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The US Did Not See China's Next Move Coming | Silk and Steel · UK Column Radio

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Speaker 1: Carl ja. He is host of Steel podcasts focused in
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Speaker 1: China and surrounding regions, their history, culture, politics. He has
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Speaker 1: a fantastic podcast if you're if you have any interest
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Speaker 1: in history in Chinese history, the podcast is Yours. That
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Speaker 1: is the podcast for you. Carl, speaking of China, the
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Speaker 1: Philippines is once again, it's it's wild to me and
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Speaker 1: I get this that the Philippines wouldn't do the stuff
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Speaker 1: without a blank check from the United States, basically either
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Speaker 1: a nudge or knowing full well that the United States
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Speaker 1: would effectively back them in anything that they do. But
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Speaker 1: they're effectively trying to declare an allen their's am I
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Speaker 1: getting us right?
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Speaker 2: Well? So what what happened is that the Philippine has
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Speaker 2: always been the lynchpin of US strategy to contain China,
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Speaker 2: except the United States have been kind of distracted at
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Speaker 2: the moment in the Strait or home moves. So what
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Speaker 2: US is trying to do is what they try to
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Speaker 2: do in Europe, trying to offload in Europe, they're trying
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Speaker 2: to offload onto their European allies a task containing Russia
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Speaker 2: via Ukraine and in Asia. US is trying to offload
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Speaker 2: the responsibility to Japan. So recently Japan and the Philippines
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Speaker 2: actually signed a marine time border agreement. But you know,
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Speaker 2: for anybody who look at a map, there's a giant
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Speaker 2: island that actually sits between Japan and the Philippines. The
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Speaker 2: island's name is Taiwan, right, So China was not happy
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Speaker 2: about that. And then the Philippine min politician proposed to
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Speaker 2: develop the northernmost part of what's under Philippine control at
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Speaker 2: the moment. The Batanas Island is a group of island
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Speaker 2: chain that's just sit across from Taiwan, across the Bashi Strait,
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Speaker 2: and he proposed that the United States and Japan could
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Speaker 2: deploy their missiles there, you know, like in case of
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Speaker 2: a war breakout over Taiwan. Of course that China did
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Speaker 2: not like that at all. And remember last time I
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Speaker 2: Won I was on your show, Jamar, we had this conversation. Okay,
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Speaker 2: you know you're saying, looks like the United States trying
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Speaker 2: to put miss outs in the Philippines. It looks like
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Speaker 2: this aim to China. I said, you know what, China
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Speaker 2: got this, You know it's China. China know how to
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Speaker 2: deal with the Philippines. China usually is more hesitant to
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Speaker 2: directly enter a confrontation with United States, but China never
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Speaker 2: hesitate to slap down the proxies. You know. We saw
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Speaker 2: that with the US initial deployment of the fat missile
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Speaker 2: system in South Korea in twenty sixteen. That led to
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Speaker 2: a nose type of China South Korea relations when China
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Speaker 2: basically sanctioned a lot of the South Korean firms. Now
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Speaker 2: with the Philippines, the Chinese skout dig out, A research
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Speaker 2: by a Taiwanese scholar two thousand and oh seven basically
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Speaker 2: questioned the Philippine sovereignty over batanis islands. And so this
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Speaker 2: whole group of islands is like the most northernmost of
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Speaker 2: the Philippine control territory, just sitting across Taiwan, and both
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Speaker 2: US and Japan has been discussing place missile there, you know,
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Speaker 2: anti ship missiles and other type of ballistic missiles and
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Speaker 2: tour China. But China said, are you sure you own
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Speaker 2: those island, Philippines. And the research by the Taiwanese scholar
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Speaker 2: back in two thousand oh seven actually dated found a
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Speaker 2: basically a troll war between Taiwan and the Philippines over
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Speaker 2: fishing rights because they have overlapping claims on exclusive economic
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Speaker 2: zones because the Bashi Straight is uh like like a
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Speaker 2: nation by on claws. So you went Convention of the
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Speaker 2: of the Sea, you can a nation can claim like
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Speaker 2: two hundred nahting miles from its sure as this exclusive
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Speaker 2: economic zone. Well, the case of Babashi Straight between Taiwan
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Speaker 2: and Philipine control Botana's island is that it's narrower than that,
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Speaker 2: so both both sides have the you know, if both
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Speaker 2: side extend to or unating miles, there is a lot
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Speaker 2: of overlapping claims. So at that time there was a
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Speaker 2: little bit of tension between the Philippines and the Taiwanese
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Speaker 2: Coast Guard. They were like, you know, arresting each other,
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Speaker 2: like Taiwan was arresting Filipino fishermen and all that. So
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Speaker 2: the Philippines, so the Taiwanese scholar start to question the
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Speaker 2: Filipino sovereignty over Batana's islands, like I don't think you
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Speaker 2: you really own those islands, and and it's actually pretty
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Speaker 2: valid the society international laws. So the Philippine territory was
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Speaker 2: originally defined by eighteen ninety a Treaty of Paris when
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Speaker 2: the United States defeated Spain in the Spanish American War.
