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SBP 227: The Sharp Cut - Brand Does Not Belong to Marketing · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Some episodes of milk.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're good for a weekend.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: This one, it's a little more like olive oil.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: Five years ago we sat down to define what a brand is, who owns it, how do you make one?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: And the answer really hasn't spoiled a bit.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: We've changed our thinking slightly, but there's so many good things in here that we really wanted to share it again.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Enjoy.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast, a place for business leaders to get the best and most credible information on marketing, strategy, and innovation.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Your hosts, Mark Binkley and Vasily Storos, share their experiences as they gather insights from the world's leading experts.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on with the show.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Intro man.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Two Intro Man and go action.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got V and Mark, just the two of us today.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: V.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: We decide we're going to pick a light topic called branding and just very light.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, super light.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: And just talk about it with the sort of framework, a loose framework around three pillars.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: One is what is it?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Two is who owns it.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: And three is why is it useful?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a good chat.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's going to be a great chat.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I gotta admit, this discussion actually, for for me, at least from my perspective, was inspired by something I saw on LinkedIn, which kind of showed brand in a hierarchy and where it potentially could live and really kind of disrupts what you would normally think.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's uh it's a timely project.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, no project, it's a timely topic.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because I think when we look at branding and how it applies to a lot of organizations, I gotta say, I don't think there's many that really do it right, especially from how and where it lives.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's uh it's a it's an interesting topic to get into.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we gotta start by what is it?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is brand?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wanna kick us off, Mark?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is gonna be the right answer, obviously.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's a funny one because there's there's a few people that I'll reference in the sort of their thinking and explaining what I believe a brand is.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the guys that I've followed for a while, Marty Newmeyer, talks about a brand as being the gut feeling that other people have about your company product or service, which I like that because it's not a logo.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's part of his thing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a logo is part of the branding palette, but it's not just that.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um we interviewed Roger Martin.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: He has this really interesting idea about brand, which connects to what Martin Umar is saying is in that he would say branding is about generating confidence.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: So creating an expectation and then delivering on that and doing that over and over again.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I think for me, those two examples or or definitions or something merging those two would it'd be what I think important.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you brought up Roger Martin.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's doing some light research for this topic.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I came across a quote where he says, branding isn't about advertising and PR, it's about how your firm fundamentally is going to compete.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's also going into another direction where it's like that differentiator.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: You and I are both in school right now, and I I wrote a paper on branding and loyalty.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I loosely define branding as the very motion and purpose it projects upon consumers.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason because I was trying obviously to tie it back to loyalty as well, but the the idea is it's it's almost like that mind space that your brand or service occupies in consumers' minds, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the that's the important distinction here.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's you're right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I it's not it's not a logo, it's not the colors.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Does that help build brand?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's the identity, but brand encompasses everything.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: But all too often I also think marketers or even businesses, you know what?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even marketers in this case, but branding is not the same as marketing.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're different things.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I could see that.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: What what makes you like how would you give some examples of things that would be on the marketing side of that equation versus the brand side of the equation?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like in in my opinion, like marketing, even talking to Chris Walker and you know Mary when we're we're going through the the podcast there, the marketing to me is I think about it as like the promotional activities and not the promotional activities in the context of sales and stuff like that.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a part of it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just getting your your message out there.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be anything from raising awareness to a new product that is a promotional activity.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that you're doing to extend to cons to customers' loyalty would be considered a marketing activity.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Branding, on the other hand, is essentially like it's the result of actions that you take to differentiate yourself or differentiate your products.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be your the very people on the front line.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of your brand.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it could be essentially the how your product is packaged.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: That is part of the brand.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's how you show up in your customer in customer service.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do you help people?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of your brand.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for me it's the promotional activity and then essentially how you show up in those instances.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a the that is the easiest way for me to define essentially like what are the two different uh areas.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it's in it's interesting because the like classic four Ps of marketing, which is price, product, place, promotion.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: The pacifier.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh no, sorry, that was a SWAT analyzing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's a SWAT analysis, which is so good.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: But the four P's, I think, is is are are like building blocks of that brand.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and so the marketing aspect and relating it to just you hear people saying like marketing's everyone's job.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: And if you think about the four Ps, then it is.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: But if you think about marketing as just the promotion team, then it then it's just really the marketing team that does that kind of thing more so than anything.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it kind of like it's a this is where brand I think gets confusing because if you think about marketing as the four Ps, then a lot of the things that you were talking about is brand actually become marketing.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's overlap between those two.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Quite a bit of overlap, actually.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would challenge there, and I I agree with you in the context that you know there's this level of understanding that everyone's responsible for marketing in your specific areas, right?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that r needs to be reframed in the context that brand is everyone's responsibility.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Marketing and promotion is a marketing promotions team.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: But we use that interchangeably in a lot of cases.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where again we're we're creating this false sense of what brand actually is.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because notoriously in a lot of companies, what do they do, Mark?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: They just throw brand underneath the marketing team.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then the marketing team is forced to become like the police, the brand police.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're doing this wrong, you're not, you know, the font's not right, you're not using the right context, the tonality's wrong, you didn't follow the narrative document, you know, all these things.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what the marketing team role is, in my opinion.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Marketing team's role is there to promote products, services, generate content to increase awareness of something that is the brand that creates affinity, brand equity.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Mary talked about this.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're they're two different things, but all too often they're put together just because when you think of brand, you think of marketing.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's true.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I think this is the hard part about the space that we're in.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if if you were to go to an engineer and say, what's the law of gravity?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, what are the what are the laws of physics that apply to it?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like they don't argue about that kind of stuff.