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Parenting Is Humbling (And I Hate Being Humbled) · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Hey, I have three kids. They eat so much. We try to eat real food. We try to cook when we can.
• 0:10
  We try not to waste too much, 'cause it drives me nuts, and it's expensive, and also for obvious climate reasons, which is why the Mill Food Recycler changed our lives a couple years ago.
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• 0:44
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• 1:00
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• 1:07
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• 1:15
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• 1:26
  It is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. That is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. I couldn't remember that, so we put it in the show notes.
• 1:44
  It's right there for you. Check it out. Huge thanks to Mill for sponsoring our work and doing the right thing, and thanks to all of you listeners for supporting our partners.
• 1:54
  [upbeat music] I've always said we should stop saying congratulations after a baby is born and start saying more, "Are you okay?"
• 2:01
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.
• 2:16
  We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like screen time and vaccines. Banned books, and maybe just stop leaving your books on the car floor, damn it. It's not an advice show.
• 2:27
  It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.
• 2:38
  You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, notrightnow.show..show.
• 2:45
  And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 2:53
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat music] We did team snacks for the baseball game last night. Big Instacart fan here. And I think that's just left over from
• 3:12
  my time in LA, where the time to go somewhere and park and shop was three times as much as the shopping, and I was like, "I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna do it anymore." So I was like, "All right.
• 3:21
  Let me be the dickhead who gets some, like, healthy but sort of fun snacks." No one fucking wants them, right? And I thought, everyone's mad at Target 'cause the DEI stuff. Oh. And people are excited about Costco.
• 3:34
  I don't know Costco that well. I also was under the impression that everything was, like, a pallet. You had to buy a pallet of things, and I just don't want that much shit in my house.
• 3:42
  I like my children to know about scarcity. God, they hate me so much. [laughs] And so I had to decide, like, where do I Instacart? And I didn't do Target- Oh... 'cause I guess everyone is mad about the DEI thing.
• 3:51
  Is that something that you're noticing? Have people seen... 'Cause everybody says, "Oh, their sales are way down, and then Costco's are up," and I'm like, is that... It's unclear to me.
• 3:59
  I, I think it's a thing, but also, like, I, you know, it's one of those things where you wanna be realistic about who exactly you are helping or not.
• 4:08
  You know, there's a Target very close to us, and when I shop there, and you talk to the people who work there, you don't wanna be like, "Well, fuck you." Mm-hmm.
• 4:15
  Like, "I'm gonna personally make your job, you get paid less." And I do love shopping by mail from Costco, which I guess there are shipping charges. I'm so sorry. Shopping by mail?
• 4:27
  I mean, I guess ordering online is- Okay... probably what, is what you say. Okay. Sorry. Isn't, we're not- Uh... this is not a Sears robot. Shopping by mail. Okay.
• 4:33
  Yeah, so I write in the card, and I s- write down the order number. [laughs] No, because first of all, Costco's not close to us, but also, I don't need to be tempted by all of the things.
• 4:43
  When I go on Costco, I do, yeah, your, like, toilet paper, snacks, whatever, toothbrush heads. Like, I d- uh, just ordered, you know, maybe olive oil, chicken broth.
• 4:53
  And I should believe like you do about the scarcity thing, but I remember when I had a boyfriend in college, and they had three boys, and their mom just kept the basement stocked full of snacks, and I think her mentality was like, "I want to be the house where the kids are."
• 5:06
  So I kinda do that sometimes. So we just had an order of, like, Pirate's Booty, you know, Goldfish- Mm... things like that. Mm-hmm.
• 5:11
  Now, the downside is that we do find the open bags of snacks everywhere, and I get angry, and I yell, but- I get so, so angry. [laughs] So angry.
• 5:21
  And you'd think either I would get over it or they would do better, and it's neither. No. I wish we had named the podcast So Angry. That would be... Like, is it too late?
• 5:30
  Yeah, Paul was eating fucking barbecue chips, which the smell of it just sets me off.
• 5:34
  I hate the scent of barbecue flavoring, and he was eating in the car yesterday, and he was kinda being a smartass about something, but meanwhile, his chips were falling all over him, and stuck to his face- Mm-hmm...
• 5:45
  like he's two instead of 12. And then he left the bag open in the car, and so I dropped him off at school today. I was like, "Can you take this and throw it away?" And he refused.
• 5:53
  He said he wouldn't be allowed to take it in the school. And I was like, "I don't believe that." [laughs] Fucking...
• 5:58
  [laughs] But it's like- Fucking, it's so brazenThey're like, "Yeah, no, sorry, not a metal detector, but for potato chips." Pretty much it, but not this bag of potato chips. Yeah. Yeah, no.
• 6:08
  So the potato chips will go in the car, TBD. Maybe he'll eat them before the dentist today, we'll see. Yeah, we do Costco. I'm trying...
• 6:16
  I am a hero, give me an award, because we just bought, ordered some badminton shuttlecocks, and I ordered them off the chicagobadmintonexchange.com instead of Target or instead of Amazon, so kudos to me for- Good for you.
• 6:31
  Did you have to think about it? I did look around, yeah. And I ended up buying ones that have actual feathers on them, which I think we probably didn't need to do.
• 6:38
  But yeah, I mean, I'm trying to work on the Amazon thing a little bit. Like, it's hard, but, you know, it just doesn't feel right to get things so instantly. I think you should have to wait, you know, three days.
• 6:48
  So what did you end up doing for your snacks? Let's see. We did yogurt-covered raisins. We did these little, they're like mini muffins almost, but they're oats with, you know, peanut butter chocolate chip or something.
• 7:02
  Like, if you've got an allergy, sorry. And we had some leftover plain bubbly water cans from our Easter thing, so handed those out. They were warm.
• 7:11
  And I had just bought, from Costco I think, fucking like 12 pounds of, like, little Mandarin oranges, and I threw those in. So, you know, no one's excited about it, and they're just in rolled up paper bags.
• 7:23
  But I mean, some of these parents, again, bless them, but f- no, I'm not doing all that shit. How did the yogurt-covered raisins go over? I left early- Okay... 'cause I had to do a Get Out the Vote thing.
• 7:35
  I, I can't imagine they went well. I'm sure they're just in the back of people's fucking cars. [laughs] Everyone will be pissed. [laughs] I'm sure they- Wow. Yeah.
• 7:41
  I- Don't come for the raisins, and don't stay for the yogurt. It's, again- Good for you. Good for trying. You tried.
• 7:46
  But at the same time, again, like I, we wanna be, we're gonna do all this work to, like, be the house where the kids wanna be, and at some point, I'm gonna have to give up on a lot of shit.
• 7:54
  And so maybe I just go, it's not me giving up, it's me transitioning out of this other phase into a more lax, like, entertaining- Being shitty like me is what, is what you're trying to say.
• 8:06
  Like, not caring and- Yeah, yeah... giving your kids frost in the scarf. Yeah. What I've learned from 10 episodes, Claire, is just lower expectations, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Indeed.
• 8:17
  So maybe that's a good transition, unless you wanted to talk about any of the other things No, I think that's good. That, I think that's a really great transition. Well done.
• 8:24
  So do you feel like this is the kind of parent and these are the kind of values that you were gonna espouse, like, before your kids came into your... I know your kids are very hard-won.
• 8:33
  You guys kinda had to put in blood, sweat, and tears to, to get these babies.
• 8:37
  Are you doing what you thought you'd be doing, or how far did you go off the path of, like, how you would be parenting these kids when they did come to show up?
• 8:46
  This will surprise you, but I s- second-guess and interrogate myself all day, all night on all this, all the time, and most of it's like, "You got a C minus today." M- me, not the kids.
• 8:57
  You know, I didn't come into it, like, before all the IVF and miscarriage stuff, I didn't come into it thinking like, "Kids are gonna be easy. It'll be super fun," this and this. I coached little kids my whole life.
