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Why Are Women Giving Birth in Hospital? · UK Column Radio

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, Stuart Fishban dtr ste thank you for joining me
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: again in the trenches.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Father Jeremy. It's nice to be it's nice to be
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: here with you.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: This is for my UK column audience, and so I
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: know that you know the story, but if you don't mind,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to quickly contextualize how I came across
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: you and and it has a significant impact on my
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: personal life. But I suppose towards the beginning of last year,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: my wife and I were sitting down having lunch with
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: a friend of ours and he said, look to my wife,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: you've just fallen pregnant. Have you have you thought about
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: homebirth and more specifically something called hypno birthing, And my
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: wife responded with fear, like that sounds crazy, Like you know,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I don't want to die, and I think going to
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: hospital makes makes more sense. And then a few weeks
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: later we went on a road trip and we got
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: the audiobooks that he recommended and we listened and we
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: were blown away. We couldn't believe that this idea of
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: homebirthing could actually be a legitimate thing, and it could
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: be it could be safe. And so while we were driving,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: my wife was on her phone and she was looking
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: for some podcasts that now could maybe you know, chat
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: about say something about home birth, and she stumbled across
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: yours and we started listening and we couldn't stop, and
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: we just she just went through episode off the episode
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: of the episode, and then she said, you have to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: get him on your podcast. This is phenomenal. Then a
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: few months later she attempted the home birth. There were
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a couple of complications, as you now know, behind the scenes,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: but she had no fear at all, and she said
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: that that was actually not a scary birth whatsoever. And
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: we have a beautiful, healthy boy, as you also know.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So with that in mind, my question is why was
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: she fearful?
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: The first thing I want to say is I want
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: to cry with joy at your story and how Bliss
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and I have my co host, affected your life in
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: a positive way. That's sort of why we do what
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: we do. You know. I'm old now. I practiced for
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: forty years. I was a private physician, twenty five years
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: in the hospital, well, twenty eight years in the hospital
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: and twelve years at home. And my initial training was
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: such that I was trained in the medicalized birth model,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: thinking that pregnancy itself is a high risk condition, and
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: that everything about pregnancy is a potential disaster. And this
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: is the model by which current doctors and a lot
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: of midwives now and certainly nurses are trained in that
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: pregnancy is an illness and needs to be treated, and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: so obviously, if it's an illness, you start to fear it.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Where did this all begin. This all began in the
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: early nineteen twenties in my country when John D. Rockefeller,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: who was famous for being very wealthy and in the
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: petroleum industry, hired a guy named Flexner, and I'm just
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: paraphrasing the story here, obviously for Time to put out
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: a report that basically said that the only best way
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: to take care of people is through modern medicine, which
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: was pharmaceutical based and based in the hospital. And they
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: essentially took over the medical schools and then they vilified
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: midwives and naturopaths and alternative medicine things, and it became
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: a lucrative hospital based practice. And how do you control
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: people best to get them to do that, you scare them.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: You scare them about naturopathy, you scare them about midwiffrey,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: and you scare them about their own bodies that pregnancy
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: itself could go wrong at any time. And what does
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: a woman want more than anything else in the world.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: She wants the safety of her baby. So if you
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: can make a woman think that if she doesn't do
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: what the doctors say, that she might in some way
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: be harming her baby, then you can get people to
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: do pretty much anything you want. And so fear became
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: the tool that was used to take something as natural
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: as conceiving, growing, and birthing a mammalian baby and turning
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: it into a disease. And so that's where we are,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: and we're you know, the granny midwives and older people
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: have known them for a long time, but they've been squashed.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: But if their system was so good, Jeremy, then why
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: isn't it so good? Why did we go in the
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: last fifty sixty years from a c section rate of
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: five percent to a c section rate Now you told
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: me it's closing out eighty percent in your.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Country, yes, in the profit sectory, yes.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in my country it's in the mid thirties, all right,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: So that's six hundred percent increase in my country. Why
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: did we go to more monitoring of babies, more ultrasounds,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: more vaginal exams, more antibiotics, more artificial drugs, more inductions,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: more newborn intensive care unit admissions, every category of things
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: getting worse has happened, and yet the people that are
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: running the system are not concerned about all that. They're
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: just concerned about controlling the system. It really isn't about intent,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: It's about outcomes, and the outcomes that we have in
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: all our countries are crappy. And yet the people that
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: have made it crappy wanted you more stuff to make
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: it more crappier, if that's a word, and fear is
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: the way they do it. If I were to scare you,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: if I were to pull out what they call the
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: dead baby card. By the way, everything that I just
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: told you that they're doing is a violation of every
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: tenet of medical ethics. Medical ethics dictates that given the
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: same information, it's not reasonable to expect two people to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: come to the same conclusion. Medical ethics as a decisionally
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: capable person has the right to determine bodily autonomy, that
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: they have the right to refuse treatment if they choose
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: to do so, that you can't be touched without your permission,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: And yet these kind of assaults go on every day
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: in doctors' offices and hospitals around the world, and nobody
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: says anything.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: It's very interesting because from the time I chatted to
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: last year to now, my whole paradigm is shifted, and
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: it's made me so uncomfortable based on the fact that
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: my whole life I thought something about childbirth that was
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: completely false, and so did my wife, and so do
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: most people in my circles. You know, if I say
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: home birth, they go, are you sure about that?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, you know. Jim Gaffigan is a comedian here
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: in the United States. I don't know if you know
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: him there, and he does a stand up routine about
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: home birth because he's had five kids and they've all
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: been born at home. And one of the things he
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: says is, yeah, he was talking to his friend about Yeah,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: he and his wife are choosing a homebirth, and his
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: friend says, oh, we were thinking about that, but we
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: wanted our baby to live.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Where does it come from? I mean, so, okay, is cultural?
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: It's cultural. I mean, if your mother was told to
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: birth in the hospital and she had a scary event
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: in the hospital, probably cause the term is iatrogenic, probably
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: caused by the treatment that she was giveing. She was
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: induced for no reason, the baby didn't like it. She
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: had emergency C section, and she thinks, thank god it
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: was in the hospital, because what would have happened if
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: they'd been at home. We're not realizing that none of
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: that would have ever happened at home. So she has
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: this experience, and she passes this experience on down to
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: her daughters and her sons for that matter, And so
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: when they grow up and they get married, they know
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: what mom's experience was. They know what grandma's experience was.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: And now we've got four generations of women that had
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: forgotten what mammals know.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So when we were in I said you at
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: the beginning that we went in a roach. We went
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: to the Kruger National Park, which is our major game park.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: And I keep saying this, but it's definitely one of
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: the most beautiful places in the world. And while we
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: were looking at at giraffes and elephants and things, she
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: said to me. My wife said to me, when they
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: give birth, they don't have hospitals. They just go and
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: find a quiet place and give birth. But why do
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: we as humans require seven people around the woman and
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: she must get on her back, and it's lights and
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: it's all sorts of instrumentations. Something is wrong.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you think that, You think that every woman would
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: have that intuition that something is wrong. But it just
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: goes to show you how powerful fear is in driving
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: you away from what you believe is common sensical and
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: what your intuition tells you. When mammals give birth, I
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: know you know this, but maybe your listeners don't know this.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: They go off to a quiet place and they go
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: off by themselves. You know. The other cows don't come
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: around and ask the cow that's in labor how she's doing.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: And they don't restrict her intake. They don't take away
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: her food and water. They don't immobilize her, they don't
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: strap her down to the floor of the barn. You know,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: if the cow wants to walk, the cole walks, if
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: car wants to roll or lie down, the how rolls
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: are lies.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Down doesn't lana back and yeah, and.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: They never lay flat on their back and do that
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: sort of thing. And when they're ready to give birth,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: no one is around, and the baby comes out, it
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: falls into the dirt. It's not a sterile procedure. A
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: matter of fact, it's better that it's not. That's the
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: whole point. Babies immune systems are starting to form in utero,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: but they're you know, but eighty percent of your immune
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: system comes from the bacteria in your gut. If you're
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: colonized with the wrong bacteria, that aren't you know, if
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: you're brought out by a sterile c section taken to
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: a nursery, the bacteria you're being colonized with are not
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: the ones that nature design. And in the wild, no
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: one rushes in to cut the umbilical cord. As a
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: matter of fact, if you watched an elephant or Jeff
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: give birth, what happens? Baby falls on the ground, the
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: cord snaps, Does the baby elephant bleed to death? No,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: of course not. And maybe the fall is actually good
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: for them. Maybe it startles them and wakes them up.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Who knows. But nature has designed a system. If it
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: didn't work, that animal would become extinct. So it works really,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: really well. Now people will say, well, what happens if well, yeah,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: that's there's always going to be an exception and you're
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: always going to have a problem. And if you know,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: some farmers will lose a sheep that's in labor, it'll die.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: So they may help that sheep, they may reach up
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: and pull out that baby because they know what to do. Right.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: But if you look at the hospital system we have now,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: despite all of that medical technology, we're still losing mothers
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: and babies. So it's not there's no perfect system. There's
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: no system that says, you know, if you follow our instructions,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: you'll have a perfect outcome. That the medical model is
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: kind of sold that way, Jeremy. It's sold that, you know,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: if you're in the hospital, you're only thirty feet away
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: from an operating room, but the likelihood of you needing
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: that operating room is increased one hundredfold simply because you're
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: you're in the hospital and you're being treated in an
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: anti mammalian way. You're not allowed to eat, you're not
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: allowed to move, you're constantly interrupted, you have these belts on,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: you're getting vaginal exams which increase your risk of infection,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: and they're uncomfortable. You have to be in a bed.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: By the way, here's a This is just a typical story.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: If you go to a hospital and you go into
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: a labor room, what's the center of the labor room.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: What's in the center the bid, the bed. Okay, anybody
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: who's ever gone to a home birth asked them when
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: they walked into the home birds, did they ever find
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: the mother laying in bed?
