Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / How to be a Feminist Business with Renee Powers

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How to be a Feminist Business with Renee Powers · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio. And today we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: are so so so happy to be joined by Renee
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Powers of Feminist book Club, the podcast, the business, the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: subscription box, all of it.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us. I am so
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: We're so excited to have you. We've already like we
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: do this all the time. We just adopt people as friends.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: So you're like our friend.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Perfect.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: We're gonna have really fun hangout times where we complain
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: about business stuff.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, I love this for all of us.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: I love that your podcast just fits perfectly with ours.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, why haven't we've been hanging out before.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: That's that's more that's stranger to me than the this part.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: It's true, it's true, and this is this is a
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: really fun thing because you're coming on our podcast and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: we're going to be on your podcast, which I'm gonna
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: admit I'm a little nervous about because you feel a
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: little bit more polished.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Oh oh, it's all a facod it's all fake, fake
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: it till you make it, is my mantra.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I love that as our like twelve year
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: veteran here are saying she's nervous, and yes, still get nervous.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: It's like I want a plane with turbulence, right.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you though, And I was telling
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Samantha this earlier that I started podcasting because of stuff
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Mom never told you, Like I started listening back in
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: like twenty ten, is that right, Like yeah, like even
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: before Caroline came on, it was it was Kristin and Molly.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what inspired me to podcast. I remember drive.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I had a thirty five minute commute out to my
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: grad school program, and I would it was a straight
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: shot and I would just cueue up all the back episodes.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I A fan ever said, so this feels really like
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know, this is really fulfilling to me. So
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: thanks for thanks for chatting with me.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I love that so much. Oh my gosh, I'm almost
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: like I'm thinking back to oh my time, because I
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: was an editor at that point. I was the editor
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: of the show. So that's so cool. It's like those
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: connections you can make over technology and you don't realize, yes,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: like he's made them.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: The parasocial relationships have become real social relationship.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, it's so odd too working
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: in this business when you, like, as an editor, I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: would know such personal facts about people who have never
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: spoken to me before, but I work with them. It
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: was just such a strange thing. Is like, you probably
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: don't even know my name, but I know when you
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: like lost your virgin very bizarre. Well, okay, can you
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: introduce yourself to our listeners.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, as you said, my name Swerna Powers. I
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: she her pronouns. I am based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Minneapolis proper, not one of the urbs.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's a big thing.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: That's a thing for everyone, like way exactly. Yeah. But
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I am the founder of Feminist Book Club. We are
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: a monthly book subscription service and media company. We use
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: literature as a launchpad to have difficult conversations about social
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: justice and we've been doing this for just over five
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: years now. This grew out of a failed dissertation. Oh wow,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: So I'm actually I'm a I call myself a pH dropout.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I spent eight years in grad school, six years in
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: a PhD program, and I was studying gender and communication
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: and technology and got to the point where I did
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: all my coursework, I passed my exams, and then I
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: went to propose my dissertation and I failed it three
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: times and I was like, I'm out. Yeah, it was
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: just like horrible on my mental health. So I was
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in Chicago. My partner is from Minneapolis. We moved up
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: here together, and I was like, well, I had this
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: interview project as part of my dissertation. I'm just going
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: to do it as a podcast. And like I said, stuff,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: mom never told you got me into podcasting, like listening
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: to podcasts and feminist podcasting I think is such an
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: interesting medium. And so thanks to y'all and what you do.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Feminist book Clubs started as a podcast, and my listeners
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: would say, like, you're always giving you know, book recommendations,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: like what if you had an actual book club, And
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: it just grew organically from there. We started just a
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: bunch of friends in a Facebook group reading the same books,
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  Speaker 2: and now we have you know, a thousand members around
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  Speaker 2: the world and our own platform and app, and we
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: talk to authors and we have a you know, bi
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: weekly podcast. Bi weekly has twice a week, not every
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: other week, it's twice a week podcast and daily blog.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: We're big on TikTok. We're big on Instagram. It's just
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: rad as hell. So that's what we are and what
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I do. I just kind of guide the ship.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it is quite the ship. You've got quite
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: a large team. I was a little jealous when I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: was looking at it, right, This is amazing. You get
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: to work with these this many people.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: They're so cool to. Every single one of our contributors
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: and staff is just like the coolest people I've ever met.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: And I am big on surrounding myself with people that
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: are much smarter than me. So we do have We've
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: got kind of our executive team of four of us
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: that our podcast producer, We've got our blog editor in chief,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: and then our Captain of commerce is their title, and
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: their name is Raw and Ron and I work in
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Minneapolis together in an office space, and so we are
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: the only two full time employees. But everyone else is
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: a contributor and you know, doing two to four pieces
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: of content every month and helping out on you know,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: the community and creating all sorts of really cool conversations
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: to starting really interesting conversations of like things that they
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: are interested in and therefore I am now interested in.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: So it's Yeah, our content really runs the gamut of
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: a little bit of everything. We've got you know, someone
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: who works for the federal government. We've got a former
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: park ranger. We've got a science communication like professional, like
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: feminism applies to everything, and we are able to use
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: our team of contributors to highlight that. We've got like
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: a film writer, like it's just cool, it's just cool.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Everybody is just yeah, a romance author like what. Yeah,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: it's a great team.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. And I do want to come back
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: to the thing you said about being a feminist podcasts
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: in this this space in a second, But just first,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: I have a couple questions about how has podcasting treated you,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: how has it been? And then also I find we
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: have a book club on here. It is once a
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: month and it's amazing, But I find that it's difficult
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: to like read a whole book for podcasts, which sounds terrible,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: but like when it's your job, like you're researching all
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: the time, you're reading stuff all the time, it just
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: becomes like okay, and I hate this, but it's true.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be like this book is too long, we can't
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: read this one. Have you found that that has sort
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: of leaked into your personal enjoyment of reading.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Mmmm. What a good question. I'm h So. One of
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the reasons I started Feminist Book Club is because I
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: was so tired of reading like research, like dead old
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: white guys writing about postmodernism like over it. So anything
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: that's not that has always been fun for me. But
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: to your point, yes, there are some books that kind
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: of feel like homework, whether that's for you know, one
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: of our books of the month, or if that's the
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: guest that we're gonna have on the podcast. I read
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: everybody's books that's on the podcast. So yes, I don't
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: know what else to say about that without affending people.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to do got to interview.
