Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Sliced, Beaten and Strangled - The Death of Melody Hoffman

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Sliced, Beaten and Strangled - The Death of Melody Hoffman · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Quody Dius, But Joseph's gotten more. The first office that
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I ever had was actually adjacent to a levee that
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: overlooked the Mississippi River. And now if you've never seen
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the Mississippi River, it's certainly something to behold. It's massive,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and it doesn't look like it's moving until, of course,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: you get immediately adjacent to it. Then you can see
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the flow. Some days it's very powerful. And you know
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: what's really weird. In South Louisiana when the springtime melt
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: would occur way back up river, back in Minnesota and Iowa,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: you would see huge blocks of ice that would flow
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: all the way down to the city of New Orleans.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Now that's not something you would expect to see, but
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I have actually seen it. And they say that many rivers,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: many creeks, flow into the Mississippi River. And today on
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to talk about a location named
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: after one such creek. That creek, of course, and of
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: course it's now relation is Morgan Creek, and Morgan Creek
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: flows into the Cedar River in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: of course Cedar River flows into the Mississippi River. But
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: back to Morgan Creek, that tiny little tributary. There is
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: actually a park in Cedar Rapids named after that little creek,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: and within the boundaries of that park are found the
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: remains of a young woman who, according to reports, had
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: to mind though she was twenty of about a fourteen
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: year old, and she was brutalized beyond anything that most
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of us can imagine or care to comprehend. I'm Josephcott Morgan,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: and this is Bodybags, Dave. I have memories of the
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: first time I ever saw the Mississippi River, and it
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: was not in New Orleans, actually it was I was
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: with my mother, and my mother had a nineteen sixty
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: seven Candy Apple red three speed Mustang fastback. I loved
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: that car, and she had it for a number of years.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And I remember, you know, back then when we were little,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: you know, you run in the front seat, and of
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: course you had no seat belt, and there was a
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: lot of sit down that you would hear coming. And
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: it was just me and my mom and you know,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: and I rode around that car with her, and I
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: remember crossing the Mississippi River bridge probably when I was
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: about three or four, I guess in Vicksburg. Vicksburg Mississippi,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: where you're going from the Louisiana side to the Mississippi side,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: And I remember looking down you could look over the
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: edge of that old bridge and it was steel back then,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: and you could see how vast that river is, and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: that bridge is so high you look down on it,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: and particularly, you know when your little things look so
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: massive anyway, but even by today's standards, it would look huge.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And you think about now, at this age, I think
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: about the flow of that river and the stories that
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: are told all along the banks of it, going all
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: the way up to the headwaters in Minnesota, and it
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: tells a story in and of itself, and it has
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: for years and years, and people have been entranced by it,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: it seems to me, and of course I'm kind of partial.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: The stories all seem to come to rest down in
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: the delta. But for our case today, this starts all
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: the way back up upriver, you know, over a thousand
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: miles away up in Iowa, Dave. And what a.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Tragic case, you know, McKinley, Louisma and Melody Hoffman were
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: involved in an intimate relationship. Most of our stories, not most,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: A lot of our stories start like that. And I
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: wonder sometimes, how can people that have spend enough time
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: together to enjoy one another's company, to be involved in
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: a relationship for an extended period of time, how it
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: can end so badly that you and I end up
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: talking about one of the people involved in it. Because
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: that's what we're doing again. McKinley Louisma, while he was
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: in a special relationship with Melody Hoffman, was also in
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: a relationship with another one. So there you go, the
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: triangle once again complete.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the relationship don't sound nothing special time till the truth.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of a sad reality of what we
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: end up with. But Melody Hoffman goes missing. Yeah, that's
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: the first part of the story, you know, that's what
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: gets out in the news. We have a missing woman.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Everybody be on the lookout, and then you find out, well,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: her boyfriend has another girlfriend, and that one thing leads