• 9:10
  I was the second of four. I was the second oldest of 32 cousins, like most of which I grew up with. I was around little kids forever, and often intentionally. Like, I really enjoyed coaching.
• 9:20
  If I could just win the fucking lottery or give up on climate change, I would probably just do that, because it just makes me happy. I'm a dick to my own kids.
• 9:27
  But yeah, I didn't come in with any assumptions of, "It's easy." I definitely, I think I've mentioned this before, like, I'm glad I don't drink. Mm.
• 9:36
  Because I think I make it hard enough on them as it is, and I don't think that's necessarily about expectations and more... I guess it is. It's like expectations about how it would be.
• 9:47
  It's more like expectations for them, which isn't fair, but also, like, we've really realized, especially with our kids, that, like, structure really helps, you know? Yeah. And so sometimes I think I try to probably...
• 9:59
  Sometimes I think I try to. I mean, how many times can I qualify that? I enforce that j- just a bit too much. So
• 10:07
  I think I'm surprised by that, but I think it's also, like, growing and changing and then not growing and changing and, like, compromising with your partner, if you have one, on, like, who you are and what you're capable of and, like, what you actually give a shit about.
• 10:20
  Yeah, so har- harder, easier, it changes. You know, all that shit. Like, before you had kids and you saw a dad out in the wild who you either thought was doing a good job or a bad job, you know, snap judgment. Mm-hmm.
• 10:33
  What would you tell yourself?
• 10:34
  And maybe I'm curious to know, like, what kind of conversations you had with Dana before you had your first kids about like, "When we have kids, we're gonna do this," or, "I wanna be the kind of dad who does this."
• 10:44
  Do you remember making those kind of predictions or wishes, and could you hold yourself to them? I don't know how much we really actively talked about that stuff, because it went from...
• 10:55
  You know, so we met in August 2008. We did long distance for seven months. My friend dies. I'm pretty depressed and drinking for a while, and I move out there and then continue that.
• 11:07
  And then we get engaged December 2009. Great. We're planning our wedding 3,000 miles away, October 2010. And then after that, it's kinda quickly, "Hey, let's pull the goalie. You can't have kids." Mm.
• 11:21
  And so the aspirational wouldn't it be great to raise our kids this way conversations, we knew each other, like, we're both into arts, and outside, and sports is great.
• 11:31
  That was easier and always at the surface, but we didn't really get to have as many of those, 'cause it, I don't think it probably now, thinking about it, like, felt very relevant, 'cause all the doctors were like,
• 11:45
  "What kids?" You know? Oh. So it turned into, like, just a lot of, as we always say, like, hugging each other in tears on the side of La Cienega. You're like, "I'll take anything. I'll fucking do whatever.
• 11:54
  I don't give a shit." No. And we started to look at egg donors and all that and, and adoption, which, all of which would've been great. We were so lucky to do. But we never really got that.
• 12:03
  And then we had the first one.Fucking, you know, miracle of science, all the money, and they were like, "Hey, if you wanna ever have a second one, you should probably go through that all again right now."
• 12:14
  And we were like, "But he's a fucking baby. Like, it's a baby." [laughs] And they're like, "Yeah, but that one was impossible." And so we said, "Okay." And then third one was an accident 17 months after this.
• 12:24
  All a sudden it was like figured out. Which- Mm-hmm... I wonder if that was easier because we came in with less, "It's gonna be this way," and harder because you're like, "I don't fucking know. We got three babies" Mm.
• 12:39
  You know? So there's definitely been plenty of friction, you know. I've always been m- much more annoying about, like, food stuff and all that kinda shit. I don't know. I'm always the more annoying one.
• 12:50
  So yeah, it's interesting. I guess there were fewer expectations on that front, or maybe there were fewer spoken ones, and because they weren't spoken it was harder. I don't know.
• 12:59
  Like, Jana and I always used to joke that she would, you know, we both do it less, but she used to walk into a room and be like, "And another thing," except- [laughs]... I wasn't part of the initial conversation.
• 13:08
  It was just going on in here, and I'm sure that was a big part of it. Were you guys late or middle, or did you have kids the same time as most of your friends did?
• 13:16
  Like, how many of your peers had been doing this before you guys had kids? So I think that was interesting, too.
• 13:21
  She's six and a half years older than I am, and also, a lot of her friends don't have kids, or at least the friends that she had been friends with for 20-something years in LA, or they didn't until we did.
• 13:35
  So not a lot going on there. Where a lotta my friends back here didn't have them yet because I was six and a half years younger. Or, like, my Navy buddy had a couple before me, so not a lot to necessarily go on there.
• 13:50
  It was a little different, obviously, when they start to go to preschool and shit like that, and you meet other people who are in the same stage.
• 13:56
  So I feel like we didn't really get to a baseline or a barometer until later, actually, when we were like, "Oh, shit, they do this? Oh, we should probably fucking do that" You know? Oh, okay. What about you?
• 14:07
  Well, you know, I always had friends who were a little bit older than me, but I think their kids are so much older that I couldn't really compare what they were doing to what I would intend to do.
• 14:16
  I do remember a woman who had kids a little bit before me, and she was all about attachment parenting, and I found that so annoying that I was like, "Well, I'm not gonna be like that."
• 14:27
  And I knew that was me, I think my witchy foundations, like, this kinda contrary aspect where I was like, "You're telling me this is gonna be best for the kid? Well, fuck you." After you have kids, there's no...
• 14:38
  I mean, there's being witchy, which I think is being honest about how hard kids can be and making choices that center your preferences when possible or feasible, you know, or safe or whatever.
• 14:49
  But after the kid comes, whatever you thought was about you is really out the window. And so on the one hand, like, I did hold true to that.
• 14:57
  You know, what is that movie, Away We Go, I think, with Maya Rudolph, and there's that couple that's like, "We're not gonna put our baby in a stroller. We're not gonna push them away," you know?
• 15:05
  And I was like, "That's bullshit." And like, the, you know, extended breastfeeding, I didn't wanna do that. Natural birth, I knew I didn't wanna do that.
• 15:12
  But that j- is about you, and unless you are a caretaker or work in education or were, God forbid, a parentified kid, it is really hard to not center yourself and not make it about yourself until it happens to you.
• 15:24
  It is.
• 15:24
  It's, it, like everything, it's a constant daily, monthly, and then it always changes lesson in, like, what you can control and what you cannot, and often what you can control, like, you're completely fucking wrong about because some dipshit told you.
• 15:36
  Well- But also there's things you control, like you said, the attachment parenting.
• 15:39
  I mean, when we were in hippie-ass Laurel Canyon, just the two of us, and I remember this couple across the street had a baby, and maybe this is what they call attachment parenting or not, but, like, the mom decided that she and the baby had to be in some way touching at all times for the first year because of electrical signals.
• 15:58
  And immediately we were like- Ooh. "Oh, we're not fucking doing that. What the fuck? Nope, we're not fucking... Nope, that's not happening." And then other stuff got taken away from you.
• 16:08
  It's like, had to do emergency C-section, and you go, "Well, whatever your fucking plan was, it doesn't matter." You know? Yeah. So there was a lot of versions of that.
• 16:17
  And, you know, we had so many babies one after the another that, like, Dina couldn't fucking breastfeed if she had wanted to longer, 'cause we were like, "Guess what? There's another one." [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
• 16:27
  Uh, so I think that's also helpful sometimes, though, where you're just like, "Okay." Yeah, I mean, it certainly starts off that certain way, and then, you know, you get to things like paying for childcare, for instance.
• 16:37
  So tell me about your pre-children. Like, how long were you guys together in whatever version, and did you have those conversations that I guess we didn't re- Well, we had- 13 years later I'm realizing we never had.
• 16:49
  Yeah. We worked together for five years before we got engaged, and then we got married I think a year after that. And then we didn't have kids until 2012. So we spent a lotta time together child-free.
• 17:01
  We both, like, would do, like, a day job and then cultivate our creative sides and our hobbies and things like that. And we, I think for a while were like, "It's okay if we don't have kids.
