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SAC, SWAC, East, West, Mid, Oh My · United We Scan

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Thank you. Now here are the hosts of the
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United We Scan podcast. Welcome back everybody.
1:02
Episode 57. We're going to kind of go over a
1:07
little about a Sack Swack, East, West and mid states.
1:12
Oh my Tonight and your Nose. Probably throw in a few other
1:16
little things. So we're going to wing it
1:18
tonight. Why not?
1:20
How was your week, Josh? My week was pretty good.
1:26
Cold like everyone else but. And then of course I ordered
1:30
that heated vest which was on a super Duper deluxe sale.
1:36
What was that? Thurs.
1:38
Wednesday, Thursday. And it came Thursday.
1:42
It got delivered while I was on the, you know, to the house
1:45
while I was at work. So it was sitting on the porch
1:48
when I got home. And of course by Wednesday, I
1:53
think this week it's going to be almost 70 again.
1:55
So that we used to have it exactly, exactly, just in time
2:05
to miss the coldest day of the you know, so far I.
2:12
Won't see 70 until like, July. OK, well.
2:18
It's not my fault you decided to live in the middle of no Man's
2:22
land, Timbuktu Arctic. Up here it wasn't by choice
2:27
this. Is it was by choice to stay?
2:32
Hey, you know. To quote the Madagascar movies,
2:37
you can move it, Move it. You can move it.
2:41
Yeah, but yeah. So in there infinite wisdom to
2:47
help reduce letters being scanned and the SPMS that should
2:57
not be. Someone made the decision that
3:00
we need to start using a Reg marker and cross out the bar
3:05
codes on the letters, which they let us know about Saturday
3:09
morning and handed everyone a brand new Reg marker.
3:15
I didn't do it on Saturday. I have that one huge business
3:18
which will get anywhere from 1:00 to 5:00 DPS trays a day, so
3:23
my end of shift duty time on Saturdays is about to get
3:27
outrageous. I'm going to definitely be
3:29
showing up on some report for 1/2 hour hour in addition to my
3:35
regular cleanup time. But James, how was your week?
3:40
Well, we've we were told that about the barcodes and scanning
3:46
for the SPMS a couple of weeks ago and they told us that you
3:53
don't do it for hold mail and you stick this little flag, a
3:57
little parcel marker in front of that mail so that way you don't
4:01
scan that mail when you go to put it in the box with your SPM.
4:05
We weren't told anything about not scanning anything else or
4:08
anything like that except Tuesday when we got in, they
4:12
said if you get an SPM, just mark that you already passed it
4:16
because of all the mail that got left over because of the 8
4:19
inches of snow we got here. And I had no problem getting
4:24
everything out and getting done with the route that day because
4:28
they told me take only the packages because I was in the
4:30
office until 3:00 PM just dealing with all that mail from
4:34
Saturday and Monday and Tuesday because of the holiday.
4:38
So it was a pretty long day, Ended up going home at 6:30 at
4:42
night that day. Next day I took all the mail out
4:46
separate. I did my Wednesday mail in one
4:50
tray, had the the Tuesday weekend Saturday mail in another
4:55
tray, and then my parcels next to that.
4:57
And I didn't get done until 6:00.
5:00
Got it all done and finally on Thursday I was back to normal.
5:05
But unfortunately a lot of my roads don't get plowed for at
5:10
least three days and it's been over a week and they still
5:13
haven't plot them. Look out of love my Rd.
5:16
Commission but been able to delivered all the boxes because
5:19
at least a lot of my customers care about getting their mail
5:23
and clear the boxes out for me, which I'm very, very thankful
5:26
for. And other than that it's just
5:30
normal week. And then it was I think Thursday
5:35
or Friday. I Thursday my supervisor decided
5:42
to make a stand up talk about getting out of the office by
5:47
10:00 AM every day and I told him it's not right, it's wrong.
5:53
And I called my ADR and when I was on the phone with her he
5:57
actually brought out the 2011 version of the PO6O3 which is
6:02
the latest current print version of the PO6O3 and showed me where
6:07
within 20 minutes of leave time and so on.
6:11
We have to be within that mark on our on our trip sheets.
6:14
But for one, they haven't been updated and two, it's based on
6:21
mail volume which is what our evaluations are supposed to be
6:24
based off of and all this other stuff.
