Latest / Authentic Living / History, Female Leadership and Happiness (part 2) with Wendelijn van der Leest

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History, Female Leadership and Happiness (part 2) with Wendelijn van der Leest · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Our interview last week was so good that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
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  If you missed last week, you'll find the link in the show notes.
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  It's not mandatory that you listen, but we wanna make sure that you don't miss out on this
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  amazing conversation.
• 0:54
  Hi, everyone.
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  It's, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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  Today, I have an amazing, woman that I spent some time with in Rome at the Wind Conference
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  and she was on the main stage, talking about female leadership.
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  Her name is Wendellan.
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  Badellis Wendellan.
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  Thanks so much for coming on today.
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  Thank you so much for having me.
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  It's a joy to see and hear you again.
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  So whether whether it caught my attention because As you know, I talk a lot about, female
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  leadership and diversity, and inclusion in the workplace, but she talked She's a historian and
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  a female leadership expert based in the Netherlands.
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  And what captivated me when she spoke was you know, the history about, not just female
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  leadership, but really as societies, what we're looking for in reference to the definition of
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  happiness and what what makes us as a society.
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  What all the basic things we always talk about And, that's why I thought I would love the
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  opportunity for, Wendellin to come in and talk today with all of my my, amazing, amazing
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  listeners.
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  Now with these Yeah.
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  With these times and what you've been studying, unless this is what I'm I'm fascinated about,
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  especially when we talk about, you know, here in North America, we talk a lot about parody
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  and, you know, transformational leadership stuff like that.
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  We're we're obviously clearly showing that this has existed for centuries.
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  That this has been, but through different political and religious ramifications.
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  And like you said, liter literature got, passed down based on the powers that were be And then
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  there's so many things that we're learning now since the 2000.
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  When you think about female leadership and think about what we're trying to achieve today.
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  What's what kind of things would you say as a a historian and someone that works with female
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  leadership that companies or leaders of today really need to think about when they're
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  thinking about, women and and leadership.
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  Yeah.
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  That's a really good question.
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  I think for me, one of the most important, things to start with is again to emphasize that
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  These issues aren't new to think about.
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  We have a legacy of of actually thought leaders thinking about issues like this.
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  So we don't need to invent the wheel all over again.
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  And although we, of course, we want to, adapt solutions to the times of the here and now and
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  our current issues, but it is really comforting to know that our current issues aren't really,
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  really unique in the sense of sustainable leadership and issues with ethnicity and
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  diversity and stuff like that.
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  It's been a topic of discussion and thought for 1000 years.
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  And that's I think it supports us.
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  And it's sort of it creates a starting point in which we can sort of relax a little bit.
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  We don't need to think this is a whole new thing.
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  No.
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  It's it's it's in our DNA to want to try to, cooperate and, lead from a bigger perspective.
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  And the thing that I, the second step that that I often, take is to make people and businesses
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  aware that, what we call thought leaders today were the were what philosophers were 2000 years
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  ago.
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  Philosophy wasn't sort of an elite individual exercise you did in your own study.
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  Like, we think of philosophers nowadays sort of a sol solitary, really, intellectual endeavor.
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  Now philosophy was was the sharing of wisdom with one another in thinking about themes,
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  success and and happiness.
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  And, for it, for example, the stoics move up.
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  I've been studying also for 25 years.
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  We're really adamant that to be successful as a society or or individually, you need it to be
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  in a happy place and happiness was the sharing of what was good for the bigger for the bigger
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  good so not on the individual level.
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  They thought happiness couldn't exist if it existed only for the individual.
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  So That's also really, really important to realize as sort of a second step.
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  It is that to think about and have a broader perspective on leadership and and what is
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  success, what is happiness.
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  I think that's all related.
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  It's really important to know that that has been thought about also for 2000 years ago.
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  And I think it's really interesting I have here, one of my favorite stoics, who I've been
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  rereading again since Rome, and I think is, really interesting to know this is an excerpt
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  of a text from 2000 years ago, and it was a stoic philosopher miscellaneous Ruffus.
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  And he said about women, and and then I go into what, your quest in more in detail about the w
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  the female issue, but I think this is really apt to start with.
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  He says Someone might say that courage is an appropriate characteristic for man only, but
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  this is not so.
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  It is also necessary for women to be courageous and free from cowardice so that she is come
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  neither by pain nor by fear.
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  And stoics thought that pain and fear were the one things or the two things that kept you from
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  really fulfilling your purpose and being happy and therefore successful.
