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From Surviving to Thriving: An Interview with Author Tom Madigan (Part Two) · Hangin' Out with Bob

0:07
OK, welcome to “Hangin’ Out with Bob,” a podcast
0:10
hosted by me, Bob Edholm. Thanks for joining
0:16
us, and let's get started. Maybe what I should
0:21
say is welcome back to “Hangin Out with Bob,”
0:24
because this is Part Two of a podcast episode
0:26
with my guest, Tom Madigan, author of “I Survived:
0:30
Living with the Trauma of a Dependent Parent.”
0:33
His book was issued earlier in 2026 by Page Publishing.
0:37
That's Page P-A-G-E Publishing. Chapter 1
0:42
dealt with some of the current thinking regarding
0:44
the causes of alcoholism. Chapter 2 was devoted
0:48
to Tom's family history. It was designed to reinforce
0:51
some of those theories Tom described in chapter
0:54
1, along with the environmental impacts that
0:57
helped contribute to his dad's alcoholism. And
1:01
chapter 3 dealt mainly with Tom's relationship
1:03
with his sister Gayl, who was seven years old
1:06
when Tom was born. But he also wrote about the
1:09
deaths of his dad and mom, as well as his sister
1:12
in chapter 3. Let's get to, you kind of hinted
1:18
at it earlier, let's talk about chapter 4,
1:20
it's called “A Chance Encounter,” and that's when
1:21
you actually talk about Carol. But before we
1:23
get to Carol, You mentioned some guys, some men
1:27
in your life that were kind of like your mentors.
1:30
They were like four guys. Talk a little bit about
1:33
them and how they kind of helped you while you
1:34
were dealing with life. Well, you know, not having
1:38
a dad available a lot of the times. You know,
1:41
and Dad had some influence on me, obviously,
1:43
but I mean, I didn't know how to behave really
1:47
in life, particularly professionally. Right.
1:50
And Fred (Salisbury) was really my first boss and. He was
1:55
the public works director of the City of Columbia
1:56
Heights, and I was the assistant city engineer
1:58
and right out of college. And I was getting in
2:03
trouble with the staff, particularly at city
2:05
hall. And I had a little bit of tone, a little
2:08
bit of shortness with people. Were these people
2:10
that were under your watch? You were like supervisor?
2:13
No, no, no. Oh, just coworkers. I had two people
2:14
under me that I supervised. But these were people,
2:17
just staff people, coworkers. And Fred sat me
2:20
down one day and said, “Tom, it's not working
2:23
for you. You're pissing people off. And you've
2:27
got to change.” And he talked about what I needed
2:29
to do to change. And I went from being this albatross,
2:34
in essence, around the necks of everybody, to
2:37
Employee of the Year. So he was a big help then?
2:40
Yeah. I mean, he turned me around. I still have
2:42
that plaque. I have it on the wall in my office
2:43
here in Blaine. I became Employee of the Year.
2:48
Fred. Okay, who is another? Well, I worked with
2:53
a guy by the name of Dick Van Sickle. Dick was
2:56
a Marine colonel, fought in NAM. He was obviously
3:00
a civil engineer like me. I worked for his firm
3:02
for a number of years. And I just looked up to
3:06
Dick. Dick was just a wonderful person, trained
3:09
as a leader, showed me what it was to be a leader,
3:13
and how to act as a leader. And I took a lot
3:17
and I still, I miss him. He passed away just
3:20
a couple years ago. and I went to his funeral.
3:23
It's tough. Big influence on you then. And then
3:30
Bob Kilgore, I worked with him at another firm,
3:34
an engineering firm. Bob, I had such respect for
3:37
because he was very competent technically, but
3:41
he also knew how to work with his clients. and
3:46
build relationships with his clients. He just
3:48
was really, really good at that. He had a lot
3:55
of influence on me, he really did, in terms of
3:58
growing as a person and understanding that as
4:01
a person. And then there was a fourth person?
4:06
And the fourth person is Bill Harrison. Bill
4:08
was Vice President of Construction for Target.
4:11
I did a stint for about three years in Target
4:13
and Target Construction. I managed the construction
4:16
of their stores around the country. And Bill
4:19
was a guy who just had a calm demeanor. He had
4:23
a plaque on his desk that I just cherished and
4:27
said, “No surprises.” That's all it said, “No surprises.”
4:31
And what he was saying is, don't blindside me
4:33
with a problem. I don't want to hear when it's
4:37
too late to deal with it, right? I want to know
4:40
right away so I can help you solve it. And I
4:44
took a lot from that. He was very personable.
4:50
I think, unfortunately, I think he's passed.
4:52
I know Fred has passed. Dick has passed. I think
4:57
Bob is still live. I was actually going to reach
5:00
out to him because I have a book signing over
5:02
in Hudson, Wisconsin on the 19th of July at Chapter
5:06
2Books. I'm going to try to reach out, and
5:09
hopefully, Bob, if he's around and I can reach
5:11
him, I'm going to. Hopefully, he can join. Because
5:13
I, obviously, talk about him in the book. You said
5:18
some have passed, so it's hard to keep in touch
5:20
with all of them, but obviously they were a big
5:23
influence on your life. Mentors, you called them.
5:25
Yeah, I mean, Dick and I stayed close up until
5:28
his death. In fact, in a couple of weeks, I'm
5:31
actually going out to the Minnesota Arboretum with his widow.
