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From dust to dust: Is human composting the new way to bury the dead? · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: For decades now. If a loved one died, there were
• 0:07
  S1: two choices burial or cremation. But soon, Australians may get
• 0:12
  S1: a third choice for how they choose to farewell their
• 0:15
  S1: loved ones, thanks to a growing trend overseas. I'm Samantha
• 0:20
  S1: Selinger Morris and you're listening to Morning Edition from The
• 0:23
  S1: Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, senior writer Bevan
• 0:28
  S1: Shields on human composting, a method of burial that may
• 0:32
  S1: give you the ick, but that is giving many others
• 0:35
  S1: profound peace of mind. It's June the 22nd. Bevan, welcome
• 0:52
  S1: back to the podcast.
• 0:53
  S2: Always a pleasure to talk to you.
• 0:55
  S1: Okay. Bevan, we've got to get into this because there's
• 0:57
  S1: a growing trend overseas in human burial. And this is
• 1:01
  S1: human composting. Now, is it like it says? Is it
• 1:05
  S1: is it like it sounds?
• 1:06
  S2: It is. You know, for so long we have really
• 1:09
  S2: only had two options burial or cremation. This is a
• 1:14
  S2: third option that has emerged in the US and Germany.
• 1:17
  S2: And as you say, it's growing in popularity and it's
• 1:20
  S2: exactly as it sounds. So when I've been talking to
• 1:24
  S2: people about this story for the last past few weeks,
• 1:28
  S2: the initial instinct is yes. Oh, do you mean do
• 1:32
  S2: you mean human composting? Is that what you're actually talking about?
• 1:35
  S2: Composting bodies and. Yes. And the answer is yes. Usually
• 1:38
  S2: the initial response is what? And then after a little
• 1:42
  S2: while of explaining how it works, people do get their
• 1:45
  S2: head around it and it makes sense. So in its
• 1:48
  S2: simplest terms, what happens is a body is placed in
• 1:53
  S2: what's called a vessel. It's a large steel tube. It's
• 1:57
  S2: placed on a bed of organic materials, so hay, straw
• 2:02
  S2: and wood chips and it sealed in the vessel. Heat
• 2:07
  S2: is turned up to between 55 and 70 degrees for
• 2:11
  S2: three days minimum, sometimes longer, and then over the next
• 2:14
  S2: two months, the body slowly breaks down and composts. Air
• 2:17
  S2: is pushed into the vessel, air goes out and is
• 2:21
  S2: treated and released. The vessels in some providers are turned
• 2:26
  S2: 360 degrees once a week to aid in the composting process.
• 2:31
  S2: Others rock them from side to side. So there's some movement.
• 2:34
  S2: And then at the end of that time, really all
• 2:37
  S2: that's left are bones. And the bones are then crushed
• 2:41
  S2: up in the same way as occurs in cremation and
• 2:45
  S2: put back into the mixture. It then cures for several
• 2:48
  S2: more weeks. And at the end of this process, usually
• 2:51
  S2: 2 or 3 months, you have a lot of soil.
• 2:55
  S2: And I've been speaking to people who have had family
• 2:58
  S2: members go through this process, and they've all been amazed
• 3:01
  S2: by actually how much soil there is at the end
• 3:03
  S2: of this. It's basically a trailer load full of soil. Yeah.
• 3:06
  S2: Between the body and the organic material that's placed in
• 3:10
  S2: the vessel. So this is not a small little urn
• 3:13
  S2: of soil. It is a lot.
• 3:16
  S1: Okay, well, let's get into the people who are choosing
• 3:18
  S1: to do this because you have spoken to a number
• 3:20
  S1: of them. So why are people choosing this?
• 3:22
  S2: There are lots of different reasons. Environmental is one. There
• 3:27
  S2: is something that resonates with these people about being returned
• 3:31
  S2: to the earth, depending on your perspective on this thing.
• 3:34
  S2: A lot of people have a perspective that we're basically
• 3:36
  S2: organic matter. That's all we are. We came from the earth.
