Latest / Off The Shelf With Phil and Dave- A Movie Review Podcast / 1988's Eight Men Out

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1988's Eight Men Out · Off The Shelf With Phil and Dave- A Movie Review Podcast

• 0:01
  Hello and welcome to Off the Shelf with Phil and Dave, the
• 0:06
  movie talk show. For each week, one of us takes a
• 0:07
  movie off our shelf presents it to the other for discussion.
• 0:20
  This week, coming off Phil's shelf, 1988, eight men out.
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  Now, Phillip, I have you on tape saying multiple times throughout
• 0:31
  the years, I've got a whole file folder on it.
• 0:33
  You hate baseball. So why is this particular movie
• 0:38
  on your shelf? Well David, I hate to admit it,
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  but I am confirming that I hate baseball.
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  Always have since my early young days.
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  But what is equally true and should be available in those
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  same folders is my love of baseball movies.
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  Field of Dreams came off my shelf.
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  We did Moneyball. Yeah, that's off your show.
• 0:58
  That's off my. Shirt I loved.
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  It you did, you also did A League of Their Own, so this
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  will be your third baseball movie, minimum.
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  I've done only two and I'm the baseball guy.
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  If you think about the movies I've taken off, they're less
• 1:11
  about baseball, more about the human condition.
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  Well, this one's. About gambling, so maybe I can
• 1:16
  see you're in there. You go on that one because
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  you're in one of those categories of gambling summer
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  later, that's OK, you fall into one of.
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  Those that's exciting. I will say, David, you're also a
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  little bit of a gambler, am I? That's all fantasy football is,
• 1:30
  buddy. No one even paid me this year.
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  I won. I received nothing.
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  Like some of these ballplayers. I didn't get anything.
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  I'm Bucky Weaver here. I got nothing in the room.
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  I was you fall. Orchestrated.
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  You were involved. But didn't receive nothing but
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  my own trial and you're in the league.
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  I'm in the league, Bucks. I'm sorry, I don't.
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  You're you're a strong man of faith, and I won't.
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  Lead you to. Temptation with A10.
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  Bucks, my wife appreciates that. Thank you.
• 1:58
  She actually probably appreciate you getting 10 bucks.
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  At this point, yeah, touché, get off your ass.
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  Well, let me get off my ass and give everybody the synopsis from
• 2:10
  IMDb. All faithful.
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  That's correct. Short and sweet lazy flyball.
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  A dramatization of the Black Sox scandal, when underpaid Chicago
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  White Sox accepted bribes to deliberately lose the 1919 World
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  Series. That's in a nutshell.
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  They couldn't even say against the Cincinnati Reds.
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  Did you know that the original name of the Reds?
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  Red logs, Red stockings, Red stockings.
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  OK, All right. What's the obsession with
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  baseball and socks, footwear and birds?
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  Yeah, sure. But I'm really thinking about
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  the stockings. The Red Sox, White Sox and Red
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  Stockings. There's too many socks
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  happening. They did switch to red logs
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  later. OK that's a slip up.
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  In this movie they mentioned red logs.
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  I didn't know they were ever called red logs.
• 3:00
  Why would you? Yeah.
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  What's a red? Lock.
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  Sure. What's the Reds?
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  They're a bunch of communists, right?
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  Like. Yeah, it's interesting.
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  We don't put much stock into the meaning of their name sometimes.
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  Sure, Knickerbockers. Is that underwear?
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  That's that's just knickers. That's just knickers.
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  And then some names have obviously changed for valid
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  reasons. It's interesting when.
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  It's your point birds and such, right?
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  Like that's like, oh, that's just a local favorite thing,
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  right. But when it's something else,
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  it's like, where did that come? From Is there a lot of giants in
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  San Francisco? Ohe yeah for sure.
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  Absolutely. Thought all people been there.
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  It's nothing but giants. There are a few giant names in
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  this movie, but I will say there's a lot of B players in
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  this. B players.
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  B players instead of having like a big leading man.
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  Gotcha. You have a bunch of pretty good
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  guys and that's really how you win games.
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  So you look at the Las Vegas Knights.
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  Yeah, Golden Knights. Golden Knights, they became good
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  pretty quickly after the entry draft.
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  If you remember back with 31, yeah, and that's because they
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  harvested second liners from like all over the league.
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  We're back when Ottawa and Tampa came in, they were garbage for
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  how many years? Right?
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  Really. You were getting fourth line
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  wingers playing on the. First line in Peter Sidorowicz
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  are not. Yeah, the cup.
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  I like something in between. It's Kraken.
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  Yeah, exactly. In the middle, I don't know.
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  Well, cracking they end up I think they came in at the same
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  time as Golden Knights or. The no no.
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  Couple years later, yeah. So I think they actually kind of
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  course corrected. Because maybe they did give
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  expansion team a cup in two years.
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  Exactly right. Something's gone wrong over
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  tweaks. But that's to me anyway, when
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  you have people like John Cusack, Christopher Lloyd,
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  Charlie Sheen, Michael Lerner, Charlie Sheen's never been a
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  lead for me. Platoon hot shot.
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  I think I missed his Major League.
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  I missed his career. Wall Street.
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  Yeah, I missed all that. Yeah.
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  It helps when you watch movies. Yeah, I suppose so.
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  I guess he was big. Yeah, in the 80s around this
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  time. Yeah, before his star fall and
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  went to television. Right.
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  Let me make my own course correction here.
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  But generally speak for sure. It's a big cast.
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  Yeah, I should just said that. But he's got a couple of
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  favorites. You know, David Strathairn we've
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  talked about before, just great. Michael Rooker we haven't talked
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  about before. But it's just a fresh wind of
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  air. Absolutely.
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  You know, the old saying goes. Yeah, yeah.
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  Or that the other day actually hardly enough.
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  And Bill Irwin, who I only really know from 2 movies, he
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  was really excellent in Rachel Getting Married, which will come
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  off eventually, but he's in Popeye and I just love him in
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  Popeye. Oh yeah, yeah, I'll take Popeye
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  off the shelf and give it a listen.
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  No swirl, no rush. Although I just did buy a big
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  bag of spinach. OK.
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  So we're ready for it. Yeah, my wife out of town for
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  like 12 days. Like I have to buy one thing
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  that's healthy for me. And you went with spinach?
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  With spinach I'll put it on some wrap.
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  Super fruit. It is vitamin K.
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  Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah.
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  Now, I knew a lot of these guys were in this movie because I had
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  seen this movie once before, alright, but they just kept
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  popping up. I forgot about John Mahoney.
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  Oh yeah, that I'm sure tickled your real.
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  Nice. Really.
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  Did we have John Anderson in the credits?
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  You probably don't know who that is.
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  Bringing. Immediate Bill, I'll reveal that
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  a little bit later. So I'm not going in completely
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  blind in this movie, but it's just like kept comrade coming,
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  yeah. Yeah, it's a list of great
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  names. And the first time I watched
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  this movie, I watched 8 review, of course, on the old black box.
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  Yeah. And it just blew me away.
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  I was like, I love everybody in this movie.
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  And at the time I didn't really know everybody.
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  I'd seen many of them before. Popeye, Bill or Charlie Sheen
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  obviously was at his heyday. No, but I was just blown away by
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  the cast and John Sayles was yet to be familiar with and he would
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  grow to love him. He wrote and directed the movie
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  and is in it as well. We'll talk about, but I thought
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  it's probably one of the best cat other than maybe a Glengarry
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  Glen Ross. One of the those are all A
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  players on some level, and here, to your point, the B players.
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  I mean, you got Gordon Clapp. A great, stellar lineup of
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  actors and I think everybody's firing on all cylinders.
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  This is a exceptionally well performed active movie.
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  I would say one stands out more than the rest, and I know you
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  know what I'm talking about, but we'll get we'll get there.
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  What's also interesting about all these characters is how
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  they're introduced into the movie with the credits.
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  Oh, yes. Like the music I love.
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  It's my jam. Yeah, I listened to this old
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  timey, 20s, thirties, 40s music. I just love it.
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  I love. These sense of innocence that I
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  hear in it, I don't want to say simpler times because I don't
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  mean it like that of course, just it feels good.
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  Yeah, it's like kind of ragtime vibe.
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  There's like a lot of banjo and big band and trumpets and it
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  just I really. Love it.
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  It just feels like a stress free, yeah, like you can just
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  relax. A white guy?
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  Man, you were probably stressed. Right there back then, yeah.
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  But I'm living now. Terrible people.
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  Yeah, absolutely. We didn't know what.
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  That. I think we did, yeah.
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  They liked it, yeah. And it's a great song.
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  You know, after you've gone, you probably don't remember, but
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  it's it pivotal song in all that jazz at the end of that movie.
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  It's about remembrance and things like that and the things
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  you'll miss when you're gone and people that will miss you.
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  And I think it's appropriate for this movie, considering the
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  subject matter or these eight people that never played again.
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  You know, you'll miss us when you're gone kind of ideology is
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  in that song. So as an extra error of death,
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  and if you'll allow me a little bit of digging, don't I always.
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  Now there's one way to look at this.
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  Of course, the credits both rise, if you recall, and then
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  they fall and someone might say, oh, well, that's like a
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  baseball, right? You hit the ball, it goes up, it
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  goes down, it lands. Gravity is your.
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  Friend, if there's a flyball, yeah.
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  But it's also perhaps metaphorical for the team
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  itself. We watch them effectively peak,
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  and then there are in the World Series favored to win and
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  squander it. So there's a way to look at the
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  credits as that we have Comiskey owner and he is talking about
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  how great and tight knit this ball club is and they're the
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  best players and they're upstanding young citizens of the
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  city and good stewards of baseball.
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  He's fun to listen to. Oh, he's great, yeah.
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  Very articulated. And he's fun voice, Yeah.
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  And we're cross cutting that with the team on the field
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  busting balls with college boy in particular by Bill Irwin.
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  Yeah. Collins wouldn't kill you guys
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  to go to sleep once, you know, every once in a while.
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  So I'm like, OK, so there is a discord there, but he's trying
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  to oversell it and that's OK. And then we also have
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  Christopher Lloyd as Billy Burns.
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  Billy Burns, huh? Former player Billy Burns.
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  Yeah. And he is chatting with Bill.
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  Bill, another boxer. Bill Bahag.
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  Or something. Yeah.
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  And they're trying to get a feel.
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  They're looking around thinking how do we make a little money on
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  this? You know what's interesting
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  about this introduction of those guys specifically?
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  Had I not seen this movie before, I would have been
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  confused. I understood Inception better
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  than certain exposition points in this movie, especially at the
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  beginning. Because they didn't spend 7
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  minutes telling you maybe. There's just a lot of people,
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  and they all have the hat on. Yeah.
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  So who's who? Who's working for?
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  Who are the gamblers? Who's the sports writers?
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  Yeah. So I struggled a little bit this
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  time, OK, But I was able to get through pretty quick because I
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  more or less knew what I was getting into.
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  But for a new viewer. Yeah, at the beginning it might
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  be a little bit confusing, but certainly by the end you're
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  like, OK, Sullivan, I know him. He's always in the shady
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  business. I think the other part of it is,
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  is there talking like it's 1919? I don't know what you're saying.
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  Sure. Like I don't get the lingo.
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  Yeah, so it could be a little problematic.
• 10:31
  It's my favorite part of it is things like the Hudsucker Proxy,
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  which we'll talk about, but just the Ratatat type of dialogue.
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  When we get a Patel later, we'll get into all of this.
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  But when he's sort of, yeah, you're a chump, you're a bum,
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  You're right. All of that.
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  I did I like. It I just sometimes don't get it
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  which is not abnormal. Into the archives.
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  Yeah. So having those elements allow
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  the audience because he says chick gandil.
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  And then they cut to Michael Rooker hat fells.
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  Oh well, that's Charlie Sheen oht Bucky Weaver.
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  He doesn't like to lose. There's John Cusack, right.
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  So I like. Not liking to lose.
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  Exactly. Again, I complaining, right.
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  So you have this shorthand, this very economical way with a cast
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  this big, it's the and everyone's wearing the same
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  uniforms. Everyone kind of got the same.
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  Vibe, this is the way. It's an opportunity to really
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  put a face to a name immediately and I thought that's really
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  clever. It's the only way to do it.
