Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Parenting Paradox, with Dr Jenny Brown

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The Parenting Paradox, with Dr Jenny Brown · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Every Wednesday on the Happy Family podcast, I talk to
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  Speaker 1: interesting people doing interesting things about making families happier, and
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  Speaker 1: today is no different. Today I'm talking with doctor Jenny Brown,
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  Speaker 1: who's been a dedicated leader in child, couple and family
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  Speaker 1: mental health for over four decades, working across Australia, the UK,
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  Speaker 1: the USA. Her background is in family therapy and something
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  Speaker 1: known as Bown family systems theory. That's a whole lot
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  Speaker 1: of psycho stuff that we will get into and it'll
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  Speaker 1: make perfect sense in a couple of minutes. But her
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  Speaker 1: long term focus has been strengthening families, primarily by empowering
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  Speaker 1: parents to support their children's emotional and psychological well being.
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  Speaker 1: Jenny has a brand your book out called The Parenting Paradox.
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  Speaker 1: The Parenting Paradox loving our children by giving them space
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  Speaker 1: to grow. Now, if you are one of our US listeners,
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  Speaker 1: that's already out came out June eleven. If you're in Australia,
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  Speaker 1: it comes out in a few days July nineteen. And
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  Speaker 1: today we talk about what this parenting paradox is and
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  Speaker 1: how we're supposed to give our kids space to grow
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  Speaker 1: when everybody tells us that we're being negligent if we
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  Speaker 1: give them any space at all, because they have to
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  Speaker 1: be structured and supervised and on the carpet in the
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  Speaker 1: living room being watched over. I can't wait for the conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Please join me right after this break for a conversation
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  Speaker 1: with doctor Jenny Brown about the parenting paradox stay with us. Hello,
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  Speaker 1: and welcome to The Happy Family's podcast, where you get
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  Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's most
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  Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. Thanks for joining me today for a
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  Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Jenny Brown, who works on family mental
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  Speaker 1: health and has been doing that for more than forty years.
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to be too personal here, Jenny, but
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  Speaker 1: when you hear that forty years thing, do you kind
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  Speaker 1: of go you've had that happen.
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  Speaker 2: That's a long time.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on.
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  Speaker 2: It means I'm not in the thick of parenting anymore.
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  Speaker 2: I'm a grandparent now.
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  Speaker 1: Just so, how many kids and how many grandkids? Let's
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  Speaker 1: go through your parenting stats.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I've got two daughters who are now well into
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  Speaker 2: their adult years, and i have six grandchildren. Some of
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  Speaker 2: them live in the US and some of them live
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  Speaker 2: in the broadest Sydney are so jenny as a father,
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  Speaker 2: my attention as a dad of.
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  Speaker 1: Six daughters, I think I am qualified to say, I
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  Speaker 1: don't think you're trying very hard. You stopped it too,
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  Speaker 1: only too exactly exactly.
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  Speaker 2: My second certainly took a lot of my energy, my
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  Speaker 2: lovely second daughter. I've learned a lot along the way,
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  Speaker 2: and I have such empathy for the challenges parents' face.
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  Speaker 2: But two is just just right for me.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about this parenting paradox to name of
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  Speaker 1: the book, loving our children by giving them space to grow?
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  Speaker 1: What do you most want parents to understand about the
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  Speaker 1: intensivity of Is that a word, the intensivity of today's
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  Speaker 1: parenting culture.
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  Speaker 2: It's a good word. I like it justin I want
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  Speaker 2: them to understand that it isn't new, and it is
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  Speaker 2: one of the things I write about. How do we
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  Speaker 2: get here to parenting being so intense where parenting feels
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  Speaker 2: like high performance stakes rather than a relation relationship anymore.