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  Speaker 2: Gosh, But what I will say is I'm a very
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: fast reader, and so I always have at least three
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  Speaker 2: books going at once, and if if one, if I'm
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: reading something for quote unquote fun, so I don't have
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: like the author coming on or I don't have to
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: write discussion questions for our book club. I am not
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: afraid of not finishing a book like time is too precious.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I will I will put it if it's like fifty
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  Speaker 2: pages in, and I am not feeling it. It's just
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: not the right time for me. It's not you know,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: the vibe that I'm looking for. I will shelve it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm unapologetic about not finishing books. I also listen
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: to most books on audio rather than reading physical books,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: and Feminist Book Club does have an audiobook subscription nice.
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  Speaker 2: And I find that being able to constantly be listening
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: to something, I get through so many more books because
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I can do it, you know, while I'm walking my dog,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: while I'm washing dishes, while I'm doing yardwork, you know.
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  Speaker 2: So I at nine percent of the time I've got
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: you know, earbuds in and I'm listening to a book
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  Speaker 2: on at least one point five speed.
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  Speaker 3: Oh.
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  Speaker 1: Interesting. I love it when people are write it and
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: like I only listen to it this this this speed.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Like all right, your audiobook is great at one point
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: five speed.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: Right, that's good to know myself as well, so if
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: not too a chipmug a fuck.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you both sound great. That's a great speed
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: for y'all.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, Oh my gosh, I love that so much.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: I like it.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: It's true though, it is. Oh, I'm sure we'll probably
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: talk about this a bit when we are on your show.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: But it is one of those things that we kind
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: of had to say to our boss, which felt strange.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: It felt like he was assuming this is gonna be
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: a grand slam because you've got like an audience, and
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but people listen to things because they
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: can do something else while they're listening to the thing,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: and it's just different mediums, Like I'm not sure it's
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: going to translate necessarily. But both Samantha and I foolishly
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: didn't realize we were going to do an audiobook, which
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: I'm so happy about, like it's very cool. I want
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: to be accessible all that stuff, but I just it
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: is different when you can walk your dog or cook
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: or do something while you're listening to a book.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: And I'm one of those people that I always have
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: to be doing something with my hands, Like yeah, so
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: it's hard for me to sit down and read a book.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: I'm very like fidgety, and so what I often do.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Then I got really into cross stitching. Yes, yes, so
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I have just dozens of cross stitching projects that I'm
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: working on, and I will just sit on the couch,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: listen to my book and and do my little do
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: my little cross stitching because I'm seventy five years old
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: and unashamed of it. And I'm also in like I'm
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: calling at my cozy mystery era, like all I want
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: to read are like women solving murders, but like cozy yes,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: so yes, I just make me a cup of tea
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: and you know, reserve a bed at the old Folks
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Home for me because I'm.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: Sounds does me?
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: No, No, Samantha is looking for a lazier version of
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: cozy game.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Like trying to actually do things and having quests. No,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: that's like good, I'm good. I just I want to
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: do something in less than that. What do I just
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: click on things?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you? That's how That's how I got If you
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: want to talk about games, That's how I got into
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: animal crossing because it's just like, yeah, I just want
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: to sit here and fish.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: Well that's the thing is like I literally stopped building things,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: so it's like I don't want this to be a
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: whole village. I wanted to be my five people, and
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: I just go selfish. I don't understand what this is
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: even to the point like I actually try to start
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: knitting and I did. Okay, I did a couple of rows,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: and I was like, and I'm done. So I'm really
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: good at it.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: You know, it's all right to change an audiobook.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: You do a few more and you can do a
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: few more roads.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I am an odd person when it comes to audiobooks.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: I do like I will play phone games while I'm
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: listening to the audio, or I will sam I will
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: work do the double whammy of that. So yeah, but
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: I like your version better except for the fact that
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: I'm not talented enough to do this stitching. Yeah.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's just following. It's just following a map. It's
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: so easy.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: This is what people tell me. And then I try
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: it and then it comes out of blob. I'm like,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: you lie to me.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: All the stitches and start over, which is also really satisfying.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Is it okay?
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Because in my mind I'm just automatically breaking the string
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: and throwing it across the room and screaming up my failures.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, that sounds yeah. I could chat all day
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff. But you did propose a
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: serious topic for this episode, which is something that we
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: struggle with that we think about a lot. And that's
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: when you are an intersectional feminists and that's something that's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: part of you, but you're still in this capitalist space
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: that is not that and in fact and typical to that.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: So how to be a feminist in a space that
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: is not when we do have to, you know, have
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: livelihoods and make money and survive, but how to do that?
