Latest / Leadership, Simply Smarter / Leadership, Simply Smarter Episode 3: The Professional Path Through Grief with Cassie Springer Ayeni

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Leadership, Simply Smarter Episode 3: The Professional Path Through Grief with Cassie Springer Ayeni · Leadership, Simply Smarter

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice or solicitation to provide legal services.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: The information in this podcast is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute a lawyer-client relationship.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: The views and opinions expressed on the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Today's guest is someone who understands that real leadership doesn't stop at the courtroom door.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: It extends into the community that you build around.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: Cassie Springer Iani is the president of Springer Iani, a professional law corporation, where she fights for people navigating disability benefit claims under EROSA.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Very complicated work.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: But alongside that work, Cassie has become a powerful force for women in the legal profession.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: She co-chairs the ABA Labor and Employment Sections Women's Affinity Group with me, which I'm happy to say.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: And she co-founded the Women Employees Benefits Attorneys Affinity Group.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: And she also serves as a liaison to the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: She's a super lawyer's top 100 lawyer in Northern California and a top 50 women attorney year after year.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: But what makes Cassie truly remarkable is her conviction that lifting other women up is not a side project.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of the mission.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Cassie, welcome to Leadership Simply Smarter.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Let's first talk a little bit about our shared journey.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think our mission is together as co-chairs of our WAG?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uplifting women, encouraging women to find a place within the American Bar Association and community.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I really love it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the longer I've done this, I've been in practice for 24 years now.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I realize that finding that community with people like you and the people in our group helps alleviate some of the stresses and burnout that are inherent to our profession.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I thoroughly enjoy it.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it benefits all of us as women to find people who we can talk to.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've read studies that talk about women, especially sort of in um, you know, 30s, 40s, 50s, that they desperately need to have the support and connection with other women to really thrive and succeed.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we do that in spades.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: At each of the ABA's labor and employment conferences, we try to provide, you know, some type of self-care initiative.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: So why don't you talk about what we did the last time, which was really well received?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: The last time was so fun.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: That was in Denver for our annual ABA labor and employment law section conference.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a woman come in who is dubbed the kindness concierge, and she's based in Denver, and she wanted to create these moments of kindness and activities of kindness for our group.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we had our breakfast so we could, you know, break bread together, but then she had stations around the room.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: One of them was leaving words of affirmation for yourself on a mirror where you could talk about things you're good at, and then other people and see things you're good at.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And one was uh, well, there were three tables really, because there were so many gifts.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody got to curate a box of gifts for themselves, you know, blanket, a uh a mug, uh, you know, just perfume, you know, little things that can uplift you, tea satchels uplift you and bring you a little bit of joy and comfort while you're traveling um and away from family, or just taking care of yourself while you are traveling and away from family, which is bad to be able to self-care too.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just a lovely event and we all got to talk together.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And she left little kindness notes on the tables too, which I've shared with my kids and kind of continue that tradition and writing my own notes for my for my kids for them to find when they need just a moment of looking at it.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was really putting it in perspective.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: We managed to get over 50 women attorneys to show up at 7 a.m., you know, during conference where people are dining and whining and you know, having fun after hours, and they all show up, you know, ready to share.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just a really lovely experience.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: And Cassie and I have gotten really close as a result of that.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, it's part of the ABA's DEI efforts, you know, really to provide spaces.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: They have affinity groups for others as well, you know, lesbian and gay and persons of color, and anybody's welcome to these, but most of the time we we get women.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Although in New York, I did get asked by a couple of the guys.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: We were making our own lotions and sugar scrubs, you know, to take home with us.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: And a couple of the guys wanted to come in.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, come writing.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: This is open, it's open to allies, you know.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so it was really nice.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I I told Cassie uh over a year later, I got a note from someone on LinkedIn just out of the blue saying how much they uh recalled spending time with us at that event and and how much that meant to them.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, wow.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we have kind of a return of the same people year after year at that 7 a.m.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: hour who look forward to our event and find it to be one of the highlights of this huge, well-organized, you know, packed conference.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: But our little 7 a.m.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: event is a highlight.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I love that so much to find that moment of connection and it was wonderful that Cassie and I probably wouldn't have met otherwise, other than doing this, because we're in very different practice areas and we're on two different coasts, your West Coast, I'm East Coast, but we've really forged a wonderful connection and we're very much like-minded about supporting women, uplifting women, and it's you know, both of us have that at a core value.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been great.