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Speaker 2: That's when US got the colony of Spain in Cuba,
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Speaker 2: Puerto Rico, and the Philippines. And the Treaty of Nine
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Speaker 2: Paris in eighteen ninety eight define what Philippine is, and
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Speaker 2: at that time it defines everything south of the twentieth
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Speaker 2: twentieth parallel latitude. And guess what the Patinas is think
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Speaker 2: just happened to sit between the twentieth parallel and the
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Speaker 2: twenty first parallel, So it's beyond that. That treaty defined
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Speaker 2: territory of the Philippines. And now there was a amendment
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Speaker 2: in nineteen hundreds when United States realized, okay, some some
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Speaker 2: islands were kind of left off of the initial negotiation,
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Speaker 2: so they signed an additional treaty let me let me
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Speaker 2: finish in nineteen hundreds to define what those additional Philippine
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Speaker 2: islands might be, and specifically cited the islands of I
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Speaker 2: think Kagay and Zulu and a couple of other islands.
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Speaker 2: But you mentioned nothing about Batana's Island. So, in other words,
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Speaker 2: the Batana's Islands has never been officially accepted in the
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Speaker 2: recognized international treaties as part of the Philippines one part
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Speaker 2: of the Philippine side. They cited the claims like well, no, no, no,
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Speaker 2: no no, because Spain actually claimed those islands in the
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Speaker 2: seventeen eighty six and the Spain sent the expeditions subjugated
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Speaker 2: the lo cost, you know, like so that that granted
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Speaker 2: Spain the right to own the islands. What what happened
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Speaker 2: why those islands were left out because at that time
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Speaker 2: Japan had defeated China in the First Sino Japanese War
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Speaker 2: in eighteen eighteen ninety four eighteen ninety five, so China
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Speaker 2: was forced to see the island of Taiwan to the
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Speaker 2: Japanese Empire. So Japan also at that time trying to
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Speaker 2: negotiate with spaying about, you know, where each other territory lays.
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Speaker 2: They decided their boundary will be in the middle of
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Speaker 2: the Bashi straight. But the problem is at that time
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Speaker 2: the Spanish that didn't really really control those islands, right,
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Speaker 2: so they weren't actually sure, weren't actually sure where does
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Speaker 2: Batana's islands lay, whether they lay north of the twentieth
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Speaker 2: parallel or beyond that. This is why when they signed
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Speaker 2: the treaty with United States. You know, US specifically said
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Speaker 2: let's let's just set the boundary at the twentieth parallel
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Speaker 2: because we don't want to have overlapping claims with the Japanese.
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Speaker 2: You know, you know, we don't have one want to
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Speaker 2: have troubles with the Japanese. So so that's why use
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Speaker 2: Batana's islands were left out. But the Philippine side, they're like, wait, wait, wait,
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Speaker 2: but Spanish they claimed the islands, they subjegated local subjeguate natives.
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Speaker 2: And then they also cited the fact that in the
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Speaker 2: same year the Treaty of Paris was signed, a group
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Speaker 2: of revolutionaries on the islands they managed to kill the
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Speaker 2: Spanish governor in They managed to kill the Spanish governor
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Speaker 2: in September that year. So they say, well, okay, that means,
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Speaker 2: you know, it's part of the Philippines. They claimed back
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Speaker 2: from the Philippines. But now now this is the this
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Speaker 2: is the part about international treaties. Well, guess what, Spain
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Speaker 2: signed the Treaty of Paris with the United States in
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Speaker 2: December eighteen ninety eight. So Spanish governor was killed in
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Speaker 2: September eighteen ninety eight. Then Spain did not control those
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Speaker 2: islands at the time when they signed off the treaty
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Speaker 2: with the United States. You know, Spain did not control
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Speaker 2: the islands, and the islands were not signed over to
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Speaker 2: the United States either by treaty because the treaties said
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Speaker 2: the Philippine territory lays south of twentieth parallel, and Batana's
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Speaker 2: Island just happened to be north of those of the
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Speaker 2: twentieth parallel. And the amendment that United States did in
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Speaker 2: the nineteen hundreds to further define the territory of Philippines said, okay, okay,
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Speaker 2: we include all the islands. That's the spank control. So
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Speaker 2: in addition to the Treaty of Paris, these are the
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Speaker 2: other islands that needs to be added. And they added
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Speaker 2: the Kagayan, Zulu and couple named the couple other islands
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Speaker 2: in the south, but they did not name Batana's Island.
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Speaker 2: So by international law, it was never part of the
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Speaker 2: developing a territory. And basically the Taiwanese scholar did that
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Speaker 2: as a troll, you know, he was trolling the Philippines.
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Speaker 2: The Philippines over the fishing right dispute at that time
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Speaker 2: in two thousand seven. So then now the mainland. Chinese
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Speaker 2: scholar dug out that research, Like, wait a minute, what
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Speaker 2: do you mean you're gonna put miss outs on those islands.
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Speaker 2: You don't owe those islands you you have no rights
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Speaker 2: to put miss outs on those islands. So so now,
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Speaker 2: well this is not official yet. But actually I'm surprised
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Speaker 2: that these are the Chinese scholars are backed by you know,
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Speaker 2: their their official channels. So we're just one step away
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Speaker 2: from China officially like claim to those islands and uh
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Speaker 2: and you know, in order to deny Japan and United
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Speaker 2: States to be able to place miss out on those islands. So,
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Speaker 2: you know, for I think this is just funny. I mean,
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Speaker 2: for for myself, I think they should just have a
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Speaker 2: referendum and let the islanders themselves decide whether they want
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Speaker 2: to be the citizens, whether they want to be citizens
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Speaker 2: or the Republic of China or they want to be
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Speaker 2: the Republic of the Philippines. Let them decide. But that's
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Speaker 2: just me. Go ahead, who what okay.