• 17:11
  That's fine" Until one day, just very s- stereotypical, I was like, "Well, you know, the two of us are, like, pretty fun together. What if we added a new person to our c- you know, to our clique?
• 17:21
  And that kid would be fun and cool, 'cause we're fun and cool, you know?" And my husband was like... And he used to be more about being a dad, and then once I brought it up he was like, "What?"
• 17:31
  And you know, but I am a mean bitch, and I was like, "Well, we're doing this. This is the plan." He's like, "Okay."
• 17:36
  And it, it just makes me laugh, 'cause if anyone watches the show Love Is Blind, I really notice that when people talk about what they think their lives together are gonna be like or what families are gonna be like, it's always around Christmas, and how, like, they're gonna have these big Christmas celebrations and do Christmas cards.
• 17:53
  And I was like, I feel like we were kinda like that, where you think family is Christmas, basically, or just the things you show up for.
• 17:59
  If I could just read your quote in our notes, it said, "Inspired by Love Is Blind, where everyone in the pods think marriage is all Christmas cards and building pillow forts and fucking." [laughs] Yes.
• 18:10
  [laughs]And I was just like, I was just like, "God, I'd be so annoyed at the pillows and where, and, oh, God, what the fuck?" Right. That, that's so funny. Or I'd be told like- No, there was that couple in Carolina...
• 18:22
  "No, you can't use those pillows." Yeah, exactly.
• 18:24
  You think marriage is, like, waking up together sleepy, hi, honey, drinking coffee in bed, and, like, newspapers, and you're not thinking about, like, the shit that's gonna be in the toilet from all that coffee drinking.
• 18:36
  And what about, you know, who's gonna clean up the ink stains from the newspaper? Mm.
• 18:39
  And anyway, yeah, I remember talking about things like, like, my mom would always take me to the Art Institute in Chicago as a kid, which I'm grateful for, and, but I remember being like, "I wanna do that."
• 18:49
  And, you know, thinking that's gonna be like, I don't know what, that's gonna be a capstone or a pillar of your parenting. And Steve said, "I wanna be a chaperone at the kids' school because my dad was a chaperone."
• 18:59
  And he did, and we do those things, but those are such tiny instances along the lines of parenting. And I think all the time about whether you can really prepare someone ahead of time for
• 19:11
  what it actually is to be a parent, and that's not even to say your own particular kid.
• 19:15
  You know, like, your kid is, like, a whole other ball of wax, but just in terms of the admin, the shopping, like you were just talking about, the cleaning, the cooking, like, truly the admin part of it.
• 19:27
  Like, if I had an assistant, like, to answer the emails and do the registration, and that is just, again, the tiniest, tiniest little portion of it, you know? Not to mention, I'm doing an interview right now.
• 19:39
  I'm do- working on a issue for the newsletter talking to women who were pediatricians who then had kids after they were already in their careers, 'cause I was like, I'm just curious to know how that changes- Mm-hmm...
• 19:49
  you know, how you do your work. And this woman I interviewed was saying how she appreciated more how kids don't adhere to the data.
• 19:57
  You know, the data says one thing, but then your kid [laughs] might be completely, you know, they're not listening to the Emily Oster podcast and following on- Jesus... the lines, you know?
• 20:06
  It, well, and it goes from, like, that they don't, uh, know what data is, they don't understand what you're saying, to being aware, to a full-on purposeful rejection of whatever- [laughs]... the fucking data is, right?
• 20:17
  Which by the way, is always changing, and they're like, s- six years ago you told us not to eat so many carrots, you know? Yeah. Yeah, she talked about this, Devika Bhushan.
• 20:27
  She talked about the science between giving kids peanuts before a certain age versus not and what that has to do with allergies. Yeah. A- and I think a thing that,
• 20:36
  like, if I could change culture, it would be to stop letting parents believe that once you have a child, raising a child makes you happy, and having that responsibility confers joy, 'cause that's not what makes you happy.
• 20:48
  And what is makes you happy is very, it's ephemeral, it's subliminal. Sometimes you don't even know that you were happy until later on, you know?
• 20:57
  And a main thing that made me happy recently was just, like, joking with my kid in the car about something, like whether it'd be funny to give our younger son a phone before our older kid.
• 21:06
  Like, or just having a lol about that, you know?
• 21:09
  But the idea that, like, once you have a baby and you're like, "Congratulations," I just remember after I had Paul, my firstborn, and I was struggling with postpartum, and I thought, I, like, invited everyone and their mom to come over to see the baby because I was proud of what I had done.
• 21:25
  Mm-hmm. And I felt like it was really important to show the world, like, my world, that I was the same person as I always was, now just plus one baby.
• 21:33
  And I had my best friend at the time come over, and she didn't have a kid. And first of all, she laughed at me when she saw me. I, like, had, like, my milk coming in. Mm-hmm. Like, I was just a mess. She went, "Damn."
• 21:46
  And I was like, "Well, thanks a lot." And then what I remember she asked me, she's like, "Now that you go for a walk, do you see other moms pushing their strollers and you guys smile at each other knowingly?"
• 21:56
  And I just think of that a lot, 'cause I was like, if only.
• 21:59
  If only the, it was that, if you just, like, immediately clicked with someone as opposed to being like, we're all, you know, like, in the rainstorm together, like, under umbrellas, like, just trying to push through.
• 22:10
  But, you know, s- suddenly getting a lot more work to do does not necessarily make you happy. And I think a lot of people feel guilty about that, that they're like, "Why am I not enjoying driving this kid to daycare?"
• 22:19
  You know? Or, "Why am I not enjoying doing laundry all the time now?" You know? And that's not really fun, for me anyway.
• 22:25
  Yeah, it's interesting because, enormous caveat here, putting aside postpartum and hormones, right?
• 22:32
  Just superficially, and again, coming from the dad side, who has none of those things, and nothing happened to his body and all these different things. If there's dad, et cetera, et cetera, in whatever capacity.
• 22:44
  I wasn't this guy, but I understand objectively why some dads are like, "Call me k- when the kid's three. What does this human do for me?" Everyone's like, "Congrats. Isn't it fun?" It's like, what the fuck?
• 22:53
  What's fun about this? I try to abduct babies every day. I fucking love babies, babies. Give them to me. And it was hard, but I guess, a- and there's definitely times where you're like, "This is terrible."
• 23:05
  And I remember, like, touring preschools in LA, and you're just like, "This cannot be the thing or the way."
• 23:12
  But I would try to find the positive moments in it, too, but again, like, I was suffering s- significantly less, but I do get it.
• 23:18
  'Cause again, people are like, "Congrats, it must be amazing," and you're like, "Which part is supposed to be that?" [upbeat music] Okay, so I wanna tell you all about one of my f- favorite tools I have.
• 23:31
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• 23:39
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• 23:55
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• 24:06
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• 24:16
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• 24:30
  Does it help me build a broader understanding of how it all ties together? Yes. I truly think Readwise will change your reading and your life like it did mine.
• 24:40
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• 24:52
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• 25:05
  That's readwise.io/quinn. Again, it's right in the show notes for you. Just click it.
• 25:09
  Please check out Readwise today, support our partners, and never forget what you read ever again, which is not something I thought I'd ever say. [upbeat music] Because I have shit under my fingernails every single day.
• 25:22
  Oh, God. You know?
• 25:22
  Well, the newborn stage especially, [scoffs] I don't know if Dana went through this when she gave birth, but when I had Paul, and again, it was a huge ordeal, and that was very shocking to me 'cause my pregnancy was very run-of-the-mill, and then I got induced early, and it was, like, terrifying.
• 25:36
  Like, I was telling my son now, I was like, "I think being scared was actually as bad as the pain," like, but just the terror of not knowing what was gonna come, and you might get cut open or not any moment.
• 25:45
  We'll find out within the next three days, and you can't eat.
