Latest / Taking Initiative / Inside a split initiative: The path forward - Ohio’s Equal Rights and Marriage Equality initiatives
Transcript
- Laura Lucarelli: Welcome back to Taking Initiative. I'm Laura Lucarelli. Patricia Blackmon: I am Patricia Ann Blackmon Laura Lucarelli: Today we want to introduce a special guest to talk about an active campaign in Ohio brought by citizens for the Ohio Equal Rights Amendment. Patricia Blackmon: Yes, this is about direct democracy. We are excited to meet Lis Regula executive co-chair ⁓ Ohio Equal Rights Group. Welcome, Lis. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Lis Regula: so I am co-chair of OER currently volunteer led citizen initiative. I am also an educator in higher education, ⁓ dad, active within my Jewish community. I'm just somebody who is screwing around trying to do what I think is better for Ohio and in community with other people who share similar goals. Laura Lucarelli: you summarize for us what's happened with your campaign and what's happening right now? Lis Regula: Sure. where we're right now ⁓ is ⁓ within citizen ballot initiative space, you have to go through the first ⁓ thousand signatures for ⁓ get that certification, in front of the ballot board. ⁓ And then ⁓ your initiative petitions have been ⁓ those petitions out and Approximately 414,000 Ohio registered voters to sign on to your petition. We have passed the first certification ⁓ ⁓ collection phase, ⁓ up in front of the ballot board, were split by the ballot board into two separate petitions. ⁓ of them ⁓ the Ohio Equal Rights Amendment, which would add Equal Rights Amendment language to Ohio's state constitution, ⁓ one part ⁓ the right to marry amendment, which would overturn our 2004 state constitutional ban on same sex marriage replace it with inclusive language that would ⁓ ⁓ Obergefell v. Hodges into our state constitution ⁓ just case that ⁓ Supreme precedent were to be overturned. And we are in the midst of gathering ⁓ The mandated minimum is around 414,000 signatures. We're aiming for about 700,000 to give plenty of buffer room because in any ballot initiative like this, some signatures are thrown out because people register and then sign and move so their address doesn't match up or some people pass away, unfortunately, after signing things like that. So we're just giving ourselves that nice big space to account for whatever number of signatures do get thrown out. And that 414,000 with the goal of 700,000, that's per petition. So in our case, approximately 1.4 million signatures. Laura Lucarelli: It's a lot of John Hancock's. Lis Regula: Yes, it is. And a lot of really good conversations with Ohioans. Patricia Blackmon: Yeah, think you gave us a little of it in your introduction, but what is the inspiration ⁓ around this initiative? Lis Regula: So the inspiration is really seeing how Ohioans, especially those in marginalized communities have lost protections that we thought were more guaranteed than they were both at the state and federal level and how we've seen legislation being passed that targets certain populations. We are a trans-led organization. I will be entirely transparent about that. Ohio, that has been an area of concern. We see the HB 249 that is currently passed the House into the Senate, and that particular bill language is broad enough that it is not only a... First Amendment challenge to drag performers, people who are expressing their artistic selves in the way they feel appropriate. It is also a challenge to people who show up in gender nonconforming ways, which by definition trans people do. At least by the definitions within that bill and within current Ohio code. So things like that. in the state have been a problem for a while. And those of us in leadership who started in this space didn't really see a path forward with any kind of legislation. Ohio Fairness Act has stalled countless times and we have been gerrymandered into a position where there's not a lot of hope that the Ohio Fairness Act would pass. So this seemed like... the only route left other than flee the state, which I know plenty of people have done. Laura Lucarelli: Yeah. people have options, right? So yeah. ⁓ Yeah, I mean that's a pretty drastic option to ⁓ leave home because you're not welcome at home, right? And that's essentially the choice. Lis Regula: not to be a downer or anything. Yes, they do. But at the same time, at what point does a home stop being a home? When it is unsafe for people to be who they are and it is impractical for them to be able to live their lives. are you really leaving home or are you just going somewhere else? ⁓ And, you know, I focus on the trans community because of our history within Ohio Equal Rights, but, you know, it was part of that understanding that... Laura Lucarelli: Fair. Lis Regula: trans people on our own, we're not gonna be able to pass this, ⁓ and we wouldn't have the support to pass it. That was part of what led to us writing the language as inclusively as we did, because the language of the Ohio Equal Rights Amendment does encompass nearly every Ohioan in some way, shape, or form. Laura Lucarelli: I know that you modeled it ⁓ after some other states. Can you want to talk a little bit about that? Lis Regula: Sure. So Nevada is the state that we worked with the most, ⁓ in part because they are one of the states that was fairly recently passed for their state