Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, Lady Scammers Gonna Scam (Ft. You Can See Everything, The Last Seduction, and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels)

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Yes, Lady Scammers Gonna Scam (Ft. You Can See Everything, The Last Seduction, and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

0:00
They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid. Telling
0:05
us to hush, dim our historical light. But darlings,
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we're the Harpies, sharp and keen. Unveiling
0:12
the truth behind the silvering. History, Harpies,
0:17
hear us. Episode three of our second season.
0:33
We play kind of slow. We have been slow. But
0:35
we've had a lot going on. We have. And we are
0:38
going for... Quality rather than we really are.
0:40
We're like streaming rather than network. OK,
0:43
we're not one of these like 25 episode seasons.
0:46
You can't binge us. No, we're like quality like
0:50
limited. You have to wait for it and enjoy it.
0:52
Well, and I will say as our listeners will find
0:55
out today, the content we're consuming is also
0:58
quite long. True. So it isn't like we're jamming
1:02
in, you know, 20 minute episodes of something
1:05
we are putting in the time and the work. We're
1:09
putting in the work. We're doing the work. And
1:11
of course, we're doing things where we're not
1:12
just like babbling, right? We can't just like
1:14
breath. We really have to like, we care about
1:17
our sources, our texts, all this other good stuff.
1:20
And we have to reflect. We have to reflect. We
1:23
have to reflect. And we do have full -time jobs.
1:25
We have full -time jobs. And children. And children.
1:28
And children. And tennis. Well, I do not have
1:30
tennis, of course. I do nothing. I do absolutely
1:34
nothing. You work out? I do work out. I go on
1:36
my exercise bike every single day. Well that's
1:38
not nothing. Well, but I watch TV while I'm doing
1:40
it. So actually I can double dip because I can
1:43
prepare for our podcast. Okay, and let me just
1:45
say listeners... For those of you who know me,
1:48
or even if you don't, my tennis record, and I
1:51
don't mean to jinx it, has been so good. And
1:54
I'm just feeling very empowered and excited.
1:58
And I've had a lot of wins. And it's just been
2:02
incredibly productive on the tennis front. Pleased
2:05
to hear it. So when we do a sequel to our sports
2:08
episode, we can focus more on tennis. I would
2:10
love it. I really would love it. Also, and again,
2:15
I have not gotten injured. And let's hope it
2:18
stays that way. Let's hope. But if we are speaking
2:21
of empowered women, Lauren, let's start talking
2:26
about our theme and topic for today, which is
2:30
about, let's say, the lady scammers. The lady
2:33
scammers. The lady scammers. Lauren and I went
2:36
to go see You Can See Everything, the documentary
2:40
about Elizabeth Holmes by Nathan Fielder. And
2:44
of course, it's been getting so much buzz. So
2:46
much. And unfortunately, Lauren, it's been getting
2:48
a lot of buzz. from people who don't seem to
2:51
know who Elizabeth Holmes is before they saw
2:54
this documentary. phenomenon in and of itself.
2:59
One thing I will say that makes me very happy
3:01
about The Buzz and The Good Reviews, before we
3:04
get into whatever we think about it, it makes
3:07
me more than thrilled that people are going to
3:10
see a three -hour documentary in the movie theater.
3:12
That's number one. Agreed. That can't be a bad
3:15
thing. It makes me incredibly happy that my teenage
3:19
daughter went to see this movie and had a real
3:22
close textual analysis of just Reality and fiction
3:27
and what is magic and what is made up and just
3:31
the form rather than content I appreciate the
3:35
way people are talking about this film in much
3:39
more sophisticated ways than I'm used to. And
3:43
also, I will say really basically, the attention
3:45
span. Because of course, we justifiably have
3:48
a lot of doubts about the ability for any kind
3:51
of medium to really hold people's attention,
3:53
especially Gen Z and Gen Alpha. So that is also
3:59
something I think that is worthwhile. So I am
4:01
a fan of this movie for bringing people in and
4:05
for, if anything, encouraging them to see more
4:08
films like this and to make more films like this.
4:12
should they want to because it is a big surprise
4:15
that people are kind of running to see this now.
4:18
It is many different age groups. And I mean,
4:22
our theater wasn't particularly full, but that
4:24
never really says anything. Yes. And also, but
4:26
it was a committed theater, right? It was full
4:29
of people who were responding to the film. And
4:32
it was interesting. Obviously, it's not like
4:33
we talked to any of our theater neighbors, but
4:35
it would have been interesting to know how much
4:37
those people knew about Elizabeth Holmes ahead
4:40
of time. And just one more thing before we start
4:43
talking in more detail. I think, of course, you
4:45
and I as professors, we are very well aware of
4:49
students' difficulty with analyzing texts, with
4:52
dealing with not just controversy, but dealing
4:55
with complexity. And so I think that this is
4:58
also to go along with what you said about your
4:59
daughter seeing it. It is really reassuring that
5:02
this film, no matter what else we can say about
5:05
it, the film really levies a challenge in reading.
5:09
It does. And it's very good that people are taking
5:11
that up because we really don't see it anyplace
5:13
else. No. No, no, and the film leaves and we
5:17
can get into this so much to your own beliefs,
5:22
your own priorities and what you want to take
5:24
from it because it's about so many things. And
5:28
even if you really don't take anything about
5:30
Elizabeth Holmes per se from it, you take other
5:33
things, other themes from it. So it's so open
5:36
ended in terms of how someone can receive this
5:39
film. And I think that's why people who don't
5:41
know anything about. homes or Theranos or all
5:45
the troubles she was in can still appreciate
5:48
it. And I think that's that's wonderful. It's
5:52
a wonderful thing. Agreed. So you and I both
5:55
knew an awful lot about Elizabeth Holmes before
5:58
we went into it. So we had both separately seen
6:02
the Alex Gibney documentary, which came out,
6:06
I think, in 2019. And then we also both rewatched
6:10
that documentary just a little while ago. And
6:13
we had both also seen the inventor. Wait, I always
6:17
mix up the Dropout, the Inventor, the Inventor
6:19
is the documentary and the Dropout is the...
6:22
series that came out, what, a few years ago?
6:25
I don't even remember. On Hulu. On Hulu. And
6:29
a multi -part documentary, really successful,
6:31
got Amanda Seyfried the Emmy for lead actress
6:35
for her performance as Elizabeth Holmes. And
6:37
so, and obviously over the past several years,
6:40
lots of stories about Elizabeth Holmes in the
6:41
newspaper, all about her extended trial, the
6:44
prison sentence. And so both of us knew an awful
6:47
lot about her. Yes. And so I think the basic
6:50
question, Did you can see everything? Did that
6:54
change at all your opinion of Elizabeth Holmes?
6:58
It fundamentally did not. Because all of the
7:06
manipulations that you see in both the inventor,
7:10
the documentary, and the dropout were in some
7:13
ways confirmed to me in the documentary. Whether
7:17
or not you believe that she really believes she
7:21
is doing something that is legitimate and that
7:25
and that it's a sort of semantic thing of yeah
7:28
i felt a hundred times just like edison and eventually
7:32
it's going to work i think she does believe that.
7:35
But in the end she also believes that she can
7:38
lie and that she can deceive her employees and
7:42
that she can deceive her investors and that she
7:45
can. justify all kinds of bad practices in the
7:53
name of greatness, in the name of innovation.
7:57
She never vets the Edison through any real scientists.
8:03
And so the documentary which is much more about
8:06
you know obviously her family life before she
8:09
goes to prison and then fielders experience with
8:12
her in prison never for me changed whether she
8:16
had you know. was fraudulent as the CEO of Theranos.
8:22
It's just like, she's trying to show you that
8:24
she's a real person, and now she has kids, and
8:26
now she has this husband who's not sunny, right?
