Latest / Monero Talk / 3D Printed Gun Designer Joseph The Parrot on Shaping the Next Steps of True Liberty | EPI 346
Transcript
- Doug All right, what's going on, man? How are you? I'm doing great today. I'm retweeting this right now, live right now, with 3D gun designer at Joseph the Parrot. How do you pronounce the name, Ze Carioca? It's exactly like Ze Carioca. Ze Carioca. Yes, exactly. Oh, you did pretty well for the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I probably won't be able to do it again last time. So don't ask me again, Ze Carioca. Portuguese, man, right? Beautiful, beautiful language. I assume it's a Portuguese name. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, before we jump into things, why don't you give the audience a little background? We got 13 live viewers right now, guys. Guys like, share, retweet. Let's get a bunch of people in here. This is going to be an interesting show. This is going to be a good show. We have Ze Carioca. I told you I'd push it. I told you I'd push it. Yeah, the third time. AKA Joseph the Parrot. He's well-known in the 3D gun printing community. They call him the Jay Stark of Brazil. Jay Stark was famously from Europe, a 3D gun printer that, I believe, and I'm sure Joseph will get into it. I believe what he was kind of most known for was the gun that he designed that became like an easy do yourself where you could fully assemble a gun essentially on your own with sourcing the parts. And I believe Joseph has also, Joseph the Parrot has also done the same. So we'll get into all that. But yeah, why don't you go ahead, man, and give an intro and tell us everything you're willing to tell us about yourself. Ze Carioca Okay, so let me just think for a little while because it's 100% improvised here. So, let me start with like, we did Joseph's first song on the block. So, we did the Zekarioka thing. It actually came from a Disney movie. Movie, like, feature cartoon. Because you have Don of the Duck. I forgot the name of the Mexican one. It's like a, it's kind of like a chicken. And then you have Joseph the Parrot. Because that's the parrot. Zekarioka, his name is like Jose, kind of. And Jose is literally the translation of Joseph from the Bible. So, that's the origin of the name. And that's a... Doug that's a cartoon that's a cartoon in brazil yes yes okay Ze Carioca And then, that's the origin of the name. Because when I started, I was like an enum. Like, I nicknamed my random characters. Because in the beginning, like, I basically started with when Stark, that was one of the pioneers of the scripted guns, he posted the AR-15 CAD model. Like, a CAD model is like a 3D model. So you can add it and you can see. And that sparked my interest on the community. And right after I got into the community, the FGC-9 was released. And the FGC-9 usually means fuck gun control. So that's the whole idea behind the gun. Yeah, well, I think that's a good question. Doug Explain to that why it means that right because it's basically it's a way for anybody anywhere with access to a 3d printer to essentially Fully create a gap and an access to other simple equipment, right? There's nothing else That's like difficult nothing really difficult to obtain or do right that any Ze Carioca The idea behind the FPC9 was like with basic tools, you don't need like a lathe or a mule, anything like that. Because the whole idea behind it is you get all the complex shapes and outsource it to the 3D printer. And the shapes, like the metal parts are harder to machine and to make, you make them very simple. So all the complex geometry of the gun you put on the 3D printer and you make simple metal shapes that you can make at home. That's the whole idea behind the 3D guns. Like at least the ones that we call fully digital self because there's a categories of guns. And what Stark did and what, and the guns I do are the guns that are in the category of digital self guns. The whole idea is to make a gun that does not use complex parts at all. So that's the whole idea behind the FPC9. And that's what got me interested in it. Doug And so why were you interested in that concept? Were you already passionate about guns? Were you a designer that just kind of stumbled into this and thought it'd be cool to see if you could make one? Or were you kind of philosophically passionate about this concept of liberating the design for gun access and basically creating a world where anybody can defend themselves, can get access and print a weapon that they can use to defend themselves? Or like in this state? Ze Carioca I saw that, and I thought it was very, very cool. Because in the beginning, I was interested in guns, like guns, gun laws here, not that great. So I wasn't able to have access to them. So that thing kind of died in me. And when I saw that, and I saw that project is really cool, and not giving much details into my personal life, I was always a tinkerer. So I always liked to play stuff, like mod stuff, like with electronics and everything. And when I saw the FPC9, I was like, okay, I think I can do something different. That maybe can be better. And that's when I started trying to add another type of magazine to the FPC9. That's how it all started, because I made some changes to the FPC9, and showed people, and they really, really liked it. And I started to notice that I was able to do stuff that usually other people weren't able to do. So maybe I have a special ability. Maybe I don't know God gave me the ability to do it. And after that, after getting in contact with the community, I was, quote unquote, hijacked by the whole philosophy behind it, because I went in just for the guns and for the mechanical engineering of it, for the fun of it. And then I just felt that you have a whole lot of philosophy behind it, and ideologies behind it that are awesome. And I never had contact with that. And when people talked about that, and I was like, hmm, I agree with that. I never saw that, but I agreed with that. So that's when it started. And it was not a hobby anymore. It was something like a colonist. Doug And so you got into it for the technical side of it, the creative side of it, just wanting to build something, create something. And then as you did that, you learned and realized the important philosophical end to it and what justifies you even doing it. Because at the end of the day, you're building a very powerful tool and you're creating it a way where you're fundamentally changing the balances of the world, right? How power is distributed, giving access to, letting people, liberty-loving people have access to this type of power so they could defend themselves and defend themselves primarily if you believe that the Second Amendment stands for this, but to defend themselves from tyranny. From the state itself, not just even from people that may want to come rob you, but mobs and mobs like the state themselves that want to inflict violence upon it. Basically, you're taking away their monopoly on violence and allowing people to defend Ze Carioca the same way that Monero took the monopoly of money. I think printed guns took away the monopoly of violence. And like, one thing I like to mention when I'm talking with friends like from the community is that what started and what I continue to do is we gave our answer to the gun control problem. It's like, we won. There's nothing like, there's no way to control it anymore. And we kind of shift the whole discussion is like, how will they deal with those new tools? Because control is impossible. Speaker 2 Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Speaker 4 Thank you. Doug the the maker tipped a dollar rest in peace jay stark yes so he was kind of the first guy right to really create the first fully do what do it yourself right yeah 3d printed gun how would you