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's where it's interesting for us, but it's also challenging for us because we're sitting in a room with other people where there's accountants, let's say, who know that a return on assets is there's a formula for that.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we're sitting there going, well, it depends.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: Can you describe marketing?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: It depends what you mean.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Can you describe branding?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it depends.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's not a hard and fast rule.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: To your point, though, about the brand police, so to speak, for marketing departments.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: I do think like I really like the Erenbert Bass Institute and a lot of their work.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of their work is carried over to the B2B Institute for LinkedIn.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Both of which talk a lot about distinctive assets.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so I do think those are important.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where brand elements come in.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: The brand identity comes in.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: So your logo, your tone of voice, the tagline, the colors, all those things you described, characters, mission saving jingles.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: So all those things I think do matter, and somebody needs to be managing that kind of stuff.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: So might as well be marketing, in that if it truly is the sense of the marketing department is more the promotion department.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: You need to show up consistently and cohesively across different mediums and channels and all that kind of stuff.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I I don't have an issue with the marketing team being the brand police, so to speak, or the brand identity police, just so that it does create that consistency.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: But to go back to what you were saying before, we were saying before, like I don't think brand is just about a distinctive brand identity.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: It is more than that.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: It is the things around it.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: So a customer experience, the frontline frontline employees, um, the way a product is delivered or packaged or all those things you talked about, which is encompassing of more people within the organization.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, the the other side of this is when we look at marketing and we look at branding, it's probably one of the only disciplines that has so many different people chiming in on it or affecting it in some way or another, which then makes it difficult to make it tangible for a specific group of people because it transcends one discipline or sorry, it transcends one department.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think this is where it becomes difficult for us as marketers, is because everyone has an opinion, because everyone's a consumer.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So what may work on you may not work on me, may not work on someone else, right?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So and because of those nuances, what that happens, especially in organizations, you can have a really espresso CEO that sees themselves as a marketer and will make decisions based on personal experiences or that focus group of one that we keep saying, right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where again it became it's well, my friends don't do that.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that means my daughter doesn't do that.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's true.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that creates a very difficult environment for those that exercise in in marketing or or brand disciplines, and it makes it difficult to do the job because again, you're constantly fighting upstream in areas that, you know, when we look at tactics or strategies that come up that are, you know, written for marketers to kind of look to adapt and adopt, but sometimes we meet that friction internally.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I want to go back to that whole sense is does brand and marketing do they live together?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I and I don't know if it does, because I think, you know, when you think about the the the two disciplines themselves and the differ uh how they differentiate, if you were to pull brand out and actually have it, you know, report right into the CEO as an example.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you have a chief brand officer with a team that would be responsible for to transcend all areas of the business and how it creates that brand, I would argue that it would actually create that level of focus more so than it just being a marketing discipline.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of it being pawned off almost like, well, the marketing team will manage that.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I just I I don't think it I'm not against the idea, but I don't know if it should naturally live there personally.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the the other thought that I just had while you were saying that is like a marketing for the most part, let's say they control the messaging that most customers are seeing.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Or or they have a huge influence in that anyway.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: And because they're running the ads, they're building messages, they're you know, working on product shelf messaging, they're working on TV ads, they're you know, all these kinds of things that are intended to get a lot of reach, and they're the ones that are crafting messages and getting that approved.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I often think about this in that an ad just amplifies the truth.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: So what I mean by that is it doesn't really matter what the ad says, it's my own experience or reviews or all those kinds of things that I think kind of going back to Roger Martin's thing about creating confidence or generating confidence.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: If I see an ad and I don't believe it because I had a poor experience, it's just gonna amplify my truth.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: So no matter what, like the ad might say, you know, serving customers and you know, happily since 1956, and then I might have an experience where it was like, I had a terrible experience with this company, and that was in 2020.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I I could care less about what happened since 1956.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think they actually do a good job because my experience was outweighs most of that other stuff.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Or if the Google reviews.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I think about like the brand isn't just the messaging, like anybody can say anything they want.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's also the back end of that in terms of how that product or service is brought to life.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the more cohesive and congruent those two things are, the better matched they are, the stronger the brand, which I think is part of that brand equity conversation we had with Mary, and that the more congruent and the more cohesive, the more we're willing to pay for things and the more we're willing to be patient for things because we believe those to be better products and services.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me let me ask you let me ask you this.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: In your in your opinion, what is the goal of branding?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I you know, I I'm just kind of trying to catch myself because I just said branding is partly to pay more for something.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like the goal is to partly pay more for something.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: But Walmart is a really good example of a company where they have a really good brand.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Their brand is about everyday low prices, and I don't expect to pay more when I go there.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just bought Uno half off, just saying.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's completely irrelevant.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I was playing Uno the last night, and they told me that they had a 50th anniversary edition that was just now 50% off at Walmart, and I went and picked it up.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And because I knew you talked about the everyday low prices, I knew I was gonna get the best price for this.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought it was I walked in, and sure enough, there it is, half price, walked out.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: So in that sense, like I, you know, if I'm trying to think of a definition that applies to all companies, I think it is really more about that gut feeling and about creating an expectation.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: And the branding element from a marketing perspective is maybe like in the case of Walmart, is to create that expectation that people know that the Walmart brand is a place for everyday low prices in all kinds of categories.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas in uh, let's say Ferrari, if I'm running the Ferrari brand, I fully like I don't like we don't need to advertise the price.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone knows it's ridiculously expensive.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not why you're buying, I mean, you're buying it because the price is really high, probably, and because you expect performance, a performance vehicle out of that expense.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, I and I agree with that definition.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like a in a in its simplest form, it's almost like you're you're create branding is creating that that image, if you will, and the goal of branding is that image, so the moment that you think of Walmart, Ferrari, Shell, or whatever, you're thinking about something that comes to mind.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the result of branding.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right marketing and the goal of marketing, and I'd love to I'd love your take on this, is it not attracting qualified leads in its simplest form by messaging, by your campaigns, by product launch?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I really don't think that the role of marketing is all too different than just making sure you're driving intent or capitalizing on that intent.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, so I I think this kind of goes back to that chat we had a little bit with Chris Walker on long like he's saying demand gen, lead gen.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: We could say tactical brand.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: We could also, like Les Bonett and Peter Field talk about, long and short.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: So depending on I I would put all those things in the same kind of category.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there are I think I think the job of marketing's role and creating the brand is to build an expectation like so for people who are potential customers, whether they're buying today or buying tomorrow.