8:30
And she's this caring mother, and we're supposed
8:35
to feel very sympathetic towards her. And of
8:37
course, fielding does later. Or at least presents
8:43
himself to be. But I didn't necessarily change
8:47
my mind about her. If anything, she seemed just
8:52
as manipulative. What about you? In some ways,
8:56
I feel like I had an even worse opinion of her
8:59
having watched it. Because I think that what
9:03
does seem to be clear in the earlier documentary
9:07
and certainly the representation in the dropout
9:10
is that she was such a young woman. Oh my gosh,
9:14
19. And so to some extent, right, you can really,
9:18
I don't want to say excuse, because I mean, she's
9:20
a terrible person, and she's deceitful. And obviously,
9:22
I mean, it's, it's completely clear that she,
9:24
she deceived lots of people, right, sort of high
9:27
and low. But I think it's in some ways, it's
9:30
easy. easier to look at that early career and
9:34
say this is a girl who for whatever reason is
9:36
obsessed with steve jobs right she's growing
9:38
up in this environment she's at stanford. She
9:41
is had the traumatic experience of being raped
9:44
which of course your father does refer to write
9:46
the more recent documentary. And she's just either
9:50
dominated or whatever has this very bizarre relationship
9:53
with sonny about money and so i think it's easier
9:55
to kind of fold in. Not just sort of psychosis,
10:00
but this kind of naivete right this Fundamentally,
10:03
she is someone who wants a particular kind of
10:05
fame, right? She doesn't want to be an actress
10:07
She doesn't want to be a singer for whatever
10:09
reason her desire for fame this kind of Eve Harrington
10:13
thing Right is to be a scientist, you know this
10:15
kind of corporate scientist what I think then
10:18
is so In some ways even more depressing and even
10:21
more damaging about this is that now we have
10:23
a mature woman who is a mother right has gone
10:27
through this experience of being arrested and
10:30
tried and found guilty and is going to prison
10:32
and. The maybe the focus on fame is less right
10:38
that presentation isn't so much there, but but
10:41
the desire to deceive is still there is still
10:44
there and the desire to still be an innovator
10:47
you know be the inventor like to be to be the
10:50
person who changes the world what she always
10:52
says right that she's still going to be doing
10:54
these. Whatever invention scams now it's going
10:58
to be whatever they're trying to get money for
11:01
there's another startup coming yes that there's
11:04
no learning from what has happened in the past
11:07
and the idea and it's so interesting what you
11:11
said about her being nineteen and then all of
11:13
a sudden having. All of these big wigs coming
11:16
at you, right? And politicians and the people
11:20
from this, the guy from the Stanford chemistry
11:22
department who left, who left to go work for
11:25
Theranos. Which is crazy. Which is nuts, okay?
11:27
I mean, just to think about that is so bonkers,
11:31
but... That later she is still you know, you
11:36
see her taking these phone calls. You see her
11:38
conducting this business You see her that's still
11:40
in the works The husband is now involved and
11:43
they're going to continue to do this stuff with
11:45
her in prison And the goal is still there and
11:49
and she's still running on the same hamster wheel
11:52
So yeah, I mean it is interesting that there
11:55
hasn't really been any reflection point or inflection
11:59
point after the trial after or when she has the
12:03
kids or when she has the kids and of course i
12:05
mean the suspicion was very much right that the
12:07
reason why she had the i mean it's very unkind
12:09
suspicion but that she had the children in part
12:12
to postpone going to prison and again that's
12:15
not a very a kind sort of um suspicion but it
12:18
seems a fair one and i mean one thing that Of
12:22
course, does become clear in the early documentary
12:25
and then manifests itself in a different way
12:27
in the Nathan Fielder one is that obviously what
12:31
we and since you brought up the chemistry professor,
12:34
what we see, and I think especially with that
12:36
chemistry professor in the early one, these are
12:39
these are men who are simply taken by a 19 year
12:42
old blonde. Right and it is interesting that
12:45
the one skeptic that we really have is the woman
12:47
is the woman who's who's what the professor of
12:50
medicine or whatever who is who is actually also
12:52
a closest to the. The field that she is doing.
12:58
She's a real doctor. She deals with blood. And
13:01
then, of course, we have the guy who works out
13:03
there. And I was like, Stephen Breyer plays.
13:06
Yes. Who is actually a blood person. Somebody
13:08
who studies blood. Yes, hematologist. Right,
13:10
hematologist. Yeah. So Ian, what's his? Ian Gibbons.
13:14
Ian Gibbons. Right. Who ends up committing suicide.
13:16
Right. And that the woman in Harvard Medical
13:19
School is like, she tells her, it's not going
13:20
to work. It's not going to work. It's not going
13:21
to work. Literally, this is literally impossible.
13:24
But that these other guys, men, are convinced.
13:28
And I think it's not just that she is a cute
13:30
blonde. They talk about her as if she really
13:35
is the next Edison. Yes. OK, they talk about
13:37
her. Anne Steve Jobs, right? They talk about
13:40
her not just like, oh, she was so endearing and
13:43
begotten. But they also say she had a presence
13:47
that was unlike any other. Like once in a gazillion
13:51
centuries or whatever, you find somebody like
13:53
that. But of course, but what they don't talk
13:55
about is her actual academic aptitude. Correct.
13:58
Nobody says anything like, oh my god, she blew
14:00
everyone in the lab out of the water. No. Again,
14:03
whatever. Brilliant A student. They do talk about
14:07
it in terms of presence. But they also, what's
14:09
so interesting, and I was thinking about this
14:11
other day, is that nobody suggests. Finish Stanford,
14:16
go to get your PhD and then or whatever training
14:20
in this thing. And then I'll be there for you
14:22
when you finish. But you need the training. You
14:26
need to learn the fundamentals of chemistry,
14:28
biology. You need to write a thesis. What we
14:31
require of our own students, right? That you
14:34
don't... need to do any of this it's already
14:36
now and they this kind of immediacy to all of
14:41
this and sunny you know maybe part of it too
14:43
enabling it is so interesting that there were
14:46
that i mean maybe somebody did make the suggestion
14:48
but that again that chemistry guy at stanford
14:50
is just willing to give up his tenured position
14:53
there to go work at Theranos. And I mean, I'm
14:56
sorry, but that to me really does scream, right?
14:59
Basically just, I don't know, he had either already
15:01
slept with her or wanted to sleep with her, right?
15:04
These I'm just surmising right here. I'm just
15:06
surmising. Because that's the thing is that when
15:07
he talks about her, right, it really is, you
15:11
know, you mentioned the word magic before. And,
15:14
but that's the sense, right, that that all of
15:17
these people have simply been kind of I'm mystified
15:21
in a different sense of that word right the sense
15:23
that they have all had this kind of spell cast
15:26
on rhyme and what is also interesting about what
15:28
you're saying about nobody saying to her wait
15:30
because of course the entirety of the business
15:33
right thinking about say the the cvs right sorry
15:37
walgreens walgreens that that nobody said oh
15:40
but wait a minute let's actually see if it works.
15:44
If it works. Let's try it out. Let's try it out.
15:47
And so that is, and of course, I mean, right,
15:49
someone's going to say, oh, but it was just that
15:51
entire, right, sort of Silicon Valley VC culture,
15:54
right? Everyone's to jump on the next big thing,
15:56
but it just simply, but you still expect some
15:59
degree of sanity. And yes, and some degree of
16:04
saying, oh, well, okay. I mean, again, Apple
16:06
becomes Apple because you do have people say,
16:08
oh, look, here's a product that like works, right?
16:11
And the same thing with, with Microsoft. And
16:14
so that's what I do think, because, of course,
16:16
you know, thinking about the recent documentary,
16:19
since there's so much of the chatter about is
16:22
Nathan Fielder also, right, just kind of cast
16:25
is that. Right. And so obviously, it's impossible
16:29
to to tell. But, you know, I think you and I,
16:33
as people who have gone to academic conferences,
16:37
people who are writing book reviews, we are so
16:41
trained to keep Asking the questions, right?
16:45
We are literally paid to do that. And so I think
16:47
that it is we are in an environment where even
16:50
this documentary has no interest in asking the
16:53
follow up questions. And it's fascinating that
16:56
it doesn't. It's fascinating that he doesn't
16:59
say to her, I've told you in those interviews
17:02
when he does ask her, do you still believe it
17:04
works? But he doesn't say, OK, what about the
17:06
people who were told they had cancer or they
17:10
had syphilis or they had Whatever. Okay, what
17:14
would you say to them or how did that happen?
17:18
been. Yes. He never goes there. And to me, those
17:21
are like the fundamental questions of like, yeah,
17:24
the people who worked at Walgreens who had their
17:26
whole families tested using this machine. And
17:30
some of them, I guess, not using this machine.
17:32
They just had like regular old blood draw. Regular
17:34
old blood draws with a needle. A regular lab.