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  And they say, so if women lack courage, it is from lack of practice rather than from courage
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  not being an innate quality.
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  And I think that's 2000 years old.
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  That really is the bottom line for me in female leadership nowadays.
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  We That's
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  the bull that's the bull sign.
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  Right?
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  Like, really technically because It's it's for a lack of practice.
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  It's not it's not if you keep women or have kept women, through the ages in those in those
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  spaces based on the the political and cultural context of that time.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, they haven't had the opportunities to be able to practice.
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  And clearly, what we're seeing today that women have amazing transformational qualities that
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  benefits, so many things within companies.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  And I think for women, we need 2 things to to underpin this, what miss Sonia's office says,
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  to make this a reality, we need to practice our courage as women, but we need men and women
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  around us to give us the space to practice that courage.
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  And we are responsible whether, we we take that space that is given to us like, Umakia, there
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  was just a little bit of space for her, but she ran with it.
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  And and she took it, and she ran with it.
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  And so it's up to us how to, create how we make use of the space that is given to us, but
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  realize that courage is not something we we have in spades without any practice.
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  We need to practice that courage to bring to the table our type of leadership.
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  Because I think, and I wrote about this as well last week, I think for women, a lot of the
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  times leadership is not so much leadership over, but leadership with.
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  And that doesn't mean We enter sort of, systems without hierarchy.
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  It doesn't mean soft leadership, but I think leadership with others is really a different
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  definition of leadership and power than leadership over.
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  And it that coincides with the 3 topics that that sort of arose or sort of learnings that I
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  use in business and workshops that arose from my research.
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  The the second sort of learn key learning, I always communicate is that these women 2000
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  years ago, if we can learn anything from them, it's that they really were very daring and
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  skilled communicators in their representation of what they were and what they did in society.
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  They did not shun away from expressing their roles in society.
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  So, yes, they put up statues with inscriptions naming what they did and what they had
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  achieved.
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  And that is something that I think we, as women, We are sort of socially not it's not a
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  social ideal for us as women to really portray our strengths and communicate our
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  accomplishments.
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  But on the other hand, also in this case, we don't have the practice oftentimes in how to do
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  that aligned to our characters because it doesn't mean you have to be I think that we
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  have a lot of examples of how to communicate our accomplishments and roles from men, but for
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  a lot of women, it just doesn't feel aligned with ourselves to express it like that.
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  So we have to find our true expression of that, but I do think we have to we have to express
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  and communicate our accomplishments and our roles also to inspire others to be daring and
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  to be courageous to bring our hearts and leadership to the table.
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  And I think today in in, female leadership, teams, you're seeing a lot more sponsorship,
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  which I think previously, you know, I think when I was in corporate, it was more, you know,
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  you felt like you're alone on an island gently because you're, you know, you're you're a
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  minority as a female leader.
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  And oftentimes, other females were not your allies.
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  Yeah.
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  Yes.
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  Right?
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  And so I think because that's, like you said, the the backdrop was be like what I think I
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  need to be to get ahead.
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  And I, you know, I can say that in the time, in present times working with female leaders,
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  they're they're so aware of what it's like with the legacy leaders that are saying maybe
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  recognizing they're in the last quarter of their career that they are looking to help and
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  always mentor or be, you know, or be menteezed and it should have something that it's it's
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  it's really nice to see now compared to say when I was, you know, in corporate 20 years
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  ago.
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  It was a completely different thing.
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  Where in a way sometimes you aligned, you know, with males that were generally, more
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  accommodating than females because there was that threat there was like a you're a bit of a
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  bit of, you know, the board was like a battlefield because women were trying to figure
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  out how do I have my voice heard without, you know, losing my position, but sometimes the
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  only option left for them were the male dominated way to to approach.
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  I'll yes.
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  I've well, you experienced it, but I think I've seen sort of the been on the tail end of it.
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  And I've I've talked about this a lot because I do see in within my generation, sometimes women
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  Well, not perhaps speaking badly, but, not understanding why generations before us and
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  certainly the generation that has just retired who are in their seventies, they've been sort
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  of breaking the glass ceiling so to say, but they had to use force and and fit the mold.
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  And They might not sort of understand what we are doing now and the sponsorship and stuff
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  like that, but it's it has been needed.
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  And it's I think it must have been really difficult, like, for you 20 years ago to sort
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  of find your place and not lose your identity of who you are as a human being and your heart.
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  And I think it would have been normal to sort of lose that at times just to be able
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  to To survive.