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: No, there's candles and this music in the power.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: They're in the shower. Maybe they're on all fours on
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: the bed, but they're certainly not laying on the bed.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: You never see that. But the hospital puts a bed
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: in the center of the room because what do hospitals do.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: They treat sick people, and sick people need to be
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: in bed. And so when you just even the psychology
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: of walking into a labor room and seeing the bed
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: in center tells you what they're thinking. Because home birth
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: and mammals would never would. They don't just go on
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: your bed and lay there. It's prone waiting for somebody
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to do something to them. That's just not how it's done.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: So your wife was right to look at these things
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and then it clicks in her head. Why it doesn't
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: is because it's because of our culture and because of
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: our education that's made it seem like it's a valuable
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: thing to be in the hospital. And by the way,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: the reason it's so valuable, it's not because it's good
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: for the patient. It's good for the system. It makes
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of money. And whether you're in socialized medicine
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: or not, your hospital gets paid just the payer is different.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: In a socialized system, the government pays, but the hospital
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: bills the government for everything it does. So for every
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: C section they do, they get paid more than if
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: they do a vasualblivery. For every baby that goes into
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the newborn intensive care unit, they get paid more than
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: if a baby goes onto mom's chest and they don't
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: get to do any think to that baby. So what
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: is the incentive of people running a hospital who are
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: trying to make a profit to lower their intervention rate.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: There isn't one. It's all backwards. We should start rewarding
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: people and possibles that have a lower sea section rate.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: They should get paid more per delivery. The lowerer ce
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: section rate is they should not go ahead? Sorry, go on,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Oh I could go on forever. You go ahead now?
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, So let's just create some sort of context
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: because whenever you talk about a home birth, the very
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: first response is that it's more dangerous than a hospital birth.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're asking me what I think about that?
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, is it true?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's absolutely not more dangerous. As matter of fact,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the world literature doesn't support that it's more dangerous. It
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: is exactly the opposite. Again, hyperbole and lying is what
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: is what tyrannical people do to get control of you.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: You know, they're they're making they're they're they're making it up. Now,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: it's home birth for everybody, No, of course not. There
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: are certain things that you should not be doing at home.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: But informed decision making is for everybody. It should be
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: everybody's decision to decide where I want to give birth,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: how I want to give birth, and who the hell
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to invite into my birth space. Right when
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: you go to the hospital, you have strangers. That doesn't
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: make a mammal feel comfortable. A mammal needs to feel safe.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: When a mammal is laboring, whether it's your dog, a cat,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: or a deer, or a fireman and a predator approaches,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: or little kids run into the room where there's a
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: forest fire or a brush fire like I just had,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: the mammal is going to stop contracting, it's going to
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: put out adrenaline, and it's going to get up and
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: it's going to run away. That's that's how nature ensures
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the best chance of survival. So when you scare people
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: into saying that it's not safe at home, and that's propaganda,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: it's the safest place you can possibly be for most women,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: because that's how mammal mammalian birth is designed, is to
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: be done basically alone by you know, in a safe place.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: But one of the driving factors is pain. So they go, well,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: I'd rather go to the hospital so they can reduce
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: the pain.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Pain is something that again, if you emphasize it, all right,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: it it it becomes sort of a focus again, you
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: can make people focus on the wrong thing. First of all,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: there's two things about pain. First of all, you know
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I wrote I wrote a blog once when blogs were
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: still a thing called labor is not a toothache. And
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: because a lot of doctors will say, well, you wouldn't
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: get a tooth pulled without novacaine, Why would you have
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: a baby without an epidural? That kind of thinking just
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: tells you how abcouse these people are. They don't understand
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: because if you really understand biology and you understand evolution
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: and whether you believe in creation or not, isn't important
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: here I'm talking about you know, if you believe in evolution,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and bad things tend to evolve a way, and things
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: that are beneficial tend to become more common. That's how
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: it works. That's why some insects look like sticks, right,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: It makes it more likely they're going to survive. So
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: when you have a woman that is in labor, you
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: have to ask yourself why is labor painful? Because it
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: doesn't behoove a mammal in the wild to be moaning
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: or making noise because it's going to attract a predator.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: So mammals have learned to be quiet in the wild,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: but we know that their labor is still painful. So
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: this is a theory can't be proven because no one's
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: going to study it. But maybe labor is painful for
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: a reason because every time you experience discomfort and these again,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: these are short little surges. They last thirty to sixty seconds,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: and then you get a couple minutes of a break,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: and then you do it again. It allows your body
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: to recharge its hormones and recharge its neurotransmitters, recharge its receptors,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: and gives you a little bit of a break but
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: this pain, when you have it, you're secreting things. You're
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: secreting endorphins, which are your body's opiates. You're secreting oxytocin,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: which is making your contractions happen, but it also makes
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: you feel warm and loved and bonded. You're secreting maybe
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: some cortisol because it's stressful. It helps you deal with stress.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: You're secreting adrenaline, You're secreting lots of different hormones. They
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: help you get through that every three minute surge that
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: you feel okay. So if you take that away and
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: you don't feel anything, great, now you don't feel anything.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing. You have a passenger, you have
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: a partner in this whole thing, and nature has designed
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: a system. It's a beautiful symphony that's going on between
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: mother and baby for nine months of passing things back
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and forth. You know, maybe not verbal communication. I mean
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: mom may be singing to her baby, but baby's not
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: singing back. But there is a hormonal communication and biochemical
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: communication and probably electrochemical communication. Things we don't even understand,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: auras and things like that that are going out between
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: mother and baby who are in sink. This beautiful thing
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: is growing inside her body. She's communicating with it, and
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: then suddenly labor starts, whether it's induced or whether it
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: starts on its own, and the baby's world is rocked,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: because for nine months, the baby's been happy as a clam,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: living inside a little ball, floating around, talking to mom,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: doing his thing, And all of a sudden, now what's
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: will world is tightening every three minutes, and maybe as
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: it starts to descend, its butt or its head is
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: starting to get squeak and that's a little uncomfortable, or
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: maybe the water breaks and now it's really getting squeezed
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: and it's having to go through a small tunnel. Right, Well,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: if mom is in communication with that baby by sending
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: that baby in dorphins and oxytocin and maybe some adrenaline
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: cortisol every three minutes, a little waft of it gets
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: to the baby and the baby goes, all right, I'm
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: feeling better because I'm getting I'm feeling oxytocin, I'm feeling loved,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: and I'm getting moms and dorphins. That's you know, that's
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: like using some ventanyl, only it's safer, okay, And baby's
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: getting all these things and it's and it feels like
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: it's comfortable, and I use the term it's aware that
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: mom is there. There's mom. I'm feeling okay, I'm safe.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Now you give the mom an epidural, she no longer
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: feels any pain. The baby is still feeling pain, all right.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe the contractions even spaced out a little bit. So
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: then they start artificial oxytocin like syntosin or potosin or
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: whatever you call it in South Africa or Europe. I
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: think it's sintocin. And so now the contractions might even
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: be closer together than they would have been naturally, and
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: they're strong, and there's no mom to communicate to the
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: baby that it's okay. And so then the baby begins
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to see you begin to get stressed out, and you
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: get to see that on the fetal heart rate tracing,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: and you see the baby's heart rate rising or you
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: start to see decelerations what they call a category two tracing,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: and a category two tracing makes doctors nervous. And so
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: what do doctors do? They say, your baby's not tolerating labor.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I think we should need to do a sea.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Section every time. What's that every time?
