Latest / Pod Therapy / #360: Abusive Father Thanksgiving, Not Single Want Mingle, Out of State Therapist

Transcript

#360: Abusive Father Thanksgiving, Not Single Want Mingle, Out of State Therapist · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We did too have a federal You're full of it.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: To us.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, anyway, he's gonna be out. This is my knowledge of.
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: Policy.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: That's why people come to the show hot takes. This
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: episode was made possible buy our therap paramour, the Theity.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: There it is dark Lord himself, Jim's Fascia Fushia okay,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: and partners start to being ticket from Fabulous Las Vegas
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: bod Therapy, Real people, real problems, and real therapists. You
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: can submit your questions anonymously at pot therapy dot net
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: or email us at pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: And now broadcasting from the Churn. That's Jim, that's Whitney,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: I Nick. It's time for some pod therapy.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: So in the last episode with Whitney and I, where
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: we were unsupervised by Nick, we introduced our new we
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: at the time the paramour, but we have changed it
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: to Theity. Uh and uh. He explained the joke. So
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: at the time we were like, we don't get the joke.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: So he messaged us all on discord and explain the joke.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: And he said, here's the bit, Jim. We've all met
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: Jim's mom like we've met members of of you know,
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: hosts families a bunch of times, but Jim's dad has
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: never been discussed, so it's never been introduced as a
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: character to the show, leaving a huge opportunity for that
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: person to become whatever we want. And basically their argument was,
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: remember how Jim went to evangelical university stuff, wouldn't it
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: be great if Jim's dad was Satan? And so that's
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: his bit, is that he has signed up as a
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: patron as my father the dark Lord, and then he's
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: a Jim's Faja.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I'm happy with all of it.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, the the thinking through was excellent. Yeah, but
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: you know, next time, don't expect us to connect all
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: those dots.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: We've got Tess in the studio. Hello, Tess. Tess gave
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: us some gifts, so check out the Patreon if you
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: want to hear all the amazing things that she got us, iPads, laptops,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: all sorts of crazy stuff.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Drugs that she smuggled.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: He got Whitney, Yeah, Whitney.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: I also brought some stuff from France, you did. I
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: brought you all some French chocolates, so on air, Jim, Now,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I did have French wine. But since you guys fucked
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: up things so much. When I was gone, I decided
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I'm keeping the wine. That's you can have the chocolates.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: So there you go.
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: We deserve that.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Whatever you really do.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: It wasn't that bad. Some of that wasn't our fault,
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: that it was unavoidable.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Whatever.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Anyway, Welcome back from Paris. Nick, We're all glad that
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: you're here. Welcome tests, longtime support of the show. Thank
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: you for putting up with us all these years, and
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: forgetting our show tattooed on your body. Yeah, which I
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: still I'm fine. I've made peace with it.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: We compromised by me not putting the title.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: That's on there.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: It's just the cute.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what that's actually what I'm doing.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank god, Okay, good, all right, I could sleep
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: putting Gym's name on it. Chocolate.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, But if you would like to come to the
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: pre show hangout, go to patreon dot com slash therapy.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: We talked to Test a little bit more about what's
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: going on in Canada. We hear all about Nick's lovely
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: French tour de France. Can I say that? Can I?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: We?
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Okay? Excellent?
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: And then of course most importantly over all those stories
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: is my trip to Disneyland and to Nashville.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Back to back weekends. Buddy, Yeah, it's a lot. Nashville
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: is the Paris of Tennis.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I consider it that.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Also I insisted on not. Okay, so we're doing French chocolates.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: I will be eating my first French chocolates.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, the best time to eat chocolate
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: is while doing a podcast.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: I love that carmel.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, getting open the cheesies.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: Just like straight, like toffee and caramel. Okay, makes the
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: light nice light snack.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Quite Can you bring him to Paris next time?
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: That's all that means.
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: There is.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: A patre.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: It's funny because as much as the Patreon level would
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: cost to get me to go, you'd have to double
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: that to get Nick to hang out with me.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: And here's the thing. If give me a nice camera.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: Just follow me the go pay my way just.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: To follow you around the camera.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: Oh that sounds awful.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Oh did you guys see that if you follow me
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: on Instagram? Yeah, I posted a picture. So one of
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: the nights we were walking through. We're just walking around
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: and we came by the loop. So I walk through
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: there at night. Yeah, it's kind of cool. It's all
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: lit up and everything.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: This is the pyramid.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I mean that's it's there too, but
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: it's a huge pyramid building. Anyway, the pyramid was added later, yeah,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: much later. So anyway, there's a guy playing the cello.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Oh and in the middle of one of the main
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: walkways to walk through, and so it echoes and the
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: acoustics are amazing.
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: I think, did you look incredible?
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Amazing?
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've seen that.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Fun to go to my Instagram.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: And by the way, I appreciated your postings on Facebook
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: and Instagram. My favorite and when you and I have
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: talked about this was your cropped photo of the Eiffel Tower. Like,
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: of all the objects that maybe shouldn't be cropped panoramically
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: and like maybe just not the landscape, get the vertical, maybe.
• 5:53
  Speaker 6: The fish and then tell me what you think, he's saying, Yeah, okay,
• 5:56
  Speaker 6: I'm going to show you.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so you mean you took a picture of the
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: Eiffel Tower with your phone on its side and straight
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: up and down.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: We can't see the whole life.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: That's not what he means.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, he's well, no, that is mostly what
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, the thing he posted is so okay.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: When he tried to explain why this happened, but I
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: didn't understand it.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Instagram. The Instagram irritated me. I had so many really
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: good pictures that he ended up not using post it.
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: The picture yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: Yep, go to the pod therapy inst what yeah yeah,
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: so it got completely cut off. So when you posted that,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: I then took that picture from Facebook where I first
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: found it, where you had posted it under your account,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: and then I took a picture of the Eiffel Tower
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: here in Las Vegas. I did see that, and then
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: I put those side by side on our pod therapy Instagram.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: Mostly just make fun of the fact that ours is.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Better than yours.
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: Jim a lot of traveling.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: I did go, yeah, yeah, we're pretty much with the
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: same guy, let me tell you yeah yeah.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Last thought before we go on, I wrote spirit both
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: ways to to Nashville. Oh yeah, I'm finally burning through
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: some points because they also declared bankruptcy on my way home.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: I was on the plane.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh no, I thought, just like that,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: it was gonna be that Hanks movie where they just
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: like I don't have a nation. Now. If you're a
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: mid flight and they declared bankruptcy, they just switch it off.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I guess we can't a war this they're taking that
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: we're not getting paid for this flight. I was really
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: scared because, like on the new like I had the
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Wi Fi going and I was like I paid extra
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: for that. I was like, read the news, it's like
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Spirit declares bankrupt.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: And I'm thinking this pilot's gonna kill us all. I
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: was just like, oh God, I hope they're still taking
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: care of the pilots.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Oh that sucks. Yeah, so Spirit. I have a whole
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: bunch of airline stories too, but I have to tell
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: you guys later because we'll get it. Yeah. Oh man.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: So travel stories galore Patreon dot com, slash Therapy to
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: join us for the pre show hangout. But for now,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: we've got some great questions that are very timely, very relevant,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: and the first one today is Thanksgiving and Family from
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: uh Tessa's fellow therap producer Nathan m oh Ship.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Has it already Thanksgiving? It is? It's gotten away from me.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: I just ordered my turkey yesterday. Matter Thanksgiving, you don't
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: have Thanksgiving, you didn't make friends with Pilgrims.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: Wait, wait, what other one? The Native Americans. You don't
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: even have Native Americans.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: You don't, you don't.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: That is a scientific fact that they have.
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: First, they don't have Native Americans.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: They're Canadians the.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: Continent. Jim, you fucking idiot. We didn't make Canadian North
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: and South America.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: Look, Pocahontas wasn't Canadian.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: And I will not.
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: Allow you to say, oh my gosh, this is not
• 9:09
  Speaker 5: the Patriot.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. I think this is the part of
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the show that they're supposed to be respectable. I know,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: like doctor, yeah, doctor, she.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Only got that back on loan. He loaned to me
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: my title back.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: There's nothing, There's nothing, That's what I'm saying. I just
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I just I turned my chair.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: I just when you see idiocy like this, has to
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: call it out, to call it out. That's why I say,
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: for America, Jim is a fucking idiot.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: I think it's hurtful to say that Pocahontas was Canadian,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: and I'll leave it there. I for one, am on
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: her side. Hello pod therapy people. I am a thirty
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: three year old male living in the United States. My
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: seventy year old father and I had an unstable relationship,
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: and I've come close a few times to cutting him
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: off entirely. About a year and a half ago, this
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: did end up happening after a particularly bad argument we
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: had at the tail end of a seven hour drive.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: He was frustrated about many things, and when I didn't
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: pull over so he could buy cigarettes, he exploded. I
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: should note that he that he doesn't typically smoke, and
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: he's normally quite healthy. He just really wanted some cigarettes
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: that day. He didn't do anything physical, but as I
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: was driving, he screamed obscenities at me for a good
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: ten minutes while I just sat there and tried to
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: keep my cool. I didn't pull over for the SIGs
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: or because of his outburst, because we were at the
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: last leg of our journey and I just wanted to
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: get home. This isn't the first time something like this
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: has happened. In fact, it's quite par for the course,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: and I'm tired of him using me as an emotional
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: punching bag and then expecting everything to go back to normal.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: He's used fear, manipulation and outright verbal abuse as his
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: parenting tactics, and has even hit me a couple of
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: times when I was young. The unfortunate thing is that
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: he doesn't acknowledge any wrongdoing or take responsibility for his actions.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: He doesn't believe in mental health, nor does he believe
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: in showing any kind of vulnerability, and he especially will
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: never admit being wrong, but rather believes that he's right
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: about everything and everyone else is wrong all the time.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: He has literally said this. About a week after that
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: car ride, he sent me an email of what appeared
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: to be an apology, but after reading through it, I
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: saw no apology, but rather him justifying his actions by
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: putting the blame on me, which just made me feel
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: more angry about the situation. I told him we needed
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: to speak in person so that I could clarify what
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: he really meant, since maybe he didn't actually mean it
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: that way, and also I didn't want to start a
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: long email chain concerning the issue. When we finally did meet,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: I apologized for my own behavior and expressed empathy for
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: where he was coming from. Yet he still doubled down
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: and made it very clear that he felt the way
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: I had interpreted in his email and refused to even acknowledge,
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: let alone apologize for the way he acted. This just
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: made me more angry, and so I ended the conversation,
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: telling him that if he couldn't acknowledge any wrongdoing or
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: take responsibility, I could no longer be around him. Since
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: there is no evidence that his behavior will change. I
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: told him to leave me alone and I blocked him
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: got to a little over a month ago, the area
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: we live in was hit by a hurricane. We lost
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: power and water, and there was a lot of natural
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: devastation trees felled, flooding, etc. I still care about my
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: father despite his shortcomings, so after getting my house in order,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: I made my way up to his place to check
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: on him, as he lives in the woods on a
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: mountain and I didn't know what a situation would be.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: We also didn't have cell service at the time, so
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: I couldn't simply call him. It turns out he was
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: fine and his house wasn't damaged. I stayed for a
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: few minutes to make sure he had everything he needed,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: and we were civil towards each other, but didn't talk
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: about the whole issue causing our split. Since then, it's
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: become clear that he thinks everything is back to normal
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: between us, or at least he hopes that it is.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: He's invited me for a family dinner a couple times,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: though ever asking directly, but rather sending my sisters a proxy,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: and tries to send me emails of random stuff he
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: finds on the internet. I, however, don't feel ready for that.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: When it comes to the rest of my immediate family,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: I've never tried to have them pick sides. In fact,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: I encourage them to spend the holidays with him, since
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: he doesn't have anyone else. Now, with this year's holiday
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: fast approaching, they're all hoping that I will come to Thanksgiving,
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: which will be hosted at Dad's house. Honestly, the only
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: reason I'm even considering going is because I do care
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: about and enjoy being around my mother and my sister,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: and I know they want me to be there. I
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: know I'm holding on in negative emotions and holding a grudge,
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: but it's difficult for me to go. I feel that
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: if I do show up, I'll be in a negative state,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: which will just bring down the mood for everyone else.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: I'm considering calling him before Thanksgiving, but I really just
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: don't know how to talk to him about this, or
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: if it's even worth trying. If you could give me
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: any advice, I would greatly appreciate. Love the podcast, Signed Nathan, Thank.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: You Nathan, and thank you for supporting the show.