how would you say yours differs from his creations was an improvement upon what what is the difference between what he achieved and then then your iterations Ze Carioca So the thing here is I'll just open real quick some document. Doug Yeah, if you want to if you want to bring up some photos videos as well as you explain things you're obviously more That would be great, too Ze Carioca have it. But basically, to give some context to that, I would like to mention what mainly Greg and Smith and Ivy wrote. That's called the new Second Amendment. That's also tied to the tower. I'll do on MoneroKon. That's the next steps on achieving true liberty. Because I think like, I don't know if there's more steps, but the steps I know that are a must to have is free money and no monopoly of violence. There may be more, but they're true that I 100% know that there are neither of those two. So we're talking about the FGC9, because FGC9 was not the first step. But the FGC9 was the first to try to meet the triple constraint. That's a terror that me and Ryan Smith, the guy who wrote the documentation, the instructions of my gun, we coined that terror. What means the triple constraint? We have three objectives. It's like, the practicality of manufacturing processes. What does that mean? It has to be easy to make. That's the first thing. The second objective is invulnerability of the state integration. So it must be hard for the state to track, to monitor and to control. And the third objective is the competitiveness with modern standards. So basically, it has to be easy to make, hard to the state to control and to be on par or try to be on par with modern guns. The FGC9 was not the first gun to do it yourself, gun to be made. But it was the first gun to try to meet those three. For example, we have the Liberator. The Liberator from Kobe Wilson and 2013 Doug the defense distributed right Cody Wilson yeah yeah mm-hmm Ze Carioca So it achieved their objective one and two, that's easy to make, hard to the states to interfere, but it's not competitive with modern standards. And the FGC-9 was the first gun to try to achieve those three. I'm sorry. Doug I'm sorry, just because I wasn't able to totally hear you, so the difference between what Cody Wilson achieved and what Jay Stark achieved was what? What was the real differentiator? Ze Carioca just going back at it again object the number one is it has to be easy to make number two is it needs to be hard for the state to hit regularly or like track it and three it needs to be like quote unquote a good gun I use it for gun what what code you use on make was a single shotgun that was easy to make hard to the state to track but it was not that useful then you see nine was the that I took those three was used to make it was hard to track and it was useful got it you have 30 rounds of 9mm and in a semi-automatic gun very used for my standards Doug It's pretty interesting because, you know, that's kind of like big picture with Monero too, right? Or digital cash, right? There's a couple of base requirements that it needs to meet. And so, you know, for it to really function as a tool that's useful for people in their, you know, in fighting, essentially, and not allowing the state to wield power over them. And so it essentially needs to be unstoppable, right? So it needs to be a way where anybody can do it anywhere and the state with their monopoly on violence still can't stop people from doing it. Ze Carioca Like every single one of the people hearing me right now, if you really, really want, you can have a gun in like five days, six days, if you already have a trigger trigger. And like, there's nothing this day can do about it. That's why I say like, that we already want the gun control of the day. And we kind of move the point of discussion. It's not about if we can't control guns. It's like, how will you deal with uncontrollable guns in the hands of three people? Doug And so what would you say to people that would make the you know, the standard argument if they if they heard something like this You know some some normie who's you know her and if somebody who's watching this is maybe maybe hasn't really you know, maybe it doesn't align with these ideas and We'd have it say oh, but there but it's that's dangerous right because bad people will now have access We'll have easier access to these weapons We'll use them to do bad things. What's your response to that? Ze Carioca Oh, like, how can I explain that? Is there any more, like, better people than the people that are in the government right now? That is the technique. The worst kind of people are the ones that are pursuing control against lives of the innocent. And even if you aren't talking about that, there's a question of, like, it's a tool. The same way that Monero is a tool, the three guns are also a tool. I understand, like, I think there's a more shock value in, like, three guns than in free money. But I think they are essentially the same thing. You're just, like, erasing the monopoly of this thing. Doug Yeah, and it's two different tools to use to fight tyranny, right? Physically defending yourself, fighting yourself, fighting, and then using money to fight through essentially free speech, unstoppable free speech actions of allowing you to use your value to make an impact, to coordinate with other people, to use money for those purposes, and to fight back tyranny that way, right? Without the state being able to surveil it, censor it, or take it away from you, right? And extract the value from you. Ze Carioca like I was really really impressed with with how similar the Monero and the critical kingdom is just like I think we have the same objectives but we try to achieve it in on different ways or like we choose different battles I guess like but to achieve the same goal Doug Ace's Country Store, awards Ace's Country Store tipped, and by the way, they are listed on XMR Bazaar. They're a Monero-accepting country store here in the US. I recommend you look them up on XMR Bazaar. The founders didn't write the Second Amendment for fucking hunting, right? They wrote it because they knew tyranny doesn't knock. Disarmament is never about safety. It's about control. With the advent of CBDCs around the corner, guns are more important than ever. Disarmament is never about safety, right? They're obviously going to frame it about safety, and that's how they win the populace over. They scare people just like we see with Monero, right? Oh, it could be used for funding terrorism. It could be used for money laundering. Bad people can use it to finance bad things. Ze Carioca around the like a nice view to swallow the nesting inside. Doug Right, while ignoring all the essential things that make it important, that it's used to ensure that people can maintain their liberty without tyranny. So your project is beyond the FGC 9. So let's get back to that for a second. So I understand essentially what the invention was that Jay Stark brought about and how that was a leap from what Cody Wilson had previously done. So not only making something that anybody can make and doing it in a way that the state can't easily stop, but having it to be effective in what it's supposed to be doing. So then how have you then taken it a step further? I guess just adding additional technical capabilities to it so it functions even better. Ze Carioca actually is a different approach and we have to dive down a bit on the technical part of it, but I'm sure it would be easy to understand. Doug Yeah, let's do it. I would love to understand you know the improvements that you made here. Okay, so basically Ze Carioca what the improvements I made is that the FPC9 uses parts that can be regulated in some countries. For example, I don't know if you can show that, but like if you Google the AR-15 