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: So if you can just talk about like your initial
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: because you said you've done a lot of interviews about
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: this lately, you've been thinking about it lately, sort of
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: the when you sent this idea to us. What was
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: on your mind? What are you thinking about?
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's something that I think about constantly, is
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: how to run a feminist business, because, like you said,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: that feels contradictory and it's something I'm I changed my
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: mind about all the time. And this is something you
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: all discussed in your book too, and I love that
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: you talk about this. Fear of failure is detrimental to
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: the feminist movement. And I've been screaming that from the
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: top of my lungs, right that you know, if I
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: don't show up try and fail, Like, if I don't
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: show up and try, knowing that I could fail, Like what,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: that's not moving anybody forward?
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: So all I'm saying is like, this is my approach
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and I will likely fail, but that's okay because we
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: will all learn something from it. Right, So, how do
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: we participate in capitalism and critique capitalism at the same
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: time is something I think about a lot. And the
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: the short answer is capitalism is compulsory, Like there's nothing
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: that we can do to remove ourselves from capitalism and
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: still be just like a functioning human in the society.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: So that means that we have to participate in capitalism ethically,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And so how do we do that? What does that
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: look like? And so that's what I've been like, how
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: to be an anti capitalist business is like really hard,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: But how to be an ethical business that prioritizes the
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: needs of its customers, the needs of its employees, the
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: needs of its staff before profit. I think that is
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: what sets feminists businesses apart from your run of the mill,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: even small business. I was gonna say, like Walmart, but like,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: even there are a lot of small businesses that are
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: just in it for the bottom line. Yeah, every decision
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: that is made in this business from a place of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: people over profit. Like, yes, we have to pay our bills,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: but if by chance we can't pay our bills. We
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: will still pay our people, and that's a real thing.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Right We're in a recession, and there are there are
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: times like right now, I was just telling you all
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: before we started recording, like our office space was broken
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: into four times in the last month and we lost,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: you know, over five thousand dollars worth of equipment, Like
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: all of our festival stuff is gone. It's just it's
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: so frustrating and insurance won't cover it, which is really great.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh I love it.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: So like we started a I believe deeply in mutual
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: eight too, and so we started to GoFundMe and we're
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: starting to like recoup some of those costs and anything
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: left over is going to start to help us get
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the ball rolling on reincorporating as a feminist co op,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: an employee owned co op. So that's I wanted to
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: get this business off the ground, so it was stable,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: it was running, it had systems and processes right.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: And.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Then I wanted to step away. And so that's what
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: we're in the process of right now, is putting the
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: business in the hands of the actual community. Like I said,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: my background is in feminist theory, and so I come
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: at this not from a business standpoint. I don't have
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: a background in business. I don't have a business degree,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: but I come from this from a theory background. And
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: what does it look like when we put feminist theory
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: into action? And there is a research method called feminist
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: participatory action research, and I have tried my best to
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: adapt that to running a business. And what that really means.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: It's a feedback loop, right of you know, we're thinking
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: about this decision. What do you think we want to
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: go this direction? What do you think this goes all
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the way down to Like the books that we pick,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: I don't pick them, our members pick them. I choose
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: a theme because I'm like, well, we haven't read Native
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: American voices lately, so like, let's do Native American voices
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: month something along those lines. We haven't read trance voices,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: we haven't read about Hollywood, so like our next Our
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: next theme is in the zeitgeist, right because they're on strike.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: But it's a night of the movie, so we're gonna
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: be having conversations about the strike and the labor movement,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: but you know, all under the guise of reading fun
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Hollywood stories. So I propose the theme. Our members suggest
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: titles based on that theme and then everybody votes and
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: that's what gets chosen as the book of the month.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: So yeah, learning with and from participants instead of like teaching,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: like just not assuming I'm the smartest person in the room,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: because I'm absolutely not. But you know, bringing our community
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: into the decision making has been really rewarding. And then
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: and then they feel invested in it too. So I
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: think that's I just gave you, like all of my
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: word salad about about running a feminist business. So yes,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: let's let's let's let's synthesize here, right, So restructuring into
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: a co op, people over profit, prioritizing our customers' opinions
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: and asking for their feedback, I think, and opening up
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: this feedback loop. I think that are those are the
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: hallmarks of how we run a feminist business and how
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: we uh yeah, push back against and participate in capitalism
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: in in an anti capitalist way. We're not in it
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to make a pajillion dollars. Nobody sells books to make
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: a pajillion dollars unless your name is Jeff Bezos and
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: he can give.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: Agreed, agree, Also, can we actually make money? Because I
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: want to make money with the book. How do we
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: do this Annie.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry not to be the bearer of bad news,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: but son of them. Okay, sorry friends, but yes, yeah,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: thank you.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: I love the wrap up that was. You can tell
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: I've definitely done presentation. I see your PhD in here,
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: like trying to do the defense.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Not quite a PhD. I'm considered abd all the dissertation.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Yes, well I'm gonna I'm gonna say you have it