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: to another, and we discovered that McKinley Luisma has told
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: investigators that he and Dakota Van Patten put Melody Hoffman
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: in the trunk of a car at Morgan Creek Park
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: in Northwest Cedar Rapids and then dumped her body at
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: a man of Lily Lake about sixteen miles away before
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: picking up Melody her significant other McKinley Luisma, And it
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: could have been Patten. They went to Walmart picked up
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: you know, what do you do when you're going to
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: a creek area, a place with water and you know,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: beachy areas. You pick up things to sit on the
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: grass and maybe cook out. Right, Yeah, no, not these guys,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: McKinley Luisma, And it could have been Patton go to
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Walmart and pick up two machetes and gloves. Two machetes
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: and gloves, because that's what you take on a romantic
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: picnic by the pond, right.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh yeah, what a horror show too. And
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: just to back up just a little bit here, I
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: gotta I gotta speak to to Melody Hoffman for one second.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Melody Hoffman was twenty years old, and Dave, you know
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: she she has been described as being slow mentally and
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: emotionally underdeveloped, that she's been described as being having kind
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: of the emotional development of a fourteen year old. And
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: I think the really sad thing about this is that
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: she was lonely and had always wanted a boyfriend and
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: never had had had one. And if you've I think
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: that it's a longing you know that sets in with somebody.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: You want to be loved, You want to be you
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: want to be made to, You want to feel special,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: you know, and if you're absent that in your life,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: that's a dangerous thing, particularly in the world that we
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: live in today, because it makes so it's so easy
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: to be taken advantage of.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: You mentioned, she's fourteen mentally emotionally a young king and
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: if you remember that time period, it's this really cross
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: between a little girl and a young woman and it's
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: a period of time where both those types of attributes coexist.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: But not for her. She was twenty, but she was
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: at a younger age emotionally and mentally. So she's a
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: fourteen year old where she can still see, you know,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: unicorns and pink clouds and stuff like that, and wasn't
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: past that she was being taken advantage of by her
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: boyfriend slash ex boyfriend. However, you want to look at
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: McKinley Luisma, he was taking advantage of her because she
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: was a little bit underdeveloped that way, that's how they
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: could lure her into the situation of getting her separated
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: and out by herself without fear. There's another part of
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: all this show that came up that I was going
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: to ask you about, was she pregnant.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: There's been some indication that she had either according to
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist, she had either been recently pregnant or
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: was currently pregnant. But you know, the examination of her system,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: of her body at the time did not reveal a
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: fetus at this point in time. You know, that doesn't
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: mean that she wasn't pregnant, but there was a hormone
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: that was present in her system hCG. And that's like
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: when a blood test is done for pregnancy, you're looking
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: for ACG HG, and so it's there. But given circumstances,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: the pathologists could not necessarily totally rule it out, or
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: that maybe she had been pregnant and lost a child
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: that can still And so you're a woman's system even
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: in a post natal state. If she's, say, for instance,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: had a miscarriage at some point, tom, that hormone would
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: still be present there and the body has not purged
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: itself completely.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Wow, there's so much to unwrap in this story, but
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: ultimately it's a relationship that went bad and rather than
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: breaking up and moving on, I guess that's something that
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: seems to be happening in so many different stories, like, really,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: this was your best decision? Look, nobody likes to be
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: in a situation where they have to break up with
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: somebody that they no longer have the feelings for. And
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I get that, okay, but I'm just thinking, how many
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: movies have we watched and it never turns out good?
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Isn't there a little indicator here that just maybe we
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: got to think of something other than murder somebody you
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: care about, somebody that you've had an intimate relationship with
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: that you're done with. Granted it might be cold and
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: all that, but look, you really think your best decision
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: is to kill this individual?