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: As we got to know each other, you know, we've shared some of our life experiences, and we're gonna talk just a bit about one thing that we had in common, and you know, not to get be too heavy, but you know, this is real life, and especially after the pandemic, everybody talked about bringing your whole self to work.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so for Cassie and I, this shared experience that we had really is part of our life and part of our leadership journey.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: So we want to talk about it a little bit, um, not to bring everybody down, but you know, to tell others who are suffering in silence through any type of difficulty that there are others who are there to support you and you're not alone.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, Cassie, you want to start us off with?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's one of the oddities, I think, of our culture is that there is a shroud of silence around something that can affect so many people in so many different ways.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in our particular case, it's loss of a child.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a mom of five, and one of my children, one of my firstborn children, she was an identical twin named Ella Rose, and she's a twin with my surviving twin, Kate, who's now 17 and headed off to college.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: But Ella Rose only lived 17 days.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: She died of an infection and the NICU that only affects premature babies, and it was life-altering and tragic, and something that was incredibly difficult to come back from, you know.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: It just, I feel like in my life there's a pre-Cassie, the one before losing a child, and there's everything after.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I just, you know, it's totally changed who I am as a person.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad that you're having this form because I think a lot of people have suffered loss, maybe not loss of a child, but it could be loss of someone close in your life.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard to know how to go on and maintain a semblance of normalcy, and yet this shared experience of loss and suffering is humanity.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we all have that as human beings, and so being able to talk about it openly, I think, is is really profound.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly, this is the first time I've spoken very publicly about my loss.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I lost my firstborn son, Evan, Evan Michael Kelly, in 2017 to a tragic accident.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And um he was 24 years old at the time.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, just like you, I have uh a pre-vanessa and a post-vanessa.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I'm still struggling with the post-vanessa.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's the one thing that I have found is that there's not a timetable for grief.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and maybe I've gone over the part of it where I really couldn't get out of bed on most days to being able to function, but it's there all the time.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I got a tattoo last year uh on my forearm, which is a Celtic mother's symbol.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know the Celtic rings, but it's shaped like a mother and a child sitting in her lap.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I did that because I felt like I wanted something demonstrable to show that I'm forever changed by this event in my life.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got one too about two years after she passed.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Cassie and I know we both got grief tattoos.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I've known since I was young that I wanted to become a mom and a lawyer, but I knew I wanted to become a mom.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a hard time.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: This was my first marriage.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've since remarried, and I had a hard time uh pregnant.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually had IVF and can see on the first try these identical twins.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't know they were identical because two eggs were implanted and I got pregnant with two embryos.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: But after they, when they were born, first of all, when I was pregnant with them, they would sync up their hearts, Kate and Ella, and that I was admitted for preterm labor at 25 weeks.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was dilated to three centimeters.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I stayed in the hospital for the rest of the pregnancy, which was another six weeks.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I was for six weeks in the hospital, and I would be monitored daily with these heart monitors to make sure the twins were doing all right.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one of the nurses saying to me, because they were in different sacks too, and the nurse was like, It's so weird that their hearts sink up like that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Usually only identical twins seek up their hearts.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Well, they're not identical.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had two embryos implanted, you know.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And but then when they were born, they looked exactly alike.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And their hearts weren't sinking because they were in different cribs.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: They call them isolettes in the NICU.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: But then after a week, they were both doing so well that they were put in the same crib and their hearts started sinking up again.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always had this like question like, how I even remember thinking when they were born, when I bring them home, I'm gonna have to like paint one girl's nails red and the other purple.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I know who's who because they looked so much alike.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ella was a little bit smaller than Kate, but other than that, I mean I and it was just like you know, a four-ounce difference.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was nothing.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um it was yeah, and they were small, but by managing, I mean, I just I don't know how I did it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was on bed rest in the hospital on continuous 24-7 magnesium intravenously to stop contractions for six weeks.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I had some scares where they thought I was gonna deliver.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: When I was first admitted, the doctor said that there was a um most people deliver within a week of being admitted, and there was an 80% chance that one or both of them would not survive because I was 25 weeks pregnant.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just, you know, I was willing to do absolutely anything to stay pregnant.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I don't know how I did, but I did.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to most people don't stay pregnant when they're three seminars dilated.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I actually held the record for my hospital for the longest three-term delivery.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually at 31 weeks and one day, my water actually broke, and at that point, there's no going back, and so I delivered, and they were both healthy.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Kate did not need any oxygen help.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: She was breathing on her own from the start, no complications.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: She was under four pounds, and so was Ella, but they were just really healthy for 31-week twins.