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VERDICT WATCH: Madame Perv Ghislaine Maxwell Awaits Jury · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are in a vertice
0:17
Speaker 1: watch in the case of this state versus socialite Gillaine Maxwell.
0:22
Speaker 1: She's facing about seventy years behind bars for what sex
0:27
Speaker 1: trafficking little girls. That's right. She comes over the pond,
0:33
Speaker 1: hooks up with a multi millionaire Jeffrey Epstein, and starts
0:37
Speaker 1: procuring young girls for him under the guise of massages,
0:43
Speaker 1: raping and other sex attacks on the girls. Right now,
0:48
Speaker 1: this case is in the hands of a jury. First
0:51
Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at CNBC.
0:54
Speaker 1: Maxwell was given about an hour to decide if she
0:57
Speaker 1: wanted to take the stand in her own defense. She've
0:59
Speaker 1: been tally stood up and told the judge, your honor.
1:02
Speaker 1: The government has not proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt,
1:05
Speaker 1: and so there is no reason for me to testify.
1:08
Speaker 1: The defense wrapped up its portion of the case this
1:11
Speaker 1: afternoon after calling witnesses over the last two days. Today,
1:14
Speaker 1: one of those witnesses included one of Jeffrey Epstein's former
1:17
Speaker 1: girlfriends Ava Dubin, who remained a long lifetime friend. She
1:22
Speaker 1: testified she never saw Epstein engage in inappropriate conduct with
1:25
Speaker 1: a minor. The defense has repeatedly called into question the
1:29
Speaker 1: memories of the four alleged victims in this case, and
1:32
Speaker 1: yesterday they called a memory expert to the stand. She
1:35
Speaker 1: testified that memories can be fragile and that they can
1:39
Speaker 1: be manipulated. In cross examination, the prosecution pointed out that
1:43
Speaker 1: out of the one hundred and fifty criminal cases that
1:46
Speaker 1: this expert has testified, all but one have been for
1:49
Speaker 1: the side of the defense. Other witnesses included former employees
1:52
Speaker 1: who say Maxwell was demanding but well respected and never
1:56
Speaker 1: saw any inappropriate contact between her and any miners. That's
2:00
Speaker 1: interesting because the former butler of Epstein's Palm Beach mansion
2:05
Speaker 1: said he saw many, many, many young girls there, often
2:10
Speaker 1: topless at the pool, and that several of them were
2:15
Speaker 1: under age. That's in direct contradiction to what the defense
2:19
Speaker 1: is bringing on. And you know, I gotta go before
2:22
Speaker 1: I even introduced the guests straight out to longtime friend
2:24
Speaker 1: and colleague Wendy Murphy, former child abuse sex crimes prosecutor,
2:30
Speaker 1: professor regarding sex violence law at New England Law in Boston.
2:34
Speaker 1: You know, Wendy, when they the defense try to say that, well,
2:38
Speaker 1: none of his friends saw any appropriate activity, Well what
2:42
Speaker 1: do you think he's gonna rape a young girl on
2:46
Speaker 1: the living room table, at the coffee table and the dad.
2:49
Speaker 1: Of course, nobody sees it. That's why it is so insidious,
2:52
Speaker 1: is because it happens behind closed doors. Of course they
2:55
Speaker 1: don't see it. Every child master I've ever known, all
2:58
Speaker 1: of his friends are like, why no, yeah, it does happen.
3:03
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And what a common and ineffective defense tactic
3:08
Speaker 1: to say, well, this person didn't see anything, and this
3:11
Speaker 1: person didn't see anything. If I'm a juror, and this
3:14
Speaker 1: is how my jury jury felt when that kind of
3:17
Speaker 1: argument was made, they literally would say to themselves, well,
3:22
Speaker 1: what difference does it make that that person didn't see anything?
3:25
Speaker 1: That nobody alleged that that person did see something? So
3:29
Speaker 1: who cares that they that they're claiming they didn't. Yeah,
3:32
Speaker 1: not just it's not just that. Of course the crime
3:35
Speaker 1: happens in secret because the guy's trying to cover up
3:38
Speaker 1: what he's doing. Of course it's happening. And yeah, we're
3:41
Speaker 1: not talking about a smash and grab on rodeo drive
3:44
Speaker 1: as they call it. We're talking about child molestation, and
3:47
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, a very long, long pattern
3:51
Speaker 1: of child molestation by billionaire Jeffrey Epstein and his hinge
3:55
Speaker 1: person perv Yelaye Maxwell. Take a listen to our cut
3:59
Speaker 1: a T and this is Martha Konor was Sky. Prosecution
4:03
Speaker 1: lawyer Alison Moe said Maxwell ran the same playbook again
4:07
Speaker 1: and again. She groomed them. She caused deep and lasting
4:11
Speaker 1: harm to young girls. It's time to hold her accountable.
4:15
Speaker 1: Annie Farmer's experience at Epstein's New Mexico ranch, prosecutors said,
4:19
Speaker 1: was typical of his and Glenn Maxwell's abusing. This picture
4:23
Speaker 1: of her at her high school prom was taken the
4:25
Speaker 1: same month as that trip, when she says Maxwell gave
4:28
Speaker 1: her a sexual massage. Her teenage diaries, in which she
4:32
Speaker 1: writes about being weirded out by Epstein's behavior, evidence says
4:36
Speaker 1: the government of Classic grooming Techniques, to which Maxwell was
4:40
Speaker 1: an accomplice. Laura Meninger delivered the rebuttal for the defense.