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Speaker 1: What government are they under now? Or are they even
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Speaker 1: under a government at this point?
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Speaker 2: Well?
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Speaker 1: What now?
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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean it's Philippine administers those those islands.
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Speaker 2: But but but what what the what what the the
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Speaker 2: original Taiwanese claim and then now the Chinese challenge is
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Speaker 2: on the international legal basis that the Philippine has no
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Speaker 2: claim on those islands and UH and the islands group
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Speaker 2: the people who live on on those islands is actually
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Speaker 2: a UH their their own their own ethnic group, a
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Speaker 2: different from like the UH from the people who populate
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Speaker 2: the loos on islands in in you know, on the
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Speaker 2: main main island and their closest ethnic kN are actually
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Speaker 2: like indigenous Taiwanese uh natives uh living off the coast
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Speaker 2: of Taiwan. So anyway, anyway, so this is like I mean,
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Speaker 2: I think, I think those Chinese scholars are trolling, but
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Speaker 2: I mean the fact that they have official backing. We
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Speaker 2: could potentially see official Chinese claim to those islands in
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Speaker 2: order to deny US in Japan's rights to place missile
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Speaker 2: on those islands. So I mean, like like those things
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Speaker 2: are heating up, That's what I'm saying.
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Speaker 1: What would happen if they do make an official claim
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Speaker 1: to those balance? I mean, how would that process work?
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Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, well we saw, we saw what happened in Donbos, right,
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Speaker 2: there was a referendum and people voted to join Russia.
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Speaker 2: So why not have a referendum in those islands. Let
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Speaker 2: the people decide whether they want to be the citizen
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Speaker 2: of the republic, the People's Republic of China, or the
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Speaker 2: citizen of the Philippines. You know, I know if they
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Speaker 2: just voted to join China, there will be have ship
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Speaker 2: tons of Chinese money dropping on those islands develop his infrastructure.
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Speaker 2: So I'm just saying, I'm just throwing things out there.
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Speaker 1: Oh that's fascinating, And none of this would have taken
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Speaker 1: place if they wouldn't have later putting weapons on those Yes, well,
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Speaker 1: I mean talking about shooting yourself in the foot. The
13:14
Speaker 1: other story you bought was the moon? Look anything, Well.
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Speaker 2: Before the moon. Before the moon, let's talk about the
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Speaker 2: Chinese launch sub lunch ballistic missile into the Pacific Ocean. Now,
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Speaker 2: there is a big ruckus being raised by United States
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Speaker 2: and all the US vassal states in South Specific. I'm
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Speaker 2: talking about the Anglo five Eyed members like Australia and
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Speaker 2: New Zealand. They're like, oh my god, China just fire
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Speaker 2: a nuclear capable missile into the nuclear free zone of
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Speaker 2: South Specific. Well, first of all, like what they're talking
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Speaker 2: about the nuclear free zone is they're talking about a
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Speaker 2: Treaty of Ratanga that says no nuclear testing in this area. Well,
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Speaker 2: guess what, China did not fire a nuke into that area.
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Speaker 2: I mean the Treaty of niraratangas said nothing about ballistic
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Speaker 2: missile testing. He says no nuclear testing. China fire a
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Speaker 2: dommy warhead into that area. And the fact that you know,
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Speaker 2: I can tell you the number of times China had
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Speaker 2: launched ballistic missiles in South specific from time immemorial, from
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Speaker 2: the beginning of the human history until now. China have
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Speaker 2: fired three three missiles into that area. The first one
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Speaker 2: was ICBM back in the nineteen eight early nineteen eighties,
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Speaker 2: the last one was in twenty twenty four, and now
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Speaker 2: this is this last recent one. Guess how many times
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Speaker 2: United States have fired miss South in that area? Hundreds?
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Speaker 2: United States conducting hundreds of ICBM and sub lunch ballistic
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Speaker 2: missiles in that area. Never a peep, never a people
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Speaker 2: complain for Australia and New Zealand. Now China conducted third
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Speaker 2: tests and suddenly everybody is up in arms. Oh my god,
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Speaker 2: this is raising the tension. This is China is firing
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Speaker 2: a new clear capable missile into a new Clear free Zone.