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, it's the number one reason for sea sections
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: nowt It used to be a rest of diletation or
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: arrest of descent now or fetal distress. It's not even
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: feel distress anymore because they don't even know what a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: category two tracing means. It just means the doctor's uncomfortable
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: or the nurse is uncomfortable, and they say, let's get
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: this baby out, and they get it, and they do
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a sea section, and the baby comes out with good
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: app guar scores, and then they think they saved the baby,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: when what all they did was they caused this baby
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: to be in an unnatural situation outside of communication with
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: its mother, and interrupting hundreds of thousands of years of
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: evolutionary design and thinking that, you know, we did a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: good thing, and then wanting to force that upon women
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: who choose to try to do it a different way,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: like home birthing. So the point being is that labor
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: is probably painful for a reason, and so don't look
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: at it as pain, look at it as I mean.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: That's what hypno birthing is all about. That's what these
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: other things help you to decide, or gasmic birth to
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: help you navigate down that path and think of it
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: in a different way. And if you think of it
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: as every time you're having that uncomfortable feeling, and again,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: maybe I'm diminishing it a little bit. Maybe it's really
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: it could be really really uncomfortable, but you're doing some
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: good for your baby, and maybe let that sink into
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: your brain and you'll you'll cope. I mean, if, for instance,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: just recently, like I said, I had I was telling
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: you before we started, I had a brush fire that
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: was fifty yards from my house and the smoke was
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: really thick, and if I'd had anybody in the house
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: that I needed to get out, I would have gone
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: right back in and gone and choked on the smoke
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: and maybe get burned my skin to save my pets.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: If I had children, I'm you know, they're all grown
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: up now, my grandchildren were here, I would have done
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: anything I could have to save my children. So that's
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: how mothers feel about their baby. So if they think
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: of it in a different way, if they start thinking
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: of it, is that what this discomfort is doing is
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: helping me help my baby to navigate this process which
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: nature designed, and it's so important for babies to navigate
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: this process. There are fetal reflexes that the baby uses
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: to work it way down the canal, and when they
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: don't have the opportunity to do that because they're ripped
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: out by cesarean section, then those fetal reflexes sometimes don't
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: integrate into into more childhood reflexes, and then babies have
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: issues like ADHD and bed wedding. And we did a
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: whole podcast on yeah, on fetal reflexes. So I think
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: it's all connected. It's all connected, and the medical eye
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: system doesn't understand that because all that matters to them
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: is getting that live baby out.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: But that's the point that's right there. But but stuck
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: to stew It's just about getting the baby out.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jeremy, it is, because if you have a baby,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: a healthy baby, what are you crying about? What are
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: you so sad about? It's just one day in your life.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Get over it. I mean, this is what, this is
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: what I'm I'm not making this stuff up. These are
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: in the letters that people write to me all the
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: time that why why why are you so upset? Your
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: baby's healthy? You're healthy. Yeah, Well you know what, Now
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I got a scarred uterus I got to worry about
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: all my other future babies, I didn't get the experience
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: that I wanted. But to the medicalized birth system, how
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: a woman gives birth doesn't matter to them. But it's
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: one of the most important things in a woman's life.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: A woman will remember the birth of her child till
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: the day she dies. You remember everything about it. She
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: may not even remember her kid's name when you get
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: once she reached a certain point in life, but she
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: will remember every moment of that birth. And then and
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: then doctors will say, well, how you know. It's not
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: important how you gave birth. They don't know anything, these doctors,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: these are the experts supposedly in my field. And I
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: will tell you the word expert has lost all meaning,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: like safe and effective has lost all meaning, or like
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: evidence based has lost all meeting or standard of care,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: as these things have no meaning anymore because the standard
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: of care can be terrible, and who defines what the
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: standard of care is? And evidence based birth is only
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: as good evidence that based birth. Evidence based medicine is
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: only as good as the evidence that's in it. And
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: if you have crappy scientific papers that are only looking
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: for outcomes like neodatal death and neonatal morbidity. Then then
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: the evidence is crappy and they ignore evidence to the contrary.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Like you said earlier, home they're telling you home birth
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: is dangerous. Well, there's plenty of evidence to say that
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: that's not true. So if you're going to be an ethical,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: honest physician and a woman's asking you a question about birthing,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: you should give them all the information and let them decide.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: You should not skew your counseling to funnel them down
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the path you want them to go.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: But that's right. There is another very important point. So
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: thanks to you, my wife and I changed our whole
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: strategy during her pregnancy. So let me give you an examples.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: So after we had listened to your number of or
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: podcast episodes, we went now I think it was about
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: she was about six months pregnant stew and we sat
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: down with the Guyany and he said, look, your baby's
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: head's looking a bit big. I just want to point
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: out that sea section might be might be something to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: think about. Not saying what you must do, but you know,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: think about it. When we left, she said to me,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I want to change guinies because I think that he
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: is going to fear me into a decision that I
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: don't want to do when the time comes. And that's
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: what she did. She changed Guyanese. She said, I can
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: see what he's doing. He's trying to plant these ideas
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: in advance. And now knowing that, she talks to friends
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: of hers who are pregnant or have just had babies.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: And also, yeah, my baby's head was too big. We
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: had to do a sea section. And I'm thinking, how
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: is it possible?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Well maybe they went to the French Bulldog School of medicine.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, but I mean that's what you hear. And then
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: the other problem is hindsight. So no doctor is going
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: to come off to the fact and say, well, you
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: know what, we didn't actually need to do a C section.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: No, they don't. They don't, and.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And now the baby's healthy and done, so we're like, okay,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: so let's just carry on.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the gas lighting and gaslighting is a term that's
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you know, been overused lately. But the gaslighting that goes
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: on by these doctors is is legion, it's it's it's everywhere,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: it's you know again, they will skew their counseling, the
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: funnel you down the path. You know, did you come
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: in for your first visit, you're thirty five years old.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Immediately they tell you you've got a problem because you're a
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: geriatric pregnancy. Right. They plant these seeds of doubt because
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: that makes you easier to manipulate towards the end. And
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: the truth is, and I will challenge any physician to
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: sit on a stage with me for two hours in
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: front of a live audience and say otherwise. They are
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: all very scared of what they're doing, and they've been
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: indoctrinated to fear birth, they've been indoctrinated to fear of
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: being sued. They don't understand the mammalia model, none of it,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: because pretty much everything that I learned in the residency
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: program is not true, whether it comes to breaches or twins.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: But I wanted to just talk before we even go
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: off in a different tangent. I want to talk a
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: little bit about the doctor who never thinks they did
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: an unnecessary cesarean section. These people have to actually believe
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: that seventy to eighty percent of women in your country,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: in that part of your country, cannot deliver a baby vaginally.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: And in order to convince yourself that within a generation
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: or two, women's bodies have massively changed, and with babies,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: heads have massively grown. You have to be a fan
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: of fiction because it's not possible. Doesn't make any sense
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: to think that that's the case, that a woman would
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: grow a baby inside of her that would come out,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: that wouldn't come out. That's like the whole thing about viruses.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Viruses don't want to kill the host. They want the
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: host to be able to spread them someplace else. If
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: women group babies inside of them, that would kill them
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: in labor. That wouldn't be a very smart, you know,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: evolutionary path to follow. So here's the scary thing. I'm
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: not a fan and probably you aren't either of the
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: World Health Organization now, but the World Health Organization has
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: said that when the sea section rate rises toward ten percent,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: there is some benefit to that, but once it goes
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: beyond ten percent, there is no benefit to that. They
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: don't go as far as saying there's detriment, but they
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: say there's no benefit to a sea section rate in
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: a population over ten percent. So let's just say it
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: should be ten percent, and let's just say it's seventy
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: percent in your country. Let's figure this out for a second.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Let me think about this for a second. So sixty
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: percent of women are having sea sections that are probably
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: not beneficial to them, which we would be defined as unnecessary.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: So I don't know how many babies are born in
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: your country every year, but you can do the math
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: and figure that out. But there's thousands and thousands, if
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: not one hundred thousand women every year whoever unnecessary major
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: abdominal surgery, and no one is complaining, No insurance companies
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: complaining they're paying for it, or your government's paying for it. No.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: If there were unnecessary knee surgeries or eye surgeries or
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: gallbladder surgeries, yeah, people would be upset about that, and
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: whoever's paying for that would be would say that would
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: start denying those payments because you're doing unnecessary surgery. Yet
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: nobody says anything about these unnecessary sea sections. But here's
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: the scary thing, Jeremy. If fifty sixty eighty percent of
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: sea sections being done are unnecessary and they are right,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: are I can you know? I could take the time
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: and prove it if I knew your country's stats. But
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: they are unnecessary. But here's the question who's doing them?