fire control group, that's a part that is regulated in some countries and that's a part that the FPC9 uses. On the beginning you could get airsoft equivalent parts and it would work, but that would be all closed. After that they tried to do a printed fire control group and I forgot to mention the more important part that explains what a fire control group is. It's basically the trigger mechanism. The whole trigger mechanism does what we call the fire control group and the FPC9 uses the AR-15 trigger mechanism and that trigger mechanism is not optimized to be printed and is regulated like in some countries. For example, in Brazil I think it was regulated until like five or six years ago and now they are unregulated. What I did with that was I made a fire control group that was designed from scratch to be printed. So one flower of the FPC9 was it had parts that could be regulated in some countries and I eliminated that. Another part is that, how can I explain also, the magazine of the FPC9 was not 100% reliable and I use a different magazine that's also made to be 100% printed that is reliable. A third thing is like the FPC9 internal parts, like the bolt, that's the part that goes back and forth. It needs to be welded. You need to have a welding machine to make it and I also eliminated that. The orbital bolt does not need to be welded. You can just like get a drill and pin it in place. So the improvements over the FPC9 were technical but I basically, I can't be 100% sure because maybe someone comes up with some information and didn't do it at the time but I think the orbital that's the gun you guys see here on the screen right now is the first gun that is satisfied the three objectives of the new second amendment that does not use any regulated parts worldwide. So in the entire world, in any country, you can build a tower with stuff that you can buy at the hardware store. Doug Anybody, anywhere, essentially, with access to a 3D printer and the filament and then access to a hardware store where they can buy the other pieces they need, can assemble one. Ze Carioca Yeah, there's no parts in the dial that are regulated in any country. Maybe the magazine screen, but beside the magazine screen, you can make it a home too. So yeah, you can make the dial with like zero, zero, zero parts that are regulated anywhere in the world. Doug that is pretty incredible. What do you think about him, Matt? I mean, so do you have concerns with like, do you think sometimes, am I on the wrong side here of history or are you very confident in your belief that conquest leads to more liberty for all? Ze Carioca When I think about rationally, yeah, it is for more liberty, for now. But I think it's healthy for you to have like this introspection. It's like, am I the bad guy? Am I doing something wrong? Because one thing a friend told me is that a bad guy wouldn't have that reflection. He was so ridiculous. And I think that's a good part for you to like sit down and like, am I doing the right thing? Doug right thing. That's good. Yeah, 100%. You know, I'd say once again, same with Monero, right? You know, and I asked my that myself that question, obviously, I'm on the side of no, we are, in fact, on the right side of history here, despite the amount of power that we're distributing and giving to anybody anywhere. Ultimately, this is power that's being taken away from people that have centralized it and use it to wield their power and tyranny over others. There's really no other way around it, right? So what do you think, man? Like, what do you think is a more important tool? Obviously, I guess you can say both, but, you know, in terms of fighting tyranny and ensuring that, you know, we can prevent ourselves from slipping into it further untraceable digital cash, a way for us to transact really even just cash itself or guns, people having access to guns. Ze Carioca I may be biased, but I think guns are more important. Because at least on my head, we have the whole power theory. And I think the whole power derives on the capacity or the possibility of violence. And I think it's very important. If I had to choose one, I would choose guns first, obviously. But I think both are important. Because you need guns to protect your assets. And the whole thing, the oppressive states, the tyrannic states are important, is violence. And I think at least the first step to have true freedom is to remove the monopoly of violence from them. Because when you remove the monopoly of violence, everything becomes easier. You can have free money easier. You can have free everything easier. So I think the guns are more important on that assumption. Because they are the first step to be truly free. Doug Yeah, I mean, you know, and obviously it makes sense that you would say that, right? Because your passion is in is in designing a gun that anybody can print anywhere. I'd actually not surprisingly as well would lean on the side of digital cash. Only because I think of where we're at in history, right? So if you would have told me, you know, it was 300 years ago, I would say a gun was more important at that time because the methods that were used by the state really were physical, right? Physical shows of force. But now it's like a different type of violence, right? We're all living our living our lives, going about our daily lives, kind of slowly getting boiled by the, you know, getting boiled by the state. Right. We're fraught. We're frogs in a pot where the temperature is slowly being raised. And it's more so about being able to fight against tyranny through not allowing the state to surveil us and extract extract value from us. And I just think it's a tool that could be more widely distributed as much as this something like this in a gun in theory could be distributed. I think something like a cryptocurrency could even more easily be distributed. I mean, like we're already saying, right? So I think it's fair to say more people have access to crypto than have access to printing one of these. And if we could get a wallet in everybody's pocket and get people to start living off of each other peer to peer, it really will start to take away a lot of power that the state has with without us ever firing a shot. Right. It allows us to fight back peacefully and very effectively where anybody anywhere can participate in the revolution simply by ignoring the state peacefully. Right. Ignoring them and just living off of each other peer to peer with the form of of currency that they literally can't stop. Yeah. It's like. Ze Carioca for you like the information you gave them and yeah I can't understand your point like removing that information removing that like because everything runs with money and if they don't have money I don't think like a cop will come to collect taxes if he doesn't get paid Doug Right. Yeah. Right. I mean, like the scenario where we're going to need guns to fight against the tyranny seems like something that happens later. Like when shit really, really hit the fan and like we've lost the battle, the digital cash thing didn't work. So in that end, it's like the means of last resort, right? Of like, well, at least we have some ability to physically coordinate together and start to win back our liberty. But I'm obviously really hoping things never get to that point here in this country. Ze Carioca one thing that I like perspective on is like is there a third thing because like we need free cash we need to stop the monopoly of viruses and I think like are those two enough is there like a third thing that we are missing so like that's Doug Yeah, I mean, I guess there's there's other like small I don't know like in terms of like first principle things Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I gotta think about that I mean, so yeah, we're saying to stop