ERA. And in part because they were kind of what we were aiming for. ⁓ They were incredibly inclusive. They went for their particular initiatives in the opposite manner that we did. We did repro rights and now we're working on the ERA. ⁓ They did ERA. and now they're working, and then they worked on the repro rights. They were also ⁓ demographically fairly similar to Ohio. Fairly even mix ⁓ of rural and ⁓ very much ⁓ purple when you ask people policies and don't attribute a particular designation to them. ⁓ Laura Lucarelli: first. Lis Regula: So they seemed like a good model and they were willing to chat about what their process was like and how their experience went. ⁓ Patricia Blackmon: So you know, we might want to get into the weeds of this ballot initiative because we're trying to educate the community as to what ballot initiatives are. And I think the next question is if you could introduce us to the amendment. Just maybe outline it. Lis Regula: Sure. So like I alluded to, this started out as a single initiative. ⁓ From our perspective, inalienable rights, protections based on your identity, very much include the ability to marry the person that you care about, so long as they're consenting adult, all the usual caveats. The ballot board didn't see it that way, which is why we were split. ⁓ So the right to marry, simple, straightforward. The ERA, a little bit more, I don't know how much it is in the weeds, but it is a little bit longer. I left my weed whacker out on the back porch, so I'll have to try and cut through the weeds without it. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ does include a number of protected categories. ⁓ Patricia Blackmon: That's fair. That's fair. Lis Regula: including a lot of the common ones that people associate with an ERA, race, religion, gender, sex, nation of origin, et cetera. But it also introduces disability status, veteran status, recovery status, genetic information, family formation, and disease status for a total of 12 different categories along which an individual cannot be discriminated against And again, we have the usual in employment, housing, education, public accommodations, as well as the statement that discriminatory legislation is discrimination. Patricia Blackmon: So what we understand this amendment to be was one amendment and then the Ballot Boys split it. Could you try to get into an explanation of what this splitting process really means? Lis Regula: The traditional view of single topic within Ohio does not apply to the initial petition in the eyes of the ballot board. They were split along partisan lines. We had three Republicans and two Democrats, three saying this is not one topic, two saying yes, this is. We did not have to do much more than just kind of reconfigure the petitions themselves to align with the way they split it, marriage equality versus equal rights. It was a fairly simple, straightforward, logistical process. The harder part of the process was figuring out what to do, what we wanted to do, and what the community thought was best after this split. Laura Lucarelli: Had you considered litigation or were there other pathways? Lis Regula: We did. Really, when we got the decision back from the ballot board and we were looking at what to do in order to move forward, our lines of thinking were litigation, pick one of the petitions and try to pass one and then another at a later date, because two is hard, or go ahead and do two. You know, like we did with constructing the initial language, I cut through a lot of the weeds. So my apologies for that. But, you know, it hasn't been just a few of us making these decisions. We have actively sought both organizations and individuals across the state of Ohio to get their input. We did the same when we were faced with this ballot board decision and really asked, what does the community think is right? ⁓ Laura Lucarelli: we do. Lis Regula: of community town halls talking through what were the options, what would be the consequences of each of those options, pros and cons, and we were really glad to see that most folks were... Along the same lines as we were thinking that this needs to be done efficiently and effectively, in litigation, there's no real guarantee, especially with a 6-1 Supreme Court in our state, that the Supreme Court of Ohio would agree with the traditional interpretation of a single topic and say that yes, who you can marry and your inalienable rights are connected and thus should be one petition. And we did not want to risk setting a bad precedent here in Ohio. also didn't want to risk the time, ⁓ everything else that would come along with ⁓ litigate. Laura Lucarelli: Yeah, no, as a grassroots effort, it is lengthy and expensive. Pat, have you done any research on single subject rule? Have there been other campaigns that fought it and did they win? Patricia Blackmon: That's an interesting question, especially the way the Supreme Court has agreed that the single subject rule a decision for the ballot board. And they have a deferential. final subject, final arbiter for what is a single issue or a multiple issue. And I think the reason for that is because in reality, if it turns out that it is a multiple issue, it doesn't mean you lose any of the issues, but they have now reconstructed how this is going to be presented. And for the most part, I think the Supreme Court has been pretty good