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Speaker 2: It's like, look, man uh and I'll tell you why
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Speaker 2: China did that. This also happened to align with, you know,
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Speaker 2: ch US maneuver to contain China. I've had a debate
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Speaker 2: with Scott Ritter on this back in the days, you know,
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Speaker 2: like you know, for some reason like yes, yes, yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 2: yeah yes. So so at that time it was me
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Speaker 2: Scott Ritter and Alex Reporter ify we're talking about like
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Speaker 2: Chinese capabilities, you know, Like Alex was saying, oh, look
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Speaker 2: at ton Jing where I live now, Like there's the
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Speaker 2: factories are humming the China. China can pump up stuff
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Speaker 2: like like nothing, and Scott says, you know what, we
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Speaker 2: United States, we could bomb those those factories. I'm like, whoa, wha,
15:52
Speaker 2: wha wa wait a minute, you know even know where
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Speaker 2: Tonjin is. Tonjin is not even located on the coast,
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Speaker 2: It's located on the inland China. I don't think us
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Speaker 2: have any cabability of sending a B B two or
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Speaker 2: a bomber deep inside China to to to to drop
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Speaker 2: a load. I mean, I think that's a fantasy. But
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Speaker 2: but Scott Ritters are, well, what about what about we
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Speaker 2: we have. But guess what we have those quiet subs
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Speaker 2: lay on the bottom of South China Sea. What if
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Speaker 2: we do the first launch? You know what we what
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Speaker 2: if we strike first? Right? Well, guess what what China
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Speaker 2: has demonstrated is that China has second strike capability. You
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Speaker 2: know this, This this launch was from US Chinese sub
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Speaker 2: like these these, and Chinese China has been creating nuclear
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Speaker 2: subs like that. They're they're cranking out nuclear sub like
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Speaker 2: like dumplings in more recent years. I think this year
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Speaker 2: just they just made two two new additional ones. And
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Speaker 2: so these subs will be able to roam quietly across
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Speaker 2: the ocean, colded with nuclear capable missiles and then the
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Speaker 2: fire over a long distance. So what that means even
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Speaker 2: if US does a preemptive strike, even a nuclear strike
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Speaker 2: against targets in China, China is telling United States, Hey,
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Speaker 2: we possess second strike capability. Your ass will be nuked. Okay,
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Speaker 2: if you gotta bring war to China's footsteps, your ass
17:27
Speaker 2: can be nuked. And this is this is why there's
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Speaker 2: a widespread panic, right, I mean, like before they think
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Speaker 2: United States will be able to bomb and nuke China
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Speaker 2: with impunity. This is why there's even a talk about
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Speaker 2: a limited nuclear war like using a tactical nuclear missiles
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Speaker 2: against US, against Chinese naval basis on the island islands
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Speaker 2: and in the surrounding. So so China's like total horses. Look,
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Speaker 2: Matt Docrine is still in effect, right if you if
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Speaker 2: you dare to attack us, we will new Q. Don't
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Speaker 2: worry about it. Right, So this is this is a
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Speaker 2: reminder for for people. And because what China has tested
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Speaker 2: is not even a new capability. This is a ten
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Speaker 2: this uh, they have possession of that miss out for
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Speaker 2: over ten years. This is just a test. This is
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Speaker 2: a test, a demonstration of capability. Look, look we do
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Speaker 2: have the we do have the capability of second strike,
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Speaker 2: and we can new Q. That is a message China
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Speaker 2: we're trying to send. So and then of course that's
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Speaker 2: rough for a lot of feathers in Washington and and
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Speaker 2: be well.
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Speaker 1: Look, I will tell you this river is a cheerleader.
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Speaker 1: He's not if we are talking about specific things about
18:45
Speaker 1: the nuclear docment and stuff like that, fair enough, But
18:49
Speaker 1: the Ukraine War is not over. You cannot just randomly
18:54
Speaker 1: bombed and erga that he didn't know it's you know
18:57
Speaker 1: where it even was. And this idea that they can
19:00
Speaker 1: do tactical news and that would be the end of
19:03
Speaker 1: it is nonsense. A technical nuclear war is a nuclear war,
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Speaker 1: and it would escalate to a nuclear war improper, Like,
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Speaker 1: it's just outrageous that the argument would even be made.
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Speaker 1: Every military test that we've done where we attack China,
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Speaker 1: we lost, we lost. How are those ships even going
19:20
Speaker 1: to get close to the coast, like mean, it immediately
19:23
Speaker 1: esplates into nuclear war a conventional wars. Just yeah, that's
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Speaker 1: amazing to me that he was making that. I mean, well,
19:30
Speaker 1: maybe it's not amazing meat that it would make that case.
19:33
Speaker 1: That's just astonishing. I would say that a country decides
19:38
Speaker 1: in China obviously second strike capability. He didn't believe that.
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean at that time, you say, yeah, what
19:48
Speaker 2: if for US strike first? You know all this quiet
19:50
Speaker 2: US subs from South China Sea could launch missiles to
19:54
Speaker 2: or target in China. Well, China just show Well, okay,
19:57
Speaker 2: we could do the same. You know, like what's good
19:59
Speaker 2: for the goose is good for the gander. You can
20:01
Speaker 2: launch from your subs. We can launch from our subs.
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Speaker 2: You know, we are we are that we will be
20:05
Speaker 2: officially in the fall all territory. I'm a I'm an
20:08
Speaker 2: old gamer. I love Fallout series, and I remember one
20:13
Speaker 2: of the side plots of the Fall two game was
20:16
Speaker 2: a Chinese New Curve submarine after they fired their missiles,
20:20
Speaker 2: got stranding in San Francisco in the post the nuclear
20:24
Speaker 2: apocalypse America and the colonized San Francisco. So we are
20:28
Speaker 2: right on that timeline right now, Jamar, We're very close
20:31
Speaker 2: on the timeline.
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Speaker 1: Dismissile that I fired into the sea, Like you said,
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Speaker 1: this was testing old capability. This was more of a
20:40
Speaker 1: signal more than anything else. I mean, I would imagine
20:43
Speaker 1: China already knew the miss will work or did they
20:46
Speaker 1: know the missile work.
20:48
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I'm sure that they know the missile work worked.
20:51
Speaker 2: I mean, like that the real the they That's why
20:54
Speaker 2: they would fire tour international water, right because like otherwise
20:59
Speaker 2: they could just like fire I don't know somehow. And
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Speaker 2: that's another thing, you know, like for for China to test,
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Speaker 2: it's a long range you know, ICBMs and stuff uh
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Speaker 2: where else with China fire like you know, like Russia
21:18
Speaker 2: could potentially you know, do it within territory because Russia
21:21
Speaker 2: is really big. But China. China as big as China is,
21:25
Speaker 2: you know, China is about the size of the United States.