• 3:39
  S2: Your return to the earth. So there's that theory. There's
• 3:43
  S2: also a climate and emissions element to this. So cremation,
• 3:48
  S2: even though it's wildly popular, it's nearly 75% of of
• 3:52
  S2: the market in Sydney at the moment. If I can
• 3:54
  S2: use that term, It's not great for the environment. It
• 3:58
  S2: uses a huge amount of energy. One cremation uses enough
• 4:01
  S2: gas to power a single person household for a month.
• 4:05
  S2: That's just one cremation. Now, I'm not making any judgment
• 4:08
  S2: on people who are having cremation. That's fine, but it
• 4:11
  S2: is a fairly carbon intensive process. There is also some
• 4:15
  S2: environmental drawbacks of burials. If embalming fluid is used, that's
• 4:20
  S2: not great for the environment. Huge, huge amount of wood
• 4:24
  S2: is used for coffins every year. So in America, for instance,
• 4:28
  S2: there aren't really any Australian statistics for this, unfortunately. But
• 4:32
  S2: in America each year there needs to be 30 million
• 4:35
  S2: board feet, and a board feet is basically a piece
• 4:38
  S2: of timber, one foot long and wide and one inch
• 4:41
  S2: deep of hardwood to make the coffins. Then there's 1.6
• 4:45
  S2: million tons of concretes that make up vaults and 90,000
• 4:50
  S2: tons of steel for caskets. So again, look in the
• 4:53
  S2: broader scheme of emissions. The funeral industry is a small component.
• 4:57
  S2: I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but
• 5:00
  S2: this is a factor for some people that they're very
• 5:02
  S2: conscious of. Another really interesting element, and we can talk
• 5:06
  S2: about some of these examples later, is there's a grieving
• 5:10
  S2: element to this. And that is that unlike burial or cremation,
• 5:14
  S2: you know, you have a death, a funeral and burial
• 5:17
  S2: or cremation in very short succession. It's a lot. It's
• 5:20
  S2: a lot for everyone to deal with, often in the
• 5:22
  S2: space of a week or two. The big difference with
• 5:25
  S2: human composting is it takes 2 to 3 months. So
• 5:28
  S2: there's this gap between a funeral saying goodbye and then
• 5:33
  S2: being handed the soil back. Um, and we'll talk about
• 5:37
  S2: what what the soil is often used for, but the
• 5:40
  S2: people I've spoken to have said that window, that time
• 5:43
  S2: has given them more time to grieve, to process what
• 5:47
  S2: has happened, to really think and plan what they're going
• 5:50
  S2: to do with this soil then they would have otherwise had. If,
• 5:53
  S2: you know, they rushed straight into a burial or cremation.
• 5:57
  S2: In some cases in the US, family members are able
• 6:01
  S2: to go to the site and to visit the vessel
• 6:05
  S2: as it is slowly turning and the composting is happening.
• 6:08
  S2: I've seen photos of pictures being placed on the outside
• 6:12
  S2: of it. Someone told me the other day that a
• 6:15
  S2: husband of a woman who was being composted would usually
• 6:18
  S2: go once a day and have a cup of tea
• 6:20
  S2: there each day. And again, that 2 or 3 month
• 6:23
  S2: window just gave people a bit of time and space
• 6:25
  S2: to to grieve before then making the decision about what
• 6:29
  S2: to do with with the material.
• 6:31
  S3: Well, let's talk about what.
• 6:32
  S1: People are doing with it, because one of the really
• 6:34
  S1: fascinating anecdotes you got was of a person who used
• 6:39
  S1: their loved one's remains for gardening. So tell us. That's incredible.
• 6:45
  S2: So this is the case of a man named Wayne Dodge,
• 6:49
  S2: who was a Seattle physician and lifelong gardener mad gardener.
• 6:53
  S2: He was absolutely obsessed with Japanese maple trees. He had
• 6:57
  S2: about 50 of them in his backyard. He had a
• 7:00
  S2: big gardening network in Seattle. He died in 2021 from
• 7:03
  S2: complications as a result of a really severe spinal injury.
• 7:08
  S2: He absolutely wanted to be composted. He went through that process,
• 7:12
  S2: and I spoke to Wayne's sister, Marie.
• 7:15
  S4: It's it's lovely. Even though it's in, you know, the
• 7:18
  S4: the process itself is kind of industrial because they put
• 7:21
  S4: the body in a container and you layer in natural
• 7:26
  S4: organic material with it. Wayne had granddaughters. They gathered wildflowers.
