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427 | How Anxiety Shows Up—and Changes—in the Playroom · Play Therapy Podcast: A Master-Class in Child-Centered Play Therapy

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
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Hi,
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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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The Kid Counselor.
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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
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a master class in child-centered play therapy
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and practical support and application for your
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work with children and their families.
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In today's episode,
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we are
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Answering quite a few questions actually from Elle in
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Michigan.
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So,
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questions about two different clients,
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but
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multiple questions for each client.
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So,
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this is gonna be kind of a little mini lightning round,
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if you will,
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but all from Elle in
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Michigan.
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So thank you for these questions.
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And
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thank you for those of you who have registered for Indiana.
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It's next week,
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so you're running out of time if you want to come,
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but I would love to have you.
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And by the way,
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I can't believe that I'm saying this out loud because it has gone really quickly,
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but that officially means there are 2 months until the Jersey event.
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So,
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Jersey registration is officially open.
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And if you all are in New York,
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New Jersey,
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Pennsylvania,
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you know,
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that whole neck of the woods,
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as we say in the South,
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y'all need to come hang out with me in Jersey.
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So,
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really looking forward to that.
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And you can go to iamccpt.live
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and or there'll be a link in the show notes.
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So,
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running out of time for registration for Indiana,
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but you still have like a day or two.
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And then if you want to come to Jersey,
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make sure you register for that.
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I'm excited about seeing you in both of those
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areas of the country.
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So,
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Let's start with the first client and those questions,
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and then we will look at the second client and those questions.
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So,
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10-year-old female struggling with separating from her parents to go to school.
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So that's the first kid.
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When she first came to me,
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she said,
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I used to see a therapist who just played games with me,
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but I didn't find it helpful,
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and my anxiety got worse.
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I'm looking for tools to help with my anxiety.
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End quote.
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OK,
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so let me pause there.
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There,
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there's so much more to this email,
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but
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let's just take this one step at a time.
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All right.
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Anytime a 10 year old
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Comes in and says something like that.
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Anytime
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a kid really of any age under 13
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comes in and says something like that,
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we should immediately have a couple of things on our radar.
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The first is,
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wow,
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this is probably a highly anxious child.
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Second thing on our radar should be,
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this sounds very much like this is parentting a parent.
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Well,
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you know what,
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last time when you went to the therapist and you just played games
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and you didn't think it was helpful and actually your anxiety got worse,
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so
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if you go to another therapist,
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you could probably ask for some tools to help you deal with your anxiety.
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So you can see how that would be passed down
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from an adult,
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and then the child absorbs it and brings it in.
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So that would be the 2nd thing on our radar.
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The 3rd thing on our radar
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is we have to be really clear.
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That
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we are going to interact with this child
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completely differently than what they're used to.
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And typically we do that by saying something like,
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hmm,
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you've already been to therapy before,
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and it sounds like it was pretty different.
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When you come and hang out with me.
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Let me pause on that note.
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Notice I didn't say when
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I'm your therapist
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or when I'm your counselor
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or
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therapy here,
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counseling here,
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we try not to use those words.
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Because
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what the child can absorb is that they come and
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hang out with you.
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You have time with them
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You have an hour with them each week.
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They come play with you.
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Those are far more neutral
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constructs.
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So rather than saying
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therapy here is gonna be different,
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you could say,
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when you come hang out with me.
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When we spend our hour together each week.
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When you come and play
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That has a much more neutral,
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lack of agenda
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tone to it.
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So,
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you would say,
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It sounds like you have already been in therapy before,
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or sounds like you already had a therapist before.
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But when you come hang out with me,
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it's probably gonna be pretty different because you're in charge when you're here.
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And from the very beginning,
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you're setting the tone,
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you're setting the expectation.
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You're giving clarity
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because what do anxious kids want more than anything else?
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Not to have surprises,
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not to have anything unexpected,
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and they want power and control over
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the things that they can have power and control.
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So,
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we're going to make it just straight out of the gate,
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abundantly clear,
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it's going to be different and you're going to be in charge.
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And,
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um,
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let me continue on with the email now.
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I'm assuming the past therapists may not have utilized all the
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appropriate responses and tracking in other parts of the model,
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which may be why it wasn't helpful.
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OK,
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yes,
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I'm sure
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that if it wasn't helpful,
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then the therapist wasn't CCPT.
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But we also have to understand.
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A 10 year old
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needs and wants to play.
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A 10 year old cannot cognitively process
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anxiety.
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A 10 year old is going,
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especially an anxious 10 year-old,
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is going to present more mature and present more verbal
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and present more squared away and put together,
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but that's not what the child needs and that's
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not how the child's going to process the anxiety.