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Because as you said, no doctor goes home at night
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: to their spouse and says, hey, honey, guess what I
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: did today? I did two unnecessary sea sections. No, every
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: sea section he does is unnecessary. That seventy eighty percent
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: of them are unnecessary. So the only way to cope
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: with that is something called cognitive dissonance. It has to
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: be cognitive, you know. They have to find a rationale
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: to say that, oh, the World Health Organization is wrong,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: or I'm not doing the unnecessary ones. That guy over there,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: that guy over there, he's doing the unnecessary ones. But
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: what that guy over there saying. He's saying, this guy
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: over here is doing the unnecessary ones, and nobody takes
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: responsibility for it. And one hundreds of thousands of women
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: are being butchered for no reason and being denied the
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: experience of giving birth as nature design, and their babies
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: are being altered for all time because they're not developing
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: the reflexes that they're supposed to have. They're not experiencing
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: what nature had designed. Their microbiome is altered, their hormonal
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: connection is altered, They're bonding and breastfeeding are altered. Mother's
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: postpartum depression rates are higher. All these things are beings
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: a cascade. I mean, after they do a cascade of interventions,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: we have a cascade of problems that occur that no
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: one is addressing or they're trying to address on the
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: far end by Oh, that woman's depressed, let's give her
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: a SSRI medication. How about we don't get her depressed
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: in the first place by letting her deliver vagially. How
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: about we go to what they call the root cause
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: and let's solve the problem. Let's figure out why our
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: outcomes are so bad and do something different. But it's
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: very lucrative for the people running the system. And most
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: of the doctors now are not independent soles anymore. They
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: are just cogs in a machinery. They're paid salaried employees.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Were going to shift. Why do they care?
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: So we ended up with a midwife here at home,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and uh and what my wife said afterwards is that
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: the midwife knows so much more than the.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Guyani midwives do know more about normal birth, that is
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: their expertise. The obiguy ns know more about problems, and
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: sometimes they're really good at it. The problem is is
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: that they see everything as a problem. The American College
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: of obg y N, which is you have you probably
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: have your same organization in South Africa in one of
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: their guidelines, and probably more than one. But when I
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: found specifically and they have, it was just had to
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: do with influenza and pregnancy. But they were talking and
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: the abstract starts out with this sentence, pregnancy itself is
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: a high risk condition. Therefore influenza and pregnancy is potentially
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: more damaging or something to that nature. But the first
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: part of that sentence is pregnancy itself is a high
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: risk condition. If that is the way that modern medicine
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: sees pregnancy, it's a prism they're looking through. Then it
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: gives you a little understanding into the mentality of those
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: that are teaching the next generation of doctors to do
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: this thing. Pregnancy itself is a high risk condition, right,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: If that's how they see it, that's how they treat it,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: and then it makes them nervous and scared, and therefore
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: they project that onto the women and it gets propagated
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: and propagated and propagated. Pregnancy itself is a normal bodily
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: function occasionally goes awry. So does breathing, so does digestion.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: We don't consider breathing or digestion to be a high
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: risk condition unless you're running into a smoke filled house,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: then it might be.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: But but just for clarity, you're not saying that there's
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: no need for the hospital because it is there to
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: serve a purpose.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Right of course, of course, the problem is the financial
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: problem is that if we took women out of the
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: hospital that didn't need to be there, then hospitals wouldn't
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: be able to keep their maternity wards open. True, and
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: we need the maternity wards to be open because they
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: do do miracles there. They do save people's lives there.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: But as the World Health Organization and many other experts
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: who I trust a lot more than them say it,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: maybe it's ten percent, maybe fifteen percent of the time
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: a woman needs medical attention. Some things that they would
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: need absolute medical attention would be if a woman has
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: a percent of previa, that's not something you can be
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: delivering at home without great risk to mother and babies lives.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Some woman has severe pre eclampsia, right, that's something where
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: the baby needs to be delivered because the women could
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: suffer seizures and other metabolic problems or even die from
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Not breach, I.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Mean, that's a common one you often your album My
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Baby Hasn't turned right.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: But breach is not a reason that you have to
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: burthen the hospital. As a matter of fact, breaches a
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: reason to stay out of the hospital simply because nobody
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: in the hospital generally knows what to do, so they
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: will immediately go to a caesarean section for a breach baby,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: even if the breach is beginning to come out of
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: the vagina, the butt or the legs are sticking out
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: of the vagina, they'll panic. They don't know what to do.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a documentary that people can look at
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: called heads Up The Disappearing Art of Breach Delivery. And
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: in that documentary, there's an actress named Marina Bakern and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: she's in the TV series Homeland, and she was in
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: or what's that superhero movie with Ryan Reynolds where he's
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: wearing the red suit. What's that called?
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, dead Pool?
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she said, so people know who she is, and
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: she had a breach baby, and she talks about the
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: fact that when because she had a practitioner in a
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: hospital where they did breach deliveries, when she came into
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the hospital, she said, I came in the hospital, my
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: membranes were ruptured. I'm breached. There's maconium. That would freak
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: out ninety five percent of hospitals in the world. But
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: what she was greeted with was, oh, so you must
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: be with doctor Wu. We'll call him, let's get you
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: settled in blah blah blah, because that was a hospital
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: that's familiar with breach delivery. Most of the other hospitals
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: would be panicked and they couldn't get you under general
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: anesthesia fast enough to get that baby out by cesarean section.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Breach is not an indication, not an indication to be
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: in the hospital. If a hospital has a great service
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: and has great people, they are fine. But hospitals are
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: not going to offer you of asual breach delivery in
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: a safe way of doing it. Reach delivery should be
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: done in upright positioning. Most often, most hospitals don't know
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: how to deliver a baby if you're not on your
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: back with your legs up in stirrups. They don't understand
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: the physiology, they don't understand the mechanisms, they don't know
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: what they're what they're doing, so you're more likely to
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: have a problem if you have a breach delivery in
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the hospital than if you have it at home. Right,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: if there's a real problem, yes, theoretically you could. You know,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: then you could be closer to an operating room where
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: they might be able to do something. But at what cost?