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: The buying today bit is, you know, that lead gen bit or tactical or the short-term kind of vision.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: The buying tomorrow bit is about building mental structures so that I'm going to think of that brand or that company or the product or the service when I should think of that brand, company or service.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So in that sense, I I think brand awareness is actually pretty dumb.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, going back to the Ferrari thing, I don't think Ferrari's job is, you know, if I'm a marketer for Ferrari, I don't think my job is to make anybody who's considering buying a car think of Ferrari.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think my job would be for people who are looking for a high performance vehicle and don't have money as an object or objection, then I want them to think of Ferrari.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Agreed.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's a category, and this is some of the work from Remember Bass, but there's a category entry point, and you can for almost and probably multiple for all kinds of products.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: So if you were to market share rank all those category entry points of what the triggers are that make somebody want to purchase a product, then you could take those lists top down and you manage the brand portfolio in the sense of I know like all these top five entry points to get into a purchasing mode for the particular category of let's say high performance vehicles.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: I want to link Ferrari to those top five.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: The bottom five, so be it.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: They can go to other brands.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: But the biggest ones are the ones that I want to build those mental recall structures to.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: So brand awareness, but specific kind of recall so that I remember Ferrari when I'm in the mode of like whatever the top triggers are.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: You said something there that and I wrote it down actually because I love the way you articulated it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying you're talking about come on, yeah, man.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, this is good.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is cool.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is we're gonna make this a promo quote.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in in all fairness, like you said, brand is responsible for building mind structures.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that visual stimulus that that those two words kind of create for me, it's like, yeah, no, I get it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you're thinking about a brand and how the emotion that it it potentially elicits, I think of Nike as one of those ones, you know.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know we both have background in sports and and whatnot.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So Nike really resonates with me because of that performance background.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I it it does it push me to be better, no.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: But if I want to get the best gear, I will probably go down Nike route.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, my long heritage in basketball and the way they, you know, they they look to bring on like their ambassadors and and whatnot.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, the that emotion that that brand elicits in me is is essentially trying to be better at what I do.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the the mind structures that you spoke to is exactly what the brand is responsible for.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah the vehicle of communication, however, becomes the responsibility of marketing in in my mind.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a brand framework that's created by a brand team.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: The communication, though, becomes a responsibility of marketers in the context of advertising.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then, of course, well, how does that transcend again to your customer service department?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: How does that transcend into your your frontline department?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that is guest-facing, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: But the communication, the advertising strategy, the tonality and whatnot, that's brought to life, again, in my opinion, by the marketing team.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: The framework, though, is coming from the brand team.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, let's take Nike as an example.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a couple of things I'm just gonna try and weave together here using Nike.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, and you said basketball.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: So they've got these amazing athletes.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: So the marketing team, I think, would be the ones that manage those relationships with, say, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, let's say, those two.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: And they're using those people as part of their brand ambassadors and building a product and that kind of stuff with their names and image and all that kind of stuff.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so that becomes a business line for them.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: The marketing departments are using those people in ads for basketball, and so they're building these mental memory structures between Nike and basketball, using those athletes as the sort of validation or continuity or like social proofing or whatever you want to call it.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's I so the couple things.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: There's I had interviewed Jenny Romanik a while back.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: She's from the Ehrenberg Bass Institute and wrote a great book called Distinctive Assets.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so we were talking about, you know, for all the times that people say they're customer-centric or companies say they're customer-centric, you know, that's a thing, and that's great.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: But we often kind of overlook some of the basic fundamentals of people as customers, in that people work off of memory.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: And memory is a in in a constant state of decay.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like I forget birthdays all the time.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: I forget, which is awful.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, even my brother's birthday, you know, like we've been brothers for my whole life.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: And there's times I've for there's been a couple years where I forgot his birthday.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: He has to work on his branding then.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: He does have to work on his branding.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: But like that's for a person I love and for brands that think that the customer loyalty is the be all and end all, and like brands are gonna, you know, the people love these brands and will always do all these kinds of amazing things, you know, like tattoo stuff on their bodies and you know, we'll always be loyal.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's not real.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think it's a good way to think about brands.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: The job of marketing is to continue.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Continuously build those memory structures because people will forget about them.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: So, like Michael Jordan, awesome basketball player, top of his game, greatest basketball player ever, then comes LeBron.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Then I don't know who's next, but somebody's gonna come next.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: And like he's gonna get that person because now it's speaking to a new generation.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: And still there's this nostalgia from these other ones, but they need to continue that that lineage and continue brand building because they need to reach a lot more people and make sure that new people think about them when they're trying to when they're thinking about basketball and buying product.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so they'll use this new whoever the new superstar is to continue that lineage of b brand building over time.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it comes back down to consistency and frequency.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: What's tying this lineage as you s as you speak to, which I I completely agree with, is the ability to win, the ability to be at the top of your craft.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the common denominator that's stitching all these superstars together, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: The Jordans, the Kobe Bryants, the LeBron James, the, you know, the Giannis, the Kumbo Now, for example, really become like those poster childs or poster children for the, you know, for building that brand equity.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And let's not forget, Mary, you know, on the podcast or our first podcast, she she called consumers serial adulterers.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it of course, if you stop doing that at some point, Gen Z never watched Jordan.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: They may not even know who Jordan is.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a it's a story, perhaps, that they may understand.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: But right now, they know Giannis or they know Kevin Durant, they know Kyrie Irving.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: These players, they know.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a lot different in the sense that, you know, if a brand just had one campaign, and look, think about like if we if we stay on this theme, the Pumas of the world, Addy, and some of these other brands that have come in and out of the sport, well, it's almost like they they leverage these launch and leave tactics because they are not creating that longevity that creates that stickiness then, if you will, or occupies that mind space or builds those mind structures, any way you want to put it, about that that brand and what that brand actually elicits in in your emotional state or in that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's a good point because then there's like going back to what Roger was saying, like you know, about generating confidence.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: So the reason why some of those other brands may be, you know, transient is because they don't make a long-term business commitment to that vertical or that category basketball, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so the marketing team could do whatever they want for a period of time, but you know there's no product to support it, and it that's not their choice.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know, maybe the business's choice for getting out of that category.