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So,
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we're going to
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remain faithful to the model,
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remain adherent,
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and we're going to trust the process.
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And
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I would have just from the very beginning said,
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hm,
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you think that you would like some tools to help you with anxiety,
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but
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you get to decide what we do when we're here.
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You're in charge
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You're the boss.
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What we do is up to you.
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And then it becomes very clear
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the child can talk about anxiety if she wants,
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she can bring up anxiety if she wants.
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I doubt she will.
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I think that that's a former expectation
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that she thinks has carried over.
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But when she realizes that she can truly just play,
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I suspect she'll just play.
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Maybe not right away because she's
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highly anxious,
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but eventually she will.
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She's 10.
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All right,
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so let's move on to the next part of the question.
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I have a bucket of fidgets and squishies in my
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office that kids tend to enjoy picking through and then
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playing with them while they talk.
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She often takes them out and rolls them in the sand
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and then returns them full of sand to the bucket,
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which
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made me cringe and sigh because of the mess,
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but I was able to eventually be OK with it.
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Sometimes she would bring her own fidgets into session.
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I realized after some time she was leaving them in my bucket.
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I didn't realize at the time,
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or I would have addressed it,
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but twice while with other clients,
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I saw them grab a fidget that I had not purchased,
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and I realized it was this client's.
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I did address it with her recently,
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and I said,
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I notice you've been leaving fidgets here.
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She said,
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Yeah,
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those are ones I don't really play with anymore,
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so I decided to give them to you so other kids can play with them.
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I reflected her words and told her she didn't have to do that,
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but she said she wanted to.
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Any thoughts?
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Would you have accepted them or set a limit?
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OK.
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So let's talk about the first part of this.
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She would take the fidgets out,
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put them in the sand,
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and then return them
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full of sand to the fidget bucket.
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This is no surprise to me,
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although it's quite interesting because you didn't say
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how many sessions you've had with this kid.
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However,
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highly anxious kids
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usually do not
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like
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what you're describing.
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They don't typically like sand very much.
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Because
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it's very subconscious,
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it's very deep,
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it's very unpredictable,
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it's kinesthetic,
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it's tactile,
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it's messy.
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I mean,
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those are all things that
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anxious kids are like,
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yeah,
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no thank you.
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So
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that in and of itself is interesting that she gravitated toward the sand,
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but
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it's also interesting that she put the fidgets in the sand
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and then returned them back sandy.
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Because they also don't like messes
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and they don't like things being
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in
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inappropriate,
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I'm air quoting,
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inappropriate states.
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And so
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to leave
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a fidget or a squishy sandy
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and put it back sandy without cleaning it off,
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I would argue that is working through anxiety
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because that does not align with anxiety-driven behavior.
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Anxiety-driven behavior is imperative driven.
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So,
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I have to clean it off.
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I can't put it back that way.
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It must be wiped off before it goes back in the bucket.
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I shouldn't put it in the sand at all.
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I don't want to touch the sand.
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All of these imperatives that they're going to have as an internal dialogue,
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she's confronting them.
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So I think that's actually a very powerful
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testament to the work that she's doing in CCPT
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because
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no one's forcing her to confront these things,
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but she is.
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And then as far as leaving the items.
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OK,
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so we know that that probably relates to permanence.
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And
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if we look at it through that lens,
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it's likely
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that
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she is wanting those to remain behind
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because that alleviates some of the
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struggle with conflicting truth.
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In other words,
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She's having struggle separating with her parents to go to school.
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OK,
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so.
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Opposing conflicting realities for her
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are,
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I'm actually fine when I go to school,
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but I'm scared to death to leave my parents.
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So now let's kind of enlarge this to the playroom.
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I am going to leave some of the things that are mine in the playroom.
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Permanence driven would be,
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and they're going to persist even though I'm not with them anymore,
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and there's a component of,
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and they'll be there when I come back.
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So there's kind of an anchor
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that is being left in the playroom.
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And there's a permanence component to it.
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Kids often play permanence when they're trying to wrestle
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with
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conflicting realities.
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And so
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these are mine,
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and
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they're usually at my house,
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but now I'm choosing to leave them here.
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I know that other kids are going to play with them,
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but when I come back,
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they'll be there.
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So you can see there's all kinds of deep stuff worked into that.
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So,
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Elle,
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let me answer your question.
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Would you have
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set a limit?
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Would you have accepted them?
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I've had so many kids.
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Specifically gift me with things for the playroom.
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Bring things to me for the playroom.
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Leave things in the playroom,
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and as long as it's appropriate in the playroom.
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In other words,
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if it has a screen,
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if it's technologically driven,
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if it's electronic in nature,
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I would never allow that to remain in the room and I would just say,
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oh well,
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the playroom is a tech-free zone.