• 25:48
  But then after I had him and I still had th- this medicine, magnesium, going through my system, which just makes you feel like you've been hit by a truck on top of having given birth. Mm-hmm.
• 25:57
  I was too tired to eat, and this company called Bella Baby came around to our room, and they do these b- newborn photos where it looks like you are, you know, Mother Mary, that you have this maternal glow and you're gazing at the baby.
• 26:10
  And I remember my friend Elizabeth, who was pregnant and me at the same time, she had her baby a couple weeks before me. I remember seeing these pictures and being like, "Wow.
• 26:17
  All of a sudden she was pregnant five weeks ago, and now she knows how to look at this baby in this beautiful way. Will I ever get there?" And you realize it's, like, all tricks of photography and- Right.
• 26:28
  She's sitting in her own shit. She is. And her baby's shit. Yeah.
• 26:30
  And on top of that, I remember this company coming by and being like, "We're here to take your photos," you know, 2,000, whatever the fuck, how much it costs.
• 26:38
  And they put this laptop in front of me, click play, and it's like this slideshow of all these ethereal, beautiful mother and child photos.
• 26:45
  PS, a friend of mine had a D&C the exact same day that I gave birth to Paul, and she was in the same hospital in the same part of the hospital. So just imagine all this happening at the same time.
• 26:56
  And I start crying, sobbing 'cause of my hormones. Mm. And I was like, "Can you come back later?" And she's like, "No," like, "This is it." So like, these pictures are online. Fucking leeches. Yeah.
• 27:08
  And Paul was, like, the most... He was early. He looks like a cone head bird. [laughs] Not a pretty newborn. But again, you're like, "Well, I gotta get this image of me looking...
• 27:18
  I don't know, like I made this thing, and now I'm here, and, like, we have this beautiful picture of us." But yeah, they are fucking leeches, and that image that they sell to you is bullshit.
• 27:27
  If anyone is listening who has not had kids and see those pictures, please know that is, like, CGI. That is- Mm-hmm... AI slop. It is. That is not reality. No, it's not.
• 27:38
  And I understand because of that industry and the societal bullshit why we go into this so misguided.
• 27:46
  I mean, again, it's all fucking Hallmark cards and shit like that, and that's what I think is so great about Witches is 'cause it's, "Let's be real," you know? Mm-hmm. And that's really hard. Tell me how that,
• 28:01
  I guess, impacted your expectations for your relationship. Well, that's a great question, 'cause I think that's another aspect of what I explore with Evil Witches is the ongoing struggle.
• 28:10
  If you were a girl who was raised, like I was, to believe that you could do anything and be anything, and you were just as good, if not better, than any boy that you were in class with, it is a real reality check to realize that people have to get work done, and there's choices that have to be made, and that you can really feel that you used to be an equal in rela- your relationship, that you might feel less than if you...
• 28:34
  Like for instance, you are on maternity leave and your husband's going to work, and that sounds, like, sad, right?
• 28:38
  That he's at work and you're home with the baby except that you're like, "You're out in the world, like, and making something and seeing people, and I am just doing laundry and, like, putting a wet paper towel on this baby's chest to wake him up 'cause he's too stupid to wake up and eat his food," and, and I have nothing, you know [laughs]?
• 28:55
  And you go from doing your work and hustling to, like, doing laundry constantly and never being done, and realizing that one of you may care more about food than the other one, and you may not mind cooking sometimes, and other times it might just feel like you are a cafeteria lady.
• 29:10
  So that's when you get to those fights that I think a lot of us have where, when you talk about who's more stressed out and who's more tired, but- The worst. D- d- don't do it. I get it. Yeah.
• 29:20
  [laughs] More than anything, I fucking get it. Don't do it. And I mean, it's hard and it's not fair 'cause it's not necessarily, like, the husband's fault if you're married to a man.
• 29:28
  There's no really good deal, and I think it is impossible to be completely equal.
• 29:32
  But it is really frustrating, 'cause you don't wanna lie and be like, "Feminism was a lie," or, "This idea that I could be anything was a lie," but the ego check is very real.
• 29:43
  And, you know, there are some days where you ride high 'cause you really did something, and then there's, like, longer weeks where you're like, "Wow, these kids don't give a fuck about me.
• 29:51
  They couldn't care less about what I do. Nobody's thanking me." Like, I, I mean, talk to me about how that was with you and Dana. Did she go through an identity crisis after she became a mom for any point?
• 30:02
  She had this really specific quote at one point where she said, I said, I don't remember when it was. It was, I think we still only had one. Again, a brief period where
• 30:15
  even before we had our second, like, being pregnant again so quickly, and before that doing the IVF for the second one.Anyways, brief period, kind of like our relationship pre-kids, and I remember saying, like, something, hold on, something along, "Do you feel like a m- mom?
• 30:31
  What does that feel like?" And she said, "I feel like Oliver's mom," you know? Mm. And again, I think it's a lot of, again, just from the outside, I was this person six seconds ago, and now I'm...
• 30:45
  would still very much like to be this person, even though there's another person that I baked and is now out and demanding everything from me. And you, my husband, are making it all worse all the time.
• 30:58
  [laughs] And again, that's just her experience. I'm confirming that. No, no doubt. That's not just, like, a sexist thing, like, fucking dummy. Like, I, I mean, the... Claire, like, I tried so hard
• 31:11
  not to leave the fucking milk out, you remember the rules, like, on the counter. I mean, and, you know, I did it very few times, but the rage, Claire- Yeah... when, when I'd- Yeah... fuck that up.
• 31:24
  Because it wasn't that, whatever, eight ounces or whatever, it was what it required. Yeah.
• 31:31
  And what it took away, and that is all understandable, and I never felt worse and never got ruined m- I mean, it was just- That- Brutal, and you're like, yeah, no, yeah, I would fuck it up.
• 31:42
  And again, like, the question of what did that mean for our relationship, you're so far from that [laughs] at that point, and that's, again, kind of what you sign up for.
• 31:50
  But at the same time, like, boy, there are times where ships passing in the night would be, like, an improvement on- Yeah... where we are. Passing, what I would- Right... give to pass. Right. Yeah.
• 32:00
  Instead of she wants to drive her ship into mine and sink it, and h- I hope the water's fucking cold. You know? Like, that was hard.
• 32:07
  I will say we were very lucky to have good childcare up front, and part of that was out of necessity, 'cause she had to go back to work full time, like, three weeks after Oliver was born.
• 32:18
  And I think we've talked about this. She, you know, didn't love being off work as it was.
• 32:24
  It made her feel a little bit like herself, and it kept her mind from going crazy, but at the same time, again, she was running a TV show, like, not a lot of choice.
• 32:31
  They parked a, they pulled a, like, a trailer up to the back of the studio when she was making her show so she could breastfeed. I mean, they weren't happy about it, obviously.
• 32:38
  [laughs] But, you know, it seems like pretty quickly start to do date nights. Right. And those really were a revelation. Even if, and again, expectations, like,
• 32:51
  most of the time, like, staring at our drinks in exhausted silence, that's- Mm... okay. [laughs] That's totally fine if that's what works for you guys.
• 33:01
  Or breakfast or brunch, like, whatever it is, but, like, a few minutes, 'cause here's the thing, like, a lot of the time, and again, very privileged, the baby's gonna be fine.
• 33:09
  They don't need you to fucking be around 24/7. Once you get to a point, like, you can sneak it in, whatever it is. Every little bit counts. But those date nights were really helpful, and again, it was...
• 33:17
  I think it probably did help our relationship in just at least a fortification perspective. But again, we weren't trying to be like, "We're not trying to get an A+ here." Get the hot- You know what I mean?
• 33:28
  Be the hottest couple in California. Like- No. I mean- Yeah... you know, it was a, a shit show. We tried to be pretty good about taking them places.
• 33:34
  We were very structured a- again, like, m- mostly me being annoying about naps and all that stuff. Uh-huh. And we did find it helpful.