5:35
Sandee and I are going to go have lunch, and they
5:38
have a plaque that they've mounted at the Circle
5:42
of Donors, for my sister. Her name is on a plaque,
5:45
and I have not seen it in person. So I want to
5:49
go out there and see that and honor her by going
5:54
out to that. And then they also, the church,
5:58
Mount Olivet, they did an indoor atrium at the
6:03
church. And there was a plaque there with my
6:06
sister's name on as well. Like I said, she had
6:09
quite a bit of money and she donated that money
6:11
to both of those organizations. And I helped
6:16
put that all together. Again, that's what other
6:19
friends have said, you know, why are you doing
6:21
all this? That's who I am. I just don't know
6:24
how else to behave. I think it's good you did
6:25
that. Well, let's talk about the chapter entitled
6:31
“A Chance Encounter.” Let's talk about Carol. Is
6:33
that not her real name? No. Okay, I didn't think
6:35
so. Okay, but just tell, set up the story how
6:38
you were on a flight, right? Yeah, I was heading
6:41
from Phoenix to Houston, going up to Pittsburgh.
6:44
And I was working for an organization. It was
6:47
a volunteer thing called ABED, Accreditation
6:49
Board for Engineering and Technology. And the
6:52
University of New Mexico had set me up with that
6:55
and asked me to apply. They do accreditation
6:58
for engineering programs around the world. They're,
7:01
like, in 42 countries. They're out of Baltimore,
7:04
Maryland. They asked me to apply, and it's a lot
7:07
of training. I went through all the training.
7:09
Made it through the training and I went around
7:12
the country and I evaluated the programs for
7:16
civil engineering at these universities. So I
7:19
was going to do University of Pittsburgh. Okay,
7:21
so you're going to Pittsburgh. Yeah, so I'm on the plane,
7:24
and it's a 737. I fly Southwest a lot, obviously
7:27
in the Southwest. Right. I fly them a lot and, of
7:30
course, I have a Southwest credit card, all
7:31
that stuff. Yeah. To earn points and, and I usually
7:35
like to sit in that, you know, there's a two -seat
7:37
kind of exit row seat. Yeah, yeah, legroom. I
7:41
do that. Yeah, so I get on the plane and there's
7:46
a woman sitting there on the aisle, but the window
7:49
portion, you know, and there's still the space
7:51
next to the window, but it's like the middle
7:54
seat. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. So
7:56
I asked her if I could sit down and she said,
7:59
sure. And I just struck up a conversation with
8:01
her and I asked her what she was doing. And she
8:03
said, well, I'm just coming back from San Diego.
8:05
She goes, “I was in a program down there to help
8:09
me stop enabling my drug addicted son,” who was
8:13
like 20, I don't know, 24, 25 years old. And
8:17
she said, “You know, I'm bailing him out of jail
8:19
and, you know, doing stuff.” And she goes, “I got
8:21
to stop it.” And she goes, you know, she goes
8:24
and we introduce each other and she goes, Tom,
8:26
she goes, I'm an alcoholic myself. Yeah. And
8:30
she goes, my mother was an alcoholic. Okay. So
8:33
we got struck up the conversation and that's
8:36
when she started sharing some things with me
8:38
about her situation and talked about me and my
8:42
situation. And, you know, she identified to me,
8:45
she goes, “Tom, you're, you're an alcoholic.” And
8:48
I said, well, yeah, but I don't. Is that the first
8:51
time anybody ever said that to me. You're an,
8:53
you're an alcoholic. And I said, well, she goes,
8:57
you have the personality. You have the personality.
9:01
And she goes, your brain works really fast, doesn't
9:04
it? You process things really, really fast. And
9:08
you don't have patience for anyone that's not
9:10
staying up with you, right? And I go, yeah. And
9:14
she goes, you've hurt a lot of people because
9:16
of it, haven't you? That hit home. Yeah, right.
9:19
Because it's the truth. My brain, I'm like two
9:23
steps ahead a lot of times with people. Because
9:26
other people are a little slower in processing
9:28
and thinking through things. I just calculate
9:32
it out. And I was always really good at math.
9:34
I'm an engineer. I was always really good at
9:36
math. That's not necessarily good. It can be
9:40
good. You know, there can be good things with
9:41
that, but there's also negative with that. And
9:44
she said, you know, you have those traits and
9:47
you have to recognize that. And she goes, when
9:49
you put someone else down, you're lowering yourself
9:52
below them. And that really hit me. How true
9:57
is that? Yeah. Was this a direct flight? I mean,
10:01
did you go from Phoenix to... No, no, I went
10:03
to Houston and she was living outside of Houston.
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So she was heading home. Okay, and then I took
10:08
another flight from Houston. Okay, there's, Southwest
10:11
doesn't have a lot of direct flights, right?
10:13
Unless it's a short hub, you know, like you're
10:16
going from Phoenix to LA or you know, whatever,
10:18
Vegas or whatever. Albuquerque, that kind of
10:21
thing. Yeah. Well, the reason I ask was, I mean,
10:23
were you guys basically talking from the time?
10:24
We never we never stopped, we never
10:27
stopped talking. And it was like an hour-and-
10:29
A-half flight. But a chance encounter sitting
10:31
with someone in the in the exit aisle. Yeah,
10:34
and she, and she talked about the sugar and she
10:37
talked about, you know. What was her training?