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like Reebok way back when it when Shaq was the guy, right?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: That was like they had the pumps and it was like the biggest thing ever.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: And now he owns I think he owns it, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Reebok.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: But they he has something there, yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: But they're not really a meaningful player in basketball.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I don't really know actually what they I'm not that close to it anymore, but it seems to me they're more CrossFit than they are basketball.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I part of it's because they made a choice, I assume, that is too hard to compete in basketball.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: So they went to some other area that had less competition.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: CrossFit MMA became the thing.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so their product portfolio then revolved around serving that cuss community.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so they had to rebuild their brand in order to be able to do that.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the marketing team is just the one of the vehicles that had to coordinate to support the product choices that they're making and the categories that they're going after.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, i again, uh I don't want to keep referencing Mary here, but she she also did brought bring up like, you know, if you recall, like the the brand power or the secret sauce, and she she talked about it being meaningful, different, and salient, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I if you we look at in the context of your Reebok example, I I think you and I would be hard pressed to identify what has Reebok become.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: You talked about CrossFit, but that's such a niche market to really kind of double down on.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: But for the life of me, I cannot think of what else their brand strategy is built on currently.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Something like Nike, it's very clear.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's remained consistent, which then goes back to what Mary was saying is that it's it's meaningful.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: One would argue the reason it's different is because they're really kind of pushing that high performance or really articulating it in that global scale a lot better than other brands are potentially in the same space.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when when we're to get to that point, the Nikes of the world, and I know that's always it's always like the Nikes or the Apples of the world, you have to think about the amount of work they actually put in to get to the point that they are today.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can even add the McDonald's, you can add any of these big brands.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that consistency that has been there over the last 30, 40, 50, 60 years, or whatever the case may be, that helps build that brand affinity and that brand story.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: When you lose consistency, and this is again the struggle where organizers sometimes don't see the value in brand and why I believe it needs to be split out from marketing, is because it's like, well, you know what?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: We we turned off all our marketing campaigns, or we turned off anything, any brand awareness campaigns, and we're still driving sales.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens is people are looking at it through the lens of short-termism.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the long-term effect that pause or that, you know, reduction in budget may have will be down the root line because you stopped seeking that mind space that is that was occupied by your brand.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it all it takes is another competitor, fresh new look, something offering something different.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then all of a sudden it's just like, you know what?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds pretty cool.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go check this out.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the part that I think Mary was talking about, which is the you know, the customers are adulterers.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: People I mean I'm trying to think of something I'm super passionate about.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, well, both of us are cyclists.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: What's your favorite?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have Rafa clothing.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: They're pretty good brand.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I really like them.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't only own Rafa clothes.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: I have Sigoy, I have I wanna buy some other stuff.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh some of the Australian brands that are out there.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Cafe du cyclist is super cool.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, I want to get lots of that stuff.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: My shoes are Jiro, my helmets are Jiro, my glasses are oak.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm not loyal the way that people brands think of loyalty.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm I'm a loyal cyclist, I'm an avid cyclist, I like doing it.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you and I both do.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: But neither one of us would say that all of our gear is exclusively from exclusively from one company.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's just not realistic to think like that as a brand, like I don't think, as a company.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's more detrimental to think of building customer loyalty as the end goal.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's not.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's and I think that's where Nike and McDonald's and all the big br Apple, they grew because they acquired more customers who then become more loyal.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: But they don't grow because they have these loyal customers that only buy like you know, like a thousand true fans ideas or you know, they buy everything you do.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because eventually those thousand true fans are gonna stop buying eventually.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then you need to do what find more customers to replace the ones that just churned out because churn is inevitable.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you find those new customers?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about the, you know, you can have, yes, you have your loyal base that you can likely go back to that wealth consistently and helps drive sales, revenue, and and all the rest.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're looking then to expand, now you're moving into territory that maybe you perhaps didn't own previously, or you're trying to convince others that aren't loyal to your brand to become loyal to yours, or to at least try it, or whatever the case may be.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: In a context of marketing, we know, you and I both know that doing that costs a lot more than trying to build off of potentially your your own audiences.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that is, again, the secret in building a you know, that longevity in a brand is making sure that you're still reaching outside of that space.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell I don't know that it costs more though.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like I maybe I'm misunderstanding.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Are you saying that it costs more to get new customers than it does to keep what old ones?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in the premise, yes.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, the one that's already been loyal will likely not need to be sold the product or service in the same way, may not need to ingest so much content to be com to try potentially.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the the recency and the frequency required to bring in someone that knew is going to quote unquote cost more.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: The way I'm trying to imply that it costs more is is in the context that it's it's gonna cost more in terms of your building out content strategies that are gonna outreach or be used more from an outreach perspective than those that you would just speak to on that one-to-one basis.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I know where you're gonna go with this, and I'm not gonna disagree with you because I think you're right.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: But hear me out.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I I I believe that when we're looking at, you know, uh building out content strategies, right?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: When the marketing team is tasked with saying, I need to bring this story to life, there's two audiences you need to speak to.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's the audience that already knows you, and there's an audience that doesn't know you, or potentially maybe doesn't have that same affinity.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the way you communicate to those segments should be different, which will increase the content demands on what message you're going to put out.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like the idea of treating everybody the same in the context of I maybe not in the same place of my cons my decision journey in terms of what I'm looking for.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I need you to appeal to me in a more, I won't call it, I hate the word personalized, because that implies I know everything about you.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that term personalized is overused.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I think we you and I did a panel for CMA a while back where we talked about this.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe though in the customization of messages.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So how does that story transcend someone that has a high affluence towards your brand versus someone that is not?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So in my mind, when I think about it costs more, it's going to cost more because of that ability to storytell in different contexts for that consumer in a different way.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Go.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're ready to pounce on this.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's just I mean, like, so what's this guy's name?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Frederick Reinhold, I think, is the guy that came up with that notion that it costs more to make a customer than it does to keep one.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: So again, like, you know, kind of a convert to Aaron Berg Bass's work, but they did some research looking at it.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: I went and read the source file that that statement comes from.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's a thought experiment.