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Speaker 2: Uh And and if they're gonna test an ICBM or
21:32
Speaker 2: something like that, you will have to go to international waters,
21:37
Speaker 2: you know, just no place house.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, obviously the United States, Australia, New Zealand don't
21:43
Speaker 1: have home to blame a bitch about this. And this
21:46
Speaker 1: is not about fairness, It's about power. Basically, we don't
21:50
Speaker 1: want China demonstrating methods of strength. That's up to us
21:56
Speaker 1: to do right, but we want to do that. We
21:59
Speaker 1: don't want them. This is it's like the lady protests
22:03
Speaker 1: far too much. The lady protests far too much. And
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Speaker 1: to be honest, China doesn't care that they're complaining, right
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Speaker 1: or do that?
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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's expected, you know, I think
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Speaker 2: China expected the pushback. You know, speaking of lady protect
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Speaker 2: testing too much. Well, may lady May Lindsay grand rest
22:24
Speaker 2: in peace.
22:28
Speaker 1: Yes, Lindsey Grahams piece. We have been saying some bad
22:42
Speaker 1: things about Miss Lindsay since since his death. What's funny,
22:47
Speaker 1: We've had all sorts of rumors. One rumor that I
22:50
Speaker 1: created was that when he went to Ukraine. He saw
22:53
Speaker 1: those sexy Ukrainian men, those sexy Nazis, and there with
22:57
Speaker 1: their tight butocks, and there was military go and he
23:00
Speaker 1: his heart just couldn't take it.
23:03
Speaker 2: Well. Well, I actually actually the last public release news
23:08
Speaker 2: about Lindsay Graham before the announcement of his death though
23:12
Speaker 2: he visited a Ukrainian juone factory, the Skyfall Jolt factory,
23:16
Speaker 2: and that factory was later bombed by Russian missiles. We
23:21
Speaker 2: know that jone factory was destroyed, and now we have
23:24
Speaker 2: the news that Lindsay Graham is somehow a sudden illness.
23:28
Speaker 2: I mean, what is the possibility, what is the possibility
23:32
Speaker 2: that the sun the Lindsay Graham suddenly scummed to a
23:36
Speaker 2: sudden illness called the Russian is gonder missiles up the
23:41
Speaker 2: ass and what is that? I'm just throwing it out there.
23:44
Speaker 2: I don't know.
23:46
Speaker 1: Oh, that is funny. He died from a sudden Russian
23:53
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I looked between those two theories. He was
23:57
Speaker 1: in Ukraine and his heart can't take sexy Nazis in
24:01
Speaker 1: their uniforms, or he got taken out by a Russian
24:04
Speaker 1: missile and they just called it a cardiac event. I
24:07
Speaker 1: bet he did have a cardiac event as a missile, right.
24:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm sure.
24:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, Russians, Miss missus Lindsay died of. A sassy senator
24:20
Speaker 1: from South Carolina died of you know, yeah, it's pretty wild.
24:24
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up because we have been
24:27
Speaker 1: riffing on that.
24:28
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I'm sure his his family and his children
24:31
Speaker 2: won't miss him. Oh wait, oh wait, yeah, it doesn't
24:36
Speaker 2: have children anyways, move on to the movie.
24:42
Speaker 1: Ted brought up. He was like, who made the phone call?
24:47
Speaker 1: Who made the call? Like, meaning, when the cops got
24:50
Speaker 1: to the house, the house door was locked, who made
24:54
Speaker 1: the call to let them know that Miss Lindsay was
24:57
Speaker 1: having a cardiacdent?
25:00
Speaker 2: Oh?
25:01
Speaker 1: I think that interesting. I think that interesting. It's possible
25:07
Speaker 1: that Lindsey was engaged in let's say, activities and befitting
25:15
Speaker 1: of a US center. But that's not true. There's a
25:18
Speaker 1: graph to do whatever he wants. Look, because he's gay,
25:22
Speaker 1: I'm joking it. Because he's a Republican. They can't acknowledge
25:25
Speaker 1: that he's gay.
25:27
Speaker 2: There was there, you know, you saw that viral clip
25:30
Speaker 2: when I fuck out, which journalist said, can you just
25:33
Speaker 2: come out of the closet, so people can't blame blackmail you.
25:39
Speaker 1: That's the sad part. He didn't. He didn't, he didn't
25:42
Speaker 1: think he could do it as a Republican. I just said, right,
25:48
Speaker 1: it's like you lived your whole life in the closet
25:51
Speaker 1: and everybody knows, but nobody says.
25:54
Speaker 2: And yet yeah, I mean now we have like openly
25:58
Speaker 2: gay republic oligarchs like Peter Theo. Now, you know, back
26:02
Speaker 2: in Trump, it's like, come on, Lindsay is twenty twenty six.
26:05
Speaker 2: It's okay, let it go, you know, just so people
26:08
Speaker 2: can't blackmail you anymore. You know, just let it out
26:10
Speaker 2: in the open. It's okay, you can't. You can be
26:14
Speaker 2: an evil gay Republican. It's okay, it's okay.
26:20
Speaker 1: Like look, and again I want to be very clear.
26:22
Speaker 1: We're not mocking him because he's gay. We're marking him
26:24
Speaker 1: because he doesn't admit that he's gay.