4:44
Speaker 1: She said, these accusers had stories to tell about Jeffrey Epstein,
4:48
Speaker 1: and decades later they inserted Glenn Maxwell. They each filed
4:52
Speaker 1: a civil suit, and they took home millions, but their
4:55
Speaker 1: stories have changed dramatically over time. The defences are doing
5:00
Speaker 1: that the now adult, then child molestation victims have changed
5:05
Speaker 1: your story. The only thing that's changed is that now
5:08
Speaker 1: they're being questioned about Gillaine Maxwell very often. When they
5:13
Speaker 1: were questioned at the time, the questioners were asking about
5:17
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. Who thought to ask then about Gillaine Maxwell.
5:23
Speaker 1: With me an all start panel to break it down
5:25
Speaker 1: and put it back together again again. We are in
5:28
Speaker 1: a verdict watch here on Crime Stories with me. You
5:32
Speaker 1: just heard her longtime friend and colleague. We're now Attorney
5:36
Speaker 1: Wendy Murphy, doctor Teresa gill highly respected professor's psychology, psychotherapist
5:43
Speaker 1: and author of Women Who Were Sex Abused as Children? Wow,
5:48
Speaker 1: is that not a point today? Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
5:53
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on
5:56
Speaker 1: Amazon and star off another new hit series, Body Bags,
6:00
Speaker 1: with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeartRadio, but first to Crime
6:04
Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Jackie Howard. Jackie, thank you
6:10
Speaker 1: for being with us across all the headlines. It says,
6:13
Speaker 1: if it's the harbinger of doom, a death knell of
6:16
Speaker 1: sorts for the state's case. I'm reading day three deliberations.
6:20
Speaker 1: No verdict that is entirely untrue. Okay. Number one, the
6:25
Speaker 1: first day of deliberations would have been Monday, assuming today
6:30
Speaker 1: is Wednesday, am I okay, good, all right, it's Christmas time.
6:34
Speaker 1: Santa's busy. Day one deliberations was Monday, Jackie Howard. The
6:39
Speaker 1: jury heard closing arguments all day. Then they heard instructions
6:43
Speaker 1: from the judge reading them verbatim, which is required under
6:49
Speaker 1: case law. You can't just addlib the law to the jury.
6:52
Speaker 1: You gotta read it in the black and white. They
6:54
Speaker 1: heard jury instructions to the jury about the law which
6:58
Speaker 1: they are to apply to the of this case. Then
7:02
Speaker 1: by the time they got the case to start deliberations,
7:05
Speaker 1: it was almost the end of the day, Jackie. They
7:07
Speaker 1: went home. So Tuesday, yesterday was really their first full
7:12
Speaker 1: day of deliberations. They left around five pm and they're
7:17
Speaker 1: coming back for day three technically of deliberations today Wednesday.
7:21
Speaker 1: Is that correct, Jackie? That is correct, Nancy. The Drew
7:24
Speaker 1: will begin deliberating again today, and as you said, their
7:27
Speaker 1: first full day looking at this case. They asked the
7:31
Speaker 1: judge to review testimony from the women who had accused
7:34
Speaker 1: Galne Maxwell of setting them up for sexual encounters with
7:38
Speaker 1: financier Jeffrey Epstein. Now, remember there are four victims that
7:41
Speaker 1: have testified in this case. Only one of those victims
7:45
Speaker 1: came out under her real name, Annie Farmer. And all
7:49
Speaker 1: of these women across, all of these women rather across
7:52
Speaker 1: their testimony, have accused Glene Maxwell of setting them up
7:56
Speaker 1: for sexual abuse. You know, that's really interesting the way
7:59
Speaker 1: you put that, Jackie Harrod, And you're absolutely correct. They're
8:02
Speaker 1: saying that she Gaillie Maxwell quote set them up for
8:06
Speaker 1: sex abuse. Now I like the way you said that, Jackie,
8:10
Speaker 1: because that is common vernacular for what the state is
8:15
Speaker 1: alleging that she procure them. But what the way you
8:21
Speaker 1: said it, I hope the prosecutor said it, just like
8:23
Speaker 1: that Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor, Teresa gil
8:42
Speaker 1: doctor to procure and to groom a young girl. What
8:46
Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, what they would do is they
8:50
Speaker 1: would send Gaily Maxwell out to park, they would send
8:54
Speaker 1: her to school playgrounds, and any perpetrator will tell you
8:58
Speaker 1: within fifteen sets and they'll pick their victim. And they
9:02
Speaker 1: picked their victim who looks isolated, who looks alone, who
9:06
Speaker 1: looks like they don't have a group of friends, and
9:09
Speaker 1: what she did is she talked with them. She was kind,
9:14
Speaker 1: she was listened well to them, She had a sense
9:18
Speaker 1: of humor. She brought them to the movies. She asked
9:21
Speaker 1: them about their lives. She asked these women, which mostly
9:25
Speaker 1: were poor, some of them have histories of child sexual abuse,
9:30
Speaker 1: and she has some water your dreams. And then she
9:33
Speaker 1: promised them that she could help fulfill their dreams. In fact,
9:37
Speaker 1: during the sexual exploitations, part of the discussions as Epstein
9:43
Speaker 1: was abusing them was talking about what their dreams were
9:47
Speaker 1: and how he could make sure that he got those
9:50
Speaker 1: for them. So she befriended them. The one named Jane,
9:55
Speaker 1: she actually said, unlike your older sister. So here we
9:59
Speaker 1: have kids that feel isolated in the world. They feel alone,
10:03
Speaker 1: and she presents herself as somebody who's like the oldest
10:07
Speaker 1: sister that can relate to them in the present and
10:11
Speaker 1: offer them a much better future than they would have
10:15
Speaker 1: if they didn't have her in their life. And so
10:18
Speaker 1: she aligned with them, and then she groomed them and
10:22
Speaker 1: presented them to Jeffrey Epstein to be sexually appeased. Doctor
10:26
Speaker 1: Terisa gil joining me, you know the way you said
10:28
Speaker 1: that almost made me start crying. Just thinking of these
10:32
Speaker 1: young girls. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. We've
10:37
Speaker 1: seen so many child molestation and rape cases and very
10:42
Speaker 1: often we see the pattern the victim. As doctor Gill
10:47
Speaker 1: pointed out, how many seconds you said, fifteen seconds. And
10:51
Speaker 1: there is evidence that Gilly Maxwell would actually troll playgrounds
10:56
Speaker 1: in New York. And in New York the playgrounds are
11:00
Speaker 1: different than they are in many other places in the country.
