. Because it's it's like it's such a line where it's like, man, this is like a This is such a eighties kind of action movie kind of line. But I love that movie. And I guess that leads into a palette cleanser, right, Lisa? Lisa: Yeah, so over the weekend they had the online launch. So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: like I had access to it because I was an early donor. for like Saturday and Sunday, they had all these different things with the the interview with Dr. Romney and interview with all these different mental health professionals and talking about the film and and people were able to interact. It was really cool. And at the end in one of the launches, the filmmakers partner, Scott Altomar, I'm I'm sure I'm butchering his last name, but Scott said that they are currently partnering with college campuses and they plan on showing this documentary in high schools. So I was like, yes, this is exactly what we need. This is like a first step. imagine if I had I can't even imagine if I had had access to this film in high school. you know, the ex-friend that I was telling you about, the I wouldn't I would have totally my I would have made so many different choices. to show this in high schools It will stop people from getting into these toxic relationships. They will see these patterns. This is something completely needed. And the fact that they're d currently doing this, I'm wondering though, they interview one college professor, he's also a psychologist, he works for the psychology department in I think it's the University of Georgia. the fact that they have that in with him. And they can go to other campuses and show it. This is amazing. This is just a start. This is the beginning of a fucking movement and I am so here for it. I'm ready. It made me so excited. And I was like, yes, yes, finally. the narcissists are not gonna like it. Ken: Hey, how d I so are we part of this movement too? So it's like we're trying to reach out, so you know Grab us. Lisa: yeah, I would love to be part of this movement as well. I maybe we could have our own documentary, make our own about narcissistic parents, you know, th but it that's more niche, more specific, like just like our podcast. Whereas the playbook was very it was a like you said, it was an overview. Ken: Well, if you think about it, it's like a I think you mentioned it in the last episode. A lot of our issues with our parents is because they have narcissistic tendency or just like narcissistic personality disorder. And that's really that affected our upbringing and our relationships with our parents into adulthood. So it's really it's not the complete basis of of how we were raised, but it's a huge portion of it. we didn't for some reason we didn't call it the nast narcissistic like parent podcast. Even though I tagline some sometimes on it on YouTube. You probably yeah, if you see the small text, I do put put that on there, but it's like that's not the only thing it's about. But that's a big part of it. That's why this I think this documentary is so important to me and Lisa. And even if you don't have like a narcissistic person that you're dealing with right now, it's great to know how to spot one. And this is kind of teaching you how to spot one. It's a very basic kind of overview of it. Almost overly basic on the most part, but I think a lot of the documentary's main point was to tell this very interesting story, this investigative journalism that was going on. That was the overarching theme of the movie. Lisa: Yes, yes. I I totally agree. And I think that concludes our episode. Ken: Palette cleanser? Lisa: Yeah, the well the pellet cleanser was I did the when I said about the online launch, partner with college Ken: That's not very cl that's not very funny. That's very serious. Lisa: I don't think it's serious. I think it's more like motivational. But you want a palette Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: cleanser to be ha funny? Is that what? Ken: Well, sometimes it's like a pallet cleanser could be you know, just winding down. Lisa: Okay, you want to wind down from okay. Ken: Well, you know, like we don't we don't have like another like just like sub episode where we just talk like all ro nonsense. Lisa: I think we've had enough. I think we're good. Ken: I think we think we had it off. Lisa: I think we're good to go. I think we I think we might do a bonus episode of this one because of the stuff that came out today with Sam. Ken: wow, it's it's do you wanna Lisa: Yeah. Ken: do you even wanna tease what we got today? Lisa: You know what? Yeah, you know what? There'll be a teaser for the next one. so interestingly enough, we got a direct message from Sam Veknan. He randomly you know, in our Instagram, Nurture Disasters, he sent us a random DM and it was long too. Talking about how they defamed him and blah blah blah, making himself out to be the victim. I think in the the next episode, I will actually read it. I think it's too early to talk about it because I think there's more to it. There's gonna be a lot more to it. he's been actually messaging other people as well. It wasn't just me, because I I'm like, Izzy has to be sending Ken: Well that well then we could actually touch upon this on the next episode, because we do we do there is a portion of the movie where it talks about, you know, narcissists being pushed to the brink and their gambit is to use their smear campaign, which Sam is using to like it even documents what he did for afterwards, right? Once he gets cornered and revealed for what he is. Woo So Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Let's not let's not give away too much. Let's just say yeah, I in the next episode we will read what he actually sent us. So stay tuned for that. So I'm gonna leave that. Ken: Mm-hmm. And if and we can somehow get Mark Vicente to, you know, do like a clip on the show, that would great. I'm trying to but I'm trying to I'm Lisa: Yeah, Mark, if you're listening if you're listening. Ken: trying to really reach out. It's really tough. I think they're because they're so busy, they're probably getting bombarded with other stuff too. But Lisa: yes. for sure. I could see that. Ken: Hey anybody want to come on here and give us like a little tidbit or soundbite or, you know, do an interview with us. Even Evan Rachel Wood. I'll reach out what? I'd I'd have to find her publicist, I don't know. She is a act Lisa: Yeah, yeah, reach out to her. I'm sure she'll be like, fuck ya Ken: she is a longtime actress, so Lisa: Yeah. Ken: and I think what was it I I I didn't even realize it. Yeah, she was in Westworld. And it it brought that up in the documentary that she was in Westworld. And I remember watching the original Westworld growing up as a kid. Like, you know, it's pretty much about like an amusement park that these animatronic things come to life. And she plays like a character that You know, she plays with like someone in the old West and some people have various relationships with her. some very friendly, some very abusive. And it shows that in the documentary as well, like little snippets of it, the show she's in. Lisa: Mm-hmm. All right. Well guys, stay tuned for the next episode. I'll be reading the interesting DM that Sam Veknan sent us. Ken: man, we got we should do that soon because it's like we should keep it fresh, right? Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, thank you guys for so much for listening. Again, all these spoilers. Hopefully you've seen the movie and enjoyed it as much as we did. And see you next time. Ken: Okay. Bye Lisa. Lisa: Bye Ken. Bye guys. Ken: Bye.