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  Speaker 2: Just the sense that parents have to know so much
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  Speaker 2: and always be able to attune to their child and
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  Speaker 2: understand the latest stage of their development, all of their
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  Speaker 2: neuro development. It's overwhelming for parents, but it's been building
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  Speaker 2: for well over one hundred years. So I do write
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  Speaker 2: about that so parents can understand that the air we're
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  Speaker 2: breathing at the moment in modern parenting where parents are
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  Speaker 2: becoming overly reliant on expert advice. I love justin that
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  Speaker 2: you don't have that tone of expert advice in the
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast. It's much more about helping parents think
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  Speaker 2: for themselves, retrieve their own wisdom. That's what I'm wanting
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  Speaker 2: in this book.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, Jenny. Just a quick aside. In
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  Speaker 1: one of my more recent books, The Parenting Revolution, I
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  Speaker 1: trace the history of parenting advice over the last couple
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  Speaker 1: hundred years and as astonishing just how bad the pairing
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  Speaker 1: of avice was. And what's really ironic. I've just seen
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  Speaker 1: an advanced copy of a new book coming out from
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  Speaker 1: Richard Glover, the ABC Afternoons Drive presenter in Sydney, and
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  Speaker 1: the book is something I can't remember exactly the title,
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  Speaker 1: but it's like how to Stuff your Kids Up or
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  Speaker 1: something like that. And he's done a really deep dive,
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  Speaker 1: like I did a shallow surface level, here are the
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  Speaker 1: terrible bits of advice, but he's gone really deep and
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  Speaker 1: what you say is absolutely right. Like this, this fascination
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  Speaker 1: with intensification around parenting and structuring children's lives, it's been
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  Speaker 1: there for a long time. There's been a lot of judgment.
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  Speaker 1: There's been a lot of heavy duty push from the
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  Speaker 1: quote unquote experts. And that's why I always kind of
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  Speaker 1: I chafe a bit when people call me an expert,
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  Speaker 1: because yeah, I know a lot about parenting, but I
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  Speaker 1: don't ever want to be that, and I know you
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  Speaker 1: don't either, which is fact.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's ironic, isn't it that we're here talking about
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  Speaker 2: parenting but saying less is more To parents out there,
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  Speaker 2: I want to find a way to manage what's in
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  Speaker 2: their control, not feel they have to know every little
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  Speaker 2: detail about each of their children.
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  Speaker 1: I think there's value as well, though, in highlighting, like
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  Speaker 1: you've just said, less is more, and sometimes parents can
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  Speaker 1: hear that as encouragement to just step away, just to
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  Speaker 1: step back, and I'm always at pains to highlight. This
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  Speaker 1: isn't about saying, well, just just have some mild disinterest
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  Speaker 1: in your children's lives, but rather let them well, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you're subtitled loving our children by giving them space to grow.
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  Speaker 1: When you watch and sit with and work with parents.
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  Speaker 1: What do you think the biggest challenge is for them
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  Speaker 1: to actually give them space? Because I like that that
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  Speaker 1: insertification comes from a good place, right, We just want
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  Speaker 1: the best for a.
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  Speaker 2: Killing it does. It's not that parents don't love their kids,
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  Speaker 2: it's how to redirect that love in a way that
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  Speaker 2: doesn't inadvertently crowd a child's developmental breathing space. So what
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  Speaker 2: I'd want to say to parents in terms of the
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  Speaker 2: giving kids space to grow? The secret is, and I've
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  Speaker 2: learned this from Bowen family systems theory over the years,
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  Speaker 2: that the parent makes a project out of themselves, not
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  Speaker 2: their child. What can I manage about my reactions to
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  Speaker 2: the child so my reactions don't get in the way
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  Speaker 2: of my child. What is so hard though, for parents
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  Speaker 2: is that when they work at managing themselves with their children,
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  Speaker 2: their kids, particularly the ones they've gotten into a worry
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  Speaker 2: cycle with their kids, are in that dance as well,
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  Speaker 2: and they are inviting their parents to keep worrying about them,
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  Speaker 2: or if they're defiant, they're in they're provoking their parents
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  Speaker 2: to keep challenging them because they feel the endorphins being
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  Speaker 2: abble to stand up to their parents and defy them.
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  Speaker 2: So we I'm helping parents get out of these cycles
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  Speaker 2: and they can do it, and it's not as complicated
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  Speaker 2: as parents.
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  Speaker 1: I'll give you an example from my living room just
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  Speaker 1: about a week ago. I'm so embarrassed to admit this,
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  Speaker 1: but this is real family life. So also I should
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  Speaker 1: also highlight I love the way that you've said that
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  Speaker 1: the Balm family system theory very much says that you
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  Speaker 1: make a project out of yourself, not out of your child.
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  Speaker 1: I've always said that parenting is about parents. That's why
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  Speaker 1: it's called parenting. If it was about children, we would
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  Speaker 1: call it children. But we call it parenting.
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  Speaker 2: Because of our indeed agree.