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  One thing I didn't like, and it bothers me was the Joe Jackson
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  introduction with the Heckler. Yeah, that's.
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  Terrible. I'm with you.
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  Just so on the nose and mean yes, but the comeback terrible.
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  And then he just sits down. That's it.
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  You don't humbled it. Doesn't humble you.
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  They people don't give up like spell shit like yeah, I'm like,
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  this is just. That's the least favorite part
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  of the movie, is that right? There it is.
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  Yeah, yeah. So I'm with you.
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  It's one of the rare times where you're ridiculous nitpick is my
• 11:57
  ridiculous nitpick. They're just so focused on the
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  Heckler and the way he just sits down in the midst defeat after
• 12:03
  one little comeback. Good one.
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  It might be the reason it doesn't end up on my shelf.
• 12:07
  Wow. I don't know if that's the
• 12:09
  impetus. Actually it isn't.
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  There is something else a little bit later that this one.
• 12:13
  We can get through OK, that's a foul ball.
• 12:15
  We can move on from this, we can move on.
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  Well, let's watch the taste of shit out of our mouths and head
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  to the bar with all Chick Gandil, who we established.
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  He's a player. He's a guy that might get into
• 12:36
  it, according to Christopher Lloyd, Yeah, but we see him with
• 12:38
  a different character. Sports, Sullivan.
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  Sports Sullivan the man. Sounds like Sam Neal.
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  Listen to him. A little bit.
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  Just a little bit, yeah. I find his accent to be a little
• 12:49
  bit questionable in this but. I liked it though.
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  Me too, I was drawn to. It yeah, this got a little smirk
• 12:54
  out time He's an interesting. Face are those hookers?
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  I believe. OK, yeah, but sure they look.
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  Like, oh, I know. You know, I know I would say
• 13:04
  Rooker as an actor, I don't really know.
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  OK, that's on me. That's on you.
• 13:08
  I wasn't on a TV. Show No, it was not Bosh or
• 13:11
  Monk, but if anybody on this team might accept an offer,
• 13:17
  yeah, this is the guy. Absolutely.
• 13:19
  Yeah. Whatever you want.
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  And he's not a dumb guy. That whole boxing story.
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  Play the angle. Yeah, I don't have to beat you
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  to a pulp. Break your jaw.
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  Let's split the 50 bucks and go a couple rounds.
• 13:30
  That's it make a nice show of it.
• 13:31
  Yeah. Which boxing is another sport
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  100 perceptible to this sort of situation here.
• 13:37
  And I mean, it's indicative. It's everywhere you turn.
• 13:39
  And that's a big, big example. Like, you know, who do you trust
• 13:42
  even most recently with Tyson and Logan Paul or one of the
• 13:45
  Paul? Ohe yeah, yeah.
• 13:46
  One of the whole thing is it's like a money grab.
• 13:49
  Yeah. Like, what are we doing?
• 13:50
  Yeah. I can't trust anybody.
• 13:51
  Netflix put it on. I don't trust that it's real.
• 13:53
  Like, it's just I don't trust anything anymore.
• 13:55
  It's it's hard. It's really hard.
• 13:57
  It is. But it's fun to watch these
• 13:59
  things in this era. Yes.
• 14:01
  Just the difference of technology and how information
• 14:05
  gets out there. It's a different setting, right?
• 14:08
  Like it's A different world. We've looked around and accepted
• 14:10
  these changes that have happened over all these years, but it's
• 14:12
  everything incremental. So movie set in 1919, eight in
• 14:16
  1988, watched in 2026. It's quite the right, like we
• 14:21
  have a lot of other stuff in there to mess with it.
• 14:24
  But in 1919, you only know you're very little prism, you
• 14:27
  know? And boxing, yes, obviously was
• 14:30
  riddled, but you couldn't have foreseen, I don't think, what
• 14:32
  the world looks like 100 years. Later and similar to Gandel, I
• 14:35
  think Swede Risberg Esberg shortstop played by Don Harvey,
• 14:40
  your boy I heard two fame. That's true, yes.
• 14:46
  I was wondering where I saw that Facebook.
• 14:48
  Before 1 of the bad guys in the. Airport, that's it.
• 14:50
  Couple years after this or a year after this?
• 14:51
  And I think he's fantastic in this movie.
• 14:54
  Yeah. I don't think he's a very good
• 14:55
  guy, no. He's got some questionable
• 14:58
  boundaries. Yeah, like he's very quickly.
• 15:02
  As in as you. Could he doesn't have any sort
• 15:04
  of moral dilemmas that some of the other players?
• 15:07
  Yeah, I think he, Chick and McMullen in this movie have no
• 15:12
  moments, regret or hesitation or anything.
• 15:16
  And I think that is well conveyed just in terms of
• 15:19
  character and performance and real.
• 15:21
  But I think it's interesting to know that like, even in the
• 15:25
  murkiness, these guys are like, Nope, we're good.
• 15:28
  But you need these guys. Of course you grease the.
• 15:31
  Wheels. One thing that is revealed at
• 15:33
  this moment, this, this is not going to work without.
• 15:37
  Eddie yeah, they established a couple of pictures heavy hitters
• 15:40
  and you need Eddie for. Sure.
• 15:42
  Pitchers control half the game, Phillip.
• 15:44
  Interesting. There's some defence which we'll
• 15:46
  see soon. He's questionable defence, yes,
• 15:49
  but yeah, for sure. And the catcher to a lesser
• 15:51
  extent, which maybe they will when I'll get him involved too.
• 15:54
  Yeah, I think that's an interesting dynamic that plays
• 15:56
  out throughout the movie. This is the battle between,
• 15:58
  yeah, a good, honest catcher and a less than honest pitcher.
• 16:03
  And how that relationship works I think is interesting.
• 16:06
  It's like Clinton and Blair. This is a special relationship.
• 16:10
  Really. It really is.
• 16:12
  True or not, it really helps us. Movie work.
• 16:15
  Yeah. Because if you get them both on
• 16:16
  the same side, there's a lot of moments that can't happen in
• 16:20
  this movie. Yeah, of course the drama is
• 16:22
  there, right? And certainly the way Gordon
• 16:23
  Clapp plays that you feel his frustration in a way that I
• 16:28
  think is really great his. Passion for the game I would.
• 16:30
  Absolutely, for love of it. But to get Eddie, he needs a
• 16:34
  motive. I get the impression he's a
• 16:36
  pretty straight shooter and we're at this point in the movie
• 16:39
  and just in general is I'm not on the player side at all, OK?
• 16:42
  I don't necessarily know the salaries of these players.
• 16:46
  So we put this into today, 2026, these guys are making millions,
• 16:49
  find millions upon millions of dollars.
• 16:51
  Yeah, that's real money. You don't need more.
• 16:54
  What do you got to complain about, Right.
• 16:55
  Yeah, Yeah. So that is not a way that you
• 16:57
  would flip a guy. But here, OK, yeah, maybe
• 17:00
  they're not making that much money.
• 17:03
  Well, at the very least it's the bonuses, right?
• 17:05
  Like in this instance that he's looking for his bonus 30 games.
• 17:09
  Only 129. That's it.
• 17:11
  You know it's not 30 is 29. And Kaminski makes no bones
• 17:14
  about it. He's flat out.
• 17:15
  You get what you're paid for and.
• 17:17
  You get what you're value but he benched him.
• 17:19
  For two weeks in August. Five games would have one, at
• 17:23
  least two or three, and I believe him.
• 17:26
  Yeah, he's establishes like kind of the a sky they've got, even
• 17:29
  if he's a little long in the tooth.
• 17:30
  The first time I watched this, similar to the Heckler, a little
• 17:34
  on the nose about Comiskey Is cheap The champagne.
• 17:39
  Yeah, flat champagne. It's just not in his best
• 17:42
  interest to be this cheap, because what happens when you're
• 17:47
  this cheap? Sure, you pay for it.
• 17:48
  Yeah, right. Ultimately.
• 17:50
  Exactly. Grand scheme revolt.
• 17:51
  And the beginning to contrast They were drinking.
• 17:54
  Oh yeah, he's got the bubbly up with his.
• 17:56
  Journalist and they're smashing the glass in the fireplace, you
• 17:58
  know, hearing about. That yeah, it's not your thing.
• 18:00
  Who has to clean up the glass? That's way low.
• 18:03
  Yeah, I don't know. Back then, I don't know.
• 18:06
  So at this point, I didn't like how much they portrayed him as a
• 18:09
  cheap guy. But maybe he really was a cheap
• 18:11
  guy. They don't want to spend 3 hours
• 18:14
  showing it. So here's the champagne.
• 18:17
  Here's Eddie's motive, at the very least.
• 18:19
  And now I'm like, OK, I can sort of understand why they would do.
• 18:24
  This sure you're beating down, right?
• 18:25
  Like that's the whole thing. When they're at their lowest,
• 18:27
  that's when they do things they wouldn't otherwise do.
• 18:30
  And if you're thinking like you're saying I'm not valued, I
• 18:33
  know a way to get ahead and he's already been presented with the
• 18:36
  opportunity. Exactly.
• 18:37
  So check. And this is where you're going
• 18:40
  to talk a lot about him. But Strathern is just killing
• 18:43
  it. Watching him wrestle with that
• 18:45
  decision from leaving Comiskey on his way to seeing Swede and
• 18:50
  saying I'm in 10 grand under my pillow before game one.
• 18:54
  You're just like God that you wrestled with it in ways that
• 18:57
  the three we just talked about. Didn't wrestle with anything.
• 19:00
  I was wondering, is this the best character or is this the
• 19:03
  best performance? Or is it probably both?
• 19:06
  Both, and he probably got it because he's probably the best
• 19:08
  actor in the movie, arguably. I mean, he's just an incredible
• 19:11
  actor. We talked about him in sneakers.
• 19:14
  Memphis Belle. Memphis Belle, Yes.
• 19:17
  JB Sweeney like. TV.
• 19:20
  Sweeney TV, JB. This is Curb Your Enthusiasm.
• 19:25
  JB. Smooth.
• 19:26
  And there are other performances that I like in this movie, and
• 19:29
  I'm glad I did because like I said earlier, I did find some of
• 19:33
  the gambling confusing to who's paying who, who's putting money
• 19:39
  on what. I got the general idea, but
• 19:43
  Lerner, Michael Lerner, Michael, thank you.
• 19:47
  Plays a gentleman named Ross Stein, and he seems to be the
• 19:50
  biggest guy, not the big guy in Boston, which is sports.
• 19:54
  Sullivan That's right. This guy's a little bit bigger.
• 19:57
  Literally. But here he is introduced in
• 20:01
  this scene. What are your thoughts around
• 20:02
  that? It's one of my favorite scenes
• 20:04
  in the whole movie. It in part because it is so
• 20:07
  specific, Targeted if you will, Rothstein.
• 20:11
  Is got some good. Dialogue, an interesting
• 20:13
  character, historical character, right?
• 20:15
  Watch, you know, Boardwalk Empire on television and he
• 20:19
  plays a big part in that. But fundamentally, he's a guy
• 20:21
  that was in that world, big gambler, head of a family, this
• 20:23
  kind of thing. And he is played expertly by
• 20:29
  Michael. Michael Lerner here, yeah, he's
• 20:30
  been in a lot. I don't know what he's seen him
• 20:33
  around. But one of the things in this
• 20:35
  scene, he's talking about the ethos of gambling in particular,
• 20:39
  and he's fighting with a battalion.
• 20:40
  Abe is trying to convince him on this thing, but he's smart.
• 20:43
  He's looking at the big picture, but at one point he challenges
• 20:47
  Abe to say, how much money did you make?
• 20:49
  And he said on the legit fights are the ones I threw.
• 20:51
  I don't even care. I guarantee I made 10 times the
• 20:54
  amount that you did and I never took a punch.
• 20:57
  And if you're thinking about getting into gambling or
• 20:59
  anything like that, that's the reason the Russian is looking at
• 21:03
  that big picture. And anytime Atel is trying to
• 21:06
  fight against it, he says, I was the champion yesterday, which is
• 21:09
  my favorite thing. I have the champagne.
• 21:12
  They don't use that word. Enough.
• 21:13
  Not anymore, But yeah. And he says yesterday.