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: because you you were.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you, You're so you can still call me professor Powers.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I will, I will every day.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I think that's such an interesting conversation because
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: we've had to have a back and forth about like, yeah,
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: we need money to live. Uh, so we can't say
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: because like we have a lot of ads and advertising,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: and we try to be very very very conscious of
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: what we say yes and no to, and of course
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: sometimes we just don't have any control at all. And
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: then the like pushback we get because we are an
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: absolute and we stand by the intersectional feminist, we make
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: mistakes or we may not know every information because as
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: much as we want to be those upstanding people, the
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: fact of the matter is this is a job. We
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: have to make money. I have to do things kind
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: of the same way, and I was in social word
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: of like, I'm doing some things that I really hate,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: but I'm trying to do it in the best and
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: more conscious way possible, knowing that I'm finding a system
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: that's rigged against everyone, every marginalized group in so many ways.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Like have you had a lot of conversations on how
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: to like navigate that for yourself, especially when it comes
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: to like advertising and all of those.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we do sell advertising, and we are very picky
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: about who we are willing to work with. And that's
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, and that's one of the pluses of being
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: independent is we don't have a parent company that we
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: have to make money for, Like we are making money
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: for ourselves to keep this ship afloat. So we only
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: work with women, gender non conforming or queer or people
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: of color in terms of like the books that we spotlight,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the the companies that we work with for like the
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: products that come with the books, because we do send
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: out like a sticker or like a bookmark or something
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: like small cute, and we do quarterly boxes that are
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: full of goodies and books and those all those things
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: come from small marginalized identity businesses, including like our our
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: web developer and our you know, our podcast editor are
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: our printer that we use for like inserts and stickers
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and stuff. So like when we spend money on something,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: we are doing that within our values. Would we take
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: money from someone, I don't care who we take money
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: from as long as that product is aligned with us. Gosh,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and very rarely have we worked with CIS men and
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: CIS owned businesses, this male owned businesses. But I'm not
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: gonna say no to if like Casper Mattresses or something like,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna assume their own by a white guy.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: If Casper Mattress wants to like give me a bajillion
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: dollars to pitch them on our podcast, like or like
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: a free mattress like thank you, yeah, yes, and like
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: one all of our friends, you know, like right, because
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: you're getting me money, and I feel like that's feminist.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: But if it's like if it's like a company that
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: sells only like Maga hats, absolutely not, Like I don't
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: care if you give me a bajillion dollars, I'm not
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: going to you know, sell ar fifteens on our podcast.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: But right, but like a mattress owned by a cess,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: why guy, probably, yeah, yep, So like that's like we
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: could be really picky, but thankfully we haven't had to
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: have run into those issues. It's the flows of money, right,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: It's the flow of capitalism and like redistributing it. And
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: that's one thing also is like we work primarily with
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: women owned businesses because studies have shown when you put
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: capital in the hands of a woman owned business a,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: you will lift generations out of poverty, but be it
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: will also be redistributed amongst that community. So the fact
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: that you know, we are more likely to give our dollars,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: we are one hundred percent likely to give our dollars
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: to small women and minority own businesses just means that
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: that money continues to do good in whatever community they
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: serve instead of going into If we were to give
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: money to Bezos, for instance, that's just going into his
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: pockets and into his like four oh one k. Does
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: he even have a four oh one k? Probably not,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: like he is a four oh one k, but like, well,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean is that it's going into
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: like investments, which doesn't do anybody any good except for him.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, you ended up hitting on a
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: topic which was an inside joke for us about me
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: trying to get a damn mattress from Jump, like, because right, well,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: that's hilarious. Right before I started everyone that was one
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: of the big things, individual mattresses, and I was like,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: I want one.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: That started the best we've gotten as vibrators. We got vibrators.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Be happy with that too, but.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: They were woman owned. They're a woman Latina owned, so like.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: We had someone on who had those amazing vibrators.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: I want one.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: We never got it, though I was really hoping, Oh, I'm.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Sorry for it. I paid for it, but I got
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: it anyway. Moving well, that's one of the interesting things
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: about I think about this a lot, and sometimes I
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: think this is kind of a petty thought, but sometimes
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, this is completely legitimate. But we sometimes
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: get teased because we turned down a lot of ads.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: We really do. And there was this infamous study so
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Matha didn't do it, but I had to fill out
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: like this huge form where you just it was. It
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: took me four hours and it was just like sponsors
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that you might be okay with working with. And I
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: feel like for people who want to uphold intersectional feminism,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: that was a homework assignment because I literally had to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: look up every company, Yep, what they do, where do
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: they donate their money? All of this stuff, And I
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: think that people who issued it were just holly white
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: men who didn't think like I'm not. They're like, oh,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: do you like this or do you not like that?
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Like that kind of dichotomy versus wait, what do they
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: stand for? What do they do? And sometimes I get
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: a little grumpy because I'll hear some male colleagues of
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: ours We're like, oh, I just said yes to that
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: because I like that. I'm like, well, okay, but did
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: you know about this? Right?