11:03
Speaker 1: You can be riding along four lanes of traffic one way,
11:08
Speaker 1: the streets are one way there, and right there, across
11:11
Speaker 1: twenty feet a sidewalk would be a chain link fence.
11:15
Speaker 1: Sometimes they paint the fence green, but they're right on
11:20
Speaker 1: the other side of the chain link fence. On the
11:22
Speaker 1: other side of the sidewalk is a playground of sorts.
11:24
Speaker 1: It's usually asphalt like. There'll be asphalt with a basketball
11:29
Speaker 1: goal or with park benches or a place for them
11:33
Speaker 1: to kick a ball. You can see the children from
11:37
Speaker 1: the street as you drive by, and there is evidence
11:40
Speaker 1: that Galaine Maxwell will be driving by in a big
11:43
Speaker 1: black limo order the driver to stop and get out
11:47
Speaker 1: and go start talking to a girl she spotted, As
11:50
Speaker 1: doctor Gill said in fifteen seconds they've identified their victim.
11:54
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, My question to you is, over and
11:57
Speaker 1: over we see the same pattern that the children that
12:00
Speaker 1: are selected to be child rape victims sha molestation victims
12:06
Speaker 1: are the most let me say, fragile, the most vulnerable.
12:11
Speaker 1: They're from a single parent home. The mom is working
12:14
Speaker 1: all day. The mom wants what's best for her child,
12:17
Speaker 1: but doesn't get home till five or six or later
12:19
Speaker 1: at night from work, doesn't know exactly what the child
12:23
Speaker 1: is doing in the afternoons, and relies on the child
12:26
Speaker 1: to tell her. Why is that We see it over
12:29
Speaker 1: and over, Joe Scott, And that's the case here. Yeah,
12:32
Speaker 1: it is Nancy. And you know, one of the striking
12:34
Speaker 1: things about this we keep talking about grooming in this sense, uh,
12:39
Speaker 1: you know, when we think about this from the perspective
12:42
Speaker 1: of violent street crime cases that you and I have
12:45
Speaker 1: talked about and that we've worked, actually, when it involves
12:49
Speaker 1: sexual assaults, we think about somebody hiding in a dark
12:52
Speaker 1: alley and reaching out to somebody and grabbing them and
12:55
Speaker 1: then attacking them. The sexual assault that's you know, and
12:59
Speaker 1: I guess in scientific parlance, is in an acute phase
13:02
Speaker 1: where it's very violent and it's right there, and there's
13:04
Speaker 1: evidence left behind with the grooming, you identify the weakest
13:09
Speaker 1: among the group, those people that are very violent. And
13:12
Speaker 1: you know, the thing about it is, from a forensic standpoint,
13:14
Speaker 1: there's there's no evidence, really physical evidence, you know what
13:17
Speaker 1: I'm saying exactly Hair all these things that we examine.
13:23
Speaker 1: So you've got this long timeline. And that's the thing
13:27
Speaker 1: I'm really worried about here, h and Nancy with this,
13:31
Speaker 1: with this jury, you know, because people want to see
13:33
Speaker 1: hard evidence in criminal cases, and the fact is is
13:37
Speaker 1: that you're not going to have these physical presentations. You're
13:40
Speaker 1: not going to have these scientific outcomes that I commonly
13:43
Speaker 1: look for in these cases. So this is reliant upon this,
13:48
Speaker 1: this this timeline and these stories that are being put forward,
13:52
Speaker 1: this narrative of grooming and how all this takes place. Guys,
13:56
Speaker 1: we are talking about the Gallaine Maxwell federal trial going
14:01
Speaker 1: down right now. We are in a verdict watch in
14:06
Speaker 1: the case of the State versus Gilaine Maxwell, a millionaire
14:10
Speaker 1: in her own right, flies across the ocean from Great Britain,
14:15
Speaker 1: where she is educated at the very best schools, rubs
14:18
Speaker 1: elbows with the paushous, most wealthy and educated people in Britain.