• 21:15
  Doesn't matter, doesn't matter. I have the money you made and
• 21:19
  you tank. You're nobody.
• 21:20
  Yeah, it's just that jockey nerd dynamic.
• 21:22
  Totally. But it's also the crux of the
• 21:24
  whole movie is in that they're all making more money than the
• 21:27
  players are, and they're not to do anything, have to train.
• 21:29
  You don't have to do any of the effort to win a game or lose a
• 21:33
  game. This guy just gets to put a
• 21:34
  little money on it and walk away.
• 21:35
  Gambling man, have a thing? It's pretty magical.
• 21:38
  It's pretty magical. I think to me, I was thinking
• 21:41
  about gambling and I feel like there's 5 levels of gambling.
• 21:45
  Hear me out on this one. Level 1.
• 21:47
  Scratch ticket. That's my sweet spot right
• 21:49
  there. Yeah, that's.
• 21:49
  Where why have you and the second category?
• 21:52
  Level 1 is where I start. I had a.
• 21:53
  Real problem. That's real problem.
• 21:55
  Me too. I'm with you buddy.
• 21:57
  Category 2 is the slots. Oh yeah, sure.
• 22:01
  Either on the phone or at a casino and then category 3 horse
• 22:05
  racing. I have it in its own little
• 22:07
  thing. OK alright.
• 22:08
  Cause I don't right place or show.
• 22:10
  I don't know. It's because maybe because the
• 22:12
  horse doesn't know what's going on.
• 22:14
  I was just here. Exactly why we go all the way
• 22:18
  around. This is where we start.
• 22:20
  Who started? So you can't pay off the horse.
• 22:22
  Really, it's true if the horse knew.
• 22:25
  Let's take it easy. Take it easy.
• 22:28
  Great bet. And then category 4 would be
• 22:32
  sports gambling. OK.
• 22:34
  Yeah. And that's a big one.
• 22:35
  It's ever growing, too. Yeah, maybe we'll talk a little
• 22:37
  later about how that's changed over the years.
• 22:39
  Certainly has. And then the last one is the
• 22:41
  stupid stuff because we're so bored.
• 22:43
  Fantasy football. No Gatorade.
• 22:45
  Like not just betting on the winners and losers.
• 22:47
  Oh, he makes a throw in the third quarter to Billy Johnson
• 22:52
  on the 20 yard line and then picks his nose afterwards.
• 22:55
  Yeah, they're just desperate to gamble on something.
• 22:57
  Totally just not the game. And I think that's just getting
• 22:59
  a little ridiculous, in my opinion.
• 23:01
  I'm not a gambler at all. No, other than fantasy football,
• 23:05
  that I don't get paid by health, yeah.
• 23:08
  But anyways, it's polluted. Is that kind of thing, is that
• 23:13
  it's so easily manipulated because you're betting on every
• 23:15
  little thing. You can see everyone's getting
• 23:18
  red. Yeah, I'm just reaching for the
• 23:21
  green Gatorade then, cause I can do that And I if I know somebody
• 23:25
  or don't know somebody, doesn't matter, but I'm just going to
• 23:27
  screw with the odds like I'm inactive moment changing the
• 23:31
  outcome of something based on someone else's prediction.
• 23:34
  And the way the gambling works now is I already know that the
• 23:39
  odds are one to one that it's going to be red.
• 23:41
  So I'm going to go green and whoever is the guy that bet
• 23:43
  green is going to make a killing.
• 23:45
  It's fucked up that you can change it in such a quick way.
• 23:47
  Just a world that I don't see myself being involved in in any
• 23:51
  of those categories. Yeah, now you scratched tickets.
• 23:56
  I totally get it. I get a lot of joy out of it,
• 23:58
  but it's fleeting, Yeah, it's not very fulfilling, so I get
• 24:02
  it. If I had won a lot of money
• 24:03
  though. Yeah.
• 24:04
  Right. Like that's what it comes down
• 24:05
  to if you're really good at it as quote UN quote, right?
• 24:07
  Like I would rather do that than have to do something else.
• 24:09
  You know everyone wants the free ride.
• 24:19
  When they're on the train, Cusack, who happens to be in the
• 24:22
  room, yes, he's out. It's not hard.
• 24:25
  No, because he's interested, I think, in at least hearing of
• 24:28
  it. I think it's the team aspect,
• 24:29
  because you want to be a part of the team, and I get that you
• 24:32
  want to be a team player. I also want to recognize that if
• 24:35
  the team is going down, what's the difference?
• 24:38
  Sure. That's the question that movie
• 24:39
  kind of asks. The first pitch hasn't even been
• 24:42
  thrown yet, right? So it's really just sort of
• 24:43
  theoretical, like, oh, listen, maybe there's something here.
• 24:46
  But yeah, he's very noncommittal.
• 24:48
  But it seems at this point they have enough guys because they
• 24:51
  have the pictures, right? Lefty is in.
• 24:54
  I don't like Lefty. I'll say it right now.
• 24:55
  I'm just not a fan of left gold. Can't make up his own mind up
• 24:59
  for himself. Just does what Eddie does.
• 25:01
  OK, I don't like lefties. Maybe that's.
• 25:03
  It I was going to say maybe this is a little deeper meeting now.
• 25:06
  I love my dad left. This takes us right into game
• 25:09
  one. Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:11
  Eddie's the lead off the starter.
• 25:14
  Yeah, he's the starter. He's not the lead off.
• 25:16
  That's the battle. Did you want the record to show?
• 25:18
  Yeah, well, you're not the only one that fixed it.
• 25:20
  I found interesting the Q, if you will, to say the fix is on.
• 25:28
  Yeah, hit the first batter. Yep.
• 25:31
  OK, alright, I guess you could just tap your hat or you could
• 25:37
  give away our whole plan right away.
• 25:40
  You have one of the best pitchers in the game, as
• 25:44
  established earlier. That's the impression I get,
• 25:46
  correct. And you hit the first batter.
• 25:49
  To me, as an audience of the movie, yeah, it seems like it's
• 25:53
  a bit of a giveaway to, hey, these guys might be throwing the
• 25:56
  game. Right away, like, yeah, yeah,
• 25:58
  OK. We'll go out through this whole
• 25:59
  game because this is really a. Setting a tone, a showcase
• 26:05
  moment to establish really what I found interesting about that
• 26:08
  because I don't know enough about baseball, if that's real
• 26:11
  or not real, like or makes sense or doesn't make sense.
• 26:13
  It happens, of course, But my thing with that was I loved the
• 26:18
  drama on Lefty's face and a few of the other teammates.
• 26:22
  Over the 1st. Strike and there is this feeling
• 26:25
  of oh shit, we're getting screwed because Eddie already
• 26:28
  got his 10 grand. Do they know that?
• 26:30
  No, but but so the point is Eddie has the money, in which
• 26:33
  case he could theoretically just go, I got my money, see you
• 26:36
  later. Even Rothstein is a little like
• 26:37
  what is happening. Do they not know how to cheat
• 26:40
  properly? Like you just don't.
• 26:41
  Well, I think the rest of the movie really shows no, and
• 26:44
  that's for dramatic purposes. Certainly.
• 26:45
  I think the challenge is for someone who's watching the
• 26:49
  movie, like I said, knows that it's on.
• 26:52
  Yeah. And being someone in the stands
• 26:56
  who doesn't realize that they're throwing the game, OK, it's
• 27:01
  obvious to us. And it's going to get more
• 27:02
  obvious as we talk about this scene and later, but it made me
• 27:06
  think about a Yankees game last year maybe, or the year before
• 27:11
  where there was two or three errors by players who aren't
• 27:15
  really players that make errors. And this was a big game.
• 27:18
  Like Judge dropped the ball. Wow.
• 27:20
  Made me think for a moment, OK, but I'm like, oh, there's no
• 27:24
  way. There's no money motivation.
• 27:26
  They couldn't be, couldn't be. These guys make millions and
• 27:28
  millions of dollars. Why would you do that?
• 27:29
  Judges, as far as I know, a stand up guy.
• 27:33
  But when you're behind the curtains and you know what's
• 27:35
  going on with these players on the field, it's so in your face
• 27:40
  that it's like, oh, come on. You should have.
• 27:43
  Had that like, be better at cheating, Yeah, you know.
• 27:46
  Yeah, it's interesting to me. I thought about a lot of the
• 27:48
  sort of Monday morning quarterbacking or hockey, and
• 27:51
  there is this feeling of like, come on, why weren't you there?
• 27:54
  Come on. Yeah.
• 27:55
  And it's sort of like, you know, put yourself that you have a
• 27:58
  fraction of a second to make the decision to go left or right or
• 28:01
  yeah. And the speed and the energy and
• 28:02
  the crowd, like there's so many elements that it's easy to sit
• 28:05
  on the couch and go. Yeah, he screwed.
• 28:07
  Up. But there are a couple of things
• 28:09
  where you're like, like you're saying it's just, I know on this
• 28:12
  side of credibility or like, yeah, even with the crowd, even
• 28:15
  with all that, you still dropped it.
• 28:17
  And it depends on the sport. Yeah, some sports are probably
• 28:20
  easier to cheat than others. And I think baseball so slow.
• 28:24
  Might be. Yeah.
• 28:26
  And might be a little more susceptible.
• 28:28
  Boxing, I think, is why that was such a clear target for the
• 28:32
  gambling community. I don't really hear much about
• 28:35
  hockey. The gambling, I'm sure it's
• 28:37
  there. Football, that's a whole other
• 28:38
  world. We're not going to spend anytime
• 28:40
  on so, but for baseball, lots of opportunity, yeah.
• 28:44
  And this is what we get to see. But fortunately, we see the
• 28:47
  journalists, right? We have.
• 28:49
  We have Ring. Ring.
• 28:52
  Yeah. Played by the director.
• 28:54
  Yeah. Writer, director.
• 28:54
  John says he does a lot of movies.
• 28:56
  Yeah, he's great. He's a big script doctor, too.
• 28:59
  Writes a lot of things. And studs.
• 29:00
  Turkel, great name. They're like a Greek chorus
• 29:03
  throughout the movie too. Like they don't have any real
• 29:05
  plot function necessarily. Oh, they do.
• 29:08
  Buddy, Well, they're obviously integral to the whole thing, but
• 29:10
  I meant more in terms of they're not a part of what's happening.
• 29:14
  They're like the commentary on. What?
• 29:15
  Yeah, exactly. But they're Rosencrantz and
• 29:17
  Guildenstern, right? Hamlet is happening and that's
• 29:19
  what's going on. But there's these two guys that
• 29:21
  are on the side that live in that world and that's what
• 29:24
  these. Guys are It's like the two guys
• 29:26
  in The Muppets, the 2. Guys, exactly.
• 29:27
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, you get. It and I love his line where
• 29:31
  let's have two separate scoresheets and let's just
• 29:35
  circle players that might be suspicious.
• 29:38
  So I think fortunately for me, I'm like, OK, at least somebody
• 29:41
  here other than me gets it because we have a first play
• 29:46
  where it's made and Rooker makes this look, yeah, what are you
• 29:50
  doing? Well, we can't mess U every
• 29:52
  single play. Yeah, you have to balance it
• 29:55
  out. Wait for the 4th inning.
• 29:56
  Depression I get from that look is every play has to be messed
• 30:00
  up. And that, even for a fan, of
• 30:03
  course, is going to pick. Up going to stink pretty quick
• 30:05
  My my read on that. My take was it's because it's so
• 30:08
  early in the game and the series and everything.
• 30:11
  Is still a little. Murky.
• 30:13
  Yeah. Like that first pitch from
• 30:15
  Eddie. It's suspicious when like I
• 30:18
  thought we were in this, give me some reason to think you're on
• 30:21
  my team. But if your first play is
• 30:23
  running fast as you can, leaping and catching a ball, you have
• 30:27
  yet to prove to me that you're on my side on this right.
• 30:30
  Fuck something up in the 1st. Minute so that.
• 30:32
  I can go into the second inning feeling a little better about my
• 30:35
  life, OK? Because I'm on my neck out here,
• 30:38
  you know, like how I take it. I know.
• 30:40
  Relax, just let the game come to.