• 7:31
  S4: We were able to bring the wildflowers and have them
• 7:34
  S4: laid in with him. And so they made it very personal. And.
• 7:38
  S2: Um, basically at the end of the process, they turned
• 7:41
  S2: up with kind of a pick up truck. They had
• 7:44
  S2: the soil loaded into it. They drove back to the
• 7:48
  S2: house and all of Wayne's gardening Friends and friends came
• 7:51
  S2: along and they got a bucket each. They took a
• 7:54
  S2: bucket of the soil. They took one of the 50
• 7:56
  S2: maple trees that was in his backyard, and they took
• 7:59
  S2: it off to their own yards and either put it
• 8:01
  S2: in the maple trees or put it in their own garden.
• 8:03
  S2: And Marie, I spoke to Marie. She was so thoughtful
• 8:07
  S2: and emotional about what having some of Wayne in her
• 8:12
  S2: own backyard meant to her.
• 8:13
  S4: And I brought some here, and then I put put
• 8:17
  S4: them in my garden. So every time I go out
• 8:19
  S4: and garden, I say hello to him. It was it
• 8:22
  S4: was a beautiful process. It was beautiful.
• 8:24
  S2: She said it meant that, you know, she didn't have
• 8:26
  S2: to say goodbye to him. He was always there with
• 8:29
  S2: her in her own house, a space where she felt comfortable.
• 8:32
  S2: And that really, really meant a lot for her, for her.
• 8:35
  S2: So that's one example. And there are a lot of
• 8:37
  S2: others on the whole, families picking up the material, taking
• 8:42
  S2: it to spread on a tree, sharing it amongst themselves. Uh, if,
• 8:47
  S2: if they don't want to do that. Another option is
• 8:50
  S2: that some of these providers who are doing the composting
• 8:52
  S2: have arrangements with parks and Landcare regeneration projects where the
• 8:57
  S2: soil can go. To that case. I saw one example
• 9:01
  S2: of where the soil was spread around Mount Saint Helens,
• 9:04
  S2: which was the volcano that erupted a couple of decades
• 9:07
  S2: ago and devastated the region and the natural wilderness and
• 9:11
  S2: the soil ended up there. So lots of different lots
• 9:14
  S2: of different uses with this.
• 9:16
  S1: But I guess you could you could pair your loved
• 9:18
  S1: one's composted remains with something they love, right? Like, like
• 9:21
  S1: with the gardening, like are people scattering the compost in
• 9:24
  S1: the ocean? Is that legal? I don't know, look.
• 9:26
  S2: Well, in the same way as cremation, there aren't really
• 9:30
  S2: any hard and fast rules around this. Well, we'll come
• 9:33
  S2: to the Catholic Church, but cremation is there's lots of
• 9:38
  S2: different ways that people use cremated remains. And in some
• 9:42
  S2: ways this is no different. The soil is very is
• 9:45
  S2: very nutrient rich. It's safe. There are some safeguards around
• 9:49
  S2: people who have very high level infectious diseases can't go
• 9:52
  S2: through this process. But the soil is, you know, once
• 9:56
  S2: you get over the initial kind of, oh, this was
• 9:58
  S2: once a person. The material itself is actually safe, nutrient rich,
• 10:03
  S2: and very good for where it's used.
• 10:05
  S1: And presumably the soil we engage with. And other like
• 10:07
  S1: if gardeners, I mean, presumably there's all kinds of matter, right?
• 10:10
  S1: Like organic matter, animal.
• 10:11
  S2: And in some ways this has been happening to a,
• 10:14
  S2: to a less sophisticated degree on farms for decades. Yeah. Right.
• 10:19
  S2: Where there are animals that are, you know, they're not buried,
• 10:23
  S2: they're put with other material and they slowly break down.
• 10:27
  S2: So I don't want to compare people to animals, but
• 10:30
  S2: but it's a.
• 10:31
  S1: Biological.
• 10:31
  S2: Level. Yeah. And so I spoke to Katrina Spade, who
• 10:34
  S2: really pioneered this technology, this process. Yes. Um, in Washington state.