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Ella needed a little bit of oxygen, so I couldn't hold her at first.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't hold her for the first two days.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I could hold Kate right away, but Ella, I needed to wait a couple of days, and I was pumping and you know, doing all the things, help getting them the breast milk.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've been told, and it's true, that breast milk helps premature babies, especially.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to do absolutely everything I could.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And after two days, I got to hold Ella, and I will never forget that moment.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I held her on my chest and she opened her eyes and looked straight up at me.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I could still feel, you know, the weight of her and see her blue eyes as she looked up at me.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just a really special moment.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then they both got better.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that the nurse said their feeder growers.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: That meant all they had to do to leave the NICU was feed and grow.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And once they hit 36 weeks gestation, which is full term, they would probably get discharged.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we were trucking along and doing great.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Elle was off oxygen.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they let Kate and Ellis share that again.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's when they started sinking up their hearts.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it was it was really great.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I got uh plenty of pictures.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I got to hold them, I got to breastfeed both of them at the same time and kind of imagine that was gonna be my life.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like one attached took a little nap together, me holding them in the NICU, you know, because they didn't have a lot of, they had their leads on, but they they were doing great.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then something I didn't know that can happen happened to Ella, and it only happens to premature babies, which is an infection of the intestines called necrotizing intercolitis, came viciously and unexpectedly.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody expected it.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the evening that she she would just had a bath.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: We gave our and Kate baths in the NICU, and then uh I went home to sleep for the night.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I got a call in the middle of the night that her intestines were not reacting well to bacteria, which is what necrotizing entercolitis is, it's a deadening and infection of the intestines.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, went straight to the hospital and got the news and monitored her all day, and she was getting worse and worse over the day, and then ultimately her bowel perforated, which required surgery, and she got surgery that night when she was 14 days old, and they had to take out it was really bad.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: 80% of her gut had already died that quickly within a day.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they removed it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was really horrible.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: They removed it, and there was no, you know, they brought her back up.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I saw her open her eyes on the way down to surgery.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was there with her.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was the last time I saw her open her eyes, and then when she came back, they fought so hard to keep her alive after the surgery, you know, like just non-stop IVs and medications to just keep her alive.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next morning, Saturday morning, I was alone and it was just the worst moment of my life where the doctor said she this is not compatible with life, and you have to make a decision.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: You have to sorry, I know this is gonna be hard, but it is it's still a seven days later, as you know, you know, it never goes away as continuous.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I would need to take her off of life support, that that was the humane thing to do, and so uh I sat with that and we talked with, of course, you know, got other opinions and got her baptized, and then on Monday morning made the decision, and on Monday afternoon took her off life support.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this heart rate thing.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when she came off life support, I was in a room with a nurse and Kate, and um they took her off of the life support, and I was holding her and singing to her and showing her the world outside of the hospital window that she would I knew she wouldn't see.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then she took her last breath and Kate's monitors started beeping.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Kate stopped breathing when Ella took her last breath.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So because their hearts, you know, they're together.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the nurse was there, so she jiggled Kate and Kate, you know, took a breath.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's premies often forget to breathe.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it was just here and it was their hearts had been sinking up, and then you know to have her experience that at the same time.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's just yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it just speaks to me about how their connectedness, and you know, it's it's just amazing to me.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then Ella passed, and then I don't know if you experienced the same thing, but like for the next two weeks I have so few memories because my brain it just I remember doing everything possible to get Kate home.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I I remember.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a few flashes, but I have I have almost no recollection of things for the next two weeks after I remember all the details leading up to her death.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then my brain me from that intense grief.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think the two weeks after that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what happened.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: Your brain sometimes shields you from from very painful things, you know.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um for me, it was very unexpected.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: I had gotten up super early from my house to drive to Philadelphia, which was about two and a half hours from my house, because I was speaking in the morning at like 8:30 a.m.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um at a CLE and unemployment agreements.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, one of our ABA friends was the co-speaker.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: I had turned off my phone because I didn't want my phone going off when I was speaking and everything.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then when I was done speaking, I still had like an afternoon session, but there was a good break of time during the day.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I went and had lunch with a couple of the other speakers, and I put my phone on, and that's when I saw all of the texts from my youngest son, Gregory.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: It was just blowing up, and he left me a voicemail, and it was, you know, Evan is dead.