• 30:42
  You but I agree if it's like first play first moment you're
• 30:44
  like you idiot. You're like, OK dude, yeah,
• 30:46
  chill out. But honestly, that's not even
• 30:48
  the worst one, right? This is something that has stuck
• 30:50
  with me. Via is like it's a little too
• 30:53
  obvious too on the nose, but I tried to put myself in the shoes
• 30:56
  of the fan that maybe they don't really notice too much.
• 31:00
  Yeah, I think it's tough when you're dramatizing too, because
• 31:02
  everything needs to be visual. I think if you watched real time
• 31:06
  footage, it probably may not have been quite so on the nose.
• 31:09
  But for the purpose of the movie, I agree things may be a
• 31:12
  little exaggerated. And I think to your point,
• 31:14
  there's a few other ones later that you just have to wonder
• 31:17
  what the hell is going on with life, you know?
• 31:20
  However, Gene's character for. Felch, felch, felch felch.
• 31:26
  Out of just pure instinct, catches the ball.
• 31:30
  Like ego too. That I like.
• 31:32
  I don't think they necessarily realize like once you're in it,
• 31:35
  the natural instinct. Is to perform.
• 31:38
  Yep. Yeah, You're an athlete.
• 31:39
  This is your world. And you want the fans to love
• 31:41
  you. Yeah.
• 31:41
  And I don't think they consider that necessarily.
• 31:44
  No. And Lefty calls them out on it
• 31:45
  later, too, where he says no one wants to look bad.
• 31:48
  Yeah, exactly. So Eddie is going to do it all
• 31:50
  himself, and he really does. And it really makes me sad
• 31:54
  throwing just clunker after clunker after clunker and
• 31:56
  watching Eddie deal with that and wrestle with that while the
• 32:00
  crowd is booing. Like the pressure of that
• 32:03
  feeling. I wouldn't want to screw up just
• 32:05
  for that. And that's what your point half
• 32:08
  was. Well, like, I don't wanna be
• 32:09
  booed. I wanna be cheered, of course.
• 32:11
  And so I get a little embarrassed for him and luckily
• 32:14
  Kid pulls him. Guess it's not your day and the
• 32:18
  ambivalence with something like guess not and walk away without
• 32:23
  sure putting up a fight or anything.
• 32:25
  It's just, it's like, God, it's heartbreaking to me and it
• 32:27
  really makes me. Sad pitchers don't hit at all
• 32:29
  anymore. Oh really?
• 32:30
  They abolished the pitcher rule in the National League.
• 32:33
  I want to say, you know, 5-6 years ago.
• 32:35
  OK. Which I personally like.
• 32:37
  Why not? Yeah, what's the picture bring?
• 32:39
  In the ways it was weird that half the league did it and half
• 32:41
  the league. That's the weirdest part.
• 32:42
  Like when somehow is an AL rule versus NFL rule.
• 32:45
  Like, come on, come on. Now you have the new rule where
• 32:47
  Ohtani pitches and is allowed to be the DH.
• 32:51
  They made that guy Wolf anomaly. He could just do everything and
• 32:55
  allegedly like this. Maybe.
• 32:58
  We don't know. I don't know.
• 32:59
  Yeah, he seems like a nice guy. That's right.
• 33:02
  And in around rule changes. Actually, this is something that
• 33:06
  I didn't realize till last year. I was talking to a buddy at
• 33:09
  work, Dan, big baseball guy, and he said, you know, I think they
• 33:13
  changed the balls again this year for more home runs.
• 33:16
  I'm like, what do you mean? OK, I had no idea they ever did
• 33:20
  that. Really.
• 33:22
  No, I thought the ball has always been the same.
• 33:24
  I know they try to cork the bats, but that's illegal.
• 33:26
  Should do that. Maybe they've changed the weight
• 33:28
  of the bats a little bit, but I'd never thought that the ball
• 33:32
  changed. And this scene here, they're
• 33:35
  talking about dead balls, live balls.
• 33:39
  There's going to be tighter strong.
• 33:40
  I had no idea either, But I'm not a baseball guy, so it's not
• 33:42
  surprising that I wouldn't know, but I'm surprised to hear.
• 33:44
  That you had no idea and that disappoints me.
• 33:47
  That you didn't know it. Does point yourself?
• 33:49
  I'd like certain things that don't change because I'm a big
• 33:53
  stats guy. Sure.
• 33:55
  So you have a batter hitting twenty home runs next year he's
• 34:00
  hitting forty. It changes the record books.
• 34:03
  It changes the whole flow of the game.
• 34:05
  It's all home runs and strikeouts, which to me as a fan
• 34:10
  is boring. I want the double s, I want the
• 34:13
  triples. I want the catches on the
• 34:15
  warning track. I don't want these no doubt home
• 34:18
  runs. That doesn't interest me.
• 34:20
  Joe Carter, nothing better. It's beautiful around the world,
• 34:23
  but if it's happening all the time, doesn't lose some of its
• 34:27
  zest. So this scene is talking all
• 34:29
  about that when Eddie has a meeting with Ring Ring Lardner.
• 34:35
  Direction sales. Yeah.
• 34:36
  Because he wants to see if Eddie's on the level.
• 34:38
  That's it. That's the whole purpose for the
• 34:40
  moment. Yeah, this is just brilliant to
• 34:42
  me, brilliant storytelling said it's going to be hard on
• 34:44
  pitchers next year. This is it's always hard, but
• 34:46
  the implication is it's going to be easier for home runs, which
• 34:51
  is going to dynamically change the game.
• 34:52
  Hmm. He's getting ahead of the game,
• 34:54
  it seems. Yeah, he's practicing for that.
• 34:57
  That's right. And I found that part
• 34:58
  particularly fascinating because there's an element of home runs,
• 35:02
  save the game that runs to me. What little I know of baseball,
• 35:08
  that theme seems to come back over and over again, the drama
• 35:13
  of what's happening right now. But what happens in 1920 with
• 35:15
  the live ball, Babe Ruth? So you have a hero.
• 35:19
  You've just watched your heroes go down in flames.
• 35:23
  The scourge of gambling who saves the day, Home run hitter
• 35:27
  Babe Ruth. And then later you got Roger
• 35:29
  Maris and Mickey Mantle. They're chasing Babe Ruth
• 35:32
  records. Right, which I guess they can
• 35:34
  done without changing something the balls again.
• 35:37
  Totally. And then later you've got the
• 35:40
  strike, the cancelled World Series killed the Expos.
• 35:43
  Absolutely. And what happens after that?
• 35:46
  Well, we've got McGuire and Sosa and they're doing their thing.
• 35:49
  They grew up overnight. He grew up real nice.
• 35:52
  But you're caught up in it as audience.
• 35:53
  So you're like, I'm let down by my heroes.
• 35:56
  They turned down money. They can't get a deal.
• 35:59
  Yeah. So I'm out.
• 36:00
  And then wait a minute, I'm back in because the home runs after
• 36:04
  home runs. Sure is.
• 36:05
  Barry Bonds after that. Yeah.
• 36:06
  So all of these crux moments, it feels like when baseball is down
• 36:11
  and out, it's the home runs that save the game.
• 36:14
  And it feels like this is the origins of that.
• 36:16
  And again, this movie was made in 1988.
• 36:18
  That's pre all of the stuff I just talked about.
• 36:20
  But it's in there. That home run saved the game.
• 36:23
  It's interesting to me. I love the scene but having that
• 36:26
  information bothered me because I do like what I thought was
• 36:30
  pure baseball. Don't like gamblers getting
• 36:33
  involved in it, sure. I don't mind the scratch
• 36:36
  tickets, honestly even the horse racing.
• 36:38
  Maybe because I don't do it I don't really care.
• 36:41
  But because I love baseball. A movie like Moneyball where you
• 36:44
  have the romance of baseball. This taints the game and ruins.
• 36:50
  It Did Deflategate ruin football for you?
• 36:53
  You're nice guy. That's a good question.
• 36:56
  No, it didn't, because they all do it.
• 36:59
  There you go. It was a witch hunt.
• 37:01
  Yeah, The Jets. There's a crack slip that open
• 37:04
  here. Folks.
• 37:05
  The whole record book of cheating instances and The Jets
• 37:10
  cheated more, as an example. I'm not sure exactly, I'm just
• 37:12
  throwing out some names here. Bad reputation for them now.
• 37:15
  But who cheated more often? The difference is the Patriots
• 37:20
  got caught. The Patriots got caught because
• 37:22
  they're good. They're dominant.
• 37:23
  They're dominant. But other quarterbacks went on
• 37:26
  record as we just like a certain feel of the ball.
• 37:28
  Sure. Little puffy or little loser?
• 37:30
  Whatever it is, whatever you like, they had been.
• 37:32
  Doing this for decades. It's just now, oh, we got to
• 37:36
  find something on Brady. He's just too good.
• 37:39
  Oht he's been doing this. Joe Namath was doing it probably
• 37:43
  I don't know, but it's like something that's always
• 37:45
  happened. Why are we focusing on this now
• 37:47
  and isn't that big of a deal and they made it to be such a big
• 37:50
  deal when reality it wasn't that big.
• 37:53
  But I don't have the same feeling around football because
• 37:57
  there isn't that romance and I think sports betting
• 38:00
  specifically is very toxic. Oh I agree, for the game it's
• 38:03
  normalized now but it's been around for 100 years at least.
• 38:06
  Yeah, more, but but now it's now it's in your face fan duels.
• 38:10
  That's right. And I don't support.
• 38:12
  It I don't think it should. Be an advertisement.
• 38:14
  Yeah, And I understand it. I get it.
• 38:15
  When there's money involved, that's gonna happen.
• 38:17
  I agree 110%. As much as I like gambling here
• 38:20
  and there, but I like it very low level, low stakes.
• 38:22
  Exactly. You're in category one or two.
• 38:24
  Sports betting is something partly because I don't.
• 38:26
  Understand it, but also just it does.
• 38:27
  It's a scourge, right? Random chance, you pick the
• 38:30
  right card and scratch it, you win.
• 38:31
  You hit the right spin and you got something that's something
• 38:34
  different than someone is active.
• 38:36
  Like I was saying with the Gatorade, yeah, someone can
• 38:38
  actively make a choice to win or lose, and that affects some
• 38:41
  other outcome. And that as soon as you put a
• 38:42
  human in there, exactly, you run the risk.
• 38:45
  Yeah. Who's the audience?
• 38:46
  Who are who's? Involved here you are affecting
• 38:48
  millions of people out there. Just be playing your.
• 38:50
  Game to the best of your ability and sometimes you win, sometimes
• 38:53
  you lose. Exactly what you do at the craps
• 38:55
  table has. No effect on anybody but you.
• 38:58
  Ironically, actually it has an effect on.
• 39:00
  Everybody at the craps table. That's five people, but I meant.
• 39:05
  Like everyone's betting on you roll that dice, but there's no.
• 39:08
  Fan base people don't go there to cheer you on.
• 39:11
  Actually, they really OK the most crowds you'll ever.
• 39:15
  Find it at a casino, Are there? So we're not talking, you know,
• 39:20
  50,000 people in the 100, of course, in the bleachers and the
• 39:23
  people at home. So it's just too bad.
• 39:26
  It's too bad, but. Let's move on to game three.
• 39:38
  This I have problems with. OK, yeah, this might be the
• 39:41
  reason why this movie doesn't go on my shelf.
• 39:44
  Wow. OK, that.
• 39:45
  Bad. Tell me that bad?
• 39:47
  Because I think I may know what you're talking about.
• 39:49
  I'm sure you do. It's involving a running error.
• 39:52
  Oh my God. Not a fielding error, Gandalf.
• 39:55
  Hesitation to go to second base. That's a force way you have to
• 40:00
  go. Do you know what that?
• 40:01
  Is now a little bit enough about baseball?
• 40:03
  OK, yeah, it's a flyball. Different story.
• 40:06
  You gotta tag up. There you go.
• 40:08
  Pay attention, it's super obvious to the fans.
• 40:13
  I think it is even to the players on the bench.
• 40:16
  Why are you fucking? Like what?
• 40:17
  Like what do you, what are you doing?
• 40:18
  Come on. Yeah.
• 40:19
  I was pulling out my hair at that point.
• 40:21
  Very ridiculous. Yeah, I thought the same.
• 40:23
  As much as I don't like to eat shit or spell shit or whatever
• 40:26
  else like in that, I agree with you 100%.