10:39
She was a teacher. She was a teacher, and she
10:41
lost her job because of her drinking. Yeah. And
10:44
lost her first marriage because of it. She was
10:47
married for 16 years to another guy. Yeah. And
10:49
she'd been sober for about 16 years. God bless
10:52
her. She'd stayed. And it's interesting because
10:54
she was drinking Diet Coke and lot of Diet Coke
10:59
and she came on with a big 20-ounce bottle of
11:02
Diet Coke and she ordered, Bob, three or four other
11:05
cans of Diet Coke on an hour-and-a-half flight.
11:08
She finished all that. Okay, and she noticed
11:11
that I was noticing that. And she looks and goes,
11:14
“Yeah, I've talked to my husband about that. I
11:17
need to break myself of this.” Yeah, she switched
11:20
that addiction. Yeah, from alcohol to Diet Coke.
11:24
Yeah, and you know, that's not sugar. No. But
11:29
it's aspartame. Yeah. So yeah, it was interesting
11:34
that she had changed to another addiction. Yeah.
11:38
In a sense. But she was just a special person.
11:42
Yeah. And she talked about how she would go to
11:46
the grocery store in the mornings and buy her
11:49
booze. And then she would buy a pack of toilet
11:53
paper. Along with the booze. And she said, “Tom,
11:57
I filled up an entire spare bedroom with packs
12:00
of toilet paper.” She said, “It's ridiculous, but
12:04
that's what I was doing.” And she goes, “And do
12:07
you think that the people that were checking
12:09
me out didn't know what the hell was going on?”
12:12
Because she was there every day. She was drinking
12:14
a fifth of booze and a case of beer. No, it was
12:20
two, take that back, it wasn't booze. It was
12:23
two bottles of wine and a case of beer per day.
12:26
Herself? Yeah. And she's what, about five feet
12:29
tall? She was about 5’2. And I look at
12:33
her and I go, how the hell did you do that? And
12:35
she goes, “Well, I peed a lot.” Well, yeah. And
12:39
it wasn't doing her liver any favors either,
12:41
was it? No, she talked about a woman she was
12:42
in treatment with. How old was she, do you guess?
12:44
I'm gonna guess she was probably in her 50s,
12:47
maybe late 50s. Okay, wow. She was in treatment
12:50
with a woman that I wrote about in the book, that
12:53
she would wear different wigs. She had her booze
12:55
delivered to the house. Oh. And she put a different
12:57
wig on every time the delivery person would come
12:59
to the door. Oh my gosh. Like somehow that's
13:01
gonna matter. Oh man. That's the alcohol. My
13:06
dad, Bob, did not want to drink. He was sick
13:10
with the disease. It wasn't him. He didn't want
13:13
to do that. He tried very hard. He went to treatment
13:16
six times to try to overcome it. It killed him.
13:19
It says that on his death certificate. He died
13:22
from alcoholism. He didn't want to drink. It
13:26
wasn't a social thing for him. He drank at home.
13:29
He'd hide it. When we sold the house, we found
13:33
probably a dozen bottles of fifths of whiskey.
13:35
He drank a fifth straight out of the bottle every
13:37
day. Wow. Every day. And we'd find these bottles
13:41
around the house hidden. And with a little bit
13:44
left in there, most of them were empty. My sister
13:46
and I, when we sold the house, it was crazy.
13:50
So did you ever, was that the one and only time
13:54
you ever spoke to Carol? I mean, you didn't exchange
13:57
business cards? No, did not change anything.
13:59
No, that was it. She struck me and I don't know
14:03
if she ever hears about my book, but she needs
14:05
to know she made a difference in my life. It really
14:07
did. Interesting, man. Well, the next chapter
14:12
in your book is, this is the fifth chapter, it's
14:15
called “My Trauma,” and you described about 15
14:18
or so different events, and we're not going to
14:20
go through all those now, but was there one in
14:22
particular that you kind of wanted to mention
14:25
that probably had the most impact on you as you
14:28
were growing up, or that had a big impact? Well,
14:32
you know, I think, you know, I've witnessed somebody
14:34
dying. There was a guy that had a heart attack.
14:36
I was out playing with a buddy on his grandmother's
14:41
front step. And he came out of the side of his
14:44
house and dropped dead right there. And you know,
14:46
that, those kinds of things. How old were you
14:48
when that happened? Oh gosh, I was probably 12,
14:51
13, something like that. You know, just seeing
14:54
that, you know, and we screamed at, you know, my buddy
14:57
Scott's grandmother to call the police or whatever,
15:01
and they weren't able to revive him. He didn't
15:03
make it. Sad. And I've had a heart attack myself.
15:08
Four years ago, I had a heart attack. I had a
15:09
heart attack and then my sister, like four months
15:13
later, I'm in the middle of cardiac rehab, and
15:15
my sister died of a heart attack and, of course,
15:17
my dad died of a heart attack. So I have cardiovascular
15:19
disease. So that's... Another hereditary thing
15:24
that I'm dealing with, but at any rate, that was
15:27
that was impactful We had a neighbor’s house blow
15:31
up. Oh Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In fact one of my classmates,
15:36
you know, I'm setting up this book, I'm doing
15:39
a book signing down in my hometown at their Art
15:42
Center, Waseca Art Center, on July 11th. Mm
15:45
-hmm And a lot of my classmates are helping me.
