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Straight Talk on Accounting's Big Issues with Dr. Sharon Lassar · The Accounting Podcast

• Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding! Blake Oliver: [00:00:10] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. I'm excited to have Sharon Lassar joining us on the show today. Dr. Lassar is the director of the School of Accountancy at the University of Denver. She has a PhD from the University of Southern California and is a licensed in Florida. Dr. Lassar has dedicated her career to accounting, education and advancing the profession. She's a past chair of the Colorado Society of CPAs and a current member of the AICPA Council. Many of you may also know Dr. Lassar from her insightful articles on Going Concern, where she has been sharing her perspective on topics like the 150 hour rule and pathways to becoming a CPA. Her pieces have sparked meaningful conversations within the profession, and today we're going to discuss some of those issues that Dr. Lassar has covered in her writing, including potential changes to licensing requirements and increasing diversity in accounting. Looking forward to digging into these topics with you. Dr. Lassar, welcome to the show. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:01:06] Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Blake Oliver: [00:01:08] And as always, I'm joined by my co-host, David Leary. David, how are you? David Leary: [00:01:12] Hi, everybody. In your intro, Blakey, when you said insightful is like insightful or insightful. Like, which, which. Insightful. Insightful is this? Blake Oliver: [00:01:22] Well, that's a good question. Maybe we should put that to Dr. Lazar. Dr. Lazar, if you could make one change to licensing requirements, what would it be and why? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:01:33] If I could make one change, it would be to allow individuals that have a bachelor's degree in accounting with substantial accounting and business education to obtain a license after two years of experience and passing the exam. That would be the change I would make two. Blake Oliver: [00:01:52] Years of experience in passing the exam. So basically reverting from 150 hours, the extra 30 semester hours and going back to 120 and letting people do that with with two years of experience. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:02:04] And I have to correct you right there. Not hours, not ours degree, degree. So degree bachelor's degree. And the reason this is important is because there is a national movement that is gaining traction to allow universities to award bachelor's degrees after three years. And so if you have a 120 hour requirement, that's four years of education in what might become a three year world. And so it's just perpetuating the problem. So I think we need to step back from this hour requirement and say you need a degree and within that degree you can have specialized hour requirements in 24 hours of accounting or 30 hours of accounting, whatever the requirement is. David Leary: [00:02:51] But if we're going to make a change, make the change to account for what's coming in the future, not just to be Exactly. It makes a lot of sense. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:02:58] Yeah. Not to patch and Idaho is already implementing a three year bachelor's degree, so it's not like it's years away. It's it's on the cusp. And so I think we need to think towards the future when we make these changes. Blake Oliver: [00:03:12] That's interesting because I hadn't heard about that trend in bachelor's degrees going to three years. I know that abroad in many other countries it's possible to earn a bachelor's degree in three years. They compress it. And so I guess, you know, why not do that here? And I guess that brings me to another point that you've called out in some of your articles, which is that if you are licensed as an accountant abroad, you can come to the United States and get your CPA through reciprocity without having to do these extra hours that CPAs here have to do. Can you explain that a bit more? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:03:48] Yes. So you have to find a jurisdiction who's willing to do it. So but within the 54 jurisdictions, we'll leave Hawaii out because they're so quirky. But, you know, within the 54 jurisdictions, you can find one that would be willing to give you reciprocity at a national level. Naspa has entered what are called mutual recognition agreements, and these mutual recognition agreements work both ways. Licensed CPAs from here, for example, can go to Scotland and practice and then Scottish CPAs or chartered accountants, I guess they are, can come here and provide that. The jurisdiction recognizes that mutual recognition agreement and the substantial equivalency which most do. There are a few that don't, but most do. Then that Scottish chartered accountant can obtain their CPA license here in that jurisdiction in the United States, and then they have mobility across the country. So it's only that first step where they have to check the rules and make sure that they can get that, you know, that license. But yes, so Scotland, I think it's a three year education I'm sorry, a three year experience requirement, but there's no extra hours. So it's it's there's no 150 hours requirement. David Leary: [00:05:07] So using that example. So I'm in Scotland. I'm a chartered accountant. Come to the States. Do I have to sit for the entire exam? Do I just take a part of the exam? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:05:15] So you only take the. And this this is something that's kind of interesting, too, because the rule is that you take what's called the IQ, and then when you read into it, what is the IQ? It's the read section of the exam. So that's all you need to take. And so, yeah, it's I think they charge more. So it's like $895 to sit for the read section. Whereas if you're sitting for the read section as part of your CPA exam itself here in the United States, then you're you're paying $85. No, $225 per section, I think, to take the exam here after you pay the notice, the fee and those sorts of things. Blake Oliver: [00:05:56] So, Dr. Lazaar, in several of your articles, you've cited research on the impact of the 150 hour rule. What research was the most compelling to you in questioning the need for 150? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:06:11] So the most compelling research is the article by John Barrios that was published in Journal of Accounting Research. In Journal of Accounting Research is a it's a journal that's very difficult to publish in. I think John spent five years working on that paper. It's part of is part of his dissertation and he shows very compellingly with data that he was able to collect from multiple methods, one of them being matching of LinkedIn data that the 150 hour rule resulted in. A 15% if you use the most strict methods of statistical analysis. 15% drop in the number of candidates sitting for the CPA exam, but the number of candidates pursuing the CPA. And that 15% drop came from both sides of the spectrum. So people who are low ability versus high ability both dropped out. And so the low ability you don't care about because they probably won't get through the exam anyway. But when you're losing top candidates to other fields of study because of the implementation of 150 hour rule, that's a that's a concern. So it's not only that we're losing supply, but we're losing some really good supply. And so that would be the most compelling study. Blake Oliver: [00:07:37] Yeah, I mean, it is a big hassle, right? And there are other majors, adjacent majors, that don't require an additional year of education. So it makes sense to me that we would be losing some very talented people that don't want to spend the extra time when the salaries are either similar or even slightly less than other majors. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:07:57] And other majors are. You know, they're attractive for a lot of other reasons, too. So and it's not like these students don't talk to each other. I mean, they're sorority sisters and fraternity brothers and and, you know, individual roommates in the dormitories. And they hear about the other majors and the internship opportunities available in the other majors and and the jobs that are out there. And this is a different world than it was 30, 40 years ago. And there's not a student graduating from any of our programs that aren't landing in great opportunities for them career wise. And a lot of those careers are with the firms that are trying to hire the accounting students. They're not hiring just accounting students. They're hiring across the university. Blake Oliver: [00:08:46] Yeah, we've seen that CPA firms are hiring fewer future CPAs and are and accounting majors and have broadened the pool. So yeah so even they even CPA firms are are changing how they they view this. Let's talk about the impact let's say we achieve this and there's this alternative pathway for just the bachelor's degree. So for the CPA exam, get your CPA no more 150 required. What would be the impact in your view if we did that? Would would that solve the talent shortage? I mean, would it would it cause problems with the quality of work? That's been one of the main criticisms of changing anything is that we need this extra year of education to keep high quality in accounting. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:09:34] Well, that is the argument. That's one of the arguments that has been made for the 150 hour requirement. But, you know, whichever argument you pick, whether it's higher quality, whether it's more maturity of the students, whether it's better communication skills that the graduates pick an argument, I don't care. Pick an argument as to why we have 150 hours and then show me any data that supports that argument. And there is none. There's none that exists that says that this 150 hour rule has the impact that it was supposed to have. And so if it's not having the impact it's supposed to have, why do we keep it? Blake Oliver: [00:10:16] And Rick Reiswig, chair of Naspa, argued in a piece on Bloomberg Tax that the 150 hour education requirement has elevated the stature of the accounting profession. What do you say to that? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:10:31] I would say show me data that supports that statement. I don't see any data that supports that statement. A CPA today? Or do we have more respect than a CPA 30 years ago? I don't think so. I. How does that elevate the stature? What does that mean to elevate the stature? It makes it harder to become a CPA. It erects a time barrier. And I'm not saying a quality barrier. I'm not saying an intellectual barrier. I'm just saying a time barrier. It erects a time barrier. And the reason I say it doesn't erect a quality barrier or an ability barrier is because that extra 30 hours is hollow. You can get those extra 30 hours in anything at any level. There are proponents out there saying, well, you can go to a community college and pick things up. My state, we only accept a certain number of hours from a community college because we recognize the fact that the courses that one can take in accounting at a community college often are things like payroll accounting or there's even courses still on. You know, they used to call them keyboarding. They don't call them keyboarding anymore, but it's basically, you know, that type of a course. They are courses designed to train individuals to go into bookkeeping. And if you're picking up your extra hours that way, how is that elevating the profession? I don't follow that argument. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:12:04] And so anyway, you asked a question I didn't answer yet, which is what would be the immediate impact of a reverting to 120? And I would say the one impact is that we would stop seeing students leave the accounting major. I don't have this problem at University of Denver because we do such a great job advising our accounting majors. And we we we get them through the program very quickly with both a bachelor's and a master's in accountancy. We are very careful about advising them on how to maximize their experience as an undergraduate school, as an undergraduate student, while they meet their their requirements. But at a lot of universities that have large class sizes and not the same, you know, hands on full time student that we have here at University of Denver, they are seeing students that start as accounting majors, if they're lucky to get them to start. So they're lucky. You know, maybe I can get 20 students to start as an accounting major and then by the end of the year, they're down to 15 because students leave the major when they meet their friends and they hear about their friends opportunities. And, gee, I can I can you know, I can go into this other field with just a bachelor's degree. Why do I study accounting? I had one school tell me that they're losing more at the senior year than they are at the junior year, that even as even as a student is closer to graduation, they're still moving out of the major. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:13:35] But if they had 120 hours, if they had a bachelor's degree requirement, not 120 hours, they had a bachelor's degree requirement, then it would be easier for us to keep the student as an accounting major and say, listen, you want to go into data science, you can do that as an accounting major. You want to go into finance. You can do that as an accounting major, stay in the major, finish the degree, and then in a couple of years, if you find out that working in banking was not all you had hoped it would be, you can come back, take the exam, move into an accounting at a later point in life and you're still qualified. Whereas now there are students are looking at this and saying, Well, I'm never going to be qualified in accounting if I don't get 150 hours. So why stay in the major? And so I think that would be the most immediate impact, is it would help us as university professors at least keep what we have and then also attract more because, you know, it's easier to talk someone into a degree where you can show that at a bachelor's degree level, you still have this great career option open to you. David Leary: [00:14:53] So so just because you're obviously speaking to a lot more college students than we are, if I'm understanding correctly, the hallway conversations like the environment is, hey, there's possibilities of getting a degree in three years. And when you look at accounting, basically it's people are saying that's a five year degree. That's true. And that that mindset is there in the hallways. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:15:15] It is. It is. And it might not be there at the freshman year level, but they certainly find out about it along the journey. Blake Oliver: [00:15:23] So, Dr. Eleazar, you direct the School of Accountancy at the University of Denver. Are you not concerned that changing this would result in a decline in the number of students enrolling in the Master's of Accountancy program? I feel like a lot of the resistance in the academic world is due to that concern. Are you not worried about a decline in your master's program? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:15:48] You know, people talk about the resistance of academics. And I was before I became an academic, I was a tax practitioner. And people would claim that tax practitioners liked tax law changes because it protected our jobs. And I say, no, that's not true. You know, we're all pretty smart people. If the tax code went away tomorrow, we'd find something else to do. And I would say it's the same thing on the academic world. We're not resisting this change as a as a general rule. Of course, I'm I'm extrapolating the opinions of the people that I talk to, to the whole population. I'm sure that not everyone agrees, but I'm not worried about losing master's degree candidates if this requirement goes away because a graduate education has value, if it's a worthwhile graduate education, and we can show and again with data. So you asked me, you know, what studies? So John Barrios's study shows that there is value to a graduate degree. There's no value to a 130 or an extra 30 hours, but there is value to a graduate degree. Individuals with graduate degrees are promoted faster. They spend less time in their. Steps along the way. They have better career outcomes. They have more doors open to them. We can convince students of the value of a good graduate degree regardless of whether they need it to become a CPA. So, no, I'm not worried about losing enrollment if this rule were to change, because I know that my faculty produce fabulous students with great career options because of the graduate education they receive along the way. Blake Oliver: [00:17:35] The graduate degree, the Masters has enough value on its own, at least the one that that you oversee to so that you're not worried about a decline in enrollment. And that makes sense to me because if somebody really doesn't want to do the master's, they already have another option, which is to just go get 30 random semester hours somewhere else. So exactly. So who is really going to like how would that increase the number that that don't do the master's. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:18:00] Yeah. So the number there are a lot of pretty poor master's degree programs out there and those programs exist because of the extra 30 hour rule. Those programs are in danger, but quite frankly, they're shutting down now anyway because of lack of enrollment, because if you have spots for 80,000 and I'm making up a number, so forgive me, but if you have spots for 80,000 students in graduate degree programs and there's only 60,000 students to fill those 80,000 spots, well then 20,000 spots are going to have to disappear. And it's going to be the weaker schools that have a decline in enrollment to the point where they cannot sustain their master's program. And that is already happening. And that will happen at a greater rate as states adopt what they're talking about now, which is not only can you get your 30 hours in anything anywhere, now they're saying it doesn't even have to be part of a of a degree program. Um, you can pick up these hours you know some are proposing through continuing education this experience learn and earn program that the AICPA is suggesting online courses that are 100% asynchronous I don't know have you Googled take my online course and see how many people you can hire to take your online course for you. I mean, why? Blake Oliver: [00:19:29] Well, now now you don't even necessarily need people to do it. You can just use ChatGPT to take your online course. Yes. Yeah, well aware of that. And I want to get to that concern with online courses being very susceptible to cheating, but we don't. Go ahead, David. Oh, so before. David Leary: [00:19:49] You jump into that, I was just going to ask if Sharon can play the opposite hypothetical of what would happen if they just said, you have to get you have to have a mac. So instead of doing the 30 hours of anything, you have to get a mac. What would the impact of that be? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:20:03] Yeah, so that would be a problem also. And that's why I'm not proposing that. Although if if I could turn back time and implement this rule the right way, that should have been the rule from day one that you need a graduate education. And then at the time when we had the the more potential CPAs than we had need for CPAs, putting in that qualification at that time would have made sense. But now we are in such a shortage that, you know, a graduate education is is not open for everyone. I know when I was in school, one of the choices, one of the reasons I'm an accountant is because an accounting degree was a four year program. I really wanted to be an architect, but architecture was five years. And so even coming out of high school, I thought, well, gee, I can't afford to go to school for five years. I can barely afford to go to school for four years. And so that kept me from pursuing what was my passion in high school. And so I think if we were to implement a requirement that all CPAs have a master's degree in this environment, we really would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Blake Oliver: [00:21:30] I want to talk about the program, but before we go there, let's talk about one of the other objections, possibly the greatest and most commonly cited objection to changing the current licensure requirements, the education requirements, and that is the impact on mobility, the ability for CPAs to practice across state lines without having to get re licensed in every jurisdiction. If mobility was impacted by states changing the education requirements, what would be the consequences? Do you. By this concern, this argument. It's the number one argument put forward by the AICPA. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:22:09] It is the number one argument. And I believe they're holding people who propose that as the argument are holding it, as I'd say, the perfect propaganda. Now, yes, rules would have to be changed. License. License rules sometimes would have to be changed in the legislation. There would be changes needing to be made to make sure that we preserve that mobility because of the way the many of the rules are written in many states. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. So as an example, you know, this this expansion of the exam window from 18 months to 30 months, Nasba put out proposed wording. All the states adopted it. Bam, We've got a 30 year, 30 month window that happened in under I don't know, it was proposed in February and adopted by what, August or something. It was a very, very quick turnaround. So to say that it took us 30 years to achieve mobility and it will take us 30 years to go back is baloney, in my opinion, because it's a lot harder to build a wall than it is to tear one down. And and so, yes, I'm looking for Naspa to say here's proposed legislation. Here's what we would need to put into our our state rules across the country to preserve mobility while we are changing the rules. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:23:41] And it's not like we haven't had phase in legislation and other areas of our life before, you know that that happens. So there could be a solution. What is troubling to me is that there's no one proposing that solution. And so I'm thinking, okay, well, if we can't get our trade organization, if we can't get naspa to write legislation for us, there are some conservative think tanks out there that help write proposed rules and propose legislation that then can be pushed through through lobbying efforts. And so if I can't get proposed wording from Naspa, maybe I can get proposed wording from one of these other organizations that would help change the licensure rules. And so I guess, is that what we want? Do we want, you know, people like me to reach out to organizations that write model legislation in other areas and say, Hey, could you write model legislation for me to take to the legislature here in Colorado and try to get them to change the rules? I don't know. But maybe that's the only route. Blake Oliver: [00:25:01] Speaking of Colorado, is there anything going on in the state of Colorado around changing the license requirements? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:25:08] Not yet. I have been sitting through our Board of accountancy meetings, and this is why I know how easy this would be if Nasba would take the leadership, because I witnessed the change in the rules to go from an 18 month window to a 30 month window. And if Nasba says it, the executive director of the Board of Accountancy is on board and the board members are on board. And the legislator, the the lawyer who advises the board is on board because the guidance came from the national organization and all states are doing this and bam, they make a motion, take a vote. It's done. But without that leadership from Nasba at the national level, it's really, really hard to make change at the Board of Accountancy. Yeah, accountants are busy. You know, accountants don't have time to to write letters and to lobby. You know, we expect our professional associations to do that for us. Blake Oliver: [00:26:18] Yeah. I was speaking to the outgoing chair of a major state society, and she told me that it's a job that you can really only take when you're on your way out of a firm because it takes so much of your time and you're still expected to bill hours. And so it's often the last job you have before you retire from the firm. And I wonder if that's why in leadership, we seem to have so many people who are at the end of their careers and are seemingly out of touch with the rest of the profession. I'd be curious to get your take on this. Dr.. When when we talk to CPAs around the country, David and I travel around to conferences all over the place. I would say the opposition to the current 150 is almost unanimous among the CPAs that I talked to, at least 80 to 90%. And when I talk to folks who have been in rooms where this is discussed and a vote is taken, you know, these are anecdotal results, but it's overwhelmingly let's change the rules. Let's go back to a bachelor's degree or at a 120 or something less than an extra year. Is that in your experience, the you know, the reading the room, is that how you see it? And why do you think that the AICPA are so resistant to change when it seems like a very popular thing to do? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:27:45] Well, I you know, I'm speculating, but I think the current leadership of Nasba and AICPA were the same individuals that helped push this through to get the 150 and to say I was wrong, I made a mistake. That's a big thing for someone to do. It's hard for someone to do that. On the other hand, what you just said about how leaders in the firms or leaders that have the time to lobby are on their way out. They're on their way to retirement. We can just wait until they retire so we can find a way for them to vent. And, you know, and we will put together a commission to listen to them and hear their concerns and propose solutions. And we take a long enough time doing that. They are retired and they're out of the picture now so we can go back to what we were doing before. So know I'm speculating, you know, here, but I think that the current leadership at the AICPA is sees themselves as too far invested into this extra 30 hour rule to to go back. Blake Oliver: [00:29:07] Let's talk about what the EPA is doing with the experience, Learn and Earn program. This is a program where students are enrolled in a fifth year of education at an accredited university. And they're also working full time at a firm. They're employed at a firm, and they're taking online classes to earn the extra 30 semester hours of credits. What are your concerns around that program? There's there's one currently in it's like a beta is not the right word. It's a test program at I think it's Tulane. What's the problem with that? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:29:52] So, you know, if you were to go back before the pandemic, you know, online learning was going to change the world, we were going to have, you know, everyone was going to be able to teach themselves everything through massive online courses. And then the pandemic hit, and we had students having to go to class online by force for two years. And if you look in the know K through 12 system, they're seeing the learning that was lost during that time. So online education works great for a lot of people, people who are self-motivated, who have the time to invest in themselves, who can take advantage of all of the opportunities that are available through the Internet. So it works for a lot of people, but in my experience, it doesn't work all that well for college students who are trying to navigate a complex system. You know, as an example, here at Du, we have these talks with our students, you know, and the first one of the year is how to work the career fair or the meet the firms. We review their resumes, we give them pointers. We we prepare them in the spring. We have another one that's dedicated towards the CPA exam. You know, we feed them dinner, they come for dinner. And while they're having dinner, we walk them through the application process and the timing process and how many hours we suggest that they build into their schedule for studying and how they can work those sections into their course structure so that when they have completed the auditing course, they're ready to sit for the auditing section of the exam as example, and how they can navigate whether they want to sit as a Colorado resident or use one of the other jurisdictions because of something that's unique in their academic journey that causes them not to immediately qualify in the state that they intend to eventually get to. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:32:01] And the questions that the students ask on How do I do this? And we're able to guide them through. Learning is is a is a group process. If you study with friends and you test each other and you engage in these discussions with one another, you learn more and you become comfortable with one another and you have a safe space and you can ask these questions. I worry about these students or these candidates, let's say, that are expected to go on their own to an employer that, yes, the employer is going to be supportive, but the employer is also managing a client course load. They're not dedicated to the success of their workforce in their academic pursuits like a professor would be. And in these students, these candidates are expected to learn this material on their own when they have time, not in study groups, not because everyone has an assignment due on Tuesday, and so everyone gets together on Monday night to do that Tuesday, due date assignments without that support structure in place, how are they going to succeed? And so if you take away all the other concerns with online learning, just that, just that mentorship of the candidates to get them through the process, without that mentorship, I don't know how many will actually get through at the end of the day. And then we could have a whole other podcast on what kind of courses they might be. But that's a that's a that's for another day. Blake Oliver: [00:33:42] Well, one of my concerns about this program is that it's based on my own experience. I was working I was self-employed, freelancing as a bookkeeper when I was taking my credits so that I could sit for the CPA exam as a career changer. And I was enrolled at UCLA's extension program and taking classes at night 1 or 2 at a time. And if I was taking two, it was pretty much every day of the week. I would be on campus in the evenings for 2 or 3 hours at a time. And it was a lot. It was really hard. And I even had the classroom there. I tried taking some of the courses online and I completely failed and I'm a good student. I needed to have that classroom. And I saw a lot of my fellow students struggle. And, you know, by the time we finished this program, we had shrunk maybe 20% of the people who had started were still in the accounting certificate program at the end. And so I also worry that trying to get getting these students to work full time while they're enrolled in these online classes is a recipe for disaster because. It's already a problem in the profession that staff have too many hours. Right. That's one of the reasons they tend to leave is because they're overworked. So we're asking them now to work in their first year, also complete 30 semester hours of education. That sounds really hard. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:35:12] Yeah. And you know, the AICPA will come back and say, no, no, if you roll the program, the employer has to has to promise not to work them more than 30 hours per week. No, that's not true. They say that that's that's the plan. But they they can at their option, work over time or work full time, if not over time. So as long as that door is open. Yeah, you've got that option, you've got that opportunity, and you have work that needs to be done. And show me an accountant that doesn't have more than enough work that needs to be done. It's not going to happen, like you said. And we already saw this. I mean, before I came to I'm very fortunate to be at a university now that has, you know, basically 100% full time students in our bachelor's degree programs. Master's degree is different, but the bachelor's degree programs, our students are traditional students straight from high school, go to school during the academic year. They work during the summer. They come back to school. They finish, you know, 98% graduate in four years or something crazy like that in the accounting program here. But I have been at schools that have a large part time student body or commuter student body. And they they call themselves part time because they're also working full time, but they're carrying a full time course load. And so by the time they get through with the education, it's like, oh my goodness, I finally got through with the education. But they haven't sat for the exam yet. And, you know, and I saw in my prior institutions that individuals would come up to that five year mark where you had to have the exam past to be promoted to manager. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:36:57] And they still didn't have the exam passed and they would come back and contact me and say, Hey, do you have any review materials or do you have a review class going on? Or how can I how can you help me get through this? And it was like, you know, five years later and you still haven't passed the exam. So what the firms are doing now is that they're looking for alternative certifications. So, you know, the CPA profession, our professional society and Naspa isn't helping us any by putting in a system that will lead to more people in this type of situation because they come up to that five year mark now. And I was just talking to a graduate at our kickball tournament. We have a kickball tournament with alumni every year and at our kickball tournament on Friday, I was talking to a graduate and she said that she's so glad she got the exam done. She's working with someone who is a manager, doesn't have or is about to be promoted to manager, but doesn't have the exam done, but they're allowed to get alternative certification, so her manager might get a CSA instead. And in the tax world, people are getting enrolled agent certifications instead. So the long term view of the profession is that it's being whittled away because we haven't addressed the pipeline issue in a way that solves the problem. Blake Oliver: [00:38:24] Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing that really worries me, is that if firms themselves, firms start looking for alternative designations in order to advance their people, and the CPA is no longer the one that they're exclusively using. I mean, that really hits at the value of the CPA. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:38:46] And so, yeah, exactly. So how does that elevate the profession? So back to that question. Blake Oliver: [00:38:53] Yeah, Yeah. What about the concerns you have over cheating in the program? You you said that these programs, these online programs need to have certain safeguards in place to prevent that. I totally agree. I haven't taken online classes. It would be very easy to pay somebody to take the class for me, that sort of thing. What do you think should be in place there at a minimum? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:39:13] Yeah. Well, you know, before we get to the safeguards on the ELA courses, I would say the first thing we also need is we need a commitment on the data that will be collected and shared and not an excuse. Well, this is private data. Well, then you have everyone sign an agreement to release their data as part of participating in this program. And so let us see, you know, do we have a situation where only 20% are left at the end like you experienced? But then back to, okay, cheating? Well, asynchronous, 100% asynchronous online classes, you can hire somebody to take if you want to try to get around that There are you have to monitor. Okay. Where are you signing in from with the IP address that does that IP address match, you know where you are physically located? There are things that you can do. Schools that do that are few and far between. I think I read one study that said something like 93% of faculty expected that their students were cheating during Covid when we had to teach online. But only 30% of the faculty were taking precautions that were already available at that time. And and whatever the precaution is, there's a way around it. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:40:38] So, you know, the stories about, you know, someone who was found by there's a software product out there where the student to sign in to take an exam has a lockdown browser. They can't go anywhere else while they're taking the exam. They have to walk their computer around the room so the camera can capture their environment to show that they don't have any, you know, papers on the walls that give them the answers or things of that sort. And they are recorded while they take the exam. And then if something happens during the recording that is suspicious, the instructor gets an email saying, Hey, you want to look at the recording at 30 minutes and 25 seconds and see what happened there at And this this software company said they found one student that had taken exams for nine different people. And this was with these precautions in place. So, you know, giving young people that are under pressure to try to get this done and working at the same time giving them the opportunity to hire someone to take their class to me is unethical. Why would you put somebody in that situation? Why would you tempt them like that? I just think it's a very poor practice. Blake Oliver: [00:42:06] Well, Dr. Lazar, it's been wonderful having you on the show. Could you summarize for us again? Well, let's let me put it a different way. Let's say that I wave a magic wand and you are now the chair of Nasba. You are president of the AICPA. What would you do tomorrow? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:42:27] Tomorrow, I would release proposed language asking state boards of accountancy to change their rules or their laws, whichever needs to be changed, to allow individuals that have a bachelor's degree in accounting or its equivalent plus two years of experience to become CPAs and to recognize as substantially equivalent anyone who comes in with those credentials from another licensed. Actually, I would go a step further. I would say if you're licensed in any state, you should be recognized in any other state for purposes of mobility. So an unconditional mobility clause where licensed in any of the jurisdictions you're good to travel to any of the other jurisdictions. Blake Oliver: [00:43:21] And we saw the nursing profession successfully make a change like that. During Covid due to all the traveling that nurses had to do to get around to different surge areas. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:43:31] It didn't take 30 years, Blake. Is that what you're telling me? It didn't take 30 years. Did not take 30 years. Blake Oliver: [00:43:36] Well, and I really like your point. I hadn't heard that before. About the about the change to the CPA exam window. They got that done in about six months. And if that can happen, I mean, that's all the states had to adopt this change, right? If they can make that happen, then changing the other requirements. It seems like, you know, as long as, like you said, as long as the national leadership was on the same page and pushed it down to the states. It could happen. But I guess the big issue right now is that the AICPA are not on board in any way with this change. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Well, hopefully I really hope that the thing that I wish they would do is survey the members. Nasba or AICPA could very easily put out a digital survey to all of the members asking them if they support an alternative to 150 and if they support, like you said, this idea of let's just make mobility simpler, right? Recognize a CPA from any state in any other state. I'd be curious to know the answer, but they haven't done it. And I don't know if they're going to. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:44:52] They probably don't want the answer. Blake Oliver: [00:44:56] Well, we'll leave it there. Dr. Sharon Lessar of the University of Denver, thank you so much for joining us and for your insights. If our listeners want to connect with you online, follow you. Where is the best place for them to go? Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:45:12] So I do have a LinkedIn page. I that's the only place I am and but I also am available through the university. So you can go straight to the university website and find me there. Blake Oliver: [00:45:23] We will have links to your LinkedIn and to your page on the university website. It's been great chatting with you. Thanks so much for your time. Dr. Sharon Lassar: [00:45:33] Thank you. I appreciate. [00:45:34] It. Take care.