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  To some to some degree, to survive, you had to figure out the context you know, in your
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  position to be able, you know, and and that wasn't all the time, but at times when you need
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  it, someone to align with you to help sometimes that that support wasn't there.
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  And I think, you know, when I think of us in Rome and all the amazing, international
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  leaders, you know, from every generation.
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  I mean, that we where those rooms were with just absolutely stunning.
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  And I think of your philosopher, and I'm not gonna remember his name, but it is so true when
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  he says that what is needed is is practice.
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  Yes.
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  Oh, yes.
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  Like to drop those to drop those defenses.
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  But to know that it's okay to drop those defenses to to get the courage because the
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  courage is there.
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  And I think, you know, what I experienced, and I I think Kristin Epic is just one of a kind,
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  which is,
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  when I entered Rome, like, you know, I met, you know, all these women, there was an automatic
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  courage
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  Yes.
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  That I could feel that everybody entered into and showed who they were as in their different
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  capacities as leaders.
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  Yes.
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  Oh, yes.
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  Yeah.
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  I've I felt that too, and I thought it was Also, the same goes also for the men who were
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  there.
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  I felt Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yeah.
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  Was really courageous for them to be a minority on that at their end for for once.
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  Yes.
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  It is.
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  There were more men than I had expected to, and they were really courageous as well.
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  And But I really found as, moving for me was that I knew that in my keynote lecture, I
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  wanted to be personal and and and explain on a personal level what history had had brought me
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  in my life and therefore as a leadership expert.
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  But it was landing in Rome, getting to know this group of women that I really dared to be
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  courageous enough.
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  You'd be vulnerable on stage.
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  And in return, I heard from the from women so many women who said, oh, because you dare to be
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  vulnerable on stage in the first lecture, I dared to be vulnerable at the table having the
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  discussions, and I thought, that's it.
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  I was inspired by the dynamics of the group.
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  It filled me up.
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  It gave me courage.
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  And because of it, it's a it has a ripple effect, and it keeps
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  And that's not you know, like you said, you know, we I think everybody wants to leave a
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  legacy, period, men, women, and, obviously, with, people like Umakia, clearly, she would
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  say, I'm gonna I'm gonna need my imprint.
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  Yes.
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  And it shows you that's, you know, through the times that some what a lot of women did the
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  same, but we just you know, are now learning about them, and I think it's become so very
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  important that, ready from a from a company perspective when companies are thinking about
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  implementing policies that they think about what you're talking about the stoics because we
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  all, what do we want?
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  We all want the same things, which is happiness and peace and medium purpose.
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  And by by applying the things that we're talking about with, diversity and inclusion.
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  We're talking just about making your your workplaces happier.
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  And I want you to talk a little bit because I know you talk about happiness.
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  What's in your as a historian that you've learned about happiness and, female leadership
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  as well.
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  Well, I think what I've seen in what I find really interesting, and I will combine sort of
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  the the, stoic view with what I what I've deduced from my research on women in in the
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  Roman era is that where, and talking It's not only the stoics, but the stoics are a group of
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  philosophers who have the most clear and practical sort of philosophy to use.
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  It's not only an intellectual endeavor.
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  They have a really practical philosophy.
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  And they say, success is based on the happiness of the individual and the happiness of the
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  group at large.
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  And for that, we need to live in alignment with what is either nature, god, and nature with a
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  capital and god, universal laws.
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  They were sort of they left it open.
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  They did believe in gods, but they actually believed, even more so in a in a universal law
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  that regulated everything that was going on in life.
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  So you needed to be in alignment with source to to use a modern phrasing.
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  And you needed to have a practice in which you were meditating daily, writing down in your
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  journal, your sort of daily aims.
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  Like, I don't want to.
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  They were very much about handling your emotions and controlling your emotions in a way
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  that you could, create that happiness so that emotions didn't override you in making your
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  decisions every day.
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  So they thought for that.
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  You needed to practice meditation, write Be really aware of your actions and be really
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  aware that what how you act in society and in your own household also in your own business
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  that how you act is in alignment with the a with the aims you have.
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  And that everything is geared towards that and that it never is about an individual purpose
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  and says.
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  So for an example, sort of having the goal of being as prosperous as you can you are allowed
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  to have that goal, in in for stoic philosophers.
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  As long as you want to use that money, for the greater good of all as well.
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  You can have your money and live a good life, but be really aware that you use it for the
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  greater good.