14:24
Speaker 1: She comes here after her father's death and latches on
14:28
Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein. What did he see in her? Not
14:32
Speaker 1: only is she very attractive, but with her social graces,
14:36
Speaker 1: her education and her knowledge, her connections to rich and
14:41
Speaker 1: powerful people, she was his ticket to let's just say respectability.
14:48
Speaker 1: But behind that very thin veneer is a woman, according
14:53
Speaker 1: to prosecutors, that procured, got trolled for young girls for
14:58
Speaker 1: Epstein to abuse. Right now, we're in a verdict watch.
15:04
Speaker 1: We are waiting as the jury deliberates this case. Will
15:09
Speaker 1: they fall for the defense tactic that these young girls
15:13
Speaker 1: now grown women, are motivated by money or they quote
15:18
Speaker 1: miss remembered what happened to them? I mean, straight to you.
15:22
Speaker 1: Wendy Murphy, former high profile prosecutor now professor Wendy second verse,
15:29
Speaker 1: same as the first. Please they're claiming, what do all
15:32
Speaker 1: crime victims have to be nuns and priests and virgins?
15:35
Speaker 1: Because if that's true, then we're all in trouble. I
15:39
Speaker 1: think I can speak for everybody here that we're all
15:41
Speaker 1: in trouble if you have to be a nun, a priest,
15:43
Speaker 1: or a virgin Before you're deemed worthy of being a
15:47
Speaker 1: victim in our jurisprudence system, Wendy Murphy Badly. There is
15:53
Speaker 1: there's a culture in these kinds of cases where some
15:56
Speaker 1: jurors might be willing to discredit someone based on how
16:01
Speaker 1: they feel about their lifestyle of their responsibility. I mean,
16:04
Speaker 1: the good news in this case is that the three
16:06
Speaker 1: primary victims who were under age were too young to consent,
16:11
Speaker 1: so we didn't, thankfully, blissfully, we didn't have to hear
16:15
Speaker 1: from the defense about how they did it willingly, and
16:18
Speaker 1: they were responsible for what happened to them because they
16:21
Speaker 1: were children. Let's just talk about it the way that
16:23
Speaker 1: their children. They're not just miners. The fourteen years old
16:26
Speaker 1: as a child. The fourth victim was over the age
16:29
Speaker 1: of consent. She's not involved in any of the direct charges,
16:33
Speaker 1: but she was a corroborative and supportive witness. And the
16:35
Speaker 1: fact is they did have some weaknesses in their testimony.
16:40
Speaker 1: But I never had a case where my witness didn't
16:43
Speaker 1: have some kind of weakness because the witness who always
16:46
Speaker 1: tells the same story time after time is the witness
16:51
Speaker 1: I'm worried about that. Their testimony sounds pat and too perfect.
16:55
Speaker 1: Real witnesses, real victims, sincere honest people don't always get
17:01
Speaker 1: the details perfect. And I think the jurism to understand
17:04
Speaker 1: that here plus come on, all four of them had
17:07
Speaker 1: false memories. I mean, that's the sense witnesses are true.
17:11
Speaker 1: You know they're saying, Wendy Murphy, they're saying miss remembered.
17:15
Speaker 1: I was questioning earlier today on air, is misremembered? Pearl
17:19
Speaker 1: Quelot that up is misremembered? Actually a word? My husband
17:23
Speaker 1: says no. But they're saying that the girl that the
17:26
Speaker 1: ladies now misremembered. All four of them, as you point out,
17:31
Speaker 1: and were motivated by money because some of them tapped
17:34
Speaker 1: into the victims fund. That was great. You know you're
17:39
Speaker 1: in trouble when you have to create a multimillion dollar
17:42
Speaker 1: fund for all the victims you've molested. Crime stories with
17:59
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace take a lisson to the throne. Victim on
18:04
Speaker 1: the stand, This is Erica A two. This is Martha
18:08
Speaker 1: kelner Sky. The further accuser on the stand was a
18:12
Speaker 1: woman testifying under only her first name, Carolyn White. Tears
18:17
Speaker 1: from her face as she told the court that Jeffrey
18:19
Speaker 1: Epstein started abusing her aged fourteen, beginning with massagers at
18:24
Speaker 1: his Palm Beach mansion. She also said missus Maxwell had
18:28
Speaker 1: inspected her naked body. Caroline said she felt my boobs, buttocks,
18:33
Speaker 1: and hips and said, you have a great body for
18:36
Speaker 1: mister Epstein and his friend. Caroline told the court she
18:41
Speaker 1: gave Epstein over one hundred massagers, all of which would
18:45
Speaker 1: end in sexual contact. She also claimed she told missus
18:48
Speaker 1: Maxwell about her dysfunctional family life. I told her my
18:53
Speaker 1: mum was an alcoholic, said Caroline. I remember telling her
18:56
Speaker 1: my grandfather molested and raped me from the age of four.