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's no truth to it, but it becomes one of those things.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, Roger Martin talked about this, where like stupid ideas sometimes just take root and they become they become fact like bloodletting or making w water pipes out of lead and stuff like that.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: It is one of those things where it has no validity to it from the statement, but all of us say it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: So for example, let's say we have a budget, I don't know, whatever it is,$10,000 to produce a piece of content, and we're going to distribute that to$100,000 people.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: I should have done this differently.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Let's call it$100,000.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's too early to do math.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say it costs us$100,000 to make a piece of content and we have$100,000 known customers that we distribute that to.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say it's email and it goes to all of them.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: So then you would say that's a dollar per person.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say we take that$100,000 and we send it out.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: But let's say we have$100,000 to produce a piece of content, and then we spend uh a hundred another$100,000 to reach a million people.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: So the cost per person is I hope the math works out on that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: I can't figure it out.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's cheaper to do it that way to mass reach than it is to the known group of people.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it's and even at that, like it's not really that meaningful because we still have to reach them all.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because I have no idea, just because they're a known purchaser in the past doesn't mean they're gonna buy now.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: I have to also reach people who I don't know who are gonna potentially buy in the future, who are maybe like category buyers or non-loyalists or whatever the case may be, whatever you want to call them.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: But sure, I still have to reach them all because I, you know, my my media spend and exclusion targeting, all that kind of stuff may be unique and different for reaching those groups, but if I'm trying to drive revenue and I'm trying to drive growth, I have to go to all of them.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: So then I would in that in that context, then for me, what becomes important, and Chris said this as well, intent becomes important.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with the the broad reach tactics.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously you always want to introduce those elements in any campaign, any messaging that you put together, because it just helps, you know, maximize sorry, not maximize, but it helps really kind of uh create that that reach that you want from from any campaign.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to just focus on, you know, those that are, you know, already visited your website or already abandoned cart or hitting that email audience.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: There is that notion though that you know 80% of revenue probably still comes from 20 of your traffic or 20% of your CRM database or 20% of something.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I still believe that relation e exists.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I see it today.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, looking at reach through that through that lens, I don't I don't disagree.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: But would you agree that the content needs to change, though?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or is the content the content and the way you're consuming it doesn't even matter?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go tell my story, my brand story.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: And doesn't matter if you're in my ecosystem or you're not, I'm just gonna tell it one way.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that there should be a differentiation there that goes and back and creates that affinity that we're talking about from a brand perspective?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you feel like it actually doesn't even matter?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I mean it's it's I I it's a tough one.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: I it it's all I guess this is where it depends.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go back to the terrible hands.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: It depends because I I think I think you know, if you're building a message that reaches a lot of people, some of which let's say you buy TV.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I just read an article this morning about TV is the best medium to reach like category buyers.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say we do a TV campaign to promote the brand.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say it's a new thing, a new shoe that the new LeBron shoe is coming out.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go back to that example.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: We have the companies built all kinds of new shoes, they're distributing them.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: They're gonna be in stores on whatever date, June 1st.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: We're trying to promote this new shoe to all category buyers.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: Cool.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: So we got this new shoe.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna reach, I'm gonna use TV because it's a great medium to reach a lot of people, whether they have been past purchasers or not.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: I want them to all know that there's a new shoe dropping July 1st or June 1st.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: For people who are in our database, I may have like an insider's email, like here's where to get it on June 1st.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: Would I make it exclusively available to them?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe if it was a limited run and I wanted to create buzz.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: But if I have like, I don't know, five billion pairs of these shoes, then no, I'm gonna sell it to everybody that's uh that I can because there's five billion of them and there's whatever, seven billion people on the planet.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: So like I need to sell a lot of these things, and so I'm gonna try and make as many people aware of them who are and reach them through content in that probably a guy that plays rugby.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just making this up, but a guy who plays rugby or a painter may not care at all about the the new LeBron shoe dropping.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: So in that sense, the creative itself is gonna be targeting people because it's not for painters, it's for people who want to play basketball or think about, you know, basketball or want to be associated with basketball.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, sure.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: So that would be the in my mind, the difference of where that like it's hard it depends.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: The classic answer from a marketer, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: It depends.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: It depends if you know what the if I had a thousand pair of shoes, I wouldn't do a TV campaign campaign either.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like I would go just to the exclusive hardcore bars or maybe through some influencer network or uh sneakerheads or something like that where it's exclusively for a small group of people.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, I and I don't disagree with anything that you said there.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the what we're trying to achieve in say the context of the shoe, if five billion versus a thousand pairs of shoes, and how do we bring that to life, it's gonna influence obviously the marketing mix that we use or the media plan that gets created and how your target, how your target audience is gonna be essentially created to achieve those results.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that that goes that's a big part of in terms of like how's that brought to life.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we tie it back to the branding exercise that we're talking about, where I think the cost comes in is if there's already an affinity or a no of your product, there's could be a case being made that maybe I don't need to spend as much on some of those outreach tactics because uh there's already an affinity towards the product and I could potentially, you know, target that, you know, that consumer more efficiently.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I get what you're saying, that it depends on how many of those shoes we need to sell.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: What does that audience actually look like?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't quantify this.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that, you know, I have a mathematical formula sitting in my back pocket that I pull out every time to prove to the C-suite that this is how it's done.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't exist.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna get into measurement in a second.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I I do believe that there's something to be said with the consistency that's getting created by brands.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I believe over time, I gotta be careful how I say this, but the recency effect costs less to remain top of mind than it is trying to build something net new for existing customers.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: For existing customers.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: I I I could see where you're going with.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm uh let's say I'm let's use the Nike thing.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm wearing the shoes.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: So every time I put them on, I'm seeing the logo.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: So there's there is certainly a a recency effect that is there because you're using the product.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into your favorite topic, Mark.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, what's my favorite topic?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Brand measurement.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: That is one of my favorite.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: I need you to talk to me about NPS.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: I don't yeah.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: So Frederick Reichel is the same guy that came up with red NPS.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: So MPS is a really interesting tool in that it the literally asks people a question on a scale of zero to ten.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Please tell me whether you would recommend us to a friend.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: Based on that single question, then you take the promoters, which are I think it's is it eight, nine, ten or seven, eight, nine, ten, minus the detractors, which is like zero to four, I think it is.