• 10:40
  S2: And she said something that really stuck with me. She,
• 10:42
  S2: she said, this is at one level. There's a sophistication
• 10:49
  S2: to this in terms of the technology that's used. But fundamentally,
• 10:52
  S2: it's kind of an old process. It's kind of something
• 10:55
  S2: we have done for a long time, and it's a
• 10:58
  S2: tried and tested technique. So it's a fascinating when you
• 11:02
  S2: actually dig into the details of the process. It's absolutely fascinating.
• 11:06
  S2: But when you actually talk to people involved who have
• 11:09
  S2: been involved in this, people who provide the service or
• 11:11
  S2: have been through it, there is a deep, almost spirituality.
• 11:15
  S1: I was just about to ask because I imagine certain
• 11:18
  S1: members of the church and we will get to this
• 11:19
  S1: might feel very differently, but it kind of has that
• 11:21
  S1: from dust to dust quality, right?
• 11:23
  S2: Absolutely, absolutely. I also spoke to a man called Todd
• 11:27
  S2: Hay from Florida. His daughter Morgan died of cervical cancer
• 11:31
  S2: when she was 32, and he felt very much the same.
• 11:36
  S2: She was very connected to the earth, to nature. So
• 11:41
  S2: was he. And they felt really comforted knowing that she
• 11:45
  S2: was being returned to the earth. That was their belief.
• 11:48
  S2: That was their. That was their spirituality, if you like.
• 11:51
  S2: And this process gave them a lot of comfort after her,
• 11:55
  S2: her her death at 32.
• 12:01
  S1: After the break.
• 12:02
  S2: The New York Catholic Conference, which kind of represents the
• 12:05
  S2: bishops of New York, was very unhappy. They said composting
• 12:09
  S2: was more appropriate for vegetable trimmings and eggshells than human bodies.
• 12:19
  S1: And this is really timely now because, as you've just written,
• 12:22
  S1: New South Wales MP Alex Greenwich, he is going to
• 12:24
  S1: be introducing a bill to legalize human composting in New
• 12:28
  S1: South Wales, at least on Thursday, with a view to
• 12:31
  S1: this method of burial becoming available, possibly in 2027, I believe.
• 12:34
  S1: So tell us about this push of his why is
• 12:36
  S1: he championing this?
• 12:37
  S2: So Alex was approached nearly a year ago by a
• 12:41
  S2: woman called Theresa Russell, who has been interested in this
• 12:45
  S2: for quite a while. She runs an organization called Earthly Legacy.
• 12:49
  S2: She came to Alex and said, I reckon you're the
• 12:52
  S2: guy to get this through Parliament. Alex is quite clever
• 12:55
  S2: at negotiating legislation with the government. He's on the crossbench.
• 12:59
  S2: He gets along well with with nearly everyone in the Parliament.
• 13:02
  S2: And her instincts were right. Alex, after an initial kind
• 13:05
  S2: of wall. What the. What is this? Got his head
• 13:08
  S2: around it, investigated it, actually went and looked at some
• 13:12
  S2: of these facilities in America and has been working on
• 13:17
  S2: legislation for the better part of a year. He's going
• 13:20
  S2: to introduce it. The government hasn't said yet that they
• 13:22
  S2: will absolutely do it. But my very strong sense is
• 13:25
  S2: I think they will. And once it's legalised in New
• 13:28
  S2: South Wales, it'll take a while for the system to
• 13:30
  S2: get up and running and for the regulations to be
• 13:32
  S2: to be put around it. But I think once it's
• 13:35
  S2: legislated in New South Wales, there'll be other states that
• 13:37
  S2: jump on that reasonably quickly as well.
• 13:40
  S1: Okay, interesting. But I wanted to ask you about this
• 13:42
  S1: because we've gone through a lot of reasons why many
• 13:44
  S1: people champion this method of burial overseas, of course, but
• 13:48
  S1: it's currently only legal if I understand your piece correctly,
• 13:51
  S1: in Germany and in 14 American states. So why is that?