• 40:28
  Yeah, this is the worst error, if you can call it that in the
• 40:31
  whole game. To me, it means so much more to
• 40:33
  the movie than the heckling. I can get past that.
• 40:35
  Totally this. I honestly have a hard time
• 40:38
  getting past it. Maybe I'm just putting too much
• 40:41
  emphasize, but just his look, I'm like, yeah, I think
• 40:44
  ultimately you. Are probably putting a little
• 40:46
  too much on it you're able to move on from things like I
• 40:49
  acknowledge it and immediately move on but I agree if I'm any
• 40:51
  one of those crowd if anyone on the field if anyone watching or
• 40:54
  hearing on the radio anything that would visualize what
• 40:57
  happens this game is rigged and I want my money back yeah period
• 41:01
  that's it and none of this works if they get caught correct
• 41:05
  unless everybody is just keeping it under their hood under their
• 41:09
  wrap yeah right, but fortunately.
• 41:11
  We have. Dickie Kerr, save in the day.
• 41:14
  Bush Leaguer. Hell of a game, he reminded.
• 41:17
  Me of Trey Yesavage. Tell me about him.
• 41:19
  I don't know who. You're talking.
• 41:20
  Did you not even watch the? Playoffs, playoffs.
• 41:23
  Playoffs, yeah. No, the Jays were in it.
• 41:26
  Yeah, I. Knew what was happening.
• 41:27
  I didn't. Watch any of it.
• 41:28
  Well, this is a player that started in a ball went.
• 41:32
  Up to AA, that's better, yeah. I think even you can follow.
• 41:36
  Along to AAA OK, it's three times as good as the first one
• 41:40
  towards. The end of the season got called
• 41:41
  up. And not only pitched in the
• 41:43
  World Series, but was arguably the best pitcher in the World
• 41:47
  Series from a ball to the best pitcher in World Series in the
• 41:52
  same arguably best picture. But they're certainly I would
• 41:55
  say the Jays best pitcher. Really.
• 41:57
  Yeah, he does have the advantage of batters don't know what he's
• 42:01
  going to do that has established a career worth of that helps.
• 42:04
  But he was. Throwing interesting good stuff.
• 42:06
  They could not hit his sinker. I think it was, and forgive me
• 42:10
  if that's wrong, it might have been Splitter, like he was
• 42:12
  getting strikeout after strikeout.
• 42:15
  It was awesome. And that's what I loved about
• 42:17
  baseball is to have this kid come up and man, they're just
• 42:21
  the feeling he must have had when I saw this movie because.
• 42:24
  I don't remember anything you just said.
• 42:26
  I remember what you said, but I didn't see the games.
• 42:28
  But watching this movie and feeling, and now you're saying
• 42:30
  this. What I thought about it when I
• 42:32
  saw this young kid untouched by what was going on around him.
• 42:36
  I thought of Moneyball and I thought of being romantic about
• 42:38
  baseball. I was like, this kid is so
• 42:39
  eager. Yeah, he watched kid play the
• 42:41
  game when he was young. He just loves it.
• 42:43
  He loves the game. He's just there for that.
• 42:45
  Yeah, and he's. Untarnished, there was a little
• 42:47
  bit of my romanticism of baseball, which I don't like,
• 42:50
  but I can appreciate it. I was like, yeah, there you go.
• 42:53
  And he wins. Especially after the drubbing
• 42:55
  that the last two and embarrassment I was feeling like
• 42:57
  I just I don't want to watch this, It's too bad.
• 42:59
  And chick like makes me angry that he's doing that.
• 43:02
  So to get a win is not just good drama.
• 43:05
  It happened, but it's just well laid out and at his feet.
• 43:08
  I think it's really great. I don't think it was good for
• 43:10
  Bill Burns. Though speak.
• 43:13
  Speak Krug from Star Trek 3 that bankrupted Billy Burns.
• 43:19
  Yeah, the whole gambling community got.
• 43:21
  Nailed on that because they were thinking it was going to be a
• 43:23
  clean sweep Yeah, again, I'm confused about that whole thing
• 43:26
  of who's. Betting on what?
• 43:27
  Well, everybody's betting against them for the whole.
• 43:30
  Series, I thought, but on a game.
• 43:31
  Per game basis, their game by game.
• 43:33
  They just assumed that's my. Take is that everybody had bet
• 43:36
  the Reds to win because they're going to tank, right?
• 43:38
  Their money is on. The White Sox are losing, yeah,
• 43:41
  but the whole series? Was my question can is it OK
• 43:43
  that the White Sox won a game or two?
• 43:46
  Like where's the would have been if they?
• 43:48
  Hold them. Don't bet against us on game
• 43:50
  three. That's where the point is that
• 43:51
  they bet as if they're going to lose.
• 43:54
  Yeah, so they're betting on the sweep.
• 43:56
  Well, they're betting on games. Game by game by Reds win best of
• 44:00
  nine. Like who has time for that early
• 44:02
  Nobody because they changed it actually.
• 44:04
  Speaking of pure games, but yeah, it is.
• 44:07
  I think designed to say. We're in this together, but
• 44:12
  because they haven't gotten. Any money from?
• 44:14
  The gamblers, they don't have to bring them into.
• 44:15
  We're winning this one, We're losing this one.
• 44:17
  If I were thinking, you know this new guy, we haven't talked
• 44:21
  to him, we don't know anything about him.
• 44:23
  Maybe we keep our bets this time.
• 44:24
  Maybe we just put that under the mattress for a game if the
• 44:27
  pitchers control half the game. That's right, and they've
• 44:30
  established that they need to. And you have someone who we all
• 44:33
  know. I mean, hasn't been touched,
• 44:35
  Weaver will argue. And the scene coming up that he
• 44:38
  doesn't know who's cheating and who isn't.
• 44:40
  But we know Dickie Kerr isn't, and we know Schlack or Shock,
• 44:44
  shock Gordon Clapp. We know he's on the level, yes.
• 44:49
  Is that very much on the level? Yeah.
• 44:50
  You want to be on the level, right?
• 44:51
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're not on the level.
• 44:53
  There's a whole wagon thing. That they could win.
• 44:56
  So yeah, you're right. That's on them.
• 44:58
  That's it a little. Bit but they call it out, right?
• 45:00
  It makes that joke, you know? Can you spot me the train fare
• 45:02
  back to Philly? I busted good for them.
• 45:06
  Good for them. But that win?
• 45:09
  That victory doesn't last very long.
• 45:12
  It really doesn't. And he's back for Game 4.
• 45:16
  Yeah, normally, Phillip, it's a five man rotation.
• 45:19
  Oht. No, 1919, maybe not.
• 45:21
  That's why it's so easily acceptable.
• 45:23
  But even in the playoffs now, you'll cut that rotation down to
• 45:27
  get your guys in. Yeah.
• 45:29
  Good ones. Yeah, for sure.
• 45:30
  Yeah. Yeah, you're just gave it.
• 45:31
  Yeah, So I bought into that. He's already playing again.
• 45:34
  I think the world. I think it's a different game,
• 45:36
  period. Their gloves just look like
• 45:37
  giant hands. They really do.
• 45:39
  And they just left them out there most of the time.
• 45:40
  But you're right, Eddie. Shits the bed right away on
• 45:44
  another one just yeah, just tanks it.
• 45:47
  And at this point, kid knows I love.
• 45:50
  His approach to it, where he's not completely direct, but he
• 45:54
  says not on today. Yeah, Yeah.
• 45:56
  With the tone of like, I know you're cheating.
• 45:57
  Guess not your day, Yeah? Same thing as earlier, right?
• 46:00
  Guess not. It's all.
• 46:01
  It's really shitty. But we get a particularly
• 46:04
  poignant moment from a side character we talked about
• 46:08
  earlier when Ring says you lied to me, Eddie.
• 46:13
  Yeah. I'm shocked at how poignant I
• 46:16
  thought that little line by that performer.
• 46:19
  It's just, it really did it for me.
• 46:21
  I was going to say poignant. You've overstated I.
• 46:24
  Have but I wasn't sure if it was because.
• 46:26
  I still don't know exactly what it means.
• 46:28
  It means it affected you emotionally.
• 46:30
  Well, that it did, yeah. On what?
• 46:32
  Level, I don't know, but it was a great line delivered by a
• 46:35
  great actor, yeah. He's really into this role.
• 46:39
  The dude is singing. Just singing a song right there
• 46:41
  in the middle of the movie. Did he just come up with that?
• 46:43
  Is that a written song? Have you heard it before?
• 46:45
  Did he change the lyrics to a different song?
• 46:47
  He did do that, yeah. OK, so it's a known song.
• 46:49
  I'm forever blowing bubbles, was the song.
• 46:51
  OK, but he rewrote it. It's not on my Spotify but Oh no
• 46:55
  not. Yet he's got a great.
• 46:56
  Singing voice too. The guy can do anything.
• 46:58
  Apparently. It's really good.
• 47:00
  What I like about that too is he's calling them all out on it
• 47:02
  on the train. And right after that sweet just
• 47:06
  looks up at him and says, you know, crack pot.
• 47:08
  And it's once again, those three have no moral qualms whatsoever.
• 47:14
  They're told to their face, I know that you're throwing this
• 47:17
  whole thing and they just have no hesitation.
• 47:20
  They're still like what is idiot speed would fit in so well
• 47:24
  today. Yeah, you know what I mean?
• 47:25
  It's his world. We're just living his world.
• 47:28
  We haven't talked a lot about Gleason kid No John Mahone, no,
• 47:33
  you're you're aching for the things I don't like in this
• 47:36
  movie. I really like him.
• 47:38
  Of course. I like how he discovers that
• 47:40
  they're cheating. I love his approach to it and I
• 47:44
  love that he has gone to Comiskey at this point.
• 47:48
  So he has done what he can do. And one line that was said
• 47:52
  earlier that I loved to kid was Eddie when he says we don't have
• 47:57
  a beef with you, that's right. Got no beef with you.
• 48:00
  The. Way he delivered that mine, I
• 48:01
  loved it. And what's happened since then
• 48:04
  with kids character, like, that line makes complete sense.
• 48:07
  Yeah. It also makes it kind of sad.
• 48:08
  Yet that too, right? Like, I think to some extent,
• 48:11
  because this guy lives in East Breeds baseball, too.
• 48:14
  Where am I working next year? Do I get fired because we lose
• 48:17
  the World Series? Not my fault.
• 48:19
  My stuff that I love about him in this movie is predominantly
• 48:24
  his excitement when they're hitting.
• 48:27
  He's in the dugout and he just like, leans into camera, like
• 48:30
  big clap, big smiles, big excitement.
• 48:32
  And that's my favorite Mahoney stuff in this.
• 48:34
  He's great. Yeah.
• 48:35
  He does have my least favorite line in the movie, though.
• 48:37
  Ohhh you'll play. OHP, that was bad.
• 48:40
  You'll play. I purposely left that out.
• 48:42
  It's bad, yeah, but everything else this guy does, including
• 48:45
  what? Happens later in the courtroom.
• 48:46
  I just think, yeah, you're a great actor.
• 48:48
  He was great in striking. Distance if you were calling OK.
• 48:54
  For that right? Out of my mind, I'm pretty sure
• 48:56
  it's. Kids excitement about the great
• 48:58
  plays. And everything that has them
• 49:00
  decide to play for real now. I think it's the money or might.
• 49:05
  Be because they didn't get the. Money.
• 49:06
  It's the money, yes, They didn't get paid.
• 49:08
  Yeah. And idiots.
• 49:10
  Well, they've. All had on bets and then they
• 49:12
  all lost after three. So yeah, something about not
• 49:14
  giving it to him. They don't have it anymore.
• 49:16
  Right. They just kind of overplayed
• 49:17
  their hand, and we know. Lefty is going to do what?
• 49:19
  Eddie does, yes, and we know. That Eddie has a clock.
• 49:25
  I don't know why he has that clock alarm clock.
• 49:28
  Is it because he's supposed to have the money by that time and
• 49:30
  it hasn't shown up? I think he was just setting an
• 49:33
  alarm for the. Next morning, OK, I don't think
• 49:35
  it's the money alarm. I don't know, because it went
• 49:37
  off, you know, he's fudging with it, OK.
• 49:40
  It's a metaphor, I think it. Is right that there.