• 14:08
  Speaker 6: Yes, my question is you mentioned talking to your dad
• 14:13
  Speaker 6: again and if it's even worth it. Did it go
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: well the first time? Has it been going well anytime
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: you've talked to him before? And do you think that
• 14:22
  Speaker 6: his behavior reaction will change if you do, Why would
• 14:25
  Speaker 6: it be different? By seventy I hates to come out
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: the gate downer, but I'm just like I've seen this
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: way too many times.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: Very few older adults change their behaviors with their adult kids.
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: Very few, and if they do, it's because they've been
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: pushed into a corner two and even then, I mean,
• 14:48
  Speaker 6: I'm going to gender stereotype a little bit here, but
• 14:51
  Speaker 6: for older men, they really dig their heels in, is
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: what I've noticed just from my personal experience.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, explain that to my mother in law.
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: She can join that side on the show. Speaking of.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: No, I think my mother in law is a lovely woman.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Let the record show.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: No. But I think you're right in the sense that
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: like at this age, people don't change, Like there's not
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: going to be anything that's going to happen here where
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: he's going to come out and he's like, you know what,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: You're right, I was sorry from what I did. That's
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: not going to happen. I think my advice in this is,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like you have to move the goalpost. You
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: have to change what the meaning of success is going
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: to be here, you know. And I think that may
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: just be just being tolerant of who he is and
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: how he's going to act, and just success is not
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: changing his behavior, But success is uh making it. What
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: do you guys hear that? I don't know what that is?
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: That's there's in the machine? Well did they hear? I
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: don't know, audience, Oh, I hope it did. Yeah, a
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: weird thing. It sounded like somebody was slowly releasing a fart. No,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: So anyway, why don't I say, oh, so, success isn't
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: going to be him changing his behavior. Success is going
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: to be you learning to adapt to his behavior and
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: be able to coexist with his behavior. I think that's
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: probably your best bad.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: Well, you guys, You guys are kind of saying this
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: like it's a downer. I think the ball what's what's
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: the writer's name again?
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Nathan? Nathan? Uh?
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: The ball. I think this is a good thing. The
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: ball is entirely in Nathan's court here, So like you
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: get to decide exactly what you want to do going
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: forward here, and you know everything that's going to happen already.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know how your dad is going.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: To behave going forward, probably for the rest of his life. Uh,
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: and that gets to be Okay, it's not your job
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: to change it. You don't have to change it, So
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: you work within that confine however that means for you.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: And now your dad is clearly opening up a he's
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: offering a bit of an olive branch back in exchange
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: for at least what he perceives to have been an
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: olive branch in the first place. Maybe you meant it
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: as that, and maybe you didn't, but you know that's
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: probably how he perceives you come to check on him. Yeah,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: and that's a good thing to do. Like you want
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: to go check on your dad and everything in case
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: of a hurricane, that's a fine thing to go do. So,
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: like he wants you to be back around, obviously, your
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: family wants you to be back around and in the game.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: So now you get to decide exactly how much of
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: that you want to participate in going forward and just say, like,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be a thing. It doesn't have
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: to be like, well, I'm still not coming to this,
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I'm not coming to this, but I will come to
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: Thanksgiving and I will come to this holiday and whatever else. Like,
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be any of that. It can
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: just be like, yeah, I'm gonna make it to Thanksgiving. Yeah,
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: you don't have to declare what you're going to do
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: going forward. You have to declare that you're going.
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: To come to Thanksgiving, or you don't have to go
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: to or you don't have.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: To go to Thanksgiving. It's exactly My point is, you
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: don't have to do any of these things, but you
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: get to decide one hundred percent. You don't have anything
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: else that you have to rely on here other than
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: your own wants and needs.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I do like the idea of if you go to Thanksgiving,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: set a goal of what you want to accomplish. Yeah,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: and that goal could be I want to have a
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: good conversation with my mom. Sure, I want to talk
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: to my sister and see how things are going on
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: her nephew. Maybe, yeah, I want to play with my nephew.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: You know, set goals like that, so that if you've
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: done that, then that's a successful trip. It has nothing
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: to do with dad. Dad can be greater, he can
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: be an asshole, and it has no effect either way.
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: I just want to quickly add to that, if there
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: is something that happens, like your dad starts yelling at
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: you or screaming at you. This is maybe just a
• 18:49
  Speaker 6: personal opinion, but if you don't enjoy those things, you
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: do not have to stay and put up with it.
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: I know you're stuck in the car with him, so
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: you know, you do what you can.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Which, let's be honest, after seven hours and one.
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: I was like, I'm not talking.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: To you seven hours with mother to Resa, She's like,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: give me some fucking cigarettes. Nobody wants to deal with
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: you for that long. But no, I agree with both
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: of these points. So he's seven, you get him some second,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: if you're mad at them, get him cigarettes. No, But
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: like I'm filtered, you get him some chews. So like,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: I look at this from a couple of different angles. One,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: I really like this point of redefining what success is
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and taking a sense of your power back because a
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: lot of times in this situation where like you treated
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: me poorly. I'm trying to create this boundary. And this
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: backfires a lot in family relationships, right, because it turns
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: out you're related to these people forever. You have way
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: too many entanglements with them. There are going to be
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: times that you would have tolerated the pretty well and
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: you want to be around them, but you've made this big, fat,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: huge like declarative choice it as a reaction to their
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: really toxic behavior. So it always is so messy. And
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: this is why I think when I'm sitting with patients
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: that are dealing with something similar, and many of them
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: are at this time of year, one of the things
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: we're talking about is I don't necessarily want you to
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: put the person in time out. I don't necessarily want
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: you to say, uh, they're out of my life. I'm
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: excommunicating them.
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: Like a punishment.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I want to put behaviors in time out, right, So
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: in the same way that we raise our children in
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: that way, or you know other situations where you have
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: to like, you can't just quit somebody. You can't just
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: divorce them or walk away from them forever.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Can't quit. You can't quit.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: You broke back Mountain reference completely.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, seriously, that is Laura's text tone when I text her.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, yes, exact quit you.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's that line when I text her. I know
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: that's really cute. I know, I guess because I think
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: because we've been together for so long and she's like,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: you've never seen this movie and is like no love,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't until like last year I finally watched it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Laura text hims like I just can't quit you, and
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: he's like, I love you, Jake Jillenhall.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Anyway, back to the story.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but this idea of like, you know, so when
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: little kids are being naughty or whatever and they're mis
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: using a toy, a lot of times they're saying put
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: the toy in time out, right, and so like the
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: same thing here, I want to put the behavior in
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: time out, which if I'm met Thanksgiving, if he starts misbehaving,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: if he starts being in impolite and wrong, then I
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: am going to walk up to mom and walk up
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: sister and say, you guys, have a lovely night. It's
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: been so great seeing you, but I think I need
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: to leave now. I've had enough of this. Right, And
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: then if you want to say that to dad or
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: not do it. But giving people this understanding of like,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: this behavior is unacceptable and when you behave like this,
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: you won't find me nearby that a teaches them. And
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: as much as we might say, hey, this human is
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: and old and not gonna learn new tricks, that's fine
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: and all, but they also still won't walk into a
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: library and start screaming because there are situations and context
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: that they can understand. They can only behave certain ways,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: and that fundamentally is one of the things that we
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: can have some amount of control over. Is yes, removing
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: yourself physically pulling away, but I really like using those
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: weapons strategically when we just drop the nuke and we're
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: just like, nope, you're dead to me, old man, We're
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: done forever until the next literal holiday comes or there's
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: a hurricane, or your sister gets sick or somebody has
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: a baby, and then you're like, shit, now I have
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: to like undo the ultimatum or undo my declaration, And
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: there's this fear exactly what the right sideway like? Great,
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: So now I'm just I'm showing them I'm a pushover.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: I'm showing that I'm validating you can do whatever you
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: want because treat me any old way and I'll show
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: back up. Which is why I really like a more nuanced,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: sort of strategic use of the approach where we're sort
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: of evacuating as needed and like and I get it right,
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: or what you went through is really really difficult. Another
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: thing in the note that I think is really important
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: and something I think we can draw from, like old
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: classic therapy on is this idea of we the one
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: so like Victor Frankel wrote that book Man Search for Meeting,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: and one of his biggest takeaways from that book, and
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: the thing that really became the center of his entire philosophy,
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: was that whenever he was in Auschwitz, he realized the
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: one thing he had control over was his attitude, which
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: sounds so small, like it sounds like a cat poster,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: you know, like attitudes everything, But like he was like, no,
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: for real, Like these people could take my food, they
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: could take my life, they could take my sleep, they
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: could beat us, they could they could take my family
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: they did. The one thing though, they could not control,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: is how I choose to think, behave, and respond. They
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: cannot choose my attitude. So he would whistle while he worked,
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: and he'd find like these ways to be sort of
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: rebellious in that situation, and he talked about how that
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: one personal freedom is what kept him alive, was this
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: recognition that this is the one area they have no
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: control over it, and these are the actual Nazis, right,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: and so like your father as.