15:48
They're putting the word out, and one of them,
15:50
through Facebook message, reached out to me and
15:52
he goes, I remember that. His dad was the county
15:54
sheriff. And he said, “I was there with my dad
15:58
at that scene.” And it was one of my mom's best
16:01
friends that died. What happened, was it gas?
16:04
Well, yeah, the dad was working on a riding lawnmower,
16:08
and they had propane tanks in the garage. And
16:12
somehow the mower got loose and smashed into
16:16
the propane tank and it exploded. I don't quite
16:20
know whether the blade cut into it or what, Bob.
16:23
It exploded and they had one son, Dean, and his parents
16:28
went out the back and the son went through the
16:31
Busted-out windows out the front, and they thought
16:34
he was still inside and the mom ran back in.
16:39
And the dad had cut off one of his fingers trying
16:44
to stop the running lawnmower. Oh my gosh. So
16:47
he's, you know, missing a finger, bleeding, and
16:49
he's trying to control and stop her. He's not
16:51
able to do that. And, you know, she wrestles
16:54
him away, goes in the house and dies. Oh, and
16:59
that that was hard. Yeah, that was really hard.
17:02
And again, you were a kid when this happened,
17:03
right? Yeah, it was actually kind of funny. It's
17:06
funny. Not in the sense. Yeah, it's a terrible
17:08
scene, but I'm going to the bathroom when it
17:12
exploded. Oh, geez. Yeah. And in our bathroom.
17:16
We just had the one bathroom upstairs and it
17:19
had a window and, you know, I peed all over.
17:23
Well, sure. Yeah. You know, like, oh, yeah, sure.
17:26
And I look out the window and I see the flames
17:28
already. You know, I mean, it was almost immediate.
17:30
How far is this from your house? Oh, gosh. It
17:32
was 300 to 400 feet. They were on the corner
17:37
and across would have been through the backyards,
17:40
kind of diagonal through the backyards. That's
17:42
very close. Really close, yeah. That's traumatizing.
17:44
They had a hand crank old telephone, had a handle.
17:49
That crank ended up in our neighbor's yard that
17:54
was right through the backyard of us. It blew
17:57
all the way across like three homes to there.
18:01
That's how much of a big explosion it was. Yeah,
18:04
those are traumatic experiences, for sure. Things
18:07
you don't forget. If you would, Dog, I want
18:11
you to read from your book. There's an event
18:13
that happened with you and your dad after you
18:17
registered for pre-engineering courses at Winona—
18:20
Winona State University. This would have been,
18:22
what, 73 when you were a senior in high school?
18:24
Yeah. Okay, okay. Well, it would have been the
18:26
spring of... 74, 74. Oh, yeah, because you started
18:31
in the fall of 74. So it would have been a spring
18:33
of 74. “Mom went with me to Winona. When we got
18:37
back home, Mom made dinner. Of course, Dad was
18:40
drunk. He looked at me at dinner and said, ‘Why
18:42
are you bothering to go to college? You will
18:44
never make it. You're not good enough.’ I got
18:47
up from the table and said, ‘Outside.’ He took
18:50
a swing at me in the backyard and broad daylight.
18:53
I blocked it and punched him and returned on
18:56
the side of the face, knocking him down. He could
18:58
barely stand up to start with. Mom did not speak
19:02
to me for a week. Her embarrassment that the
19:04
neighbors might have seen it and that I had taken
19:07
advantage of a drunk, I guess, upset her. Dad
19:10
never had an issue with it. Remember, he was
19:13
a boxer as a kid and he got in fights a lot as
19:17
a young man. How much he remembered of the incident
19:19
when he sobered up was also debatable. He had
19:22
a big bump on his forehead from where I'd hit
19:25
him for a few days.” Wow. So did your dad, and
19:30
you ever discuss that? No. Did this happen? No,
19:34
nothing was ever discussed. He ever wondered
19:35
how he got the bump on his forehead? Well, he
19:39
continued to drink. And then how long before
19:42
your mom did finally speak to you? It was about
19:44
a week. She did understand, right? You don't
19:49
hit your parents? Yeah, pretty much. That was
19:53
the only physical encounter. I called him outside.
19:58
He didn't call me outside. I called him outside.
20:01
And I didn't take the first swing. He did. And
20:04
I was defending myself. But I could have just
20:07
blocked him and left it alone, but I punched
20:09
him back. There was some anger there. Yeah. Thanks
20:16
for sharing that, because that was when I first
20:19
read it. I thought, “Wow!” Chapter 6 was an interesting
20:25
one. It's the longest title of all your chapters.
20:28
It's “Personality Traits of Adult Children of
20:30
Alcoholics.” And then in parentheses, it's “ACOA.”