6:27
So while I'm on the phone with my ADR she goes just go ahead
6:30
and file a grievance. So I did.
6:33
And so we'll wait and see what happens when my ADR fights that,
6:36
because unfortunately, we currently do not have a steward
6:39
in our office. So we'll see what happens with
6:42
that and keep you guys updated. Everybody that listens to this
6:46
should already know why not, but if not, they need to go back and
6:50
listen to old episodes of the podcast.
6:52
And I if you haven't listened to the old episodes, why haven't
6:55
you yet? So how was your week, Bill?
7:00
Oh. Tuesday was fun.
7:04
They had open routes on Saturday, so mail was left over
7:07
for me for Tuesday. Day after holiday.
7:12
We have not gotten the talk about the using red markers to
7:16
blank out the bar codes and when they do, we're going to turn
7:20
around and say, I'm sorry, we're not compensated for that under
7:23
the current Mail mini mail survey.
7:25
It's not contractually required for us to do that.
7:29
And they and if they press it and they'll pull the Josh and
7:32
we'll say fine and the shift duties will be sitting there for
7:35
45 minutes to an hour every damn day.
7:38
So, you know this this stuff they make up is just appalling.
7:43
You know, I, like I, said I I had to call out Friday because
7:47
it was too dangerous on the roads here.
7:49
Everything was a skating rink. Three of the carriers passed
7:54
four cars on a flat stretch approaching the post office,
7:59
where two cars and a service truck were in the ditch for for
8:07
some unknown reason why they lost control on a flat, straight
8:11
piece of Rd. have I have no idea.
8:13
But that was just, you know, an idea of how bad it was.
8:16
And then the carriers got in and the parking lots not plowed.
8:20
It's not salted nothing. City carriers are pushing their
8:24
conveyances, you know, to their trucks in the middle of this big
8:27
ass parking lot through all this snow and ice.
8:30
And you know, I'm surprised none of them got hurt.
8:33
But remember, you got to get those scans done.
8:36
You have to do it outside of the electronic fence surrounding the
8:39
post office, and your safety is important, except for nobody
8:44
believes this last one. So anyway, I I was off Thursday
8:49
just just for a note that I've got a calcium deposit in my
8:53
abdomen that's blocking blood flow to my right leg.
8:57
So somewhere the next two to three weeks I'm going to go in
9:01
for a router, a rotor rooter for cleaning of that vein, and it'll
9:05
put a stent in there too. But the the doctor's trying to
9:10
figure out how I got a calcium deposit there.
9:13
I said I don't know, I just live in this body.
9:17
I I don't maintain it, you know, other than that I mean you know
9:21
throwing trying to throw two shadow people onto routes,
9:25
deliver parcels egregious. But of course our former ADR who
9:29
also was in the office that day didn't say a word about it
9:33
because he's he's still playing the game with management.
9:37
You know, this is something we've heard before about
9:41
preferential treatment towards certain people and it's live and
9:46
well in Westchester, Pennsylvania.
9:48
Other than that, you know, I had yesterday off and I've been
9:52
watching some good football Go Lions and Kristen, how was your
9:59
week? Well, I'm going to skip over to
10:01
me and I'm going to go to Nick next.
10:03
Though. Nick, how was your week?
10:06
Oh, like everyone else battling the cold and call insurance and
10:12
mismanagement as always. Day after a holiday, of course,
10:16
you know there's going to be call in, especially when there's
10:18
0° temperatures of snow on the ground.
10:21
And doing my part to help get some of this mail out on other
10:25
routes even though I'm not obligated to.
10:28
I did it by choice, but just did the best we could in the
10:33
circumstances. Thankfully, the weather's taking
10:35
a change and it's just going to be cold and rainy now instead of
10:39
just, you know, cold and snowy. But yeah, it wasn't too bad of a
10:43
week. The only bummer that we really
10:47
had, we had these Yellow Pages come in for all the routes, just
10:52
1012 Gaylords, just full. Every route got Yellow Pages.
10:58
So we had to deliver those, You know, they were, they had to be
11:00
delivered within a week and so, you know, brave the weather and
11:04
the cold. And.
11:06
The Yellow Pages worked nicely for some insulation inside the
11:09
LLV. So.
11:13
Especially if you use a match. Yeah, even.