about this. They usually affirm what ballot comes to their decision. And there's an case that recently ⁓ was decided, where was a group that didn't like the way the ballot initiative was The board said it was a single issue and they tried to get it to overturn by going to the Supreme Court and make it multiple issues. And that's the DeBlase case. And the Supreme Court said no. The ballot says it's a single issue and we will live with it. Laura Lucarelli: So now come the logistics of they've split it in half. First of all, were you surprised that happened? Was that even in your thinking that could happen? Lis Regula: We knew it was a possibility and I was not horribly surprised. So it was. disappointing, but not something that we were totally set off center by. ⁓ Laura Lucarelli: It's good you knew it might happen so you could react to it. so now you're asked to carry two clipboards. are you working with your volunteers to make sure that they collect the signatures correctly? I mean, this is not as straightforward as collecting for one campaign. Lis Regula: no, it's as ⁓ straightforward. And, know, there are some tough conversations that our signature collectors have, and we've done ⁓ everything that can do to try and ⁓ give them materials and the practice ahead of time so that they're not going into those things blind. ⁓ From a perspective, we have really been encouraging people to, ⁓ you know, drives home ⁓ two people. To petition two signature collectors at a time, don't go by yourself. That is a safety thing as well. So it's good practice no matter what. And we do try to encourage folks to, especially if they're at a big event, have a table whenever possible so that you have surface area to set things down on and really keep an eye on who's doing what and be aware of. your surroundings, the person whose signature you're watching, all of that stuff. It has meant that we also kind of ⁓ to encourage ⁓ collectors, ⁓ really mindful about what you're doing. Whether the that works for you might be having two separate clipboards. you carry all the clipboards for right to marry and a partner all of the clipboards for the ERA, ⁓ it mean that ⁓ carry all of the County and your partner carries all of the Delaware County. You do what's right for you, and the important thing is being careful, being mindful, and just doing a good job, which they have been. I absolutely adore our signature collectors. Some of them are amazing in the number of signatures they can get and verify and the way that they can navigate crowded spaces. Laura Lucarelli: are everything in a campaign like this so it's nice to hear you praise them. you said volunteers are great, but how have citizens reacted to signing two clipboards? Are you hearing response that I'll sign this one, but I'm not signing that one as the ballot board told you would happen? Lis Regula: So we have had some folks who have said, I'll sign this one, not that one, but it's really uncommon. Most people have been happy to sign both. ⁓ more conversation that I've been hearing back from our signature collectors ⁓ is the number of people aren't fully aware ⁓ rights they have or don't have, what's been passed, what hasn't been passed. ⁓ were kinda expecting ⁓ conversations around the right to marry because yes, we currently do have Obergefell v. Hodges, Jim O'Bergfell, Ohioan, ⁓ absolutely character. Ohio raises cool people, what can I say? And that has been a little bit of a tricky conversation at some times because people will do the like we heard prior to Dobbs, well, but we already have this right. Why do we need to do anything? Why waste the time and resources around it? ⁓ think we with Dobbs not just the precedent of overturning a ⁓ presumed right, ⁓ but the decision called into is Obergefell a good decision or should we reconsider it? It also in ⁓ the Loving Trial. So... ⁓ ⁓ This is not normal time, as much as I hate to say it. ⁓ Laura Lucarelli: No, it's not. And can you tell us a little bit about Dobbs just for those who aren't familiar with it? Lis Regula: Sure, so Dobbs was the 2022 decision that overturned Roe v Wade and said that no, there is not a right to abortion. Roe v. Wade was an incorrect decision. This needs to be made at the state level. And here in Ohio, we made the decision in the wake of Dobbs to have the Repro Rights Amendment and assert within our state's constitution that no. Reproductive freedom, reproductive rights, reproductive healthcare is not separate from or different than other types of healthcare. It is healthcare. And people have a right to autonomy over their healthcare. Laura Lucarelli: Pat, this is one for you. So remind me about Signature Gathering in Ohio for ⁓ constitutional amendments. Patricia Blackmon: And I could give you a lot of information, and I'll try to keep this short. They need 413,487 to change or amend something on the Ohio Constitution, which is totally different from changing or voting a statute. For that, you only need 248,092 signatures. Both of these numbers are percentages of voters cast in the last governor's race. And so pretty much they're saying because this is a split amendment, you ⁓ need signatures ⁓ on And what is the good news is that if you only get the signatures on the marriage amendment, that amendment will go on the ballot. If you only get the signatures on the Equal Rights Amendment, that will go on the ballot. So it's an