• 33:41
  We did try to take them places and did try to take turns, and again, I fucking love babies, so I was always down with that. But yeah.
• 33:48
  I mean, I think the date nights were, like, the most we attended to our relationship in forever. We didn't go on a trip, just the two of us, for 10 fucking years, not even for the weekend.
• 33:56
  You know, maybe a funeral here and there, and that was it. I remember the first trip we took. I think it was without Paul. Maybe it was between the kids.
• 34:02
  I remember being like, it's almost scary how quickly we [laughs] like forgot about him. Like, how quickly we were like, "This is good."
• 34:10
  Can I tell you, because this is gonna really sum up, I think what I thought were good intentions and could not have been more of a misfire handled so kindly on Dana's end. [laughs] I think it was, I don't know.
• 34:26
  So again, three kids pretty rapid fire. Somewhere in there, fairly early, I think maybe between one and two, I remember buying her lingerie in this- Oh. [laughs] In a,
• 34:38
  but, like, in a, "Hey, when you feel good about your body again," like w- Wow. She was so kind. Never wore it. And now I look back, and again, you know I told you how I, like, look back on old pictures of my kids.
• 34:54
  I'm like, "Oh, I wish I was a better dad during that period," and wouldn't that have been nice, this and this. I look back on that decision and just go, "Hey, bud, what are you doing?"
• 35:03
  And again, there was no like, "I want you to wear this." It was like to my equivalent, "Maybe this would be a nice dress." Oh, my God. Wow. When that's... I'm glad you recognize that.
• 35:12
  I'm glad we're putting that out there in the world. That is... Wow. She was like- [laughs]... "Sure." Where did you buy it? Just curious. I don't fucking know. Sunset Boulevard somewhere. I don't know.
• 35:22
  We'd spent all our money on kids.
• 35:23
  Like, I don't know, but it was still just- No, I'm just trying to imagine if you went to a really fancy, like, kind of place or- No, but it was definitely, like, in a bin at the top of the closet- Wow. That's-...
• 35:31
  for a long time. It's no longer with us, and it never got- Yeah... worn, nor should it have. What are we doing here? Don't ever, if there's anyone listening- Ah...
• 35:38
  particularly, particularly men, don't ever buy your mother wife, or the mother of your children, don't buy her something that she has to do any kind of work or effort to enjoy.
• 35:48
  And my favorite thing that Steve does, we, I just had my birthday a couple weeks ago, and, like, he knows now the best thing he can do is to make a restaurant reservation
• 35:58
  and book the reservation and book the babysitter and figure- Mm-hmm... out what to feed the babysitter, so all I have to do is just be there. That is more... And I don't even care where we're going to eat.
• 36:07
  Like, it, it can be somewhere fancy, but also I don't care. Like, just the act of removing any of the planning and logistics and showing me that he is competent enough to- Mm-hmm...
• 36:17
  like, 'cause as I've said, the bar is so low. There's so many guys out there who's like, "Who's the babysitter? What's her name? Where should we eat?" Yeah.
• 36:24
  How many times have I been asked, like, "What should we do for dinner?" And I'm like, "Do you think I-Like I am Yelp. Like you can access this information as well as I can. We've definitely gone...
• 36:34
  And, and again, like things were made very clear to us over time, and health stuff, this and this. And again, like it's been a lower bar, but just, it's just easier. Again, it was, we're basically same thing.
• 36:44
  She's like, "I don't care. The answer is no, I probably don't actually even wanna go out to dinner. I just wanna be home and then get in the bath. I guess you can be near me, but most of the time I don't want you to be."
• 36:53
  Yeah. And that makes her happy and that's great. And guess what? That's what it is, man. Yeah.
• 36:58
  Going back to what we thought parenting would be, like I just was talking about this with a friend of mine, 'cause she is gonna, I think, transfer her kids to the school that our kids go to, and I was- I thought you were gonna say to another family.
• 37:08
  I was like, that's an option as well. [laughs] Her older kid is very smart, so they'd- Yeah... be lucky to have him.
• 37:12
  She was talking about their prior school, and I could tell that she was very conflicted about what she did like about the school, but also why it wasn't working for her kid. And I was saying like,
• 37:22
  the idea of what you want and what matters to you as a parent, it can be very different from what matters to your kid or what your kid needs. Mm-hmm. And that can be a, a huge ego check.
• 37:32
  And I guess, I don't know if this is a good transition or not, but you were talking about how hard it was to, you know, go through the IVS and have your kids.
• 37:40
  And I always wondered, 'cause we didn't have a hard time getting pregnant the first time and not much the second time, whether when you have a kid and something hard comes up, you know, or they're giving you a hard time, do you ever look back and think...
• 37:53
  Do you feel bad, extra bad, basically, if you worked extra hard to have a kid come there and you're like, "I can't believe, like we went through all that," and, and, "This is such a pain," you know?
• 38:00
  Do you ever feel like you should not be feeling that way? I'm just curious of... 'Cause I had the luxury of being like, "Well, fuck you, kid," but also I didn't have to spend- Right...
• 38:07
  like a lot of money to have him come or, you know, I didn't have any losses, luckily for me. Two things.
• 38:13
  One of my favorite jokes ever is a Sarah Silverman joke where seeking to put men in their place, she said, "Never forget your dad came you." [laughs] Which is pretty humbling. It's great.
• 38:26
  And number two is, yeah, we used to feel that shit all the time. All the time.
• 38:30
  First, we were just still in the hole from it, and second, it was just still felt so fucking real, and like the fact that these children were there in any capacity.
• 38:37
  And knowing other people that go through it, you're just like, yes, and you would always throw on, no matter how shitty you fucking felt through the fight, you're like, "Well, at least we've got one.
• 38:45
  At least we're lucky to be here, at least this and this." And it's fair. I think it's part of the trauma, for sure. So yeah, but I think it definitely, I don't wanna say it wore off over time, but you become
• 38:59
  parents with kids. Yeah. You have to forget. Where you're just, where you're like, "I'm thankful, but for also get the fuck out, get out of the house. When I say go outside- Mm-hmm...
• 39:07
  it doesn't mean come inside 10 times to get something. You don't need it." Yeah. "Go the fuck outside," you know? Yeah. So yes, but it, it peters.
• 39:16
  That's like kind of part of what Evil Itches is about, I think, is just being able to like elide the, of course we're lucky.
• 39:23
  Like, we're always, you know, like eternal asterisk, like we're so lucky to have a child who is alive. We're lucky to be able to live in a house.
• 39:31
  You know, like we know that, and it's just time-consuming to say that all the time. But it is amazing. I remember when I was giving birth, Steve was crying 'cause he was like freaking out about how...
• 39:40
  And I actually thought even giving birth, like before I had kids, I would choke up thinking about how emotional giving birth would be, and it ended up being so clinical, long and boring and scary that crying...
• 39:52
  Like the second Paul came out, I like forgot for a second what we were doing. 'Cause I was like, "What is that?"
• 39:57
  And 'cause it was the first time like something new showed up, and the doctor's like, "It's Paul," and I for a second said, "Who?" 'Cause we didn't know if it was gonna be a boy or a girl yet. Mm-hmm.
• 40:05
  I knew, I told her it was be Amelia if it was a girl, Paul if it was a boy. And you know, that had, it felt like that conversation was like two weeks ago.
• 40:11
  And I remember looking at him the next day, the sun was shining in our room, and I put my hand in front of his face to block the sun and took it away, and I could see his little eyes like squinting and not, and just being like, "This is here.
• 40:24
  This is crazy," you know? Yeah. And then all this fucking stereotypical stuff happens where, you know, you have to go home, and you're like, "Can we please take you home, nurse?
• 40:31
  'Cause you're the only one who can get him to eat," you know? Oh, my God.
• 40:32
  We were there for a fucking week, and even then I was like, I mean, I, I kinda get the rhythm of what's happening, but are you sure you wanna fucking... Like why would you send us home with this child?
• 40:42
  Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah. He's not gonna make it 48 hours. Yeah. It's crazy. Like how could you possibly re- be responsible for this? Yeah.
• 40:49
  And it's also just so humbling, and I, at least my experience with the two boys, the younger one in particular, 'cause he just, he kinda does what he wants to do. And I'm s- always learning that lesson.
• 41:01
  We've talked about this before.
• 41:02
  When your kid does exactly what you want him not to do, especially in front of other people, and it takes a long time to stop being like, "I need the world to know that I did everything I could to make this try not to happen."
• 41:15
  And you have to let go of that after a while, 'cause you're like- Mm-hmm... "Well, this is not about me. This is..." I mean, even though it, it feels very personal to me.
• 41:22
  But I think that's a big, a really hard lesson, is just being like, it's not only about me.
• 41:27
  This is an autonomous kid walking out in the world, and the world is also not about me, so the things that they engage with, I can't control that as well.
• 41:35
  I always say parenting is very humbling, but I hate being humbled. So- Mm-hmm... you know, there you go. But [laughs] How much did you take like their early bullshit personally as like a reflection on
• 41:46
  you both as a parent and as a person? Again, like months and a couple years before, like had a whole fucking life as a person that were known for things and stood for things and did this and this.
• 41:57
  Did you ever, in those moments, feel like how dare you do this to, to me specifically? And when did you give up on that?
• 42:04
  I remember feeling kinda sad, or I feel kinda sad now looking back saying, you know, Paul would have a little tantrum or something like that, and we would be like, "We're leaving this restaurant.
• 42:12
  We're leaving this Target," or whatever, and, "Time out." And you know, in retrospect I'm sure if we did that all over again, we'd be like, "Oh, he's tired. You know, he's two," you know?
• 42:21
  But with James, uh, in particular, I think it's 'cause I was a very good girl that like followed the rules and I was very polite and clean, and I did all the things I'm supposed to do.And then you have a boy who you get the phone calls from school, and you're like, "This is not what a good girl produces."
• 42:37
  You're like, "Well, the kid is not my f- this is not an assignment that I turned in." But yeah, getting the phone calls from school was a big one. I remember hearing that they don't nap at daycare.
• 42:46
  That sucks, 'cause you're like, I hate hearing that he is being a pain in the ass to the poor daycare workers, but also, you're kinda like, I mean, come on.
• 42:53
  You got 20 kids in there, they're all gonna sleep at the same time. There's gotta be at least one who's not doing it. Mm-hmm. I didn't wanna sleep when I was that age.
• 42:59
  But yeah, I think a lot of moms of boys in particular right now are, like, very worried about not only their kids being good people and being safe, but also I think low-key subconsciously worried that if their kid does a misstep that it's gonna be like, because you, Mother, didn't teach them correctly, you know?
• 43:16
  Mm-hmm. Even though there's also often two parents at home. How about you? When did you feel like, oh, I'm not as cool dad as I thought I was gonna be? I gave up on myself a long time ago. No. [laughs] I, I did.
• 43:29
  I was just like, it's too much. Like, the forces allied against me here with these three. What are you gonna do? Surrounding yourself with people who just, like,
• 43:38
  because they're in it or they have gone through it, but hopefully gone through it really recently so they haven't blocked it all off, that is very helpful for your, not just, I wouldn't say your confidence, but not taking things quite so personally or embarrassed or ashamed or frustrated or whatever.
• 43:53
  You're just like, it's not just, like, this motherfucker, my kid, it's just in general these motherfuckers do these things, and fucking here we go. And I took it less. I really didn't wanna be that reactive.
• 44:08
  I've s- seen all the versions of that, and, and it just didn't feel great. And I think also probably a lot of it came back to my, like, crazy schedules of, well, it is 4:02.
• 44:18
  He's hungry, 'cause he was, you know, he d- usually gets his bottle at 4:00. And it's like, I mean, sure.
• 44:25
  I always think about how you don't know how to be a parent, and also the kid doesn't know how to be a kid yet, so you both are new at...
• 44:31
  When was the last time you, like, lost your shit or lost your composure around your kids? I don't know. And I am very self-conscious about that, but also I guess it's a bunch of things. Like, I don't know.
• 44:47
  Gummies really helped, because they just chill me the fuck out. I'm more, like, low-grade snappy when I'm tired or- Oh...
• 44:54
  distracted by my fucking existential day job, which is also not their fault, not something they signed up for. And as I've described, Dana's told me, like, figure out how to handle it or get out, in a thousand ways.
• 45:05
  But also I think I've realized, and it's taken a lot of work, and this I don't think puts it on her, because a lot of times she'll be like, "Oh, I can see you're not about to handle this. Great. Get out." Mm.
• 45:16
  But it's much more effective if Dana loses it than if I do. Mm. Because she is- Smart...
• 45:24
  so much, f- first just, like, better parent and person and all of the things all above, but good cop in the best way, not in like the diminutive way. Mm-hmm.
• 45:33
  So if she loses it, "Oh, you fucked up," and I'll just be down the hall, again, like, fistful of gummies going, "Oh, they're so fucked now." Yeah.
• 45:41
  But if I do they're like, "This guy, like, how much longer is he actually gonna be around?" You know? Oh. So yeah, that's the answer. That's the answer. I'm not really sure.
• 45:51
  Again, it's more frequent low-grade snappiness, which- Mm... is not fun to be around either, but it's less, like, explosive. Mm, okay.
• 46:00
  It's funny, when I interviewed the pediatrician, she talked about the term dysregulated a lot, and I was like, I wanna start using that term instead of losing our shit, which is our preferred term.
• 46:08
  But I was like, that sounds more dignified. That's funny. I'm really going in the opposite direction. I think, like, Dana can see in my eyes, like, I'm, like, disassociating.
• 46:15
  She can see me getting, like, quieter the- Oh... worse I feel, and she's like, "Uh-oh." It's interesting, 'cause, like, I have been there with the rage towards all men. Like- Mm-hmm...
• 46:24
  a- again, a, a tenet of witches, I think an early...
• 46:26
  Like, if we had a picture that we would share that kinda summarizes, it'd be like a laundry basket or hamper with a man's clothing next to it and not in it, and just the way that subtly indicates someone will get this o- Yeah...
• 46:40
  and it's like, why me? You know? Yeah. And then you burn with the rage of all of womanhood.
• 46:45
  I think when I get mad, it's often, like, a boiling up of the housework, the feeling of cumulative disrespect, of not being seen. But, like, I think not drinking has helped a lot.
• 46:57
  And also Steve and I, we haven't gone for a while, but we started seeing a family therapist to talk about James, 'cause, God, what was the thing that...
• 47:04
  I forgot what it was, but it was made clear to us that medication alone was not, like, you need medication and therapy. Mm-hmm. And we had a therapist who wasn't working for us, and we found one who does work.
• 47:14
  We found, like, this woman, a school friend, she recommended this woman. And Steve, who I, I think before kids thought of himself as a very mild-mannered person, would, when he really lost it on James, would yell. Mm.
• 47:27
  And it'd be like a thundering yell that was just irritating to hear, but also it'd make me irritated in general. 'Cause I was like, do you think this is, like, authoritative?
• 47:38
  Do you think everyone's gonna be like, "Oh, Dad's yelling. We better..." It was, like, impotent.
• 47:42
  So working with this family therapist, getting on the same page and having a game plan for how to handle this kid in particular, but also kinda all the situations that he would sorta get us tangled up in, helped our relationship a lot that we were speaking the same language, and the yelling has gone down so much.
• 47:58
  And that's good for me, 'cause I'm not mad at him then for losing control.
• 48:02
  And again, I feel like there's this ego involved of everyone's gonna, you know, beware my anger, because th- then, you know, like, Mad Dad's in town. Mm-hmm. So everyone, you know, straighten up.
• 48:13
  And you know nobody cares about Mad Dad most of the time. Everyone's like, "Shut up." No. [laughs] Purely shut up. It could not be less effective than it is, at least for what you're aiming to be.
• 48:23
  It's effective in that, again, therapy's amazing, but it's gonna cause extra therapy later when they're just like, "Yep, Mad Dad," and the therapist is checking the fucking box.
• 48:31
  But it's not gonna accomplishWhat you were looking for. Like, never. I'm O for 10,000 on that, you know? Yeah.
• 48:39
  So, uh, to just to broaden it a little bit as I attempt to do sometimes without being too overt, so you talked about how, how family therapy was really helpful and, you know, in some countries they send you home with a, like, a box of all the stuff you need, a journal and the diapers and all this different stuff, and you've got all this paid leave, and horrified at the suggestion that there's even less of it, much less, like, none of it.
• 49:02
  Much less you lose your job because you have a baby or you're pregnant or whatever it might be. But, you know, there's this catastrophic thing happening where- Of course...
• 49:10
  they're trying to defund as much of Medicaid as they can and use a bunch of different rules to do that, and there's really only n- I think nine states that have not taken the federal money for Medicaid that came with the ACA or Obamacare.
• 49:23
  But Medicaid covers half the births in the US, and obviously this is a time when reproductive rights are threatened everywhere in 1,000 different ways.
• 49:33
  Again, because of a federal ruling that enabled a bunch of state rulings that had been there forever, basically, who were only held back by the federal ruling.
• 49:42
  At the same time, we have this very low birth rate for 1,000 reasons, as much of the developed world does, and i- it's easy to look at our systemic issues that are in part why our birth rate's so low.
• 49:55
  Very little support. All these different things. Childcare's so expensive, housing's so expensive, food's so expensive, this and that. And then look at those other countries and go, "Well, they have the support systems.
• 50:03
  Why are their rates so low? So those can't be ours." But both things can be true.
• 50:09
  But what is compelling and striking about the Medicaid thing is many states still don't cover checkups for the mom after birth, and that's actually when a lot of the maternal deaths happen, and a lot of that is mental health and things like that, where you're required to bring the baby in one week later, right?
• 50:30
  You know? Mm-hmm. And there's all kinds of reasons for that.
• 50:33
  Well, there's specific reasons around men controlling women's bodies and health, but the manifestations of those, the mechanical pieces of those systems are complicated on purpose. But
• 50:45
  I wonder how much you feel, as someone who, again, like, really relied on family therapy and has seen success from it, but the first one didn't really work out as much as you thought and each kid's different.
• 50:54
  Like, let's say, how much do you feel like that can be e- effective for the average, whatever that means, family in the US these days, like, to know that you can rely on a version of a service like that?
• 51:08
  And again, I know the obvious answer is yes- Mm-hmm... of course, but really, do you feel like that is something that people are being deprived of after your experience?
• 51:16
  I mean, that's such a good question, and like, it was just interesting 'cause I subscribe to People Magazine.
• 51:20
  It's one of my guilty pleasures, and they had a feature article in there that I thought was really interesting about this epidemic of kids being expelled from school, from early education schools, because they are not good at being in school.
• 51:32
  And there's a lot of different issues at play in there in terms of kids who are neurodivergent, how teachers are underpaid and undersupported, like, how school system is not really set up, especially, like, with...
• 51:46
  to support kids. So if you are lucky enough to have a kid who is, you know, docile and obedient, talks to the kid, and doesn't just, like, ca- you know, cause you trouble, then that's great, but that's not every kid.
• 51:56
  And so to be able to talk with someone who helps you see where your kid is and
• 52:02
  help you figure out what needs they have, or at the very least just say, "You're not alone," or, "This isn't something that you did," or that, "Your kid is not bad,"
• 52:11
  y- you know, I mean, I'm using that word very pejoratively. That is huge for us, especially someone who is a professional who can, like, help you see what is great about your kid.
• 52:21
  Because when you are a working parent, like, you are just trapped in the grind all the time, and so, so much of it is laundry and pickup and sports and food and bedtime and bath time and wiping their asses and picking up their clothes.
• 52:32
  And so it's hard to take the time to step back and be like, "What a smart kid," you know, or, "What an insightful kid." But even before that, I think of, you know, the first one had trouble latching, right?
• 52:42
  And like you said, you don't know how to parent actually until you parent, and you don't know how to breastfeed until you've fucking breastfed or tried to, which is really humbling and we can...
• 52:54
  'Cause it's the US, there is shame involved in all this, much less, like, it's fucking painful and all this. Again, those are the moments immediately after when the mom, whatever, just needs support, right? Yeah.
• 53:09
  And again, we fail on so many fronts. She's already thinking, "Can't afford childcare. We're gonna have to move. We're gonna have to move next to my parents. Are they gonna help? Am I gonna have to care for them, too?"
• 53:16
  Again, I can do this all fucking day. It's my job. It's the wrong podcast. But how much, like, having s- someone who's guaranteed, like, not only sh- you can reach out to, but you should. Yeah.
• 53:27
  And they're gonna call you, you know? Well, the way we've done... The history of, like, childcare and maternal care in this country is so fucked.
• 53:35
  Like, I interviewed an author of a book called Blue, which is a history of postpartum- Mm-hmm...
• 53:39
  in America, and one thing that stood out is how new that is as a subject matter in this, in the country, which is terrifying. But I remember when I was pregnant, like, it...
• 53:49
  The idea of having a doula or a midwife was pretty, I feel, kinda new at the time and pretty crunchy. We do this thing with healthcare and parenting is, you know, it's very independent.
• 53:59
  Like, even though the ideal is to have a community to help you. Right. It's never been that way and then nowhere else in the animal kingdom is it that way. No. You're on your own, buddy. Yeah.
• 54:07
  And so I remember at the time, like, being like, "Well, that's for crunchy bullshit, you know, attachment parenting."
• 54:12
  And now I, I look at, you know, if you ever watch the show called The Midwife, and they still have that, the system, and again, in the UK where someone comes to your house and checks on the baby and checks on you, and, you know, might help with some housework.
• 54:24
  And I'm like, "If I could do it all over again, I would've paid for a postpartum doula."
• 54:27
  And it's not just the housework, which would be huge, but just to have someone who's seen thousands of babies, you know, and can- Thousands of babies. Every version. Yeah.
• 54:35
  And can tell you, you know, "Here's what's normal," or, "You're normal," or, "It's okay," you know, or, "It'll get better," or, "These feelings are normal," you know?And you trust them because, again, you're number, like, 6,000.
• 54:47
  You know- Yeah... you're number 10 that day. Not in that you're not special, but in the sense that, like, they can quantify those things for you. Yeah. Yeah, I want to know that, you know?
• 54:54
  And, 'cause, like, also, your parents don't always necessarily w- know what they're doing. I remember my parents didn't know how to hold my son when he was born, and I was shocked they had forgotten.
• 55:02
  And my mom offered to stay with me a few days after our kid was born, and my mentality was, "No, I did the crime, I'll do the time." The crime being having a baby, the time- That's healthy...
• 55:11
  being postpartum and- Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. But that's very American, right? Oh, yeah. "I- I'm gonna do this. I got this. I'm gonna get back to work. I'm gonna blow dry my hair.
• 55:19
  I'm gonna write my novel, and I'm just the same as I always was, just plus a baby. And I would do that all over again."
• 55:25
  And that is a absolutely foolish mentality that serves no one, and particularly you or the baby, you know?
• 55:32
  And it's funny 'cause, like, I just saw that the Trump administration is thinking about offering people, like, a $5,000, like, [laughs] prize to have a baby.
• 55:42
  And I was seeing a conversation online being like, "That's, like, for all the wrong people." Like, people who just wanna have 5,000 bucks shouldn't be having a baby. And that 5,000 bucks will cover nothing.
• 55:51
  I think that'll cover maybe a month- Nothing... of daycare, half a month of daycare- Yeah... maybe. Nothing. Um, yeah. So I hope people see through that. That is insane.
• 56:01
  So- Like, I would have a b- I'd take $5,000 to not have a baby. Right.
• 56:04
  And, again, in a moment where a lot of people do not have that choice more than ever, which is one of the leading causes of poverty, is women who have babies that cannot support them or are not healthy enough or fucking anything.
• 56:17
  Here's a question.
• 56:18
  And, again, in a world where, I mean, we're so fucking Puritan to start with, but also again, like, the control of women's bodies and things like that, we've really started to cut back on the depth and the breadth and the candor around, not that we've ever been good about it, but it's all relative around sex ed.
• 56:42
  Oh. And we don't wanna turn this into, "Hey, we're gonna teach you how to have babies," right? Right. "And how to take care of babies."
• 56:48
  But in the same way that, like, you know, home ec is getting canceled everywhere, right? And the humanities are getting canceled in favor of STEM, which is great, except for it shouldn't be one or the other.
• 56:58
  We're just losing these opportunities to help people understand how the real world works, whether you want to have a child or not, or whether you're capable of having a child, it turns out, or not.
• 57:10
  Again, we don't teach kids, like, the kind of accounting you need to be an adult. We don't teach kids, like, all these different things.
• 57:16
  And I just wonder, like, instead of terrifying them in eighth grade at sex ed, like, how do we do a better job of just preparing people for it so they know it's fucking hard, but also- Mm... this is the reality of it.
• 57:29
  So i- when you come around to it, you understand, like, "All right. I've learned a little bit about this." I don't have any idea what the answer is.
• 57:35
  All I know is, again, like, we're pulling the rug out from under ourselves in so many different ways that leaves people, again, completely unprepared for the ages of 22 on. Yeah.
• 57:46
  Well, yeah, especially, I mean, I can't speak for the boys' perspective.
• 57:50
  I, I read an article in The New Yorker many years ago about sex ed, and I think why in blue areas and in urban areas, like, people's kids are sort of more educated in terms of, like, how, you know, not to put too fine a point on it, if you get pregnant too soon, your life is over.
• 58:05
  Mm.
• 58:05
  And I talked about the other women this same age about how weird it is to spend your entire life, the beginning of your life, your sexual life, being terrified of getting pregnant, and then all of a sudden it's all you want.
• 58:15
  It's such a crazy feeling to be like, "If I got pregnant, I'd abort it in a second," and then to be like, "All I want is to get pregnant." Mm-hmm. And I have a friend whose son, they go to Catholic school.
• 58:24
  She was upset because her son, he was saying something anti-abortion. And she was like, "How do I get him to see the finer points of it?"
• 58:31
  And I was like, "Well, part of it is he's, like, in fifth grade or something like that." And like, he has no idea what it takes to raise a child or to be pregnant or how expensive it is.
• 58:39
  You know, let alone the sort of the pie in the sky idea of, like, right and wrong, life and not life, like, babies versus not babies.
• 58:47
  Like, w- the full lifetime and all the pressures that come on you, and a child can't really fully grasp that. But I will tell you, I was talking to...
• 58:55
  [laughs] I, I was going into a Michael McDonald kick last year into my, like, my Yacht Rock phase. Fuck yeah. [laughs] Yeah. And so my sons were like, "Mom's playing It Keeps You Running again."
• 59:06
  And I told them, I was like, "This guy, he got his girlfriend pregnant when he was 13 years old." And I was like, "Can you imagine that? Like, a kid you know in eighth grade, imagine him being a dad."
• 59:16
  And Paul was like... He knows that technically, but he could not fathom how- Mm-hmm... a 13-year-old could become a father. And part of me was like, "Hey, you shouldn't be able to fathom that, honestly.
• 59:25
  I don't want you to, but you know that it can happen, that it does happen." Youngest girl in the US who needed an abortion last year was 10. We were evolved to become capable very young, you know?
• 59:37
  And, and there's some pros and cons with that. And now, because of birth control and all these amazing things, and women in the workforce and all this stuff, you can wait longer.
• 59:45
  You can freeze your eggs and stuff like that. Is it too expensive? Of course. It's a fucking nightmare, the whole thing systemically. But w- we're capable, and you gotta be careful.
• 59:53
  But then, like you said, all of a sudden becomes, "Okay, but how do I do this now," knowing or not really knowing the support systems that are unavailable to you from expectations, from us refusing to even acknowledge a postpartum as a thing, to how we treat, you know, Black women in the delivery room, whether they're Serena Williams or Beyoncé, to all this other stuff.
• 1:00:19
  And I, uh, again, I ask not to bring this down, but obviously both of our experiences were great. We could stay in the hospital for a week. We could afford all this IVF. I mean, barely.
• 1:00:28
  But because a lot of my job is not just righting wrongs or trying to keep the wrongs at bay, but to acknowledge, hey, even before they started trying to strip stuff away, it was nowhere near good enough.
• 1:00:43
  And what are the versions we could do?
• 1:00:45
  Again, learning from different places that are all imperfect.To make it even better than it was before, if we ever gave you the opportunity, because people do need to have something to fight for.
• 1:00:55
  And a lot of times, that requires having gone through a version of it yourself to know this is really what people could benefit from. This is a piece of the puzzle that I think would be helpful. So that's why
• 1:01:07
  I bring all that up, because- Yeah... it's amazing to be on the side of being able to go... I mean, when we were having our third, Dana, she had, what the fuck do they call it?
• 1:01:15
  The fake contractions six fucking weeks ahead of time. Whoa. And drove you nuts, and from all accounts, it's as real as it gets, and they're like, "Nope." Yeah. And we could afford to do that.
• 1:01:26
  Most people are at their fucking hourly job. Again, how do we paint a version of that is so much more supportive- Yeah... is what I'm looking for.
• 1:01:34
  Yeah, no, I think, I think that if we treated birth more like death, honestly, and we treat it as a life cycle and something in which to support someone and check in with them ongoing, and honestly just treat them...
• 1:01:47
  Part of you has died when you become a parent. Like, your old self is dead, and stop acting like that's a celebration. Instead, check in and be like, "Hey, how are you doing?" As you mourn your independence. Yeah.
• 1:01:58
  You know?
• 1:01:59
  Yeah, like you may have worked really hard for this baby, and you may welcome that baby, but, you know, I always compare it to also buying a house, where you congratulate someone on buying their house, and then they're like, "And also, did you know you need a new roof now, too?
• 1:02:10
  And also the... You just got your assessments done." And you're never gonna have ab muscles again because we cut them off. Yeah, [laughs] exactly.
• 1:02:17
  So yeah, I've always said we should stop saying congratulations after a baby is born and start saying more, "Are you okay?"
• 1:02:23
  And by the way, even as objectively as you get, so there's this incredible book that came out last year, a couple years ago. You would love this woman, Kat Bohannan, and she wrote a book called Eve.
• 1:02:31
  I'm gonna mangle this, but the subtitle's like, How Female Bodies Drove 200 Million Years of Evolution. And it's so great, and it's funny as shit. She's fucking great. I had her on the show. Totally have her on again.
• 1:02:43
  But one of the takeaways is, again, like uniquely, not just within mammals, but like within the animal ecosystem, we are horrific at having birth. Like, it is still so dangerous, even in the best case scenarios- Yeah...
• 1:03:01
  that if we even took a step back to do that, like you said, like recognizing it for what it is, just objectively, you know? And then afterwards, like our...
• 1:03:09
  We don't have baby deer that like fucking stand up while they're still slimy- Exactly... and start walking around.
• 1:03:13
  Yeah, they're so dumb, they don't know how to sleep, 'cause they're born like three months earlier than they should be. Their pelvises can't handle, like, gestating them longer. No, they're dumb. Right.
• 1:03:21
  What are we even doing? Let's just drop them off at the fire station and give up. [upbeat music] That's it for this week. You're gonna make it.
• 1:03:39
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• 1:03:49
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• 1:04:04
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• 1:04:15
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