11:16
Better. Thankfully they weren't the old
11:19
school fit kind that you remember from when we were a
11:21
kid. They were the little thinner
11:22
ones, about the half the size of AU Line, so they weren't too
11:26
bad, but they were still house to house.
11:27
So got all those out, worked a lot of extra overtime, Had a
11:32
long, had a long, long week. But.
11:35
Worked my J day again this past Saturday.
11:39
I don't know when I'll actually have my J day off, but it was
11:43
July, I believe was the last one.
11:46
Other than that, watched a lot of football, played a little
11:49
poker last night and ready for a new week.
11:54
Kristen, how about you? Now I get to chime in.
11:58
I It was a cold week, that's for sure.
12:01
Josh shared us the link to that great, awesome sale for that
12:06
heated vest. Mine won't be until Thursday,
12:09
but I did get my heated socks yesterday and they can't.
12:13
Tell them why it's going to take so long for yours to come in.
12:18
So I and it came USPS and not our Amazon contractor.
12:23
So I went over to the city carry and I said I got a couple
12:25
packages I want today, please. He's like, oh, so you want me to
12:30
toss them into the water behind your house?
12:32
I said no, I want you to deliver them to me here please.
12:36
So I will tell you the heated socks.
12:38
So that was a game changer yesterday.
12:40
I was happy, yeah. The holiday, the weather, as you
12:45
know, from last week, you know, Saturday I was able to get maybe
12:48
a dozen packages delivered. I got at 5:30.
12:53
I got notified that I needed to stop delivering the mail and
12:57
just deliver the packages so I could be back in by 7.
13:01
And I was just starting the back half of my route at Fiveish.
13:05
So yeah, I got back at Seven O 2 and by the time I cased up my
13:10
tray and a half of pull, no, I only had a tray of pull down
13:14
left in a tray and a half of DPS.
13:16
So I got the pull down case back up and by the time I got done
13:20
with all that I've worked 12.72 hours on Tuesday, Wednesday I
13:25
got it all caught up a little over 10 hour day.
13:28
Got all the mail caught up only to come back to the office with
13:32
an every door direct for Thursday.
13:34
That was my week. But you're getting bad in 1000
13:37
this week, I'm telling you. But actually it wasn't bad.
13:40
The mail was light, packages were kind of light.
13:43
And so I was, I think I was back by 3:30.
13:46
I was under evaluation Thursday and Friday, no issues there.
13:51
Yesterday I was, I was pretty close to right, just just below
13:56
right right close to evaluation yesterday on my K day.
13:59
But it was our flats that we hadn't had the for the last few
14:03
days found their way to us for Saturday so.
14:06
I I want to get the scanner message where it says the, you
14:09
know, stop delivering the mail and just deliver parcels because
14:13
when I get that I'm going to take a picture of it and send it
14:16
to my local Congress person. Oh, it wasn't a scanner message.
14:19
It was actually a text message on my cell phone.
14:22
Oh yeah, better. That I ignored.
14:25
I didn't respond to her, I should say, because it went off
14:28
on my watch. So I just looked at my watch,
14:29
went oh OK and continue to finish delivering the tria DPSI
14:34
was working out of at the time. Anyway, so.
14:36
I'd still send it to your local congressperson.
14:38
Say, look, we're no longer a a mail service, we're a parcel
14:42
delivery company. I know, got to get that Amazon
14:45
delivered, let me tell you. And I had and there was a
14:49
customer that called and complained before I even got
14:51
back to the office, but she delivered a package.
14:53
But where's my mail? I'm expecting a check.
14:56
Blah, blah, blah, and post for the supervisor played out, told
15:00
the customer she's doing as she was instructed so she could be
15:04
back by the time that she's supposed to be back and she
15:07
goes, but I'll be more than happy to wait for you if you
15:10
want to come pick it up after she gets back that.
15:12
Must be that new management school, yeah?
15:15
Yeah, yeah, that supervisor told him.
15:17
I'm like, wow, Well, you know, you know why?
15:20
They're they're hardcore on the parcels, right?
15:24
Because it keeps their poom and impoo off their backs because
15:29
that is is tracked by everything the male's not.
15:32
That's why they're pushing on that is because they just don't
15:35
want to get their butt chewed by their their management.
15:38
That's a horrible way to live in fear of your job, because the
15:41
asshole above you is threatening you all the time.
15:44
There really is. There's that I agree.
