Transcript

Divorce Court · I Do, Part 2

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to I Do Part two. I'm one of
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Speaker 1: your celebrity mentors, Cheryl Burke, and today I'm joined by
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Speaker 1: a powerhouse of women for a conversation on a topic
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Speaker 1: I know we all have a lot to say about,
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Speaker 1: so please help me. Welcome fellow celebrity mentors. Kelly ben Simone,
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Speaker 1: Alexia Napola, Hi.
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Speaker 2: Ladies, him Cheryl, Hi Kelly.
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Speaker 1: It's been so long, Alexia especially.
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Speaker 2: Yes, last time I saw you you were dancing with
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Speaker 2: one of my friends, William Levy. We went out to
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Speaker 2: LA and you guys obviously were my favorite couple and
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Speaker 2: you should have taken the trophy.
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Speaker 1: Right yeah, I think. I mean, people were drooling over
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Speaker 1: that guy. But how are you doing?
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Speaker 2: And over you two, by the way, because you're an
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Speaker 2: amazing dancer. You've always been favorite dancer, by the way, amazing.
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Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Where are you, Kelly?
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Speaker 3: I'm doing better, so much better.
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Speaker 4: You know, you and I have kind of been through
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Speaker 4: a lot together and I'm just feeling like, emotionally so
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Speaker 4: much stronger. But you know, with any kind of like
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Speaker 4: you know, unraveling of anything, it's it's twofold. It's emotional
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Speaker 4: and transactional and so there was just a lot of
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Speaker 4: money things I had to take care of which I
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Speaker 4: was not happy with, which actually made me more angry
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Speaker 4: than just not being together.
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Speaker 1: Right right, I hear you. I mean this is just
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Speaker 1: the rollercoaster of emotions. I'm sure.
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Speaker 3: Just wasting money is just not my thing.
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Speaker 1: It's a lesson learned, never a waste.
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Speaker 3: Twenty twenty five is going to be such a good year.
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Speaker 1: Though, It's going to be amazing.
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Speaker 2: Are you talking about the relationship you're in with your fiance?
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Speaker 3: Yes, I am done.
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Speaker 2: Okay, this summer.
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Speaker 3: So Cheryl has been so great.
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Speaker 4: We started doing this podcast together the very beginning, and
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Speaker 4: Cheryl taught me a lot about how to navigate but
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Speaker 4: also how to treat myself.
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Speaker 3: And you know, we're just we've.
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Speaker 4: Been through similar situations. I'm so excited.
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Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of us women have been
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Speaker 2: through situations like that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just not talked about as much.
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Speaker 2: Right, And I think it's so much better, at least
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Speaker 2: for me. You know, I think talking about it, especially
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Speaker 2: to somebody like Cheryl that's gone through it, or other
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Speaker 2: of our friends or women that I've gone through it,
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Speaker 2: it's that it's so much more relatable and they get it.
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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes your friends that haven't been in these
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Speaker 2: situations don't get it, and it's you know, and it's
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Speaker 2: really hard. So it's great that you've had Cheryl. And
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Speaker 2: I don't know if you have any any other friends,
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Speaker 2: but I know for me, my friends me, everything new
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Speaker 2: for use just been you. Well I'm just kidding.
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Speaker 3: I'm kidding.
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Speaker 1: Oh no, because you know what, Kelly's only friend, that's it.
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Speaker 2: You know, Well, I'm sure you give her good advice.
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Speaker 2: By the way, I was also reading. I started following you, Cheryl,
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Speaker 2: and I started reading like your interviews and your podcasts
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Speaker 2: and listening to them, and I'm loving them. I'm joining them,
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Speaker 2: and I'm also learning a lot through because I'm also
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Speaker 2: going through my own journey. But yeah, so it's great
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Speaker 2: to have you now also, you know, as as my
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Speaker 2: friend and as my place and tell you took.
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Speaker 1: I just need to follow my own advice. That's the
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Speaker 1: hard part.
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Speaker 2: Well, that's what happens to me, Cheryl. I give great
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Speaker 2: advice and then I'll apply it to myself. All my
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Speaker 2: friends come to me for advice and they're like, what
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Speaker 2: about you.
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Speaker 4: I always told Cheryl that she's the adult in the
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Speaker 4: room and she's teaching me and mentoring.
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Speaker 1: Only you knew what I did. Though, when you weren't
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Speaker 1: with me, I'd be like, wait a second, are you
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Speaker 1: been to a hypocrite or don't? Okay, do as I
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Speaker 1: do exactly exactly? That is that true?
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Speaker 2: Saying that is true?
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Speaker 1: That's my therapist. I'm like, how messed up is your life?
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Speaker 1: My therapist for the last fifteen years? Let's talk about you? Okay.
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Speaker 2: Well, my mom was a great psychiatrist and she gave
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Speaker 2: great like couple's therapy, and she had been to words
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Speaker 2: five times, so I was like, my mom, Like, she
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Speaker 2: divorced five times. I'm like, how can you? And she
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Speaker 2: would make everyone stay together and she was so good
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Speaker 2: at it, and yet in her life she was a mess.
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Speaker 1: Let's see if Dennis Dennis Petrano, if he has also
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Speaker 1: gone through many divorces. I'm hoping he has, because then
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Speaker 1: he'll really be able to relate.
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Speaker 2: Well, I feel like we've only gone through one, right,
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Speaker 2: us three, I've only got to one?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, only one for now?
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Speaker 2: Well, me me the same because my second one, my husband,
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Speaker 2: we never filed for divorce and he unfortunately passed away.
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Speaker 2: So I was technically a widow.
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Speaker 1: That's the one I met, I met, that's the one
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Speaker 1: you met her. I'm so sorry.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because he was a great man and so technically,
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Speaker 2: you know, we never filed for divorce or anything. We're
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Speaker 2: great friends, work together, and unfortunately, you know that happens.
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Speaker 2: And my third husband now, which is Todd, I'm still
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Speaker 2: married to him and I'm still trying to stay married.
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Speaker 2: Let's see what the well, let's see what no. I mean,
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Speaker 2: we're both trying to, you know, to make it.
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Speaker 1: Takes work, it works right, like it's it's always a
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Speaker 1: work in progress, like it's never too comfortable, you know
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Speaker 1: it is.
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Speaker 2: And I just think it's easier. I just think it's easier.
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Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people that's why they're
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Speaker 2: creating like so quickly, because it's just easier to walk away.