17:37
Regular lab. And that's why the results were
17:39
accurate. Yes. Because they were never done by
17:41
Theranos. Yes. And like, what would you say to
17:43
the people who are being told they were using
17:46
your product? didn't use your product and just
17:49
you were shipping it out to a third party like
17:51
lab and not telling people yeah and they just
17:52
went to lab core basically yes the way they would
17:54
if there were no the same the same lab core that
17:57
basically you were slagging because you are a
17:59
disruptor and all of these other things yeah
18:01
i mean Like, I mean, even just the basics of,
18:05
did you ever use LabCorp? I mean, he never asks
18:09
those questions. And it's fascinating that he
18:11
doesn't. And it makes me wonder, you know, like
18:14
we think of a lot of documentaries that are authorized
18:16
by the estate, right? Sure, sure. What was within
18:20
limits? What was not within limits? I mean, when
18:24
he says, you're really going to let me live here
18:26
with you, and she goes, yeah, you can see everything.
18:29
I have nothing to hide, right? But of course,
18:32
She does have some time because or he decides
18:36
not to ask her anything that's going to be particularly
18:39
Yeah, I think one of the other but there are
18:42
such guardrails around What despite the fact
18:45
that it's very intimate and that he is living
18:47
in the house that he is seeing all of these kind
18:49
of private intimate moments and things like that.
18:52
But when he sits down with her, when it comes
18:54
down to it, he never gets to the meat of it.
18:57
We don't have this kind of 60 minute style, right?
19:00
Like we are cornering him. Tell me about Tyler
19:01
Schultz. Tell me about Tyler Schultz. And one
19:04
of the, I mean, of course, one of the, one of
19:07
the things that's gotten press, right, is when
19:08
he says like, well, how did you end up here?
19:11
Right. And she's like, I don't know. And of course,
19:15
right. And that, that is the opening where, right,
19:17
this sort of kind of serve in volley, you have
19:21
to come back and say, well again, okay, are you
19:24
trying to say that Sonny coerced you into all
19:25
of these things? Again, what about XYZ? Yes,
19:28
what about Tyler Schultz? And it just never happens.
19:32
And so I do think that it's still not clear to
19:35
me what the entire point of the documentary is.
19:41
Because obviously it doesn't have to be 60 Minutes,
19:43
right? It doesn't have to be a three hour, you
19:45
know, whatever Nightline. But it's still not
19:48
clear to me what is the entire purpose. Why?
19:53
Why, as one of our colleagues was just saying,
19:56
what is the purpose of this? I think the purpose
19:58
is the meta, is the magic, is the artifice of
20:04
it, the artifice of the documentary, the artifice
20:06
of her. I think that's the point of it. And I
20:09
think that's what makes it great. I think it
20:12
is made to make people ask these questions. And
20:16
I don't think that it is, again, in the earlier
20:20
documentary, which was much more literal, of
20:22
course, and shorter. But I think this one also,
20:26
once we bring in the Amanda reenactment and the
20:30
blurring of fact and fiction, I think it's experimental
20:34
in some ways and in a good way. And I don't really
20:38
think, as strange as this sounds, that it is
20:42
trying to come out to say anything about her.
20:44
Other than we don't know. Yeah, just like she
20:47
says I don't know I think the the documentary
20:50
is sort of like we don't know even though we
20:53
do not but see but that's what I mean That of
20:56
course is what is so problematic about it Because
20:59
it's obvious that he wants to use the same kind
21:02
of things right that you did in the rehearsal,
21:03
right? The mock -ups the horse sort of like,
21:05
you know, right real life blah blah blah blah.
21:07
But of course here it's just unbelievably damaging
21:11
and of course you know we were talking earlier
21:14
before we started about in curiosity right right
21:17
and that is a perhaps a bane of maybe younger
21:19
people and of course the the most damaging thing
21:24
right is the intimation that the documentary
21:26
makes that she's a damsel in distress and you
21:30
know mean men somehow pushed her into this you
21:32
know controlling men and are continuing to and
21:35
obviously billy is terrible, right? I mean, the
21:38
whole scrambled eggs things, whatever, right?
21:40
He's just a jerk. And obviously, I mean, they
21:43
didn't lean on the whole sort of like, you know,
21:45
sunny thing. But it's very clear that Sonny Balwani
21:48
was also right. I mean, part of this whole sort
21:50
of scam. And obviously, he also went to prison.
21:54
But if you just watch the documentary, you know,
21:57
with those big cow eyes, right, and the whole
22:01
You really can see I mean how many young women
22:03
are watching it and being like, oh wow, you know,
22:06
here's our Joan of Arc here. I feel so bad that
22:08
this woman separated from her children. And this
22:11
is so sad and why again, you know, women can
22:14
never get ahead, you know, women have to work
22:16
twice as hard, you know, to get half the success,
22:18
et cetera, et cetera. And that is unfortunate.
22:22
But I also, again, wonder whether that was due
22:26
to the restraints that Holmes put on him in making
22:30
the documentary. I mean, again, she invited him
22:33
to do it. As much as she says, I don't have anything
22:36
to do with this, right? We know she does. And
22:39
that there are limits to what he could do. I
22:43
mean, we don't know what they are, of course.
22:45
But I... Other than that, he ended up paying
22:47
them. Right. He ended up paying them. Right.
22:50
For their participation. Yeah. So. which of course
22:53
is part of the quote unquote plot. But it's,
22:57
I don't know, it's very, I, we talked a little
23:01
bit about how it's very pointedly kind of Hitchcockian,
23:05
right? Sort of at the beginning. So we have this
23:07
whole idea that he's presenting himself as this
23:09
kind of infiltrator, right? In a very kind, you
23:12
know, the way that he's shooting himself or.
23:13
from a distance right sort of standing there
23:15
on the balcony watching them the whole listening
23:18
thing right we have this sort of vague sense
23:19
of like the Francis Ford Coppola film like The
23:21
Conversation you know Gene Hackman listening
23:23
in on these very private things and I don't know
23:28
it's just she's so one thing of course that that
23:33
stands out that also has gotten a lot of press
23:35
is the whole who's on first right right right
23:37
where she's clearly lying about not getting she's
23:40
lying about not getting it and she is lying about
23:43
not getting it But it's so transparent. It is
23:46
transparent. And that's why I don't know. I don't
23:49
know. So then the question becomes, who then
23:52
can escape the spell that she is putting on people?
23:58
I mean, who still basically buys that? And the
24:00
question is, does Nathan Fielder buy it? Is he,
24:02
again, under the spell? But even if he is under
24:05
the spell, I mean, the idea that somebody post
24:08
-prison would invest in her company. I think
24:11
we can say. I don't think that's going to happen,
24:14
but I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I don't
24:16
know. I don't think a bunch of like, again, Gen
24:19
Alpha girls who went to see the movie and then,
24:22
you know, they're like "Free Elizabeth Holmes."
24:24
But I mean, again, it's really, really fascinating.
24:30
And I do think that the documentary detached
24:34
from all the other stuff makes it both very problematic,
24:38
but also very, very interesting at the same time.
24:41
Yeah, and there's so many, there's so many things
24:44
that people can latch on to this, whether you
24:47
think about fame machine, whether you think about
24:49
what is innovation, what is genius, gender stuff,
24:53
whether you, there's so many ways to come at
24:56
this and to, and also relate to some part of
24:59
it, right? Whether somebody, it would be great,
25:02
right? To be able to go to CBS and find out every
25:05
disease I have right now. Right. And to be swindled
25:08
by doctors and to have somebody who wants to
25:10
make your life easier. But then, of course, in
25:12
the first documentary, you see that story she
25:15
tells about her uncle over and over and over
25:18
again. It's just so bad. Yeah. It's terrible.
25:21
I mean, it becomes really terrible. And that
25:23
she really is just this snake oil salesman. I
25:27
mean, that she really is. Yeah, it's classic.
25:29
Yes. Sort of 19th century bottled elixir. Yes.
25:33
Yes. But I also think maybe we can then sort
25:35
of move on a little. But I do think, and you
25:38
and I as academics, right? Because the whole,
25:40
you know, everyone talks about the Silicon Valley,
25:42
kind of "fake it till you make it" thing, right?
25:44
And I mean, academia also is like that. And,
25:48
you know, we very much, not we, you and I, but
25:51
in general, we academics, you know, suffer so
25:53
much from imposter syndrome. And what's fascinating
25:58
is that, of course, in Elizabeth Holmes, we see
26:00
someone who originally, right, she is doing the
26:04
fake it to you make it until you make it. She
26:07
does make it. There's no there there. Nobody
26:12
seems to care. She definitely doesn't have imposter
26:16
syndrome, although she actually is an imposter.