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OK,
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so it's easy to set a limit if it's an inappropriate.
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Deposit.
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But
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in this case,
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you already have fidgets.
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If she's leaving a few more fidgets,
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as long as she's aware she does not have to do that,
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which you made that known.
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She says she wants to,
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so then you say,
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oh,
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you've chosen to leave some of your fidgets here for other kids to use.
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You know that you can choose to take them home at any time since they're yours.
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And then it's completely up to her,
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but I think there's deeper work going on,
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which is why she wants to leave them there.
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OK.
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So now we're going to pivot to
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female client who is 12,
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and in this case,
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coming because of struggles with transitioning between two different homes
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and then also the remarriage of one of her parents.
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So,
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let's dive into this one.
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She's very quiet,
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barely speaks in sessions.
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But it's clear that she loves coming.
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She would sigh at the end of sessions and ask,
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Already?
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when time was up.
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Her parent informed me that she was constantly asking when her next session was.
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She typically sits quietly and chooses to either play in the sand,
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setting up
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animals or a wedding,
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but also burying a coffin and placing a tombstone on top
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and leaving it or placing a shark under the sand
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with the fins sticking up and ducks floating on top.
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I reflect her behaviors
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and feelings,
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and once she even said,
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Guess what I'm going to do before looking for the coffin.
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She would sometimes choose to paint or do art.
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Once or twice she chose to play a game.
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When she would do art,
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she would ask me what color to use.
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I would tell her,
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you can choose any color you'd like.
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So she came up with a way to get me to participate.
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She would hover her hands over the paints each time she wanted a new color
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and tell me to say stop,
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and then she would choose the one her hand hovered over.
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She's done this many times now in response to me returning responsibility.
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I found it creative
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and wondered if it was relational and her wanting me to be a part of it,
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or if it was really her not wanting to choose.
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I went along with it,
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but I'm wondering your thoughts,
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OK.
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So that's actually kind of two parts,
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and we'll kind of separate them a little bit.
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It's interesting that
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she comes in and she does sand work again,
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highly anxious kids,
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that's hard for them.
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So,
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Elle,
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you have some gutsy girls that have anxiety that are doing sand work.
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And
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when she is,
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based on what you're describing,
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when she's setting up
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a wedding,
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that's very clear that that's real world
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stuff that she's playing out.
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When she is burying a coffin and putting a tombstone on top,
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or
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having a shark under the sand with the fins sticking up and ducks floating on top.
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I mean,
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both of those are really symbolic,
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really clear
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what she's processing.
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You know,
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she's had
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the
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separation and divorce of her parents.
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She's had her entire life upended.
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She's grieving the loss of what she used to have.
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I mean,
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a divorce is essentially
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like processing a death.
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It's the death of the family unit for sure.
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And
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there's kind of this menacing component of like things look OK.
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So there's like animals,
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but then there's also this buried coffin with a tombstone,
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and then there's these ducks floating,
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but then there's this shark lurking right under the surface.
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You can see the fantasy versus reality,
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the ideal versus actual.
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It's like things are OK on the surface,
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but there's this other stuff that's like pretty deep and heavy.
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So symbolically,
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gosh,
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I mean that's a lot
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and really exciting to hear all the work that she's doing there.
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OK,
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as far as the paint and the art,
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that's safe.
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When you think about an anxious kid
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and or a child that's early on in the process,
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if they dive into deep sand work like you're describing,
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Elle,
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they're also going to need emotional breaks
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that are very benign and superficial and easier to deal with.
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So painting.
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drawing,
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all of that is very safe,
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very predictable,
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very governable.
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And sometimes it can be competence driven,
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because if a child is
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especially gifted at art,
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or really enjoys art,
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it's something where they can show their mastery.
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So,
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sometimes it can be self-esteem motivated as well,
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but very clearly,
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it would be safe play
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that we would recognize there.
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So,
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when she finds this really clever way for you
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to be involved in the selection of the color,
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is it that she doesn't want to choose?
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Maybe,
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because sometimes anxious kids don't want the responsibility of being in charge.
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So they will avoid that responsibility.
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But in this case,
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I think you're more on target in your analysis that she's wanting you to be Involved,
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and she's finding a way to make it collaborative.
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Because if it was really important to her what color she should choose,
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if she had something in mind for what she wanted to create,
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and what colors she wanted,
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and how she wanted it to go,
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she wouldn't have given you the opportunity
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to randomly select
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colors for her.
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So,
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it feels more connective,
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more relational,
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more collaborative.
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OK,
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so now I'm going to continue with
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the email.