19:00
Speaker 1: And to doctor Teresa gil professors psychology and author of
19:05
Speaker 1: Women who Were Sex Abused as Children, Mothering Resilience and
19:09
Speaker 1: Protecting the next generation. To doctor gil this young girl
19:15
Speaker 1: so vulnerable, her mom an alcoholic single parent home and
19:24
Speaker 1: the grandfather raping her and molesting her sins age four,
19:28
Speaker 1: and she confides that to Epstein. Yet he goes ahead
19:33
Speaker 1: and molests her with the help of Guillaine Maxwell. I
19:37
Speaker 1: mean they both got a burn in hell. There's really
19:41
Speaker 1: no other alternative, guil Well. The interesting thing is when
19:44
Speaker 1: the victim told Gilayne about her history, she said that
19:48
Speaker 1: she smiled the Cheshiquet smile, meaning that she knew that
19:53
Speaker 1: that was a safe person to bring under a wing
19:58
Speaker 1: and to groom and to into Epstein. And she also
20:02
Speaker 1: said that for Epstein, the more uncomfortable and the more
20:06
Speaker 1: damage he saw in you, the more that he enjoyed it.
20:10
Speaker 1: So these were predators that had no empathy and that
20:15
Speaker 1: had no conscience, and it took advantage of these girls.
20:20
Speaker 1: And from what I know of working with women who
20:23
Speaker 1: have been sexually abused as children, that it impacts them
20:27
Speaker 1: for all their life. And even my book is about
20:30
Speaker 1: it's not just their life. It impacts It impacts how
20:33
Speaker 1: they take care of their own children, and it interferes
20:37
Speaker 1: with the next generation. So they've done a lot of damage.
20:41
Speaker 1: And my hope is at the court and the jury
20:43
Speaker 1: sees this and she's able to get what she deserves
20:48
Speaker 1: in terms of responsibility for what she's done, you know.
20:52
Speaker 1: To Jackie Hammer, joining US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Jackie,
20:58
Speaker 1: you stated that the jury had questions. They came out
21:03
Speaker 1: with questions on three different occasions, and I made copious
21:07
Speaker 1: notes regarding that. What was it about? Ten am, Bear
21:12
Speaker 1: with me, jack I'm digging through my notes okay. At
21:15
Speaker 1: first around ten am yesterday Tuesday, they asked for the
21:20
Speaker 1: transcript regarding any farmer Carolyn and Jane okay. That was
21:31
Speaker 1: at about ten Around three pm, they wanted the interview
21:36
Speaker 1: notes the FBI two thousand and seven interview notes with
21:39
Speaker 1: victim Carolyn and at four thirty the jury asked if
21:45
Speaker 1: they could consider the any farmer testimony. Hold on Jackie
21:52
Speaker 1: to you, Wendy Murphy. They cannot consider any farmer for
21:59
Speaker 1: sex and use because I think she aged out. But
22:04
Speaker 1: the judge told them, Judge Alison Nathan, that they could
22:08
Speaker 1: consider her testimony as far as having girls travel to
22:15
Speaker 1: different locations such as Palm Beach, New York, New Mexico.
22:23
Speaker 1: And a judge said, yes, you can't consider her testimony
22:27
Speaker 1: as it relates to conspiracy. Explain that in a nutshell. Yeah,
22:31
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the most important witnesses in
22:35
Speaker 1: the sense that she's not part of the charges per se,
22:40
Speaker 1: but she is a corroboration witness. She's someone who, if
22:45
Speaker 1: the jury believes her, her testimony can be used to
22:48
Speaker 1: support and corroborate the testimony of the victims who were
22:52
Speaker 1: underage and are part of the three primary charges. So
22:55
Speaker 1: there are three primary charges involving the three primary victims,
22:58
Speaker 1: and then there are three conspiracy is related to those
23:01
Speaker 1: primary charges. That's where we get the six charges from.
23:04
Speaker 1: But we have four victims, and that's because this fourth victim,
23:09
Speaker 1: although she's not part of the primary charges, is a
23:13
Speaker 1: very important witness who experienced the same kind of behavior
23:17
Speaker 1: and everything she has to testify about. Everything she did
23:20
Speaker 1: testify about is consistent with the pattern of the conspiracy,
23:24
Speaker 1: the pattern of the enticement and the trafficking and the
23:27
Speaker 1: transporting of underage girl. She was a witness, she was
23:32
Speaker 1: also a victim, and so with her testimony is very important.
23:36
Speaker 1: And you know, it's to me the idea that the
23:40
Speaker 1: jury is reviewing the victims testimonies. I know some people said, oh,
23:44
Speaker 1: that's good for the defense. I don't agree with that
23:46
Speaker 1: at all. I think one of the reasons juries look
23:50
Speaker 1: at testimony again and again is because they're debating whether
23:54
Speaker 1: one of them said something and someone says, no, I
23:57
Speaker 1: didn't hear that, So they're they're just discussing what they hall.
24:00
Speaker 1: Testimony can be lengthy and complicated, that doesn't mean they
24:03
Speaker 1: have any doubts about what they heard and you know,
24:06
Speaker 1: for me, the money issue is the big one, the
24:08
Speaker 1: big Oh they all got millions of dollars. Yeah, but
24:12
Speaker 1: they got the millions of dollars long before the investigation
24:15
Speaker 1: of Maxwell. So that has nothing to do with them
24:18
Speaker 1: wanting to lie. They're not going to back retroactively not
24:22
Speaker 1: get the money or get extra money. That's that's a
24:24
Speaker 1: done deal. And you know, for a defense to characterize
24:28
Speaker 1: delay Maxwell as like, uh, you know, Alice on the
24:31
Speaker 1: Brady but she was just managing the houses that he owned,
24:35
Speaker 1: is so preposterous that I think that turns the jury off.