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: Bad as it is what I'm saying, right, your.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: Father's a Nazi, And I'm saying that you you can
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: control only one thing, which is your attitude. And so
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: you talk about that and you say, well, I'm scared
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: to go to Thanksgiving because I'm fearful that my attitude
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: will be poor, and I don't want to be toxic
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: to mom and to my sister, and I one want
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: to respect your level of insight and empathize that. I
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: think you have great understanding, and I think you're you're
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: aware of yourself. And I think it's totally fair that
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: there are situations and people that trigger us and we're
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: allowed to recognize that as an unsafe space for me
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: and I don't trust me to be appropriate, totally get it, writer.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: And at the same time, I think there's a lot
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: here to explore when we want to maybe get into
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: more Victor Frankel thinking and how he would unpack and
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: logo therapy, what we can do and what our ability
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: is to control our attitude even in a terrible situation
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: or something really frustrating, you know, like Thanksgiving with a
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: toxic family member, but you think a lot of people
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: will relate to right now.
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: I think sometimes negative attitude comes from feeling out of
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: control too.
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: You feel like you're at this other.
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: Person's when kind of what you described a moment ago, Jim, like, oh,
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: they just get to get away with this, and like
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: you are kind of left as the victim, like the
• 25:12
  Speaker 6: person's sort of beat around, and then you're caring for
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: your father by showing up from when he needs you
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: or when your mom or sister need that they need you.
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: But I feel like a lot of that.
• 25:25
  Speaker 6: Anger or resentment comes from feeling like I don't have control.
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: So kind of what Nick was saying earlier, and then
• 25:30
  Speaker 6: what you're like continuing to say is finding a way
• 25:33
  Speaker 6: to discover your control and setting those boundaries and choices
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: before you go into this situation is going to be
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: super important to help adjust that attitude because you're like,
• 25:42
  Speaker 6: all right, I got this, I got a plan, and
• 25:45
  Speaker 6: if he does.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: This I do that and so and to the extent
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: that you can let others know that that's what you're
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: going to do, or even if you I mean, I
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: don't know what the dynamic is of telling Dad, but
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: I like that idea of a boundary set to say, Dad,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: you know I have decided I will come. I accept
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: you're invite I'll be there Thanksgiving, But aside from the
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: girls hearing us, I want to tell you to your
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: face if if you get loud, or if you get
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: aggressive at me or you speak at me inappropriately, Dad,
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: I'm going to leave. And I don't mind if that
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: ruins your Thanksgiving. And I also am not going to
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: hide the fact that I left because of you. If
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: you understand that, then I'll show up. And I think
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: that if you can present it in a straightforward way,
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: a lot of five year old men will go.
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: All right now because those guy said it's always everyone
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: else's fault.
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: So he'll just be like, well, why would you leave Thanksgiving?
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: Like don't Yeah, I'm telling you don't start.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: Non won't be none fair.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: It's a solid argument. I mean, don't you know what
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: you guys were reading this the wrong way. Let's get
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: on dad's side. I think. I think Nick just brought
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: up a.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Really good port.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: I just want some cigarettes.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: I've never seen somebody quit being a therap producer faster.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: I wrote them a letter and they took the other
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: guy's side.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I hate, I hate to say it.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: It's it's fault, but so test y'all don't have Thanksgiving,
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I guess we do in October, which is this.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: I'm looking around the room.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: You're all just because we get turkey twice, but it's not.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Like back to back to back.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: A second, a little bit. Do you think he, of
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: all people would appreciate the separation of important events and
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: important holidays and not having them stacked on.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like you're hinting at we have decided
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: to go risk it for Christmas.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Risk Christmas brisket. Yeah, that sounds amazing on the little
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: crown of thorns. Yes, what that's a manger.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: So in Canada is Thanksgiving as emotional as it is
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: down here where we all hate each other and shop.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: And oh yeah family. The thing I wanted to bring
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: up was that I actual have a very similar situation
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: in my family, so that I have actually pretty much
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: removed my stepmother from my life, my dad's second wife,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: because I don't know what her problem is with me.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Do you buy your cigarettes?
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: No, that could be it. But we've always had attention
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: ever since, like ever since they were dating and engaged
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: and after they were married. I don't know really where
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: it stems from, other than the fact that I don't
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: think she takes kindly to the fact that I don't
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: think of her as my mom, but I already have
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: a mom.
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: Were you when they got married.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I was an adult. Oh, okay, I was a full
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: on adult.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Oh that's weird. I'm on your side on that.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: Like, my dad is married, he got married, he got
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: remarried when I was in my late thirties.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, and I call his wife by her first name.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: We have a relationship and that's it.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's always been a tension between us, and
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: we've actually had previous blowouts. As the writer mentions, there's
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: been other instances in the past than this most recent
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: car trip, and they've been little, they've been big. And
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: it got to the point where anytime I was visiting
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: family for Christmas, Thanksgiving, any kind of an event, Easter
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: or whatever, I was walking on eggshells. For fear of
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: offending her and starting a fight that I had not
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: meant to do, and I've even had a fight started.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: When I thought the night went really well, I got
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: a text later saying that you were very disrespectful for
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: some reason.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, so a great night.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I thought everything went well, everybody was having
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: a good time. And then like the next morning, I
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: get I wake up to a text. So we had
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: How long has it been to a year and a half?
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: About a year and a half there was a huge
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: blowout over something as simple as borrowing an electronic piano
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: that ended in her screaming at me on their front
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: lawn in front of my dad, and I have not
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: spoken to her or seen her since.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Are holidays an issue? Do you just not go?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I It broke my heart because it means that I
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: don't get to see my dad as much as i'd
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: like to. And I'm very close to both of my parents,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: and so I that after that blow up, I went home.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: I had to stop the car because I just it.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Finally it hit me about five minutes up the road
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: and Dustin's like, do you want me to drive? I
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: was like, and I wrote him an email and just said, look,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: I'm so, and I was. My heart was broken. Not
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: for me, because I can. I was ready to throw down.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: But it breaks my heart that I had to beat
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: the living out of your wife.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: But it was my heart was broken for my dad
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: because he's the guy stuck in the middle between his
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: daughter and his wife. And I never ever would have
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: wanted him. And that's why I kept the peace for
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: so long, because I wanted.
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: So.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I completely related to Nathan one hundred percent, and it's true,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: they're not going to change. And she she literally later on, uh,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I told my dad, tell your dad to tell me
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: that if I apologized that we could go back to whatever.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And my dad was like, he sheepishly brought brought this to.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And he's the lawyer.
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: He's like, I know my client is going to turn,
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: but I'm obligated to break it to there.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: You know, after the initial blow up, I send an
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: email said, look, I'm not coming over anymore. You know,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: we will, we will figure out our relationship. There's nothing
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: wrong with us, but I'm not going to be visiting
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: with that woman with her anymore. I'm taking myself out
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: of this situation. I'm removing myself from the narrative. And
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: then he sheepishly brought me her nego quote unquote negotiations
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: of surrender right, and I told him, I said, there's
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: nothing that I have to apologize or I did nothing wrong.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: I do think that's really funny. I love the idea
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: of like, if you apologize, I'll give you this. Yeah,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: as in like like who's going to take that deal?
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Like I just I had done it.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: For years and like you said, Jim, like I was.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: About to say, Jim will take that deal every day?
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And I'll tell you exactly how I would
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: do it, my my little defiant like I'd be like,
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: fuck this bitch, but then part and be like okay,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: I go to chat GPT and I'd be like, write
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: an apology regarding these things. And then I would just
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: like get the little paragraph like copy paste done and
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: then just be like, ah, that's my little like defiance
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: and even really write it. Then yeah, that's my dirty
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: little secret, and as we're eating turkey and be like, yeah,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: you like that turkey, don't you, idiot? I'm not really apologetic.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: But the problem with that is that then I'm putting
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: myself into a situation that I'm no longer comfortable with. Yeah,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: and I'm not happy about it, and I'm putting my
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: own happiness underneath in order to walk on heid shells
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: for this person. Yeah, So I I understand where Nathan's
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: coming from, because your e're stuck between a rock and
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: a hard place. You want to make peace with the family.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: But and I've I've made it clear to the rest
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: of my family, my sister, my mom, my dad, Like,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: let's let's like for Christmas. Since then my dad came over.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: We said a day like the day before like Christmas
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: eve Eve or something, or the day after Christmas, that
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: he would come over in him my sister and I
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: and Dustin, we would do a gift exchange, just us
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: have a little dinner or something and instead of doing
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: the family thing. So maybe maybe that's an option, but
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I have to kind of vote for if this has
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: been an ongoing thing, which it sounds like it has
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: even since childhood. They mentioned Nathan mentioned like some abuse,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that it might this final like the fight that I had,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the blow out that I had was the final straw.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I had made the piece and kept the piece and
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: walked on eggshells for years and finally I was like, nope,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: you screamed profanities at me in the front yard in
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: front of your neighbors and my father. I'm done.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: I like your idea of there's a way to have
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: an alternative sure holiday, yeah, where it can be like, hey,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: I'm not available to be around you, dad, but I
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: do want to. And that's what Nathan said in the
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: letter too. Like Nathan didn't say I ruler was shedad
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: so bad, Like no, I really want to see my sister,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: my mom. So I love the suggestion of, like there's
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: a way to go visit with them separately or to
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: and to make a sacrifice along those lines to say, hey,
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: you guys can come to me. What don't we do
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: with Thanksgiving? You know, breakfast or lunch?