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, in my mind, I thought I heard him say Evan's dead, because he he took my car.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Gregory had just gotten a new car, and Evan's car was kind of a junky one.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And um I thought that's what it was, and I thought I was going to be calling and listening to some squabble between two brothers, and there was a a bit of an age difference, like seven-year age gap between Gregory and his older brother, and that wasn't what it was at all.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Evan had been battling addiction for four years, and I thought we were home free because the night before we had actually um had his last um session and he was being released, and then unfortunately he, you know, they said it's sometimes very common that when people get released from treatment that they do one last high because it's like their send-off.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, what Evan was using was mixed with fentanyl, and so the poor guy didn't have a chance at all.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: So when I was giving my speech, Gregory was home, and then Gregory went downstairs in the man cave.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: They had a man cave, and he went down and he found his brother, and it was just too late for everything.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then he called me, and then I had to drive home.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't even know how I drove home from Philly.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: I remember I couldn't find my ticket at the garage, so paid the highest thing.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember searching through this garage over and over and over looking for my car.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't really, I don't really remember very much at all getting home.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, and then I got home and and they, you know, they they were taking him and my other son, uh, Brendan Haig came up with his dad, and uh the three of us were there, and I I just don't remember a lot after that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't, it was just so shocking.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and and it is something you don't get over.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about how, you know, your journey, what it looked like when you try to get back into work.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, for me when this happened, you know, I had just joined Clark Hill maybe the uh about a year before.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: It was almost one full year, and I had been practicing law for a long time.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I had my own clients, I was climbing the partnership ladder and all that stuff.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: I had had my own firm for years, and I had decided now that the kids were all older, I was going to go back to big law, and so this was my new journey.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: It was a bit of a step up for the career to get back into big law, and so I had a heavy plate at that time.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, how about you?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: I did too.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I actually had just opened my law firm.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I had just gone out on my own, left a law firm and opened.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I was pregnant when I opened my law firm.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a partner at the time, and you know, thank goodness I did because I don't know what what would I have done.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was in the hospital for six weeks, and even taking a phone call would cause contractions, which I knew because I was constantly monitored.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I couldn't even work for the six weeks I was in the hospital.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, and then having babies in the NICU and then losing a child, it was just a triple whammy, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And our firm was fledgling, and so there wasn't that much work, but it was still imperative that I could return to work.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean I had made this commitment to myself, to my partner, to the clients who had come with us and new ones we were finding to do work.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't know, Vanessa, by brute force, by brute force, I returned to work by obligation.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, I feel like that's that was helpful because it was something to get me out of bed.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Besides Kate, who was also my other reason for getting out of bed, and she was amazing.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, how like knowing somebody needed me.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how people who've lost a child and don't, you know, like it's so like I had somebody else who required me, you know.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't her job to take care of me in that way, but she did, you know, like I could get out of bed because I needed to nurse my my daughter who I loved, you know.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: But my firm I loved also, I wanted it to be successful.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually um Ella died on June 30th of 2008, and in September of that year, I argued a Ninth Circuit case.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I had yeah, and it was on a case which I had not been previously involved, but um the attorney on it was a colleague, and he was traveling when uh the oral argument had been scheduled, and I had some you know expertise and experience with Ninth Circuit arguments before, so he called me and asked me to take over the briefing.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: There was supplementary briefing and oral argument, and so I actually got up to speed on this case and argued it within you know a month that I don't know how you did.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: The amount of concentration and you know commitment to doing that is just huge, right?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it was like because I had to, I don't think that that's the healthiest way necessarily, but I was also having a hard time finding a a good therapist.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: My health provider was really really terrible about you know getting me connected with somebody with expertise who had good availability, and so I had gone at that point for like 10 weeks without therapy, which is like incredible.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I finally found a good one and paid out of pocket and got myself just to somebody who had expertise in grief, and she was really helpful.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um I did what I had to do, and part of that was of that survival was making sure my firm survived.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I've now been self-employed for 18 years, so I guess it worked, but like talk about jumping into the deep end of the I I feel like as women, so often we do that.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: We just, you know, sort of push ourselves to the brink, yeah um, because we have to.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And in addition to shouldering, you know, work responsibilities, you had a newborn, you know, it must have been incredibly hard to go home from the hospital with one baby and not two.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, I always think about this like uh unspoken connection that twins have with each other.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, like I I would worry, like yeah, I'm sure she felt something, you know, in that in these moments, and that I would have been worried about that.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, just everything.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I still worry about it with her.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we talk about Ella, but yeah, it's she's everybody's affected.