15:47
So, but I do have a way to live. I do have a shadow day again on
15:54
Wednesday, so we'll see how this one works out and hopefully
15:58
doesn't get an offer for clerk position the next day like the
16:01
last one. No, you know, Other than that my
16:05
week wasn't too bad, it was just a couple long days there because
16:09
of the weather and whatnot and I got it all taken care of.
16:13
And tomorrow starts the next six day stretch after the next six
16:20
days. On the 7th day, which January
16:24
27th starts SAC, the South Atlantic Conference.
16:29
This is the first of the area conferences.
16:32
There's five of them. SAC is the very first one,
16:35
January 27th through the 29th, which is this coming Saturday
16:39
through Monday. And these are the regional
16:43
conferences for the National World Letter Carriers
16:46
Association. This is where you can get
16:48
information, meet with fellow carriers, learn about what's
16:53
going on. Josh, you're in the SAC area,
16:55
right? I am.
16:57
Have you been to a SAC conference?
17:00
I have not. OK.
17:03
It's not for a lack of wanting to, It's more of a not having
17:09
the time or the affordance to be able to go.
17:16
And it's just, you know, time of year and trying to get things
17:24
like bills back in order from the previous year and
17:26
everything. And then they've outgrown the
17:29
hotel there in years ago. So until next year, after next
17:36
year when they're no longer allocated by contract and there
17:40
will be elsewhere, I figured it's not worth being in such
17:45
closed quarters, if that makes sense.
17:49
For the southern S Atlantic region of it, which includes
17:53
what states. Let's say North Carolina down to
17:57
Florida, including Tennessee and I think.
18:03
It's Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina,
18:07
Tennessee, Mississippi, Kentucky and Alabama.
18:10
When you go to these conferences, because I have the
18:14
booklet pulled up on what's going on, there's going to be a
18:17
lot of talk. And one of the big things that
18:21
they're going to have there is they're going to actually have
18:24
three people there from postal operations.
18:29
There's going to be the Vice President of Retail and Delivery
18:32
operations, the manager of operations integration and the
18:37
representative from the southern area.
18:40
So those are three people that are going to step up there and
18:42
talk about the post office, what the rural craft does for them
18:46
and show you all the data they can from the city carrier side.
18:50
They won't show you the rural carrier data.
18:51
They'll show you show you the city carrier data.
18:53
Then you'll have remarks from the NRLCA officers and then
18:58
introduction of AQ and a panel where you can actually ask
19:01
questions. And then an installation of SAC
19:05
officers for the next SAC conference.
19:08
They also will have seminars like OWCP, Constitution and
19:14
Resolutions, labor, things like that.
19:18
Retirement is actually not on here in the list.
19:22
Oh, oh, it's. Always on until, oh, I found it.
19:26
It's on the on the last page. It's Sunday afternoon seminars,
19:30
the furs retirement and they also have a health benefits
19:33
seminar just before it, just checking for other things that
19:37
might be of interest. But there's all kinds of things
19:40
that you can go through at these conferences to give you
19:42
information not only about doing your job, but what your future
19:46
could have with it as well. So that's what SAC.
19:49
SAC is showing in their their current program.
19:53
If you're interested, it is January 27th through 29th in
19:56
Atlanta, GA if you're going, if you haven't registered, I think
20:00
registration is closed already. If I'm not mistaken, you're also
20:04
going to meet with. Fellow rural carriers Now, Bill,
20:08
you had said earlier today you wanted to talk about this and
20:11
what goes on at these conferences.
20:12
So why don't you elaborate a little bit on that?
20:15
Well, everything I've gathered about SAC, SAC is more of a
20:20
informational and educational type conference.
20:23
There's not the typical National Convention or even some of the
20:29
regional conventions. Glad handing and politicking.
20:33
It's still an opportunity for the current national board
20:40
members to, you know, make their presence known and you know more
20:45
or less politic, you know, for their positions.
20:49
So it's a unfair advantage for them because of the fact that
20:53
they're paid to travel to these things and since they are full
20:56
time employees, they don't have to worry about getting the time
20:58
off. The the biggest thing about this
21:04
convention in this conference is the fact that that this is one
21:08
of those let's say preparatory type conferences in regards to
21:14
people who are examining the retirement options as they're
21:17
coming up this year. The rest of it is really how how
21:25
do I put this delicately? It's filler, OK, That's all it
21:29
is. It's filler for them to have
21:31
this conference and and and meet the requirements of their
21:34
constitution in regards to this act.