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: And as adults, like when your kids, it's harder. Like
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: my dad and my mom split when I was seven,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: So for the longest part of our life they were amicable,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: and so we would do family Christmases together. But by
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: the time we turned like eighteen, they were like, yeah,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: we're not doing that anymore. I don't know, I've spent
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: enough years just making nice. But you know, like when
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: you can become an adult, Like, yes, I understand for
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: those who are of the religious side that Christmas is
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: an important day. But for we, we're a very secular family.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: So we were just like Christmas Eve, Chris the Boxing day.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Who cares like it's.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: It's important fucking Canada.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It's important for the fac Like the most important thing
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: about Christmas and Thanksgiving and Easter, like any of those
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: holidays for us is being together, right, yeah, right, And
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: so you know, because we're not worried about Thanksgiving in particular, Like,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know how many people are putting a lot
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: of stock between the history of Thanksgiving and getting together
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: for that.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: Currently, I'm the only one in this room that cares
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: about the history of Thanksgiving. That's truely clarify that, yes, yeah.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: So you know, if you have a meal the week before,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: the week after, a couple days later, it doesn't matter.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: I like this idea, and I think that there's value
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: to it because even if long term Nathan does reconcile
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: or there's some kind of change in the relationship, if
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: this all just kind of went down, I can appreciate
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: saying Dad, I'm gonna let you feel this. I'm gonna
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: let you feel the natural consequences of your actions, with
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: the hope that maybe down the road, I do make
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: a choice to give you an opportunity to show me differently.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: But if I don't allow you to experience this sting,
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: nothing will change, and maybe nothing can change anyway, in
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: which case I should go ahead and create space and
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: come up with alternate ways for me to engage. And
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: like that does me checking on you after a freaking
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: natural disaster is not you know, an armstice, Like it's
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: not like, okay, everything's fine now, Like, no, we're family, dude.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Like you get hit by a car, I'm the emergency contact.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: I will show up make sure you're not drowning in
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: your property, like I'm there. But at the same time,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: that doesn't mean I'm just you have permission to treat me.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: In any old damn way.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: So I like that test. I think it's a really
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: good point.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well keep us updated, Nathan. I'd love to
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: hear follow up.
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: I know, how does Thanksgiving and enough going?
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: You guys call it Thanksgiving? Yes, but it's in October.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Don't act like I'm weird, you guys put it in
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: another fucking month. I just you can just do that.
• 37:43
  Speaker 7: You can just do that and be like truly Thanksgiving whatever.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: We're gonna take quick break in when we come back.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: We're talking about not being single but wanting to mingle.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: You're listening to pod therapy after.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Judy schnyder, Le Cassa,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Carolyn Albert, Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, Mike Helm, Darren Cunningham,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Matt and Lisa Tangeman and Cody the DeLorean Guy and
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: if you would like to sponsor the show and become
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: a their producer a Patreon dot com slash therapy, We've
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: got the Office trivia.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I'm gonna wreck you guys.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: True or false? This is a chair.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: My office. Dustin, did you guys ever watch The Office?
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: I did a little bit.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I haven't watched the.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so all right, okay, Dustin, you're with Jim.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: It'll be my lifeline.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: We'll put you with Whitney.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: Well, they own three points on the fly? Are you
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: in one point?
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Multiple choice? I can't be in all right. I tried
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: to copy and paste these without looking at the answers,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: and I couldn't do it. All right, Uh, three on
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: the fly fly one multiple choice, and we're gonna one
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: person at a time. Okay, so you're gonna go to
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: a question.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay, you're going so question for j question for Jim.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Let's go. What is the name of the video game
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Dwight plays in Branch Wars.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: Uh, it's it's it's a it's a it's a spin
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: on Second Life. It might just be called Second Life.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna go with Second Life for three points.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Give me those three.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Starts playing, and he's like Dwight sells papers. It's just
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: it's exactly him, except you can fly. It's pretty solid difference.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Actually, it's just an office guy.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, Whitney, Oh god, what does Creed say he does
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: at dunder Mifflin.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: This is the best.
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: I have no help, that's true.
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: I guess on the Fly is three points. But there's
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: multiple choice options. I'll do multiple choice.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Quality assurance sales product to me inager or I don't.
• 40:01
  Speaker 7: Know, I don't know, correct, Yeah, Jacob, yes, Nick?
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Which actor? Oh this is I can't do that one.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: This is a multiple choice. It's it's I have to
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: give you the mm hmmm. Can you name an actor
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: from the show who was originally hired as a writer.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: I can half of them, yeah, a lot of them are.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: What what do you want? You want?
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: You can take a character name or actor.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Actor name, somebody who was hired as a writer. Oh
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: man originally a can I have options? Yes? Oh, okay,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: give me options then Mindy Kaling, Paul Lieberstein, BJ Novak
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: or all of the above. Oh, I think all of
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: the above. It is all of you. Okay, we'll go
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: one more, one more each, Jim, what is Angela's favorite
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: cat's name? Oh?
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: Ship?
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: I feel like I know it's like mister something.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: But give me options, yes, tell tests right in the microphone.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Good, Okay? Is it band it sprinkles, comstock or garbage?
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Give me sprinkles.
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: It is sprinkle your dummy one.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Garbage was a cat like.
• 41:41
  Speaker 6: The fire and she throw.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: That was banded banded? Okay, all right? Whitney In the
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Diversity Day seminar, which race does Michael writ on Pam's four?
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, I remember that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 6: It's I feel like it's either Jewish or Chinese anyway, Sorry,
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: I guess options.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Then Indian, Jewish, Italian or Asian.
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: No, I think it's Indian.
• 42:24
  Speaker 6: Ship I can't remember it's Indian or Jewish, you know,
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: for it PAMs like the card someone else is trying
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: to guess.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: After she guesses, Can I do the clues?
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: Yes, I think Nick, after she guesses, I.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: Think it's Indian. I don't know. I'm just gonna guess
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: it is not.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: She's like struggling. It's like, all right, so based on
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: your card, some people would unfairly say you're not good
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: at driving and Dight it's like a woman.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: Yes, I remember that.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: It was No, it was Italian, it wasn't Asian? Was Asian?
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Dwight was.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: I was afraid that his his uh the Dwites was
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: Asian and and based on that clue, he was afraid
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: that he was a woman.
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, I haven't seen the show.
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was like Jacob's putting up.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: A parse over there, Jacob I crushed the Disney trivia.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: Let yeah, let the record.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: What was the name of Jan's assistant at her corporate?
• 43:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I no, I'll know what if I hear it?
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Because he had he had the c D.
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: Y just watched this episode a week ago.
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: Whitney, you helped Jim help me? Oh, is it Are
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: you saying gunner that's close?
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Uh, it's somebody who uh she's holding up his deer
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: head a hunter.
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: Alright, you just like held up a gun and.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: Weird that you're packing heat in the podcasting.
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: My good.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I'll put it back, just mind and would have just.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: Question all right? Next question, not single, but wanting to
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: mingle from university?
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: All right, Nicol, fuck you?
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and pay very giving. I take the money
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: for Nick, though it's not much, it's reasonable covers modest.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Optional around.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: Anyway. Hello pot therapy friends, doctor Jacob, mister Jim Whitney,
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: and the other guy, Nathan. I think looking forward to
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: my interview with him. Eventually, I he that your reservoir
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: of questions is nearly empty, so I'm coming out of
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: my lurker hole to answer the call. Over the summer,
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: I started going on dates again, seeing where things went,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: and eventually having to make a choice to be exclusive
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: with one of two wonderful ladies. Not an easy decision
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: to make, and I likely hurt one of them when
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: I chose the other. I do not like knowing that
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: I likely caused a woman to cry into her pillow,
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: likely for several days after telling her I could not
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: see her anymore. In September, Bethany and I decided to
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: be exclusive, agreeing not to see anyone else and making
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: it Facebook official, calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend the
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: whole nine yards. Things have been all right overall. Bethany
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: and I went on some fun dates where we floated
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: the river, made dinner at her place, and the sex
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: is pretty good, if not a bit vanilla for me.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Tell us more about that. Yeah, I think we just
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: need to pause there now. I would like to appendix
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: a Whitney's porn theme music. It should be its own thing,
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: just the track. Yeah, Oh, that would be so great
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: if the show starts with just drops I hate so much.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I'm fine, I'm finally.
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: You're welcome a new intro.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: She and I have similar goals in life, wanting to
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: have a nice garden, being active in the community, having
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: hobbies we enjoy separately from each other as well as together.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: And she also wants to go into town or live
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: in the town where I hope to live long term.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: She works from home as an accountant, has her own
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: home in a town of about thirty about thirty minutes away,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: doesn't want kids, and decided to go back to school
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: to get her bachelor's degree because her work is going
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: to pay for it. She's attending the very university where
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: I work, albeit online. Quite the dream. Well, I'm very
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: happy with Bethany. I can't seem to stop fantasizing about
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: relationships with other women. Some of them are friends of
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: mine who I've played volleyball with for two years and
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: have had crushes on since I met them. Others I
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: just see around town. College towns are unfortunately full of
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: beautiful people in their early to mid twenties, and they're
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: all too young for me since I'm pushing forty Hey
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: fuck you. And some have even slid into my dms,
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: being very bold and pursuing me despite me saying that
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: I have a partner. The last kind of person has
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: really mangled up my feelings. I attribute this to never
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: feeling wanted in past relationships or were being pursued feels
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: so different than pursuing someone else. I don't think I've
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: ever really known what it feels like to be wanted
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: or desired in this way, as I've always felt like
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: I convinced people to date me rather than them wanting
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: me for who I am. That is likely some trauma
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: I need to work through.
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: This.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: Last person even shared some of the kinkier things she
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: wants to do with me, and they are things that
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: I'm really into. Q Whitney.
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: God.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: She reminds me of Stan's dad.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: Had on a Wednesday.
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: I do around my health.
• 48:24
  Speaker 6: I don't know the name of it, otherwise I'd probably
• 48:26
  Speaker 6: know the words.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: It's a porn anthem number twelve.
• 48:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that was from all the porn I've been
• 48:32
  Speaker 6: watching it.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: I have a feeling that some of this comes from
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: me being single for so long and chasing after a
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: partner as being single for so long caused the shift
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: in my brain. I am the proverbial dog that caught
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: the car, not knowing what to do next. Does the
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: desire for other people make me just a regular human
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: or do I need to find a way to suppress
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: these feelings. For lack of a better word, any advice
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: and help would be very welcome. Thanks University, Jeff.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: No, you're regularly You're fine.
• 49:03
  Speaker 5: Next question done? Easy?
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like this is normal, relatable.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wrote this.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Leave the room doesn't when we start the music? Nick
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: turned on the lights?