26:26
Speaker 2: Well, because no, and he's evil and his evil I
26:29
Speaker 2: mean like like, let's yeah, yeah, he's an evil human being.
26:34
Speaker 2: So he's not evil because he's gay. He's where he is.
26:38
Speaker 2: He's gay, but he's evil. That that's it's a difference. Right,
26:42
Speaker 2: So we're we're mocking him because he's evil and he deny,
26:46
Speaker 2: he deny the fact he's gay.
26:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little bit of boat right, Yeah, the
26:51
Speaker 1: evil thing more so, but the fact that he just
26:54
Speaker 1: can't acknowledge that. It's just what after thirty years in
26:59
Speaker 1: congres however long us in Congress. No, it's sad. It's
27:03
Speaker 1: sad that he didn't feel like he could come out
27:04
Speaker 1: the closet. And like I said, there's a question of
27:07
Speaker 1: who call the cops because when the cops got there,
27:10
Speaker 1: the door was locked, so it was literally having a tryst.
27:15
Speaker 1: The twists went bad. He couldn't take it, but gave up.
27:19
Speaker 1: The guy says, holy shit, I haven't did send it?
27:23
Speaker 1: Or what do I do? Let me call the cops,
27:25
Speaker 1: so let me get out of here. Oh, so many questions,
27:29
Speaker 1: so many questions. I'm glad you put it up. I
27:33
Speaker 1: needed a laugh this morning. Let's talk about the moon
27:36
Speaker 1: thing before you. Oh yeah, we got time. I am
27:40
Speaker 1: fascinated by space stuff. And when China went to the
27:43
Speaker 1: dark side of the moon this speak by address. I
27:46
Speaker 1: don't know if you know who Ingo Swan is. So
27:53
Speaker 1: Ingle Swan was one of the US psychics because we
27:56
Speaker 1: had official psychics in the US government, and Ingo Swan
27:59
Speaker 1: was one of the first. He was one who trained.
28:01
Speaker 1: We started doing a program because the Russians were doing
28:04
Speaker 1: it with Soviets at the time, and the US was
28:06
Speaker 1: wondering if there was anything to it, and so we
28:09
Speaker 1: started found Ingle Swan Inglis Swan created the Remote un
28:13
Speaker 1: program for the US government. You have people like mc monagle,
28:16
Speaker 1: pet Price, all of these people were just astonishing. One
28:19
Speaker 1: of the things that these people pointed out was there's
28:22
Speaker 1: a base on the Moon. Now, this, obviously it's kind
28:28
Speaker 1: of explosive. This was something that was kind of the
28:31
Speaker 1: psychic program, and so it piqued my interests when people
28:35
Speaker 1: go to the moon. You have the UFU files that
28:38
Speaker 1: were released talked about the astronauts where they were basically
28:41
Speaker 1: seeing something when they were on the Moon. So when
28:44
Speaker 1: China's like, we went to the dark side of the Moon,
28:46
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, this is great. And when I hear
28:49
Speaker 1: people talking about moon bases and created moon bases with Russia,
28:52
Speaker 1: talking about a reactor, et cetera, my ears pop up.
28:57
Speaker 2: What's going on with this?
28:58
Speaker 1: So China is going back to the Moon, but why
29:00
Speaker 1: then they're talking about staying for a period of time
29:03
Speaker 1: or did I get that more?
29:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, China has a their schedule is twenty thirty, twenty thirty,
29:10
Speaker 2: which which officially is behind the United States official announced
29:16
Speaker 2: schedule to return to the Moon by twenty twenty eight.
29:19
Speaker 2: But you know that NASA's schedule is more politically motivated.
29:22
Speaker 2: They will They chose twenty twenty eight so they can
29:25
Speaker 2: they can say they're going to do it within within
29:28
Speaker 2: the Trump presidency, you know, to get Trump support, more
29:32
Speaker 2: funding fund Trump. But I don't I don't think that
29:36
Speaker 2: they're gonna be I don't think NASA is gonna be
29:39
Speaker 2: uh on their schedule. Yeah, artemist mission twenty twenty eight.
29:46
Speaker 2: They still stick by their day twenty twenty eight, even
29:49
Speaker 2: though they have so many delays, right, they still have
29:52
Speaker 2: not change shifted out the timeline because twenty two A
29:56
Speaker 2: that's you know, the last days of Trump presidency. They
29:59
Speaker 2: got to they gotta keep it within the within the
30:02
Speaker 2: Trump administration to get their get get the support. Uh.
30:05
Speaker 2: But I you know, I I think there's a realistic
30:09
Speaker 2: chance we're gonna see China get to the Moon before
30:12
Speaker 2: NASA does.
30:14
Speaker 1: Uh.
30:14
Speaker 2: And China does have a have a moon mission, and
30:17
Speaker 2: and lately. They China just had another breakthrough. They become
30:21
Speaker 2: the second nation to successfully test out a reusable rocket booster.
30:27
Speaker 2: Their law march can be uh reusable uh rocket booster.
30:33
Speaker 2: They just were able to successfully capture it. And see
30:36
Speaker 2: you know this is after space X and uh and
30:40
Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos Blue Origin and and they did it by
30:44
Speaker 2: a different method as well. You know, like there's so
30:47
Speaker 2: many kopiums on X's like, oh, China stow our intellectual property.
30:52
Speaker 2: They stole are designed. I'm like, are you freaking blind?