20:33
Is it pronounced “A-C-O-A,” or is it an acronym like
20:36
Uh-KOH-uh? I mean, how did it? Do you know? It's
20:38
A-C-O-A, I believe. OK, OK. Interesting. I thought
20:41
it was interesting because you listed a bunch
20:42
of different parts about that as well. But how
20:45
did your childhood trauma impact you, not only
20:47
as a child, but as an adult? Well, there's a
20:50
lot of issues there, obviously. I had a hard
20:53
time with self-esteem, particularly growing
20:56
up and into young adulthood. I didn't really
21:00
date in high school at all. I did have a date
21:02
the day I graduated. She was a really wonderful
21:06
person that, she was younger than me. We went
21:11
out for a date that night after my graduation
21:14
party. But I just never felt comfortable in my
21:18
own skin. And it's hard because my dad would
21:23
pass out in his easy chair in the living room.
21:27
Snoring, he smoked. He could have fallen asleep
21:31
when he'd gone in the bedroom. we could have
21:33
closed the door. No, no. So it was hard to bring
21:35
people over. I just couldn't bring people. It
21:37
didn't feel comfortable. Could have, but it would
21:39
have been, in my mind, embarrassing. Oh, of course.
21:41
For my sister, too, and my mom. So didn't have
21:45
a lot of that going on. You know, my buddies
21:47
would come around. They'd live in the neighborhood.
21:49
We'd play outside. Right. And there were, obviously,
21:52
my dad wasn't drunk all the time. No, no, no.
21:53
There were times where, you know, there's a lot
21:55
of my buddies like my dad, like I did. I liked
21:58
my dad. But, you know, he was sick. Right. That
22:02
whole thing, it was just hard to have and feel
22:06
comfortable around relationships. I didn't have
22:10
a lot of confidence. I cried easy, because I
22:14
would get upset when people would kid me or mock
22:17
me, and I was called Tom Crier and nicknames.
22:22
And that was hurtful. And I lashed out by acting
22:26
the same way, which is really poor on my part.
22:30
showed immaturity on my part, poking fun of others
22:33
when, you know, I was being poked fun of. And,
22:36
you know, I didn't, and still to this day, don't
22:39
have a lot of patience. I lack patience. Like
22:43
I said, my brain works really fast. And so I
22:45
don't have a lot of patience for people that
22:47
aren't keeping up with me. That's not healthy
22:50
either, obviously. It was hard for me to get
22:55
close to people. You're always a little standoffish
22:59
and not sure how much you want to share. Obviously,
23:03
this book is cathartic for me because it really
23:05
opened up in terms of some of the things that
23:08
have gone on in my life. A lot of my buddies
23:12
had no idea. No idea of the stuff that I went
23:15
through. They didn't even know my dad drank.
23:19
Some of the guys didn't know. They talked about
23:22
that. Those are things that I think have carried
23:25
me forward. in my life and I've worked really
23:28
hard. I show a lot of empathy for people. I think
23:33
that's a positive. I do care about others, and
23:37
others' feelings a lot because of what I've been
23:40
Through, and I continue to be that way. I tend
23:43
to put others first above myself, and that can
23:46
be good and bad. I tend to think it's good, but
23:49
that's kind of my personality, and I get angry
23:56
at times. I get frustrated with myself. It's not
23:59
so much I get angry like with you, Bob. I get
24:02
angry with myself, like with golf or basketball.
24:05
Well, I can relate to that. Yeah. But you know
24:08
what I'm saying is, I get mad. I make a bad shot
24:11
or whatever and, you know, slam a club down or,
24:15
you know, swear or something like that. I'm doing
24:18
less and less of that at 70. You know, my counseling
24:21
helped a lot in dealing with that, that I did
24:23
when I was 40. But that's something that's still
24:27
There, and it's hard for me. I recognize it, and
24:31
I know kind of the steps for me to try to control
24:33
that, but it's there. Well said, well said. I
24:37
want to kind of balance things out a little bit.
24:39
We talked about the trauma, but that's not the
24:42
whole story. It wasn't traumatic 24-7 throughout
24:46
your life. No, not at all. Talk about some of
24:48
the good times you had with your dad. I mean,
24:51
what'd you guys do together? Happy memories?
24:54
Yeah, you know, Dad loved to fish. And he had
24:58
a good friend. It was my aunt and uncle's brother,
25:02
Jim, that had a place up on Fishtrap Lake, up
25:08
towards Motley area, Lincoln. Minnesota, and we'd
25:12
go out fishing with them, him and his wife. Those
25:17
were good memories. My dad lost a job at the
25:21
railroad. He was fired because he was drunk, and
25:24
he was in a union, the Brotherhood union of the railroad.
25:32
He got reinstated after a couple years because
25:35
he had approved sobriety and he was sober for
25:37
two years. He ended up working as a counselor.
25:41
My mom's sister, husband, and their son had two
25:45
rehabilitation centers. One in Pine City, Minnesota
25:48
and the other was in Park Rapids. And the Pine
25:50
City one now, I think, is a Hennepin County treatment
25:53
facility, I believe. Okay, okay. But they still have
25:56
the one in Park Rapids. And he was up there?
25:59
Yeah, my dad was working up at the one at Park
26:00
Rapids. You know, we needed a job. You know,
26:03
my dad needed a job. And so he was working for
26:06
them and did counseling up there. And those are
26:09
some great memories. Yeah, absolutely. He and
26:11
I would, there was a trout stream right there
26:14
that ran through the property in the Fifth Crow
26:15
Wing Lake. And we'd go trout fishing and, one
26:20
time, he and I picked like 17 ticks off of us,
26:23
because there was weeds there while we were fishing,
26:25
and I don't know how that is. You know, the showy
26:27
lady’s slipper was blooming right along the trout
26:29
stream there, and there was a really cool place. It's
26:31
such a beautiful place, it really is. It was
26:34
actually owned originally by the Catholic Church,
26:37
and it was a treatment facility for alcoholic
26:40
priests. Back when my uncle bought it, and cousin
26:46
bought it from the Catholic Church. A couple
26:50
of the priests who were alcoholics stayed on.