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Whatever I mean? You guys, I mean those those of
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: you who know me know my scoop name is slightly
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: slutty scoop. But oh yeah that so yeah, I've had
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: my BA. But the relationship thing of always wondering if
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: you've tricked people into a relationship with you. Wow, I
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: was like, did I write?
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: Well? I think that's such a profound part of this
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: letter that I think a lot of people do really
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: relate to, Like this is something I hear all the time,
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: and I think, you know a lot of men especially
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: will share that that is really profound for them. And
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: when I've seen there be affairs or challenges to relationships
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: where the man has sort of been tempted, you know,
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: to the side. A lot of times I'll see the
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: female partner and they're very confused about it, like I
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: don't get it, like where did this develop?
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: What?
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: What was the key thing? And sometimes the guy is
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: really baffled too, and it's like I don't even know
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: what it is. But when we drill into it therapeutically,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: a lot of times that we discover is somebody just
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: really liked you and pursued you and desired you, and
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: that is really unfamiliar to you. And you know, I've
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: seen all these different studies on like what is attractive,
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: and one of the things that seems to float to
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: the top on the psychological scales just desiring me. If
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: you just are really into me, and like you're convinced
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: of it, and you know why I need You're fascinating
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden, right because there's not a lot
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: of you, and like you're the one who's really into me,
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: and like that suddenly makes you so much more attractive
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: and you stand out and now like I'm obsessed with you.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: Why can't I stop thinking about you? And like I
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: can appreciate for Jeff, that that is a very relatable thing.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: You see that in therapy a lot, especially in couples
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: therapy and a fair recovery, and I.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Can relate to that. I remember just like even in
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: high school, like and here a rumor that some girl
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: liked me, right, and I was never the son is like,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: oh wow, yeah, she's beautiful, period and then has her
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: name on his body. And then then I find out
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: that No is the other nick and then it's more.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, man, my heart breaks for you. That happened
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: to me. There was another Jimmy in third grade, that
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: son of a bitch. All the girls liked him, and
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: I'd always be waiting as they always talk, oh Jimmy, this,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: you'd be like, please be me for once. It's never
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: me because he was fast. He was so fast, and
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: it was so important in third grade to be fast.
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: That's true, so fast true.
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: I mean it's still kind of important, especially if something's
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: chasing you.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: It's third grade.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: It's important to be fast because you're less likely to
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: caught and quick sand that's it.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: It's very common.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very scary, but I mean I can I can
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: relate to that too, Like like just when I got
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: divorced and I was single for the first.
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: Point, you're like flipping yeah.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Because it's like you know, I I I always I
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: had very low self esteem. I always thought I was
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: there about to say standards. No. I always felt like
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: I was the reacher in that relationship. I felt like
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: she was the settler. And then so then when that
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: marriage ended, then I just very low confidence. And then
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: when you find out that like, oh no, some women
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: are attracted to a guy with a face like this, then.
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: It's like this is not just another drink.
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: People so many near sighted people out there.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: But no, that really is a thing. And I think,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: you know, not to get too into the gender stereotypes again,
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: but like for a lot of men, they're not used
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: to hearing compliments. They're not used to hearing many people
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: be kind and so whenever, like for Jeff, you suddenly
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: open up your DMS and somebody's like you are great,
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: and it's like thank you. That doesn't happen very often,
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: Like okay, you're not getting the hint I want to
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: do dirty things to you. And that's like that doesn't
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: happen a lot. It's like okay, but no, but wow,
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: thank you.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: It happened to me last week. I was like cloud night.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: I was sitting in a bar with a with a
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: friend in a casino, so like like a casino bar
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: in oh in the Cosmo and the Cosmopolitan and friends
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: were in town and we were sitting there and like
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: me and me and my buddy, we're just sitting there
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: at the bench, we're chatting, we're not paying attention to
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: anybody else, and this woman walks over and hands me
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: a business card and goes Apparently there was a big
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: tech convention or something that was there, and so they
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: were all like at this bar, and so a woman
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: comes over and hands me a business business card and
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: it's like my co worker wanted me to come hand
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: this to you.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Have a good night, but give her a call. No.
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: I was like, I'm good for the year.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Not to be a pyramid scheme though, because just like,
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: have you ever wanted to be your own boss?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: That'd be I just called the number. Can your steak
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: knives cut through a rope? One?
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: Try, one run, try coming up to room for twenty
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: eight tomatoes. You could just be your own boss as
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: you want.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: So, for Jeff, is the idea here that like he
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: should kind of filter through that and like really kind
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: of look at are you interested in this person or
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: you're just interested in the idea of being Yeah?
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: Does it just feel good to be attractive? Like feel
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: good to be attractive and have people be like, hey,
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: that person's attractive.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: Well, I kind of look at it like this, Jeff,
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: So I think the dilemma you're facing. And it sounds
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: like you've and you've also been a friend of the
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: show for a long time, and you've you've also given
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: us some great letters about your dating life and about
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: some of the ups and downs you've had. So we've
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: kind of been eating popcorn and watching your romantic life
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: now for a long time.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Which are you going to pass the box of chocolates? Yeah?
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: Oh sorry, buddy, let me get.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Those over too.
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: I was wondering, like an eat any of you brought them?
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: But you know, Jeff, I appreciate your question because the
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: way I read it, given your historical context and relationships,
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: I think you're very legitimately saying, look, I have I'm
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: in a great relationship. I made a decision for this.
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: She's my dream girl, as you kind of outline. But
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: you're you're expressing this sense of sincere confusion because you're saying, well,
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: if that's all true, why am I, you know, so
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: quickly tempted. Why am I being made to feel my
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: heart fluttering whenever there's somebody you know interested in me?
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: And I just I guess I want to look at
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: that with you, Jeff, and I want to one agree
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: with everybody else and normalize that the heart flutter thing
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: is so common and so relatable and because of that
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: we need to be really mindful not to follow that
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: away from what is on paper and in a felt way,
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: a really good thing, and the comparison that I would
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: give you here, just off the top of my head,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: would be like a job. Like you're interviewing, you're trying
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: to find a good job. You finally like, get down
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: to some good options. You land on one. You get
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: into this job, and you're doing great at it, and
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: you're like, wow, this is great, it's a great fit.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: Everything's cool. But then a recruiter calls you and they're like, hey,
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: we have got our eye on you, Jeff, You're the man.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: We would love to have you over here. And it's
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: so flattering to hear that. But then if you do
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: switch teams again one, if that becomes your life philosophy
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: of constantly taking the next bidder, you're always going to
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: enjoy the high of being flattered. You're never going to
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: enjoy the satisfaction of real, genuine, long term connection. To
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: get to those levels that are deeper in a relationship, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: it takes longevity, it takes commitment, and so you're always
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: going to be going to the next one, the next one,
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: the next one. And I just think that at some
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: point you're going to have to really say this is
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: a great choice. I need to stick to this in
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: order to access the better things that that are very
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: rare to access in a relationship that I think come
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: with being in one long term. So if I'm hearing
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: you say, look, my relationship is great, I'm feeling my
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: heart flutter being talked to like this, and it makes
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: me emotionally confused. Should I trust the flutter versus the
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: fact of my relationship? I vote fact. I say stick
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: to this relationship. You used to describe it in glowing terms. Yeah,
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: you've been through a lot of relationship shopping, Jeff. We've
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: been hanging in there with you for a long time,
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: and I'm so happy that you found somebody because you
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: deserve to be happy, buddy. And I think that this
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: sounds like a great relationship. I'd hate to see a
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: walk away from somebody. It slipped into your DMS.
• 57:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that was a little bit thingle I was going
• 57:36
  Speaker 6: to go out almost like gratitude, you know, just appreciating
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: and recognizing and remembering all the things you do have
• 57:43
  Speaker 6: in this relationship. Sometimes that can win out over that
• 57:46
  Speaker 6: exciting new little dopamine spike you get when it's like, oh,
• 57:49
  Speaker 6: someone flattered me or flirted with me. Absolutely. That feels great.
• 57:55
  Speaker 6: I don't know if you can with your partner go
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: home and tell them that this was really fun today.
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: Someone flattered me and it made me really excited. I
• 58:03
  Speaker 6: do that with Peter.
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: Someone hit on me at the bar. I'm like, he's
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: like okay, I'm like yeah, like Amy Adams again, yeah,
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: exactly was there.
• 58:15
  Speaker 7: I'm like, hey, this is my friend, Peter.
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: I have friends. I just met him a few minutes ago.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: Get out of it.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Goes the other way. Are you like that, bitch?
• 58:26
  Speaker 6: No, I am so flattered. When someone flirts with my husband,
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: I'm like, hell, yeah, okay, he's a piece.
• 58:33
  Speaker 5: He's a dime, Jeff.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: These people are idiots.
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: Every piece of advice you've gotten thus far, Jeff, ignore
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: it completely. It's a fun life to just be pursued
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: all the time. That's a good time.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: Wait.