21:37
There's not much there in regards to the social aspects
21:43
unless you're meeting with people that you know that are of
21:47
like mind and that's one of the reasons why I said you know
21:51
what, there there's there's not the opportunity that I I would
21:55
like to have in regards to attending.
21:58
So with that in mind I I decided with everything going on that I
22:03
would bypass this and and and hit the major ones where there
22:07
is the opportunity to to meet the people and that would be
22:11
SWAC mid states even western states, the Eastern states it's
22:19
up in New Hampshire at the worst time of the year and and and.
22:23
Into that island. It's in Rhode Island, OK, Rhode
22:26
Island, even worse because you know if you if you're blinking,
22:29
you drive right through the state.
22:31
And you know, after attending several of those, it it's almost
22:37
on par with SAC except for having one banquet.
22:41
And James that. And and that really doesn't draw
22:44
the people that you know the other conference do and that's
22:48
what I'm I'm more interested in is getting more into the masses
22:52
than you know just a little regional seminar type
22:55
conference. Was it James?
22:56
SAC does not have a registration.
22:59
They do have the IT was the cut off date for the Womb block
23:04
reservations, so pretty much. SAC SAC does on site
23:08
registration when you get there. Yeah, yeah, they do an SRO type
23:13
situation. Yep.
23:14
And then in March is the Eastern states.
23:18
In Rhode Island, which spell just mentioned, you skip, you
23:21
skip Southwest. That's February 16th through the
23:24
19th. Well, he was just talking about
23:26
going to SWAC, Yeah. Yeah.
23:28
So that's the 16th through the 19th, is that one in Edmond, OK.
23:32
And and that's important to to attend because of the the
23:35
attendance and the the number of carriers those states represent.
23:41
You got to remember, 1% of our craft dictates what over 100,000
23:48
of us are going to live by in regards to their decisions,
23:52
electing people to the national board.
23:55
The delegates are less than 1% of our craft and they're going
23:59
to be representing you, the carrier who's working, not
24:05
discounting the retirees that attend in regards to what your
24:09
future is. And our future has to change
24:13
because folks, we're, we're accessible right now and I don't
24:19
foresee it getting any better under the current
24:22
administration. Yeah, and with that voting for
24:25
delegates. Only 10% of the voting craft
24:30
actually votes for delegates in the last National Convention,
24:35
10%. So think about that when you
24:38
want to look at your ballots when they come to you in the
24:41
mail. Because the thing about it is,
24:47
the only way you can make change with this stuff is to attend
24:52
events, learn everything you can be a delegate, vote for
24:57
delegates and be involved. Doesn't matter if it's at Sack,
25:01
Swack, Eastern, Western, Mid States.
25:04
It doesn't matter if you go to your boosters, you go to your
25:07
local meetings, your county meetings, you know those, the
25:11
state meetings, the state convention, get involved because
25:16
the only way to make this craft better is for everybody to be
25:20
involved. Absolutely.
25:22
So, yeah, February is SWAC in Edmond.
25:26
OK. I know registration has closed
25:28
on that. As of I think it was January 2nd
25:31
or 4th. It was beginning of the month.
25:34
Yep. Yep.
25:35
March is Eastern and Rhode Island.
25:39
Yeah, I they have their schedule of events already posted.
25:42
Yes, they do. And a couple of the big ones of
25:44
course is retirement seminar. There is an executive
25:49
committeeman seminar, but the same time as the first
25:53
retirement seminar, so you have to pick one or the other.
25:57
There is an OWCP present presentation Labor Relations
26:03
Seminar with are Shirley Baffa and Bridget Boziak and one of
26:08
the legal counsel members of the NRLCAA Legislative update.
26:14
Of course Q&A things like that. And then April is Western, yes
26:23
in Cripple Creek. In Cripple Creek Co.
26:26
I was going to say Ohio Cripple Creek Colorado.
26:30
Blasphemy. So the it's funny it says
26:35
Cripple Creek Colorado for that location it's it's a Shimoy
26:42
Casino hotel. I don't.
26:44
I probably slaughtered the name but they don't have an agenda
26:48
yet. April 3rd through 5th or no,
26:50
that's March 5th. What is it?