• 13:55
  S2: Because of the what factor? And to some degree. And
• 13:59
  S2: this is a judgment term in somewhat the ick factor
• 14:02
  S2: around this. Like it's it's a weird thing when you
• 14:06
  S2: if you've never heard about it, but there is a
• 14:08
  S2: bigger thing that we just, we just don't like talking
• 14:10
  S2: about death. Generally as a society, we don't like talking
• 14:14
  S2: about it. It's, there's not a lot of benefit for
• 14:16
  S2: a politician to talk about death. Um, it's not.
• 14:19
  S1: Gonna, I think.
• 14:19
  S2: Any I think that is a factor. I think the
• 14:22
  S2: dominance of some players in the funeral industry, you know,
• 14:26
  S2: the dominance of burial and cremation as the primary form
• 14:30
  S2: of disposing of bodies hasn't really been challenged before. Another
• 14:34
  S2: factor is the Catholic Church.
• 14:36
  S3: Well, let's.
• 14:37
  S1: Get into this. How much do they oppose this overseas?
• 14:40
  S1: How much opposition might we see here?
• 14:42
  S2: Look, they have not gone to war over this in
• 14:46
  S2: the same way. They have some other issues, but they
• 14:49
  S2: don't like it. So there's sort of a middle ground there.
• 14:52
  S2: There's certainly not. This is kind of make or break
• 14:55
  S2: for us, but they have absolutely expressed their opposition to it.
• 14:59
  S2: When it was going through the process of legalization in
• 15:02
  S2: New York. The New York Catholic Conference, which kind of
• 15:04
  S2: represents the bishops of New York, was very unhappy. They said.
• 15:08
  S1: This is quite the quote.
• 15:09
  S2: Composting was more appropriate for vegetable trimmings and eggshells than
• 15:13
  S2: human bodies. They said human bodies are not household waste.
• 15:16
  S2: They're vessels of the soul. Fundamentally, the church doesn't like
• 15:21
  S2: or believes that composting prevents a person from rising again. Now,
• 15:28
  S2: as I say, the church didn't really ultimately have a
• 15:31
  S2: lot of sway here. It was legalized in New York,
• 15:33
  S2: but they weren't. They weren't thrilled about it. It is
• 15:36
  S2: worth pointing out that the church isn't entirely thrilled about cremation.
• 15:41
  S1: I say, do they oppose cremation?
• 15:42
  S2: Well, they don't oppose it, but they oppose it in
• 15:45
  S2: certain circumstances. And I think this would be a surprise
• 15:47
  S2: to a lot of people. The church only really likes
• 15:51
  S2: or endorses cremation. And this came from a Vatican directive
• 15:54
  S2: about ten years ago. They only really endorsed cremation, provided
• 15:58
  S2: the ashes remain together. They're not spread around. They're not
• 16:01
  S2: scattered in air or ocean. They have to be interred
• 16:05
  S2: in one place and in a particular place, a burial ground,
• 16:09
  S2: or somewhere near the church, not sitting in your hallway cupboard. So,
• 16:14
  S2: you know, I guess that gives you a sense that
• 16:16
  S2: the church also has views on cremation, but they also
• 16:20
  S2: are involved in the business of cremation. So, you know,
• 16:23
  S2: they can they can kind of walk both lines where
• 16:26
  S2: they're not thrilled about it, but they can be part
• 16:28
  S2: of it. And Katrina Spade from recompose told me that
• 16:31
  S2: they have had Catholic priests and others come and bless
• 16:36
  S2: bodies before they go through the composting process. Bless the remains.
• 16:41
  S2: So it's not as though they stay a million miles
• 16:43
  S2: away from it.
• 16:44
  S1: Uh, some maybe would, but not, not others.
• 16:46
  S2: And look, we need to see what will happen with
• 16:48
  S2: the church in New South Wales. It may well be
• 16:50
  S2: the same. They may not want to buy into it.
• 16:52
  S2: They may sort of say we're not really we don't
• 16:56
  S2: really love this. But I would be surprised if they
• 16:59
  S2: launched a massive offensive against it either.
• 17:02
  S1: Yeah, I mean, I guess we'll wait and see. But
• 17:03
  S1: I wanted to ask you culturally in Australia, do you
• 17:06
  S1: think Australians will embrace this form of burial? Because I'm
• 17:09
  S1: just wondering whether people have to be particularly open minded
• 17:12
  S1: because I, I know Bev, and you and I have
• 17:14
  S1: spoken about this outside of recording, I am no, I
• 17:18
  S1: am not shy about death. I've literally buried both my parents,
• 17:21
  S1: thrown soil on their coffins, was there with them when
• 17:25
  S1: they died, and yet I gasped when I read your story.