the monopoly on violence to stop the monopoly On money money printing. I mean those are really there too. They're two biggest monopolies that the state has, right? They they sanction essentially the use of money and control it and only they're allowed to extract violence I mean and they're also the only ones that are allowed to make essentially that make rules that society has to follow So they also have a monopoly on that right? Yeah That they're the ones that that that that write the rule book and then So they're really the only ones that get the right, but obviously the idea is that we live in democracies Participate in that rulemaking process, but we all know the system is so corrupted. That's not all Wards Ace and country store tip 25 cents We sell a wide variety of springs possibly one that would work for a magazine spring if not I'd be happy to bring some into the store. Oh, very cool. Very cool. So there you go You have a hardware store that Carries everything you need thinking to obviously so another thing is encryption, right? So We don't want the state to have a monopoly on being able to communicate Communicate in an encrypted way. We want people to be able to independently be able to communicate In an encrypted way, right? So we don't want them to have a monopoly on encryption and thankfully they don't right because They would essentially need to have a monopoly on math to be able to pull that off. They tried making it a you know illegal for Encryption to be used for communication purposes In the 90s with PGP, right? They tried to even label it as arms as as as You know shipping arms, right if you were encryption tools to foreigners But they thankfully they lost that that battle for constitutional reasons But I'd say that's another primary thing itself. Just the ability to communicate Through encryption without so so communicate in a way where you can't be stopped or Ze Carioca like some issues with like first amendment things on the gun side cuz for example it's it's like a legal gray area nobody's not sure about it but for example fully automatic firearms the specs and how to make a fully automatic firearms are internally regulated so like I think there's a lot they are infringing on the first amendment because I think that's our right you have the right to information from a free Doug free speech, right? So it's just data. Right, right, right. So it's same as like you have the right to run a Monero node, right? You have the right to run Monero software. You have the right to develop Monero. Just so you have the right to develop these 3D printed designs. And people have the right to run the software, run the programs, and to hit the print button. And I mean, those are all literally forms of speech, right? Even the printing of the gun itself is a form of speech, just like a sculptor making a sculpture, right? For, you know, that in itself is speech. So yeah, there's definitely first amendment things going on here, too, in terms of why everybody should have the right to essentially be able to print their own gun. In terms of constitution, right? Because, you know, Brazil, it's a different animal. So like you said, you got into these things. What was your, you know, kind of, where were you coming from philosophically before getting into this? Like given that you grew up in Brazil and you were influenced by, you know, the Brazilian government and culture and schooling. Right here in America, whether you think it is a free country, right? I think we've had better times. We've had high times, we have low times. It's at least purportedly tried to be that, right? And we do have a constitution, which in theory, if we're followed, would lead to, would certainly lead to people having liberty in their daily lives. But, you know, Brazil's a little bit of a different animal. So what kind of, what was your philosophical take before you went down this rabbit hole? So like, I, Ze Carioca is like flirted with like the whole diversity thing. We're like, one thing I think that's, at least like talking with friends, like American friends is that the whole concept of America is like, if you're not satisfied with things going in Europe, you have a free land that you can go and be truly free. I think the problem with Brazil is like, we were like a colony and then we became an empire. And then when we became a republic, it was not like in a free reign, it wasn't a messed up way. And the thing, how can I explain that? When I mentioned the first and the second amendment, I tried to not tie this with the American because the first and the second amendment and the whole like construction, I guess, founding of America is based on universal concepts that I think can be applied worldwide. Like you may have like cultural problems, but I think that if you apply the first and the second amendment like worldwide, we can, the world will be better. So when, like I said, like I was a norm here, you guys, before when I started doing dance, because like I was just a norm guy interested in the mechanics of it. And then I was introduced with the whole philosophy of it. And it's kind of like taking the red pill because like the war falls down and everything you believe, like it's all right, I guess. So that was like pretty hard to me, to be honest. And to know like, actually I don't live in a free country. People got this image of Brazil of like, I don't know soccer, Samba and parties. And I think the styles with the whole bread and circus thing because like we have this, the mask, like huge, huge beaches. We have like government and oppression. So it's like, I don't consider Brazil a free country. I don't think Brazil was ever a free country. And there's also a way for me to like, try to give the word something to fight, I guess. Because how can I explain that? Like, it's hard to put the words because when you reflect upon it, you see that there's a whole like, there's a whole group and now like everything trying to like control you and like, I feel like I'm in a horror movie. I don't know, I like it. This is dystopia. Even in America, some things are very, very dystopic. Doug Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, we have Elon Musk sitting in the White House running his AI for, you know, putting all government's data into his, his AI database. The technocracy is is growing globally. Ze Carioca blend of 1984 and brave new war and like Doug Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, like you're saying first and second amendment You know and it's not about Getting the whole world to adopt it through a promise that the state says hey You know according to this piece of paper We won't break these rules and we won't we won't infringe on your free speech We won't infringe on your right to defend yourself from us It's not about getting them to all Promise to agree to words on a piece of paper, but it's about right It's about just doing it taking it ourselves and building tools that allow us to just own it and take it ourselves Without asking them for permission Ze Carioca Yeah, that's like, if you're asking, I think there's a saying in America like that, three men don't ask. And that's basically like, if you're asking, you're not free anymore. Doug Yeah, you know, I get some shit for wanting to take the political approach to here in the US. I think, you know, I think it's worth our efforts to fight on multiple fronts. So obviously, first and foremost, a crypto anarchist, cypherpunk, right? I live by let's opt out, let's use Monero, let's ignore the state. That's how we win. But at the same time, I think there's value, at least here in this country at this time. I don't know how things are in Brazil overall. But here in this country at this time, it could be worth trying to do things politically as well, getting the government