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  So all the development of your inner skills and skill sets had to be for the for the greater
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  good of all.
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  There was no purpose for them in life in general to live it only for yourself.
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  So it has it's a very very human in heart, I have to say.
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  I
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  don't know.
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  Which is which is what I talk a lot with authentic card leadership in my newborn.
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  Right?
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  It's about that alignment, you know, like alignment to yourself and why you lead the way
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  you do and it, you know, and and go back to those core fundamentals about you know, why you
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  became a historian, why became a psychologist and kind of making sure that you live that
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  integrity, but it's not a means to an end back to you.
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  It's to me, you know, for the highest the best good.
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  Yeah.
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  Had a greater impact.
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  Yes.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yes.
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  And to come back to what you were saying about sponsorship, as well.
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  These these stoics were very much about supporting each other, and each other wasn't
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  wasn't geared only towards men.
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  The this the philosopher I just mentioned, whose Sonja's hoof was actually aggregated that
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  women and men and women were educated equally because women were he says there's no point in
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  sort of dealing with women as if they are inferior intellectually to men because they
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  simply are.
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  And so why not, give them as good as educations as we give men, and that meant also a full
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  philosophical education.
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  And what I see, that's that's a sponsorship as well, to have have a really well known
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  philosopher talking about this.
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  But what I saw, and I just spoke about the 3 key learnings that I deduced for my research.
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  The the third one is that what I see is that women really were networkers and great, they
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  had female assemblies who were consulting and discussing topics and issues and who were
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  making decisions, supporting each other, And there were various types of associations for
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  women, and it's not studied really broadly.
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  What what we see is that Outside of the city of Rome, we see a lot of various associations for
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  women who were sort of a counterpart for the male, Senate who were running the the cities.
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  And these sort of female tenets, just to put it like that, were they did not have any political
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  statier, so to say, but they were thinking about stuff giving advice, solicited, or
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  unsolicited, and mine might have been advice through, the Senates, and they were they were
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  supporting each other.
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  There was a sense of sisterhood that must have underpinned these gatherings.
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  They had banquets together.
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  And when I This sounds sort of, very theoretical, but when I apply it to your
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  Makiya, I just told you about that really big tomb that she built.
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  And we see in her tomb, We're not only her own family members who were buried in it, but we
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  see a lot of other families of whom I, also, saw women in inscriptions sort of come to the
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  surface when I studied I I did not only study Omakiya in Pompey, but but all the women that I
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  could find, and in scriptions and statues and stuff like that.
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  And we see a lot of these women, or a lot, a couple of these women who were associated with
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  her for one reason or another and who were buried in her that massive tomb as well.
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  And that and those families weren't very different in social standing than she was.
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  So it wasn't like she was sort of the most wealthy social layer on top of, of Roman
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  society and that the families that were buried in her tomb were sort of lower status.
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  No.
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  It it was not like that.
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  So it feels as if there was some kind of association type or system of whether it assist
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  or would not, but might be really a bit too modern interpretation of it but a support
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  system, for these families to also sort of participate in that massive status that was
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  communicated through that enormous tomb of America.
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  So that support system and the sponsorship you were talking about.
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  Which would make sense about what we're seeing is necessary.
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  It's it's it's almost like we're transcending time and bringing it forward, but really to
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  some degree, it's it's about, you know, others helping others and having that support.
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  And and I think that's something that's you know, a lot of times, you you know, that, any
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  trait that women have, they go, they they connect you know, they they take care of
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  systems around them, which would make a lot of sense when you when you talk about, some of
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  these systems at that time.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And I think to be even, more concrete when you ask for how does my research sort of correlate
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  with the issues we have nowadays in DNI issues and sort of female leadership.
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  I think the the 3 key learnings I was talking about when we as companies, are daring to
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  address these 3 these 3 key learnings, and I will just mention them in a minute, but I think
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  it's a great starting point.
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  To facilitate sort of a space in which women can be courageous enough to develop their
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  leadership.
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  Not only their leadership roles, but I think their their own views and perspective on what
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  type of leader they are or want to be because I think we really do need to be aware of what
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  type of leader we are before we can be a leader.
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  Or you
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  have to, yes, spend that time on awareness.
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  Which, yeah, which is such a big thing to know.
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  You know?
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  Yes.
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  How do I wanna be perceived?
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  What does my voice need to be looked like?
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  Yeah.
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  You know, which I talk a lot with leaders on, being aware.
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  Like, what is What is that message?