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Did you know they single handedly caused the fires on
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: MAUI like.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: You know, like the content, we really would have an
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: ad that we said yes to two years prior and
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: then come back and go like, oh, well, here's a
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: new controversy and we can't use them now, whether it's
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: like strike things or union things or or do you
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: recall or you found out that the CEO was a
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: man who did not care about people when it was
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: branded as women owned, Like, there're so many things that
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: came back. We're like, what's happening? And then not only
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: do we say no and probably Anie, because ay does
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: this work, I'll love you Anie, She's already justified. Why
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: we get another pushback like are you sure now? Tell
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: me why again? Tell us why again? And they're not.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: We love our as people. Please don't think this because
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: they're just doing their job. But the of matter is
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: like there is extra work to what you think. And like,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: we got another ad vetting today and I'm looking at it,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: I'm like, well, we know this already controversy, so we
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: definitely probably will say no. You know, like all these things.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: I already know what Adie has said in turning it down.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: It was a huge company, and it's like this is
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: what we have to do and then justify two or
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: three times about why we can't work with them.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even and it sucks too. It's like it's
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: hard for us when we are purchasing things. So for
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: the first couple of years I live in Minneapolis, we
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: were using you line for our boxes. We didn't have
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: branded boxes. We were using you line because they are
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: just across the state line and Wisconsin. I could go
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: pick them up, Like it was really easy. I didn't
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: have to paper shipping, and they were the cheap on
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: the market, well, they're the cheapest on the market because
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: they're a bajillion dollar industry and they're one of Trump's
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: largest donors. That family, the Uline family. As soon as
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I learned that, I was like, like, now I have
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: to I have to pay more to find something. But
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: it ended up being great because then I found a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: family owned box printing company here in Saint Paul that
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: they were so like, they were so wonderful right where
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: they like I was sick, and they like brought they
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: brought samples to my house just so I could like
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: choose the ink color and then we got them customerz
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: like it turned out great. Shout out to Tilsner Carton.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I self was like this like an office episode of
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: like business owners and like they do these like.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: What but help them. I didn't have the time at
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: the time to do my due diligence of like vetting.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: It was just like where everybody got their boxes from,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: you know, like oh, it was so frustrating and so
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: now yeah, so now we don't use you line, and
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I suggest you not use you line because they are
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a giant donor to the far right.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: So there's so many conversations like that.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: But at least our audiences know that we are putting
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: in that due diligence now, like we learn our lessons.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and when we get calls in is nice.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And if we are doing I mean, there's only
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: so much work and research we can do, but we're
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: doing the best that we can. And I think that
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: our audiences as an audience of yours, I know I
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: appreciate it. And I also know that y'all need to
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: make money. You can't do this for free.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: I'm sure people will be like why podcasting was like
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: that to begin with?
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: It was, but it's not important, you know.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: One of the other things I think about, especially when
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: it comes to like feminist businesses, you want to be
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: the person who supports the small businesses, that supports the
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: marginalized businesses as well. And for the longest time, Etsy
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: was the to go spot, and now you're getting all
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: this information about, oh, they're not being treated well. So
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: this comes to the point of like, okay, a, as
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: a small owner of a business, where do you go
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: b as a consumer? How do you navigate that as
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: well so that you're doing what you need to do
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: to truly help those businesses? Like how do you go
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: through all of that.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So there are a lot of marketplaces like at
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: C and for small businesses too, there are a lot
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: of like wholesale marketplaces. And one thing that I do
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: is like there's the ability to message like the business
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: owner on all of these marketplaces. At C we use
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: fair for a lot of our wholesale goods, and then
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I always ask them like, how do you prefer that
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I make this purchase? Like would you like to invoice
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: me directly? Because yeah, I want to make sure that
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: they're getting all of the dollars. So ye, Etsy's not
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: going to hold on to, you know, six thousand dollars
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: inevitably for six months or something like. What Etsy is
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: doing is really fun for a lot of makers. So
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I would just go, you know, if I see something
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: that I really like, absolutely message the creator and just
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: say how what is the best way for me to
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: support you and and make it as easy as possible
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: for them. It's also like hard to do and it's
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: it's time consuming. So they're on Etsy for a reason,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: and so I'm sure they're not going to be like, well,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: don't buy from Etsy. They would rather you buy from
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Etsy than not buy it, all right, So if you
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: don't have the time or energy or spoons to spend
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: on you know, going out of your way to message
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: the artist or the creator, like, it's fine, but if
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: you do have that extra energy to spend, please.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: Do Essentially, Like what it comes down to is, I
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: know there's a lot of small businesses and trying to
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: take off. Essentially they're hoping that they'll go They're gonna
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: make the the gold mine of being viral. I know
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: that's the new thing, and that's let's just be real honest,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: that's rare. That's not going to happen to most small
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: businesses as much as we would love it. I know,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: like the small restaurants are hoping that by the kaith
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Lee of TikTok will come through and and like just
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: blow up their business. But that's that's a rare occasion.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: So for any business owner who's trying to be especially women,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: because we know that they are the least likely to
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: get any help when it comes to advertising any of that.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: How what's the best route for them to have their
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: business take off or at least to be profitable.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's okay, that's excellent. That's an excellent question. First, off.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I will say, like, even going viral doesn't do We
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: have had several of our TikTok videos, you know, get