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  Speaker 1: But aside from my terrible English, just there, you're talking
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  Speaker 1: about how we're trying to work on ourselves, but our
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  Speaker 1: children keep on inviting us into or pulling us into
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  Speaker 1: their emotional vortex and creating this conflict. So I had
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  Speaker 1: this interaction with my sixteen year old. There was some tension,
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  Speaker 1: there was a little bit of conflict around an issue,
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  Speaker 1: and as she walked away from me, she just she
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  Speaker 1: said something that was she muttered it under her breath,
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  Speaker 1: but it was a little bit disrespectful. There was just
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  Speaker 1: a little of a button push there and she said
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  Speaker 1: something I can't even remember the words, but Jenny, I
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  Speaker 1: stopped her. I said, why do you always have to
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  Speaker 1: have the last word? Why do you always have to
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  Speaker 1: have the last word? And as I said, it struck me.
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  Speaker 1: The irony was no, Actually, I'm the one that has
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  Speaker 1: to have the last word. That's why I've jumped in
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  Speaker 1: with the last word. And of course that set her
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  Speaker 1: off again. She said, I don't have to have the
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  Speaker 1: last word. You're always the one with the last word.
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  Speaker 1: That's why you just said what you said. And I said, well,
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  Speaker 1: you just said what you said, so you're trying to
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  Speaker 1: have the last word, but I get the last word
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  Speaker 1: because on it, and all of a sudden I having
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  Speaker 1: this It was just so ridiculous. We ended up having
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  Speaker 1: a to a chuckle about it.
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  Speaker 2: Actually, but yeah, great example justin we get caught all
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  Speaker 2: the time. Doesn't stop. But I love that you're talking
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  Speaker 2: about your daughter who did the button push? And can
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  Speaker 2: we just start to learn when our buttons get pushed,
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  Speaker 2: we have choices, we can do different things, which is great.
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  Speaker 1: There are buttons, hope. Yeah, Like if my button's being pushed,
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  Speaker 1: then I need to cover my buttons so they can't
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  Speaker 1: get pushed. After the break, I want to talk about
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  Speaker 1: what those choices are. You've just said we have choices,
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  Speaker 1: we can cover our buttons. We're going to have a
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  Speaker 1: chat about a couple of things that we can do
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  Speaker 1: to work on ourselves as a project, which means that
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  Speaker 1: we're going to model things better for our kids and
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  Speaker 1: hopefully break out of the challenging cycles that we can
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  Speaker 1: create in our homes. Stay with us. That's next on
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  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: We're back.
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  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast where you get real
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  Speaker 1: parenting solutions every day. Doctor Jenny Brown is the author
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  Speaker 1: of The Parenting Paradox, Loving our Children by giving them
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: a space to grow. It's out now if you're a
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: US listener, if you're in Australia, only a couple of
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: days July nineteen and you can get hold of The
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Pairing Paradox jump online you can pre order it. Jenny,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about how we're working ourselves as a project.
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  Speaker 1: That's what the family system theory is that you use
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  Speaker 1: this Bowen theory and this idea of buttons, kids pushing
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  Speaker 1: buttons getting sucked into their vortex and how do we
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  Speaker 1: work on ourselves? You said, there are a couple of
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  Speaker 1: things that we can really do to cover up or
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  Speaker 1: protect those buttons so they don't get pushed quite so easily.
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  Speaker 1: If I'm a parent listening to this podcast, I'm thinking, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: everything's been really abstract so far. Give give me a
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  Speaker 1: couple of really concrete things that I can do. What
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  Speaker 1: would you have a struggling parent too, with kids that
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  Speaker 1: push those buttons?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, well, look at the thing you're in control of.
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  Speaker 2: Here's what you've got choice over. You've got choice over
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  Speaker 2: your own behavior, over your tone of voice, over when
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  Speaker 2: you speak, when you don't speak. It's all in our control.
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  Speaker 2: We cannot change the mood, mind, and behavior of our children.
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  Speaker 2: But the really good news is if we just change
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  Speaker 2: our tone, dull the intensity down, our children have more
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  Speaker 2: breathing space to kick themselves up and function and manage better.
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  Speaker 2: This is not a techniquey approach about getting our children
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  Speaker 2: to do what we want them to do. It's different.
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  Speaker 2: We change this family system by changing ourselves, and it
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  Speaker 2: just makes for that contagious calm we can't become all
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  Speaker 2: the time. That's not realistic, and we don't want to
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  Speaker 2: turn it down. Yeah, yeah, we don't want to be
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  Speaker 2: zombie like parents. We want to be real and authentic.