• 58:49
  Speaker 6: I didn't say, don't be.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: Wait, just go out there and roll this be the
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: rolling stone. But I think there's something legitimate to this,
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: like and I understand this. The grass greener mentality is
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: always going to be there, especially when Jeff's like, look,
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: our sex life is kind of vanilla. And then it's
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: tough because when a person shows up offering the one
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: thing you're missing. This is tricky, and in couple's therapy,
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: this is something we talk about a lot. Is like
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: needs inventories, where we try to get people to understand
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: like just like human needs, like you need air, water,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: you know, food, If you take away any one of
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: those for too long, it starts to threaten your health, right,
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: And it's like you can't fix hunger with more air,
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: right or more water, Like the food needs to be
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: provided at some point. And so sometimes in relationships this
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: can happen where there's a need and we're not truly
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: seeing it as a need. We're just thinking that it's like, oh,
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: well that would be nice, but no big deal. But
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: then too much time goes by with that need being unaddressed,
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: and then what we say in couple's therapy is the
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: relationship becomes vulnerable to an external influence, right, And so
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: like that's where I think, you know, Jeff, at this
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: point in your relationship, if you're finding that you're so
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: easily tempted by somebody who's saying, hey, I will you know,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: put on a ski mask and hit you like a pinata,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: then you need to be able to go to your
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: woman and say say it again.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: But you.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: Know I have the internet.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: You know there it is.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: It sounds like you nail it.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you just that's the entire soundtrack. It depends
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: on what you're in the mood for. I guess, but no,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: I mean I would want you to to sit with
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: your partner and not necessarily say hey, there's other people
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: out there they want me, which, again, as much as
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: Whitney I think is presenting this idea of like, oh yeah,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: girls don't care. Uh Whitney's the outlier. Uh not every
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: woman can handle finding out that, like your dude is
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: being flirted with.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 6: I am realizing that I should put also.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: Because men often don't know how to express it. Like
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: if we say, oh, this girl flirted with me, it
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: kind of sounds like I'm threatening you. It kind of
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: sounds like like, oh, just by the way, somebody hit
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: me up and said I.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: Was like threatening.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: I've seen that happen where it's.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: Like whatever Jim tells his wife about a woman that
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: flirted with him is holding a bat. Yeah, but no,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: I get there are situations maybe have our son beat
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: you up.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: Where somebody will tell their partner man or woman, oh
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: I got flirted with today, and the subtext to that
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: is people are into me just so you.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: Know the values because the underlying.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: Tone, right, it's always, in my opinion, it is of
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: all the spectrum of relationships. I think it's a rarer
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: minority of relationships that have that extra security or some
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: kind of special ingredient that they really genuinely do not
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: feel threatened at all and they don't take it in
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: any kind of way. I think the majority or on
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: a spectrum where to some extent it feels threatening or
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: there's a subtext or a message to it, and so
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: that that gets tricky, Jeff, because I wouldn't want you
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: to come up to your your partner and say, hey,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: just so you know, somebody offered me butt stuff and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: we should talk about how I realize the lot butt
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: stuff like. That's not the way I want you to
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: have a conversation problem. But if you notice this is
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: how you're feeling, I want you to sit down with
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: your partner and say, hey, I just want to keep
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: talking about how to grow right. I want to keep
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: talking about I don't want to believe that this relationship
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: has landed at its eternal state. I want us to
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: be a couple that's getting to know each other and
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: meeting each other's needs as we're changing, and I want
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: to talk more about some areas of me and my
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: desires that maybe I haven't really talked about before, or
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: maybe in the past I've gotten the signal that maybe
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: you're not very interested in and I want to make
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: sure that there's space to talk about that.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I do feel like Peter and I have grown
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: to that place.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: We've bummed together, yeah, for seventeen years or something crazy.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 6: So Yeah, if you're new in a relationship, I don't
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 6: really recommend just going and telling people, yeah, this person
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 6: flirted with me, or I want to do the butt
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 6: stuff that you mentioned you liked anyway.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: Although I do want more examples of kinky sex from Jim, Yeah,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: because so far we've had butt stuff and suspension rig
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: with like a pigiata.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, examples thus.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 5: Far, very experienced.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very important that you also have the fanny
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: pack of candy that you toss uncertain hits, but not
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: all of them. You gotta make them earn it.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah, but I think that chipped right.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Out of the book, Jim. I thought I thought it
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: was gonna be a fanny pack of candy.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: That's the name of zotobioga, the chapter in the sutra.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: That's just a tip in the sushi.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 6: But I think that you get to a point where
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 6: you can be really open with your partner and trusting
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 6: by having those conversations you mentioned, not the butt stuff
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 6: one but you know, no, but talking about.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: Like hey, although don't do that without having a conversation, yeah,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: talk about Yeah.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: That's good. That's good coaching, advice.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: And more.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: Loube you think also random tool that you can use
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: tools seems to be an intimidating word assessment, intimidating Jim's assessment.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: There's several websites, but one of them is called Mojo Upgrade,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: and I've referenced it years ago on the show. But
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: it's really good for couples if they're ever saying I
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: think I want to explore kind of what our sexual
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: interests are, but I'm shy or I don't. I'm scared
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: that I'm going to tell you I'm into something and
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: then you're going to hear that and have a moral
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: opinion about that, or a character opinion is going to
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: change what you feel about me. Mojo Upgrade is a
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: neat way that you and your partner can indicate anonymously
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: on this this one form, here's what I'm in. It's
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: a really neat one. Individually, it's been years. You do
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: it individually and and there's like a link that's shared
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: between you, and then it reveals only the results that
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: you had in common. And so if one person said, hell, yeah,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: let's do the pinata thing and the other one said,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: I would never do the pinata thing, you're synthesized pick no,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: you can pick I would do it if my partner
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: was into it. You can pick yes, I'd like to,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: and then there's like a hell yes, and so it'll
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: show you everything.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 5: That agree then yes.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: And so like if you say I would only do
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: this if my partners into it, and the other person
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: says I would only do this my partner is into it,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: it will not show up on the result because it
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: can tell nobody wanted to advocate for gotcha. But if
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: there's anybody that's you know, an agreed.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: If somebody's advocating for it, and somebody says I would
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: I partners into it, so that don't pop.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: Up, but it won't tell you who said what gotcha?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: So you won't even know how into it your partner was.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: It will just show up as the these things are
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: on the menu if you guys would like to talk
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: about it, and that way, if there was something on
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: there that you, you know, were embarrassed by or you
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: were nervous about, it doesn't show up. So that Jeff
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: can be a way to you know, continue to grow
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: this relationship. But that would be my advice to you.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: If you're feeling kind of itchy, lean in first, you know,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: and see if we can find a way to expand
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: the relationship. Maybe she's cool with meeting all these girls
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: that are dming. Maybe we can bring that into the relationship.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: You don't know till you ask what doest thing about this?
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: Again? These are really questions that are hitting home for me.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: We right, sorry, they just recently, like have had some
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: conversations about that sort of similar thing of like opening
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: up about different things you'd be interested in sexually. Sorry, honey,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: it's okay.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: Therapy.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: I legitimately warned him before he came. It's like put
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: me on Mike. I might say stuff that embarrassed, but
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: you know, I wish we had had that conversation sooner.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: So I think it is a really important conversation to
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: have because when we had that conversation, I literally we
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: literally I think I think I said to you, I
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: was like, why didn't you tell me this before? Because
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: I'm down enjoying this longer exactly, you know, and and
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: you know, he Jeff says that, you know, sex is
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: kind of vanilla, but that she could be shy. She
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: may maybe thinks she's going to intimidate him and doesn't
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: want to bring it up.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 5: You never know, are going good.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: Reason? You know?
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because yeah, I mean, you're not gonna depending on
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: what kind of community you're in, you're not going to
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: be breaking out the pata on day one. You're not
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: going to break that out on date number one, not
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: with that attitude. Depend depending on the people that you.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: Mean making a loan for just take that down and
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: put it up any time you want that.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: They kind of have to have a separate room for it.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: And Vegas is a union town, so you're paying exact
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: failing wage. I mean, osha, so many pieces.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's a It's an important conversation to have
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: because it really could it could be that maybe it
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: is something that's negotiable, maybe it's not, and then and
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: then if if it's not, then that's something that you
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: have to look at. Sure, is it something that you
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: are just sort of like, well, yeah, can I.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: Live without Iteah?
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: But I really like the idea of addressing the relationship first.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: I think if again, we want to normalize that what
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: you're feeling is real and it's not, it doesn't necessarily
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: imply that you're maybe like not a good relationship person.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: That's way too much of a conclusion to judge from this.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: It is so flattering, it's so exciting being desired. Is
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: the number one most attractive trait that another person can
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: have is just they like you? That is everything. So
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: I just think, yeah.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: I develop pressius like all the time.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: Okay all the time. And somebody opens the door for
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: you at the bank and you're like, yeah, I have
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: so nice to meet you.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I fall fast and hard. I definitely have
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: crushes all the time. Do I act on them?
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: But there's a that you can feel that energy? Oh yeah,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: But I like that point test because knowing yourself is
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: very vital. And if this is something Jeff needs to
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: learn about himself and realize, Okay, I get butterflies fast.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: That's something I know about me. And as Jeff said,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: that could be based on my past, that could based
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: on trauma, that could based on internal needs I have.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: Don't always trust that to the point of action. Just
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: acknowledge it and feel it. That's huge too, and then
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: that's not controlling your life anyway. Jeff, good luck with
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: the pinata butt stuff. We're excited for it. Look for
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: my upcoming combination. Yeah, you know, I mix the peanut
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: butter with the chocolate. Man, you don't know what you're
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: gonna get. Exciting stuff. We're gonna take what it looks like.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: I'm just excited for all the people going, for all
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: the people that just started listening to the show after
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: like you know, finding out about us on another podcast,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: and that's happening after this one, right, No, they've heard
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: the interview and then come to this episode. Everybody, Yeah, fun,
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: we're talking about your therapist being in another state. You're
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: listening to Pop Therapy.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Judi Schneider, Leon Tisa,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: Carolyn Albert, Sammy Scoom, Sarah Smith, Mike Helm, Jaron Cunningham,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: Matt and Lisa, Tanjaman, and Cody the DeLorean Guy. If
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: you would like to sponsor the show, become a therap
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: producer patreon dot com slash therapy area. Do it okay,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: Jim from the Office, what is the title of Michael's movie?
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: Oh shit?
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: Oh my god? Oh no, oh okay? Oh oh zero zero?
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: Is it zero dark thirty? Oh shit? Oh don't something
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: midnight dark midnight? Midnight zero dark midnight. Oh it's something
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: like that. Give me the options. God damn it, be
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: so pissed on the two.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Yep, you're gonna have one because a threat level midnight.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Do you need to hear? The rest of them were
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: done one of the others Agent Scarn, Danger Express, Saber
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: Wars Good.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: I'm glad none of the others were better.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Whitney, what is Stanley's favorite day at work?
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: Favorite day at once? Why do you know I need options?
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: Pretzel day, payday, casual, Friday, Christmas party, Pretzel Day. Definitely pretzel. Yeah.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 6: See these are I'm like, I've watched the Office enough.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 6: I feel like once I have the options, I'm like,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 6: oh yeah, except for the Pam and I didn't know
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 6: it's so funny.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: All right, Jacob, come on?
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: What song?
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: Had to get a question our options on.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: What song does Andy sing during his Cornell Admissions interview?
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, Ship, there's a lot of those songs that
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: he sings.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know what are the options? Faith by George Michael,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: Drift Away by Dobie Gray, closer to fine By Indigo Girls,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: or take Me Home, Country Roads by John oh Ship.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: It might be that one. I think he sings all
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: of these. It definitely does.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: He definitely does Faith.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: Because Stephen Colbert was in that.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Roly, Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go Denver.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna go John Denver.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: It was closer to fine By Indigo.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't have gotten Jim.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: Where does Jim propose to Pam?