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: five hundred thousand, a million views. It barely moves the
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: needle for us. We will get a lot of traffic,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily traffic doesn't equal sales. Right, We'll
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: get a lot of followers, followers, you can't you can't
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: make money on followers. So it's like converting virality is
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: really hard for a lot of people. So there's that.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: But I also think that there are so many really
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: really cool organizations that are created just for small business owners.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Insert identity here, right, if that's queer small business owners,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: if that's black small business owners, and women small business
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: owners have Like, there are so many resources, and I'm
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: gonna shout out a couple of them in particular. I
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: was a part of the Tory Birch Foundation Fellowship in
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, and they select it's founded by Tory Birch,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And she actually created her fashion line so she could
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: give back. This is what I'm saying, Like, women do
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: cool with their businesses and their money. Like she two
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: likes fashion, but she was like, but I want my
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: fashion to do something and like support other woman business owners.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: And so she launched the Tory Birch Foundation, which focuses
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: solely on women owned small businesses and getting them up
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: off the ground and giving them the resources that they
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: need to succeed. And so every year they pick fifty
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: women own small businesses across the country and I Famous
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Book Club was one of them in twenty twenty one.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: And it's a cohort of women owned businesses from all
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: different industries from you know, finance, tech to restaurants to
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: roofing companies, and we all come together online to learn
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: the basics of business, learn the ins and outs, learn
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: new skills. But also I think the most important thing
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: that comes out of these kind of incubators or accelerators
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: or fellowship programs is the connections that you make with
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: other small businesses. Like I have made so many close
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: friends through these kinds of things who will be there
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: to support me. They're just a text message away, you know.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Or we have a very active WhatsApp group that is
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: just like I have to mute it most of the
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: time because it is so so active, which is lovely, right.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: So I think that women especially tend to lean on
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: their communities or or ought to learn how to lean
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: on our communities for support in all sorts of ways.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Whatever that means, Like, hey, does anybody have like a
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: marketing professional. I mean just like just yesterday, I got
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: an email from somebody in the Torri Brish Fellowship that
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: was like, Hey, I'm looking for somebody who specifically does
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: you know CpG consumer package goods sales through Klavio, which
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: is like an email client, And I was like, I
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: actually have somebody who works with integrations with WU commerce.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Like these are very very specific asks. It's like, oh wait,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: there's somebody in this group that knows exactly what you
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: need and like can make that in direction. So it's
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: just a way to like to network and to like
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: grow your connections so you have you have those resources
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: when you need them. So yeah, the Torribrtch Foundation has
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: been fantastic the connections that I've made there. But also
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: there are local organizations like this too. So I'm also
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: part of Lunar Startups, which is just Minnesota based and
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: they work with under estimated and underrepresented founders, so they
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: specifically work with people of color, women and queer folks.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: So I was a part of that. During the pandemic,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: we started March like third of twenty twenty in person
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: in Saint Paul, and then the world cut out and
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: we all moved to Zoom crying, and it was great.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: We were all in the trenches together at least like
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: fifteen you know, small business owners in the Twin Cities,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: we're like, when do we need? Everything sucks? So I
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: was so glad to have that resource because I don't
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: know what I would have done otherwise. So just like,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: building these communities is so necessary for small feminist business
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: owners because we cannot do this in a vacuum, but
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: we require That's one thing that we learned in the pandemic,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: or we didn't learn the pandemic that we should have learned,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: was like, we need to take care of the community's
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: needs in order to take care of our own needs.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: And until we take care of the community around us,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: you know whatever that means, however, you to find community like,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: we cannot succeed full stop. So what is it? Yeah,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: how do we take care of everybody's needs in order
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: to take care of our own needs? I think Robin
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: waal Chimer said it best in Braiding Sweet Grass it's
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: my favorite, one of my favorite lines of any book ever.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: She says that all flourishing is mutual, like we cannot
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: flourish until we are in all of it together flourishing.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: There's no individual flourishing like that.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: And it's true. The pandemic really showcased for like small businesses.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: It started that conversation of like, oh, well, we've been
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: kind of pushing this to the side, ignoring this for
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: so long, and now we have We're trying to have
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: some conversations about it. Some more healthy or helpful than others.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: But there was that aspect I did want to touch on,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that this will give you some room
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: to really rant because it's something that bothers me is
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of time. Samantha kind of alluded to it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Because we're feminist podcasts, we're women moms in the name,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: we get a lot of ad requests from businesses that
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: are pretending to be feminists or any any like intersection
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: with it, like queer, Like during Black History Month, all
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: of this happens, and it's just like I've multiple times
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: been like, okay, but you're saying you're donating this, what
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: are you donating it to and then I never hear
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: anything again. What are your thoughts on the people who
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: are trying to use this feminist business model to pretend
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: and to cash in, but are actually like the most
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: superficial things.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, let me, let me get out my soapbox.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: You're alluding to incredibly performative feminism, and it is most
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: likely white feminism if we're gonna keep it. In the
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: realm of feminist we get so many, so many book
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: pitches in particular that are like unleash the Goddess within,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: or like your Warrior Woman says Rar, or like boss Babe,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: but how to start your girl boss Empire. And it's like,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: none of those things are feminist. That is so disgusting.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Those are so neoliberal, capitalist junk. Can we get to
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: the second and third layer of this, because your surface
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: layer of white feminism is I'm allergic to it, like
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: please please step away. Who Yeah, it makes me very angry.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: But the thing is like I just simply say, like,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: thank you so much. This does not align. We are