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then the neutrals, you just throw them out.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then that creates your net promoter score.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then you can benchmark that net promoter score against other brands and companies and categories and organizations within your category or other categories as well.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a really simple question and was promoted primarily, I think, by Bain, if I'm not mistaken.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that was their I think they bought that company.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm anyway, I don't know the whole history, but they really kind of adopted it and then promoted it to all their partner organizations that they work with.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it became this thing because it's so simple to execute and so simple to measure.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: And everybody loves benchmarking, so it becomes this thing that you can benchmark best practices.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: So net promoter score, like if you think about it, my problem with it isn't so much that you're asking the question.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: My problem with it is that if you lose customers, net promoter score goes up because the only people who are left are people who like your company.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I I don't disagree.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, and that's a known problem with net promoter score.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, like that in itself is a challenge for me in that the way that net promoter score is used is liberally applied to all kinds of different scenarios.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: I heard I heard a one organization the other day that was saying they were asking that question, how willing are you to promote us to your friends or refer us to your friends in the context of signing up for a product or service?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, but in the context of customer service and their experience with customer service, like how rate us today, how do we do?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then would you be willing on a scale of one to 10 or 0 to 10 to refer us?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, that doesn't really make any sense.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why would why would you not just ask them how we did?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, forget about the net promo because the you're now applying something that's not even asking the right question to the scenario that you're asking it for.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: So for the sake of like you can measure net promoter score in a whole bunch of places throughout the whole organization.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: So you can effectively, in a sense, measure the brand over multiple touch points.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't think it's the right measurement and the right metric.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: And there's some false positives that we just talked about.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like as you lose customers, your score is gonna go up because the only people that like you or the only people that are sticking around are the ones that like you.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: So that's not super helpful either.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's not predictive of anything.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: So that's my challenge with net promoter score.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I unfortunately, I'm gonna get into this in a second.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's one metric to rule them all when it comes to brand.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think that's what creates that ambiguity again within organizations and why it becomes a very difficult sell sometimes internally to kind of make that case.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Revenue.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can that not be a brand metric?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Average transaction value could be a brand metric.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that we've disassociated sometimes those at the end of the day, the things that actually matter to the business, which is revenue, average transaction value.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: We disassociate brand to say, you know what, brand is just helping build the upper funnel.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I don't want to get into the whole funnel conversation because that's a whole other shit show.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we've exasperated what that funnel looks like.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it's it's in the same context anymore.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: But for the sake of argument right now, brand will naturally position themselves as being those upper funnel tacks, creating that affinity, creating the why, creating all that.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would argue that is a tactic, 100%, but you should still be correlating revenue at the end of the day.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: I yeah, I think so.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I I was just thinking about this before when we were chatting, like there's this pricing thermometer that I really like as a model.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so it kind of talks about the base price.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that's your like your cost for for manufacturing, delivering any kind of product to the market.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then above that there's like perceived value and then intrinsic value and all kinds of different things.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: But brand historically when we talk about it is like in the case of Ferrari where we say well we're building this brand or Starbucks because it increases the perceived value and therefore that's how you can measure brand or brand equity is the difference in terms of the actual cost that people are willing to pay comparison to the competitors.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: So like I was just doing the thing this morning a cup of Starbucks is 23% more than a cup of coffee at McDonald's.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a brand impact there.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: But in the case of Walmart and and so that's measurable that's that's a perceived difference.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's a value value difference.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Transaction costs are higher for Starbucks than they are for McDonald's.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: On the other hand, McDonald's may say well our goal for coffee isn't just to have a premium price for coffee, but it's to increase our basket size.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or as in the case of Walmart, to be known as the place for everyday low costs, it's not just that you went and bought a deck of cards, a deck of Uno cards, it's maybe that on average your basket size is bigger and therefore the margin per transaction is higher because they're increasing the revenue that way.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: So there's certain amounts of brand elements that is tied to revenue that it doesn't always have to be about price premium, but it's about um you know total total basket size, let's say or average transaction value or profit per transaction, so so on and so forth.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think you're right like it is about revenue, but it doesn't have to exclusively be about a premium.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like what I like the distinction you just made there.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be about a premium.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I think as brand marketers in various disciplines you can start looking at at revenue over time, obviously because it's not going to be in the moment.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we know sometimes those campaigns do create that halo effect that probably transcend the 90, 180 days.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: We I totally I completely I've seen it happen.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not something that is unique.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I wouldn't be against brand marketers getting more comfortable and using some of those on-site metrics, measurable actually one that I love doing when I'm asked is look over the course of the campaign of a brand campaign that again is that that high reach, high affinity, no real call to action outside of just you know creating those emotions that you want a brand to listen potentially.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I monitor like search.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you know my opinion on branded keywords and we're not going to get into this today.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: But even something like measuring the affinity or the increase of someone searching for your brand over that duration of say that campaign will give you an idea of the impact that it may be having.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Totally and measuring that incrementality, you can then start you know doing a regression model, you start understanding like wait, if I saw an increase in my branded keywords over the course of the campaign by 15%, I can loosely start attributing revenue on that increased demand that's coming in that but unfortunately what you have to do is expand that look back window though for a campaign that doesn't have a direct call to action, which may be a sale in that moment, right?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well yeah and I used to work in radio and TV selling radio and TV and like that was our argument way back when is to say like why would you leave search to chance?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like people might type in things like let's go to coffee coffee near me but why would you leave that to chance?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: Why not tell them to search for Starbucks near me or McDonald's near me or something like that.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like give them the words to use and then you have this share of search thing that you're looking at which there's lots of good evidence and like James Hankins and Peter Spinnet have both done share of search analysis and it's in a whole bunch of cases been predictive of future market share and sales.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really interesting like Google is a huge database of human intent and you can use it for showing and predicting future trends.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: In fact in a category for automobiles and I can't remember the other one was I think it was insurance.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, it was about a six month lag.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: So what happened in search predicted about what was going to happen in about six months with market share and sales.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a hundred percent an interesting thing.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not so much about the whether it's a an emotional campaign I mean that is a thing like the emotional campaigns are generally brand campaigns but I think what ultimately is really happening there is you're trying to build memory and people who aren't in the market today aren't going to pay attention to that 15% off because they don't need it.