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Speaker 2: It takes so much work on both sides and so
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Speaker 2: much effort that, you know, sometimes I think people just
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Speaker 2: don't want to try so hard anymore.
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Speaker 1: Well, or it could be that like the one person
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Speaker 1: wants to work, but then you can't force the other
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Speaker 1: person to do the work either. And when that's the situation,
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Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do other than put yourself first
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Speaker 1: and walk away.
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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, that won't work. You definitely both.
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Speaker 3: You've had two relationships.
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Speaker 4: I only had one one like big relationship, one marriage.
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Speaker 3: And I it's.
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Speaker 4: Interesting because you know, I was like, well, howcome your
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Speaker 4: you're single?
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Speaker 3: Like basically like to what's wrong with you? I'm like, no, no, no,
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Speaker 3: I'm not single.
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Speaker 4: I'm just I'm just because I'm not in a relationship
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Speaker 4: doesn't mean I had a single mindset, right, I'm looking.
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Speaker 3: For the right person, not any person.
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Speaker 2: That is true. But are you okay with like being alone?
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Speaker 2: I think that that's mine. Oh yeah, yeah, well I
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Speaker 2: think now you are right because you went through your journey.
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Speaker 1: But my freak, I love it. I love it too much.
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Speaker 1: My therapist is worried about.
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Speaker 2: Me really because I know that's scary too. You so
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Speaker 2: you have a lot of friends like you share all
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Speaker 2: that I've been divorced, and they're so good being alone
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Speaker 2: that they really and you know, they're also celibate like
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Speaker 2: you by choice because they're just not going to they
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Speaker 2: just don't want another relationship.
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Speaker 3: Weird.
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Speaker 2: But I'm kind of scared of that to sharel I'm
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Speaker 2: not gonna lie because I feel like I'm just like
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Speaker 2: I know there's a difference between being alone and being lonely.
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Speaker 2: I would never be lonely because my life is very
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Speaker 2: complete and I have so much going on in my
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Speaker 2: life and I love my life, so I don't see
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Speaker 2: it that way. But I've always seen myself like with someone,
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Speaker 2: like my happiness doesn't depend on the person, but part
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Speaker 2: of my happiness, like in my vision board, is being
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Speaker 2: with someone and sharing my life.
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Speaker 1: I hear you, but you know there's going to be
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Speaker 1: ebbs and flows, like with anything with money, with relationships,
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Speaker 1: and I believe that it's never nothing's forever except you
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Speaker 1: are you forever, like you're stuck with you for the
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Speaker 1: rest of your life. You better like yourself. And I
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Speaker 1: think when it comes to I want to find someone
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Speaker 1: that makes me happy or those types of like statements
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Speaker 1: are really it's I would I hope one day that
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Speaker 1: And though I'm just saying this, it doesn't mean I'm
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Speaker 1: doing it, but like or practicing it. But the happiness
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Speaker 1: does you complete you right like And I think until
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Speaker 1: that really happens, then you start to attract the people
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Speaker 1: that are healthy, that are aren't looking for toxic relationships,
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Speaker 1: that are looking for no one to complete them because
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Speaker 1: they've already completed themselves. Like there's nobody's going to fill
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Speaker 1: that void for you.
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Speaker 3: I totally agree with that.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that, like, you know, for me, like
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Speaker 4: it's not that I you know, I've been lonely. I've
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Speaker 4: just been alone, but I've also been raising two kids
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Speaker 4: on my own, and so so now like even my
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Speaker 4: you know, my youngest is still living with me, and
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Speaker 4: you know, I I'm definitely looking to be with someone's special, definitely,
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Speaker 4: and I've always been open to that. But you know,
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Speaker 4: when you're a full time single parent, you don't think,
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Speaker 4: you know, you're not like, Okay, I'll.
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Speaker 3: Just you know, dump my kids for some guy. It's
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Speaker 3: not going to happen.
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Speaker 1: No, hopefully not.
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Speaker 2: I would never do that. No not you well, no,
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Speaker 2: you haven't done it. So I don't think at this
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Speaker 2: point in your life, you know, whoever comes to your
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Speaker 2: life knows that your children are a priority and they're
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Speaker 2: you know, you're a package, you know, And that's what
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Speaker 2: men that date women with kids have to understand. And
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Speaker 2: that can also be a problem in relationships.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 2: I feel like women that come into relationships with no
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Speaker 2: kids because they don't want then it could work again,
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Speaker 2: it really depends on the person that you're dating, you know. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: so it's very relative.
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Speaker 1: Should we bring in our guests, you guys, this is
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Speaker 1: going to be exciting. He's a talker and I can't
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Speaker 1: wait to have him on. So yeah, I know exactly
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Speaker 1: how long you got folks. Okay, so today we're going
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Speaker 1: to dive deep into the topic of divorce and ask
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Speaker 1: all the questions that we wished we'd ask when we
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Speaker 1: were going through it, or things you should be considering
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Speaker 1: the second time around. Our guest today is a divorce
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Speaker 1: attorney mediator and has the best TikTok feed full of
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Speaker 1: helpful information. This is very true. Please welcome Dennis the
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Speaker 1: Toronto to the podcast. Welcome, Hi, how are you meet
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Speaker 1: all of us? Have you heard I do Part two? Yes?
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Speaker 5: Well recently, yes, I've been. I've been kind of binging
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Speaker 5: on it a little bit. So yeah, yeah for sure.
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Speaker 1: So I guess tell us about yourself first and then
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Speaker 1: we'll just We've got tons of questions for you.
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Speaker 5: Okay. Ooh, I'm frightened now should I should I be intimidated? Fine?
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Speaker 5: I will, I'm fine. I'm used to asking the questions,
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Speaker 5: but ill but I'll answer them too. So twenty five
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Speaker 5: years practicing attorney, I've been doing predominantly divorced and family
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Speaker 5: li litigation throughout that time frame, and probably say maybe
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Speaker 5: about the past five years, just trying to take what
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Speaker 5: I've learned from being a divorce and family low litigation
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Speaker 5: attorney for twenty five years and try to like and
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Speaker 5: all the stories I've heard and all the horror stories,
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Speaker 5: and try to like rewind and say, like, how do
10:20
Speaker 5: we look at the mistakes that are made in marriages
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Speaker 5: and relationships that lead you to those divorces and those
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Speaker 5: contentious you know, drawn out, knock down, drag out divorces,
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Speaker 5: and rewind like what could we have done to avoid
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Speaker 5: that from the start? Like what are the signs that
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Speaker 5: we saw or maybe didn't see, should have seen that
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Speaker 5: we could have fixed along the way to not end
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Speaker 5: up in my office?