26:54
As counselors too? His counselors. Oh wow. Yeah,
26:56
they stayed on. Father Dick was just a super
26:58
person. He had a parish in Rochester. He said
27:02
Sunday night I'd go out with parishioners. He
27:04
was still drinking, and they bring him a cup of coffee
27:09
and it just had whiskey in it. Oh wow. How much
27:13
did the prisoners realize that was going on?
27:14
I'm not sure. I'm not sure he knew either, but
27:17
yeah. So that was up in, what was it? Park Rapids.
27:22
Yeah it was actually it was between Nevis and
27:25
Park Rapids, up on Highway 34. Okay up in northern Minnesota. Still
27:28
there. Beautiful place. Well, thanks for sharing
27:31
that about your dad. Chapter 7 now, this
27:36
was entitled “Survival and Moving Forward.” This
27:39
chapter is about how you moved forward, and you
27:41
talked about how you found Sandee, your wife.
27:44
Yeah. A blessing. Whom you called her “the love
27:46
of your life.” Still is. And like you said, you're
27:48
going to be married for 40 years this year, later
27:50
this year. Yeah, August. You raised two kids
27:53
and got three grandkids now. Yeah, 12, 7, and
27:56
4, all girls. Yeah. So that was kind of a hopeful
28:01
chapter to read, you know, just moving forward.
28:03
So talk a little bit about that, just why that
28:05
was important to include that. Well, one of my
28:09
hopes of this book, and the reason, you know,
28:11
obviously honoring my mom's, my promise to her.
28:14
Right. I'm hoping that it will help others that
28:18
are dealing with similar circumstances or have
28:20
dealt with similar circumstances in their life,
28:22
that you can survive it, you can move forward.
28:25
You can have success personally and professionally.
28:28
And I've had a lot of success professionally.
28:30
I've been board chairs in different organizations.
28:34
I've won awards. I've had great careers. I've
28:37
been a university professor. I've done a lot
28:40
of good things. And as you mentioned, Bob, I've
28:44
been married for 40 years. I've got two wonderful
28:47
kids, a stepdaughter and my son, Josh, whom I adore.
28:51
They're both wonderful people. A credit to society.
28:55
That's incredibly, just like with your daughter.
28:58
They're wonderful people, and that's incredibly
29:02
important. All the problems I've had, all the
29:06
issues that I've dealt with as a child of an
29:09
alcoholic parent, I was able to get past that
29:12
and move forward. And again, Sandee was a big
29:15
help. Obviously, my mentors were a big help.
29:18
Friends like you, all the people that I've known
29:20
over the years have been a great help in that
29:22
regard. But it also took me to want to deal with
29:26
it and address it. And I think it's important
29:29
for anyone to realize that you can't do it alone.
29:34
You need to reach out. Don't sit on it. Understand
29:38
that it's impacting others and yourself, most
29:41
Importantly, and go seek help. Now whether it's
29:45
professional or you seek out someone that you
29:48
trust, that you can have a conversation with,
29:51
that can mentor you or guide you down the line,
29:54
whether it's a spouse or like my situation, former
29:58
bosses, whatever, or friends, whatever that is,
30:01
wife, whatever that is, seek it out. Because
30:04
that's how you're going to be able to move forward.
30:07
Don't keep it all inside. No, don't keep it all
30:08
inside, because it'll chew you up. Look at my
30:10
sister. She's a perfect example. She didn't have
30:13
that. She didn't have that. And look what happened
30:15
to her. It's sad. It really is sad. I want to
30:18
talk about a part of the book that I thought
30:19
was probably the most touching of all. In chapter
30:22
7, you talked about some of your personal
30:24
and professional accomplishments and successes,
30:26
which is all great. But there's a part that I
30:29
want you to read here that I thought was probably
30:31
one of my favorite parts of the whole book. What
30:34
I miss most today, that none of the other people
30:36
in my life can replace, is the opportunity to
30:39
talk to my parents. (To) seek their counsel and
30:41
support to address tough decisions I have faced
30:43
over the years since they have been gone. The
30:46
grief of their passing is something I have
30:48
never completely gotten over and never will.
30:51
As I have aged, I have come to accept they are
30:54
gone and have become more and more comfortable
30:56
in my own skin, and I have more confidence in
30:59
my own decisions. I rely on Sandee now for counsel.
31:02
My life is less complicated in retirement, and
31:05
my focus is on my family. It has eased the burden
31:08
from their loss. Yeah, well stated. Thanks. And
31:13
then finally we come to chapter 8, entitled
31:15
“Hope.” It's short, it's only two pages long,
31:17
but you packed a lot of good advice in just a
31:20
couple of pages. And you mentioned, just restate it
31:22
again, the underlying message, what you're trying
31:24
to send in your book. I want people to know that
31:27
they can move forward and have success in their
31:30
life, but they need to seek out others to be
31:33
able to meet that goal. That you can do it. I
31:36
did it. It's possible. Don't dwell in your
31:41
own misery. And now that your book has been published,
31:46
are there things that you wish you might have
31:48
covered in the book that you thought, “Oh, I forgot
31:51
to put that in there.” Yeah, there's a couple
31:53
things. One of the primary things is, you know,
31:55
a lot of the things that saved me, Bob, when
31:58
my parents were yelling at each other, arguing
32:00
about my dad's drinking, was music. Sure. You
32:03
know, I love. You had the radio by your ear or something?