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah? That that's a very uh, I don't know, it's
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: a it's a very uh horrific but yet simplistic way
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: of looking at life. Uh. What What's what's so amazing
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: to me is the fact that you can uh involve
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: yourself in such at such an intimate level with someone.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, let's face it, where you know you're you're
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: involved in a physical sexual relationship with someone, uh, and
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: you go back to them tom and Tom again to
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: engage in this behavior, and maybe you're telling them that
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: you do in fact care for them, but yet you
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: can dispose of them as if they're garbage. Uh. And
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: those two things don't seem to correlate with one another,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: at least in my mind. And you know, you talk
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: about how, how is this the best decision that you
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: could have come up with at this moment in time? Well,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: of course, uh, it for this individual. Uh, it would
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: seem that this individual felt as though, uh, that it
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: was best for him to do this. And not just him,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: but he's he's also you know, involved an acquaintance of
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: his in in the circumstances. So what you have here
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: is that somebody that is has quit somebody because they
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: have another girlfriend, uh that they have that that individual, Uh,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: they've created a life with uh, and they've grown tired
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: of melody. And so you you go and you confide
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: in your friend. Look, you know, I I'm over this,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I'm tired of her. I want to get rid of her.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: And you drag them into the circumstances as well, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: to dispose of a life, to end a life and
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: then try to dispose of her mortal remains in such
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: a horrific way is something that I don't I don't
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: know that we could really plumb the depths of effectively here,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: but it really leaves you scratching her head. Why would
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you want to destroy this poor this poor girl like
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: this and completely demolish her family in the wake of
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: what you've done, It's almost as if it's almost as
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: if you could care less about her as a person.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: And of course, what it all comes down to is
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: you care more about your immediate satisfaction than you ever
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: could about a life that is yet to be completely lived. Dave,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I was reflecting on a case that you and I
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: have talked a lot about that you probably have learned
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: more about, and I didn't really want to know that
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: much about, but I've subjected subjected you to it, and
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you know, God bless you, my friend. But that's the
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: piked In piked In massacre, and the Piked and Masker
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: actually has uh has one little bit in common with
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: the case of Melody Hoffmann, and that involves a trip
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: to Walmart. Uh. You know, you remember in the Pike
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: and Masker case where uh uh uh, the the mama
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: goes to Walmart in order to purchased unused shoes so
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: that her, her husband, and her two boys can commit
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: commit to these crimes with quote unquote virgin souls. Uh
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: so as O l e on their feet, and you know,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: isn't it interesting?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I think in a recent episode I mentioned to you
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: about seeing bags along the side of the road, and
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: you know, you see things alongside the road and you think,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I wonder what's in that bag? Have you ever gone
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: to Walmart, Dave and walked past people in store and
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: you think, I wonder what they're buying in there? Or
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: what is what is this person? What is this person about?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: What exactly are they doing? Because you know, you see
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: all shapes and sizes, as you well know. I had
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: a buddy of mine one time said the most entertaining
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: place in the world would be Walmart. If you had
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: a lawn chair in a case of beer late on
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: a Friday night and you just sat there and watched
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: it would be better than cable television. You never know
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen, you know, with people coming and going.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And I just think you looked at yourself in the
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: mirror before you left the house and thought that was okay.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Really yeah, yeah, I know.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Based on that decision, I know, whatever's in the bag
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: is not something I want to see.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but you know what, what what can
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: I say? I'm not a big of I'm not a
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: big where we can drop the public.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: About piked In, you know, and about that was really
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: shocking to me was the trip for Walmart to buy
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: the shoes. It was something I never would have thought of.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: And you guys go check out the episode. Joe's done
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of shows about that piked
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: In massacre. We did one here and that was something
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I never would have thought of. The shoes.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, we just did
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: an episode involved in uh well I think, yeah, I
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: know what it was. It was because Billy Wagner is
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: about to go to try right, Yeah, so we had
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: to revisit that again. But you know the one thing
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: and what got what got Mama Wagner caught in that case, Dave,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: we'll CECTV, which we know that Walmart is fully equipped with.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: And let me give you some advice. Next time you
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: go to Walmart, look at the ceiling. Look at the ceiling.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: You'll see the little pods that are up there. Yeah,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and this thing is covered from front to back. And
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: let me tell you something else, Walmart does not play
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: when it comes to shoplifting either. If they catch you shoplifting,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: they will charge you or they will have you charge
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: and they don't drop the charges either. Wow, they do
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: not negotiate over that. So at least they did in
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: the past. I can't speak you know, in recent history,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: and we won't go down that road however.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: But interesting, So, you know, at least in the Piking
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: case show, when they went to Walmart to get supplies,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: they were buying something to actually draw attention away from
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: them as possible suspects. But here we have we have