• 17:27
  S1: I was quite surprised. I did, and I'm just wondering,
• 17:30
  S1: I was thinking about how you mentioned recompose founder Katrina Spade, who,
• 17:34
  S1: like you said, she pioneered human composting a decade ago,
• 17:38
  S1: and she lightheartedly refers to her vessels, which contain the
• 17:41
  S1: composted human material as, quote, hotels for the dead. And
• 17:45
  S1: I just wondered, like, do we need to be as
• 17:46
  S1: open minded and, you know, as her to embrace this?
• 17:49
  S1: And by the way, I'm not against it at all.
• 17:51
  S1: I'm fascinated. But I was surprised even I was like,
• 17:53
  S1: oh my God.
• 17:54
  S2: I think you need to. As I said, I think
• 17:57
  S2: the initial response from a lot of people is, is
• 18:00
  S2: that what I think it is? And then what? And
• 18:03
  S2: then it's about the details. And the details actually aren't
• 18:07
  S2: that complicated. No. But I think once people understand how
• 18:11
  S2: this works, I think once people understand that this is
• 18:14
  S2: not about saying you can't be buried or cremated, this
• 18:17
  S2: is about another option. It's just another option in the
• 18:21
  S2: in the overall mix available to you.
• 18:23
  S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:24
  S2: I think people are pretty relaxed about it, but there
• 18:27
  S2: is a there is a kind of black humor element
• 18:30
  S2: to this as well. And you know, the hotel for
• 18:32
  S2: the dead, uh, I'm.
• 18:33
  S1: Not gonna lie is a good example. I sort of
• 18:35
  S1: liked that. I don't know why. I guess because it
• 18:37
  S1: almost makes it friendly. Yeah, I mean, that might sound crazy,
• 18:41
  S1: but it's not a scary language.
• 18:43
  S2: Theresa Russell, who I mentioned earlier from Earthly Legacy, who's
• 18:46
  S2: been working on this with Alex Greenwich, she said she
• 18:49
  S2: hopes one of the best things that comes from this
• 18:51
  S2: discussion that we're about to have is that people talk
• 18:54
  S2: a bit more about death. As I say, it is
• 18:57
  S2: a it's something we don't like to think about or
• 19:00
  S2: talk about, even though we're all going to experience it.
• 19:03
  S2: You know, we're all going to die and we're all
• 19:05
  S2: going to have family members and friends who die. This
• 19:07
  S2: might open that discussion up a little bit more, which
• 19:10
  S2: which would probably be a good thing. And look each
• 19:12
  S2: to their own. Some people will go totally. Absolutely not.
• 19:15
  S2: I spoke to, funnily enough, I spoke to someone who's
• 19:19
  S2: in the medical industry. I'll put it that way earlier
• 19:22
  S2: this week, and I told them I was working on
• 19:24
  S2: this story and I kind of thought, if you're in medicine,
• 19:27
  S2: you've seen and you've seen everything.
• 19:28
  S1: You've seen it all. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:29
  S2: They were horrified. They they were absolutely horrified. Then I've
• 19:32
  S2: spoken to some other people who I thought might really
• 19:36
  S2: not like this or kind of get the ick from it.
• 19:38
  S2: And they've been completely fascinated by it and have gone
• 19:41
  S2: off and done their own research and come back to
• 19:43
  S2: me in the last couple of days and said, I
• 19:44
  S2: think I want to do this.
• 19:45
  S1: Yeah.
• 19:46
  S2: So let's see where let's see where it goes. But
• 19:48
  S2: it's a, it's a fascinating new player in the overall,
• 19:52
  S2: it really is death space.
• 19:57
  S1: Well, it's fascinating and it's profound. So thank you so
• 20:01
  S1: much Bevan.
• 20:01
  S2: Good to talk.
• 20:11
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer
• 20:16
  S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
• 20:19
  S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow
• 20:23
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• 20:25
  S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.