to be more okay with cryptocurrency, more okay with untraceable digital cash to basically my reasoning being so that more people can access it, more normies can access it, start to use it, and then we grow in strength that way. So I don't know if you have any, you know, if you agree with that at all, or if you're just more of the anarchist approach, ignore, completely ignore the state. Ze Carioca endeavor but I don't think that would work but it's always like uh it's always Doug just to fuck it up. Yeah, and it depends on what the political atmosphere is. Right now, like we said, things are slipping towards tyranny. But Trump won the election by selling liberty, right? That's what people want. Look at Argentina, right? Liberty is a popular thing. And I'm sure even in Brazil, your president there, right? Yeah, I mean like... Ze Carioca here he he's on the like the control side but his election was also useful because like people are getting mad and he can like hijack this this sentiment to look look you are mad because he's fucking over because of x y z and the solution is liberty and it is freedom here so i think even even those problems we can use Doug Let me scroll up, bring up the KUNO, so we have the KUNO up here guys, you could scan the QR code or you could go to the KUNO itself. Oh yeah, this is a KUNO for Joseph to get to Prague to talk at MoneroKon. Super cool that he's trying to pull this off. MoneroKon has accepted him as a speaker. He will be talking about, I assume, pretty much all the things we talked about here today, right? You know, what his mission is, what he's working on, why he thinks it's important, why it aligns with the ideals of Monero. So if you want to help make that happen, please do consider sending some Monero so we can get... He's asking for 10xMR, get him over to Prague, let him hang out with the other cypherpunk, crypto-anarchist geniuses. We need him in a room over there hanging out with those dudes, seeing what they could make up next. And then obviously love for him to give the talk and get the content out there. So I'm sure he'll get the funding. But guys, yeah, please, please, let's help him make it happen. Ze Carioca Because the whole idea behind it was from a guy called untraceable on Twitter. And he's on the bridge between those two boards. And he saw they meet each other. Because I think talking with you, and I hope that you also notice it that I think our goals are the same. We're just taking different approaches. And when he saw that, he talked to me about, like, hey, maybe you can go to a monercom and, like, purge the bubble, I guess, and, like, bridge and make this bridge between, like, cryptoarmacous and the gun guys. Because, like, we have the exact same philosophy. And, like, I think those two philosophies are very, very, very compatible. But there's, like, almost no overlap behind it. And if there's overlap behind it, it's, like, very covert. Because I don't see any. And that's the whole idea behind it, like, go to break and give a talk about how guns tie to financial freedom. How can we? It's basically, like, two fronts of the same battle. And the whole idea is to birth the bubble. And present the guns to the Monero guys and present Monero to the gun guys. And, like, I think, like, this is, like, the grassroots anarchy movement to, like, bring people together and do something that is not, like, depending on state or, like, any figure is like that. And, yeah, that's the whole point of the battle. Like, to push the bubble. Doug it makes sense right the community should be aligned and the the bubble has you know has been burst years ago right I mean we had the guns in Bitcoin conference there was a lot of crossover there and a lot of those those that the guy who ran that went on to basically bring Monero into his conference right he's so he was on the fringe of Bitcoin a Bitcoiner that got into Monero right and it makes sense because he had these these these strong beliefs that are shared among you know the gun gun printing community right and so like that's Ze Carioca saying that Monero is what a normity Bitcoin is? Yes. Doug Exactly. Exactly. But I think what is interesting though, MoneroKon itself is a little bit of a different crowds. It's the European Monero users and community. It's a little different than the American Monero community. Obviously, there's a lot of overlap there. Everybody's aligned with digital cash, but there's different political groups that might be more prevalent at that conference versus, let's say, MoneroTopia, that the conference that we run in, we've ran it in Mexico the last two years, we had it in Miami. There we have a lot of anarchists that come and talk about topics that may not completely align with everything that's talked about at MoneroKon and vice versa. Pretty much at the end, the Venn diagram pretty much is an overlap. But I do think there's some of the community, there's some, you'd be surprised in Monero, right? So obviously, you think it's mostly just like pure libertarians, anarchists. But there's a lot of left-leaning ideologies that are in Monero as well, which I personally see as a great thing because that means we literally attract all parts of the political spectrum, right? If you go far enough left, you end up coming back around the other side anyway. So if you go all the way left and go all the way right, both of those groups agree that digital cash is a good thing. Ze Carioca I had some like quote unquote problems with that, but I think it's just like cultural differences. Cause for example, if I take like a norm in Brazilian and tell him about my ideas, he would agree more cause he lives on a like a less safe society. So I understand the European side cause like this is so far removed from his reality. Like where on earth are European leaders so machine gun to defend himself? Like, so I completely understand. Those are just cultural differences. And I think when you approach it on the right on with the right approach and explaining things like logically, you would like 90% of the time can have an agreement. Even if like he, he, he, his culture is, is a little bit different from the, like the American culture or like the Brazilian culture. Cause the president coach arrives, the American culture is all liberty and the president coaches like, okay, it's just like hanging out wild. I need something to defend myself. It's more pragmatic on this whole gun thing. And the American view on the guns, more like liberty and stuff. Doug Exactly, exactly. And don't get me wrong, right? Jay Stark was from Germany, right? So it's not that Europe, there's a lot of pure, anarchist, crypto-anarchist. I mean, a lot of the biggest Monero guys are out of Europe, crypto-anarchist. But yeah, it's not in America, right? We grow up with Second Amendment. It's like guns, it's a right for everybody to bear arms. So it's a little bit different over there in ways. But obviously, people in Europe that have read their history know the importance of being able to defend yourself against the state. So there's a lot of that in their history as well. But I think it will be interesting when you present, you might get some pushback. I don't know, maybe not. But I'll be interesting to see what the entire community over there, what their reaction is to basically giving everybody with access to a 3D printer, the ability to print a gun as easy as it is to spin up a Monero wallet, right? Ze Carioca the fact that if you keep talking to people that agree with you, that I'm a niche, it's not that useful. You have to talk to the people that don't agree with you. And you have to expand, I would say, expand the bubble or burst the bubble, I don't know. But you need to talk to the people that don't agree with you. Because most of the people don't... Not that