30:56
Speaker 2: China used like a missmatch of nets and cables to
31:00
Speaker 2: catch a catch a booster. It's like very is completely
31:04
Speaker 2: different design from the SpaceX chopstick of catching the starship
31:10
Speaker 2: right yeah, or the Falcon they just land with a
31:14
Speaker 2: with a lander with a landing gear that the land.
31:17
Speaker 2: China just have they have these like it's like a
31:20
Speaker 2: net when the when the rocket goes down, they they
31:26
Speaker 2: shift the net to catch the rocket. So it's a
31:28
Speaker 2: completely different design. Uh. But now I see people like
31:32
Speaker 2: to say, oh, but this is a this is This
31:35
Speaker 2: design officially came out on a Reddit post four years ago.
31:40
Speaker 2: Come on, guys, come on, you think you think China
31:45
Speaker 2: saw the Reddit post four years ago and was able
31:48
Speaker 2: to to like manufacture everything and everything working in four years.
31:52
Speaker 2: That's even more impressive, you know if that were chew
31:55
Speaker 2: imagine but anyway, so, but but people, people just don't
31:59
Speaker 2: want to believe that China have, you know, pursues there
32:02
Speaker 2: in the only independent path of innovation uh and and
32:06
Speaker 2: particularly at the time of Space X I p O right,
32:12
Speaker 2: because you know, one reason for space I p O
32:16
Speaker 2: and this ridiculous evaluation is Elon Musk's claim, like the
32:21
Speaker 2: only one can do it. I'm you know, only space
32:23
Speaker 2: x I, only me can get people to the Moon,
32:26
Speaker 2: to the Mars, and and and space x is the
32:29
Speaker 2: only game in town. And now China, China suddenly said,
32:32
Speaker 2: oh we can do it too. And you know, based
32:34
Speaker 2: on past experience, once China figures something out, they will
32:38
Speaker 2: commodify it. They will they will make everything so cheap
32:42
Speaker 2: it's basically become a commodity. You know, like we should
32:45
Speaker 2: probably just give China few years before they will be
32:48
Speaker 2: able to like compete, uh commercially against the Space Act
32:54
Speaker 2: in terms of launching costs.
32:57
Speaker 1: Man, I hate, I got to be honest with you.
33:00
Speaker 1: Take this idea that as countries. We are in competition
33:03
Speaker 1: of this stuff.
33:04
Speaker 2: I really, we didn't have to. We didn't have to
33:09
Speaker 2: because China actually applied to join the International Space Station project.
33:14
Speaker 2: United States was the one that specifically denied China's requests,
33:19
Speaker 2: and US passed the Wolf I think it's called Wolf Amendment,
33:23
Speaker 2: which prohibits NASA from co operating with China any space
33:28
Speaker 2: related activities. Right, So so this is on the United States.
33:33
Speaker 2: This is completely on US government. US government said no, no, no,
33:37
Speaker 2: we don't. We don't want China in space. We don't
33:39
Speaker 2: want China on the International Space Station. So China said, okay,
33:42
Speaker 2: you know what, that's fine, we will build our own
33:44
Speaker 2: space station. So well, the International Space Station is way
33:49
Speaker 2: past its you know, exploration date, and as long as
33:56
Speaker 2: you know, they can try to extend this lifespan as
33:59
Speaker 2: long as one, but that thing will have to come
34:02
Speaker 2: down in a few years. By then, the Chinese Space
34:05
Speaker 2: station will be the only game in town in space.
34:09
Speaker 2: And you know, guess what you know, like you know,
34:12
Speaker 2: like the United States, they have to EQRO. They either
34:16
Speaker 2: they come to their senses and beg to be allowed
34:20
Speaker 2: down the Chinese space International Space Station, or they can
34:24
Speaker 2: wait like I don't know, twenty years to build another one.
34:30
Speaker 1: That just sucks. I don't want the world to look
34:32
Speaker 1: like the expense, that's all. And I feel like that's
34:34
Speaker 1: where we're headed. Were like private business in space with
34:40
Speaker 1: competing interests in all of this other stuff. But I
34:43
Speaker 1: suppose that's where we're going. I mean, this is China
34:47
Speaker 1: talked about like Mars mission or anything like that.
34:50
Speaker 2: Well no, I mean, China is focused on the Moon
34:53
Speaker 2: for right now. For simple reason, it's a lot closer.
34:56
Speaker 2: I mean, like, you know, must say, let's forget about
34:59
Speaker 2: the Moon on that before this, just go straight to
35:01
Speaker 2: the Mars. Well okay, I mean it's good, it's good
35:03
Speaker 2: to dream. But for China's party, they want capability. And
35:10
Speaker 2: China have a very concrete plan. They want to establish
35:13
Speaker 2: a Moon base and they want to be able to
35:15
Speaker 2: establish lunar mining operations, so they will be start doing
35:21
Speaker 2: space mining and to be shipping those critical minerals from
35:24
Speaker 2: the Moon and back to back to Earth.
35:27
Speaker 1: You know, I I.
35:29
Speaker 2: Have I think China have pretty good credibility. You know,
35:32
Speaker 2: I think if the planet, I think it will happen.
35:36
Speaker 2: You know, it's just a matter of time.
35:38
Speaker 1: Well, they have a technical capability any damn sure and
35:42
Speaker 1: industrial base to do it. So if they say they're
35:46
Speaker 1: going to do it, I'm assuming they're going to do it,
35:49
Speaker 1: not to mention the political will. If the political willill there,
35:52
Speaker 1: they can pull it off. So no, that's going to
35:54
Speaker 1: be momentous. I mean, look, from my point of view,
35:57
Speaker 1: I look at this stuff as human development. Is theirly
36:00
Speaker 1: development for one particular country. When it's dealing with stuff
36:04
Speaker 1: in space, it's human achievement. It's the way I see it.