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: these two guys going there buying machetes.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that they also bought paracord as
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: where as well, if you don't know what paara cord is,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: it's a braided synthetic rope that you can use it
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: for any number of things in the military, you know,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you use it to lash things together, you can use
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: it to depend upon the type, you can use it
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: for repelling all these sorts of things and securing things.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: And so a pair of cord plays into this case.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: But also macheties certainly play into this case as well.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Dave, Yeah, there's you know the nine one one call
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: to report the body of Melody Hoffman is shocking. And
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: when you couple that call with the autopsy report Joe,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: which we're going to get into both of these, because
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: she's described the description of Melody Hoffman. She has such beautiful,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: pure white skin. That was part of the nine to
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: one one call when a woman calls it there's a
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: dead body here. I see a dead body, and the operator,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: you know, well, do you think the person is breathing? No,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: this is a dead body, but she has the most
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: beautiful skin. And then conversely, I thought of a picture
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: that was found on McKinley Luisma's phone. On his cell
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: phone is a picture of twenty year old Melody Hoffman
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: shows her face with duct tape over her mouth, a
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: bloody nose. She'd apparently been crying, and he took a
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: photo of her like that and kept it on his
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: phone so he could revisit the look.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Joe. Yeah, I'm thinking about this now, you know, in
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: light of the appearance of the photograph, and to me, Dave,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: this is indicative of someone that's not just trying to
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: kill somebody and get them out of their life. This,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: this is a whole other level of horror when you
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: think about this, why is it that you would want
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: to document this uh that that look of fear. There's
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: been a number of these cases over the years that
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: involve uh what I refer to is as uh uh
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: as sexual sadism. And you you have individuals out there
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: that uh that love to uh photograph individuals. Uh and
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: in these these horrible sets of circumstances.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: UH.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: One guy comes to mind in particular for me out
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: of Kansas City from many years ago named Robert Burdella,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: who would photograph his his victim that he had kidnapped
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: and uh. And I've seen these photographs over the years, certainly,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: and before the evolution of the the internet, you know,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I saw them conferences people that were talking about these cases.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: And he operated essentially from eighty four till about eighty seven,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I think, and he would he would abduct and torture individuals.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: And there's there's kind of a what's it, Bethany Marshall
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: cause of feticization, I think, I don't know if I'm
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: pronouncing that correctly, But they go back and they revisit,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you know, things like this. It's one thing if you're
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: going if you're going with with your friend to you
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: know that you've entered into an agreement with them to
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: kill somebody and dispose of their mortal remains. But why
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: under heaven would you do this to this poor girl?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: And remember she has the mind of a fourteen year
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: old child, and all she ever wanted was a boy
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: friend and to have your buddy stand by, you know,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: as this is going on as well. Why why, why
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: is it that you would want to revisit this on
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: any level? This really goes to a deep, very dark
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: dark place, Dave.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: When I saw the picture, you know, was on his phone,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I thought, I wonder if it was taken that day
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: or if it was from an earlier beating. You know,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: anything's possible, But I know that when police recalled about
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: the dead body, the deputy who showed up and wrote
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the initial report gives a cursory view of what he finds,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: and she appears to have suffered extensive injuries. He notes
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: that now I guess you need to I mean, when
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: you see a body, I guess sometimes the person could
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: look like they're dead, but maybe they've only got a
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: bullet hole somewhere that you can't really see, or maybe
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: they've had a heart attack and falling over. I mean,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: there are options to this that don't have to say
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: the person looks like they have extensive injuries. So she
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: was laying face down on the ground. Would that yell
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: somebody something if you're invesciating.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it could. And she's found essentially on the ground
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: with And one of the interesting things that they talked
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: about that kind of stands out is that her hands
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: were curled in a way that they shouldn't have been.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: And that came in from the reporter. The lady that well,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I say, reporter, what I meant is the finder, And
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: we've talked about the role of the finder, and you know,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: she talked about the hands being in a curled in
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a way that they shouldn't have been. And I'm really
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: wondering if this wasn't a reaction to perhaps the fact
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: that she was strangled and that she's going through a
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: seizure like event and her hands remained in this position,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: you know, in the wake of this. But here's something else.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: You know, when the finder observed observed her, you know,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: she did talk about, you know, this this beautiful, pale,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: perfect skin, and she defined her actually bears a witness
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to this on the stand, and she talked about her
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: glorious curls. And when you see Melody, she's got this
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: long brown hair and it's very very curly, you know,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like ringlets that that kind of pour
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: down her back. And the only thing she's wearing are
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: her underwear. Again, when you find women in particular that
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: are clothed only in a pair of underwear, this goes
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: to a level of I think at least a level
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: of humiliation when you do this and you've absented them