26:19
Yes. And but but she had I mean, again, it's
26:22
so fascinating that she has such an incredible
26:25
I guess, okay, this is the last thing I'll say.
26:27
I wanna hear the last thing you say. Because
26:29
in the earlier documentary, right, we see someone
26:31
who, again, casts those spells because of strength.
26:34
yes and of course now she's casting the spells
26:37
because of weakness vulnerability right and vulnerability
26:40
right and so it is so fascinating not just to
26:42
think about it in terms of like well which of
26:44
these is successful i mean of course obviously
26:47
i mean female academics we can never be successful
26:50
because of vulnerability right absolutely not
26:52
right we just have to be sort of super hard asses
26:54
as both you and i are you know um in a good way
26:57
right in a super good way but that i think is
27:01
it's both dangerous i mean obviously it's not
27:04
so so distant in terms of time that we can make
27:06
any sort of big distinction, right, in terms
27:09
of views of women, views of women as scammers,
27:11
you know, sort of weakness versus strength. But
27:13
that is interesting to me that she leans on,
27:17
right, whatever stereotype is useful. The other
27:22
thing that, you know, again, we have two sides,
27:26
two sides of academia. We have the plagiarist,
27:29
I mean, the peer review. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And
27:31
so We go through rigorous peer review so that
27:35
Theranos basically doesn't happen But of course
27:38
as we know some of our some of the most famous
27:41
Jason Arday from this summer. Yeah, um, it's
27:45
plagiarist Yeah, and got had all the all the
27:48
all the things. Yeah, right Doris Kerns Goodwin,
27:50
right, right accused of plagiarism, right? Yeah,
27:53
right. So the whole fake it till you make it
27:55
Yeah, that's right. But the guardrails in academia,
28:00
and again, one would say if she had gone through
28:02
the full program at Stanford, had she gotten
28:06
her BS. Had she applied for an NSF grant. Right.
28:11
Somebody would have looked at this and said,
28:13
you need to explain and it needs to be vetted.
28:16
And if we're going to give you however many millions
28:18
of dollars to develop this patent, we're going
28:21
to need. prototypes and we're going to need drafts
28:24
and we're going to need a team. Before you build
28:26
the gigantic building for the company. Correct.
28:30
So because she circumvented the protocol that
28:33
most, um, and again, you can think, okay, Zuckerberg,
28:36
like, you know, you have these people who invent
28:38
things, right? And they, they're geniuses and
28:40
they do it in their backyard. They do it with
28:42
four friends or something like that. But she
28:44
actually went to Stanford, which is interesting,
28:47
right? And she met the real deal and the real
28:50
deal bought into it except for the med school.
28:54
And that's another interesting, again, this is
28:56
an interesting component that she was able to
29:00
fake it, but she was also to fake it. She could
29:02
fake it because it was legitimated by so many
29:05
people around her. And also, I mean, they were
29:08
the guardrails, right? It's like if Schultz is
29:11
on board or Madison's on board or if Clinton's
29:13
on board, then who else is good? Right. FGA,
29:17
forget about it. But again, but of course, but
29:20
those protocols were not double blind, right?
29:26
And so the big question is exactly that, right?
29:28
If you don't know, if it's an NSF grant where
29:31
you can't see the red lip, the blonde hair on
29:34
the thin woman, then what happens? What happens?
29:39
So, okay. Okay, so let's move on. So we decided
29:44
to go with two other films, non -documentaries
29:48
about scammers. Lady scammers. Lady scammers.
29:51
One from the 90s, mid 90s, and one from the late
29:54
80s. And so we watched The Last Seduction starring
29:59
the beautiful Linda Fiorentino. Gorgeous. Who
30:03
really looks stunning. Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
30:05
Even though she wears. I would wear. every single
30:08
thing. Well, she only has the one outfit for
30:10
about a good hour. And then she clearly went
30:13
to the mall. And then she she shopped around,
30:15
especially like the menswear look at the very
30:17
end would wear that. Oh, see, I like the black
30:20
blouse with like the white sort of piping. Yeah.
30:22
She looks terrific. Unbelievable. Gorgeous. Even
30:25
after she's been like. No, it doesn't like thrown
30:27
around or anyway, so Linda Fiorentino is a Scam
30:33
artist. She has a kind of louse husband in the
30:37
beginning of the film. They live in New York
30:39
and He's dealing drugs because he's a doctor
30:42
right and he steals a bunch of money and she
30:46
takes the money What is it like $100 ,000? No,
30:49
it was like $700 ,000. I think yeah Because he's
30:53
selling pharmaceutical grade cocaine, okay So,
30:56
anyway, $700 ,000, she runs and takes it, she's
31:00
in the shower, and she goes to this town in upstate
31:04
New York near Buffalo called Benton. And there
31:07
she meets Peter Berg, who is this kind of...
31:12
Drone at the insurance company kind of claims
31:15
a job or whatever he wants to get out but he
31:17
doesn't know how he had been to buffalo he had
31:20
lived in buffalo but then had come back to this
31:22
small town and was looking for something excitement
31:25
and boy does he get it what does he get he gets
31:29
it. Ten times a night. Right. So Linda appears
31:33
you know, whose name is now Wendy. Wendy Croy.
31:37
Croy. Yes. They start an affair and she makes
31:41
it clear in the beginning that it's only going
31:43
to be sex and he's like, all right. Okay. And
31:46
then he's. I want you to love me. I really want
31:48
you to love me. So anyway, she starts to manipulate
31:52
him and she eventually convinces him that he
31:56
needs to. kill her husband. Although he doesn't
31:59
know that it's the husband. He doesn't know that
32:01
it's her husband. He doesn't know anything about
32:04
her real name or. He doesn't know she's, yes.
32:07
He doesn't know who she is. He thinks she's just
32:09
a normal person. And a damsel in distress. Damsel
32:11
in distress. Who is being beaten up by her husband
32:14
and is on the run. But he also does know that
32:18
she has a plan supposedly to like arrange murders
32:21
for other women. We're almost in like housemaid
32:24
territory. Right, right, right. Um, that's, that's
32:27
a good, a good reference. Anyway, so anyway,
32:30
she, she does convince the poor dupe. Um, and,
32:35
and he goes to Bill Pullman's. Bill Pullman.
32:39
We need to talk about Bill Pullman. She goes
32:41
to Bill Pullman, who's the husband to his apartment
32:44
and he kind of tries to kill him, but he can't
32:46
kill him. And then Bill Pullman tells him. who
32:49
she is. This is my wife. Yeah. What's the story?
32:52
And then she manages to set the whole, oh, set
32:56
the whole thing. The end is death by mace. Death
32:58
by mace. He, she ends up killing Bill Pullman
33:01
and then framing, uh, Peter Berg for rape and
33:05
murder. Uh, and while the police listen, so she's
33:08
able to get away with it all. So she's the ultimate
33:11
scammer. Ultimate scammer. And we have no idea
33:14
if she presumably lives happily ever after. But
33:17
it is one of the things that I mean, again, she
33:20
looks incredible. She's super sexy. Yes. She's
33:24
in a sense, there's not really any kind of characterization
33:26
of her. Right. We have no idea why she's this
33:29
way. We have no idea. She's always been evil.
33:31
No. Her justification is to Bill Pullman. Well,
33:34
you slapped me. Right. And therefore, like, I
33:37
get to steal all your money and, you know, try
33:39
to have someone murder you. And but we have no
33:42
sensibility. We see the wedding picture of them,
33:44
which looks like a kind of normal wedding picture.
33:46
But no idea like where this came from, if she
33:51
has been sort of, again, a scam artist her entire
33:53
life. She, again, unbelievable sexy. I mean,
33:57
just super, right? And, but also very much presents
34:01
herself to the Peter Berg character, whose name
34:05
I'm totally, Mike, right? Presents herself to
34:08
him as emotionally cold, right? Emotionally unavailable.
34:12
Yeah, total bitch, right? Total bitch. And I
34:15
do think that what is difficult about watching
34:17
this film, which, I mean, again, I thought was
34:18
great. And just, I mean, so much a kind of 1995
34:21
era film is that most of the time, right, and
34:25
I felt really guilty about this, I was like rooting
34:27
for her, not in the sense of like, I want you
34:30
to succeed in murdering people, not that, but
34:32
in the sense of like, oh my, man, I mean, what
34:35
a queen. In a way where I'm like, okay, wait
34:38
a minute, right? So Elizabeth Hull, you see,
34:40
that was like awful, because she is. But it was,
34:43
that to me was so challenging because I'm like,
34:45
I'm not seeing any characterization. I don't
34:48
know why this, she's so awful. Such a scammer.