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: So you're trying to get some attention and then building those memory structures so when they do need it, they think about your product, your category first.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: There was one other area I wanted to touch on when it comes to measurement and I think I know we're going to come up here on on time here pretty quick.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: But as digital marketers, you know, we have this love-hate relationship with last click attribution, right?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Partially because attribution still isn't happening well enough to really kind of elicit that confidence in marketers and from a reporting perspective.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to listen to Google and saying hey their display ad network is actually attributing more to revenue because you know you they can't even Chris said this, but when was the last time you may have clicked on a display ad?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that you know you don't notice them or you don't see them and it may be playing with that decision journey, but I digress.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think the problem that we're still having in true measurement in terms of the efficacy of marketing is because if we keep looking at that last click perspective, you're still going to see the searches rise to the top you see your remarketing or retargeting tactics rise to the top so marketers are going to naturally still lean into that space.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: What would your advice be I guess to our listeners when we're looking at measurement now and attribution and whatnot, how does that tie in back to showing if your campaign, your brand campaign was actually effective or not?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean yes yeah it's I I mean I'm super curious to hear what you have to say too because I mean we both have played in this space a bit.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: Here's from my perspective attribution like you and I both worked in retail both worked with significant budgets both managing search on Black Friday and Cyber Monday.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Super interesting experience for a whole bunch of reasons but it's literally like watching the stock market ticker and you're just like managing your budget and just putting money from this one that's underperforming in terms of ROAS and this one that's that's high performing.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: And performance is literally all about how much money we're making off this category search keyword whatever per like almost to the minute.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: So you're constantly moving money around just to get the biggest bang for your buck.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: On a day like that I think last click attribution is a good thing.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like what else are you going to do?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's just a ton of people in the market buying all at once in a single day or over period of days.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you know a last click attribution has a role but that was a single channel.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: We're looking exclusively at search.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now if we were to say well we should do the same thing with Facebook and uh YouTube and our TV campaigns, you can't.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: You just can't.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Plus you're you're running in a situation where then you have to guess on if you're going to go last click on all those different channels, you're gonna have to guess on which channel deserves the credit.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because my Facebook ad may be driving maybe getting credit from Facebook for creating that sale but Google's gonna claim credit.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then if you're on Amazon Amazon claim credit, I mean they'll that may be a unique scenario but all these channels may be claiming credit.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile TV and radio are sitting there going I can't get any credit.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody throw me a boat.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah so like so then you run into like complications.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I do think there's scenarios where last click is valuable can make sense like in that scenario with Black Friday.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: In general though I don't think it has a lot of value for a whole bunch of reasons most of the other time in part because of that duplication of credit.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: So who's going to get the credit?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then what are we actually doing?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because then a natural inclination it's the same thing as branded keywords your natural inclination is to go to where you're getting performance.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: So branded keywords are always going to be amazing because that's people are typing in my brand and my my ads are serving them and they're clicking on my ad.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: So great massive performance but people were going to go there anyway.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: There's tons of studies that prove that so then as a marketer if you're not taking or capping your budget on branded keywords then you may actually be like hurting yourself because you're not reaching new people you're just reaching the people who are already thinking of buying you.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I like it it has to be both.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: You can't you can't go all in on on a last click model or like high performance sort of metric click-through metric or whatever the thing is because you also need to reach new people and things like TV come into play and things like you know I don't love display ads but things like that radio matters things like you know reach tactics matter things like a brand video let's say that's a highly emotive one with the new Nike LeBron shoe coming out June 1st you said right yeah June 1st it's gonna be amazing but to like create that amazing sort of sensory experience and like get you excited about stuff and and even have people who are just casual buyers of that particular product even know that it's out there that matters.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah no and and you're right and it goes back to from a marketer's perspective answer it depends.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right and it it really does depend.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Black Friday's a great example where likely on that day you're gonna attribute a lot of your success to your CRM database or your email database and search.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be but the reality is you've already been building affinity or or uh the sense of why choose that product or that service over that time over Black Friday even before that.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: So then now the decisions already been made people have already done their research and now they know that they want to come to brand X or company Y to make that purchase and you're trying to capture that share of wallet over that day.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: You touched a little bit on brand and the only thing on branded keywords and the only thing my recommendation would always be on this is if you want net new customers, you invest money in the generic keyword space full stop.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't convince me otherwise where I see value in investing your branded keywords and I'm going to sound like a Google rep right now, but is when you are and when you look at you know where the search behavior is coming from a lot of it is coming on mobile devices.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there is an opportunity that because of the SERP page on mobile is a lot smaller that if you're not and the attention spans are different because remember when you're searching on your mobile versus your desktop desktop you're in full research mode your mobile it's like you're skimming you know at least that maybe that's more again focus group of one means everybody does it.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where I do see value in investing in your branded keywords to reduce the friction.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: But as long as you're not tying back performance because of that and saying that this was this revenue was likely going to come my way anyways I just made it easier for my consumer to find me.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you put it in that framework or in that mindset, then it's okay.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if I were to make a suggestion in the context of like it should almost be like a 70-30 split or if you have extra money, you've topped up everything else in your marketing campaign and you're content, then put it into branded keywords.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again my opinion it it's what I have seen has been successful over you know the course of my career but there is value in investing in brand but you got to do it in a very strategic way.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can't you can't do what Google says and and make brand you're top that off first.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then looking to brand which brand you mean branded keywords.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Branded keywords.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly yeah so now going back to the measurement side and I'm not gonna say this is perfect but I would lean heavier on some of those attribution models that even you know if you look at Google Analytics 360, what they have in there as long as you've set it up the right way, I think it is a great way to start telling that holistic story.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not perfect.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's not perfect.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you can invest in other technologies to do that for you.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can get an amazing data science team but we know that it's the it's the frequency that impacts the conversion.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the one tactic alone.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: So anything that kind of shows that peripheral activity and kind of reports on it in some way, I think is actually a benefit to can to uh to marketers and digital marketers and anybody for that for that sense to kind of show that affinity and it actually in my opinion helps create that story or that halo effect some campaigns may create for you that may not have that direct call to action.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: So last click is great to show a like an action in the moment Black Friday's a great example.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: I still think it's important because it's still very definitive.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like someone searched on this keyword clicked the link and actually came to my site to convert there's a lot of power in that transaction or in that in that framework as well but in my opinion like it's okay.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: Any attribution model you can get your hands on, start using it because it'll help you tell that story more holistically especially when you're communicating up to you know executives, leaders and and whatnot.