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: Oh shit? I but I want to go on, all right,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take a shot on it if I
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: get the options that just entus the Piniata scene. I
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: think it's in the rain.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: On.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: I think it's like a street or a sidewalk or
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: getting out of a car, or like about to get
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: out of car. But I feel like I'm going to
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: need to be more specific. If I just say in
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: the rain in a city, I think that they're like
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: doing the commuting back and forth thing where New York
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: in Philly or wherever she lives or fuck? Give me options,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: because I guess I need to figure out how it's phrased.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: At dunder Mifflin at Pam's art show at a gas
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: station in New York City.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: Thank you, witness, you can help, she cannot help herself.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: Good point, Jim, I'll take.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: For infinity points.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Okay. Finally, Whitney, how great would be?
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: Though he was just beeding Jim?
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 5: Next time?
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: All right? What did Pam's fiance Roy leave at Poor
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Richard's pub? Causing a scene?
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 5: I have no clue. What are the options?
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: His wallet, his coat, his cell phone, his engagement.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: Ring, his engagement ring?
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: Scene?
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 6: But no, because they were already engaged.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: At the bar, which was like, why was it off?
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 5: Oh but it was her ring? No, it's he had
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 5: an engagement, don't.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 6: I can't trust jo I'm going to say engagement because
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 6: Jim's winking I engagement his wallet?
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: Remember it was an early one?
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, why would that cause an issue?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: To go back and watch it?
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: By the way, we used to watch The Office uh
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: on just like ginging before well before you could binge
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: on the streaming stuff. We had the DVD players on
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: the on the bus and everything, and you know, we
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 4: would just burn through the Office.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Netflix when they did the DVC send out.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so I watched uh the Office from Paris
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: to Boston, Logan, That's what this is. And I'll tell
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: you what I wondered why this popped up. That flight
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: felt like it was thirty minutes it went by, so Fried,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: all right, what is the name of the janitor Dwight
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: be friends at in the episode the Alliance? The name
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: of the janitor Dwight? That's the janitor at dunder Befflin.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: Right, there really isn't one. There's a security.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 5: Guard, the security guards who I'm thinking of to.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: Take the options, all right, give me the options, Hank.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: That's it, Lonnie, security guards, the security guard.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 5: It is it is not yeah, so keep going.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: Hank, Lonnie, Glenn Todd. I don't remember the alliance apparently.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, I do remember this. No wait, no,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 5: I don't remember any janitor.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: So what is it, Glenn? Oh all right, I don't
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: remember this episode. That's a good question, Nick.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: The last question for the show, therapist is in another state?
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: From anonymous. In the past, you've talked a bit about
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: how most therapists are licensed for the state they're working in,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: or maybe have licenses in multiple states and can work
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: in any of the states they are licensed in. From
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: your show, I understand that taking clients out of state
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: could be a problem because it leads to issues like
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: which licensing board a patient can or should go to
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: if they needed to report an ethical problem. I know
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: someone who was visiting from out of state. Their therapist
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: said they were not supposed to practice if the patient
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: left the state. But if it was a any video session,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: if it was a short trip, any video therapy session,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: maybe you could just be in a different room that
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: I haven't seen yet, letting the patient know what the
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: rules are, implying what sort of lie of omission the
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: patient would need to commit to in order to obtain therapy.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: It doesn't seem right, but if only done occasionally, there's
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: probably no real harm. I just started working with a
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: new therapist from a new practice in my town through
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: video conference sessions. It's hard nowadays to find anyone doing
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: face to face sessions. It seems at the end they
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: gave me her office phone and to send text messages
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: if I needed to get in touch with her. Then
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: they commented that they are in the Central time Zone.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: The closest towns in the Central time Zone are nearly
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: one thousand miles from me. They assured me that they
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 3: were licensed in my state and love all of their
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: patients from my state, but they've moved elsewhere. So are
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: the rules for which state the therapy occurs set in the
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: state the patient is in the state? Or is it
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: the state that the doctor is in or a therapist.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: There seems like there is a philosophical argument about where
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: the therapy occurs. Is it what the therapist says or
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: hears or what the patient sees, hears and things? Any
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: issues can be brought to my state's board for all
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: the combinations where the therapist is licensed, where the therapist resides,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: and where the patient resides. Which combinations are allowed or not?
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: Thanks Anonymous, this is.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 5: A fun one.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 6: I'm licensed in two states, So what's the other state? Oregon?
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: Your mom ah delirium, So why'd you get the second license?
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: Actually, the insurance company, the evil dark insurance company I
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 6: worked for, they were having trouble hiring people in Oregon
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 6: because of what you can do in Oregon with your licensure,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 6: there's no motivation to work at the insurance company. Or
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 6: I think what was happening was you don't need a
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 6: clinical license to be a therapist there, so people like
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 6: don't go get their clinical license. So the insurance company
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 6: I worked for is like a national company and have
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 6: they cover insurances in all different states, almost every single state,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 6: And so they were looking for a licensed clinical like
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 6: social work or whatever. But because an organ so few
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 6: people are licensed, they just couldn't find people.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: And in social work in particular, every once in a
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: while there's a state that's like if you're just a
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: social worker of any strike, you can do all the things.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 3: The scope is the same, and so there's no incentive
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: to go on.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, or you could be like a license master's levels
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 6: social but you don't have a clinical license.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: It's like kind of sometimes it doesn't matter. It's like, yeah,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: if anyone.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: Who lives in an organ knows exactly, you can definitely
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 6: chime in there. But that was my understanding at the
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 6: time we put out you know, uh, feelers for people
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 6: to come work there and do utilization reviews or whatever,
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 6: but very few people would apply. Like, does anyone want
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 6: to get licensed in Oregon? We'll pay for your licensure,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 6: which was like five hundred bucks. I was like yes,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 6: And I was already planning on going into private practice,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 6: so I was like, I will use this as opening
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 6: up more options for clients now. So knowing that, it's
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 6: always interesting because I've thought about moving out of Nevada
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 6: many different times. And something that I've thought about is
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 6: my clients can't live in a state that I'm not
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 6: licensed in, but I can go anywhere, right, I can
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 6: go to California, I can go live in New York,
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 6: I can go live in Australia, which is something we've
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 6: talked about.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: When you're moving to Canada.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 5: Oh well yeah, so tonight this is going to be important.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 5: Good thing they asked this question because I.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: Will still be on goat delivery tests.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, have a car seat, because she still rides in seats.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: Hear the goat. We have one of those seat belt
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: harnesses for the dog.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: Who you want to pull over a couple of hours,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: let her walk around.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 6: I need to pee, So yeah, I've had this, so
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 6: I can go live anywhere. I can go live in
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 6: Canada with Tess Dustin and be like totally cool. So yeah,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 6: but my client cannot. They have to be residing in
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 6: Oregon or Nevada.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, And and this I love this question because it
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: is a philosophical debate because this question is, now that
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: we've entered the telehealth era, what is what is happening? Like,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: how is healthcare occurring? And I've heard some people say, look,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: if a patient wants to see me in Nevada and
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: they live in pick your state, Minnesota, if they choose
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: to wire in to access me in Nevada, they are
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: telecommuting to me. They are if they if they have
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: cancer and they want to go to the Mayo Clinic
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: in Arizona, they can get in a car and drive
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 3: to Arizona and seek care. And there's lots of Novadams
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: who go to Arizona or go to UCLA in California,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: and like, their right to seek their health care from
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: providers of their choosing is so inherent that it doesn't
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: matter where they live. They won't be turned away from
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: UCLA because they get their mail in Las Vegas. Like
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: you're a sick person, you've shown up to us, will
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: help you now. And so there's a philosophical argument of
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: by the same right, if you're a sick person and
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: you want this therapist in this state, nobody should be
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 3: able to tell you can't telecommute to them to go
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: see them. But arguably that's not how the laws are written. Like, philosophically,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: that's an idea, but arguably, at least Nevada. Nevada is
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: one of the only states I know that has taken
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: the time to write out a telehealth policy for mental health.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: And our policy, as I understand it, basically says, in
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: the views of Nevada law, the patient is our jurisdiction.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: So you need to be licensed here to treat our
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: patients here. But if you are a better health provider
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 3: and you live in Arizona and you're not licensed to
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: Nevada and you're trying to teach it, or you're trying
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: to treat a Nevada patient, you are running a foul
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: of Nevada's laws, and now there may be Nevada consequences
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: for him. So that's interesting, right, because then it's saying
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: that the patient is where the healthcare exists.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I actually kind of like that because to me,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: that I think is kind of the function of the board.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people get this wrong,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: that a lot of clinicians think that the board is
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: there to represent them. No, it's not. The board is
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: there to protect the people of the state. Yeah, the public,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: the people who are receiving the services. Yeah. So it
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: makes sense that way, yes.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: And so it's interesting because I think the writer's asking
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: that good question because in this scenario, the writer has
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: a group, has a therapist, they see the therapist is
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: now letting them know, hey, we're in a different time zone.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: And you know, writer did the math and realized then
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: you'd have to be one thousand miles away. You've definitely
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: changed jurisdictions. And so there's an interesting question of that too.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: And writer, this gets actually into two other levels, which
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: I appreciate your question because I think you invited complexity.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 3: So one of them is continuity of care. So whenever
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: we're balancing the pros and cons of treating somebody, especially
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: whenever they're traveling around, we run up against another unique challenge,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: which is called disruption of care. So this is something
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: that I philosophically have to think about because my practice
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: is entirely telehealth, and I have patients that work that
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 3: live in Nevada, and then they will jump on a
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: flight because they're a salesperson, and they'll go to another
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: state and they'll be in another state, and then they're
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 3: wiring into their session with me. I have no problem
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 3: treating them. And the reason why is because if I
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: were their primary physician and they called in for a
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: renewal of their allergy meds or their antibiotics, I'm not going, well,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: where are you right now? No, we have established your
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: care with my office. I am the provider of record
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 3: and I am interested in helping you whenever I can,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: and we have this ability to do telehealth, and we're
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 3: going to do that, and I'm prepared fully to defend myself.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: I don't think it, but Nevada also has language in
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: our in our code about telehealth about not disrupting continuity
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 3: of care. So they don't care if your person works
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: at state line and it's like, oh, well, I crossed
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: the border because the WiFi is better at the Starbucks