34:50
But she's so magnetic. But she's so magnetic,
34:52
right? So magnetic. And the fact that you have,
34:56
you know, this guy, Mike, who has this secret,
34:59
right? That he does not want her to discover.
35:02
Right. Or anyone. Or anyone. Right. But that
35:05
she does discover that his brief wife was...
35:10
I don't know how we would describe it, sort of
35:12
a transgender. And which he didn't seem to know
35:16
about, as far as I could tell, like when he married
35:18
her, right? That was a little bit unclear to
35:20
me. But then he realizes it, right? And then
35:23
sort of, so everything is super well planned
35:28
out, right? She's so calculating, she is so cold,
35:31
everything, right? Sort of checking all these
35:33
boxes to make sure that he is going to be inculpated
35:36
for the death of Bill Pullman. But yeah, I mean,
35:41
totally magnetic. I mean, that is the word for
35:42
her. And again, super sexy, magnetic, but also
35:46
chilling. Absolutely chilling. I mean, very similar
35:48
to the sort of Sharon Stone. Yes. Sure. Absolutely.
35:52
Yes. But also so calculating. Ten beats ahead
35:56
of all the men. And all the men do seem incredibly
35:59
stupid. Yes. I mean, the private detectives are
36:03
stupid. Bill Pullman is stupid. Peter Berg is
36:07
stupid. Very much so. And they're all so easily
36:10
manipulated by her. And again, in sort of contrast,
36:13
what's interesting about this one, again, compared
36:15
to Elizabeth Holmes, is the men that Elizabeth
36:18
Holmes are not stupid. And these are men who
36:22
are just so easily manipulated because she's,
36:26
I guess, again, just this sex pod. And also there's,
36:31
you know, we don't really know too much, again,
36:33
like you said, about the relationship with Bill
36:35
Pullman. But the Peter Berg relationship where
36:38
in the beginning she's just like, we're just
36:40
going to be like fuck buddies. And if you don't
36:43
like that, then whatever, I'll go find another
36:45
one. Until she finds out that he has this secret.
36:49
Yes. Right. And then she's like, oh, I can get
36:52
this poor sack to go and kill my husband because
36:56
now I know. this thing about him. Yes. And he
36:59
has value to her at that point. But beyond that,
37:03
she's like, oh, I got to stay in this town. I
37:05
got to, you know, have some until she gets a
37:07
divorce. Because that's that's also what's very
37:09
she begins right with the presumption that she
37:11
just needs to divorce Bill Pullman right in order
37:14
to retain some of the money. Right. And so that's
37:16
why she's sitting around. And it really only
37:18
is when she realizes that Mike is a dupe and
37:20
that he does have this secret that she then sort
37:22
of shifts gears into oh, he can kill Bill Pullman.
37:25
And then I just get all the money. And then I
37:26
get all the money. And then I get all the money.
37:28
And so, I mean, you're absolutely right. We see
37:31
her as, again, 10 steps ahead of everyone. Bill
37:34
Pullman probably is the man who comes off the
37:37
best, right? In terms of not being, in the sense
37:39
that he finds out where she is, right? He's able
37:41
to sort of keep her on the phone. He's able to
37:43
locate her. He finds, he is the one who realizes
37:46
she has written her name backwards. And so he
37:49
understands that her name is now Wendy Croy.
37:51
Obviously he figures out, right, that Mike has
37:54
been sent by her, when Mike is such an awkward
37:57
sort of robber, you know? Like, does nobody do
38:00
it? And I mean, I will say one of the things
38:03
that is so shocking, right, in a kind of good
38:06
way about this film, is that to see Bill Pullman,
38:10
right, as this kind of scumbag. I know, he's
38:12
like in a Matt Dillon role almost, you know?
38:15
Yes, yes. Or a Peter Berg role, right? I kept
38:17
thinking, like, what casting director said, right,
38:20
that, oh, Bill Pullman's gonna be the villain
38:22
and Peter Berg's gonna be the Patsy. Well, also
38:24
when you see, even when you see him hit her,
38:26
you're like, that's Bill Pullman, he shouldn't
38:28
be hitting - That's Bill Pullman. He's like Dr.
38:31
Whatever in singles, right? And then the president
38:33
of the United States and Independence Day. So
38:35
I actually really enjoyed seeing him kind of
38:38
playing against time, right? So that was really
38:41
great. And I mean, Peter Berg, of course, has
38:43
just been kind of like what a scumbag and other
38:45
things. So by the way, did you notice that Hank
38:49
Schrader from Breaking Bad? Yes, he's in that
38:52
minor role. I mean she's super evil we don't
38:58
know anything about her and that then is the
39:00
question like how she is so successful and to
39:03
me one of the most interesting scenes is when
39:05
she cons the private detective yes who thinks
39:09
he is in control right who also thinks he's onto
39:11
her yeah right with this constant sort of like
39:13
i'm not playing these games i know what you're
39:15
trying to do i can read you like a book right
39:18
and it simply comes down to her berating him
39:21
about his penis i know that everything collapses
39:24
i know And he ends up dead because of it. Yeah.
39:28
And so I don't know. And even then, right, that's
39:30
not a case of her saying like because she tries
39:33
the whole like, oh, well, let's split the money.
39:35
Right. You could fuck me basically. Let's split
39:37
the money. But he doesn't go for that. No. It's
39:39
only when you're like, she's you have a small
39:42
penis. Right. You have a small penis. Show it
39:44
to me. Right. It's remarkable. Yeah. And so one
39:47
of the things that is, I think, so interesting
39:51
about it. But that's also a play on the first
39:54
time she meets Peter Berg. Yes, you're right.
39:57
You're right. Good call. She first meets Peter
39:59
Berg, and he gives her this joke, like, I'm hung
40:01
like a horse. And she's like, show me. Show me.
40:04
Right now, here in the bar. Right. And of course,
40:06
he's like... Right. And he chokes, and the private
40:15
detective can't resist. Can't resist. He just
40:16
cannot resist. Can't resist. And as a result,
40:20
dies. Of course, one thing, you know, thinking
40:22
about, you mentioned Sharon Stone and Basic Instinct,
40:25
because of course, in Basic Instinct, right,
40:27
we're supposed to think that one of the things
40:29
that kind of tears down Michael Douglas's, you
40:31
know, reserve or intelligence or whatever, is
40:34
because she's kinky, right? And what's so funny
40:36
about this is like, They're not kinky at all.
40:38
I mean, they do it once against a chain link fence
40:40
once or something right outside the bar. But
40:42
it's like, but there's no sense of like, oh my
40:45
god. And especially because again, he does have
40:47
this sort of past experience of going to Buffalo
40:49
right and boozing it up or whatever. But it's
40:51
kind of I don't want to say vanilla. It is well
40:53
compared to I mean, Sharon Stone is bisexual.
40:56
Sharon Stone is adventurous. Sharon Stone has
40:58
made it very clear. And in that interview, she's
41:00
like, I'm up for anything. Up for anything. And
41:03
Linda Fiorentino, I mean, we don't see that her
41:06
doing that. And she's really, there's really
41:09
no indication that she's, I don't know, again,
41:12
like doing anything. Although there, when Bill
41:15
Pullman says like, oh, I don't think like girls
41:18
from Benton, fuck like that. But again, that's
41:22
more of like a rural like put down than it is
41:25
anything really about her. Yes. And of course
41:27
we are also supposed to think that there's kind
41:29
of this sort of like class dynamic, right? And
41:32
that she is from New York City, right? Whatever
41:34
that means. Yes, this sort of cosmopolitan, right?
41:38
And then this this guy who's like, I couldn't
41:40
make it in Buffalo. Buffalo was too risque for
41:43
me. But nevertheless, right? You and that's,
41:46
of course, how she gets him really finally to
41:48
kill Bull Pullman. Yeah, we're going to go live
41:50
in New York City. We're going to get a penthouse,
41:52
right? Tons of money, tons of money, you know,
41:54
live in life. And, you know, you're just this
41:56
insurance sort of scrub. And So that, of course,
42:01
one of the other reasons why I really liked it.
42:03
is because it is an explicit, not subtle, reverse
42:08
of Double Indemnity. Which, of course, it matches.
42:10
She says that. She does. She does. She's right.