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: of all other coverings that they might have on their person.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And Dave, let's reflect back to where this was. This
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: was in Iowa, and I don't know if you've ever
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: been to Iowa in the wintertime, and this happened February,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: February eighteenth, Iowa. Iowa is cold. I mean it is
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: bone chilling cold. Beautiful but cold. And you know, so
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: again you've got this this young woman who is naked
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: save her underwear. She's been brutalized and she's without any
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: source of comfort. You know, I use Maslow's hierarchy a lot,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: you know, when I'm thinking about the way people are
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: treated at scenes in particular, you know, that our basic
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: needs that we have of clothing and comfort and you know,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: shelter and those sorts of things. And when you can
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: deprive people of things that like a real base level
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: like this, I think that it goes to the mentality
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: of the individual that's doing a great harm. It begs
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: the question, doesn't it you know, what became of the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: rest of her clothing? Where were they and for how
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: long did Because the term torture keeps coming up in
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: this case, Dave, And if you're going to torture someone,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: that means that you have to have an isolated location
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: and you have to have time, David.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And very quickly her hands in an unnatural way. You
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: mentioned a seizure. What kind of injuries would you suffer
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that could bring about a seizure that would cause that
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: to happen.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that there's two things. Famously, where just
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, you know, we're coming on
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: the heels of an injury that Trevor Lawrence is aimed
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: where he sustained his head injury, and you can see
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: his arms go stiff in this event, and it's like
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: a seizure response that individuals have where you'll see their
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: hands will kind of contract, they'll grasp their thumbs. I've
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: seen this actually in people that have videotaped themselves when
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: they hang themselves, and you can have this event that
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: will occur with oxygen deprivation as well as head injuries
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: as well. I don't know that that's necessarily what happened here,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: but I just find it interesting in passing that the
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: observer the finder in this case, made a lot of
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: this on the stand in this case where she talked
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: about her hands. Melody's hands, at least, we're in an
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: unnatural position, and so that gives you the idea that
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: they're probably curled in a backwards manner. Now that can
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: also come about. I think perhaps maybe she had been
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: restrained and the restraints were cut at some point in time,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Maybe that cord was taken away. I don't really know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: but and you know, riger has set in at that
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: point time. But you know, Melody was found within a
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: very short period of time of when she was last
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: seen alive. So she's not you know, she's she might
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: still and I would think there would still be some
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: remnant of post war changes going on her body that
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: would be appreciable at that moment in time.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Would cold weather prevent the onset of the changes that
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: take place in death you mentioned Roger Mortis. I mean,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: is it delayed because of the how cold it is?
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: It can be, Yeah, it can be. But I think
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: that in a case like this, where you're outdoors like
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: this and she is, I think that at best it's
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: going to be negligible, probably in this case. And also
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: keep in mind that somebody that's engaged in this kind
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: of vigorous physical activity, because I don't know if there's
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: anything more vigorous in the world than someone being tortured.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: You've got the metabolic activity that is increased, and of
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: course you know this, this would have still to a
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: certain degree, have remained if she died in the wake
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: of this torture. I don't think that it would have
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: slowed it to the manner where it would not have
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: been appreciable. I think that if she had been laying
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: in stasis in bed, perhaps like an elderly person in
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the room had been cooler, perhaps that you know, the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: temperature would probably retard, retarded compared to say summertime where
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: things are warmer, you know. But no, I don't think
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: to any great degree but I do know this that
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: when the observers, in this case, the Finder and certainly
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: that police officer that first arrived at the scene, not
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: only did they see not only did they see that,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: as she described the finder the most quote, beautiful pale,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: perfect skin and glorious curls, she also saw something else.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: She saw what appeared to be all kinds of marks
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: on her back, like slashes. This is what happened to
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Melodiy Hoffmann. What is it that? What is it that
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: she had done to someone that would have driven them
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: to the point where they would want to get a
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: sharp instrument, multiple sharp instruments, and torture her, because this
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: is what this is, by slashing her across her body
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and then using a piece of what's referred to as
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: paracord to strangle her with. I don't know that we
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: would necessarily have the answer to that, but I have
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: my suspicions, Dave, when you think about maybe the individual
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: that wanted just merely to be shed of this woman's life, you.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Know, looking at pictures of her and thinking about twenty
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: year old life in front of them, the whole nine,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: and then looking at what this person who she had
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: been in a relationship with and I'm having trouble matching
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: it up. You know, people being so young and going
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: to this degree, not that age should have a lot
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: to do with doing something so destructive to another human being.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know why. It just strikes me as this
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: one just seems like there's something missing, like we're not
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: getting the whole story. We've got the basics. We know
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: that Melody Hoffman was murdered. We know that she was