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 3: over her dam or something. Right, Yeah, so now what
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: am I violating the law? And I think most of
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: us would say, well, no, if you have an established
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 3: patient and they're they're traveling, we don't want to disrupt care.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: In this writer's situation, it's confusing because the provider left,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: but the provider still licensed in your state. Yeah, and
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: so I don't have a problem with that.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 6: That's my thing. This sounds totally legit in my opinion.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 6: They have other like there's a clinician in our practice
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 6: she grew up in Nevada, got married, moved to like
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 6: North Carolina, and still sees Nevada client.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 5: I have no problem with that North Carolina.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: As long as she maintains her licensing good standing in Nevada.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: And then there's all these additional things about what is
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: safe and good practices, because like there's this upcoming legislation
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: that may allow me to suddenly be licensed in like
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: thirty eight states, and like if that happens, that doesn't
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: just mean I'm going to start picking up sessions in Pennsylvania.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: And it would be unethical to do that because if
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: I have a patient who calls me from Pennsylvanian says,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: would you treat me? Maybe, but like we need to
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 3: go over safety planning. You need to make sure that
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: I'm the right level of care for you across such
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: a distance. Yes, you know, there's a lot of pieces
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: to this, so there's there's definitely like a propriety question
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: of like what is right. But if you're already established
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 3: with the provider, the provider jumps across state lines, they're
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: still licensed in good standing in your state, and they're
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: trying not to disrupt continuity of care, checks all the
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: green boxes. For me, I'm not upset about that.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: This is a separate thing than the super board, right.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is separate than the super board. This is
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: the counseling compact. Okay, yeah, the Superboard is what Arizona has,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: which is instead of having an LS Social Workers Board,
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: Alcohol and Drug Counseling Board MFT board, they have one
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: Behavioral Health Provider's Board. And the board is made up
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: of all the disciplines and they still have separate licenses,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: but one board governs all that does all the background checks,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: collects all the fees, all the idea. You don't like that.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: I do not like that at all.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: Because you lose discipline sovereignty.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's one. And then now you've got people
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: who they're working, they're on a board outside of their
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: area of expertise. Two three. There's something fishy with the
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: money with that because right now, the money that goes
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: to each of those boards can't be touched by the government,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: So the state can't go in and and like redistribute
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: any of those funds because it's their money that comes
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: through them. Oh, when you create a super board, now
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: that becomes part of the government, and now the government
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: can take that and like, you have too much, I'm
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: going to reall money here. Yeah.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: Oh interesting, it's it's real fucked up. Okay, yeah, good note.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 3: I think before you just said all that, if somebody
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: said do you think a super board's a good idea,
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: I probably have said, yeah, it sound efficient bad. I
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: do agree with you that I'd get itchy about not
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: governing our own disciplines because I actually believe in that,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 3: Like I think the marriage and family therapists need to
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: watch their own because the way they think about a case.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: It's not proper for like a social worker to decide
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: whether they conceived of the case correctly because the systems
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: approach will inherently look different, and that doesn't mean they
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: were wrong. And I like that, because then they know
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 3: this is the best practices of our tradition and you're
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: outside of it. We're not cool with this. You should
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: be punished or whatever.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: But super board is efficient, my man. It's nice to
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: just write one check.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it'll have half of the resources that
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: it currently has.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 6: So basically, the client has to be in the state
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 6: that the clinician is licensed.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: Licensed in, yeah, so that the client and the state
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: of record should be the same.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 6: So you could ask any listener out there if you
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 6: start seeing a therapist, just what is your licensing number?
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 6: That should be displayed either behind them, you know, in
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 6: their little virtual.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 5: Office or I've got a partition.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 6: But you can also usually like my email has my
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 6: licensing number and you can look up our names.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: You can verify a license easily on yeah. Yeah. Right.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: It's interesting though, we can't verify a PhD though, as
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: it turns it turns out you can just say you
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: have one of those.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 3: Really lose it in a bet.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: But like an interesting point too about telehealth is like
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: I've definitely had people over time back whenever I was
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: very fluid about the idea of telehealth across state lines
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 3: because I wasn't very protective about it. I have people
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: that reach out from other states, and I'd say, okay, great,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: we're going to scope our work into what I consider
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 3: to be a life coaching scope, and if it ever
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 3: bleeds out of that realm, which we clearly have defined
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: together what that looks like, then I need you to
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 3: agree with me that we're going to provide other care
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 3: and you're going to get something local. But depending upon
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 3: what you're looking for, I could be a good fit.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 3: So you'll have somebody that says, I really want to
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: just like career thinking, you know, I just want to
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: think about like my job and like my confidence at
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: my job and talk through stuff because I think it's
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 3: like okay. And so back in the day, you used
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 3: to be pretty comfortable with that or like people come
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: to you, like for relationship stuff or just basic stuff
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 3: that was like subclinical, and I was comfortable with that.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 3: But then over time I started to like tighten up
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: on that a little bit and say, you know what,
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: I'm not taking any new people from out of state,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: Like if if I'm already established with somebody, then I
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: don't want to, you know, discontinue care but for the
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: most part just like sticking to the state. But a
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: lot of it's because like you just never know if
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: somebody's going to elevate, you know, and like you just
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: really make sure that you're taking care of them as
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: best you can, they're getting the best resources.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's a brave new world that we live in,
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: you know. But I do like Jake Wiskirshen, our friend
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: up North, he really argues passionately for this argument that
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: one of the ethical code components is autonomy, right, the
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: autonomy of the patient, respect the patient's choice, you know,
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: just to sign them a therapist and say he's the
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: only one you can ever have. If it's a bad fit,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 3: they get to tell you no, and they get to
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: get something else right, and like they get to decide
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 3: the treatment plan and things like that. Like autonomy is
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 3: really important, and Jake argues it is a respect of
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 3: autonomy to let a human being decide where they will
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: fulfill their health care needs and to tell them no,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: there's an arbitrary border designed in the eighteen hundreds here
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 3: that stops you from activating what you need for your
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 3: health is dangerous And so you know, he's pretty libertarian
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 3: about it, but like, I appreciate the passion of that argument,
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: but I also kind of appreciate I like to have authority,
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: I like to have accountability, and so I want those
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: two things to coexist, which is where like the counseling
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: Compact may come in, because it still makes you answerable
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: to a state's board, but it doesn't say no to
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: patients looking to cross state lines to get help.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 6: I think I like your idea of implementing something in
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 6: those scenarios where someone from another state or far away
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 6: other time zones are seeking help from you. I like
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 6: the idea of there being some sort of verbiage about
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 6: or guide guideline. I guess about what that should look like,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 6: like what kind of client, Because yes, there's autonomy, but
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 6: even people who are very distressed and suicidal still have autonomy.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: But it's like there's well, I mean, autonomy is not
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: the same as is appropriate level of care, right because
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 3: I could just say, hey, look, I've had I had
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: a really bad weekend. I drink a lot. It's the
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 3: first time I ever got drunk. I want to go
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: to rehab, h respect my personal autonomy, and put me
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: in level three point you know nine rehab and it's
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 3: like no, like you're you're not clinically appropriate for this
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: level of care.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so I guess, yeah, maybe putting it under a
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 6: level of care for telehealth, and maybe that's where telehealth
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 6: will start shifting to like hey, maybe you can't open
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 6: up orders for that, but you need to be running
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 6: like a tester scale to kind of help.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: On an international note test. I've had Canadians call and
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 3: tell me like, hey, we can't find anybody in Canada.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 5: A well subtle for you.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 3: And I've had people reach out to say, yeah, there's
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: like direction.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: Canon is from here.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 5: Probably if you go south enough. It's just truth.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: Same way that we can walk to Europe if we
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: just go up and over.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: Yes you can. I think I think you can. She
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: knows the Canadians are attached to the North Pole.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: Because the Europe is it.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: Well, sand's European, all right, So like but on this point,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: let's get out. He's right, we don't have any more
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: break Oh yeah, we are taking a break hold on.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 4: And when it wasn't just nicked apps, we're gonna wrap
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 4: up the show.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: You're listening to pot therapy and we're back there. It is,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: thank you.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 3: As we wrap up the show, I want to remind
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: you that if you sign up at patreon dot com
• 1:33:59
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• 1:34:11
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• 1:34:24
  Speaker 3: are hearing this episode in our Patreon, you have heard
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: the interview that Whitney and I did with National Public Radio.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: That was really fun. You did a great job and
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: we got to join a professor from you and LV
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: and talk about please don't kill yourself since Donald Trump
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: got a life.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, pretty good life advice.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: It's pretty much always said, just over and over and over.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 5: Summary.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: But we also have some new friends that have joined
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: us at patreon dot com slash therapy. Who is new
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: to the therap party.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: We got a new therap pod. Welcome, Kevin. Kevin welcome Kevin,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: and we got a new therap partner, Nathan Mickey. Oh, Nathan,
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: if I'm mispronouncing that, let me know. I think it's Mookie.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think this is a it's
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: a German. It looks German, and I believe this is
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: pronounced Mickey. I think it's Nathan.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, yeah, you know what.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: You might be right or Nahan. Hand is.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 3: Like hand, I.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: Welcome Nadian.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 3: As we get to the end, we want to think
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 3: false equivalency, our theity, our resident, theority, the dark Lord himself,
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: Jim's Fasha, Pancake Fascia, and of course we'd like to
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 3: think the benevolent, Revere, generous and flagrantly pro therapy diehards
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 3: who love you all so much they give till it hurts.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: That there are partners dirty b and Picket. And we
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: want to think our bosses, the mysterious and shrouded Illuminati
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: members of the fan club that they're producers. Thank you,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: Jake Schneider, Myra, Robert Brownie, Junior, Mint Smitty, Scoop bend On,
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• 1:36:10
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  Speaker 3: that's me, Sammy Scoop, Ben Stanley slapping your face, Sarah Smith,
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  Speaker 3: oscar Swan ros A, Sonny Boy, Slippe Kaya a motherfucker,
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• 1:36:34
  Speaker 3: Elena Cody, and the Lorian Guy, Sam Cone and introducing
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 3: Natthan Mookie.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 5: We have to see it that way.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 3: He knew, he knew what he was signing us for,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 3: not not.
• 1:36:47
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• 1:36:58
  Speaker 3: That's all the time we have for this week.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: Session.
• 1:37:00
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• 1:37:03
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• 1:37:06
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• 1:37:39
  Speaker 5: At hand nathand Muki.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 3: Sounds like Nyoki sounds like a ty food dish. Bye,
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 3: so adorable