26:52
Yeah, April 3rd through 5th for that and then 3rd to the 5th is
26:58
mid States and that is going to be hosted this year in Muskegon,
27:02
MI. So if you want to meet most,
27:05
most of the presenters here, that's the best place to do it.
27:09
I think Bill's going to try and come out to that one.
27:12
It'd be nice to see him again before international.
27:15
Myself and James will be there. In fact, that's when I met I How
27:18
I Met. James was actually at a mid
27:20
state convention. Yeah.
27:22
Council Bluffs, IA. Council Bluffs.
27:25
Yeah, that was I have been. I've been to Cleveland, OH,
27:31
Green Bay, WI Council Bluffs. IA Wichita, KS.
27:37
And this will be #5 for me back in my home state, #3 for me.
27:43
Yeah, registration is going on right now for that.
27:47
If you are in the, if you're part of Michigan and you want to
27:53
go to the mid states, you can go on to the MIRLCA website and
27:57
actually register online for that.
28:00
Otherwise I know the registration forms and what not
28:02
are on the NRLCA website for all of the area conferences.
28:08
They have their own tab now. So for those that'll are still
28:12
open for registration, there is a banquet and yeah and then
28:18
usually mid states wraps up the area conferences and then we
28:22
move into state convention season following those.
28:27
And we talk about this because this is important for you to see
28:31
how your union attendees, the people that actually attend
28:35
things, think, talk, want to see how this union goes, things like
28:41
that. You can have conversations with
28:43
people about that stuff and breaks and after the events,
28:46
things like that. There's so much you could learn
28:50
outside of just the conferences alone to give you an idea of of
28:55
how it could be when it comes time for national delegates.
29:00
Yeah, I mean mitts. I like the area conferences.
29:03
I haven't been able to get to any of the other ones.
29:06
Maybe eventually I will. It's not in the cards this year
29:10
for me unfortunately, as much as I wanted to, I probably won't be
29:14
able to unless I don't know, more than likely won't be able
29:17
to. I I like it because it is very
29:19
informational. It it's, you know the the
29:22
business portion you don't really have if you don't want to
29:25
stay for it really. I mean it's not something you
29:30
have to stay for. It just pretty much goes for the
29:35
board for the following year and whatnot and the expenses and all
29:39
that stuff. But other than that information
29:42
wise, it is a way to get a chance to approach your national
29:47
board and ask them questions in person outside of a National
29:52
Convention. And yeah, I think it is
29:56
definitely one that if you can make an area conference, please
29:59
go. And you don't have to go to your
30:02
area conference if if the dates and times work out better for
30:07
another one. And you can go if you're in one
30:10
of those states that's closer maybe to where another one's
30:14
being held, even though you're part of a different area, you
30:17
can register and go to a different area.
30:19
You don't have to be stuck with just going to your area
30:23
conference. As you know, as Bill is saying,
30:25
he was looking at other ones to go to as well, to reach out and
30:28
talk to people and whatnot. That, and as you were saying, is
30:31
being able to get in, you know, one-on-one time with the
30:35
national board at these conferences, you probably have a
30:39
better chance of that than at the National Convention because
30:43
at the National Convention they're running around with
30:48
duties and things that they have to attend to pretty much start
30:53
to finish. All that, you know, That's the
30:55
difference of having 2 to 300 attendees as opposed to having
31:00
roughly close to 2000 attendees, right.
31:03
And it's a little bit more intimate setting when it comes
31:07
to the number of people that are there and you can turn around
31:10
and ask them the tough questions you want answer.
31:14
Most likely you'll come back with, we'll get back to you or
31:17
we'll have to look into that. Yeah, but you can ask the tough
31:21
questions. Oh, and and like I try to
31:24
explain to people in my office, you know, if you don't take 10
31:28
minutes a day to invest into researching your six O 3, the
31:33
Elm, you know, the contract. This is your job, This is your
31:38
career. This this is your livelihood
31:41
that you know you're participating in.
31:44
And the more you know, the more management hates it.
31:49
I mean, you know, they come to our office and tell us we have
31:53
to use a red marker to block out the bar codes.
31:57
Well, you got to you got to believe me.
32:00
I'm going to start a shit fit about that.