they're a better way, but most of them are just normies. And they just not have some time to think about it. And when you talk to with someone and you see that the guys are some crazy terrorists, or I don't know, I hope that when I talk with people that don't agree with me, they will see that I'm not a crazy terrorist or like crazy, I don't know. I'm a normal guy, just like them. And I just have a different opinion. And I'm just... The actors share a different opinion in that way. A well behaved way, I guess. Doug Yeah, I don't know if you know, but during MoneroKon, I won't be there. This will be my first time I won't be able to attend MoneroKon, but we're going to be throwing another event at the same time here in the US. It's going to be at Porkfest. I don't know if you're familiar with Porkfest, but that's also another liberty-loving event. You definitely have a lot of fanfare there, and we'll be playing your talk there live. Great. Everybody that attends Porkfest is a liberty-loving individual. It's a bunch of libertarians. It takes place in New Hampshire. It's people that really believe in opting out. There's strong beliefs in the Second Amendment. You'll see people walking around carrying guns. Yeah, all people using gold and silver and goldbacks to transact and Monero to transact. It's all about opting out. But yeah, I think you would actually have a lot of fans and interest over there as well. So we're going to be playing all the talks, but we'll most certainly highlight yours. I think we'll see a lot of people interested wanting to come watch it. Ze Carioca I didn't know about Orkfest before this whole Moneta content, but I did my research and now I know about it. Doug That that's good. That's working. Yeah, cuz we're collaborating with Monero con So that was the idea right because there's a lot of like the once again the European Monero crowd They don't even know about pork fest and I wasn't able to make it this year to Monero con So I thought let's let's collaborate bring the conferences together And so we're playing our talks on their end and they're playing there is on our end and just Getting the word out that the both of these events are happening simultaneously I'm hoping it could be a day where the Monero Transaction count goes up as people are using it at both of these conferences and as we're building up to the day of this big Big event. I mean it will be the biggest Monero event to date because there'll be two things happening at once So it should be should be pretty amazing Ze Carioca awesome like the whole thing with like America is like I had some problems with my visa so like Europe is easy Doug It's easier for you actually. Ze Carioca Yeah, I can go to the European Union, we bought a Visa, and to us, I need the Visa. Doug Maybe we get you to Monerotopia, not the one at Porkfest, but the next one we're going to be doing, and we'll be back in Mexico again at the same venue. Maybe we'll get you over there. Mexico, I'm sure you could easily- Oh, yeah, I think it's possible, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why we do it in Mexico City. It's very globally accessible for all, so we'll be doing it there yet again. That's in February 2026, so put that in your calendar. Maybe we'll get you over there. Yeah, I think that's possible. But let's get, before we end this, I would love to maybe get more of your Monero take itself, right? So, obviously, you understand the tech, you understand the ideology, but, yeah, tell us a little bit, like, is there a crypto story? So, we know your gun story. You found your way into, now, the Monero community because people reaching out to you, seeing the crossover. But do you have kind of your own crypto story? Are you into crypto? Did you find your way into crypto through 3D-printed guns, or were you already making your way into it? Ze Carioca I started with Bitcoin, and when I studied and learned about Bitcoin, I was like, this... Because I also have a background in electric engineering and computer engineering. So I'm not that normie on that. But when I was going to learn about the Bitcoin, I think that's everywhere people start. I saw that the whole transparent chain was kind of fucked up. Because I think I sent some Bitcoin to a friend and was able to see his wallet. And I was like, man, there's something wrong with that. But I didn't think about it at the time and just forgot about it. And when I started doing this whole gun thing, asking for donations. Because my whole work is based on donations. And this whole transparent chain thing came to me. And I was like, yeah, I can't do Bitcoin. I can, but there's too much work to do it right. And with Monero, I can just do all of the bugs, plug and play, and way easier. So that's what was my shift to Bitcoin there. And also because I wanted to explain it. Doug I was gonna say, which makes a lot of sense, right? If somebody like you isn't using Monero for donations, then we're doing something wrong, right? I think the use case for you makes a ton of sense. You're doing something controversial, and people are now using free speech money to fund what you're doing in an unstoppable way. Yeah. Ze Carioca Like how can I explain that? I think if I get doxed, I maybe get some jail time, but I'm not sure about that. But if I get doxed, I'll probably have some problems politically, and it's very, very important for me to not get doxed, and when I did my research, I saw that it's possible to use Bitcoin in an anonymous way, but I'm also kind of lazy, and everybody is a little bit lazy, and doing Bitcoin right, it's not that much work, but it's more work than Monero. So that's why I opt to go to Monero. That's the, and also because the whole Monero community is way more aligned with my goals, the Bitcoin community. One critic I have against Bitcoin is like, at least in Brazil, the Brazilian Bitcoin community, they are much more like, nobody go work than like the true philosophy behind it. So I felt the touch with them, and I felt much more like welcome, the ideas I'm behind are much more welcome in the Monero community. Even with the European Monero growth, even then, they are much more aligned with the Monero community. Doug Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna fit right in But I mean, you know that that's everywhere that the Bitcoin community is number go up everywhere now That is the cult that is 90% of the culture of Bitcoin. Obviously, it started off more with the Monero culture and It's since moved away from that. Yeah Exactly sadly sadly, um, but you know, it's it's great to see that you found your way to Monero and obviously it makes sense It'd be it'd be concerning if you weren't using if you weren't using Monero, I'd be I'd be curious You know if somebody like you and your position wasn't choosing to use Monero for donations Yeah, then we're really we're doing something wrong here that the tool isn't being used for its intended purpose You mentioned not wanting to be docs or whatever and remaining and how are you doing that with attending? conference physically Ze Carioca there is only one way to go. I hope I do it right, because there's something like I was thinking to myself, like, even if I get docs or something similar, it will be worth it, because this is bigger than me now. And like, I have an objective that I need to achieve. And even if it means getting docs, if I do something useful to the world, I'm willing to pay that price, because how can I explain that? I think it's too late right now. I think I gave enough information that I'll probably get docs anyway, so I'll make the best of it with why I can. And like, also one thing I would like to ask you as a kind of outsider, what do you think about this whole thing, like this whole like gun community thing, and like free guns for