• 49:42
  Is sort of like times up on this.
• 49:44
  OK, there you go. Yes, you caught the metaphor,
• 49:46
  just the misplaced it. So it is definitely the money,
• 49:49
  but it offers us the opportunity for Eddie's redemption.
• 49:55
  Yeah, he's our kind of lead character.
• 49:57
  He's got an arc, yeah. We see him wrestle with
• 50:00
  decisions. He has the audience's attention
• 50:02
  and so watching him pitch himself, if you will, kids
• 50:06
  giving up on him, this is a great scene.
• 50:08
  Absolutely. So he's.
• 50:09
  Warming up and kids is like. You're done.
• 50:11
  He says he's gonna go with Dickie.
• 50:12
  Yeah. That's all I want to say.
• 50:15
  And Eddie just keeps pushing back.
• 50:17
  I can't. Miss like this is the one and
• 50:19
  the way he says it because there's this undercurrent of kid
• 50:23
  knows, or at least we think he might know he knows.
• 50:26
  So like there's this undercurrent between the two in
• 50:29
  this moment. I just think it's beautiful and
• 50:31
  really well played by both those actors and even having Mahoney
• 50:35
  say to. Clap.
• 50:36
  Keep an eye on him. Yeah, I still don't trust you.
• 50:38
  Exactly. Which is?
• 50:40
  I get what you're saying. You've swung sides, but I gotta
• 50:43
  be careful. Totally rightfully.
• 50:45
  So. And that's what I love about
• 50:46
  showing. That kid hasn't been that naive
• 50:49
  guy. I don't know what's going on.
• 50:51
  I didn't know they were cheating without coming out and saying
• 50:54
  you. Guys are cheating exactly right.
• 50:56
  Even at the beginning of the games, the movies, like the only
• 50:58
  one that could beat us is yourselves.
• 51:00
  And we know what that means. And this is where it culminates
• 51:02
  between the two. It's a beautiful scene.
• 51:04
  It's so tight, but it tells you so much and it gives Eddie, like
• 51:07
  I said, just that redemption bit where he proves he still has it.
• 51:11
  And even the journalists, right, they're just like, oh, wow,
• 51:14
  where did that come from? So they were surprised.
• 51:16
  Yeah, gets to have a little. Bit of shine here.
• 51:18
  Did you like claps? Remarked to the batter.
• 51:21
  Yeah, you're done. You're done after the first
• 51:22
  pitch, Yeah. He's playing today.
• 51:24
  Yeah. And I love how specific it is to
• 51:26
  say and how accurate it was to say.
• 51:29
  You need Eddie and he is the glue of the whole thing.
• 51:32
  He said. Kevin Gossman.
• 51:34
  I was going to say that exact same thing.
• 51:36
  He took the words out of my mouth, Right.
• 51:39
  But unfortunately. Phillip When there's a lot of
• 51:41
  money involved and people aren't, what's the word, honest?
• 51:46
  No. Well.
• 51:47
  Yes. But they're not willing to lay
• 51:50
  down. Ohhh sure.
• 51:51
  Yeah. Which had me.
• 51:53
  Thinking about earlier. When I said Aaron Judge, this
• 51:55
  guy wouldn't cheat because he needs the money or wants the
• 51:59
  money, but what if, hear me out here, someone is threatening him
• 52:03
  or his family? There you go.
• 52:04
  We would never know, of course. Not I think that's.
• 52:07
  What Part of the problems these people face, people in the
• 52:09
  spotlight is you're a target. And here we have everybody on
• 52:14
  board more or less as a first suite and rocker there.
• 52:18
  Yeah, but Lefty is going to play in the next game, unfortunately.
• 52:23
  Someone. Pays him a visit.
• 52:26
  Just comes out and. Says I'm.
• 52:28
  Going to kill your wife, played by the lovely Nancy Travis?
• 52:31
  Absolutely. And this is serious.
• 52:33
  Yeah. And I don't know if that's
• 52:35
  changed over the years, but back then they would inflict
• 52:40
  violence. If you didn't, you're in the
• 52:41
  middle of the grit of the. World with the gamblers and
• 52:45
  gangsters and he's set to start the.
• 52:47
  Next game, which I have to put into question.
• 52:50
  OK, from a managerial position, that's your sweet spot.
• 52:54
  I've supported Kid Gleason the whole time.
• 52:57
  True on everything, but here I have a problem because he had a
• 53:01
  conversation with Eddie. Can't miss.
• 53:04
  He doesn't. Know that lefties back on.
• 53:06
  Board, he's tanked worse than any of them.
• 53:08
  Yeah, we did establish earlier that where Eddie.
• 53:10
  Goes lefty. Goes.
• 53:11
  But I don't know that kid knows. That kid knows Dickie.
• 53:16
  Is rested and played one hell of a game.
• 53:20
  Who do you go with Phil the hot hand or the guy that is clearly
• 53:24
  thrown at least one game? I think they made a tactical
• 53:27
  error. This is on kid, Yeah.
• 53:30
  There it is, yeah. Could have gone a different way,
• 53:33
  Absolutely. You know who wishes it when a
• 53:35
  different way was Nancy? I don't like awkward,
• 53:39
  uncomfortable, embarrassing moments.
• 53:42
  Who does? Not for me, it's like third
• 53:45
  party. Third party.
• 53:45
  Yeah, I. Don't like it for me, certainly,
• 53:47
  yeah, but I. Get just as anxious and me too
• 53:51
  or someone else is making a fool themselves.
• 53:52
  Even in a. Movie that is scripted.
• 53:54
  You feel it watching this and Nancy Travis.
• 53:57
  Supporting her husband. Put $5 on my husband tonight.
• 54:01
  That's why you don't gamble. That in and of itself is awkward
• 54:05
  because we know what's going to happen and wrong and wrong.
• 54:08
  I guess I don't mind, but watching her and watching what
• 54:12
  Lefty does after that is genuinely heartbreaking to me.
• 54:17
  And it calls into questions things like Eddie's family in
• 54:20
  those first games where they're the mom, the kids are ducking
• 54:24
  her head in the thing. You know, like all the hope and
• 54:27
  support and love that your family gives you and then you
• 54:32
  shit the bed so egregiously. Got it.
• 54:35
  It makes me skin crawl. I could.
• 54:37
  Sense and see her sadness it's so sad that's how good Nancy
• 54:43
  Travis is good she's wasted in a very small part but she.
• 54:47
  Delivers when she's in there. Great in sitcoms.
• 54:49
  No, I'm sure that's your sweet spot.
• 54:51
  Nancy. Nancy Travis.
• 54:54
  Yeah, cause Cusack has a moment with his wife which is
• 54:57
  completely different because he's on the other side of things
• 55:00
  yes you know I go on the field I don't know who's cheating, who
• 55:04
  isn't yeah he does. I think it's pretty clear.
• 55:07
  I think he should but watch game three and chick there exactly
• 55:11
  there's no emotionality to her character really at all, but
• 55:13
  it's just a completely different dynamic from the wives
• 55:16
  perspective. We've talked about how it.
• 55:19
  Affects the team and affects the audience and it affects the
• 55:21
  crowd and the gamblers. Like, all these decisions that
• 55:24
  are made and also the family, the kids, the kids are gonna
• 55:27
  grow up with the dad that is in the books.
• 55:30
  Yeah. And that's the right.
• 55:31
  Way and on the right. Way you don't think about that
• 55:33
  in the moment I'm sure but hindsight and history has proven
• 55:38
  that's sad to me that their dad is crooked and that's yeah
• 55:41
  anyway asterisk that's. Right.
• 55:43
  Yep. Little Jimmy McGuire, little
• 55:46
  Bobby Sosa and ultimately they lose.
• 55:50
  That's the end of the game, end of the road, end of the.
• 55:52
  Series lefty got pulled pretty quick but.
• 55:55
  Damage was done. That's it, he says.
• 55:56
  Even like. Didn't take you long.
• 55:58
  Ohhhhh my God I love that line and heartbreak.
• 56:00
  That, again, kid, is just. I know.
• 56:02
  Yeah, but I'm not going to be direct because that's just not
• 56:05
  what you do. He's not a rat or a
• 56:07
  whistleblower. No.
• 56:09
  Not enough people were, no. And I want to pose this question
• 56:12
  to you. It's always bothered me in
• 56:13
  sports, in the police force. We talked about it an episode a
• 56:17
  while ago, the difference between a rat in a whistleblower
• 56:21
  because when you have guy like Swede and Gandel making these
• 56:25
  decisions that you're forced to go by because you're on the same
• 56:29
  team. Why do I have to do that?
• 56:31
  You're hurting me, your hurting my values.
• 56:34
  Lefties wife has been threatened.
• 56:36
  So we need people like Gordon Clapp, college boy to be honest
• 56:43
  and say this is going on. But sometimes when that does.
• 56:48
  Happen. It's OK, and they're called
• 56:50
  whistleblowers. What's the difference between
• 56:52
  being a rat, especially in the police world?
• 56:55
  You don't rat on your partner. Sure, and I'm not saying you do.
• 56:58
  But if they put you in a position that compromises you, I
• 57:02
  think it's a corporate thing. I mean, I think about The Usual
• 57:05
  Suspects where they talk about how Kaiser Soze was a spook
• 57:07
  story rat on your pop and Kaiser Soze is gonna come for you,
• 57:11
  right? So it's like that is the
• 57:13
  criminal element. You're a rat, you're this.
• 57:15
  But if we talk about The Insider, a movie that we did,
• 57:18
  and yeah, that's a whistleblower.
• 57:20
  Whistleblower Corporate. Corporate thing, I think more
• 57:22
  than the other, OK. So don't rat on your.
• 57:25
  Friends if you're. Gordon Club because like your
• 57:27
  team, right? OK, so he's a rat.
• 57:29
  I believe he would be. In the rat that term has
• 57:32
  negative connotations to it. I don't.
• 57:34
  And I don't think Klopp is a bad character.
• 57:36
  I don't think he's a bad person. He played his heart out.
• 57:39
  No, he loves the game of baseball.
• 57:40
  He wasn't involved. Sure.
• 57:42
  I think he that is perfectly fine then.
• 57:44
  I agree, good if comiskey as he does later.
• 57:48
  Says there's something rotten in baseball.
• 57:50
  Probably whistleblower, probably, you know, corporate.
• 57:53
  It's right. Get that, corporate.
• 57:54
  Label. Yep, sounds a lot better.
• 57:56
  A lot better deal. Well, whether it's a rat or a
• 58:08
  whistleblower. You need someone to rein it in.
• 58:11
  There's no secret. As you said, everybody knows the
• 58:13
  world's worst secret here. The thing was tanked.
• 58:16
  So Kaminsky goes and gathers some other owners and says we
• 58:19
  need a new commissioner now, the old Commission.
• 58:21
  This is not Michael Chiklis. I want to be clear.
• 58:23
  It certainly is. That one's just for you, Dave.
• 58:29
  Appreciate it. I never.
• 58:30
  Knew. Who this person was obviously
• 58:32
  and I never heard of a lifetime, although it feels like Gary
• 58:36
  Bettman maybe in a lifetime. Oh my God, but.
• 58:39
  I've never heard of a. Lifetime appointment.
• 58:41
  I don't know anything about baseball, sort of that side of
• 58:43
  it. Are you familiar with this guy
• 58:45
  and who he is? All I know I did a little
• 58:47
  research on him. Later, he is the one that's
• 58:50
  responsible for not allowing black baseball players ever.
• 58:54
  OK Fortunately, he died. He died.
• 58:57
  The lifetime did end. 1944 I. Believe.
• 59:01
  Alright, is that when that happened and when I read that I
• 59:05
  was disheartened of course. Because it's racist, yes, but
• 59:08
  also came from Macgyver's dad. Ohhhhh no, John.
• 59:13
  Anderson, you're really in a pickle here.
• 59:16
  You've given me that gifts before.
• 59:18
  But in the same movie, Frasier's dad and Macgyver's dad got it.
• 59:23
  He was busy in 88. Yeah, if this would have been
• 59:25
  season, I think 3 of MacGyver. So he was in a couple really
• 59:28
  good episodes. Good to know Harry was his name.
• 59:31
  OK. But yeah, just a little history
• 59:33
  on him. But he does have a valid point.
• 59:34
  I don't have to worry about my job.