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: a simple girl with a little bit of a mental
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: or emotional maturity at about the age of fourteen. But
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: when you look at the investigation, Joe, you know, I
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: mentioned the picture earlier of where it looked like she
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: had where Melody had duct tape over her mouth and
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: she had been crying, noses bloody, some things like that,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: And it was a photo that was on McKinley Louisma's phone. Well,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: when they did some research, they found out that they
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: believe she died around midnight on February seventeenth. At four
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: five am February eighteenth, he accessed that phone, that photo
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: on his phone at four So if she died around midnight,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: four hours later, he's looking at that photo of her.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Now I know that there's plenty of evidence in the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: data has evidence in it. You know that our phone,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: the pictures rather have data that tells them when the
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: picture was taken and everything else. Because I think I'd
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: mentioned did he do this tour before? Had he tortured
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: her like this before? Joe? And then I don't know.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I'm just totally bum fuzzled that the guy took a
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: picture of her while she's alive and crying and keeps
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: it on his phone, and then based on this timetable,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: he's looking at it four hours after he's killed.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: He feels real comfortable with this because he's involving friends
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: in it.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Dave, Yeah, that's you know, the code of empacth.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the other thing. There's also a third
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: individual that he had turned I think a Logan Kempton,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: that he he had turned over all of these items.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: This is Luisma had turned these items over that had
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: been purchased to get rid of them. So this individual
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: is an accessory in this homicide as well. And the
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: reason I'm saying this is it's ghastly that they would
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: be involved in it, but it's the idea that this
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: perpetrator felt so comfortable doing this, and I think this
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: goes to a greater point. How was this the ultimate
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: escalation and ongoing abuse? I think? And was there any
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: evidence found on her remains that she had been subject
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: to abuse? You know, she lived with her mother, Melody
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: did she lived with her mother? Her mother had been
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: trying to get in contact with her, had texted her
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: to try, you know, to get back home, because she
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: had cameras at the house that she witnessed her leaving
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the house, and she had pined her to tell her
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: to come back home, come back home, and of course
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: she didn't. She never comes back home. And you know
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the fact that this individual that did this to her,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I wonder how much awareness the mother has had, you know,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: over what perhaps Melody had been subjected to at the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: hands of this of this perpetrator, McKinley Louisma. How much
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: other abuse had he subjected Melody to over a period
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: of time. Was there a lot of verbal abuse? Had
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: he been smacking her around at all? Was there evidence
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: of healed injuries for instance? You know that that you
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: could put a time frame on moving forward, and I
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: don't know that that was necessarily discovered. But one of
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: the things that's that's quite interesting that they were able to,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of track I think with digital evidence
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: here is his movements. Are their movements relative to to
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: what happened to her? Because you talked about they were
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: at the park, I think at the Morgan Creek Park
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: from about twelve nine to about roughly twelve twenty five
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: on the eighteenth, which is when they believe she was killed.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: And they believe she was killed there at Morgan Creek Park.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Now she's then placed into a vehicle, his vehicle, they believe,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: and driven out to this Lily Pond Park. What's fascinating
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: to me is that when her body was deposited at
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Lily Pond Park, she was not deposited in the pond itself.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: She was deposited deposited adjacent to the pond. Now, I
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: don't know what status of the pond was. I don't
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: know exactly how far away she was, but we do
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: know that she was essentially approximating the shore. Was their
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: eyes on the pond because we're talking about February, you know,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: So is it possible that they just could not have
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: gotten her sufficiently out in the water. Maybe they're afraid
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: of water. I don't know. Maybe they can't swim. I
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: have no idea to be and that this was the
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: most expeditious thing that they could do. But Dave, that
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: chilling part that you mentioned where he's obviously reflecting back
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: on this imagery, you know that he has is he
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: fantasizing at this point in time, because dude, this is
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: in the wake. This is just in the wake of
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: what has happened to this young woman.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: That's why I was overly curious. Yeah, I mean, normally
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: something like that just I kind of get it and
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: just file it, right, But this one caught me different
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: because I'm going, wait a minute, either he tortured her
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: before and kept this photo to remind him of what
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: he had done previously, or this is a picture of
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: her right before he killed her. Or yeah, and you
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: mentioned the digital evidence, Joe, and I thought, oct when
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: you access your phone and you access stuff online with
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: social media, you have to get online to do that,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and so they can track our phones, you know, from
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: the different pings that they hit. But interestingly enough, they
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: actually were able to in this particular case. McKinley Luisma
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: gets on his phone and uses Wi Fi, but he
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: uses a Wi Fi hotspot that was created by Dakota
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: van Patten on his phone. That put them both at
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: the location at the time of the death. Now, one
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: of the things we mentioned about Melody Hoffman laying face
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: down when she was discovered, she had marks on her back, Joe,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: And at this point we haven't even got into how
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: she actually was killed. Was she killed with the machete knives?