24:39
Speaker 1: There's no innocent explanation for her role. She got paid
24:42
Speaker 1: thirty million dollars to manage a couple of houses. No,
24:47
Speaker 1: you don't get thirty million dollars to manage a couple
24:49
Speaker 1: of houses. You get thirty million dollars to be a pimp,
24:52
Speaker 1: to be a trafficker, to be a conspirator with Epstein
24:55
Speaker 1: in this massive scheme to abuse and severe really destroy
25:00
Speaker 1: the lives of many, many, many girls, not just these
25:03
Speaker 1: three many. You know, Wendy, I think you're jump in
25:06
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what I was going to say is and
25:08
Speaker 1: jump off this. I think Wendy's right. I mean it's
25:13
Speaker 1: like reading the tea leaves. Okay, have any of you
25:15
Speaker 1: seen Harry Potter, because I've seen it a million times.
25:18
Speaker 1: Remember there was the I alwish she could remember her name,
25:22
Speaker 1: the professor that you would she could read the future
25:26
Speaker 1: and should show people a cup of tea leaves, and
25:29
Speaker 1: they were supposed to figure out what it meant. That
25:32
Speaker 1: is what it means. That's what it's like to guess
25:35
Speaker 1: at what the jury's really doing based on their questions.
25:39
Speaker 1: But I do agree with Wendy the fact that they
25:42
Speaker 1: asked to have a victim's testimony read back, not just one,
25:45
Speaker 1: but several of the victims testimony. It could be something
25:48
Speaker 1: as simple as well, I think she said this, and
25:50
Speaker 1: the other one goes, no, I don't remember that. Well,
25:52
Speaker 1: let's hear the t After about an hour discussing it,
25:55
Speaker 1: they go, okay, let's have a read back of the transcript.
25:57
Speaker 1: I think that's most likely what happened. I think that
26:00
Speaker 1: it is not helpful for the state that they wanted
26:04
Speaker 1: to hear the FBI interview of one of the girls,
26:07
Speaker 1: where she did not mention Gawaine Maxwell at the time.
26:10
Speaker 1: But I think it's very helpful that they come out
26:13
Speaker 1: and say, hey, can we consider this victim even though
26:17
Speaker 1: we're not considering guilt or innocence? Can she be used
26:21
Speaker 1: to show a conspiracy? And the judge says, yes, she can.
26:25
Speaker 1: I think that's a very positive sign for the state.
26:28
Speaker 1: Jump in Joe Scott. Yeah. To Wendy's point, one of
26:31
Speaker 1: the things, you know, how I talked about the absence
26:33
Speaker 1: of physical evidence like we normally have from a forensic standpoint,
26:37
Speaker 1: but you got to break that down, Joe Scott when
26:38
Speaker 1: you said we're not going to have you know, we're
26:41
Speaker 1: not going to have biological evidence like hair and fibers
26:44
Speaker 1: and you know, semen in DNA. But in this case,
26:48
Speaker 1: one of the things that's very that's very striking is
26:51
Speaker 1: the fact that we're trying to establish are they the
26:54
Speaker 1: prosecution is trying to establish this timeline. And when you
26:58
Speaker 1: begin to think about, let's pull this one little piece
27:00
Speaker 1: of evidence out here, when you begin to think about
27:03
Speaker 1: does a fourteen year old have the ability to book
27:08
Speaker 1: a flight to go to an exotic location. I don't
27:10
Speaker 1: know about you, but I've never been to a private
27:13
Speaker 1: island in the Caribbean as a fourteen year old. I
27:15
Speaker 1: never booked a flight to go out to New Mexico
27:18
Speaker 1: to the Zoro Ranch. As much as I would have
27:21
Speaker 1: liked to have gone to a place like that in
27:23
Speaker 1: my fantasies, you know, as a cowboy, I couldn't do that. So,
27:27
Speaker 1: you know, when you begin to talk about Maxwell's involvement,
27:31
Speaker 1: she's like she's controlling the purse stream, she's controlling the booking,
27:37
Speaker 1: She's controlling the logistics of everything, and that is key here.
27:42
Speaker 1: You know, the term pimp is very accurate with her
27:45
Speaker 1: because she's controlling all of the timetables, the placement of individuals,
27:49
Speaker 1: and not to mention all of the psychological underlying issues
27:53
Speaker 1: here where she's identifying people and manipulating them and making
27:56
Speaker 1: them feel safe in this very very horrific environment. Crime
28:13
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, doctor Guil, Doctor Teresa Guil,
28:20
Speaker 1: professor of psychology and author, said something at the very
28:24
Speaker 1: beginning of our program about asking the girls their dreams.
28:31
Speaker 1: I don't mean, what did your dream about last night?