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and it's sometimes like it because I was so heavy in my grief, sometimes I forgot how difficult it was for my two boys to survive the loss of their older brother.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Brendan had said, you know, and he and Evan were very close.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: They were only 16 months apart.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and Gregory he was seven years younger, but so close to Evan.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, when he was a baby, Evan used to get him up, change his diaper, give him a bottle, watch cartoons with him.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: And even, you know, when this was going on, he was home with him.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: And when he'd come home from high school, he'd have a little snack for him, he'd be waiting at the bus because not that Gregory needed a chaperone, but he was just excited to see his little brother and you know, figure out what was going on.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it was wonderful to have Evan there because you know, he taught Gregory how to drive in the snow, and I'm a big wimp, so I couldn't do that.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so they had these bonds, and you know, I forgot how much uh, you know, grief would impact them and uh still does, you know.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: When my youngest son turned 24, he's like, I'm now the age, you know, Evan was when he passed.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then when he turned 25, he's like, I can't believe I'm older than Evan was because he was always my big brother.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: So it was weird to see him that way.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: So so for me, I I don't remember a whole lot when I went back to work.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I remember feeling it was good to be there, but I kept my door closed because I couldn't have anybody say anything to me while I was at work about my loss because I would lose it.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to be like, this is work mode.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I would keep my door closed, I would muscle through and get my work done.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: And at least that's what I tried to do.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: It certainly slipped out a whole bunch of times.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like we were planning a lunch in for our office at Christmas, and I like lost it in the middle of the meeting.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: And this one woman who was older than me said, you know, of course you don't feel like talking about Christmas lunches.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, your whole world is upside down.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, why don't you just go home and like you could sit out to Christmas lunch, you know, it's not that important.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember feeling that that was good, but I absolutely couldn't, I couldn't tolerate mixing those.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: It was like I it took all my strength just to show up at work.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I couldn't, you know, there was a period of time where I, and this was pre-COVID, pre-people working from home, but you know, I said, I need to work from home because I'm not sleeping.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: It I would be driving home from work and not realize why did I end up on this road?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't the way home.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I wouldn't remember getting on the road.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, this really isn't safe to be driving if you're, you know, if you're not cognizant of which road you're on, that's not a good sign.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: So they were really good to me and let me, you know, work from home when I needed to because I had a very heavy workload.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: I really did.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember in the beginning, some some people covered it, but I had clients that were my clients for years and it wasn't gonna, you know, they were gonna need me at some point.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I couldn't really take that time.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know if that would have been the best thing either.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: So just like you said, I don't know if it was the best thing to just jump in, but I don't know if staying home would have been worse, though.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's there's no roadmap for grief or loss of a child or loss of anyone, just have to wing it and do what you can and what's needed.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: It wound up in retrospect, shaping who I am as a business owner and a mom because I well, first of all, Kate was still a premature baby with health, you know, concerns, right?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So she was little and I wasn't allowed to put her in daycare until the first winter flu season had passed.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I allowed is a strong word, but like highly recommended that I not put her around other kids because you know, kids get really sick all the time when they're around other kids.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was just it would be really hard on her little lungs.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I brought her into the office with me out of necessity because I didn't feel like I had a choice.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I didn't have another solution, and and it wound up being the best thing.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was fantastic.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I loved having her in the office with me.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of funny, but I like almost had no walls because first of all, everybody knew I had had twins, you know, and then I'm here with one baby, so it's an obvious thing when anybody was looking at me.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually felt there was some catharsis in being able to talk about her, and there still is, you know, like I love that I love when I hear Ella's name or people mention her or remember her, you know, on their birthday or on the anniversary of her death, or just other occasions too.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's I mean, I think about her every day anyway, so it's just really nice when people bring up her name.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I and then I had Kate in the office with me, and I'd bring her to I'd bring her to co-council meetings and opposing council meetings and client meetings, and she was just there.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I had a phone call one time and I was like, I know that there's a baby crying in the background, but I can hear you and I know what you're talking about.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm with you in this conversation.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say nice way to like butter up a bad advocate or a really stern judge.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you've had this baby there, you know.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I mean, what are you gonna do?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of times if I had an oral argument, my mom would come to the courthouse with me and then wheeler around the block while I was arguing and then I'd breastfeed her afterwards or whatever.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she couldn't go to daycare.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I couldn't.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, I mean, for you, uh you did have your own firm, so you could make the rolls, and this is just the way it's gonna be.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: But on the other hand, you know, it's a lot, you know, you still had to juggle a lot.