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: No? No, that that's why these marks are. Some have
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: described them as slashes. I've heard slashes. I've heard uh
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: one individual refer to the mistab ones and listen, it
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: would not surprise me if both existed. Now, a machete
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: is not a stabbing tool, Okay, it is a slicing
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: or cutting tool. You know, people traditionally have used them
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: to cut brush. Are you know members of our military
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: have carried them on the rucksacks for years and years,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: particularly those that are in in densely wooded areas, are
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: in jungle canopy?
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Uh?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Are you know our guys in Vietnam, you know, carried
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: them all everywhere. Everybody have machetes back then because you'd
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: have to cut through elephant grass and all that sort
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: of stuff.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: And they're primarily used to swing in order to slice
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: through things. Uh No, what what actually brought about her death, Dave,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: was this this pair cord that had been wrapped around
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: her neck. Now Here, here's the thing again that that
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: goes to why I believe that this is potentially uh,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: this pear cord or this these uh, these marks on
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: her neck might be indicative of of of a torture event,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: because I think that there's multiple marks on her neck.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: So what that would mean is that is that perhaps
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: this this this pair cord had generated marks around the
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: front of her her neck, and they're described as marx plural.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: What that means is that if you're and the primarily
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: the rope or the ligature is around the front of
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: the neck, it's being adjusted, released, and then readjusted. Okay,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: so what you have is kind of in the rear.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: You're holding the ligature in the rear and you're tightening
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: it down, almost like a garrod. Now they haven't used
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: the term grot, but that's the way garrot would you
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: be used. If you have, like you know, the wooden
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: stick that goes in between the two. You can use
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: a wire or rope and you tighten it down and
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: then you release it and then you readjust it and
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: you tighten it down again, so you could bring her
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: to the point. Now she's enduring incredible pain because she's
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: already got these these insults to her back. Now you know,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: to finish her off, and maybe you're controlling her with
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: this this rope around her neck as well. Keep that
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: in mind. You can put this rope around her neck
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: and walk behind her. Now she's in her underwear, Dave,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: what if they strip her of her clothes? Okay, just
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: let this sink in just for a second. They've stripped
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: her of her clothes, okay, and they're marching her out
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: there in the cold on this cold February night, and
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: she's walking out there nude. She's at this park, this park.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: They're loosening and tightening this ligature around her neck. They're
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: humiliating her day. They slash her with this machete and
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: then finally the coup de gras. They take that ligature
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: as she's laying there and they tighten it and tighten
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: it and tighten it until not another sound emanates from
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: her body. It's just this final gasp of air when
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: she's struggling to breathe, but you can't because her airway
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: is externally constricted down to the point where I've seen
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: these cases where tongues bulge, eyes bulged. You're gonna have petiki,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: and there's a resistance there that you're not gonna be
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: able to fight against, particularly if you've already been greatly traumatized.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: I would imagine that in many cases, the individual just
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: wants it to end because they're in such a state.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: There's such a state of trauma at this point in
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: tom there's nothing else that they can do.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: When this case was in court and you get to
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: you get to read the testimony, it's been thought of,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: its organized is oftentimes you've ever listened to somebody related
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: story right after certain things impact them differently than others,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: and it's only the accumulative effect of time research and
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: looking at the entire in this page, in this particular case,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: the entire scene where they realize that Melody was not
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: killed where she was found. She was killed and then
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: brought to the location sixteen miles away. My question to you, Joe,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: they said that she wasn't killed where she was found
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: a little lily pad or what was lily? Yeah? Yeah,
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: because there was absence of blood pooled and everything else.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: There was an absence of blood. Based on her death,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: they would have expected to see more blood. You're saying
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: that she was strangled. We know she's got marks on