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Speaker 1: So right, right, But then also it's good for you
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Speaker 1: to fand up in your office, right exactly?
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Speaker 5: I mean, look it is, but I think you know,
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Speaker 5: Look I tell people people always say, you know, I
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Speaker 5: do so much on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that,
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Speaker 5: And I've been doing videos for a long time about divorces.
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Speaker 5: You know, a lot of the knocks and a lot
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Speaker 5: of the guys especially, will say, oh, this guy just
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Speaker 5: wants to get your money. It's like no, It's like, you.
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Speaker 2: Know, what, do you represent men more or women? Your
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Speaker 2: clientele is the more ladies or men.
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Speaker 5: I find that it's been about fifty to fifty for
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Speaker 5: the longest time, but probably over the past handful of years,
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Speaker 5: I've probably been representing more women than men, you know.
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Speaker 5: And I find for me it's it dovetails more nicely
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Speaker 5: with the way I approach these cases, and really what
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Speaker 5: I believe in in that, like you know my experiences,
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Speaker 5: women tend to be more introspective, They tend to be
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Speaker 5: more open to counseling, They tend to be more open
11:37
Speaker 5: to listen to you. And I think that you know,
11:39
Speaker 5: as a professional in this space and wanting to help
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Speaker 5: people you know, have a healthy, successful life, it just
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Speaker 5: it just works better that sort of relationship.
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Speaker 1: Are you divorced?
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Speaker 5: No?
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Speaker 3: Are you married?
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Speaker 5: I am married? Okay, I am married to kids.
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Speaker 2: How long have you been married.
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Speaker 5: We've been married since two thousand and seven September one,
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Speaker 5: two thousand and seven.
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Speaker 1: So okay.
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Speaker 5: How good is my math?
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Speaker 3: Here.
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Speaker 5: Uh so roughly about fourteen years.
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Speaker 1: Now, do you rep yourself if anything were to happen,
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Speaker 1: or do you have colleagues that you would Oh?
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Speaker 2: Do you not?
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Speaker 1: Even would not use a divorce attorney? Maybe?
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Speaker 5: Now this is funny because I don't even have a prenup.
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Speaker 1: You know, this goes back, girls to what we were saying,
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Speaker 1: like we could preach all we want.
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Speaker 5: When we first met. I didn't need a prenup. She did.
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Speaker 5: So let's put at that very accomplished woman.
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Speaker 1: My wife. Yeah, so did you sign one?
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Speaker 5: No, no, we don't. We don't have a prenup.
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Speaker 2: Because it's their first marriage, right.
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Speaker 5: Right, right, right, right, we're beginners.
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Speaker 1: Well, I mean I had a prenup from the beginning.
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Speaker 6: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: I think it's funny because clients and even just really anybody,
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Speaker 5: I think it's a good idea to have a prenup,
12:54
Speaker 5: and people are surprised about the reasons why I think
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Speaker 5: you should have a prenup.
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Speaker 3: I think, why do you like prenups?
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Speaker 5: I think you should have a prep not for the
13:01
Speaker 5: conventional reasons why people typically do prenups. I think you
13:04
Speaker 5: should have a prenup because you have more disclosure, you
13:08
Speaker 5: have more open honesty. You're having tougher conversations before the
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Speaker 5: marriage starts that many people are just not ready for.
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Speaker 5: You know, people don't want to talk about, hey, what
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Speaker 5: happens if we get divorced. People don't want to talk
13:22
Speaker 5: about how much debt do you have? Like where do
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Speaker 5: you make? Where do you make your money?
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Speaker 2: Don't you think that that affects the couple as far
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Speaker 2: as where the relationship is going to go. You know,
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Speaker 2: like you said, there's a lot of disclosure, there's you know,
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Speaker 2: there's honesty. You have to be transparent. It's uncomfortable. I'm
13:41
Speaker 2: being honest. I mean it's uncomfortable than the main things
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Speaker 2: that like your you know, like oh you just like
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Speaker 2: want my money?
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Speaker 1: And you know what else is uncomfortable childbirth, which I've
13:49
Speaker 1: never experienced, but like that is also I'm assuming super uncomfortable.
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Speaker 1: So it's like we have to have these conversations regardless.
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Speaker 1: Better to do it before you say, I do.
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Speaker 2: I think, Well, I feel like some couples today. I
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Speaker 2: mean maybe I'm wrong, but baby, I think that people
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Speaker 2: aren't getting married and couples like I have friends of mine,
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna be honest, and they've been engaged and they
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Speaker 2: are avoiding marriage because they don't want to sit down
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Speaker 2: and work on a pre up.
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Speaker 1: Well that's their problem.
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Speaker 3: So I didn't have a preenup for my first marriage.
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Speaker 2: I did not have a prenup.
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Speaker 3: And you know, I don't feel like I don't, you know,
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Speaker 3: I don't. I don't.
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Speaker 4: I didn't feel like I needed one because I was
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Speaker 4: so young. But you know, if my when my daughters,
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Speaker 4: you know, find you know, the love of their life,
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Speaker 4: I'm definitely definitely going to make them get prenups.
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Speaker 3: But I did not. I did not have that. We're
14:49
Speaker 3: not because I was, you know, twenty six years old.
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Speaker 4: But you know, it's just a totally different world now
14:55
Speaker 4: than it was.
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Speaker 1: Then, Well tell them your story, your story.
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Speaker 4: I mean, I think that that's the dentists made that
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Speaker 4: really good point that a prenup is kind of like
15:04
Speaker 4: what would happen if you get divorced, and so it's
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Speaker 4: it's basically the same kind of it's a.