our guys, like anyone can make a gun. Like, I'm very interested in some opinions of outsider picking because sometimes I'm afraid I'm in a bubble. Doug Yeah, you're asking me, what's my take? I mean, I think it's everything we spoke about today, right? So I align with these philosophies of giving people the tool that they need to defend themselves from tyranny. And so I think, ultimately, the way you do that is by democratizing access to it. And I strongly align with taking away the state's monopoly of violence. You know, for me, it's obviously, like we're saying, all these things, right? In many ways, it's synonymous with digital cash. But obviously, the negative aspects to it are a little bit more real and in your face with gun printing. Because it's a physical thing, right, that's used for not just defending yourself, but used for committing violence on others. So, me, philosophically, I'm a little less apprehensive to passionately support that ideology. But I align with it. But I wouldn't be vocal and make that my passion of strongly pushing and advocating for it. Maybe that will change with me with time. But I would more sooner focus on the digital cash things, which I think are also obviously very controversial, right? But there, I can more philosophically justify, just like you justify, right? Like, same with me, right? I mean, I am doxed, right? And I don't just do this show and tell people to use Monero, but then I'm also the person behind XMR Bazaar, which is a platform that people can use it to buy things off of each other peer-to-peer, only legal goods, right? Legal goods only. But still, it's arguably something that the state might not be happy with, right? That's why I'm in Monero itself. I know the state ultimately doesn't want it to exist. But me, I philosophically align with these ideas and I'm willing to go all the way with them and fight for them and let the repercussions be what they may be. I know that I believe I'm on the right side of history. With giving everybody access to 3D printed guns, I mean, based on the conversation we've had here today, I think it ends up in the same area, ethically and philosophically, but I just haven't personally gotten there to the point where that would be my, you know, passion in the world, if that makes sense. Ze Carioca My approach is a little bit crazier than ours, I guess. Doug Yeah, I mean it's it's more. It's more risky, and it's a little bit like I said because of the You know the negatives right Monero comes of it with very real negatives to perhaps Even arguably can be even worse right than what can happen with one 3d printed gun right it can be used By very bad people to fund very bad evil things right I you know I'm not I'm not in denial of that but just like the u.s. Dollar could be done for views for that gold could be used for that and so you know you find yourselves in these these you know these ethical balancing acts, but We you just have to we have to realize that the the the the pros far outweigh The cons in terms of giving liberty to all so as an outsider and not being in the bubble That's that's where I stand on it And I think I am an outsider because I am not I am not like a passionate 3d gun printer guy But for everything we said and you know in this talk. That's that is where I do align I think obviously second amendment. I think guns are an essential tool for for defending our tyranny It's just maybe I would I would I would tread a little differently But I think I think this is where we need to take it because at the end of the day like you said They do have that monopoly and when shit really really does hit the fan We need that last line of defense, and we need people to be able to have access to it Ze Carioca And like the whole thing, like pizza, the terrace, even if you don't actually use it, it's there, the terrace. Doug It's there as a deterrent, is that what you said? Yes, yes, yes, exactly. It democratizes the ability of people to defend themselves. Ze Carioca Yeah, and like I completely understand your thing, like when you are in the bubble, those things are kind of normal when but when you talk with like a quote unquote normie or some someone outside the bubble, you can see like how crazy like cyberpunk is like this whole I know that Doug I know like this is the but you're still in the bubble right now. Don't think you're out of the bubble. I'm not as you know I'm not the guy that's designing these things like you. But the tech that we're working on is a different form of the same thing. And when I talk to normies which I do all the time it's the same thing and I do I see their eyes start to glaze over when I see the floor right. Yeah exactly. They're like whoa this guy's a freakin psycho like all right. You know it's one thing they're like oh how do I get it. You think it's going to go up in value. That's cool. I'm like go up like this. This is so the state can't can't come and surveil us. And they're like well all right buddy like yeah. Yeah I might get some Monero but you know I'm not I don't think you know dystopia is knocking at our doors. I think that's the difference between us and these people the bubble is really that we are of the camp that believes that tyranny is in fact a real thing no matter where you are in the world. And that if we don't have the tools we need to prevent it it will inevitably you know find us all and control us all. Ze Carioca And like, it's very hard seeing like there's another like, there's another side of it, and how can I explain, I have my bubble, I have yours, at least all bubbles are kind of lined, and that's refreshing, because like, I don't feel that alone in this. Doug Yeah, we need to normalize it right and that's where the politics comes in right That's because the political end fighting that side, right? So there's there's a cypherpunk end crypto anarchists and we'll just head down building our stuff opting out But the political end is normalizing it right. It's making the bubble bigger, right? How do we how do we make the bubble larger? We need people to understand? our Thinking our ethics our philosophy and get them to understand why This will improve the world and that we truly genuinely believe it will And that only happened, you know that happens with obviously us talking among ourselves But also politically it's what will allow the normies to find their way into into these bubbles Ze Carioca over the window. Doug Exactly XMR chat XMR tip 69 bringing back freedom one freedom tech at a time Exactly and then Andrew Collins tip 25 cents been narrow is the best. I do agree I do I do agree. I do tend to agree about other other privacy coins So you mentioned Bitcoin obviously and then you realize that it didn't really function. Well As as cash because everybody could see what you're doing You don't want everybody to see when you're getting receiving donations or whatnot I want other like competing privacy privacy coins like you know zcash or You know anything else that that Caught your eye or that you think is interesting or do you think Monero is has won that use case? Ze Carioca I think honestly, for me, I went straight to like, being an army, to Bitcoin, to Monero. Because like, I saw some stuff about like, I think it's like, Zano, something like that, and did some research and was like, yeah, it's probably good. Doug Wow, you saw you saw Zayna. Okay, that's that's recent too So when did you so so your move your move from Bitcoin to Monero is pretty recent that I guess right Ze Carioca like two years ago something like that because like the whole thing for me is like not get lost and when I saw with the whole like the transparent blockchain thing it's like I'm that thing I'll have to commit an error and get shaft on that one I need to find something better and then that's when I