36:08
Speaker 1: I know most people in this country it's not going
36:10
Speaker 1: to look at it that way, but that's kind of
36:11
Speaker 1: the way I see this.
36:13
Speaker 2: Is either way. In China, I want to point out
36:16
Speaker 2: in China, Chinese people do celebrate Elon Musk's success with
36:21
Speaker 2: space X because that they saw the same way you
36:24
Speaker 2: saw it. They saw it as human endeavor, like it's
36:27
Speaker 2: achievement for humanity. So they cheer for Ela Musk, and
36:31
Speaker 2: they also cheer for China's own space program. But in
36:35
Speaker 2: the United States, all these Elon Musk fanboys, they hate it.
36:40
Speaker 2: Every time China does something, you know, China has to
36:43
Speaker 2: steal that technology or somehow they cheated, you know, like
36:47
Speaker 2: they will never catch up and they're just so much
36:50
Speaker 2: copying a brought I'm like, why, like Elon Musk right now,
36:54
Speaker 2: still maintain a lead over China because SpaceX do have
36:58
Speaker 2: ten years of experience which relaunchable rockets. China is still
37:05
Speaker 2: playing catch up? Why but why are you so sour
37:08
Speaker 2: about this? Why are you so sour about China being
37:10
Speaker 2: able to catch up? Well, I think one is that
37:14
Speaker 2: space at Xipo, there are people who are actually have
37:19
Speaker 2: money on the line, and to you know, just too
37:23
Speaker 2: is just playing plame o racism. Right, It's like, Okay,
37:27
Speaker 2: we don't want these chi.
37:30
Speaker 1: I mean, like, look at what happened with AI where
37:34
Speaker 1: we like view It's and all of these companies spends
37:37
Speaker 1: like what it's like a five hundred billion dollars or something,
37:41
Speaker 1: some insane amount of money on data centers and AI
37:45
Speaker 1: companies and all of this stuff, and then China leap frogs,
37:50
Speaker 1: maybe not necessarily ahead of those companies. But you don't
37:53
Speaker 1: need something to be perfect. You needed to be good
37:56
Speaker 1: enough to do a job. And for the overwhelming majority
37:59
Speaker 1: of people around the world, the Chinese AI is more
38:04
Speaker 1: than sufficient to do the job. And it's open source
38:07
Speaker 1: in a way that the United States is not. And
38:09
Speaker 1: with the US with trunk, what is it entropic where
38:12
Speaker 1: you put the kibosh one anthrop it which effectively damage
38:15
Speaker 1: all of these companies around the world all at once,
38:17
Speaker 1: meaning they didn't control something that they were used that
38:20
Speaker 1: was integral to the way that their companies function. Okay, well,
38:23
Speaker 1: you've immediately effectively gave a sales pitch the Chinese AI
38:29
Speaker 1: from doing that, now all of those people have money
38:31
Speaker 1: on the line. Those people are going to lose their shirts.
38:34
Speaker 1: So then you look at space stuff and you think
38:36
Speaker 1: of as you point out all the fanboids to put
38:38
Speaker 1: their money into spaces based purely upon elamus because that's
38:43
Speaker 1: all it's about, right, we trust must. Okay, with the
38:47
Speaker 1: moment that you see China doing that, you're thinking to yourself,
38:50
Speaker 1: am I going to lose my shirt? So no, I
38:56
Speaker 1: think their issue is a few things. I don't know
38:59
Speaker 1: how they do it in China. But in the United
39:01
Speaker 1: States we look at countries as enemies, like we foster that.
39:06
Speaker 1: Like the media wouldn't say it openly, but the way
39:10
Speaker 1: the media will put it would be to give an
39:12
Speaker 1: impression that enemies bad, negative evil, et cetera. And so
39:17
Speaker 1: at the point where China does something as opposed to saying, hey,
39:20
Speaker 1: this is breaking human achievement. It's put in the lens
39:23
Speaker 1: of the sinister government is doing something sinister. It's just
39:29
Speaker 1: it's the way it functions here. That's the way it
39:31
Speaker 1: functions here. It's so messed up. Carl, you are fantastic.
39:36
Speaker 1: I always enjoy these conversations. I always have fun with
39:38
Speaker 1: these conversations, and know when you're my first guests in
39:41
Speaker 1: the morning because it gets me up. Yeah, and so no, man,
39:46
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, and I want you to have a
39:48
Speaker 1: great rest of your night. Carl Jacques Carl Jah talking
39:53
Speaker 1: about the moon. Carl Ja is host of Silk and
39:57
Speaker 1: Steel podcasts focused on China and the surrounding regents, their history, culture, politics.
40:02
Speaker 1: You can follow follow Carl on Twitter at Carl Jah.
40:05
Speaker 1: You can follow the podcast on Twitter at Steel Silk In,
40:09
Speaker 1: and you can subscribe and support their podcast on Patreon
40:12
Speaker 1: dot com slash Silk and Steal. Carl. Enjoy the rest
40:17
Speaker 1: of your night, man, Thank you for this.
40:20
Speaker 2: Thank you.
40:22
Speaker 1: All right? All right? Shut out to Carl, shut out
40:27
Speaker 1: to Carl