• 59:36
  Yep, I get that. But it's also giving himself, of
• 59:40
  course, obviously a ton of he's advocating for himself, which is
• 59:42
  what you should be doing. Anytime soon of a job interview.
• 59:44
  I thought it was rather interesting that he was able to
• 59:46
  wield such power like how vulnerable they all felt in the
• 59:51
  league that yeah, sure you know and it absolute power.
• 59:54
  OK this time position OK right. With a little push back, but not
• 1:00:00
  much. So I like that they established
• 1:00:02
  the imprint this guy seems to have.
• 1:00:04
  He's a cool cat. Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  And then. Concurrently to getting the new.
• 1:00:08
  Commissioner, we've got the lawyers getting involved, the
• 1:00:10
  journalists have taken on the mantle to sort of sort out what
• 1:00:14
  happened. And from there we got a grand
• 1:00:16
  jury. But who is devastated about this
• 1:00:18
  news? And we've seen them throughout
• 1:00:20
  the whole movie. I thought that a really good job
• 1:00:23
  of showing the innocence the baseball fandom.
• 1:00:27
  We've talked to audience, we've talked about family, we've
• 1:00:29
  talked about owners and the players on the field.
• 1:00:31
  But this movie does a pretty good job of establishing the
• 1:00:36
  hero worship that happens in the neighborhoods with these kids.
• 1:00:41
  And the access, Yeah, the proximity they have right now,
• 1:00:44
  you get close to judge. Yeah, you mentioned, Oh my God,
• 1:00:47
  the accessibility in this. I felt like this doesn't happen.
• 1:00:51
  I'm thinking, you know, in 1919. Yeah, of course, on that scale,
• 1:00:55
  probably it puts things in perspective.
• 1:00:56
  This is no longer just the career.
• 1:00:58
  Thing, yeah, this is the job and exactly walking to your ball
• 1:01:01
  stadium from your apartment to play a game and you go back.
• 1:01:05
  And that is new thing for me, certainly, but it helps them
• 1:01:09
  establish relationship with Bucky.
• 1:01:10
  The two kids at the beginning, then jockeying for position, you
• 1:01:13
  know, oh, these are the best seats in the house.
• 1:01:15
  They can't even see. Anyone stands up over them,
• 1:01:17
  That's what's so funny about. That it's a great moment, kids
• 1:01:19
  from that era though, so. Annoying like this.
• 1:01:22
  Like they're squealing and they're high pitched voices.
• 1:01:24
  All kids dude. I guess I don't know, but it is
• 1:01:28
  it is a lot. I think it's important to have
• 1:01:30
  that. Through line, though, yeah, it's
• 1:01:31
  kind of irritating and annoying, but I understand why it's there.
• 1:01:34
  And the corrupted, They're the. They're the.
• 1:01:36
  Innocence of the game. They're tarnished.
• 1:01:38
  Right, these are their heroes. And he sums it up with saying
• 1:01:41
  like, so Joe, it's a line transcends Marie Head wrote a
• 1:01:43
  song called saying so Joe. And it's, I think it's Weezer
• 1:01:46
  actually, that's. Also and it's.
• 1:01:49
  Summarizes the disheartened, broken promise of baseball, of
• 1:01:55
  sports. It's a small moment that runs
• 1:01:57
  throughout the movie and I thought poignant again.
• 1:02:00
  It is. It delivers on what it's
• 1:02:02
  supposed to do and calls into question.
• 1:02:05
  It's not just a game man. Powerful stuff.
• 1:02:08
  And Joe doesn't have any real clue.
• 1:02:10
  No, he really doesn't. But Bucky?
• 1:02:11
  Bucky gets it, yeah. He gets stick up for your
• 1:02:13
  friends, he says earlier, right? Yeah.
• 1:02:15
  I didn't love his dialogue around the kids.
• 1:02:17
  I thought there's better things to say.
• 1:02:19
  He talked about his love of baseball.
• 1:02:20
  He talks about how he. Just loves the feeling of being
• 1:02:22
  that part I liked. OK, That's the two
• 1:02:24
  conversations. You like that one?
• 1:02:26
  Yeah, I like that one. Yeah.
• 1:02:28
  We appreciate that. That's the baseball I love.
• 1:02:30
  Yeah, the feeling of the ball and the bat when you hit it in.
• 1:02:33
  The the ball in the glove, like the turf underneath your feet
• 1:02:37
  and like the whole thing that he romanticizes baseball in that
• 1:02:39
  moment and the kids are eating it up.
• 1:02:41
  I just don't think he did it as well as he could have.
• 1:02:43
  You have issues with John Cusack's performance?
• 1:02:45
  I do. Actually, I didn't love.
• 1:02:47
  It I'll say it right now, however, I did appreciate his
• 1:02:50
  plea to have his own trial and I think there's validity there.
• 1:02:54
  This guy was just in the same room.
• 1:02:56
  That's it. Come on here.
• 1:02:57
  It's like George Aaron Glengarry.
• 1:02:59
  Glen Ross, my man, is in trouble because he listened.
• 1:03:01
  Oht. That's right.
• 1:03:03
  Yeah, that's it. That's right.
• 1:03:05
  Seriously, he didn't take any money yet he says he batted
• 1:03:08
  what, 3320? 7 Phillips 327.
• 1:03:11
  Not one air that's pretty good for 1/3 baseman, sure.
• 1:03:14
  So how do you hold him accountable?
• 1:03:16
  And it's like. Well, because somebody said Buck
• 1:03:18
  Weaver is involved, I think the issue really was that he didn't.
• 1:03:21
  Say anything, I guess he tried to with kid in that one scene at
• 1:03:25
  home plate, but that comes back to not wanting to be not
• 1:03:28
  corporate the rat. Yeah, I'm not going to do it,
• 1:03:31
  but you do what you're going to do.
• 1:03:32
  Yeah, they all basically said. Even throughout the movie and on
• 1:03:36
  trial, on the stand, I thought they would get their act
• 1:03:38
  together. College boy says it, a kid says
• 1:03:41
  he did. Yeah, that's exactly what Kusek
• 1:03:43
  says with. His wife on that porch, right
• 1:03:45
  exactly. I just, I'm going to play my
• 1:03:47
  game like, he says, even to. Chick later or to sweet.
• 1:03:50
  I want to play my game. You play yours.
• 1:03:52
  Yeah. So everybody feels like it's not
• 1:03:55
  even a rat situation. Almost like they'll come around.
• 1:03:59
  It's like a game of chicken. Most when Eddie wins that game
• 1:04:01
  456, whatever it was. OK, we're back in business,
• 1:04:05
  folks. Yeah, I think there's some
• 1:04:06
  elements of that in there. But yeah, it's no excuse.
• 1:04:09
  No, I mean you have the whole legality of every.
• 1:04:12
  Exactly right. You could have done more and
• 1:04:13
  should. Have done more and the impact to
• 1:04:15
  the game and the fans and. The kids, the kids, but the kids
• 1:04:19
  and. The kids and kids.
• 1:04:21
  Kids. That's right.
• 1:04:22
  But kid. Gets the line of the.
• 1:04:23
  Trial, as it were, where he's pressed at argue that, but go
• 1:04:26
  on, What do you say about these guys now, these players?
• 1:04:29
  And he takes a moment is really good in these scenes.
• 1:04:31
  John, Honey is good in everything, but it's true but.
• 1:04:33
  In particular, I thought he was really.
• 1:04:35
  Delivering, You could really feel the pain in the ass for
• 1:04:37
  sure. But he says the best ball club
• 1:04:39
  I've ever seen. He's not lying.
• 1:04:41
  No perjury there. That's how he feels.
• 1:04:43
  I believe it. It goes back to what Bucky said
• 1:04:45
  earlier too you. Stand up for friends, even when
• 1:04:47
  they're down, especially when they're down.
• 1:04:48
  I felt this was Collins's one. Time to shine.
• 1:04:51
  Oh yeah, it's true. Good call, you're all.
• 1:04:53
  Remarkable person, your words. Not mine.
• 1:04:55
  He's smart, but in the end they're acquitted.
• 1:04:57
  By the law of the land, they're feeling good about life.
• 1:05:00
  Celebrate. This is really good, the
• 1:05:02
  pressures. Gone.
• 1:05:03
  Yeah, the coast is. Clear my man.
• 1:05:05
  And it's really amplified on Rooker.
• 1:05:07
  OHS, which I think is perfect, have a tie of his life.
• 1:05:10
  He's got food all over him, he's got a baseball with a baguette
• 1:05:13
  and I think that's the right. Person.
• 1:05:15
  To pick for this moment, to really illustrate the contrast
• 1:05:20
  of what's happening here and what's happening with Macgyver's
• 1:05:23
  dad, it's brilliant to me and it reminds me of.
• 1:05:26
  Quiz show. We haven't talked a lot about
• 1:05:27
  it, but this movie in a little bit here reminds me of the
• 1:05:30
  ending of Quiz and the idea that something is 1 but also lost at
• 1:05:36
  the exact same time. That's right.
• 1:05:38
  And the choice this. Movie makes to.
• 1:05:40
  Intercut everybody at the table celebrating in their tuxes, not
• 1:05:45
  for their champagne, having a great.
• 1:05:46
  Time. Laughs and relief intercut with
• 1:05:49
  Mountain. You can call them, well, better.
• 1:05:52
  Than Macgyver's. Dad, I think at least his
• 1:05:54
  characters name is there goes yeah, he.
• 1:05:57
  Lays down the. Edict that no ballplayer that's
• 1:06:00
  ever gonna bet and be bet on and bet with and consort with
• 1:06:03
  gamblers will have room will ever play baseball.
• 1:06:06
  Again, yeah, and that's where it's.
• 1:06:08
  Clarified for Cusack. Anyone who is in the same room.
• 1:06:11
  Yeah, but didn't say anything. I'm like, ohhhhh, yeah, that's
• 1:06:15
  the problem right there. Yeah.
• 1:06:17
  He's hardcore by association, and he just lays it flat as
• 1:06:21
  we're intercutting. It's just magical to me.
• 1:06:23
  It's such a gut punch, the fact that they don't know what's
• 1:06:26
  happening. Like they know, obviously
• 1:06:28
  eventually, but in that moment, the choice to show them at their
• 1:06:31
  peak. Oh yeah, while they're done,
• 1:06:33
  that's good. It's really good film.
• 1:06:34
  That's good filmmaking. Yeah, I get that me.
• 1:06:39
  But it really sucks for Weaver. Yeah, like just that sucks.
• 1:06:42
  He fought. He fought the whole time till he
• 1:06:44
  died. Title credit says he fought
• 1:06:46
  every year to get his name cleared.
• 1:06:49
  I fell for him. Yeah, yeah, it's.
• 1:06:51
  Great performance, great performance.
• 1:06:53
  At that moment. Yeah, I don't really love the
• 1:06:56
  choice to end the. Movie in 1925.
• 1:06:58
  Six years later and random Joe Jackson is playing some ball
• 1:07:03
  game. Bush league, Bush league thing,
• 1:07:05
  AAA double. Bucky's watching him and the
• 1:07:07
  crowd is talking. That can't be him.
• 1:07:09
  I just thought that was a little contrived.
• 1:07:11
  You know? That wouldn't happen today.
• 1:07:13
  You wouldn't be able to get. Away with that.
• 1:07:14
  No, everyone would know that's yours.
• 1:07:16
  I think more of the issue I have is with the.
• 1:07:18
  Choice to end the movie like that not that it could or
• 1:07:20
  couldn't happen I didn't bother me again.
• 1:07:23
  I accepted the movie. Show me.
• 1:07:24
  Is it because the movie is just you're done.
• 1:07:26
  It feels like I'm. Done at that.
• 1:07:27
  Point and I didn't need to know that Shoeless Joe went on.
• 1:07:29
  Now this is pre Field of Dreams. Now, the book had been written,
• 1:07:32
  so the Shoeless Joe thing that comes into play in Field of
• 1:07:36
  Dreams isn't really the thing yet, so I didn't really feel
• 1:07:40
  like it needed that button on this movie.
• 1:07:43
  It just felt like it's a natural way to end whereas the other one
• 1:07:47
  felt ended with the hard cut of like these guys are banned
• 1:07:51
  period move on. I like it other than Bucky being
• 1:07:54
  there. OK.