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: her back, but she obviously lost a lot of blood
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: too from the cuts on her back and on her body.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: But she didn't die there. Was she alive when they
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: put her in the trunk of the car to transport her.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Wow. I think that that very well could have been
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: the case. They know that. What we do know is
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: that she was found in Lily Pond, which is up
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: in a Manna, which is, you know what, sixteen miles
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: away from from Cedar Falls. Was she placed in that
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: trunk and she was already or was she still alive?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: To keep using the term terrorized and tortured Dave over
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: and over again as it applies to her, you know,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: I guess you know, at the end of the day,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: we can only hope that that she her death was
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: was quick. I think that they believe that she was killed,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: uh there in the Morgan Creek Park and then placed
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: into the trunk and transport it up there, and she
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: was left adjacent to that that pond, And you know,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know why they would have gone to that
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: trouble to drive that distance to to deposit her remains,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: because there's you know, there's a whole lot of of
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: of vacant area in Iowa, a lot of rural area.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: If you're if you're looking to you know, take a
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: body and deposit somebody where they might not be found.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: But you get to a landmark like a pond, and
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: you know you're going to find uh uh, you know,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: someone lying adjacent to the shoreline of this little pond.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: It's not like you take you would take her out
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: into a densely wooded area and take her body out there.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: The movements of these individuals, I think we're rather orchestrated.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: They had a plan in mind, but it was ultimately
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: the execution and the lack of care that they took.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: And certainly when it comes to digital evidence, Dave, because
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: you really spoke something I think into at least into
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: my mind investigatively, just a moment ago, when you had
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: mentioned that Luisma's phone actually hopped on to a hotspot
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: created by his compatriot here who was along with and
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: that they were traveling in concert together, Dave, And that's
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: a dead giveaway now, I've covered cases in the past
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: where you have two phones that are moving through a
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: location together. You know, they famously say, always say, is
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: that the phones are moving. We can't say that the
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: people that on the phones are moving together. But in
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: this case, you've got two phones that are digitally married
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: to one another by virtue of the fact that you're
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: hopping onto a hotspot that the other one has created.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever heard this before.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: I saw it, and my first thought was, he is
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: not going to get out of this. You know, you've
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: got him, Dakota. Now you've got him using his hotspot
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: for Luisman to get online. You've got them both inside
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: the Walmart buying the machetes. So they're they're tied. They're
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: tied together. The one thing that we do know, Joe,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: is that a twenty year old girl the mental emotional,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: psychological maturity of a fourteen year old, was kidnapped, terrorized,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: and murdered and her body left in the middle of
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: you know, near a pond. I guess is the best
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: way to put it, just left out naked to Now
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: we've had a trial and McKinley Luisma, twenty three years old, convicted,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: but his sentencing has been pushed back. Joe, why would
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: a sentencing after having all this evidence, why would they
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: move the sentencing?
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I think that more than likely in my opinion, my
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: opinion alone, that perhaps just perhaps the defense has wanted
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: more time so that they could do a pre sentencing
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: hearing and that they could go before go before the
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: judge and ask for some level of mercy here. Because
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you, it's the horror that's involved
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: in this case. The defense understands what Luisma is facing here,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: and not only see facing it, He's got other people
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: that are involved in this that can offer up testimony
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: to this. This is not like a loan person out
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: there that just did this, you know, kind of in
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: a vacuum. That's not what you've got. You've got, You've
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: got so many witnesses pointing back at him, including the
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: evidence that's contained in the digital evidence. They're going to
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: need more time, I think for the pre sentencing investigation
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: that always takes place. So they probably ask for more
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: time in this case because they know that whatever the
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: sentence is going to be, it ain't going to be pretty.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and This is body backs,