32:03
In regards to compensation, the time to do it this that if you
32:08
don't stand up for yourselves and the only way you can is with
32:12
knowledge. So invest 10 minutes a day,
32:15
folks. I know you have kids, you have
32:17
the soccer, you have, you know, ballet, you have Boy Scouts,
32:21
Girl Scouts, brownies, whatever, 10 minutes a day.
32:26
That's all you have to do to invest in your future and to be
32:30
able to protect yourselves. Same thing with these
32:34
conventions and conferences. If you have the opportunity to
32:39
participate, attend them. Find out what you need to know
32:42
or what you want to know. Fool the people to decide and
32:45
and and put them up against the wall and say why is this
32:49
happening? Why are why are management
32:52
allowed to belittle us and threaten us and get away with
32:55
it? But if they're doing that, you
32:57
better have the grievances. Or the EE OS or the, you know,
33:02
National Labor Relations Board forms filled out and filed
33:06
before you ask the question. Because the question will come
33:09
back as well. What have you done?
33:11
And if you don't do anything, they can't act on it.
33:15
Exactly. Nick, have you ever thought
33:17
about coming up for mid States? I have.
33:20
Actually, I wouldn't be able to do it this year.
33:23
I got a prior commitment. I.
33:27
Do a lot of spare time and Little League baseball as an
33:30
umpire and with my local area, but I'll be doing some regional
33:36
stuff at that time this year. But yes, I I'm going to look to
33:39
do next year's. Awesome.
33:43
Trying to think next year's I think will probably be back in
33:46
Ohio. It tends to go alphabetically.
33:50
So I'm if I'm thinking right, I think it will probably be back
33:53
in Ohio next year or Nebraska or North Dakota.
33:58
Oh wait, yeah, I forgot about that.
34:00
So it'll probably be in either the Dakotas or Nebraska next
34:04
year. I'd have to double check.
34:05
I don't have it right in front of me, but yeah, it's
34:09
definitely, I don't like I said with mid states it kind of it
34:11
goes around by the states in alphabetical order for the most
34:15
part. So you know it travels.
34:19
It's kind of nice that I only have a four hour drive to it
34:22
this year rather than. Well, where's Muskegon compared
34:25
to Grand Rapids? 45 minutes W it's right on the
34:29
lake MI all. Right.
34:32
Yeah, not too far from Grand Rapids.
34:34
So I can fly in and catch a Uber over or rent a car, probably
34:40
rent. A car or just get pick or just
34:42
get pick up by one of us? Yeah, yeah, too.
34:45
I was going to say. Let us know when you're coming
34:47
in and we'll just grab you and go OOP.
34:50
Baby. Woo Hoo, grab and go.
34:56
Sounds like you're going to snatch me, no?
34:59
I already have my I already have my room reserved so I'm not
35:01
worried about that. I got to send my paperwork in
35:04
for my state secretary requested but other than that I'm I'm all
35:08
set for mid States and I know some states.
35:12
Oh that's right. Next year's is Illinois or
35:14
Indiana they're joining together because they got skipped during
35:18
the pandemic. Thank you for that.
35:21
Yeah I remember that one now that Oh yeah the big fight that
35:26
happened at last mid states over that.
35:29
Yeah the one before that. The one that happened in
35:31
council. The one, the one in Council
35:33
Bluffs, yeah, that was that was crazy to hear them fighting over
35:36
the fact that Indiana and Illinois wanted to basically
35:41
quote UN quote jumped the line as some of them were saying but
35:44
they were skipped. So yeah because because of
35:48
because of COVID they got skipped over.
35:50
So they're going to join forces and host 2025 and and that just
35:56
gives you the mindset of some of these people.
35:58
It's we've always done it this way.
36:00
If they got skipped, Oh well too bad they don't get it.
36:03
We're going to keep following the same way we've been doing it
36:06
for the last 30 plus years. No, that's actually that's kind
36:10
of though. You kind of reminded me of what
36:12
I was thinking about that I totally forgot about what I
36:15
wanted to talk about. And it's not from where I wanted
36:20
to go with this, but I'm going to let Bill say what he wanted
36:23
to say first before I do that. Well, I was going to say was the
36:27
follow up on James is that, yeah, keep following the same
36:30
path you've been doing for 30 years because it's worked out so
36:32
well for us. And I see the comment about, I
36:35
see the comment about the wrecks.
36:36
And it's like, my God, put me in office because first thing we
36:40
got to do is put the brakes on wrecks.