28:34
Speaker 1: Take a listen to ark at a four our friends
28:37
Speaker 1: at Sky News they called Annie Farmer. She was the
28:42
Speaker 1: fourth and final accuser to testify in this trial and
28:46
Speaker 1: the only one to waive her anonymity. Miss Farmer said
28:50
Speaker 1: she took a trip to Epstein's New Mexico ranch, hoping
28:53
Speaker 1: he might be able to support her going to university.
28:57
Speaker 1: It was there she met Glenn Maxwell. Hold The court
29:00
Speaker 1: abuse by Miss Maxwell began with a massage. Miss Farmer
29:05
Speaker 1: said she pulled the sheet down and exposed my breasts
29:08
Speaker 1: and started rubbing my chest and upper breasts. The door
29:12
Speaker 1: to the room was open. I had this sense he
29:15
Speaker 1: could see me. On another occasion, Annie says Epstein crawled
29:19
Speaker 1: into bed with her. I remember being in bed in
29:22
Speaker 1: the morning and Epstein suddenly opening my door and bounding
29:25
Speaker 1: into the room in a playful way and saying he
29:28
Speaker 1: wanted a cuddle. She said he climbed into bed and
29:31
Speaker 1: pressed his body against me. With Annie Farmer's story, the
29:36
Speaker 1: prosecution rested its case. Wanted a cuddle, wanted a cuddle.
29:44
Speaker 1: Somebody comes up to one of my children, this age
29:47
Speaker 1: age fourteen, jumps in there with him, and once a curdle,
29:51
Speaker 1: they're going to be a looking at the wrong end
29:53
Speaker 1: of a barrel. I can promise you that to Jackie Howard,
29:59
Speaker 1: you know many court watchers are saying, oh, it's bad
30:02
Speaker 1: for the stay that it's been three days, hasn't been
30:05
Speaker 1: three days, And it's bad for the stay that the
30:08
Speaker 1: jury wants to hear a readback of testimony. I don't
30:11
Speaker 1: agree with that. I don't know exactly what it does mean,
30:14
Speaker 1: but it's another good and no bad. However, Jackie Howard,
30:18
Speaker 1: if they had wanted to hear testimony, I hope it
30:20
Speaker 1: was that testimony because that testimony makes me sick. So
30:23
Speaker 1: tell me about what they wanted to hear, Jackie. I'm
30:26
Speaker 1: trying to read the tea leaves the way I just
30:29
Speaker 1: discounted that totally. I'm trying to do it. Go ahead, Well,
30:32
Speaker 1: I agree with units is like trying to read the
30:34
Speaker 1: tree leaves, because I think one of the things that
30:38
Speaker 1: tea leaves not I think one of the things that
30:42
Speaker 1: the jury is trying to look at is who is
30:44
Speaker 1: credible in their information here? And that was one of
30:47
Speaker 1: the things that the defense kept hammering on, is that
30:51
Speaker 1: the women's stories changed, that they could not keep their
30:57
Speaker 1: stories straight, that they did this for money. One he
31:01
Speaker 1: accoosed of doing it to get a US visa. The
31:05
Speaker 1: other thing with the prosecution kept saying, however, is that
31:09
Speaker 1: the women were all used by Galainne Maxwell that she
31:13
Speaker 1: used the same playbook with each individual victim that she
31:17
Speaker 1: went to. So I also think that the jury is
31:20
Speaker 1: looking at and trying to decide defense or prosecution who
31:25
Speaker 1: is most accurate with what the testimony is of these
31:28
Speaker 1: women guys. How Galaine max Sell can claims she was
31:33
Speaker 1: just a house manager is beyond me. Based largely on
31:37
Speaker 1: this take a listen to our cut a fourteen our
31:41
Speaker 1: friends at Sky. The jury was handed intimate photographs of
31:45
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell together. Judging by their changing appearances,
31:50
Speaker 1: they seem to have been taken over a period of years.
31:53
Speaker 1: The prosecution says they show not only romantic partners, but
31:58
Speaker 1: partners in crime. They appear on some of the photos
32:01
Speaker 1: like any other loving couple, documenting a life of luxury
32:05
Speaker 1: lived together, a ski trip, a tight embrace, a footrub
32:12
Speaker 1: on a plane, even a visit. It seems to the
32:15
Speaker 1: Queen's Balmoral estate pictured in the same spot where her
32:18
Speaker 1: Majesty has been photographed. These pictures were found on CDs
32:23
Speaker 1: and hard drives seized during a police raid of Epstein's
32:26
Speaker 1: New York mansion, stored inside wardrobes and a safe. The
32:31
Speaker 1: court was also shown this advert apparently created by Maxwell,
32:35
Speaker 1: calling for a massage therapist. Much of Epstein's abuse centered
32:39
Speaker 1: around massages. Okay, Wendy Murphy, veteran trial, while you're way
32:44
Speaker 1: in on what you just heard. Well, it's just it's
32:46
Speaker 1: the kind of narratives in a trial that I like
32:51
Speaker 1: because bottom liners, if the jury is going to find
32:54
Speaker 1: her not guilty, they had to come up with an innocent, plausible,
32:58
Speaker 1: innocent explanation for all of that stuff, and there isn't one.