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: At what costs are we sectioning all breaches when really
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: you know you're saving about one in every thousand babies
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: over a vaginal delivery of a head down baby, and
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: that those numbers are from the Royal College of Obgyns
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: green Top Guidelines from twenty seventeen, if people want to
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: look them up. So you're sectioning a thousand women to
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: save one baby. Now, if that's your baby, that makes okay, fine,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: But what are we doing to the other nine hundred
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: and ninety nine women. We're putting them their baby and
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: their future babies at greater risk than we did if
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: we would have let that woman deliver valgually with a
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: breach baby. They don't understand that because they're taught to
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: fear breach. More than ninety eight percent of breaches worldwider
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: delivered by sincerean section. In our practice, I think we
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: had a seven percent sea section rate and seventy five
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: percent of twins worldwide a delivered by sincerean section, and
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: our practice, our sea section rate for twins was eight
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: point seven percent. Sure, what did we do differently? We
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: just trusted nature's design. And I was lucky that I
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: trained in an era where the skills were just considered
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: a very part of normal teaching. Breach and twin skills
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: was normal when I was a resident in in the
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: early nineteen eighties. Now it's not taught anymore. It's rare
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: that a resident goes through a residency program. Uh, you know,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: not even not seeing a breach, let alone even possibly
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: doing a breach. That's so unlikely to happen. And that's
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: that's a shame. That's that should be a shame and
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: a stain on the medical uh uh doctors who are
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: training the future generations of doctors. Because when out of
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: every twenty women who walk into your office who are
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: pregnant will have a breach baby hmm. And so you're
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: an expert in pregnancy and you don't know how to
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: take care of one out of every twenty women that
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: walk into your office. How embarrassing is that? Let alone?
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Just bad?
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: When we walked away from the from the from the OBG,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: I in my wife said to me, did you notice
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: how much he spoke about being sued.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if that, if your doctor talks like that, you
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: did the right thing. The first thing you do is
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: find a new find a new practitioner, and I would
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: recommend that even if you plan to deliver in the
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: hospital with an obstetrician, that you get some of your
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: prenatal care with a midwife. And again, be careful about
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: choosing your midwives because some midwives are becoming very medicalized
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: as well. So it's not just the title that makes
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: the difference, it's how they practice because the title midwife
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: is being co opted by the medical cartel as well.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: But your point, my point was protocol. Yeah, protocol is
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: dominating everything now.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, the medical model works on algorithms, and if you
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: deviate from the algorithm, you're more likely to get sued.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: This is a terrible way to live, it's a terrible
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: way to practice. One of the things I feel for
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: my OBE colleagues. I mean, they have to take a
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: major part of the responsibility because they've let it happen,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: so you can't absolve them of all responsibility. But I
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: feel for them because they live in a world where
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: they're under threat all the time.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, something goes wrong.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: And we know it will, we know it will that
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: always something always will go wrong. And then the idea
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: that your career could end on a bad outcome is
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: a terrible way to live. And I don't think that
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: most obstetricians that are practicing these days knew that when
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: they went into medical school or residency and chose that
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: as a field. I think they really chose it to
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: do good because it's a very joyous form of medicine.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: But how many of your obstetricians actually act like they're
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: feeling joyous. Not very many. They act sort of stressed.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: They're stressed out, and it's a horrible way to live.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And how do I know that, Well, because happy people
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: don't treat people badly. Happy people don't say to people,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I think the baby's head's too big. I think that,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: you know, choosing of asulib is probably a bad idea, or.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Or you've got narrow hips, you got narrow hips.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Or you know, or just even being condescending to them.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, why is it so important for you to
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: have a v agil delivery? Or you know, we all
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: want to we all want to have the birth that
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: we want, but you know, at least we'll have a
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: healthy baby. Happy healthy people don't talk to other people
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: like that. So something has happened psychologically to my profession.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: They've been under a sort of a mass formation where
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: they've given up their individuality to be part of the collective,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: just to keep their head down and collect their paycheck.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: And it's it's a horrible thing. And that's that's why
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I'm always nervous when I hear that hospitals are bringing
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: in midwives or bringing in doulas. Doulas are like non
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: medical birth assistance, because if the hospital's bringing them in,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: that means they're being paid by the hospital. And if
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: you're paid by the hospital, who is your loyalty to?
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Who's your fiduciary duty to? And the answer is it's conflicted. Now,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: when you're a private dula or a private midwife or
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: even a private ob, you can be loyal to the patient.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: You may have to answer to the medical board, but
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: your loyalty is to the patient. But when you work
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: for a hospital system and say, the hospital system says
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: we don't do breach babies here, but you just took
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: a seminar, they found out how easy breach is to do,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: and you want to and the woman why has a
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: breach baby. You can't tell her that because if you
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: tell her how easy it is to do a breach
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: delivery and how safe it really is, you might get fired.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: So you're right there. They are these medical legal concerns,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: these conflicts of interest. They're weigh heavily on the system,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: and the person who suffers from it is the patient.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Can I read you? I've got a very long email,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: so just I'll summarize it, but I want to read
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: an email that I received, and I actually might forward
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: forward this to you because it relates to you.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: It's probably just like my inbox every day.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, But so she says, yeah, with the help
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: of your podcast with doctor stew and doctor Steu's podcast
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: and a class that I took called pain Free Birth
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: in Brackets. She's a dulla who teaches about natural childbirth.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I was able to give birth at home unexpectedly and
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: by myself. I'm from the US, but I'm living in
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: the UAE, where home birth is illegal, and I was
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: planning on giving birth in a hospital with midwives. My
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: contractions started early in the morning exactly on my due date.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: I went about my day blah blah blah. She explains
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: her day, and she says, during a contraction, my waters
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: are broken. Everything ramped up from there. The baby was
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: born thirty minutes later. Nothing I did in those thirty
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: minutes gave me relief. I tried sitting in the tub.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: I was immediately uncomfortable, so I told my husband to
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: run the shower. I stood in the shower, letting the
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: water to fall on my back and I tried my
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: best not to tense my mouth, face or any part
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: of my body, and to just breathe. And she says,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: and then I started crowning. My husband walked away for
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: a moment to try and reach the duela, who was
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: also a trained midwife, and she was on her way.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I pushed once more and the baby came out.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for thank you for reading that story.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, a couple things stand out to me. The
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: fact that home birth is illegal. It's like, yes, yeah,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: that one. That one jumps out of me. I wondered,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: did she get arrested? Every what happened to her? Do
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: we know?