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  Like, how are you in alignment, but spending that time to ensure that you're, like you said,
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  you're good with yourself.
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  Before you start to project what your leadership should be like.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  And what I always say when I when I talk about these 3 key learnings, I think what we can
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  really take away from these Roxanne women and and and sort of start a discussion for example,
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  if there's within a business, there's a manager or there's a CEO who wants to have the
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  conversation with his female employers, or she wants to have a conversation with her female
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  employers about their leadership.
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  There are 3 key learnings, I think, that are really relevant.
• 28:39
  And the first is that these Roman women were really daring and innovative in the ways that
• 28:45
  they dealt with the legal and social limitation.
• 28:48
  And I think that's a great starting point to ask questions about Where do you feel the
• 28:53
  limited?
• 28:55
  Internally and externally.
• 28:56
  It's not only externally, but internally, I think as a psychologist, that must be really
• 29:02
  interesting.
• 29:03
  What are the limitations that you are aware of or need to be aware of that you have sort of,
• 29:11
  that limits you nowadays in your leadership capacities.
• 29:16
  And there are a lot questions, you can ask about that because it might be really
• 29:20
  introspective, but it can also be that within a company, there are sort of, unknown limitations
• 29:28
  or or limitations for women that actually the company is not even aware of that they perceive
• 29:35
  it as a limitation.
• 29:37
  So I think that's the first step a lot of businesses can take, based on these Roman
• 29:43
  women, where do we feel limited?
• 29:46
  In as women in a company or in our lives as a leader.
• 29:50
  And the second is these Roman women were really, as I just mentioned, really skilled
• 29:54
  communicators of their accomplishments and roles.
• 29:57
  And we can ask women, how can we aid you in that?
• 30:03
  Is that something that you are aware of that you can create your own ripple effect?
• 30:09
  It's not about sort of an egotistical thing in look at me and look at my CV and how amazing am
• 30:18
  I But it's like you are a piece of the puzzle of society and a piece of the puzzle of a
• 30:24
  business.
• 30:24
  And if you're not clear on what piece of the puzzle you are, you are sort of, you are sort
• 30:31
  of corrupting the bigger puzzle because you are a valid and valuable member of that puzzle.
• 30:39
  So start to ask questions on how as as a manager or a CEO, How are my female employees?
• 30:50
  How can we aid them in in communicating their accomplishments?
• 30:55
  In their roles or becoming aware of that because a lot of the time it needs
• 31:01
  introspection as well.
• 31:04
  To know who you are as a piece of the puzzle and who to know who you are in your leadership
• 31:12
  to be a leader that is aligned with heart as you say it.
• 31:18
  So that's the second thing.
• 31:19
  And the third thing is actually that based on my Roman research is that women were networkers
• 31:27
  and great networkers and sponsors of other women.
• 31:32
  And I think if we look at these Roman women who were setting up female assemblies, we need our
• 31:39
  sisterhoods.
• 31:40
  To put it like that.
• 31:41
  We need it like in Rome, although, of course, we had men and women.
• 31:46
  It felt so supported, so incredibly supportive to have a lot of women around the table
• 31:57
  supporting each other.
• 32:00
  And actually, I think a lot of the women that I met, one of the few or the first things they
• 32:05
  would say was How can I support you and your endeavors in your journey?
• 32:10
  And I was sort of, what?
• 32:13
  What is happening?
• 32:14
  But he's It makes you fly.
• 32:17
  Oh, when you when you run into everybody and that's one of the first things they ask you,
• 32:20
  then you think This is this is for real.
• 32:24
  Right?
• 32:24
  Not not like other conferences where you're, you know, takes a while.
• 32:27
  It was definitely something that I absolutely experienced.
• 32:31
  So I think to your point, your 3rd point naturally through history, there has been that,
• 32:37
  and it's about as women getting back to natural states, and and what we're like in connecting
• 32:44
  and assisting and helping really that comes you know, the way we're wired is we are wired to be
• 32:51
  the emotional keepers of relationship, from a very, very young age.
• 32:55
  And naturally, not that men don't, but again, I think it's because it's the focus of our roles
• 33:00
  also in in our families and our societies.
• 33:04
  So definitely you could see how number 3, which we experienced so well in Rome, was it at its
• 33:09
  at its highest sense?
• 33:12
  Yeah.
• 33:12
  And then this yes.
• 33:14
  It's such a those are such important steps, and it's amazing that, you pull that out from the
• 33:20
  research.
• 33:22
  Yeah.
• 33:22
  It it, yeah, it really and it works for me as well.