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Speaker 3: Contract, and so it's it's basically the same to kind
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Speaker 3: of document you can speak to that. Why don't you
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Speaker 3: tell us the difference?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, But I mean, here's the thing. I mean, I
15:19
Speaker 5: think I think, look, you know prenups. I'll get into
15:22
Speaker 5: what prenup is and and why it's important from a
15:26
Speaker 5: legal standpoint, but I think prenups I think are important
15:31
Speaker 5: because you need to choose. Look, successful marriages, in my opinion,
15:36
Speaker 5: start off with choosing well. The finances are necessarily part
15:42
Speaker 5: of it. How do you make your money? How do
15:44
Speaker 5: you spend your money? Are you you are? When you
15:47
Speaker 5: marry someone, you are extending this level of trust to
15:51
Speaker 5: this individual. That Jesus if they can't talk to you
15:54
Speaker 5: about what their debts are or how they make their money,
15:57
Speaker 5: or or like you know, how many bills do they
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Speaker 5: have or what their credit score is? I mean, listen,
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Speaker 5: you're like trusting your soul, your heart with this person
16:08
Speaker 5: and they can't trust you to tell you what they
16:10
Speaker 5: make or like you know these things. There needs to
16:14
Speaker 5: be full disclosure. There needs to be because again, like I said,
16:17
Speaker 5: successful long lasting marriages start with choosing well. And I
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Speaker 5: think the prenup is a tool.
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Speaker 1: And open communication right right, that's it.
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Speaker 5: Yes, Yes, open communication from the get go on the
16:32
Speaker 5: things that are most you're right.
16:36
Speaker 1: And vulnerable and transparency and all of it. Like, but
16:39
Speaker 1: don't you think before marrying somebody that these conversations, like
16:43
Speaker 1: it's common sense because if let's say you don't do it,
16:47
Speaker 1: your life is going to be a living. This person's
16:49
Speaker 1: going to be in your life no matter if whatever
16:51
Speaker 1: happened happened, like for the rest of your life, and
16:54
Speaker 1: that is forever, you know, like that, it's just a
16:57
Speaker 1: nightmare situation. Yeah, especially I can't speak to that, but ye, yes.
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Speaker 4: So Dennis, are you more likely or less likely to
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Speaker 4: get divorced throughout the second time around if your marriage
17:09
Speaker 4: and if your first marriage ended in divorce?
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Speaker 5: Well, I think Look, we know second marriages fail to
17:15
Speaker 5: the tune of about seventy something percent. You know, the
17:18
Speaker 5: first marriages are roughly about fifty percent.
17:21
Speaker 2: What about the third marriage?
17:23
Speaker 5: Well, right, marriage, I don't I don't remember, right. I
17:28
Speaker 5: think it's going up. I think part of the reason
17:30
Speaker 5: is we're we're worried about the wrong things when our
17:35
Speaker 5: relationship fails. We're worried about the stigma associated with it.
17:39
Speaker 5: We're worried about the shame. We're worried about protecting our kids,
17:43
Speaker 5: We're worried about what our friends are saying about us,
17:45
Speaker 5: when really what we need to be worrying about is ourselves.
17:49
Speaker 5: And getting to getting reacquainted with ourselves, taking the time
17:54
Speaker 5: to do that, taking the time to date, and no,
17:57
Speaker 5: you know know what you're looking for. I think we yes,
18:01
Speaker 5: right right away.
18:03
Speaker 2: Cheryl doesn't agree with that, Dennis.
18:05
Speaker 4: Isn't it also that when you get divorced after the
18:07
Speaker 4: first time and then you get married again, it's probably
18:10
Speaker 4: easier to get divorced the second time because you already
18:13
Speaker 4: know what's at stake.
18:15
Speaker 1: We can just copy the prenup like we could just
18:17
Speaker 1: make another copy and just change the name.
18:19
Speaker 5: That's a good point.
18:21
Speaker 4: That's not good, that's I mean, Listen, I believe in,
18:25
Speaker 4: you know, I believe in divorce. I believe in you know,
18:28
Speaker 4: if things aren't working out. I definitely believe in making
18:31
Speaker 4: better choices for yourself and for your family one hundred percent.
18:35
Speaker 4: But I do also think that once you've done it,
18:39
Speaker 4: you're gonna do it again.
18:40
Speaker 1: You know, Are you going to mean nothing's forever?
18:42
Speaker 6: No?
18:42
Speaker 3: I don't, Cheryl.
18:45
Speaker 5: Maybe, I mean I think, look, I was always a proponent.
18:48
Speaker 5: Now this is a divorce lawyer who was always a proponent,
18:50
Speaker 5: who said, Hey, you gotta wait, you gotta take time.
18:53
Speaker 5: You really got to heal yourself. You got to get
18:55
Speaker 5: to know yourself. Yes, I'm still that's that's absolutely the
18:58
Speaker 5: way I feel. However, or you know, I've been over
19:03
Speaker 5: the past year or so, I've been doing some podcasts
19:05
Speaker 5: talking with some people in this space, and one of
19:07
Speaker 5: the gentlemen who was divorced suggested, he said, I actually
19:11
Speaker 5: started dating early on, he said, but I just went
19:14
Speaker 5: out and went for a cup of coffee, and so
19:17
Speaker 5: typical just give. But listen, no, no, no, no, this
19:21
Speaker 5: this particular individual was is very introspective about it, different
19:26
Speaker 5: than most guys in these spaces because, believe me, I
19:29
Speaker 5: get I totally understand where you're coming from. But his
19:31
Speaker 5: point was I needed to figure out what I was
19:36
Speaker 5: looking for, and part of rediscovering myself was knowing the
19:40
Speaker 5: type of person that I wanted to be with or
19:43
Speaker 5: did not want to be with. And he thought, and
19:48
Speaker 5: I think that's part of it.
19:50
Speaker 1: This is the thing You're never going to get anything
19:52
Speaker 1: from anybody else, Like you need to figure out yourself, true,
19:56
Speaker 1: like you as the individual, because nobody is going to
19:59
Speaker 1: fill your cup up other than yourself. No one's gonna
20:02
Speaker 1: fill in a void. And that is just the way
20:04
Speaker 1: it is, right.
20:05
Speaker 6: So I agree, can you to look and look and look, look,
20:08
Speaker 6: look like what do you You're never going to be
20:10
Speaker 6: satisfied because you haven't filled yourself up with anything other
20:13
Speaker 6: than looking for someone to fill it for you.
20:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like a lot of men are do
20:17
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, Sherul. They're like, okay, well you
20:20
Speaker 2: know what, I'm just gonna go look and as an excuse,
20:23
Speaker 2: you know, what's interesting.
20:24
Speaker 3: Is just the recent dating. And you know it's interesting
20:27
Speaker 3: because the guys that I've been.