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: I can always email an Oscar Nod.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I'd be curious to see what happened. There's so many
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: stories I could I could share with you. I hear
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: stories all the time. Maybe you do too. Of they
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: call human interest stories. They're on the news at night
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: where a woman delivers on the side of the road
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and maybe a passer buyer helps her have her baby
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: in the back seat, and then they show her. Of course,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: then what they do with her is they take her
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: to the hospital. Right the baby's already out, but centers out,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: why are we going to the hospital. But that's that's
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: what they that's what they do because it's culturally, that's
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: what people think they need to do that. But the
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: story begins earlier than that, when she called her doctor
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: and it's her third baby, and she says, my contractions
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: are right on top of each other, and the doctor says, okay,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: come to the hospital. What the doctor should have said
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: is wow, that's great. Just hang tight, I'll be right over.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Why are you making a woman who's contracting like crazy
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: get in a car and drive someplace. You would never
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: do that again, gets back to the mammalian birth model.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: You would never do that. Your dog's in labor, it's
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: booming labor. You pick your dog up. You put it
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: in the car, you strap it into a car seat,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: and you drive to the local vet station. No, you
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: would never do that. So the idea that we interfere
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: and that when you leave it alone, this is sort
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: of what happens. And it's not always as easy. It
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't always go smoothly clearly. Nothing I'm saying is one
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: hundred percent end. But most births, if you just leave
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: them alone, and if you have the confidence and trust
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: in the right mindset, then birth will progress as nature design.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: And this woman's story is great because I'm sure that
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: had she tried to rush to the hospital, there would
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: have been a panic when she got there because the
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: baby's head would have been coming out, and nobody would
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: have helped her. They would have all been screaming up
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: the chain of command for who's you know, who's going
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: to help her, and nobody would just stopped and been
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: human and just looked at her in the eyes and
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: got her eye contact and said, look at me, you're fine,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Everything's going to be fine, Let's get this baby out. Great.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: They just and and and talk to her like that
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: as opposed to acting panicked. It's almost as it's a
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: virtue signaling you have. The more panicked you are, the
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: more you obviously care. It's it's the opposite.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: But when we when so Win my wife was pregnant,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: we went full hypno birthing classes. And for those who
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: don't know what hypno birthing is, Stuart's it's basically just
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: a way of thinking. It's just changing your mindset, that's
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: all it is. It's not hypnosis or anything.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Woo woo.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: And she was telling us that the whole point of
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: not being stressed or nervous or scared is that those
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: responses are flight responses, and so therefore those will lengthen
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: the labor because because you need to get out of
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: that situation, and so the baby can't come yet, and
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: so and and but but that's what the whole thing
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: is about. Then then that's when the hospitals come in
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: and say, but don't worry, we're there for you, and
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: and so the whole thing becomes inverted.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Well it does pretty much. Everything they do to you
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: when you show up at the hospital is antithetical to
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: the what I decide what I've described as nature's design.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Mm hm, Right, when you interrupt a mammal, all right,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: they put out adrenaline. I said this earlier adrenaline caused
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: the contractions to space apart or even stop. So when
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: you're questioning a woman, you're asking her about how many
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: stairs she has in her house, or you know, what
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: did grandma die from? Or what birth control are you
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: going to be using after you have this baby? Like
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: that matters at this point in time. No, it doesn't matter,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: but it's on the questionnaire and we have to ask
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: the questions in order to move on to page two
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: so we can get you admitted. This again, it's all automated.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: It's all algorithmic. When you go to the hospital, they
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: want to put you on a monitor, They want to
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: have you change into a hospital gown. What does a
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: hospital gown signify that you're a patient, that you're ill?
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Why are you going to It's the only thing we
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: go to the hospital for, do you ar? I mean
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: that is for a normal bodily function. Pretty much, there
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: isn't anything else we go to a hospital for other
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: than that. As a normal bodily function, you have to
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: pee in a they have to draw blood on you.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: They again, like I said, they take your blood pressure,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: They do all these things to you, and then suddenly
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: that you're on the monitor and your contractions are eight
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: minutes apart when they were three minutes apart. And they
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: can't figure that out. But you and I could because
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: we just took a mammal and we interrupted them and
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: we scared them, and suddenly they're contractions space apart. That
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: is basic mammalian physiology. Yet they don't understand that. But
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: now you're there at the hospital and they say, well,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: you're contraction spased out. You're here, you're you know, you're
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: almost forty weeks. Why don't we just rupture your membranes
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: or why don't we just start, you know, augmenting your labor. No, no, no,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not in good labor. I'm going home. Just go home,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: don't you know. That's why hiring a doula and staying home,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: and even if you want a hospital birth, don't show
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: up at the hospital too. You're like ready to push.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: There's far less chance that they can do something to
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: screw it up than if you show up and you're
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: two to three centimeters dilated and you're getting unnecessary valgual
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: exams and they're going to put you in the bed
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: and they're going to put those belts on you, and
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: they're going to interrupt you constantly, and they're going to
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: put blood pressure CUF on your arm that every hour,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: it's going to pump up in the middle of a contraction,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: and they're going to come in and come asking you questions,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: and the lights are going to be on, and you're
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: going to hear noises in the hallway right and you
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: have to ask permission to go to the bathroom because
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: you're plugged into this machine and the nurse has to
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: come out and hook And how undignifying is that everything
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: that they do to you, again is not evidence based.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: It is convenience for the hospital. It makes it easier,
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: or generates revenue, or you know, does things for the
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: hospital's sake. None of that for you. Because when you
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: go to a home birth, as we said earlier, you
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: never find the woman in a bed, You never start
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: an IV automatically draw blood. You may take your blood
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: pressure one time when you show up, and if it's normal,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: you probably won't take it again unless she has some
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: symptoms that tell you it might be reasonable to take
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: a blood pressure. You don't have to do it every
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: thirty minutes or every hour, simply because that's what the
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: protocol at the hospital says. They don't understand that you're
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: interrupting her. Leave her alone. You know, there was a
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: thing that came out a while ago that they wanted
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: to make hospitals more homelike because they were worried about
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: competing with hospital with home birthing. So in the administrator's mind,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: that kind of mind, what do they think that means.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: It means nice hardwood floors and some nice curtains. It
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean changing the policies and leaving the woman alone
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: and letting her get in a tub or a shower
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: if she wants to, and not being monitored all the time.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Doesn't mean any of those things. So stay out of
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: the hospital. If people have watched the Business of Being Born,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you and your wife ever watched that.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: He watched It's what's her name? The present of the
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: show host Ricky.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Lake and Abbey Epstein. There's a scene in there where
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: a mentor of mine. I never got the chance to
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: meet him. He's passed away now named Mars and Wagner,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: very bright guy, and he gives a monologue about how
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: in the fifties they x rayed all these women, they
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: X rayed their pelvis is to see if they were
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: pelvis's were big enough, and they found it caused cancer
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: in the children, so they stopped doing that, and then
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: they gave out the lidamide. Polidamide was a thing that
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: was supposed to be for hyperaemesis, which was too much
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: throwing up and nausea. Caused babies in England mainly to
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: have limb reduction defects where they had, you know, abnormal limbs.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: And then they tried cidotech for inducing labors and women
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: that had previous Assaian sections, and they had a lot
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: of ruptured uteruses and a lot of babies died. So
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: he summarizes the whole little scene by saying, if you
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: want the best birth possible, if you want to, you know,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: have a healthy baby, stay the hell out of the hospital,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: is what he says. And he's right. He's right. If
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: you're a perfectly healthy woman, you should stay the hell
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: out of the hospital, and you should get over your fear,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: because your fear is leading you down a path where
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: you're going to have a seventy percent C section rate
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: in your country.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: But now, okay, so I have to bring this up
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: because I've had this conversational arc many times with different
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: people over the last year and a half or so,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: and this always comes up. But well, look at the data.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: A child mortality went down once childbirth went into the hospital,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: and they have showed the Industrial Revolution stats and all
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Well, if you want to compare it to one hundred
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: years ago, that's true. But one hundred years ago, we
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: didn't know germ theory, we didn't have antibiotics, we didn't
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: have clean water and plumbing and things like we have now. Right,
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: stop that comparison. Compare it to fifty years ago. Compare
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: it to nineteen seventy. The sea section and rate in
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: your country in nineteen seventy was probably about six percent.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: How have the outcomes been since nineteen seventy for your