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She also often seems to need a lot of sensory input,
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and if she sees a squishy that's about to break,
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she will ask to break it and then want to remove all the insides and play with it.
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She comments about the big mess she's making and
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seems to keep checking if it bothers me.
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I reflect that she seems worried about what I think,
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but she knows she can do most of the things she wants,
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and she would continue playing.
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She has also painted her whole hand with paint,
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and then asked to do a high five with me on my hand,
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which I've allowed.
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She has asked to paint my hand and do a high five with both hands wet with paint.
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This has happened several times now.
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Looking for your insight.
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I know we don't need to know the meaning,
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but I'm wondering for myself.
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All right,
15:48
well,
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with those two components,
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the breaking the squishies,
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taking all of the insides out,
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covering your hand in paint,
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that's very similar to what you're describing with the 10-year-old,
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where she's covering fidgets with sand and then putting them back.
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Covering your hand with paint,
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opening up and making a mess with the beads inside of,
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of squishes and fidgets.
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All of that is very messy.
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It's very tactile,
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and it's
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almost confronting
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those fears
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or the what ifs.
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I mean,
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so many anxious kids would be like,
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Oh,
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I can't make a mess.
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Oh,
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what if I get in trouble?
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What if Elle gets
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Really upset with me.
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What if I'm not allowed to break these apart?
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What if I get paint on my clothes?
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What if,
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so that anxious
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thought process
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is very,
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what if driven,
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and therefore,
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it makes them very hesitant to do things like you're describing.
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Putting stuff in sand,
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putting it back in buckets covered with sand,
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getting your hand covered in paint,
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doing a high five with someone else with their hand covered in paint.
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Having all of the insides of,
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of squid squishes and fidgets
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all over the place.
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She's checking in with you because she's still fearful about the outcome.
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But this is reduction of inhibition.
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This is her realizing,
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you know what,
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I can be a little bit more spontaneous.
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I don't have to be so dictated and governed by my fears and worries.
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These are big shifts,
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especially for anxious kids.
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So it sounds like in both cases,
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Elle,
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these are anxious girls that are starting
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to process their anxiety at higher levels,
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and you're seeing the evidence of
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the fear facing and the confrontation of some of the beliefs
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that have probably dictated a lot of decisions for these kids.
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And they're starting to let loose a little bit and
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be a little bit more free and spontaneous and uninhibited.
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That's really encouraging.
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So,
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obviously,
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they have needed CCPT.
17:37
Obviously,
17:37
they have needed your adherence and fidelity to the model.
17:40
And now we can see them start to become better
17:42
versions of themselves and obviously less anxious in the process.
17:46
So Elle,
17:47
thank you so much for the questions.
17:48
I appreciate it.
17:49
If y'all want to reach out,
17:50
please do.
17:50
brenna@thekidcounselor.com
17:52
You can say hello,
17:53
you can tell me what you're thinking about,
17:55
you can ask me a question.
17:57
I
17:58
love interacting.
17:59
It's one of my favorite things about podcasting is
18:01
the intimacy and the connection that is formed.
18:04
Between me and you.
18:06
And so,
18:06
you know,
18:07
you listen to me all day long,
18:08
so I'm happy to listen to you.
18:09
So,
18:10
please email me.
18:11
You can also leave me a voicemail if you would like,
18:13
if you want to call 813-812-5525,
18:16
and I will be able to hear your voice instead of just reading your words.
18:20
So,
18:20
either way,
18:21
I love to hear from y'all.
18:22
So please reach out.
18:23
And just know that truly,
18:26
every second that you spend listening to this podcast,
18:29
every second that you pour into mastering this model,
18:32
every second that you spend with a kid in a playroom,
18:35
the most adherent that you can be.
18:38
Things are happening in major significant ways,
18:43
and there's impact.
18:44
Every bit of it,
18:45
every second is spent
18:47
with the goal of mastery of CCPT,
18:51
and none of that is ever wasted.
18:53
There's meaning in every single strive.
18:55
There's meaning in every single attempt.
18:57
There's meaning in every single bit of practice,
19:00
because the more adherent we are,
19:01
the more effective it is for children.
19:04
And so,
19:05
therefore,
19:05
we know that those hours that we spend with kids,
19:08
there's going to be outcomes on the other side that we can say
19:12
that was CCPT.
19:13
So,
19:14
I hope that y'all feel very proud.
19:15
I hope that y'all feel very passionate.
19:17
I hope that y'all feel very convinced
19:19
that this is the way to be with kids and we are CCPT.
19:23
Love y'all.
19:24
Have a great week.
19:24
We'll talk again soon.
19:25
Bye.
19:27
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
19:31
For more episodes and resources,
19:33
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.