20:29
Speaker 4: Dating, who are They're all like, very nice guys, but
20:32
Speaker 4: they all say the same thing to me. They're like,
20:35
Speaker 4: I'm not the same as him. You know, there are
20:38
Speaker 4: certain things I would never do, and kind of putting
20:41
Speaker 4: it into my head that you know, what I was
20:45
Speaker 4: doing was wrong and that they're so great and that
20:49
Speaker 4: I'm so bad, and I'm like, wait, a red flag.
20:51
Speaker 4: Oh no, that's a red flag, my friend gaslating me
20:55
Speaker 4: from my own experience.
20:57
Speaker 1: Like yes, yeah, correct, that's exactly what's happening.
20:59
Speaker 4: Because as I failed, now you're gonna make me worse
21:02
Speaker 4: about failing.
21:03
Speaker 1: Flag red flag.
21:05
Speaker 5: You can't walk away from those relationships feeling like you
21:11
Speaker 5: like you made a mistake, like you were to blame.
21:14
Speaker 5: You can't. You can't because you never I mean, the
21:17
Speaker 5: point is it's it's about not because I think it's
21:20
Speaker 5: societal in large part, and I think I do think
21:24
Speaker 5: to a certain degree it is specific to women in
21:26
Speaker 5: that they feel that sense of shame, that sense of
21:29
Speaker 5: responsibility for the failed relationships that in large part from
21:33
Speaker 5: my experience, guys don't really feel. They don't see it.
21:36
Speaker 5: They don't get it in the same way.
21:37
Speaker 1: I know it's because you don't want to get it.
21:40
Speaker 1: We'll all human like, really, it's all about self awareness,
21:44
Speaker 1: is what we're saying.
21:44
Speaker 4: And also that they always talk about like a woman's
21:47
Speaker 4: everyone's like it was like a woman is already a
21:50
Speaker 4: woman's scorn, What about a man scorn?
21:52
Speaker 1: No, they have it, but like do they ever take
21:55
Speaker 1: the time? I mean, I'm not talking generally obviously, Like
21:58
Speaker 1: there are men. I actually have met men that are
22:00
Speaker 1: very self aware that want to continue to evolve because
22:03
Speaker 1: no matter if you want to or not, weren't evolving, right,
22:06
Speaker 1: And that's human nature. And if you say to me
22:09
Speaker 1: that if there's no shame when it comes to like
22:12
Speaker 1: any relationship, every female male, non binary, it doesn't matter,
22:16
Speaker 1: like we all have feelings, you're just the difference is
22:19
Speaker 1: is that we are saying it out loud to take
22:22
Speaker 1: the shame away. Because I believe when you say how
22:24
Speaker 1: you feel and you express it, especially whether it's podcasting,
22:27
Speaker 1: you're just talking to her friend, the shame does slowly
22:30
Speaker 1: strip away. But for men, they just continue on. Not
22:33
Speaker 1: all men, Some men don't admit their feelings to themselves
22:38
Speaker 1: and just continue to numb. Whether that's date other women
22:40
Speaker 1: have sex with different women every single day, or maybe
22:44
Speaker 1: it's productivity that they're addicted to, you know, like it's
22:46
Speaker 1: just there's so much you can do to them.
22:49
Speaker 2: That's like a certain personality trait and personality style. And
22:53
Speaker 2: then not all men are like that, no, because you
22:55
Speaker 2: know there are men that you know have a field
22:57
Speaker 2: marriage and you know they, yeah, they're upset about it.
23:00
Speaker 2: You know, they get better. I know, I feel like
23:02
Speaker 2: men need to have a woman more. Like we were
23:04
Speaker 2: talking about, like how Kelly and I want to like meet,
23:06
Speaker 2: you know, like that meet. In this case, I'm you know,
23:08
Speaker 2: I'm still with my husband, taught, but I'm just saying
23:11
Speaker 2: that I would never be alone. I'm not just that
23:13
Speaker 2: kind of woman that I like to be in a
23:15
Speaker 2: relationship with a man, And so what I'm trying to
23:19
Speaker 2: say is that there's a lot of men, and I
23:22
Speaker 2: feel like men are needier that way that they need
23:25
Speaker 2: to once they're done with the relationship or with their marriage,
23:28
Speaker 2: they also need to go out and find a woman.
23:32
Speaker 2: Like they can't be alone. I feel like men have
23:33
Speaker 2: a harder time being alone with women.
23:35
Speaker 1: But I have met men that could be alone too.
23:37
Speaker 1: It's rare, but it happens.
23:40
Speaker 2: Right, I mean they can, but they have like ten
23:42
Speaker 2: women at the same time, so they may not have
23:43
Speaker 2: one woman, but they're like, you know, talking to ten
23:46
Speaker 2: different women, and you know, they're just like serial daters
23:48
Speaker 2: or whatever.
23:49
Speaker 1: Yes, we're built differently, I guess.
23:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, But I think that's right. I think when you say,
23:53
Speaker 5: I mean when you use the phrase self evaluate and
23:58
Speaker 5: evolve and improve self awareness, right, I think that's the
24:02
Speaker 5: piece that's missing to a certain degree with guys. And
24:05
Speaker 5: not all guys. Listen, there's no one size fits all
24:08
Speaker 5: with any of this. There is not. Everybody's their own
24:11
Speaker 5: individual and every relationship is its own thing. But I
24:14
Speaker 5: think that's one of the things. The vast majority of
24:17
Speaker 5: the guys that I deal with, they seem to miss
24:19
Speaker 5: like and and when you say, like, hey, but what
24:22
Speaker 5: about this you could have done better? What about that
24:25
Speaker 5: you could have worked on? It's like, oh no, no,
24:27
Speaker 5: I'm always the bad guy. You know, what did you
24:30
Speaker 5: do wrong? What did whoa? Stop pointing to other people,
24:34
Speaker 5: stop deflecting, stop being defensive, Like just step back. They
24:39
Speaker 5: always say, like there's a reason why you have two
24:41
Speaker 5: ears in one mouth, right, because you're supposed to do
24:43
Speaker 5: twice as much listening as you do talking. But I
24:45
Speaker 5: think a lot of times with guys, they're not good
24:47
Speaker 5: at that. And it's not every guy, but it's on
24:50
Speaker 5: average that's what I see. So like, just sit down,
24:53
Speaker 5: like shut up, just listen and like like digest it
24:56
Speaker 5: and like be self aware, right or self evaluated.
24:59
Speaker 1: Go to it a meeting. You're gonna hear a bunch
25:01
Speaker 1: of men who are taking accountability because you have to.