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I went on to have three more children, and others in my firm have had children too.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's remained the policy of my firm for these 18 years that children are welcome in our office.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's not just premature ones, but anybody who needs to bring their kid in.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: All of my kids have been office babies.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Kate, I got her in daycare when she was 11 months old, right after the flu season passed.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So she was with me 11 months.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Megan was with me, she's my next, she's 15 now, and she was with me um until I think she was eight months old, and then she was kind of getting, she was a meaty baby, she was nine pounds full term.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: She was like robust, she was amazing, most amazing baby, but she was like ready for daycare.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then um five years later, um, I divorced and remarried, and I had his a lot of a lot of relationships crumble and loss with loss of a child, too.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, that's something that is worth acknowledging.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um, there were, of course, many issues before that, but that was obviously a final straw, if not the is losing a child.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I found my wonderful husband, and we had two more children too.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Ifez stayed with me for about a year in the office, and then Deep Ball, he was my youngest, he's eight years old now, and he stayed with me.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: He was so chill, it's such a good office baby.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: He was actually with me for I think 18 months in my office because he just wanted to be around mom.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: He still does, he's still like that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: He was my little snuggle, snuggle buddy.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right when I got him in, I'm like, okay, it's time.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: He needs to at least be around other kids.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I got him in daycare, and then six weeks later the pandemic hit.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: So then he was back home with me for another year and a half or two years or something.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So he he was with me almost all of his baby and toddlerhood in the office.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, with all of us, because was home in the pandemic too, but yeah, and his siblings.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: I still to this day, like I have a room designated for kids in my office suite where I have games and books and crafts and a big TV with Disney, you know, and other apps where they can watch and a mini fridge to make it comfortable for them and for parents, like in the summertime.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And my kids love, I work at home most of the time, but when I go into the office, they're always, oh, can we go too?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: They love it because I have little, you know, candies around the office.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: They can watch TV and lounge, they feel like big kids.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: The snacks are different at the office than at home, probably, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: But that, you know, both losing Ella and then having a premature baby is what's set in motion, what's become a core characteristic of who I am as a as a lawyer, as an employer, as a woman attorney.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I really encourage other law firms to consider.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it will it would help anybody if you, you know, if you've lost a child or lot you're going through anything in life, like the option of sometimes being able to hold a little tighter to the ones you have, you know, and bring them with you as shit, I think it'd be really helpful.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if there are, you know, things that compassionate law firms can do.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think having a an environment where maybe it's not like obviously eight hours a day every day isn't gonna work for the kids, but like knowing that there's a space where the kids feel welcome to come in and hang out during the work would be really helpful for people, I think.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Situations that come up and and things like that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I I definitely hear you, and I love that that was a positive that came out of the situation.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I know you and I have talked a little bit about how this particular loss impacted both of us in terms of who we are as attorneys and how we lead and how we show up for clients and things.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I know there was a pre-loss Vanessa who was a lot tougher.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was known to make grown men cry at depositions.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was the bad cop.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: And when there's a good cop, bad cop, I was always the bad cop.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, you probably can't see me like that litigation beforehand.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was tough as nails, you know, really tough.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: But how about you?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: How did you change?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, pre-loss Cassie, even though I was competent, I wasn't confident, you know.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was a younger lawyer, and I just would get nervous before oral argument and feel a little queasy.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: I just kind of lost all of that because in my head after losing Ella, I would just nothing else felt comparable in terms of suffering.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I knew I had survived somehow and continue to survive what I think is the worst thing a human being can survive.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of agreement that loss of a child is the worst thing that any human can suffer.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I've survived that.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I'm headed into oral argument or speaking at a conference now, those butterflies just they just went away because what's the worst that can happen?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be any worse than what I've survived.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I developed, ironically, just more confidence and less nervousness and being secure in my ability and the story I had to tell.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because so when a judge asks a question that maybe I don't have the perfect answer to, well, it's not life or death, you know.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it just kind of clears out all of the clutter from your brain.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it actually made me a better litigator because I wasn't having any of those nerves anymore and a better, better speaker.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I enjoy speaking more because I'm just not nervous anymore that I'm not.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's not weird at all.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely put things in perspective for you.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you've mastered the toughest thing you ever could.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Not that you did it voluntarily or whatever, raise your hand to go through that.