42:12
And that's what I was thinking so much about
42:15
Double Indemnity, which I love so much. Because,
42:18
of course, there, even though the Barbara Stanwyck
42:20
character is the one who sort of engineers Walter
42:24
Neff, the Fred McMurray character, to kill her
42:27
husband, he's the one who comes up with the plot,
42:30
right? The entire, like, this is how it's going
42:32
to work. Because I am an insurance agent and
42:35
I know all the angles and it's almost the sense
42:38
of sort of personal pride that I'm going to sort
42:41
of push through all of these angles and get a
42:43
ton of money. And so you have those two things
42:45
kind of coming together. And in this, of course,
42:48
it's all her. And the other thing that we haven't
42:51
discussed, which is to point out also with a
42:54
parallel with Holmes, she is a higher up. Yes.
42:57
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said she's not a secretary
43:00
at this insurance company. She's hired to do
43:03
some sort of thing. But it is an equal, if not
43:08
a superior, to Peter Berg. And she knows more
43:11
about using computers than he does. She's the
43:13
one who's like, oh, well, cross reference, blah,
43:15
blah, blah, blah, blah. But it just has to be
43:17
done in his office so that, of course, it can't
43:18
be traced back. So the trail goes back to him.
43:20
But she is, again, if we're thinking about these
43:23
power situations and work and all of that, she's
43:26
coming in at an equal level. And she has this,
43:29
I guess, like other job before then, you know,
43:32
in some power suit job. We don't really know
43:35
what it is. But she's walking around in a power
43:38
suit for the entire movie. And again, looking
43:40
incredible. Every single outfit. Yes, every single
43:43
outfit is incredible. Although again, I will
43:45
say she is wearing that same black skirt and
43:49
black blazer and white top for... for a very long
43:53
time, especially after all that sex. I'm like,
43:56
don't you want like pajamas or something? When
43:58
she gets the house and then she has like a nightgown,
44:01
I was like, I'm really glad that she has some
44:04
pajamas because I was like watching her sleep
44:08
in her clothes. Her chain link fence clothes.
44:12
Right, right. Well, and of course we also have
44:14
all those fantastic scenes where in terms of
44:16
doing the skin, I mean, to me, the most kind
44:18
of, I don't know, It's not just that it's less
44:22
sympathetic, but where I think she is most evil
44:24
is when she hears him leave that answering machine
44:27
message. Oh, God. Where he's like, you know,
44:29
if I only knew that you loved me. And she writes
44:31
that fake note. And she writes the fake note
44:32
with like the hearts, you know. And she knows
44:34
he's going to break into the house. And she's
44:37
under the bed. Under the bed, like watching and
44:39
like laughing. And it's just, but it's so brilliant,
44:42
right? Because we all, we consistently see that
44:45
she pulls away and he comes back. right? He's
44:48
knocking on her door, right? He's coming into
44:51
the office, right? The whole sort of like, well,
44:54
and it's just, I mean, she also just can read
44:57
men. I mean, even the scene where she's nambling
45:00
those, making the device to blow the tires on
45:04
the, on the detective, the cookies, right? She's
45:08
just ahead of the game. And she knows these guys.
45:11
None of whom are very smart. The only person
45:14
who seems to have any smarts is that lawyer.
45:16
Yeah. OK. Yeah. Who's obviously the JT Walsh
45:18
character. Yeah. He's telling her, you know,
45:19
you can't do this. You have to get a divorce.
45:22
It's going to be blah, blah, blah, blah. And
45:23
she listens to him. Yeah. But everybody else
45:26
is just somebody who's under her spell. Yeah.
45:28
Patsy. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I guess the last
45:31
thing that I'll say about it, then we can move
45:33
on a little bit, is one thing I really like about
45:38
it is that we're not fed. Right? Any of this,
45:42
I mean, I hate to compare Elizabeth Holm's thing
45:44
again, too, but we're not fed any of this, like,
45:47
oh, here's the tragic backstory where her stepmother
45:49
molested her or something and her mom died in
45:52
insane asylum. Right. We don't need to know.
45:55
Right. There's no explanation given. There's
45:58
no justification. There's no explanation. There's
46:00
no sob story. There's no attempt to rescue her.
46:03
It is just straight up straight up. She is just
46:05
a manipulator and a scammer and she wins in the
46:09
end. I mean it is completely actually this is
46:11
the last thing I'm gonna say. Okay. I didn't
46:13
think about this before. But of course, she is
46:15
in this sense. She is Tom Ripley, right? Identity,
46:21
and that she gets away with doing all of these
46:24
terrible things. I mean, I definitely didn't
46:26
root for her in the way that I do. I hate to
46:28
say it, root for Tom Ripley. But I think that
46:30
there's also Ripley DNA in there, too, along
46:33
with Double Indemnity. There's definitely Ripley
46:35
DNA. I mean, again, she is only sympathetic in
46:39
the in the fact that she has this power grip
46:41
and that she's so magnetic, but of course she's
46:44
not emotionally sympathetic. I mean, I'm like,
46:48
this woman is a total bitch. I don't want to
46:50
be her friend or anything. And she seems to have
46:52
no friends, right? Right. I mean, but she's interesting.
46:55
She's interesting. And again, in the same Sharon
46:57
Stone, in all of that, like total... Femme fatale,
47:01
beyond, Black Widow, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah,
47:04
yeah. Maneater, so... It was, yeah. so i have
47:07
to say i probably won't be watching the last
47:09
seduction too no no i And I don't know why they
47:13
made it. But I didn't know that there was one
47:15
until I finished watching it on whatever I watched.
47:18
Oh, yeah. Pluto. And it was like, you might be
47:21
interested in The Last Seduction 2. I'm like,
47:24
no thanks. Played by a lesser version of Fiorentino
47:29
and then like a lesser Peter. She seduces some
47:33
other person. Like The Basic Instinct 2. Yeah,
47:36
yeah, yeah. It was one of those. OK, wait, this
47:37
is actually really the last thing I want to say.
47:39
I don't know if you thought this, but at some
47:41
particular points in the film, I was like, what
47:43
would this film be like if Laura San Giacomo
47:47
was playing this role rather than Linda Fiorentino,
47:52
which I especially thought because of course
47:53
we just saw Laura San Giacomo in Margot Has Money
47:59
Troubles. But again, that same sort of again
48:03
kind of like Sex Lies and Videotape moment, which
48:06
is I think in 95, right? 94, 95. It's definitely
48:08
tapping into that. ethos and that universe. But
48:12
Linda Fiorentino also, I will say her look is
48:15
so important to the film. And I don't know if
48:19
Laura San Giacomo has that. Yeah, I agree. Because
48:24
the interesting thing about Linda Fiorentino
48:26
is that while she definitely has that classic
48:30
beauty, but also like that just hot sex, all
48:34
of it. And she has that noir hair, and she has
48:38
a lot of that kind of... Jill Hennessy vibes,
48:41
I was gonna say. Jill Hennessy Law and Order
48:43
vibes. I was like, which one came first? I'm
48:45
like, when did Jill Hennessy, when did, because
48:48
I was like, was it the case that this film was
48:50
before that? Because the whole hair, right, hanging,
48:53
the brunette hair hanging. But also the curl
48:55
around the side. Yes, exactly. And the masculine
48:58
sort of office wear. And she does have the Claire
49:01
outfits. Yes. But also a little bit of Jeanne Tripplehorn.
49:05
Yes, I agree. Okay. I agree. Yes. You are right.
49:09
The brunettes that have, but are very thin. Very
49:11
thin. Yep. The spike heels, the black nylons.
49:15
And like the stockings. Yes. Yep. That was a
49:18
thing. Yes, it was. And I appreciated seeing
49:21
it again. I did too. I did too. I'm glad in some
49:24
ways too like you know women don't wear stockings
49:27
in films anymore really and it's kind of cool
49:29
to see those thigh highs and like all that that
49:32
she has going on. But in our remaining time we
49:36
have about 10 -ish minutes so we want to talk
49:39
about a very different kind of film that involves
49:41
a lady scammer and that is the comedy Dirty Rotten
49:45
Scoundrels with Steve Martin and Michael Caine
49:48
and with Glenn Headley as a female a lady scammer.
49:50
Now I do believe it was made into a musical,
49:53
a Broadway musical. I was. I remember reading
49:55
that. I have not seen the Broadway musical. I
49:56
have not either, and nor do I think I wished
49:58
you, but I love this movie. It's great. It's
50:01
so fun. I loved it back in the day and I loved
50:04
it now. It's like, again, effervescent. And the
50:09
performances of these two guys are so fun. They're
50:12
so good. They're both at their A game. And it
50:16
is so much fun to see them riffing off one another
50:19
and doing their thing. And of course, the scenery
50:24
and the setting is amazing. And it's just so...