25:05
Speaker 1: That's part of the program that I'm in as well,
25:07
Speaker 1: Like you have to take accountability for your addiction, right,
25:11
Speaker 1: that's the only way to get better and to be
25:14
Speaker 1: sober and take everything one day at a time. Until
25:17
Speaker 1: you first point the finger at yourself, there is no
25:19
Speaker 1: way you know you're going down a slippery slope. So like,
25:23
Speaker 1: those are the types of men that when you know,
25:25
Speaker 1: I go to meetings like, there are men out there
25:28
Speaker 1: like that, and that's not It's the sexiest thing in
25:30
Speaker 1: the world when a man takes accountability, when anybody, I
25:33
Speaker 1: don't care what gender or non gender, it is the
25:37
Speaker 1: sexiest thing. It shows confidence, It shows stability, it shows
25:41
Speaker 1: security for me at least I think.
25:43
Speaker 5: And when I have guys here like and complain like, oh,
25:46
Speaker 5: you know, there's no physical intimacy with my wife and
25:48
Speaker 5: this not happens like like, but you're not responsible, You're
25:51
Speaker 5: not like you're listening, You're not like you know, like,
25:56
Speaker 5: come on, man.
25:57
Speaker 2: Do you think that that's one of the main causes
26:00
Speaker 2: and in the cases that you see, do you think
26:02
Speaker 2: it's one of the big factors why people go apart
26:07
Speaker 2: or there's you know, divorce.
26:09
Speaker 5: Lack of physical intimacy, right.
26:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, well lack of any obviously, any intimacy emotional or physical.
26:15
Speaker 2: But I feel like I have I know of people
26:17
Speaker 2: that have been married five six seven years. I mean
26:19
Speaker 2: they've been married for years and they haven't been intimate
26:23
Speaker 2: for five six seven years and they're okay with it.
26:26
Speaker 1: I think that's okay.
26:28
Speaker 5: That's a really good question, because in twenty five years
26:31
Speaker 5: of doing this, I think that's what I've gotten throughout
26:35
Speaker 5: no physical intimacy for years and people living in it.
26:39
Speaker 5: What I've been getting over say the past year to
26:41
Speaker 5: two years is people walking into my office and saying,
26:44
Speaker 5: we haven't had sex in five years. I can't live
26:47
Speaker 5: like that anymore.
26:48
Speaker 2: I know, it's crazy. I hear these stories also because
26:50
Speaker 2: you know, I have a lot of friends, I own
26:52
Speaker 2: a beauty bar.
26:53
Speaker 5: And historically I didn't hear that as much.
27:04
Speaker 4: So DN when they come into your office, what's the
27:07
Speaker 4: what are the most important questions that people should ask
27:10
Speaker 4: considering a divorce, Like give us like three questions.
27:14
Speaker 5: I mean I think, look, I think with divorce lawyers,
27:18
Speaker 5: you need to I would probably hang on from me.
27:22
Speaker 5: I would probably hang on is the lawyer, like like, look,
27:24
Speaker 5: there are specific questions you can ask, but like a
27:27
Speaker 5: lot of times people don't even know what questions they ask.
27:29
Speaker 5: I mean, you can ask like, hey, you know what's
27:31
Speaker 5: going to happen with the house and the event of
27:33
Speaker 5: a divorce, like what happens with my kids? What do
27:35
Speaker 5: I need to gather? What do I need to prove.
27:37
Speaker 5: But I think it's more about asking, Like, it's more
27:41
Speaker 5: about preparing before you go into the office with the
27:44
Speaker 5: questions that you have off the top of your head
27:46
Speaker 5: and gauge what people's answers are, what the lawyer's answers are,
27:51
Speaker 5: you know, I feel like with lawyers, it's it's important
27:53
Speaker 5: to have a full picture, right. So if you walk
27:56
Speaker 5: into to you know, work with a dentist, or have
28:01
Speaker 5: somebody do you know a medical procedure, or you walk
28:04
Speaker 5: in for anything, You're going to be analyzing what does
28:07
Speaker 5: the office look like, How does the staff speak to me,
28:09
Speaker 5: How do they treat me? How attentive are they when
28:12
Speaker 5: I talk to this lawyer, Like do they sound like
28:15
Speaker 5: they know what they're talking about? Because funny, when I
28:17
Speaker 5: first started practicing as a lawyer, I used to do consults,
28:21
Speaker 5: right as you can imagine. And when I would do
28:23
Speaker 5: a consult, you know, I tell my boss, I've done
28:25
Speaker 5: three or four consults and nobody's hiring me. And then
28:28
Speaker 5: when I started doing it longer, everybody was hiring me.
28:31
Speaker 5: And I came to the conclusion that you don't need
28:34
Speaker 5: to be a lawyer to know when a lawyer's good.
28:38
Speaker 5: You don't need to have any specialized legal knowledge because
28:41
Speaker 5: when somebody's good at something, they exude confidence. You can
28:45
Speaker 5: see it, you can feel it. It's an energy. So
28:48
Speaker 5: you got to look for.
28:49
Speaker 1: That and do they listen? Right?
28:52
Speaker 5: So perfect example, I had a client that came into
28:55
Speaker 5: my office maybe about like I don't know, like maybe
28:57
Speaker 5: three or four years ago, and they said, you know
28:59
Speaker 5: I hired you. I said, because when I went into
29:01
Speaker 5: your competitor's office while I was talking to him, he
29:04
Speaker 5: was texting on his phone to say, Oh, hell no,
29:07
Speaker 5: you gotta be kidding, literally texting, And I'm disgusting. Not
29:13
Speaker 5: only is that not a lawyer you would want to hire,
29:16
Speaker 5: but that's rude. It's just rude. Even if we were
29:19
Speaker 5: having a conversation at the coffee shop, I wouldn't be
29:21
Speaker 5: texting live.
29:22
Speaker 3: I had a mediator. I hired a mediator to.
29:27
Speaker 4: You know, organize my ex husband and I because you know,
29:32
Speaker 4: first of all, I didn't want my children.
29:34
Speaker 3: So my biggest thing was the house.