32:06
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely I had a little, you know,
32:10
an album player. Yeah. You know, that I put on.
32:13
I had albums and, yeah, you know that was huge.
32:16
Music is, and still is today. I'm hugely, as you
32:19
know, I'm hugely in the music. Yeah, and, and
32:21
I just, it really helped a lot. Yeah. To be able
32:25
to go to that. Yeah. And it soothed me. It gave
32:29
me a distraction. It gave me something else to
32:31
listen to and think about other than their screaming.
32:34
Yep. No, I think music can be very helpful for
32:36
anybody. It's a good way to relax and take your
32:39
mind off things that you're dwelling on. So that's
32:43
cool. The other thing that, and it wasn't intentional,
32:47
my Aunt Irene talked about my grandfather's death,
32:51
and that he died over in Mankato. And he worked
32:55
on a railroad like my dad. He was, I believe,
32:57
a brakeman on the railroad. And he went to the
33:01
drug store on a Sunday, they claimed, and my
33:04
dad said the same thing, and bought Sterno. What
33:06
is that exactly? Sterno is like, you know, you
33:09
go to a party where they have the trays with
33:12
the food in it? It's a line where you can get
33:16
food and dish up. And they have the little burners
33:19
underneath. Right. To keep it warm. Oh, yeah,
33:21
yeah. On the pans. Yeah. That's Sterno. Sterno?
33:23
That's Sterno. That's fuel. It's fuel. But it's
33:26
alcohol. Oh, my gosh. And he was drinking. He
33:29
drank that. And he poisoned himself. I was gonna say,
33:31
that would kill you? Yeah, it did. Oh. And his
33:35
blood work and stuff was sent to the University
33:37
of Minnesota. And it says that in his death certificate,
33:41
which I have in the book. Yeah. That's proof
33:43
that, obviously, He poisoned himself to death.
33:46
Oh my gosh. Yeah. But he was that desperate,
33:49
right? But here's what, 19, think about 1928.
33:52
Right. What was going on in 1928? Prohibition.
33:54
It didn't matter if it was Sunday or not. I talked
33:56
about in the book it was Sunday, so there was
33:58
liquor being sold, but it didn't matter. There
34:00
wasn't liquor being sold at all because it was
34:02
prohibition. And I didn't clarify that in the
34:05
book. So that's one regret that I have. Not that
34:08
you couldn't get booze, but they couldn't sell
34:10
it legally. Yeah, right. Yeah, although, you
34:12
know, the Volstead, you know who Volstead is,
34:14
right? He was from here. But the Volstead Act
34:18
did allow people to brew their own liquor at
34:20
home. Okay, okay. Okay, you could brew your own
34:22
liquor. Yeah. But he didn't have anything to
34:26
brew, so that's where he went to get the Sterno.
34:28
He got the Sterno at the drugstore and he drank
34:30
It, and he killed himself. Yeah, accidentally.
34:32
Accidentally. Are there people that you want
34:36
to acknowledge that helped you with this book?
34:38
Oh, absolutely. You're one of them. Okay. Bob,
34:41
you were one of the people that edited it, had
34:43
a primary role in editing it. Yeah, I was a proofreader.
34:45
And I'm truly, truly grateful to you for it.
34:48
My pleasure. My friend from college, Anne, also
34:53
edited the book. A friend, Mark, down in Oklahoma,
34:56
Edmond, Oklahoma, also reviewed the book. I had
35:00
my two first cousins that I'm closest to on both
35:03
sides of the family. Maureen, who's on my dad's
35:06
side, my dad's brother's daughter, and my only
35:10
first cousin on my mom's side, Denny. I had them
35:12
both review it, just for consistency in terms
35:15
of what I was talking about. That it wasn't,
35:17
you know, stating some misfacts to their knowledge.
35:19
Right, right. So I did that with them and I owe
35:23
all of you a great thanks. Well, speaking for
35:26
myself, I can say, you know, I'm a certified
35:28
proofreader anyway. You know, that certification
35:31
and four bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
35:35
But I love doing it and I was happy to help you
35:37
out. Well, you did a great job. Yeah, I had a
35:39
lot of fun doing that, so. Okay, I want to share
35:44
with our listeners a couple of comments from
35:46
people who have read Tom's book already. Again,
35:49
the book is called “I Survived: Living with the
35:51
Trauma of a Dependent Parent.” Maybe you've read
35:53
them, Dog, but I want to share them with the
35:55
listeners first. The first one is from a person
35:57
named Terry. Quote, “Very heartfelt book about
36:00
the childhood experiences of living with a dependent
36:03
parent and how it can impact you throughout your
36:06
life. This book can be helpful for someone that
36:08
is struggling from their own personal experiences
36:11
growing up with dependent parents, or for someone
36:14
that is supporting a partner or friend that is
36:16
struggling with the same." Unquote. Terry goes on, “The
36:20
author highlights why the issues can be so complex
36:22
and profound, and most often you cannot overcome
36:25
them without the help of a loving partner, and/
36:28
or support of friends, mentors at work, as well
36:31
as professional counseling in some instances.