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: babies and your mothers? And you will find, again, I
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: don't know your country stats, but I know my country stats.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: You will find that the neonatal morbidity and mortality rate
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: has not significantly changed. The rate of cerebral palsy has
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: not diminished, the rate of hypoxic as schemic encephalopathy, which
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: is brain damaged babies, has not diminished. Despite the sea
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: section rate going up six hundred percent in my country,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: despite continuous fetal monitoring, which was supposed to tell us
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: which babies were at risk and therefore we were going
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: to be able to save those babies. Again, these things
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: were all put in place without ever seeing whether they
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: work first. This is like polidamide or like doing X
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: rays on women. These are all what are called stage
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: one thinking we're going to do something without actually testing
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: to see if it's safe. Now we live in a
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: world where we're giving pregnant women six vaccines while they're pregnant.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, my wife was. She was told to get a
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: flu shot while she was pregnant, and she said, no.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, flu detap, just ditheria, tetanus, and pertussis COVID shot.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: And now they want to give you a respiratory sensiticial
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: virus shot, none of which, by the way, none of
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: which have ever been tested for safety in a randomized, controlled,
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: placible control trial in anybody, let alone pregnant women, and
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: none of which have been tested giving them at the
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: same time. Five of these vaccines are recommended at twenty
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: eight weeks. Who does this kind of stuff? Who? Why
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: would you trust anybody? Who tells you to do that,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: who tells you you as a pregnant woman, who tells
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: you not to eat sushi, Yes, but you can get
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: five vaccines while you're pregnant. Don't trust these people. They
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: don't know anything. I was one of them. I was
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: that person who would have told you those things back
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: in the late eight nineteen eighties when I came out
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: of my residency until I was influenced by the Midwiffery
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: model of care and the midwives in my community, and
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: that was an incidental accident. They asked me to take
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: their transfers from home when I first came into practice,
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: and I did it because I wanted to make money.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: I didn't do it because I thought I wanted to
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: help midwives or I wanted to help home birth people.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: I thought homebirth was probably stupid. I don't really remember,
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: but I'm sure that that's how I was trained. So
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I did it because I wanted to make money. I
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: did it for the wrong reason, but it led me
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: down this path. It took along. It took many years
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: to undo the training that I had. But here we are.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: So something you said to me last year is and
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: it's difficult to prove these things. And you hinted at
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: at Nina's conversation, But a baby that goes through the
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: birth canal versus a baby that's a C section could
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: have different outcomes health wise later on, for example, attention
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: issues and and and other and other things that are
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: very difficult to pinpoint. But it's it's it's plausible, isn't it.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, Again, it's not every baby that comes out through
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: the vagina is going to be healthier than every baby
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: that's born by a cesarean section. That's not how statistics work.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: You know, every individual case is different, but overall following
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: nature's design. It's just like it's just like with viruses,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: you're better off catching the virus and getting better than
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: getting a vaccine. You're better off following nature's design. And
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: when you're born vaginally through a through a normal labor
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: process and you colonize with the normal bacteria, getting a
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: good autotransfer usion of your own blood and stem cells
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: with delayed or what called optimal chord clamping, or it's
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: actually no cord clamping. I mean, in the midwifery model,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: we generally don't clamp the cord at all till the
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: placenta is out and in a bowl, and maybe an
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: hour later. Because we don't want to disturb that first hour,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: we leave the baby attached to what it's always been
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: attached to, and then eventually we cut the cord just
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: to get the placenta off the field. But when you
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: do those sorts of things, you don't mess with Mother
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: Nature's design, and you end up with generally healthier kids.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: We know that babies born by c section have a
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: slightly greater risk of childhood asthma. They have a slight
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: big greater risk of diabetes, They have a slightly greater
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: risk of exzema and other autoimmune disorders. We know that
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: for a fact. We know that they that they have
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: a higher rate of non integrating their reflexes. Right, not
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: all babies. Some babies do great. So we can't really
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: tell who's going to do it, but we know that
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Nature's design is the best way to go for most women,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: because nature designed it over eons, and nature isn't stupid.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: You know, there was an obstetrician I think his name
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: is Eryl Norwich and he should be forever ridiculed. He
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: was in a fake debate with a guy named Charles Lockwood,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: and they were talking about whether or not it was
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: okay to induce all women at thirty nine weeks, which
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: would be which two years later would come out as
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: the arrived trial, which you may have heard if you're
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: in your country where they think it's great to meddle
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: with mother nature every time. You know, at thirty nine weeks,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: all babies should be born in thirty nine weeks, because
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: again all that matters is a live baby in the
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: best and that that's again that perfect theory about that.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: But in this debate, which was a fake debate, because
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: the debate usually is between two people that have different
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: points of view, turns out these guys both had the
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: same point of view, and they faked it one pretend
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: to have a different point of view. But by the
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: end they were both in agreement that thirty nine week
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: conduction was a good idea. And this doctor Norwich said
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: something that I still think was one of the stupidest
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: things I've ever said. Unfortunately, the audience laughed and he
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: said that nature is allows the obstetrician, and the audience
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: laughed because they weren't thinking. And I would say, thank god,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Natures allows the obstetrician because obstetricians are doing lousy. Obstetricians
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: aren't doing well. He's so proud of the job that
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: they're doing. And then just look at where our outcomes are. Now,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: look at your country. Look at our chronic illness rate
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: and children. Look at our postpartum depression rate, Look at
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: our C section rate, look at our induction rate. The
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: rate of NICKU admissions in my country in the last
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: fifteen years is double. Now is that because we're doing
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: badly and having bad babies or is that because it's
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: very lucrative to find ways to get babies to go
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: to the niqu I don't know, But either one of
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: them is evil. Does that make sense? The rate of
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: NICKU admissions has doubled. So either we're doing something wrong
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: with all this mighty medicine because it's not doubling because
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: one percent of babies are being born at home. That
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: math doesn't fan out. It's doubling because we're screwing up
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: in the hospital. Or we're not screwing up in the hospital,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: but the hospital, in order to make money, is finding
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: new policies and new ways to mandate that that this baby,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: because it was born to this mother, has to be
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: observed in the nick you for a little while, because
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: nick you is big money for hospitals. You know.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: How our ib g y in a as if it's
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: as if I had an year role my wife's ob
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: g y in shall I say it's yours?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: Right, your mayor.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: He made a very dark statement, and he wasn't trying
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: to be cynical or anything, but he it was just
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: very doc He said, you know, I think in about
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: one hundred years time there will be no natural births.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: I think I've heard that from Brazilian doctors as well.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: I think that that I think they I think he's wrong.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: I think the pendulum has swung about as far as
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: it's going to swing. And the reason I feel that
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: way is because what the medical cartel is doing now
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: is so desperate. It's very typical at the you know,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: at the end of the life of something that they
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: cling to their model and push back even harder. And
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: there are states now like I just spoke with somebody
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: in Norway yesterday. I did a podcast in Norway, and
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: they're trying to ban free birth in Norway. The medicalized
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: birth model is lobbying the politicians in Oslo to make
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: free birth illegal because is on the rise.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: Free thing is just basically giving birth without any body
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: around you.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, without any any medical professional, usually not even your partner,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: but yeah, but just you at home. So, but free
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: birth is on the rise in Norway. So you and
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: I would ask, because we're inquisitive, we would ask the question, well, hmm,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: why is freebirth on the rise? And if you answer
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: the if you ask the women who are doing free birth,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: they say, because we don't want to go to the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: hospital because the hospitals suck. They don't say it that way,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: but I'm paraphrasing there. So what do the hospitals do
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: with that information? Well, instead of saying, God, we suck,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: we should try to fix what's happening. No, they try
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: to quash people from having a choice of birthing outside
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: of the hospital. And they'll do it, Jeremy, in the
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: name of safety. It's not safe to have a free birth.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: But I don't know that they know what they're talking
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: about and how they define safety, because it's clearly not
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: safe to go to a hospital that has say forty
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: or fifty percent c section, Right, it's not safe for mom,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: it's not safe for baby, and it's not safe for
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: mom's future babies to have that kind of thing in Norway.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: So this is the kind of tyranny that's going on.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Instead of them looking in the mirror at themselves and saying,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: you know, we're forcing women to choose something that we
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: think is dangerous, they don't, but we think it's dangerous.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe we ought to look at ourselves. Why are women
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: choosing something that we think is dangerous? What are we
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: doing that's causing that? But no, they don't have any
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: introspection like that. They immediately wanted to just use their