29:37
Speaker 4: Whatever money was not like I was just that that
29:39
Speaker 4: was what I was worried concerned about. I was very
29:41
Speaker 4: concerned about my kids and how things would be perceived
29:46
Speaker 4: for my kids and my youngest daughter. She went to
29:50
Speaker 4: they were they you know, they found out that that uh,
29:54
Speaker 4: my ex husband and I were getting divorced, and my
29:56
Speaker 4: and they went into talk to my youngest daughter and
29:58
Speaker 4: they said, you know, how are you And she goes, oh,
30:01
Speaker 4: you know your parents are getting divorced.
30:02
Speaker 3: How are you?
30:02
Speaker 4: And she goes, oh, my parents are separated, and she goes,
30:05
Speaker 4: everything's great and and they're like, no, no, no, you're your
30:09
Speaker 4: parents are getting divorced. And she's like, yeah, they're separated.
30:11
Speaker 4: They're not They're not getting divorced, so just they're separated.
30:14
Speaker 4: She didn't know the difference because she was young, but
30:17
Speaker 4: then later on she always says like, mom, I never
30:19
Speaker 4: even both of them are like I never even felt
30:22
Speaker 4: any of like the aftermath of a divorce because you
30:25
Speaker 4: just like like literally just took over. Which was great
30:30
Speaker 4: for them, but really really bad for me. It was
30:32
Speaker 4: really really difficult for me.
30:34
Speaker 3: It was really did or I did not go to therapy?
30:38
Speaker 1: I were them your kids?
30:40
Speaker 4: No, no, my kids did go to some therapy. But
30:43
Speaker 4: literally right after I like, was, you know, how am
30:46
Speaker 4: I going to make money? You know now that I
30:48
Speaker 4: you know, I'm going to be on my own with
30:50
Speaker 4: these two girls and they need to have education.
30:52
Speaker 3: What am I going to do? And so I literally
30:54
Speaker 3: went on.
30:55
Speaker 4: Housewives back when it was like, you know, totally different game,
30:59
Speaker 4: and it was it was probably it was probably one
31:03
Speaker 4: of the worst decisions that I had made. I mean,
31:05
Speaker 4: there was so many great things that happened from being
31:07
Speaker 4: a house.
31:07
Speaker 1: I can help. Yeah, there was a.
31:09
Speaker 4: Paycheck, but it was just I was not prepared emotionally
31:14
Speaker 4: for like.
31:15
Speaker 3: This is different.
31:16
Speaker 4: Like I talked to Cheryl and I like literally have
31:18
Speaker 4: cried in front of Cheryl, like I'm like, this is
31:20
Speaker 4: like how I'm feeling. And you know, she has a
31:23
Speaker 4: lot of empathy and she's you know, and Alexi and
31:26
Speaker 4: I don't know each other that well, but I can,
31:28
Speaker 4: you know, I just from hearing her story, I feel
31:30
Speaker 4: comfortable talking to her.
31:32
Speaker 3: And obviously you're a lawyer, but you know, when I was.
31:35
Speaker 4: On that show, I did not feel comfortable talking to
31:37
Speaker 4: them about anything.
31:39
Speaker 2: It's hard. I'm on that show, Kelly, as you know,
31:41
Speaker 2: and it is hard.
31:42
Speaker 3: There's just no camaraderie.
31:43
Speaker 2: And they were, oh, you know, I've been lucky enough
31:47
Speaker 2: that I have a best friend online, but like when
31:49
Speaker 2: you did it, I felt like back in the day, right, Kelly,
31:51
Speaker 2: I felt the same because you know, our show started
31:53
Speaker 2: in twenty ten. I know year started before. But with
31:56
Speaker 2: that being said, back in the day, it was like
31:58
Speaker 2: everybody was so against each other. I think it's not
32:00
Speaker 2: a little better, it's still you still it will see
32:03
Speaker 2: that a lot awful. But I'm lucky enough that I
32:05
Speaker 2: have my best friend on the show. So like I
32:08
Speaker 2: knew Lucky at her, I did not very lucky.
32:10
Speaker 3: It had no I.
32:11
Speaker 4: Literally knew Luan. Like for a second at from a party,
32:14
Speaker 4: I didn't knew no one. And so for me just
32:17
Speaker 4: going into that knowing that I needed to make money
32:20
Speaker 4: and knowing that I need to provide for my kids,
32:22
Speaker 4: and going into that after having a.
32:24
Speaker 3: Mediator, it was just it was very stressful.
32:27
Speaker 4: So I kind of I wish there was someone who
32:30
Speaker 4: can say, like men or women, like you're getting divorced,
32:33
Speaker 4: you know, here the here First of all, here are
32:35
Speaker 4: the questions to ask me, and then afterwards, like what
32:39
Speaker 4: are you going to do to start your new life?
32:41
Speaker 2: Well, everyone's situation is very different, O Kelly. Yeah, everyone's
32:45
Speaker 2: situation is very different.
32:46
Speaker 1: When does somebody hire a divorce attorney? Do you do
32:49
Speaker 1: this like when you're like still technically married before you've
32:53
Speaker 1: made the decision to separate, or or what is your advice?
32:57
Speaker 5: I mean, I think, Look, you talked to a divorce
32:58
Speaker 5: lawyer as early on as you can. I think that's
33:01
Speaker 5: the most important thing, because you know, and I tell
33:03
Speaker 5: clients when they go into lawyers ze.
33:05
Speaker 2: So what does that mean as you're still living together.
33:07
Speaker 5: Let's put it this way. If you've ever had the
33:09
Speaker 5: idea cross your mind of divorce, if you've ever said
33:13
Speaker 5: it in a conversation in anger or otherwise, you should
33:16
Speaker 5: talk to a divorce lawyer behind you. Of course, of
33:21
Speaker 5: course people do it all the time, and I will
33:23
Speaker 5: tell you so. So I'll share a no story with
33:25
Speaker 5: you represented a a stay at home mom. You know, God,
33:30
Speaker 5: maybe about ten years ago. Now she's in the office.
33:33
Speaker 5: Oh he would never know I was here, blah blah blah.
33:36
Speaker 5: Find out throughout the course of the litigation. Two years later.
33:40
Speaker 5: He talked to a lawyer eight months earlier than she did. So,
33:45
Speaker 5: so when you think that they haven't spoken with anybody,
33:48
Speaker 5: this is.
33:49
Speaker 1: Part of the protect yourself first, like first.
33:52
Speaker 3: Or you know what happens in New York and Dennis,
33:54
Speaker 3: you it is that.
33:55
Speaker 4: What happens is that a lot of people they go
33:58
Speaker 4: and they talk to every single lawyer and so.