• 1:07:54
  Leave him to fill it in. Sure.
• 1:07:55
  Why is he there watching? Yeah, Joe's doing his thing.
• 1:07:58
  He really loves the game he's playing.
• 1:07:59
  And like, oh, is it? Is the audience?
• 1:08:01
  Could be. Yeah, it'd be like a Nolan.
• 1:08:03
  Moment. Sure.
• 1:08:04
  We don't really know if it's him or not.
• 1:08:06
  That's right. I mean, we know JB Sweeney or DB
• 1:08:10
  Sweeney. So we know we're Speaking of him
• 1:08:13
  an Inception, the immigration officer that was in Inception, I
• 1:08:18
  believe, killed him in Jericho. I think that was the mayor,
• 1:08:22
  Yeah, in Inception. And Sweeney played the bad guy.
• 1:08:25
  Season 2, Fantastic, by the way, performance in that.
• 1:08:28
  Like I say, Morales and from La Bamba, right?
• 1:08:31
  Yeah, Great cast of Jericho Season 2, man was very good.
• 1:08:34
  Peak. Yeah.
• 1:08:34
  Great stuff I did. Because it got cancelled.
• 1:08:36
  Yeah, that was the end of it. Well, speaking at the end, this
• 1:08:39
  is the end of the podcast. David Phillip.
• 1:08:43
  What? Are your final thoughts.
• 1:08:44
  You. Alluded to earlier that it might
• 1:08:45
  not end up on your shelf. What's your final verdict on
• 1:08:48
  that? No, I don't think so.
• 1:08:49
  Oh, listen, I. Love baseball and I like stories
• 1:08:54
  like this, but that running error by Gandel keeps this off
• 1:08:59
  the shelf. Wow, well reasoned.
• 1:09:02
  All jokes aside though, but what?
• 1:09:04
  I like about Baseball is what you see in Moneyball's Field of
• 1:09:08
  Dreams. I would say Trouble with the
• 1:09:10
  Curve. Not a great movie, but the goal
• 1:09:12
  of that movie is what I'm looking for.
• 1:09:14
  However, it did make me interested to learn more about
• 1:09:18
  the scandal that maybe wasn't shown in the film like Everest
• 1:09:22
  did for you. It's like I'm curious to know
• 1:09:24
  more about the story now. That was enough for you to put
• 1:09:26
  the actual movie on the shelf? Not the case in this instance
• 1:09:30
  because of the air. When it comes down to it, that
• 1:09:33
  play. Wow. 8 seconds of a 2 hour
• 1:09:36
  movie. That's the difference maker. 8
• 1:09:38
  seconds out buddy. That's.
• 1:09:39
  It it certainly. Wasn't a waste of time watching
• 1:09:42
  it. Wow, high praise.
• 1:09:43
  It's just. There's.
• 1:09:45
  Two things that I don't need together gambling, the 1920s.
• 1:09:50
  I I love and I love baseball, but the marriage of all three or
• 1:09:54
  two then. Yeah, and a few things I just
• 1:09:57
  didn't like. Stood out for me a joke about
• 1:09:58
  the air, but there's a few other things that I'm like, yeah, it's
• 1:10:02
  OK, but I don't think it warrants a spot on the shelf,
• 1:10:06
  unfortunately, Phil. Well.
• 1:10:07
  That is disheartening. Especially considering I still
• 1:10:10
  have trouble with the curve on my.
• 1:10:11
  Show exactly if you look at the history of your.
• 1:10:13
  Shelf. I think it's really a question
• 1:10:15
  why this one wouldn't make it on for. 8 seconds.
• 1:10:18
  Yeah. However, I can't argue.
• 1:10:20
  It's your prerogative, but I had the same experience as you in
• 1:10:24
  terms of curiosity, and I don't do this often, as you know, when
• 1:10:27
  we do based on a true story you've mentioned before, your
• 1:10:30
  wife eats it up. Oh yeah, just Yum.
• 1:10:32
  Yum Yum. Yeah, doesn't matter what it is,
• 1:10:34
  just if. It's true.
• 1:10:35
  I'll watch it. So I thought it'd be fun to look
• 1:10:38
  at a couple of things that this movie, let's say, resented one
• 1:10:42
  way and the reality went a different way and wondered how
• 1:10:45
  it may affect your appreciation or understanding of the movie
• 1:10:48
  and if it changes your perspective on it at the end.
• 1:10:51
  OK, I'm surprised. We don't normally do a Fact
• 1:10:54
  Check in the middle of it. I understand.
• 1:10:56
  I understand when we watched Everest I just found that stuff
• 1:10:59
  and it. Changed.
• 1:11:00
  How I thought about the movie, because I mentioned I thought
• 1:11:02
  that's a movie moment, and you realize it's not a movie moment.
• 1:11:05
  It's right. And it can.
• 1:11:07
  Work the other way as well. Yeah, like you watch it
• 1:11:09
  regardless you movie. This movie, it doesn't even
• 1:11:12
  bother me, as we've established, but I think.
• 1:11:14
  It's interesting to consider. So here are a couple of things
• 1:11:16
  that this movie presents as fact.
• 1:11:19
  OK, that has in the 100 plus years since being debunked,
• 1:11:23
  let's say. OK, so Comiskey.
• 1:11:26
  Yeah. Not cheap by all accounts.
• 1:11:29
  Really. Highest paid team in the league.
• 1:11:31
  Oh, my God. He was fairly generous.
• 1:11:34
  See that I take exception to you talked about the cheapness.
• 1:11:38
  I didn't like being. Yeah, that irritated me.
• 1:11:41
  Part of the reason I stayed off the shelf, to be honest with
• 1:11:43
  you. But that's a big game changer in
• 1:11:45
  the movie. That's the motivation of Eddie
• 1:11:49
  because he only won 29 games. Didn't happen.
• 1:11:53
  I was cheering for. The players at that.
• 1:11:54
  Point. I'm like, yeah, screw Comiskey.
• 1:11:57
  Sure, this is a job that you're underpaid.
• 1:11:59
  Apparently the players approach. The gamblers.
• 1:12:03
  So Bill Burns did say that in the trial.
• 1:12:06
  But we all thought he was lying. That's right.
• 1:12:08
  But apparently it's come out. Since that is see that's.
• 1:12:13
  A problem for me. One more thing.
• 1:12:17
  There was no Hitman, apparently that was a fabrication of the
• 1:12:20
  book. That there was obviously
• 1:12:22
  dramatized to the movie. So all the lefty Williams
• 1:12:26
  decision making. God, excuse me?
• 1:12:30
  These are the turning points. So I take another exception to
• 1:12:35
  that. That just changes the whole
• 1:12:36
  dynamic of everything. Now I understand like this is
• 1:12:38
  movie making and you need to make it interesting.
• 1:12:41
  Sounds like this whole thing wasn't really that interesting.
• 1:12:43
  The real life event, sure. Or did this movie just missed
• 1:12:46
  the mark? Well, to me the book came out.
• 1:12:49
  1st and the movie was made from the book from my perspective to
• 1:12:51
  wrap up my feelings. What do you think about it?
• 1:12:53
  But I love the movie. I loved it when.
• 1:12:55
  I first saw it. I think it's incredibly well
• 1:12:57
  acted and well paced and well cut and I just think it's
• 1:13:00
  fantastic. It's an incredibly watchable
• 1:13:02
  movie. As a person that does not like
• 1:13:03
  baseball, the fact that it doesn't deal with baseball
• 1:13:06
  specifically, I'm eating it up. So I love everything about that.
• 1:13:09
  OK. And I was because of
• 1:13:11
  performance, because I was like, I'm on Eddie side, of course,
• 1:13:14
  right? Yeah, I appreciate and
• 1:13:16
  understand where he's coming from.
• 1:13:17
  Lefties decision at the end, I totally get that too.
• 1:13:20
  All these elements I accepted in the movie was presented, loved
• 1:13:25
  every second of it. This movie is happily on the
• 1:13:26
  shelf and will unfortunately live in a DVD because I have
• 1:13:30
  never seen a higher grade copy come out.
• 1:13:32
  Yeah, I can see that. Very disappointed.
• 1:13:34
  So I'm like all over this movie. But because of my experience
• 1:13:37
  with Everest, I was thinking I'll dig a little deeper.
• 1:13:39
  Oh, let's open up. I'll spend a little time.
• 1:13:41
  Why not? Yeah, watch the.
• 1:13:42
  YouTube documentary of like an hour and a half of so this is
• 1:13:46
  like taking the blinders off of you.
• 1:13:48
  Because you don't typically even care.
• 1:13:50
  I still don't care because OK point.
• 1:13:52
  So you still don't care? Don't care.
• 1:13:54
  This movie to me, still works incredibly well.
• 1:13:56
  And I don't care that this was different or that it was
• 1:13:59
  different, because the movie exists as its own thing.
• 1:14:02
  So this further plants your feet.
• 1:14:05
  Into that line of thinking where it really doesn't matter what's
• 1:14:07
  true, right? Not in the movie, exactly.
• 1:14:08
  And I thought that was interesting it.
• 1:14:10
  Interesting to contrast how you yeah, like how you interpret
• 1:14:14
  certain things and how it can affect and paint an appreciation
• 1:14:16
  or not. Whereas for me, I watched it and
• 1:14:18
  like this movie is a hard yes on the shelf.
• 1:14:20
  I'll watch it again. I watch it in between.
• 1:14:22
  I knew the stuff and I watched the second time.
• 1:14:24
  I was like, this is still great. It doesn't matter to me.
• 1:14:27
  If Strathern had been worse or that scene had been less
• 1:14:30
  interesting, I would have maybe bumped on it.
• 1:14:32
  But for me, I'd love this movie and everything about it.
• 1:14:35
  I didn't think it would be an. Issue but because it's baseball
• 1:14:39
  that's my problem if we have this conversation about Everest,
• 1:14:43
  I don't think it would have bumped me but because of the
• 1:14:46
  tarnished baseball, the. Alterations that you.
• 1:14:49
  Made changed my feelings about real baseball players.
• 1:14:54
  Rubs me the wrong way. I don't know.
• 1:14:56
  Maybe I'm thinking too much into it.
• 1:14:57
  Like I'm with Eddie all the way and I feel I guess I've been
• 1:15:01
  duped. Duped a little bit.
• 1:15:02
  Yeah. And maybe it's just because it
• 1:15:04
  is baseball. I don't know.
• 1:15:05
  Yeah, maybe. I mean, maybe more like my wife.
• 1:15:07
  Than I want to admit that's it. You know, maybe it doesn't
• 1:15:09
  matter. It's tarnished somehow, right.
• 1:15:10
  Whereas I look at it completely separate entity.
• 1:15:13
  So it's fascinating folks. We do appreciate you listening,
• 1:15:15
  of course. And curious what your thoughts
• 1:15:18
  on the scandal or anything was really.
• 1:15:21
  Dave, what do we do next week? Well, I'm not going to give it
• 1:15:23
  all away, Phillip. OK, but next week we'll
• 1:15:26
  introduce a wall without a warning track, which was also
• 1:15:31
  misrepresented in the movie. Oh, what is that?
• 1:15:33
  The warning track is like the dirt before the wallet, the back
• 1:15:36
  to know that you're getting close.
• 1:15:38
  You can feel the dirt. I see.
• 1:15:39
  That didn't happen till later. See, those are things that don't
• 1:15:42
  bother me in the movie that aren't real.
• 1:15:44
  That didn't bother you, That didn't bother me.
• 1:15:46
  But there is a wall involved and it's pretty great.
• 1:15:49
  I just want to say, but I'm not giving away.
• 1:15:51
  I'm not giving away the movie. A wall that is great.
• 1:15:55
  One would say it's a Great Wall. Some might say.
• 1:15:57
  Some might say that, but who's to say?
• 1:16:01
  Who's to say? Is us folks as always, please
• 1:16:04
  rate the podcast 5 stars on your podcast your of choice subscribe
• 1:16:08
  to never miss an episode. Of course share the podcast with
• 1:16:10
  every 9th man you meet because the 1st 8 they're out they're
• 1:16:14
  out That's right. You can't talk to them.
• 1:16:16
  Don't waste your time, Talk to the night, yeah?
• 1:16:18
  DH.