50:28
Good. It is so good. So for our listeners who
50:32
maybe have not seen it, although they should.
50:33
So we have basically two different scammers.
50:37
Michael Caine, who is playing a very, very successful
50:40
scammer, who tends to romance kind of as he says,
50:44
what corrupt wealthy ladies. I'm like Omaha.
50:47
Omaha. And he has this gorgeous villa, like in
50:51
the French Riviera. But then Steve Martin, an
50:53
American kind of small town, or small time hustler,
50:57
right, trying to get like $20 from someone from
50:59
a sob story. And they basically decide that they
51:03
are going to have a sort of competition to see
51:05
which one has to leave town. Because they can't
51:09
compete. Because they can't compete in the same
51:10
ladies, yes. And also, when Michael Caine meets
51:15
Steve Martin. Steve Martin, of course, is the
51:18
less trained hustler. And so there's this whole
51:21
kind of makeover of Steve Martin. Yes. Training
51:24
montage. Training montage where he learns to
51:27
be this debonair, you know, sophisticated. Although
51:30
we never really see him be that. No. He turns,
51:33
I mean, he turns the idea down eventually because,
51:35
you know, Michael Caine for a while has him being
51:37
his brother. Like a brother. That's horrible.
51:42
At the end, Steve Martin says, look, I'm going
51:45
to do it my way. You do it your way. And let's
51:47
see who can land this person first. Yes, this
51:51
is like a soap. Queen, so this supposed soap
51:54
company, Eris, that I don't even remember what's
51:57
her name. Janet. Thank you, Janet. And so we
52:00
have this actually genuinely funny setup where
52:05
Steve Martin is pretending to be in a wheelchair,
52:08
Michael Caine is pretending to be the doctor
52:10
who is supposed to be curing him, and hilarity
52:13
ensues. And with this very, very sweet woman,
52:19
the soap queen. Who just wants to make Steve
52:20
Martin well. He's a veteran of the Navy or something,
52:25
who knows what. Supposedly, yes. But he's in
52:26
a military uniform. That he got somewhere. That
52:29
he got somewhere. And the whole shtick is whichever
52:31
one gets $50 ,000 from her first wins the bet.
52:36
Right, and leaves. Yes. No, no, the person who
52:39
doesn't get the money has to leave. That's what
52:40
I'm saying. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. The person
52:42
who doesn't get the money has to leave. Leaves
52:44
the area. Yes. Okay, fine. And so there is then
52:48
a twist. Yes. Because the other thing is that
52:50
a particular Scammer is sort of out there that
52:56
Michael Caine knows about. He believes it is
52:58
Steve Martin. What is it? The Jackal. The Jackal.
53:01
Thank you. I was gonna say the Vulcan. I don't
53:02
know. Whatever. The Jackal. And so he believes
53:05
Steve Martin is the Jackal. But it turns out
53:08
that in fact it is Janet who is the Jackal. In
53:13
effect, just for fun, but she does also steal
53:15
a lot of money from them. And also we learned
53:19
that at some point that she's not actually the
53:23
daughter of a soap conglomerate in the United
53:27
States. She's part of her scam. She won some
53:32
soap contest and she's like a nobody. On this
53:35
like all expense paid trip to Europe. And so
53:37
she hasn't really have any money. And so Michael
53:39
Caine has a sort of change of heart because he
53:40
says, well, I only scam women who are wealthy.
53:42
I don't actually scam people who are poor and
53:46
poor and don't have the money. And he believes
53:49
her. And Steve Martin's like, well, whatever.
53:51
I don't care. I'll take the money. But in the
53:54
end, she does scam them. both. And we do have
53:57
this kind of low key love story between Steve
54:02
Martin and Glenn Headley. And where at first
54:05
it's part of the scam, but then we are sort of,
54:08
it's like, okay, are we supposed to think they
54:10
have feel actual feelings for each other? But
54:12
it's impossible to tell because all of this is
54:14
before we know that she also is a scammer. Right,
54:18
right. But we do I mean, one thing that is I
54:20
think so Great about this i mean everything's
54:23
great about it right i mean frank os really i
54:25
mean frank os can like do no wrong again he should
54:27
like direct every single movie. But we have been
54:30
this the sensibility i mean very strong that
54:34
these people are scammers but also that they're
54:37
kind of like victimless. Scammers, right? I mean,
54:40
this is very much the setup even at the very
54:42
end. Yes when we have this kind of group of people
54:45
that she has brought right now pretending to
54:48
be what a New York City real estate agent or
54:50
something and introduces Michael Caine as some
54:53
Australian whatever and But there there's a sense
54:57
that it's all it's all in fun. It's all in fun
55:00
It's all in jest, but they're really I mean,
55:02
but it's like so much fun in all of it and and
55:04
in Michael Caine who scams the American heiress
55:08
by pretending to be a prince. And you have these
55:11
women bowing and telling him he's a freedom fighter.
55:16
Again, there are no victims here, even though
55:19
there are potentially these women being scammed
55:22
out of millions of dollars and funding Michael
55:25
Caine's whole fabulous lifestyle. It's just all
55:30
good fun. But that's why it's so important that
55:33
we have the detail that part of his code is women
55:37
who are themselves corrupt. But again, he's not
55:40
just going for wealthy, nice women. Poor widows
55:43
who were left tons of money by their husbands
55:45
or something. But again, it seems at the end
55:48
that it's not quite clear if that's going to
55:50
be the way that it is. But nevertheless, we are
55:53
supposed to think, yes, it is all in fun. This
55:55
is how they make their money. It's a game. Nobody's
56:00
getting maced down their throat. No, and there's
56:02
also a hole in Michael Cain's world are his helpers
56:05
He has like three a policeman and a butler and
56:09
another guy who all help him anticipate the scams
56:13
and target the ladies and look for Steve Martin
56:16
and all of that and it's it's just very tongue
56:19
-in -cheek and yes and they make out with money
56:21
but but again nobody's rotting in jail there's
56:23
that moment where yes was in jail but this is
56:25
part of the sky right yes right there's nobody
56:28
who is completely taken and devastated. Yes.
56:33
From any of us. Yes. And again, Michael Caine,
56:35
as you said, right, as soon as he realizes or
56:37
believes, we should say, right, that Janet is,
56:39
in fact, this poor young woman who just happened
56:42
to win a trip, he backs out. And then of course,
56:45
Steve Martin also wants it to then be in effect
56:47
a sex bet. Right. Right. Which Michael Caine
56:49
refuses to do. Right. Right. Says, No, I don't
56:51
want any part of that. But then but then he gets
56:56
his comeuppance. Right. Of course, Steve Martin
56:58
gets his when his his money is in fact stolen
57:00
also. So we do, you know, that scene when Steve
57:04
Martin comes out of the wheelchair and Michael
57:07
Caine is sitting in the chair and it was so funny.
57:13
I mean, they're just, they're so funny. And I
57:16
can't remember the last Michael Caine comedy
57:19
that I've seen. And he is really so funny in
57:23
this. And they're both, they just play off each
57:26
other. No, their chemistry is amazing. They're
57:29
incredible together. They're really incredible
57:31
together. Well, you know, it's funny because
57:32
every year, my kids and I, we watch Muppet Christmas
57:36
Carol, which, and he plays Scrooge. And of course
57:39
a lot of that is funny right but he's not but
57:42
obviously it's not the same kind of thing but
57:44
yeah because i was thinking about that i'm like
57:46
what other i mean obviously he was in like what
57:49
alfie but that wasn't like a comedy comedy you
57:51
know way back in the 60s and i don't i mean i
57:54
could not yeah it's all these like dour christopher
57:57
nolan films now we talked about blame it on rio
58:01
which was so terrible and not a comedy or even
58:04
if it intended to be more like depressing he
58:07
doesn't do anything funny in that but Yeah, I
58:10
mean, the Christopher Nolan stuff and then, you
58:12
know, other movies that are very serious. But
58:16
this one, he just it's just it sparkles. It is.