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, resilience is something that just happens to you.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not something you seek out.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then for me, I don't know if it was confidence so much that changed me, but I became very much softer.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I had heard this expression that loss and trauma either makes you a harder person, more brittle, more uh, I don't know, self-protective, or it makes you softer.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, it was I definitely became a much softer person.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I found my meaning in service to others.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I really mean that.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just like um, you know, what people say.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: I found that the way I felt better about anything that I did, like the reason I get up in the morning and go is don't to help someone to be of service to someone.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: So for clients, that's easy.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm much more empathetic.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: I really can see where they're coming from, help them and listen, listen really, really well to what their needs are.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like my superpower is this pragmatic empathy.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: I try to be practical when I hear that.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then in terms of the firm and my leadership journey here, you know, I'm very big on mentorship.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: When I work with associates, I really try to pour into them.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I want them to be better lawyers than I am.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna know I succeeded when I help shape someone's journey so that they're just excellent at everything they do and they feel good.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't know about you, but starting out at firms, when I did, which was, you know, before the computer was invented, it was like, get out there, do it, you'll learn.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: You'll learn by doing, you know.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it was terrifying.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: It was just at times, it was horrible.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I never ever want any of my people to go through that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: So we prepare.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm saying if this is your first oral argument, let's do a mock one, you know, and we'll do that.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was that was kind of, you know, the difference is I just became a lot more gentle and careful with people.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I try to lead with kindness.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's funny because my firm has done for the last two years, we've done a bespoke leadership program for our senior attorneys that are on the cusp of becoming partners, and we're trying to help them, you know, figure out how to do this leadership thing, how do you supervise, how do you give constructive feedback, and then also the business side of it, you know, to be entrepreneurial and business development.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: At the close of our last session, I said something to the group and they probably think I'm so crazy because lawyers don't talk like this.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: So at the end of the session, I said it was really my privilege to be working with you all this year.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it wouldn't be a meeting with Vanessa if I didn't leave you with your affirmation.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: So be kind to yourself.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: The voice we hear the most in this world is our own.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: So make sure you're always talking with kindness.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they all look at me and I'm I walked out of there going, Oh my god, they probably think I'm like a fruit loop or something.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: If I heard that, I would just be, I mean, I am your biggest fan.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: If I heard that in that context, I'd be like, Oh, she's the one I'm gonna go to.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: She's the one who is gonna be able to listen and help me out.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's great that you're doing that for them.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Unlike you, you know, you had so much more confidence.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: I was absolutely terrified to speak again.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's where your trauma occurred.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I can't even imagine having to relive going and speaking, and yeah, um, yeah, that'd be really so I had some full-blown panic attacks where I'd have to do my, you know, breathing as because I always spoke.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, was been speaking for years at ABA things and webinars and all kinds of stuff.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: But to this day, I still really have a hard time going to Philadelphia.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, you know, sorry, Philadelphia, you're uh you're not in my good graces anymore.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in the NICU a long time in the hospital before that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: So 11 weeks total, I was like vitamin D deficient at the end of it.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: I got osteopenia at H I was 29 years old, you know, because uh these drugs flush through your bones.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it was a lot, but the soap of the hospital, it's still this my same healthcare provider.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I, whenever I go in, the smell of it, I just wish they could change their soap brand because that smell of the soap brings me right back to those days.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's real, you know.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Those are those are physiological consequences of trauma that people have to deal with.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I've done pretty well overall out of necessity.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had to go back to the same place because my kids needed follow-up doctor appointments.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you just can't avoid it.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: What am I gonna do?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it's beneficial to my practice too.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you mentioned at the start I represent people with disability benefits, and I find that I can relate to suffering easier than I could have, you know, at 28 years old with no health issues ever to happen to me, you know.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I know I can understand how somebody's life is disrupted.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be by loss of a child or loss of anybody, but loss of your physical capability, loss of your mental health.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: These are all losses that people that we as humans need to deal with.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of holding someone's hand and guiding them through to get their incomes together, to see them to the other side of it potentially.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredibly rewarding for me.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love helping my clients, I love being there for them in that way.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I have had it's not always the case that people like you or me are able to return to work successfully.