• 33:26
  Like I shared him wrong on stage, When I do struggle in either my work or my personal life,
• 33:33
  I do look at these three points.
• 33:35
  Where am I struggling?
• 33:37
  Because a lot of the times, I am not being very daring in how I am dealing with my limitations.
• 33:46
  Or I'm not using my network and, or I'm not communicating My piece of the puzzle, my,
• 33:57
  public roles and accomplishments because the moment we start to do that, we sort of start
• 34:05
  to, get the ball rolling again.
• 34:09
  And you is when you feel stuck, you just need energy or you need a different perspective, one
• 34:14
  little step at a time, and it works for me.
• 34:19
  Every time I have to say.
• 34:21
  Well, I'm gonna keep that in mind as I go through, some of the struggles that I have,
• 34:25
  which you know, we can think about, in any given week or month how many of those struggles
• 34:31
  we might come up against to to apply them.
• 34:34
  But now I know, I've taken so much of your time and I know we could continue.
• 34:41
  I I know you, You do a lot of amazing work and, I would love for you to share with people if
• 34:49
  they'd like to get a hold of you to understand more about your book that you've written and or
• 34:55
  even the leadership work that you're doing where they could reach out to to have a chat
• 35:00
  with you.
• 35:01
  That's lovely.
• 35:02
  Yeah.
• 35:02
  I'm in as I explained earlier, in the middle of sort of redoing my website.
• 35:07
  So I would refer people to, my LinkedIn page.
• 35:11
  And I probably they are in the in the, notes of the podcast, what my name is, and there are
• 35:18
  There aren't too many people with the same name.
• 35:21
  I can tell you.
• 35:22
  So they can, absolutely contact me via LinkedIn, and I always love to, get into
• 35:31
  contact with people, who are interested in well, either just to have a chat and be
• 35:37
  inspired or or get a nice reference for some literature or a thought or whatever.
• 35:42
  But I love working with companies mainly on, on leadership and, giving them a new perspective
• 35:53
  from based on history because we don't need to invent the wheel again, as I said.
• 36:01
  And I am really really committed to history, not for what it reveals about the past per se,
• 36:07
  but what it reveals about us about our communities, our about our businesses, and
• 36:13
  about the world at large, it breaks down some of the barriers we experience.
• 36:19
  And that is what I love to do.
• 36:21
  I love to focus on female leadership, but I do a lot of leadership work in general.
• 36:27
  As well with lectures, either, lectures or workshops.
• 36:33
  So
• 36:33
  Well, that's amazing.
• 36:34
  And, of course, the women's contact will be, in the show notes.
• 36:41
  So what am I walking away with?
• 36:43
  And I I often say look at where you've come from so that you can know, like you said, I
• 36:50
  love the molecule, the, you know, everybody that's impacted you.
• 36:55
  And I think of my legacy and, you know, coming from, you know, Trinidad Tobacco and you know,
• 37:03
  my path with my grandparents being, indentured laborers coming from Indian, the Middle East,
• 37:09
  and what what where that is in my DNA and and what's my my path and what I wanted to share
• 37:17
  with the world has been around voice.
• 37:20
  As a as a female, leader.
• 37:23
  So as you go up there, just reflect to what, vigilance shared she shared some amazing things
• 37:30
  and to think about how is it that you're going to be courageous?
• 37:35
  How is it that you are going to highlight who you are and where you want to go and leverage
• 37:43
  your supports around you because you have many, you may not have thought about it and just
• 37:48
  think, what is one contact that I could reach out to today?
• 37:52
  That might be able to help me make that first step in, in my practice, like the philosopher
• 37:59
  said, start practicing today.
• 38:02
  And again, rather than thanks so much again for giving us your time and for everyone listening.
• 38:07
  Thanks so much for tuning in.
• 38:09
  Again, If you're wanting to know about, leading from the heart, you can just go to my website
• 38:15
  roxanderhodge.comforward/quiz Derhodge give you a mini quiz.
• 38:20
  You can look at, where you are either at work at home and, we'll send you the results.
• 38:26
  Again, what, Bradley, thanks so much, and love meeting you, Rome, and I'm sure we will see
• 38:32
  each other again in Europe soon.
• 38:35
  So take care, everyone, and, we'll see you next week.
• 38:39
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 38:42
  Create the space for positive, healthy change.
• 38:46
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 38:52
  roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 38:56
  We'll see you next time.
• 38:57
  An authentic living with Roxanne.