33:02
Speaker 1: There's just not there's not going to be an alternative explanation. Oh,
33:07
Speaker 1: this was innocent because she was just making thirty million dollars,
33:12
Speaker 1: you know, to keep the houses clean. She was just
33:15
Speaker 1: befriending these girls because she's a nice person. None of
33:18
Speaker 1: that makes sense. And then you know, you have this
33:21
Speaker 1: idea that, yes, Epstein might have been the primary bad guy,
33:26
Speaker 1: and yes, the defense theme that she's just being prosecuted
33:29
Speaker 1: because he's dead. Well, the jury's also going to think
33:32
Speaker 1: to itself that doesn't make her innocent. The fact that
33:35
Speaker 1: he can't be prosecuted doesn't mean she's innocent. So for me,
33:39
Speaker 1: the picture that's been drawn of what she did and
33:43
Speaker 1: the fact that when a jury uses its common sense
33:46
Speaker 1: and is deliberating and discussing all the evidence, it's going
33:49
Speaker 1: to think, you know, it's going to think, listen, we
33:52
Speaker 1: have to understand what this woman's role was in Epstein's life.
33:56
Speaker 1: Is there a plausible theory for why she was getting
34:00
Speaker 1: paid thirty billion dollars, why she was befriending these children,
34:04
Speaker 1: why she was jetting them around the country, And is
34:07
Speaker 1: the plausible explanation that she was an innocent housekeeper and
34:10
Speaker 1: all these girls are lying. That makes no sense. If
34:13
Speaker 1: there were just one victim, If there were just one
34:16
Speaker 1: victim and she had credibility problems, I might say, you know,
34:19
Speaker 1: the defense has a good case, or at least a
34:22
Speaker 1: good chance of winning by establishing a reasonable doubt. When
34:25
Speaker 1: you have four victims, they didn't come together and come
34:28
Speaker 1: up with their stories at the same time. They came
34:30
Speaker 1: separately to law enforcement, and they all happen to have
34:33
Speaker 1: the same story about what Galine did. As her pattern
34:36
Speaker 1: and prantice of conspiring with Epstein, there is no way
34:40
Speaker 1: to find her not guilty except if you know, literally
34:44
Speaker 1: lose your mind and common sense in the jury room.
34:47
Speaker 1: You know what I find particularly cruel dotor Gill. I'm
34:50
Speaker 1: circling back to you because you brought this up, of course,
34:55
Speaker 1: not just say molestations in the rapes, but they I'm
35:00
Speaker 1: to play. You mentioned that Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. Maxwell
35:05
Speaker 1: would speak to the girls about their dreams, and I
35:08
Speaker 1: played Sam for you earlier regarding any Farmer, and this
35:12
Speaker 1: is echoed by many of the victims. Farmer says she
35:16
Speaker 1: took a trip to Epstein's in New Mexico ranch because
35:19
Speaker 1: she was led to believe he could support her going
35:24
Speaker 1: to university. I see, when I was listening to the
35:29
Speaker 1: tapes and reading upon the victim's statements, they said it
35:34
Speaker 1: wasn't all sexual abuse. And I think that's also part
35:37
Speaker 1: of the grooming and part of the confusion when you
35:40
Speaker 1: put it out a fourteen year old or fifteen year
35:42
Speaker 1: old or sixteen year old or even somebody in their twenties.
35:46
Speaker 1: But they said we did other things. It wasn't just sex.
35:49
Speaker 1: And she said sex seven times a day, that Epstein
35:53
Speaker 1: wanted those quote unquote messages. But they said they also
35:57
Speaker 1: went hiking, they did crafts together, they watched TV together,
36:02
Speaker 1: they went snorkeling, they did trips, they bought clothes, So
36:07
Speaker 1: she said it was just like this odd family where
36:11
Speaker 1: you would participate with one another, engage in relationship and rapport,
36:15
Speaker 1: and then be also sexually abused at the same time.
36:19
Speaker 1: So it was confusing for them, and Epstein and Maxwell
36:25
Speaker 1: were master manipulators. Take a listen to our cut three sky,
36:31
Speaker 1: The jury heard from a British woman testifying under the
36:34
Speaker 1: pseudonym Kate. She met Glenn Maxwell, aged seventeen, at a
36:38
Speaker 1: time in her life, she says, when she was particularly lonely.
36:42
Speaker 1: She claims that Miss Maxwell then paved the way for
36:45
Speaker 1: her to be abused by Jeffrey Epstein. Kate described meeting
36:50
Speaker 1: Miss Maxwell. I felt that I had found a new
36:53
Speaker 1: connection that could be really meaningful to me, She said.
36:56
Speaker 1: I was really happy that we had connected, and she
36:59
Speaker 1: seemed as excited to desalules to have a new friend.
37:02
Speaker 1: She says. Miss Maxwell later encouraged her to give Epstein
37:05
Speaker 1: a massage, which led to a sex act. When asked
37:08
Speaker 1: why she went along with it, Kate said Miss Maxwell
37:11
Speaker 1: seemed to know everyone. She told me she was friends
37:14
Speaker 1: with Prince Andrew. You know, the prosecution is disallowed under
37:20
Speaker 1: the law from asking this question, but I'm not What
37:24
Speaker 1: if these were your girls and you find out years
37:29
Speaker 1: later that under your watch they were molested. We wait
37:37
Speaker 1: as the jury deliberates Nancy Gray's Crown Story, signing off
37:40
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,