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  Speaker 2: And with that, when we lose our cool and I've
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  Speaker 2: heard you say this justin we have the choice to
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  Speaker 2: acknowledge that to our kids and apologize. You know, I
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  Speaker 2: feel strongly about that issue, but I don't like the
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  Speaker 2: way I shouted at you. Then that's not how I
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  Speaker 2: want to be as a parent. So let's reset. We
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  Speaker 2: can talk about it when I can get my calm together.
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  Speaker 2: They're the things in a parent's control. And you talked
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  Speaker 2: about your example with your daughter. I hear parents all
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  Speaker 2: the time say when I stopped over explaining myself, I've
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  Speaker 2: said it once. I don't need to repeat it. That's
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  Speaker 2: a choice of parents can make. And it's amazing the
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  Speaker 2: difference in not fueling one of those vortexes of constant debate, conflict,
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  Speaker 2: or so many parents are getting caught in the worrying
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  Speaker 2: and rescuing of their children. And this is this whole
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  Speaker 2: book and approach is inviting parents into a mindset shift.
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  Speaker 2: For many parents, so we do not need to change
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  Speaker 2: our children. But when we are just ourselves, our children
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  Speaker 2: do start to grow. And that's a beautiful thing.
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  Speaker 1: You've just highlighted worry. One of the conversations that I
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  Speaker 1: have on repeat with parents is about their worries about
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  Speaker 1: their children fulilling their potential, about their children overcoming their
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  Speaker 1: various challenges, whether it's social or cognitive, or academic or whatever.
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  Speaker 1: It might be my last question for you, what are
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  Speaker 1: the practical steps that you would point parents to to
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  Speaker 1: help them to break out of worry cycles, whether the
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  Speaker 1: kids are little or big, regardless of the age or stage,
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  Speaker 1: how can parents break out of their worry cycles?
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, look at your worry cycle. Step
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  Speaker 2: back when you've got some thinking space, and I've got
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  Speaker 2: a pattern you can follow in the book, map it out.
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  Speaker 2: When do I get triggered? How do I respond? How
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  Speaker 2: does my child? How do I see that when I worry,
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  Speaker 2: my child's helplessness increases, their neediness or their agitation increases.
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  Speaker 2: How can I do something different to get out of
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  Speaker 2: that worry cycle? Parents do rather than a quick fixed technique,
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  Speaker 2: learn to observe your cycle. And there's so much value
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  Speaker 2: in that awareness, and that's where our choices open up.
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  Speaker 2: And just I don't want parents to be on a
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  Speaker 2: guilt trip. None of us need that, but to recognize
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  Speaker 2: that when a child triggers our worry, our response to
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  Speaker 2: them over monitoring them, over helping them, it becomes part
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  Speaker 2: of the cycle because the child react to being monitored anxiously,
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  Speaker 2: which becomes our confirmation bias. Oh look I should be worried.
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  Speaker 2: Look how they're responding. And then we increase our helping
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  Speaker 2: efforts and then we go looking for experts to add
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  Speaker 2: to fixing the child. And without meaning to no parent
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  Speaker 2: means this. But we can be part of a child
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  Speaker 2: shrinking back in their capability, even if they have genuine
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  Speaker 2: biological difficulties or genetic issues. We don't want to be
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  Speaker 2: part of them shrinking back, and we can be a
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  Speaker 2: part of less worry, more presence.
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  Speaker 1: Great way to finish. Doctor Jenny Brown has created the
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  Speaker 1: parent Hope Project. It's a fabulous suite of resources designed
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  Speaker 1: to restore a parental agency and build lasting confidence and
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: navigating Chidren's challenges, and is the author of the brand
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  Speaker 1: new book The Parenting Paradox. Loving our children by giving
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  Speaker 1: them space to grow might take our message, Jenny, if
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  Speaker 1: I can say some of your words back to you,
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  Speaker 1: work on me and my response. Don't try to change
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  Speaker 1: my child. Such a great message. Yeah yeah, good luck
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  Speaker 1: with the book. I hope it goes extremely well. Absolutely,
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  Speaker 1: it's a message that parents need. And thanks for joining
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  Speaker 1: me on the podcast today.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me, Justin.
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  Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roland for
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammond's provides admin and other support. Check
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the show notes for details about the parenting paradox and
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: if you look for other resources to support your family,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: will link to Jenny's website as well as Happy families
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  Speaker 1: dot com dot au.