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: And to show how it all works together to drive revenue.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a it's a a bit of a double edged sword because you can you and I have been down this path but like you can show them the numbers and you've got your Excel spreadsheet and you show the like last click Rowass numbers or click through rate or whatever thing is.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: But that doesn't you may be making your own bed that you have to lie in.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because then you have this other thing which is like well we're trying to increase market penetration.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: We're not necessarily doing that through these click things but we want to run a like TV campaign to drive brand recognition and recall in this particular category entry point and then they'll go okay well well how are you measuring that because I see money here that's not money.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah so so what is that what is that why are we even going down this path like I want more money.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: So then you may be setting yourself up for a challenge which is then having to explain other things and trying to convince people that it's valuable and measure and important.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a tricky one within it goes back to how are teams structured right if there's one marketing team it's easier to contain and build that story.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: But in organizations that have decentralized marketing all of a sudden you have each team fending for itself but the revenue is still the same.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: Performance marketing teams are going to be a lot closer to that revenue.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the perception is going to be that they drive more of that.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: When the reality is we know brand activity helps with that and I think again measurement has to come at it from that holistic lens in terms of you know really kind of showing hey here's our seasonality over the course of 90 days we were able to generate all our marketing activity was able to generate this.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just search it's not just YouTube.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just you know the the you single out the tactics.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: And again structure hierarchies the the way these teams are put together will can either be the Keyley's heel of an organization.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's fair.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or it can actually add you know the the jet fuel that you need to really create some amazing programs.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I agree with that V I think there's like the the a balanced scorecard approach if you want to call it that to marketing or to branding and measuring brand across all these different touch points it can include net promoter score.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: It can include things like last click attribution but it should also include things like your category entry points and your mental market share of this particular category entry point.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because and it should include things like your customer effort score like how easy was it for you to get blah blah blah.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or you know what I mean?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's not just one thing.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you're right if you have a team that's all working towards a common goal even if they're not on the same teams but they have a common scorecard and they understand their role in influencing the metrics on that scorecard, I think that can be a super helpful and productive tool.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Media mixed modeling modeling is another great you know if you have the capacity or you have the spend to do so and you get some of those firms to to do that mixed media modeling test.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also a great way to kind of attribute success to different marketing activities.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: But to tie it all together everything what did we learn today Mark?
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_03: We learned I can't do math I think I think that example it gave was 20 cents per person as opposed to a dollar per person.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think if I did it right I might have actually figured out but uh outside of that I mean it was a it's a like I think we talked about brand what is it who owns it and why is it useful it's a really complicated and complex thing and I think that's what makes it so interesting you know brand itself.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think what I learned is that it really does uh from a brand perspective it does in it it does it is owned by everybody in an organization because we all contribute to it.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it is useful.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: One thing we didn't talk about but I think is valuable things like accounting metrics like we just did our accounting course but things like inventory turnover I think is a really important metric that I'm gonna be focusing more on because that speaks to cash flow.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_03: So um you know that's an important aspect of any company.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's not even a metric like ROAS we're talking about or you know brand recall.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a real thing that drives cash flow.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's an important thing to look at.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I suspect good brands have better inventory turnovers.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think making some of those real metrics, the real metrics that drive business, making them part of marketing or having them understand the influence and that I think becomes important.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an idea of here of how do you make sure that the marketing teams understand what the dire business needs are and holding them accountable to it I think is important.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of just kind of venturing sometimes in these spaces of ambiguity that then what does that do?
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: It actually elicits or opens the door for people to criticize and use their focus groups of one to challenge anything that you may bring up, right?
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're tying it back to real metrics, real numbers, I think it becomes very you all of a sudden that position at that table the marketing discipline carries more weight behind it.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: And as marketers we'd not we should not shy away from those tables and those forums because I think that's brings out the best in marketers holistically.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: For me my my biggest takeaway here is what when we're looking at brand and identifying brand, I think we we you use the term mind structures.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: I talked about the emotion that say that product or service may elicit once someone hears about it.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that mind space that it occupies.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me the most important part is brand influences marketing and their ability to drive leads, sales, promotional activities and whatnot.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: Brand becomes like that common thread the common denominator that everything and I I do believe this fundamentally that it needs to live outside of marketing in the context it could still report to a CMO, don't get me wrong, right?
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: But a a brand team needs to be a brand team that can kind of operate won't I gotta be careful how I use the word isolation.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean siloed but what I mean is like giving them the capacity to think about the brand across all the different elements that the company may have, all the touch points.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that becomes important because that influences then things like the marketing message.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: It influences things like the vehicles or the the audience tactics that you look to create so for me it's brand is everybody's responsibility but at the same time it needs to make sure that it has its own team around it operating again not being siloed but in isolation to allow them given that space to think about all the different touch points.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then when we're just looking talking about measurement it's like first of all stay curious for all things measurement.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be defined by one tactic, by one strategy alone, because then as a marketer you're basically predisposing yourself to a certain way of thinking and a certain way you being measured.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: And unless you've been able to crack the uh crack the nut on how to measure marketing and and whatnot and you're come completely comfortable in that, you have to make sure you you still allow for the outliers and explain some of those outliers in the best way you can and that's where I do believe investing in an attribution style model is important because it does account for some of those that grayness that exists in our disciplines a little bit better than just sticking to things like a last click attribution model or investing time just in one platform.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook did generate so many clicks and here's my revenue from that.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like yeah it could have been the fifth thing the consumer saw in that context.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like you know what now I'm gonna pull the trigger.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I like that too V like I think it makes sense because not everybody's gonna have an e com platform.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: So especially a lot of B2B organizations don't so coming up with some kind of an attribution model and maybe this is like the idea of the balance scorecard but you know having something that shows the levers that are driving your business forward.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think that makes sense.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_03: Which requires a lot of collaboration to get those numbers and to get agreement and alignment on.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's hard.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the easiest way to look at that is what does the CEO care about?
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: Marketing should care about the exact same thing.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah you know yeah that's a good call I indeed I'm sorry I gotta jump I gotta get my kids to school but this is such a good topic.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah man an easy one for a an idle Tuesday morning.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah exactly well this will be fun I'm looking forward to doing again we'll have to pick something as juicy as as this for the next one for sure.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure we'll find something yeah all right we'll have a great day you too bye if you like this show please leave a review and even if you didn't we'd love to make this show better and and your feedback will help us do that.