34:01
Speaker 5: Then conflict them out. That's a that's a dirty trick,
34:04
Speaker 5: it really is.
34:05
Speaker 2: Why can't you just like sit down with your partner
34:07
Speaker 2: before before going behind their back and having that conversation
34:11
Speaker 2: you know you're here encouraging its situation situational? Well, I
34:15
Speaker 2: mean that sounds like it's pretty bad. I mean, I
34:18
Speaker 2: feel like if you have to leave, you have to
34:19
Speaker 2: go see an attorney, and you know you can't you
34:22
Speaker 2: haven't had that conversation with your spouse. I think it's
34:26
Speaker 2: it's a betrayal. I honestly do. I mean, and for me,
34:29
Speaker 2: I mean not a betrayal because it hasn't happened. But
34:32
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say is if you feel the
34:34
Speaker 2: need that you have to go see an attorney before
34:36
Speaker 2: sitting down with your wife and having that conversation, just
34:40
Speaker 2: like you had it about their premium.
34:42
Speaker 1: What if you can't have a conversation, well, stand up, No, No,
34:45
Speaker 1: I don't mean it literal like that. I don't mean
34:47
Speaker 1: it literal like what if you've already tried to the
34:50
Speaker 1: point where like you've gone a couple's therapy. But then
34:52
Speaker 1: let's say someone it's the act of infidelity. Right, let's
34:55
Speaker 1: just say that this is the situation.
34:57
Speaker 2: Well, then you're ready for divorce and that's a deal
34:59
Speaker 2: breaker for you. But think that you both should know.
35:01
Speaker 2: And by the way, okay, you cheated on me, so
35:03
Speaker 2: you know we're going for divorce.
35:05
Speaker 1: And for the person though who makes the most money
35:07
Speaker 1: has to sometimes, like I think, in California at least
35:11
Speaker 1: you have to almost hire the attorney for your spouse.
35:14
Speaker 1: Is that correct?
35:15
Speaker 5: Well, in New York State, I mean, you know there
35:17
Speaker 5: is an attorneys space. Yeah, but again I think California
35:22
Speaker 5: may be the same. But I think, look, I think
35:24
Speaker 5: just just to your point, just to your point, if
35:27
Speaker 5: you're thinking about divorce and you're saying these things in
35:31
Speaker 5: conversations or it's crossing your life, you should absolutely talk
35:36
Speaker 5: to them about the problems first. Yeah. And if, like
35:38
Speaker 5: you said, if they're in a position where they're that
35:41
Speaker 5: person where it's like, hey, I'm gonna stonewall you or
35:43
Speaker 5: i'm gonna place blame you. Try you get a professional involved.
35:49
Speaker 5: You maybe go to a marriage counselor not. Maybe probably
35:51
Speaker 5: go to a marriage counselor or someone you feel like
35:54
Speaker 5: you can trust and if and if they're because listen,
35:57
Speaker 5: in my experience, especially when the women that I represent,
36:01
Speaker 5: that marriage has been over four years before they.
36:05
Speaker 2: Come into my office, it's usually like that.
36:07
Speaker 5: So they've they've tried, and they've tried, and they've tried,
36:09
Speaker 5: and they've tried, and there have been conversations, or they
36:11
Speaker 5: get stonewall, or there's worse yet, there's domestic violence.
36:14
Speaker 2: Like no, I feel like you should just tell the person.
36:16
Speaker 2: By the way, we're getting divorced and I'm going to
36:18
Speaker 2: an attorney. That's just me personally.
36:20
Speaker 1: Do women or men hire first?
36:22
Speaker 6: Like?
36:23
Speaker 1: What are the stats?
36:24
Speaker 5: They're like, I don't know the specific status women.
36:28
Speaker 2: I've actually read women are the ones that file more
36:31
Speaker 2: than men.
36:31
Speaker 5: I would probably say there's a couple of different things. Yes, Alexi,
36:34
Speaker 5: you one hundred percent right. Women file more than men
36:37
Speaker 5: to the tune of about sixty five seventy percent or so.
36:41
Speaker 5: But the funny part about it is most of those
36:44
Speaker 5: same women have given me signs throughout that the relationship
36:48
Speaker 5: has been over for years. I think a lot tis right.
36:51
Speaker 2: Well, right, okay, So Dennis, let me ask you something
36:54
Speaker 2: does trial separation always equal divorce or do you see
36:58
Speaker 2: like people reconciling.
37:00
Speaker 5: I see people reconciling more frequently midstream of divorce litigation
37:06
Speaker 5: than I do in trial separations. The trial separations I
37:10
Speaker 5: find is one partner knows they want to be divorced,
37:14
Speaker 5: and the only way they're going to get the other
37:16
Speaker 5: side to forgive the expression but play ball with the
37:19
Speaker 5: process to not make it long drawn out, is to say, oh, well,
37:23
Speaker 5: we may get back together again. It's just a trial separation.
37:26
Speaker 5: It's the only way they can sell it to them.
37:27
Speaker 5: In fact, I had a conversation about that just today
37:30
Speaker 5: with one of my associates about a case that we have,
37:32
Speaker 5: and and you know, look, people do what they need
37:35
Speaker 5: to do because every situation is specific, it's its own thing.
37:39
Speaker 5: They do what they need to do to get through it.
37:41
Speaker 5: And Kelly, as you said, it's you know, these are
37:44
Speaker 5: tough processes. There's no perfect path or right answer. You
37:49
Speaker 5: just do the best you can to get through it.
37:51
Speaker 5: You know, you want to try to get out, to
37:53
Speaker 5: come out on the other side with you know, your
37:55
Speaker 5: kids intact. Because I find with ladies that tends to
37:58
Speaker 5: be their focus, like more more than the guys like
38:01
Speaker 5: kids are everything or sure could be, and yourself only
38:06
Speaker 5: always comes second, unfortunately, but yourself too.
38:09
Speaker 1: My dog comes first, so I get it.
38:11
Speaker 5: I have three of my own, so I get it.
38:13
Speaker 1: This is a great place for us to take a pause.
38:15
Speaker 1: So do you guys have any questions about divorce? Are
38:18
Speaker 1: you guys looking for advice now that your relationship or
38:21
Speaker 1: marriage is over? Call us or email us, follow us
38:25
Speaker 1: on socials. All the information will be in the show notes,
38:28
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38:32
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38:36
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