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: the mighty fists to hammer and make it illegal for
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: these women to choose to birth at home.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: We were talking about our circle of friends who've had babies,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: and we got up to the number ten before we
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: reached first natural birth.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's frightening to me because we are changing the species.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: We're changing the species. There is such a thing as epigenetics,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: and will are young females who are not exposed to
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: mom's oxytocin and labor who are not born vaginally, will
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: they in the future have more difficult times having vaginal births.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: Michelle o'donte, who's in his eighties now, very bright gentleman.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: Some of you know him because he was also in
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: the business of being born. He's the Frenchman who they
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: used subtitles on because his accent is so thick. He
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: believes that by the pre labor cesarean section the center
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: in section that's scheduled electively before labor starts. Those female
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: fetuses are never and males too, in their brain, but
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: they're never exposed to mom's oxytocin. They're never exposed to
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: this love hormone, this bonding hormone, and that maybe that
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: that they're a little uteruses in the fetus will not
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: develop oxytocin receptors to the same extent, and then they'll
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: have more trouble contracting when they grow up and they
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: try to have a baby. There's also some question of
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: whether or not you're you know, the rates of autism
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: and and you know autism autism spectral disorders where the
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: failure to connect, the failure to make eye contact, the
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: failure do you think may have to do with how
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: we give birth as well? There's lots of so many
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: other environmental factors that may cause autism, but you don't
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: see autism in people born vaginally who haven't been vaccinated,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: who aren't eating processed foods. You just don't you know,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: you don't see that. It's extremely rare in our country.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: Here we have what's called the Amish population. There are
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: people that lived by a traditional way of life.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: They're ahead of the curve.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: They are ahead of the curve. They eat healthy food,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: they don't use modern medicine, they don't take medications, they
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: don't get vaccinated, and for the most part, and the
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: kids play in the dirt, like your little baby was
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: crawling around in the grass and getting a rash. It's
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: great for them, makes them stronger. You don't see these
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: sorts of diseases in that people. And then you have
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: people like authors like Andy Wakefield and Paul Thomas and
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: now my friend Joe worsh We're putting out books that
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: basically say that the unvaccinated kids are healthier in every
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: aspect than the vaccinated kids. And I would argue that
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: baby's born vaginally as a trend, not always, but as
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: a trend, are going to be healthier than babies born
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: by cesarean section. Can I prove that? No, I can't
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: necessarily prove that, But because no one's really studying to
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: look at it. The funding for studies in my country
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: doesn't go to people looking to undermine the ideology or
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: the or the way things are done because they don't
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: want to know. So research and funding for research is
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: corrupted completely too by the same big medical cartel that
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: is profiting greatly off of the lousy outcomes we have
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: in upstaterrics.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: I'm just looking at looking at the time, and.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: I could talk. We looked at it. I can't wait
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: to come to South Africa and hang out. No, this
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: just hang out with you.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: No, listen this this. I can talk for hours on
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: this because this isn't just a conversation that's academics to you.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: This this literally affected my life and my wife's life,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: and the life of my child that came into the world.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: It's very significant, more than anything else just about and
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: I've got a very very healthy child, and it just
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: blows my mind that if I think about the kids
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: in baby class that are his age, that are sick
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: and they've still got mocks on the arms from from
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: the from the vaccines, and they're constantly going in and
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: out of clinics because they're getting sick. And my little
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: boy has not been sick, and he's healthy, and it's
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: just it's just it seems like such a no brainer.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: Right, And and those parents will be fearful of your
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: unvaccinated kid. Yes, yeah, their kids are vaccinated and that's
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: supposed to protect them from the diseases that your kid
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: might catch. Yes, which will make your kids stronger. But
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: if the vaccine works so well, then why are they
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: fearful of your kid? But I do have to have
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: the question, Jeremy, why is your eight month old baby
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: in class already?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: No, it's no, it's no, no, no, it's just it's
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: just a group of moms.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, you said class, And it's like, wait a minute,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: I didn't know they had classes for babies.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, And once a month it's a genius. Yes,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: he's the head boy. And then once once a month
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: it's it's a dad's tune to.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: Go to to go to the class. Oh, okay, yeah,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: it's baby. Wait wait until they get it to be
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: like one and a half and two and you take
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: them to the playground and they're playing with running around,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: and they're running through the sprinklers and running down the slides,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: and some like my granddaughter is just about to turn two,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: and I just she's in Louisiana, and I just I
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: get to see her. I go down there like several
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: times a year, and I just totally in love. You know,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: that's beauty of having children because you get grandchildren eventually,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: do you hope?
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: Anyway? All right, Dr ste How can I follow your work?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: Well, everything is Birthing Instincts. So my website is Birthing
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Instincts dot com and my podcast is Burling and Stinct's Podcasts.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: We have a Patreon group. We're over a thousand people
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: now in our group. We have different tiers, but every
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: month we hold a peer review for birth workers. We
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: hold a Q and a once a month, Bliss holds
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: of what it's called a Village Prenatal where people can come.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: Oh you've had.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Bliss, Kim Kim Yeah?
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: Oh no not Kim, No, I said Bliss.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, sorry, Oh you said you thought?
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: I said, Kim Biss, Yes, no, no, Bliss is my
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: co host on my podcast.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: Sorry.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: Kim Biss is amazing. Yeah, she's amazing, sad because she's
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: finding all these things with menstrual periods and miscarriages and
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: all that other stuff that she's finding. Yes, but no,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: but that's how they find me. If you wanted to
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: join our Patreon group, we'd love to have you. It's
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: you know, it's behind a paywall, so we can say
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: anything we want. And there are different tiers. As I said,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: there are different tiers, and if the higher tiers you
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: get to come and you get time with me and bliss,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: uh that sort of thing. I'm missing something, but people
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: will can find it. Everything's on my website. All the
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: links to everything that I do is on my Oh
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: I've I've written a book called Fearless Pregnancy. It's right here,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: but it's old.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: You have to send that to me.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's old. The last issue came out in twenty ten.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: Some of us and I wrote it, so I was
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: wrote it before I was doing home birthing. I wrote
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: it when I was working as a collaborative doctor with
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: a midwife, and some of the stuff is still very relevant.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: I like to read it because I think how differently
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: I am now fifteen years later. Yes, and of course
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: the genetics chapter is completely obsolete because this was before
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: the advent of like a non invasive prenatal screening, the
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: blood test type stuff. But it's still you know something
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: that I love and I've got I've written four papers,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: one on home birthing, one on breach home birthing, one
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: on twin home birthing, and then a case report about
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: twins with entangled heads a breach first twins, that's everyone's
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: biggest fear. And then why doctors won't allow women to
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: have a vaginal delivery of twin as breach. But that
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: also is again misguided to say the least, it's very rare.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: The literature doesn't support that. But there's this picture that
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: everybody sees and that scares the bejeebers out of everybody.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: And I had it happened to me once and I
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: was able to just manage it because of my skill
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: as being a breached practitioner and knowing with through hands
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: on experience what you can do when you have a
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: situation where something is stuck, and just simply the answer
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: is you just reduce station. You push things back up
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: until because the pelvis is shaped like this, and if
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: you push things back up, you've got more room to
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: move things around. But what will happen in a panic
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: in a hospital setting with somebody who doesn't know anything,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: is they'll start pulling on that baby, and then that's
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: going to just lead to a really bad outcome because
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: they don't do this training anymore. Sorry.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: No, And I was going to say, I will echo
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: listening to your podcast because your podcast is what played
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: a major major role in ow in the changing direction
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: that we had. So I would strongly recommend listening to
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: your podcast. On that note, Doctor Stu.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: One more thing I forgot. I do teach. I do
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: teach two day seminars on breaching twin skills, and again
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: you can find that on the website. This is my
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: passion right now. I'm sort of done with clinical work
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: because I I don't want to really be on call anymore.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: I did it for forty years. It was hard, but
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: I travel around the world and I would love to
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: come to South Africa. Yes, and I would love to
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: be able to teach a class where it's two days.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: We talk about twins and breaches and why things are
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: the way they are, and then we spend hours on
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: Sophie and her mom simulators learning the skills of breach
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: and twin delivery. So I'm sorry to interrupt your you know,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: let's go ahead do it again.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: Good, Okay, Well, let's do the utro again. Doctor Stu,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: thank you for joining me in the changes.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: Welcome Jeremy, it's been a pleasure.