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: really trying to amplify the voices of folks on the margins,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: not let's be honest, like rich white lawn yoga instructing
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: green smoothie drinking privileged women. And if you are that,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you are here because you need
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: to You need this kind of information in your life.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: The stuff that stuff, that stuff Mom never told you,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: you know, covers. It's like, that's one way to broaden
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: your your horizons. And and yeah, there are a lot
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: of companies out there or organizations out there that just
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: give lip service to whatever is in the zeitgeist right
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: that they're raising money or they donate to, you know,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: we say social justice organizations. We say we donate to
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: social justice organizations every month, and we don't name what
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: they are publicly because for a number of reasons, because
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: we're not marketing on that, like we're not using that
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: as a marketing tool, and so our members know where
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: the money is going. But also I am a strong believer.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I grew up Catholic. This is where I wanted to go.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: I grew up Catholic, and like social justice Catholic. Though
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: like the real the realising everybody.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Get some emails.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: I'm just kidding, sorry, but not like but not not
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Catholic or it's like anti abortion Catholic, but but like
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: feed the feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Catholic
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: is like how I grew up. And one of the
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: things that really stuck with me from Catholic school is
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: when there's a there's a verse in the Bible. And
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: don't ask me what part of the Bible, I have
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: no clue at this point, but there's a verse where
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: it says, when you pray, go into a closet and
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: pray in solitude. Nobody needs to know that you're praying, Like,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: you're not praying for everybody's brownie points. That's performative. And
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: the same thing goes with our our social justice and
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: our activism, like, yes, we need to be out marching,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Yes we need to use our privilege for good those
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: of us who have privilege. Yes, we need to put
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: our bodies on the lines, especially white bodies on the
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: lines in front of people of color, Like, yes, those
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: are things we need to be doing. And at the
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: same time, your entire Facebook feed doesn't need to know
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: that you just donated fifty dollars to plan parenthood. That's
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: who is that doing. That's just making you feel good.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of businesses think that
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: you know, saying that they're going to donate X, Y,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: and Z is just like it's just lip service, it's
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: just a marketing ploy And it's really frustrating for me
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: to see as a company who has donated tens of
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: thousands of dollars of our profit to social justice organizations
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: across the world, but we don't use it. We're doing
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: it in our closet and praying God, I'm so sorry,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: And this is how I get canceled o.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: So you know, it is so frustrating, and I can't
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: we can't go into this because it'll become a whole
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: railroad going off the railroad situation. But it's like, I
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: hate that. I'm into what you're doing. I'm into what
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you're saying, and I asked for any details and then
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: none come forth. And then if they do, if you're like,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know, bud Light, and you do this thing
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: and then they freak out and backtrack immediately, like it's
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: like illuminating because it tells me you literally have never
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: thought about what it must be like to be a
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: transperson in this case and all of the backlash that
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: might be, but you thought it would be cool to
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: cash it. Like it's like uninformed. It's like not even
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: it's malicious, but it's almost more uninformed than malicious.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: First off, that woman in particular Dylan, who just got
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: brutally attacked online because she got bud Light sent to her,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Like that's just my heart goes out to her. What
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: I would prefer bud Light Anheuser Busch and MBEV who
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: owns like every major beer company in this country, and beyond,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: what I would prefer to see them do is have
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: trans folks on their board of directors. You know, Like,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: I don't give a if they are giving a can
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: of beer to Dylan on TikTok. What I give about
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: is if you are including their voices in decision making rooms,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: like transpolts need to be in the work room where
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: it happens, you know, like it's not just yeah, that
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: is the definition of performative. If they had had a
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: trans person in their like marketing, the influencer outreach division,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: like that wouldn't have happened.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: That's kind of the epitome of like the privilege that yeah,
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: people don't realize there is. So the fact that Annheuser Busch,
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: they had a little bit of backlash. All they did
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: was stay silent, literally allowing this woman to take all
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: of the threats and harassment and being like, yep, oh,
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: well that didn't work. That didn't well it did partially
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: pay out for a minute because there were supporters for
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: the second and then their silence and apology shows not
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: only their blindness, ignorance and harmful behavior in everything that
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: they just did without again talking to the right community.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: Who did they talk to? They're like, this person's a
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: TikTok famous little let's send a beer, which we already know.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: All the mess on that end we're not going to
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: talk about. But that kind of comes back to this
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: whole conversation of like who is this for, why are
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: you doing this? And what does this do? And then
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: when we look at who may be a woman, and
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: this is the whole conversation any and I've had plenty
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: of times women supporting women, but what are these women
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: actually doing and what are they doing that is good
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: for other women and other marginalized folks. So we have
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: to backtrack, like, no, it can't just be simply this
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: and this. There's a lot of women on businesses like
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: I think about this often because again coming back to Etsy,
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: because I tried to be is whatever. Well, I'm like, yeah,
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: but this person, oh, she's got she's got some things
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: on here that I do not want to support. She
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: has anti abortion, she has all these things, and I'm like,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: I can't support that. I have to dig in to
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: see who she's selling to or someone who has no standards,
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: and I get to the point of like, yeah, you
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: have to make a business. I get it, but you're
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: willing to put mega stuff onto your stuff and then
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: sell it and then also Black Lives Matter that doesn't work.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There was that That reminds me like when we
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: were doing whatever, I was purchasing for one of our
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: boxes ones. There was a product that I thought was
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: so cute and it came in all these different designs
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: and I was like, ooh, so close to purchasing, and
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: then I kept going and scrolling and I was like,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: uh uh.