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have had people on long-term disabilities from loss of a child.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: And to help them, thankfully, my team, they're really good about wanting to shield me from the details of those losses because they know that it would be too much for me.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm, you know, we read medical records, we take declarations, you know, it's just a lot of detail.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And they shield me from that.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, I'm aware of everything.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's my firm.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know that not every person is able to return to work after losing a child.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm grateful that I have been able to because my work is really rewarding, and I'm sure you're grateful too.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we've been able, we've been in flexible enough environments where we could kind of adjust either our work situation or have colleagues who understand us and can adjust things with us because they value us at humans and not even as humans, and not everybody has that same sense.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really that's really sad.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: They aren't there and that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: would be you know what i would want people to take away from this this episode and thanks for coming on this journey with me cassie i know this isn't easy stuff um i would want people what people that really think about is you know what are people carrying that we don't know about and it's easier just to just to be kind just in case you know like lead with positivity lead with gentleness and save the bad moods save the go for the throat type of litigation tactics for somebody else because yeah they're not gonna work on me my eyes when people behave badly I feel like they don't have bigger things going on in their life that they feel like that's acceptable because when you understand and when you're compassionate you and you've been through something it does change you you want to be a kinder person because you know that it's important not to add to other people's suffering it's important to firms like I'm sure my firm didn't know what to do because I don't think anybody had been you know a professional and had like a a loss like this before.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I would just encourage them hey maybe maybe bring in your EAP provider to talk to the folks in the office because nobody knows what to say about grief.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody does you know either they say something completely inappropriate or which I'm sure both of us heard that I know I've come up with suggestions over the years like it's always appropriate to say there are no words or I'm so sorry for your loss.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine those are like if you don't know what to say saying that will be appropriate and comforting but trying to relate it on the other hand to like oh I know exactly how you feel because my dog passed away last year is is just going to why I mean why don't don't try to relate it to your own circumstance unless you've been through the exact same circumstance you know I actually lost a couple friends and I tightened some friendships people who were really there for me I'm sure you feel the same and they still are it's my core circle but I remember there was this one woman we weren't close close friends but she was like yeah I know just how you feel because I had an emergency C-section and it was really traumatic.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: And her baby was like alive and healthy and full term and I thought I just couldn't I didn't know what to say.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was you know a month after I lost my child you know like it was really so don't in people who say oh they're in a better place I mean you may believe that and that may be actually true but it's not helpful because when you've lost a child you know that the the best place is for them to be with you and your family you know so like just you could probably Google it or ask chat GPT and it'll give you some suggestions of things to say or not say but unless you don't say I get it unless you've been saying like you know I hear you and uh and I had a lot of people ask me what can I do and I didn't even know what I needed you know so what I tell people no no yeah I didn't know how to ask I didn't know what to do but I had a friend on the night of Ella surgery who came and just said Yeah and that's what I I ended up telling a colleague of mine whose whose friend lost a son similar to to mine in college and she's like I don't know what to do and I said you know what you could just sit there and be with them.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to talk you don't have to do anything just knowing that you're there you know yeah just knowing you're you're available you're there writing a card bringing a meal you know simple things really nothing nothing elaborate just but yeah just being there is yeah I will never forget my friend for doing that she's she's one of the ones who is still just you know on the human side for firm leaders or employers or anybody else just you know take that time to give people grace and give them the time that they need to to get through it and they'll come out the other side hopefully um being a stronger person or you know with different skills.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a roller coaster right so like you may think oh they're on the other side of it or it's been sufficient time that I'm sure it's fine.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it may not be a good day or a good week and you may be surprised that they're having a hard time like around the anniversary of the death I always take day off I take off Evan's birthday and I take off the anniversary of his death and I just because I know I never know what I'm gonna be like that day.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah you know so yeah I don't know yeah I go I visit a rose garden her name's Ella Rose so I roses are ever every anniversary I go visit a rose garden that's what my touch on Evan's birthday I encourage my friends to do an act a random act of kindness because that's kind of you know what his his deal was he was very kind to people so yeah thank you so much for for going through this but I think you know lessons learned is you know be patient be gentle with people and if you're going through it you know it's it's time and uh it it the loss never goes away your grief never goes away but you do find a way through it and so that it it can sit you know besides you and I hope for both of our sakes at some point we don't look at ourselves and say pre-Cassie post you know Cassie and the same thing for me it's just it's just ever those both sides can just integrate and we're just you know who we are so no that's a that's a good thought yeah thank you so much for bringing the topic to people and talking about it in such a compassionate and kind way that is who you are you are compassionate you are kind and this is just this topic is it's important and people don't talk about it enough so hopefully it gives some comfort to somebody even if they haven't gone through loss but maybe they know somebody who has suffered a loss maybe it'll help them to and they're all different kinds of losses and as you said that it's not a grading you know some people feel different loss profoundly and um grief is grief.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: So and you're amazingly compassionate and kind too Cassie that's why we get along so well I know so thank you for coming on and listeners I hope you take away something wonderful from this podcast episode.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you this podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice or a solicitation to provide legal services.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: The information in this podcast is not intended to create and receipt of it does not constitute a lawyer client relationship.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: The views and opinions expressed on the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC.