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An Interview with a CEO - Introductory Episode · Profit and Principle

• 0:00
  Darrell: Let me ask you a question, and I want you to be honest.
• 0:03
  Darrell: When you walk into your office, your shop, your boardroom on Monday morning, does your faith walk in with you or does it wait in the car?
• 0:11
  Darrell: Most Christian business people I know would say, Of course my faith comes with me.
• 0:16
  Darrell: If you ask them to point to a specific decision they've made in the last month that was shaped by a specific passage of scripture, a lot of them would go quiet.
• 0:26
  Darrell: Not because they don't believe, but because nobody's ever shown them how to connect what the Bible actually says to the decisions they actually face.
• 0:35
  Darrell: And that is what this podcast is for.
• 0:38
  Darrell: Welcome to the very first episode of Prophet in Principle, where Sunday's truth meets Monday's bottom line.
• 0:44
  Darrell: I'm Dr.
• 0:45
  Darrell: Daryl Stein, and if you know me from grasp the Bible, you know that I believe the Bible isn't just a book you study, it's a book you live.
• 0:53
  Darrell: And today we're taking that conviction into one of the most challenging arenas there is, the world of business.
• 1:01
  Darrell: Now, I'll be up front with you.
• 1:03
  Darrell: I am not a business guru.
• 1:05
  Darrell: I'm a Bible teacher.
• 1:07
  Darrell: My job on this podcast is to take you deep into the scripture and pull out principles that have been tested for thousands of years, principles about leadership, integrity, money, relationships, pressure, and purpose, and show you what they look like when you apply them where you work.
• 1:25
  Darrell: And to make sure I'm not just giving you theory, I brought a special guest onto this first episode who actually lives this out.
• 1:33
  Darrell: Dr.
• 1:34
  Darrell: Peter Stout has spent 30 years in business leading organizations, including the Houston Forensic Science Center, where he is the CEO.
• 1:42
  Darrell: And what makes Dr.
• 1:43
  Darrell: Stout worth listening to is that he hasn't just been successful, he has done it while holding on to the principles we're going to talk about in this podcast.
• 1:52
  Darrell: Dr.
• 1:53
  Darrell: Stout, thank you for being here.
• 1:55
  Dr. Stout: Hey, Daryl, thanks for having me.
• 1:57
  Darrell: Well, I want to start with something that I think a lot of our listeners wrestle with.
• 2:02
  Darrell: Now, as I said, you've been in business for about 30 years.
• 2:05
  Darrell: You've dealt with everything: payroll, difficult employees, competition, seasons where the numbers didn't add up.
• 2:13
  Darrell: Was there ever a moment early on when you had to decide, am I going to run this organization according to biblical principles, even when it cost me something?
• 2:22
  Darrell: Or am I going to set aside my faith and put that to the side when it gets inconvenient?
• 2:29
  Dr. Stout: I wouldn't say there was a moment early on.
• 2:31
  Dr. Stout: There's a moment like that about every 15 minutes.
• 2:34
  Dr. Stout: It's just a constant thing of how do you decide what is the correct path to follow?
• 2:45
  Dr. Stout: How do you balance all of the things that tug at you that demand just give me an answer now?
• 2:54
  Dr. Stout: I really don't care if it's the right answer or not, just give me an answer now.
• 2:58
  Dr. Stout: How do you withstand all of the things that just want you to hurry up and get it done when you know they really need the right answer, not just an answer.
• 3:10
  Dr. Stout: And they really don't want to hear that.
• 3:12
  Dr. Stout: So yeah, it's it's a constant thing.
• 3:15
  Darrell: So what are those, some of those decisions, what do they cost you?
• 3:19
  Darrell: Because I imagine that no matter what decision you make, somebody somewhere is going to be unhappy.
• 3:24
  Darrell: So what are we looking at here in terms of actual cost to you, perhaps your reputation, or to the organization?
• 3:30
  Dr. Stout: Well, so one, it's maybe a little bit unfair talking to me because I'm an unusual business.
• 3:37
  Dr. Stout: We're this kind of strange half public, half-private kind of thing that does work for the criminal justice system.
• 3:46
  Dr. Stout: And we provide answers that very much go to a necessity of truth.
• 3:53
  Dr. Stout: And in some ways, it's really easy for us to know a right answer because if we are uh actively seeking the truth, we're on the right track.
• 4:08
  Dr. Stout: And anything that takes us off of that is is just wrong.
• 4:12
  Dr. Stout: So in some ways, it's a it's a little unfair for us because there's there's some parts of this that are really easy.
• 4:18
  Dr. Stout: But that doesn't mean that there is a constant struggle and tug of do it faster, do it cheaper.
• 4:27
  Dr. Stout: Do you really have to do that much to ensure that it's right?
• 4:31
  Dr. Stout: Or come on, you can you can just get us that answer faster.
• 4:34
  Dr. Stout: And yes, there is a reputational cost.
• 4:39
  Dr. Stout: There is uh a cost to your soul.
• 4:47
  Dr. Stout: I mean, it you the work we do, and again, maybe it's a little unfair, the work we do goes directly to people's lives, livelihoods, fundamentally alters the course of their life.
• 4:59
  Dr. Stout: One of our reports means what somebody goes to jail, somebody doesn't go to jail.
• 5:03
  Dr. Stout: Some of our reports mean do people get executed or not?
• 5:06
  Dr. Stout: Some of our reports mean do people get exonerated or not.
• 5:09
  Dr. Stout: And any result we put out there has consequences for very real humans at the other end of it.
• 5:16
  Dr. Stout: Um and yeah, it can be kind of an agonizing thing making those choices, particularly when you have limited resources in uh a constant struggle.
• 5:30
  Dr. Stout: It's very clear for us.
• 5:31
  Dr. Stout: I'm sure it's the same for a lot of businesses.
• 5:33
  Dr. Stout: I only have so many resources.
• 5:35
  Dr. Stout: So which horrible, awful crime do I work on first?
• 5:40
  Dr. Stout: Because whatever I do first means something else sits.
• 5:43
  Dr. Stout: So somebody else's dead kid sits waiting for me while I'm working on somebody else's.
• 5:48
  Dr. Stout: It's a horrible choice.
• 5:52
  Darrell: And this is where really just a solid ethical foundation built on unchanging biblical principles can really help shape our approach.
• 6:03
  Darrell: Because as we, as long as we view our work through that lens, that can help lead and guide us in terms of establishing priorities.
• 6:09
  Darrell: And also thinking, you you mentioned reports, I'm also thinking about the testimony that your analysts provide in in courts of law.
• 6:17
  Darrell: And I'm I'm sure that many of them face pressures to say certain things or to perhaps not to tell the full story, but perhaps maybe I don't want to say twist, but but but provide their testimony in such a way that it might look more favorable on one side than the other.
• 6:35
  Darrell: And they know I've got my reputation and that's all I have, and I cannot say what you want to say because that's not completely accurate, and I value my reputation.
• 6:48
  Dr. Stout: Yep.
• 6:48
  Dr. Stout: And that can be really, really seductive because everybody in that courtroom has an objective and a goal by design, and they are going to try and use all kinds of tools to entice you to do that.
• 7:04
  Dr. Stout: And it can be really seductive because you want to help.
• 7:08
  Dr. Stout: They are often really empathetic characters.
• 7:13
  Dr. Stout: You want to help victims, you want to put the bad guy away.
• 7:17
  Dr. Stout: But you go chasing down after that.
• 7:21
  Dr. Stout: Bad stuff happens if you don't hold to that honest and earnest objective truth that's what we're there for.
• 7:30
  Darrell: Right.
• 7:31
  Darrell: And, you know, this is exactly the kind of story that I want people to hear because I think a lot of business people feel this tension, but think that they are in it alone.
• 7:41
  Darrell: They they think that everyone else has it figured out.
• 7:44
  Darrell: And yeah, like that no one does, right?
• 7:47
  Darrell: So so let me ask you this then.
• 7:49
  Darrell: What would you say to someone who's sitting in their car right now on the way to work and they're dealing with these same kinds of pressure?
• 7:58
  Darrell: They know what's right, but doing it might cost them a deal or a client or maybe even their business.
• 8:03
  Darrell: What would you tell them?
• 8:05
  Dr. Stout: Oh.
• 8:06
  Dr. Stout: So so I am not one that can easily point at here is the chapter and verse of what these various parts are.
• 8:13
  Dr. Stout: But when you asked me to do this, I was I was thinking through, okay, which which things would I point at?
• 8:19
  Dr. Stout: And there are many multiple places where it's emphasized about humility, courage, and forgiveness.
• 8:33
  Darrell: Yes.
• 8:34
  Dr. Stout: And I, you know, those stick out to me because man, uh getting your ego in the way and thinking you know what's going on, thinking you have something figured out, again, horribly seductive.
• 8:53
  Dr. Stout: Will it it had that has bitten me more times over my life of thinking I've got something figured out and having to constantly remind myself uh-uh, right?
• 9:05
  Dr. Stout: No, I I am not that smart.
• 9:08
  Dr. Stout: There are things afoot here that are way smarter than me.
• 9:13
  Dr. Stout: But then also, and I I I struggle with it all the time of forgiving myself when I screw stuff up.
• 9:20
  Dr. Stout: But it also goes for, you know, we are all humans on this.
• 9:24
  Dr. Stout: You you gotta forgive.
• 9:29
  Dr. Stout: And then the the last one of of courage.
• 9:31
  Dr. Stout: And again, not a not a good one to be able to point to chapters and verse, but one that has always stuck with me, Garden of Gethsemane, that uh actually t making some of these choices are agonizingly difficult.
• 9:49
  Dr. Stout: Uh there isn't an easy answer.
• 9:53
  Dr. Stout: There is a right answer, but there is not an easy answer.
• 9:56
  Dr. Stout: And oftentimes in these decisions, the easy answer isn't the right answer.
• 10:03
  Dr. Stout: And the answer that you need to be making is going to be a sacrifice of yourself.
• 10:12
  Darrell: Yes.
• 10:14
  Dr. Stout: It's just what it is, right?
• 10:17
  Darrell: And and sometimes we may look and take the easy way out, thinking, well, I I've escaped it.
• 10:23
  Darrell: I've made the easy choice that may work in the very short term, but it'll probably come back to bite you in the rear in the long term.
• 10:33
  Darrell: And so it'd be much easier to make the difficult choice up front.
• 10:36
  Darrell: Take that hit, take that pain, but then know that it won't be coming later on, it won't be getting worse because you've made that decision now up front and you decided the consequence is worth it right now for the long-term gain.
• 10:50
  Dr. Stout: Yeah.
• 10:50
  Dr. Stout: Uh it's but those those are not, I mean it's it's simple and easy to point at those kinds of decisions and say, well, here's the easy, obvious choice.
• 11:01
  Dr. Stout: No, nothing's obvious.
• 11:03
  Dr. Stout: And many of those decisions, yeah.
• 11:06
  Dr. Stout: I mean, you can like you can feel a physical pull towards the comfortable answer, the the one that lets you run away when you know darn well what the answer is.
• 11:20
  Dr. Stout: You know darn well the answer is going to be a significant sacrifice to you.
• 11:25
  Dr. Stout: And yet you still need to make that choice.
• 11:29
  Dr. Stout: That is the correct choice.
• 11:30
  Dr. Stout: That is the just choice, that is the appropriate choice, that is the right choice.
• 11:34
  Dr. Stout: And I mean, that is what the courage is, making that choice when you know you are going to have to sacrifice word.
• 11:44
  Darrell: Right.
• 11:44
  Darrell: And I think too that the people who who work in the in our organizations, they would look up to a leader, an admire leader who takes that courage and makes that difficult choice because they know it's not an easy decision for the leader to make.
• 11:59
  Darrell: And they may not necessarily agree with it, but they can at least appreciate that you're not going to be squishy.
• 12:05
  Darrell: You're taking a very firm stance, and you're saying, hey, I know this is going to cost me andor the organization something, but it this is the right decision to make at this time.
• 12:15
  Darrell: And I think it helps to for them to model that too, as well, right?
• 12:18
  Darrell: That sometimes the easy decision is not the right decision to be made.
• 12:22
  Dr. Stout: Yeah.
• 12:23
  Dr. Stout: Uh you know, the the older I get, the more clear it is.
• 12:28
  Dr. Stout: It's like if if I joke with the staff regularly, if what you're doing is easy, what you're doing doesn't matter.
• 12:35
  Dr. Stout: If what you're doing matters, it will be hard.
• 12:38
  Dr. Stout: No question.
• 12:40
  Dr. Stout: Things that matter are uniformly hard.
• 12:42
  Dr. Stout: Now, the tricky part in life is there's a bunch of stuff that's hard and doesn't matter in trying to identify those things.
• 12:49
  Dr. Stout: But yeah, if what you're doing is easy, you're wrong.
• 12:54
  Darrell: Right.
• 12:54
  Darrell: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Darrell: So here's something I've I've noticed, and I'd like to get your take on it.
• 12:59
  Darrell: There are a lot of business podcasts out there, podcasts on leadership, strategy, and marketing.
• 13:05
  Darrell: And a lot of them are excellent, but most of them are built on secular principles.
• 13:10
  Darrell: Then on the other side, there are devotional podcasts and Bible studies, and I host one of those, but they don't usually speak to the language of business.
• 13:19
  Darrell: So there's this gap in the middle.
• 13:21
  Darrell: Now, how have you experienced that gap between what you hear at church and what you face in business?
• 13:29
  Dr. Stout: Well, I run an organization that is a science organization.
• 13:33
  Dr. Stout: It's the language of the organization is scientific, the language of the organization is secular, and it can be really uncomfortable for, I mean, it's I'm I I can be uncomfortable with it of trying to hold those two things of the language of faith, even though they're talking about the same principles.
• 13:52
  Dr. Stout: That can be really difficult.
• 13:55
  Dr. Stout: And I think, you know, in a in a time where everyone laments that we are more divided than we are united, I would hope we can find ways to translate between those types of language.
• 14:10
  Dr. Stout: And it's something, and thank you for doing this of trying to help bridge what really is a semantic difference.
• 14:18
  Dr. Stout: We're all talking about the same thing, whether we talk about it as a scientist or we talk about it as someone of faith.
• 14:26
  Darrell: Right.
• 14:26
  Darrell: And and that is exactly why I built this podcast, because the Bible has more to say about work and money and leadership and integrity than most people realize.
• 14:37
  Darrell: And the book of Proverbs alone is basically a leadership manual.
• 14:42
  Darrell: And we know that Jesus talked about money more than almost any other topic.
• 14:46
  Darrell: And Paul gave instructions for how to handle relationships and conflict that every manager alive needs to hear, but nobody's connecting those passages to the specific situations that business people face every day.
• 15:00
  Darrell: So every episode of Prophet and Principle is gonna do three things.
• 15:04
  Darrell: First, I'm going to take a real business challenge, something you're actually dealing with.
• 15:10
  Darrell: Second, I'm gonna open up scripture and show you what God says about it, not some surface-level verse, but the real context and meaning.
• 15:18
  Darrell: And then third, I'm gonna give you something specific and practical that you can do about it.
• 15:23
  Darrell: Not just something to think about, but something to do.
• 15:26
  Darrell: So, Dr.
• 15:27
  Darrell: Stout, from your perspective, as someone who's been in the trenches, what kind of topics do you wish someone had taught you from scripture when you were building these organizations?
• 15:39
  Dr. Stout: Oh boy.
• 15:40
  Dr. Stout: Um just which part of your head to hit with the hammer?
• 15:45
  Dr. Stout: Um, you know, it's it's it's it's easier at this point to point at some of that stuff, and but I try and put myself back in my younger self who wasn't ready necessarily to hear some of those things, even though probably people had told them to me.
• 16:05
  Dr. Stout: And I think one of those big things is this idea of the linkage between the agonizing decisions and courage.
• 16:17
  Dr. Stout: Um that those two things are so inextricably linked and that you you you just it it is that is when you are making correct ethical decisions.
• 16:34
  Dr. Stout: They they hurt.
• 16:36
  Dr. Stout: None of them are easy.
• 16:38
  Dr. Stout: They hurt, they involve sacrifice, and that's kind of by design.
• 16:45
  Dr. Stout: It's it's it's part and parcel of it.
• 16:51
  Dr. Stout: Um, I think I can hear that now at this age.
• 16:55
  Dr. Stout: I'm not sure I necessarily could have heard that when I was younger.
• 16:59
  Darrell: Yeah, I think for for some reason uh I think we're so conditioned to avoid pain because if we are dealing with pain in a situation, that means that we must be doing something wrong.
• 17:10
  Dr. Stout: Right.
• 17:10
  Darrell: But no, that pain is an indicator that, yeah, this is an agonizing decision.
• 17:14
  Darrell: This this is really hard.
• 17:16
  Darrell: Yes.
• 17:16
  Darrell: And so you're hitting on something uh that I think is a big challenge for all of us, and that is maintaining our integrity when you everything hits the fan, when things are going off, you know, wheels are coming off, everything's going bad.
• 17:33
  Darrell: It's it's it's maintaining our integrity and remaining honest.
• 17:37
  Darrell: And it's interesting because Proverbs 11:1 says that a dishonest scale is an abomination to the Lord, but an accurate weight is his delight.
• 17:47
  Darrell: Now, here's what most people miss about this verse.
• 17:50
  Darrell: When Solomon wrote this, he wasn't talking about some abstract spiritual principle.
• 17:55
  Darrell: He was talking about commerce, he was talking about the marketplace.
• 17:58
  Darrell: And in the ancient world, merchants used to weigh out goods using certain scales, and they would use them to when they sold like things like grain and spices and metals.
• 18:08
  Darrell: Now, a common way to cheat a customer was to rig the scale.
• 18:12
  Darrell: You'd put your thumb on it, or you use a heavier stone, and the customer would get less than what they paid for.
• 18:18
  Darrell: And it was so common that God addressed it directly, not as a suggestion, but as something that he calls an abomination.
• 18:25
  Darrell: And now that is one of the strongest words in the Hebrew language.
• 18:30
  Darrell: And notice the other side an accurate weight is his delight.
• 18:33
  Darrell: God doesn't just tolerate honest business, he delights in it.
• 18:37
  Darrell: So that means that every time you you give a customer exactly what you promised, and every time you honor a quote when your cost went up, and every time you refuse to shade the truth in a negotiation, God sees that and it brings him joy.
• 18:50
  Darrell: And I think as you and and and everyone on your team is as they have to make those difficult, challenging, gut-wrenching decisions at times not to go along with what the pressure is, or to maybe say half-truths.
• 19:06
  Darrell: You're not lying, but you're not telling completely everything.
• 19:10
  Darrell: We have to remember that that is an abomination, but telling the whole truth, as painful as it can be, would bring God joy.
• 19:17
  Darrell: And ultimately, it would bring the organization and you as the leader that same great joy, hopefully at some point down the road, too.
• 19:26
  Dr. Stout: Well, I think that that resonates a lot.
• 19:31
  Dr. Stout: I mean, this organization, what we do, we create, measure, produce the results for the rest of the criminal justice system that are that scale.
• 19:43
  Dr. Stout: And it really has, and I think you've heard me talk about this before.
• 19:50
  Dr. Stout: Um, that what we do moves what civilization is.
• 19:56
  Dr. Stout: If people can't trust the criminal justice system, that's the foundation of all the rest of the civilization's ability to trust and do the work in invest in systems and all of that.
• 20:10
  Dr. Stout: So yeah, that that that resonates.
• 20:14
  Dr. Stout: Um, I tell it ain't easy.
• 20:18
  Darrell: Oh no, and I I tell people all the time, you know, protect in in that field, protect your reputation because that is all you have.
• 20:26
  Darrell: Once that's gone, you are done.
• 20:28
  Darrell: You have no more credibility with investigators, you have no credibility in the court system.
• 20:33
  Darrell: Yep.
• 20:34
  Darrell: Yeah.
• 20:36
  Darrell: So, you know, in every episode, we're gonna take a passage like the one that is read in Proverbs, and we're gonna understand what it meant when it was written, and then we're gonna bring it right into your Monday morning.
• 20:48
  Darrell: Now, Dr.
• 20:49
  Darrell: Stout, as we wrap up here, one last question.
• 20:52
  Darrell: If you could tell every Christian business owner or business executive one thing about integrating their faith with their business, what would that be?
• 21:04
  Dr. Stout: Hmm.
• 21:05
  Dr. Stout: I think there's gotta be something in there.
• 21:09
  Dr. Stout: We've talked a lot about the the courage aspect of this and making decisions, but the other part that has resonated a lot with me is the humility and forgiveness.
• 21:19
  Dr. Stout: That you are gonna deal with people that make mistakes, you're gonna deal with people that you sure think you know a whole lot more than they do, and you are probably wrong.
• 21:30
  Dr. Stout: And again, nothing easy about this.
• 21:34
  Dr. Stout: There's a lot that is maybe obvious that seems simple, but it's not easy.
• 21:40
  Dr. Stout: That the need to constantly be assessing your own your own pride and seeking that humility and being willing and able to forgive over and over and over and over again.
• 21:58
  Dr. Stout: That person that is annoying the out of you.
• 22:03
  Dr. Stout: And even more so yourself.
• 22:06
  Darrell: Mm-hmm.
• 22:07
  Darrell: Right.
• 22:08
  Darrell: Yeah.
• 22:09
  Darrell: And I I think we need to we need to extend the same grace to ourselves that we are willing to extend to others.
• 22:19
  Darrell: Because sometimes the hardest person to forgive is is ourselves.
• 22:22
  Dr. Stout: That'd be me.
• 22:23
  Dr. Stout: Yep.
• 22:23
  Darrell: Yeah.
• 22:24
  Darrell: Mm-hmm.
• 22:24
  Darrell: Well, that that is a really powerful insight.
• 22:28
  Darrell: And I think that's a perfect way to set up what's ahead.
• 22:31
  Darrell: And so let me let me share with our audience here what's coming up on profit and principle.
• 22:37
  Darrell: So over the next several weeks, we're going to dig into topics like leading with integrity, you know, leading when well when nobody's watching, and what to do when ethics and profit collide and how to give difficult feedback without destroying people.
• 22:52
  Darrell: We're going to look at a stewardship mindset that changes how you view your entire business and how to keep going when you want to quit.
• 23:01
  Darrell: And every episode is going to be short, 10 to 15 minutes, because I know you're busy.
• 23:05
  Darrell: And every episode is going to give you something you can use that week.
• 23:09
  Darrell: Not next year, this week.
• 23:12
  Darrell: And here's what I'm going to ask you to do.
• 23:14
  Darrell: If this episode has resonated with you, if you're someone who wants to run your business on something more solid than the latest trend or your own best guess, please subscribe now.
• 23:25
  Darrell: And if you know another business person who needs this, please send them this episode.
• 23:29
  Darrell: That's the best way to help this podcast reach the people who need it.
• 23:33
  Darrell: Dr.
• 23:34
  Darrell: Stout, I want to thank you so much for being here and being willing to share your story.
• 23:38
  Darrell: I know that it is going to encourage a lot of people this week.
• 23:42
  Dr. Stout: Well, thanks, Darrell.
• 23:43
  Dr. Stout: Appreciate it.
• 23:45
  Darrell: All righty.
• 23:45
  Darrell: Well, I hope you have a great day.
• 23:47
  Darrell: I know you're a very busy man, so I mean let you go.
• 23:49
  Darrell: Thank you so much again.
• 23:51
  Dr. Stout: Thanks.
• 23:53
  Darrell: Let me close this out with a prayer.
• 23:55
  Darrell: Father, thank you for every person listening right now.
• 23:59
  Darrell: Thank you that you care about their work, not just their Sundays, but their Mondays, their Tuesdays.
• 24:06
  Darrell: Every day they show up and lead and build and serve.
• 24:10
  Darrell: I pray that this podcast would be a tool in your hands.
• 24:14
  Darrell: I pray that every episode would take your word and put it to work in the places where it's needed most.
• 24:21
  Darrell: Give these men and women the courage to lead with integrity, the wisdom to make hard decisions, and the faith to trust you when the pressure is real.
• 24:32
  Darrell: We commit this podcast and every listener to you.
• 24:36
  Darrell: In Jesus' name we pray.
• 24:38
  Darrell: Amen.