saw the whole like the minority because there's also like this is also I stay almost there but there is also a good thing the whole dark markets yes Doug they're just going to get to that, right? Like if people are using on that. Ze Carioca markets, it's safe enough for me to use it and not care. Doug Exactly it sends a very strong signal right and even people that see you use it also sends a signal now, right? Ze Carioca What I'm doing is normal, but for a normie, what I'm doing is completely absurd, like making free guns, free written guns, and using crypto money, cryptocurrency to fund all development. When I saw that, it's normal for me, but I can completely understand a normie scene. I think it's going crazy. Doug Do you, I mean, do you talk about this in your, in your day-to-day, uh, with normal? Because you try to keep it separate. You don't want, you don't want to, you actually have to adopt yourself, right? Ze Carioca No, no, Joseph and like me, I have two personas that I try to keep as separate as possible. Sometimes there's conflict between them, like they start conflicting with each other, like they start like hitting each other and then become one. Because at the end of the day, me and Joseph are the same person. I'm just putting some effort to keep it separate, but like at the end of the day, yeah, I'm just a single guy. But I try to keep those as separate as possible, because even if I'm not committing crimes in Hungary, I'm quote unquote enemy of the state. And I don't know how it is in America, but like in Brazil, you can get arrested even if you don't commit any crime. Just because I'm going to put a crime in me. So it's hard for me to openly talk about that. Doug Yeah, I mean here in America right to like, you know that they'll accuse you of things and then you have to prove prove your innocence Right and it's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty But the reality is it's guilty into until proven innocent You know, we've seen their tornado cash guys get attacked. We've seen the samurai wallet guy. Yeah Right, so they're fighting those legal battles You know, there's there's been other obviously a lot of other crypto people Roger Vare Right is dealing dealing with issues. So the state will will go after those that Are thorn in its side even if they're you know legally not not not breaking any laws per se as far as we understand them Where do you do so is that where you think you'd see potential troubles? It would be from the Brazilian government because I don't know man You know last thing I would want to do is divert you from doing something but you know, be be careful, right? Like We need you we need you not Being arrested. We need you being able to do your work Without you know that the state up your ass So just just be careful. Maybe maybe talk to some other people too as to whether or not that's the best thing obviously, I you know, I think you I think I think you would be fine, but You know just since I have the opportunity to tell you I would tell you to to be careful Ze Carioca Like, that's something I think about every day. But like, even if I get shaft of this whole situation, I think it's worth it. Like, I don't think I did enough as it is right now, but if it ended today, it would be already be worth it. Cause like, when we are talking about like owner, it's not like, you have to get the reward. You do the right thing because it's right, not because I'm trying to get any reward from it. So that's the whole like sentiment I guess I have. It's like, I'm doing this thing because I feel it's right. And I feel like I'm doing the right thing. So even if they like the police show up tomorrow morning, I would be satisfied with what I did. And I hope like someone else take the torch and keep pushing to the end of like the monopoly on violence of the state. Doug That's some that's some heavy stuff, man, and I I know you actually believe it because you are working on these things and you're passionately working on them and Yeah, you're putting yourself in danger. I mean you're up against some very very powerful entities and the Technology that you're improving and that you're working on is In you know a direct antithesis to what they ultimately try to. Oh, yeah So I wish you the best of luck brother and I will say again, you know, be careful You know, I know ultimately you're on the right side and ultimately in your heart. You would be okay with it Because of what you've achieved and what you believe but you know, you're you're much better For for the movement and for the revolution If you're in a situation where you don't have to deal with them Yes, but I think you know You'll be good. You'll be good So guys do send your tips Send your donations. We have the QR code up there or you could go to kuno itself and you'll find it Posted on kuno. Let's let's let's let's help Say karaoke I know I'm bano butchering it. Let's let's help him. Let's help him raise his funds Ze Carioca like to thank like someone sent me someone there to the to the trip so I'm very very thankful for that and and I hope like this this whole trip is useful to watch the global and to bridge the two communities because I think we have the same goal you you might not like how yeah how I'm trying to achieve that but we have the same goal. Doug Just made a little donation myself, and I'm sure I'm sure you'll get you'll see more pop up today Oh, I think I'm seeing more here Yeah, beautiful right. I think people are if you pull it up looks like so you should you should see some new donations Looks like it's going up Fantastic man any any other information you want to put out there? Ze Carioca So like if you want to know more about my work, I have a website, it's called Cardiacalworks.com. I can just put like in the private chat there. Doug Yes, please please do let people know where they can find you. Yeah, that's the site Ze Carioca And this is my Twitter handle, Joseph Depere. Just like you guys are seeing, you can find me on Twitter. And if you have any doubts, if you want to start building guns, I'm there to help you. So feel free to message me. If I don't answer you, you probably went to Spain. But I'll do my best to answer all the questions that you guys have. Doug say karaoke thank you so much man and I wish you the best of luck be safe I hope I do get to meet you maybe I see you in Mexico obviously I like I said I won't be at Monero Monero Khan but maybe we see you in Mexico City at Monero Ze Carioca about it because with the whole America thing is how like bureaucracy visa thing but I can probably go to Mexico it's just like a question of like monetary get question Doug got it got it yeah and that should that should even you know that should be easier maybe even then obviously then then flying all the way to Europe Mexico yeah we could we could probably help you get that done as well so all right brother good luck be safe and yeah man God God bless adios Ze Carioca Thanks for having me here. I think that's an important step on bridging the communities and I hope some like fruitful things come from from this this podcast and this whole conversation. Doug Awesome, man. Thank you so much, brother. And everybody that's listening, we do this show every week. Monero Talk, we do Monero Topia every Saturday at 11am Eastern, and I'll leave it here. Thank you so much. Adios. Speaker 2 Hi, Monero Land. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go to MoneroTalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platforms. Monero Talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you. And supporting us is easier than ever by typing in MoneroTalk.crypto in your Monero.com or cake wallet send address field to send us a tip. Once again, thanks so much for listening and we look forward to being back next week. you