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: Oh when you go to the review, when you go
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: through the reviews and you see who she's oh, you're like, ma'am, oh,
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: we're in Minneapolis.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: We are not supporting somebody who has Blue Lives Matter
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: on there.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: That's the other part to that, like we have to
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: hold our own accountable as well, and I say this
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: as an Asian woman who all this rhetorics and very
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: very like white supremacist rhetoric that I'm like, I do
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: not support this. I do not support them just because
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: they're an Asian woman. We have to have that conversation
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: of like that fine line of just because it seems
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: okay because on the outside, this is a person of color,
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: she's an Asian woman. Okay, cool, cool, cool cool. Even
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: queer people you're like, oh they're queer. Oh but they're
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: they're staunchly still somehow republican. Like I don't I don't
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: get this, but I have to know that this is
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: not necessarily just supporting, like that's right, you have to
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: dig deeper.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Poles come in every shade, race and you know color,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: like everybody can has the potential to be a total.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's how I live. Everybody's probably an I'm just kidding.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. So yeah, I like to think that
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I want to support, you know, first and foremost intersectional
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: progressive businesses just personally. But yeah, and if that's not available,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: a minority owned business, a woman owned business is better
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: than again, it's better than Amazon. But yes, being mindful
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: of like, what's that person likely going to do and
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: support with their dollars is really important to me?
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do think you said something earlier that
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about it before. But I often
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: complain about this extra work we have to do, and
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: I complain like it's like hm hmm, I wish I
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: could just be like, oh, yeah, I like that thing
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: that's mine, But you're right, it does. I have heard
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: from friends who have told me like, I like that,
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: I know that you do that. It makes me feel better.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: And that's not to say we've made mistakes. We've said
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: yes to things that later turned out to be terrible,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: and we try to learn from that and be like, Okay,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: not that one again, because a lot of times in
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: our company they'll be like, you said yes to it once,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: surely yes again. No, not always, but it is like,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: it is a lot of work, and I don't think
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: everyone has the time to do it, yea, or even
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: the emotional because we were talking about this the other day,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: like women typically or marginalized people typically are more drained
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: from what from the patriarchy, from white supremacy and all
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: this stuff.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: What's happening in the world.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe you don't have the time to vet
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: certain things. So I do think that is a value.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: I think that's something. I'm glad that you said that.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna you put a more positive spin on this
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: whole thing for me.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: And it comes from a place of privilege, right that
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: we I in particular, have the time to do this
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: research and can afford it. And that's what's really I
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: don't want to discount the privilege that I hold to
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: be really mindful as a as an agent of capitalism,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: because it's not Not everybody has this privilege. Not everybody
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: can afford to shop at, you know, small mom and
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: pop grocery stores because they are more expensive. If Amazon
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: and Walmart are what you can budget for, I am
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: fully supportive of that. You know, that is where you
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: are in your life in the society to society sucks, Like,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: don't feel bad if that's if that's where you are,
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Please don't feel bad. Shame is not a tool of
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: social justice, right, Like, that's not going to help anybody
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: for me to say, like you're shopping at Walmart. Hell yeah, like.
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: Some some people have to, And that's okay because I
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: do have a little bit more time and resources.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: I don't need to, but I am glad that it
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: exists for the people who need it. And that same
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: goes for every institution right that there are institutions that exist,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: there are stores that exist for the people who need it,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: and I'm glad they exist. Do I wish Do I
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: wish they had more ethical practices? Absolutely, But that's something
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: I can do with my resources, and my privilege is
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: to push back and to call, make the phone calls
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: and to say and demand better of these companies so
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: that they can continue to support underprivileged communities.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is true. I think about this every time
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: voting comes up, which, as you've probably heard, is rough
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: in Georgia. Is that like, I don't know how people
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: who have kids who work many jobs have the time
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: to vote but also have the time to research who
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: to vote for, because a lot of times it'll be
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: like I can't find information about any of this, so
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I guess this guy I don't know. So
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: that is a big conversation of It's frustrating because it's
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: like the Walmarts of the world are playing a part
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: and keeping us in this situation, but also they are
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: important because we are in the situation. It's it's frustrating,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean it is, especially you know, we're
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: in city, but when I was in the small town,
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: it's only game in town. That was like that was
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: it exactly same?
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in northern Indiana, and it's like,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: you got your groceries at Walmart, you bought your you know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: incidentals on Amazon. It's just what you do. There was
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: a Barnes and Noble, like that's that was the bookstore.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, and you go hang out there and you were cool.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you get your Starbucks. Yes, that's fine, fine,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: because that's what is aig and that's what is in
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: a budget. And yeah, I'm never going to be here
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: to shame somebody for doing what they need to do
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: to get by.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, thank you so much, Renee for coming on
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: here to spend the light. You are a friend. Officially, Yes,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: we could talk forever, but I suppose we should seriously
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: just to sign off for this one. But let's hang
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: out and just complain. I feel like I'm in a
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: complaining movie, which is rare for.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Me's a hobby that I have complaining that's less.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. Where can the
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: good listeners find you?
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: The best place to go is Feminist book Club dot com.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: We're on Instagram at your Feminist book Club because Feminist
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: book Club is taken on Instagram, but Feminist book Club
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: is available on TikTok, so you can find this Feminius
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: book Club on TikTok And uh, yeah, everything, everything's on
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: our website though, that's the best, the best place to go.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, And and you have show notes which I am
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: very jealous of.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: They're not but there what we have, so I'm very jealous.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, just go check it out listeners. It's amazing. Also,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: we will be on the show. We'll see how this goes.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to contact us,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: you can. Our email is stuff Adia mom Stuff at
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I Never told you. We have a tea public store
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: you can buy merch on there. Also we have a
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: book coming out well, you can reorder it as stuff
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: You should read books dot com. Thanks us always to
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: stuff I never told you. Inspection by heart Radio. For
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: more podcast in my heart Radio, you can check out
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts where you listen to
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: you Davish