58:19
It does sparkle again. So effervescent. You know,
58:22
although I will say because I was watching it
58:24
and particularly with you mentioned the police
58:25
captain, you know, is kind of helping him. The
58:27
police captain's name is Reneau. And I was like,
58:30
oh my God, this film is actually a take off on
58:32
Casablanca. And I was like, oh, so the little
58:36
kind of like love, I mean, not quite a love triangle,
58:38
right? But that you have the two men and the
58:39
women, Renault, the corrupt locals kind of police
58:42
captain who's sort of cheerful and like, let's
58:44
drink wine or whatever. And I was like, obviously,
58:46
I mean, it's just bizarre that it's making these
58:49
sort of Casablanca references, but I genuinely
58:52
think it is. I think it is. But it also has a
58:54
little James Bond to it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:56
And I mean, one of the scenes, I love them. most
58:59
is when they're at the, you know, the gambling
59:02
tables and Steve Martin takes the metal jacket
59:06
and puts it down to bet. And it's just like,
59:10
it's just priceless. It's priceless. I mean,
59:13
it's like, yeah. So I would highly recommend
59:16
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. It is so funny. And
59:19
for these, again, compared to these... other
59:22
texts that are so dark about scamming. This is
59:25
the most lighthearted scamming that you can possibly
59:29
enjoy. And I get, I mean, I totally agree with
59:31
you. And it's just, again, it's so much fun.
59:34
But I guess if we think about it in terms of
59:36
like our lady scammers, so because obviously
59:40
Glenn Headley, I mean, she's really, she is also
59:45
right. She's not doing a damsel in distress.
59:47
Her scam is based upon I'm in a position of power
59:50
and I can help you. Sure. Right. And so that's
59:54
interesting. So we're not getting this whole
59:56
like, oh, I'm this, you know, again, big doe
59:58
-eyed sort of woman who needs help, you know,
1:00:01
blah, blah, blah, blah. No, at the end, she's
1:00:02
like... But it's also not this like super hardcore,
1:00:04
like vicious bitch who's like, I'm gonna empty
1:00:06
a can of mace down your throat. No. In the end,
1:00:08
we're very happy the three of them will be working
1:00:10
together. Yes. I want to see what happens now.
1:00:12
I do too. I want a sequel to that. With the three
1:00:16
of them. I don't know, was there one? I should
1:00:19
have looked this up. You know, I think there
1:00:21
was a remake of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with
1:00:23
Anna Hathaway or something. I don't want to see
1:00:25
that. I don't want to see it either. I don't
1:00:26
want to see it either. But I just had to comment
1:00:28
on its existence. The performances make this
1:00:30
movie and the direction and all of it and every
1:00:33
scene is purposeful and it's just so terrific.
1:00:38
And Emperor Palpatine is in it from Star Wars.
1:00:43
And I was thinking, I was like, wait a minute.
1:00:45
I'm like, not only is that Emperor Palpatine,
1:00:47
I'm like, but Frank Oz directed this movie. I'm
1:00:50
like, this is weird, like, yeah, Star Wars sort
1:00:52
of thing. Yeah, so those are our scam. Lady scammers.
1:00:58
Lady scammers and thoughts about scamming. And
1:01:04
I think we've pretty much exhausted those texts.
1:01:09
I think so too, but I do I think the what we
1:01:12
also need to point out to sort of pull it all
1:01:14
together is again thinking of something like
1:01:17
you know the noir films from the 1940s right
1:01:21
again something like Double Indemnity. It is
1:01:24
interesting and you can write an article about
1:01:26
this Lauren since this is your field and not
1:01:28
mine. I think it is interesting in terms of saying
1:01:31
How do we track writ large the changes in cultural
1:01:35
representation going from someone like Barbara
1:01:38
Stanwyck in Double Indemnity to our representations
1:01:43
now? And certainly, Elizabeth Holmes is a very
1:01:46
different model of that. And but in a sense,
1:01:49
you know, Elizabeth Holmes also kind of has her
1:01:51
Barbara Stanwyck vibes, right? Again, the woman
1:01:53
who is like, I'm so vulnerable, and I am so weak,
1:01:57
and you need to feel sorry for me and kind of
1:01:59
look the other way while I bilk you out of something.
1:02:02
So I think in terms of again, setting it against
1:02:04
changes in feminism. Yeah. I think, and again,
1:02:07
you need to write an article about this. And
1:02:09
lots of evolution and lots of, and again, lots
1:02:12
of, one, the interesting thing I would say, and
1:02:14
just tying to the plot in general and the themes,
1:02:16
is that obviously Nathan Fielder is directing
1:02:19
this, the most recent text with arguably the
1:02:25
least empowered woman. And not to say that we
1:02:28
don't have male directors in the other ones,
1:02:29
because we do, but that both Janet and Linda
1:02:34
Ferentino, are incredibly empowered. Unquestionably.
1:02:40
There's no vulnerability in either one of them.
1:02:45
And Elizabeth Holmes, we will go back and forth
1:02:48
on that. And it's interesting that the most recent
1:02:51
is the one where we're like, well, maybe we should
1:02:54
feel bad for her because of X, Y, and Z. Yeah,
1:02:56
that's a good point. But we never would have
1:02:59
described her as disempowered when she was sitting
1:03:03
next to Bill Clinton. No, Wunshu is running the
1:03:06
company. Yeah. And so then it's like, as Nathan
1:03:09
Fielder says, how did you get here? Right? How
1:03:12
did you get to be this sort of now broken kind
1:03:15
of power, seemingly powerless woman? And yeah,
1:03:19
it's because of things that she did anyway. Maybe
1:03:23
she just needs to put the red lip back on. Maybe.
1:03:26
And all those millions of black shuttle necks.
1:03:30
I don't know how many... I don't know how, as
1:03:32
much as I love a capsule wardrobe, I don't know
1:03:35
how you can have the same capsule wardrobe. That
1:03:39
shot of her closet in the earlier documentary.
1:03:41
Yes, the shot of her closet is something. It
1:03:44
is. It is. Because again, while you see her wearing
1:03:48
the same outfit and she's like, well, I do it
1:03:51
because I just don't have the time to think about
1:03:53
it. It's like, well, girl, you could wear a white.
1:03:56
turtleneck under a black suit. You could mix
1:04:00
it up a little bit. But here's the but it's back
1:04:04
to you know and obviously one thing that like
1:04:06
all of our things have in common is this question
1:04:08
of persona. Yes. Right. And what to me the single
1:04:11
most interesting thing that she says in the Nathan
1:04:13
Fielder documentary is when she and he doesn't
1:04:16
follow up with it is when she explicitly says
1:04:18
that was a role I was playing. Right. Right.
1:04:21
Right. And it's like Okay, now you need to ask
1:04:23
her 20 more questions. Right. That was a role
1:04:26
I was playing. Right. And obviously, I mean,
1:04:29
this is the heart of Our Lady Scammers. Right.
1:04:32
Who are they? Yes. And now she's just playing
1:04:34
and now she's just playing another role. And
1:04:36
now she has a different outfit. Right. Now her
1:04:39
hair is messy. Right. And she's wearing no makeup
1:04:42
and wearing sweater, jeans. And right. Yeah.
1:04:46
That was a role I was playing. Yeah. Let's ask
1:04:49
more questions about that. We could ask questions
1:04:52
about that endlessly. We could. We could. So
1:04:55
we will think about some new texts for next time.
1:04:59
We will. We have gotten past Halloween, so we'll
1:05:01
probably pass our, like, spooky moment, but maybe
1:05:04
we can get into, I don't know, new ideas and...
1:05:08
So many things to talk about, Lauren. So many
1:05:10
things to talk about. We are heading into Oscar
1:05:12
season. We are. The bait's coming. All new movies
1:05:16
and... I am particularly excited because the
1:05:19
Gilded Age is on tonight. Which I did not know
1:05:21
until you told me, so I'm very excited. This
1:05:23
is something to look forward to. Oh, and also,
1:05:26
no, I think maybe next time we were thinking
1:05:28
about possibly talking about the media that shows
1:05:31
us ladies in their 40s and 50s having all of
1:05:34
these sexual romantic hot men opportunities.
1:05:37
I'm down for that. I am down for that in all
1:05:41
kinds of ways. All kinds, all kinds. So, yeah.
1:05:44
Oh, and there is an example even in the Gilded
1:05:47
Age. What's the example of the Gilded Age? That
1:05:49
Larry is with that old man. Oh, yeah. I forgot
1:05:52
about that. I forgot about that. Just to bring
1:05:57
it all back. All the time. All the time. Just
1:05:59
to bring it all back. Okay. Well, on that note
1:06:01
then. All right. So, we appreciate you listening
1:06:05
and until next time. Until next time. Harvey's
1:06:08
out.