interesting concept. So a constitutional amendment aiming to get it this year, which would be the November 3rd election, the Secretary of State will check those signatures. And it should be around July ⁓ 1st that they get the answer. The 44 county distribution rule applies. Signatures come from 44 of the 88 counties, as Lis has pointed out. And you're looking at about 10%. you don't get all the signatures you need the county board of can extend it like 10 days. Laura Lucarelli: Lise, let me ask you, how's it going? How are you feeling about November? Lis Regula: So I love answering this question because while we often focus on the numbers, the numbers are not the only thing that decide when a petition should be submitted. Especially with a grassroots effort like this, we want to make sure that this ballot initiative has the best possible chances of succeeding. We wanna show respect for the volunteers that have gotten us to this point, for the people who have donated to help support the financial side. We wanna respect the organizations who have partnered with us and make sure that that resources of all types were not. gifted to us in vain. We wanna make sure that this has every possible chance of passing. That does mean looking at the numbers, yes, if it gets to the point at which we need to submit to meet that deadline and we have 450,000 signatures, that would be a really bad situation because... There's a likelihood that some of those are gonna get thrown out and some of them are gonna probably bring us down below that 413,000. Pat, you do far better at memorizing all of those numbers, that's why I round. And at that point... the petitions have been submitted and there's nothing we can do other than within that 10 day cure period, try to get it back over the number. And in a case like this, If you're that close to the finish line and that close to the number of signatures required, there's a really good likelihood that you probably haven't had tons of conversations with Ohioans. And we know that statistically speaking, people are more likely to vote no on a constitutional amendment if they don't understand it and they don't see a benefit. A known evil, the thing that we're doing right now that is seen by our brains as more safe than an unknown thing. Changing the constitution is a big deal and we understand that. So yes, numbers matter. We are also taking into account what it looks like is gonna happen with... other elections in November? Are we going to have a good turnout because turnout matters? Are we going to potentially have a change in the ballot board between now and when this gets implemented, when that goes through its process? Are there better possibilities for the ballot board? Patricia Blackmon: You know, one thing I thought about in addition to the 10 % overall, you have that 5 % rule. So you're bound by that. Even if you just spend, 5 % in certain of those counties, as long as you can get that 5%, you're at that threshold across the board. Do you have any comments about that? Lis Regula: Yeah, I think that's actually been a really interesting situation for us because obviously in Ohio, our city centers make up a big chunk of the population. That's a large portion of Ohioans in a small, compact area. You can't rely on ⁓ city to get to that 44 designation. You do have to rely on the rural counties. ⁓ And... ⁓ There is often a preconceived notion that rural counties are gonna be less amenable to something like this that is relatively progressive. Providing increased protections under the Constitution for Ohioans is progress. It is moving forward. Not making any judgment calls on that. Please don't read into it more than... what I'm saying. The interesting part for us has been some of those rural counties have actually been showing up proportionally better than our urban counties. When we look at who's closest to the finish line, is consistently, it has consistently been some of those rural counties that are really turning through signatures and getting... Laura Lucarelli: No kidding, that's wonderful. Lis Regula: relatively or proportionally closer than the urban centers at a faster rate. Patricia Blackmon: You're talking about in terms of the 5%. Lis Regula: Mm-hmm. warms my country boy heart ⁓ we defy those ⁓ Laura Lucarelli: ⁓ we all know it takes lot of time, effort and money, blood, sweat and tears to bring an initiative to the ballot. Why you doing it? Lis Regula: No. ⁓ Patricia Blackmon: That may be a good answer. Lis Regula: I was raised very much under the impression that to be a good dad, you leave the world a little bit better place for your kids. That's it. That's your goal. And... looking at where I come from. 1980s rural Ohio. The rights that we have seen change both move forward and move back. In the case of marriage equality, it's been a dance. ⁓ And the way the landscape has shifted just within my lifetime, I don't see many ways for me to leave the world a better place for my kiddo other than to make sure that she has a baseline level of rights. that we had taken for granted. Laura Lucarelli: Thank you for looking out for her future and the future of so many others in Ohio. We wish the best to you and your organization. Whether it gets on the ballot this November or holds off for a different environment, we're gonna watch this one closely and wish you the best of luck. Lis Regula: I appreciate it.