36:33
The author also acknowledges that the road to
36:36
recovery is a journey and not a destination,
36:39
and that there are ongoing challenges to deal
36:41
with the insecurities resulting from these experiences.
36:44
Great book of hope for anyone that is struggling
36:47
with unfortunate experiences from their childhood." Unquote.
36:50
Wow, I think Terry liked your book. That was
36:54
really nice. And here's the second comment I
36:56
want to share. It's from a person named Rachel.
36:59
Quote, “I knew Tom as a neighborhood kid. I had
37:02
no idea what his home life was like. This memoir
37:04
is filled with research and personal examples
37:07
of what it's like to grow up with a dependent
37:09
parent. Thanks, Tom, for sharing your experience
37:11
and encouragement. Best wishes and peace on your
37:14
journey." Unquote. High praise indeed. You might know that
37:17
person, maybe? I do. In fact. Rachel? Her and her mother
37:21
Carol, are going to be at my book signing in Waseca.
37:25
That's great. Okay. Speaking of that, you've
37:30
mentioned it already, but you've got a couple
37:31
of book signings actually coming up. For the benefit
37:33
of people listening at this before the middle
37:35
of July of 2026, tell us where they are. Again,
37:39
where they are and the times. It's July 11th.
37:42
It's down in Waseca, Minnesota, my hometown at
37:45
the Waseca Art Center, which is right on State
37:46
Street downtown. It's from 1-3. And
37:51
I'm going to have refreshments there. I'll have
37:53
books there for people if they want to purchase
37:54
one, sell my book. And so that's the first one.
37:59
The next one is on July 19th. July 11th is a
38:03
Saturday. July 19th is a Sunday. And it's at
38:06
Chapter2Books, which is in downtown Hudson,
38:08
Wisconsin. It's also from 1-3. And again,
38:12
it's an opportunity for people to come and say
38:14
hi. Yeah, absolutely. If you have my book, I'm
38:17
more than happy to sign it for you. Or if you'd
38:20
like to purchase it, I know Chapter2Books
38:22
has books for sale there for me. Okay. Is that
38:26
available online too? It is. It's on Amazon and
38:29
Barnes & Noble online, ebook, and it's a paperback.
38:34
It's also at the University of Minnesota, Coffman
38:36
Union. I was just there recently and took a picture
38:40
of it on the shelves there at Coffman Union.
38:44
So, you know, I have more work to do. Reach out
38:46
to, obviously, some other bookstores and things
38:47
around the Twin Cities, hopefully in the Phoenix
38:49
area as well, at some point in time. I'm working
38:52
on trying to get a book signing in Santa Fe,
38:56
New Mexico, where Sandee and I lived for many
38:57
years, and be able to do that, because I know
38:59
a lot of people. I was on two boards there. I
39:02
was president of Big Brothers Big Sisters Mountain
39:06
Region there, and Career and College Plaza, I was
39:09
on that board as well, as a treasurer. So I'm hoping
39:13
to be able to have some event there as well.
39:14
But that's it. That's in process. Yeah. The audio
39:17
book is being recorded now. I've reviewed the
39:21
first chapter, which is obviously the most difficult
39:24
chapter because it's the most technical of the
39:26
whole book. I've reviewed that. I'm just waiting
39:30
for the narrator to finish up the other chapters
39:33
so I can review it. And once that's out, the
39:36
Page Publishing is going to be doing a whole
39:39
social media marketing effort. I'll have a website,
39:42
all those kind of things. But they won't do it
39:44
until the audiobook is out. That’s exciting. I hope
39:49
it goes well. They're both. Yeah. So everything
39:51
I've been doing in terms of marketing has been
39:53
on my own. Yeah. Well, I've been putting it out
39:55
there and you know, I'm on TikTok. I'm on X and
39:58
Instagram, you know, all the Facebook, LinkedIn,
40:01
all the all the stuff that I can get out there
40:03
and as much exposure as I can. Right. Right.
40:08
Again, the name of the book is “I Survived: Living
40:10
with the Trauma of a Dependent Parent,” by Thomas
40:13
Madigan, from PAGE—that's P-A-G-E—Publishing.
40:17
Congratulations again on keeping your promise
40:19
to your mom and writing the book and getting
40:21
it published, Dog. Yeah. I also want to thank
40:23
Page. I mean, they've been great to work with.
40:25
Great publisher. You know, it's a hybrid publishing,
40:28
but they've been really good and good to work
40:31
with. So I just want to shout out to them as
40:32
well. Great. Great. Well, thanks again for joining
40:34
me on this podcast about talking about your book.
40:37
It's been a lot of fun. Thanks, Bob. I really
40:38
appreciate your being willing to take the time. Yep.
40:41
You bet. And again to our listeners, thanks for
40:47
hangin’ out with me, Bob Edholm, and my guest,
40:50
published author, Thomas Madigan. We hope you
40:53
join us for the next episode of “Hangin’ Out with
40:55
Bob,” wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until
40:57
then, bye-eee!