36:42
It's it's, it's ruined so many people's lives, even if they are
36:47
on the bell curve. Don, yeah, you don't live on the
36:50
bell curve. 66% of our carriers lost money, period.
36:56
We haven't. We haven't had it for so good
36:59
for too long. We've been fighting every single
37:02
day. In fact, I remember listening to
37:05
From 8 arbitration a couple weeks ago.
37:08
He was reading word for word what's going on now in the City
37:13
side and the same stuff happening to us.
37:17
He was reading it from articles from the 1970s, the same exact
37:23
words management was using, The same exact words the unions are
37:26
using were written in in the 1970s.
37:30
So think about how long ago that was to today.
37:34
And they're still talking the exact same way, doing the same
37:38
exact things and expecting different results.
37:42
What do they call it when you do the same exact thing but expect
37:46
different results? Isn't that the definition of
37:48
insanity? Yep.
37:51
Or union leadership. Oh, OK.
37:54
So what I what I wanted to touch on real quick now that now that
37:57
I was triggered and remembered what I wanted to talk about.
38:01
Thank you, James. Oh, she's triggered.
38:07
It was a memory trigger not a trigger trigger.
38:09
So what I wanted to mention and it especially kind of runs down
38:15
to the three of us that have said that we're going to step up
38:17
and run for national office for the whole entire history of
38:24
people running for office. There's that unspoken rule of
38:28
how you have to follow this this chain to make it up to the top.
38:35
And the reason why I say it's an unspoken, unwritten rule,
38:38
because in our national constitution it flat out says
38:42
that you just have to be a member in good standing for
38:46
three years to run for national board and you cannot be retiree
38:50
and elected to the board. There's two different things
38:53
there. But however, the way of thinking
38:56
that has happened throughout the decades is that you need to move
39:04
your way up through the steward system and then go up to start
39:08
as executive committeeman and send your four at least a four
39:12
year term, if not more than one four year term before you run
39:16
for another office and then move your way all the way up.
39:21
How well has that worked out for us people?
39:25
Not well at. All I I you know I.
39:28
Hey, hey, hey. Don't throw the baby out with
39:31
the bathwater. That's all I'm saying.
39:34
There are, there are good people in the system.
39:39
There are good people in the system, great people in the
39:42
system and and, and and I'm not, I'm not doubting on them at all.
39:49
I mean there are some really good people.
39:51
We have some decent, good national board position, people
39:55
that hold positions on the national board, but.
40:01
Name 3. I could probably name we can.
40:04
We're not going to. We're not going to call them out
40:06
on here for right now, no, I'm not going to.
40:08
I'm not going to name names, but I'm just.
40:12
Damn, we'll let. Them, we'll let them assume who
40:16
they are because we know that they're listening to this
40:19
podcast every single time we post an episode.
40:23
So yes, the process seems to remove people from the ground
40:26
level for too long. That's why we are where we are
40:29
today. And I have to agree with that,
40:32
when you have been in a position as a full time union employee
40:37
and have not carried a row and you're on five 10/15/20 plus
40:43
years of not having carried a route, when you have those of
40:47
us. And I see how much this job has
40:49
changed in the nine years that I've been with the post office.
40:52
But if you haven't carried a route, you haven't been in an
40:55
office carrying a route, you don't see those first hand.
40:59
You can't relate. Yes, you may hear about it from
41:02
family members, spouses, friends, whatever, but that's
41:06
not hearing about it is not the same as experiencing it first
41:10
hand. And I And it's at that point now
41:14
where time is some of these bigger seats should be filled by
41:19
people that have had their boots on the ground and have ran that
41:23
route prior to leaving to drive to National Convention.
41:27
Because that tends to be one of the most common questions is
41:31
when was the last time that you ran your mail route?
41:34
And I remember standing up and saying, and this was on what,
41:37
Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday at caucus.
41:41
I remember saying, yeah, I ran my route on Saturday, got home,
41:45
packed a car and drove 27 hours to Florida, or even just went
41:51
out and seen how the decisions you're making as a national
41:55
board member are affecting normal carriers.
41:58
Not just the people you know who are going to sugarcoat it for
42:03
you, but every craft member out there.
42:06
Pick any craft member out there that you don't know, go observe
42:11
them for a day, see how your decisions are affecting them.
42:14
Because what's going on down here needs to be known at the
42:18
national level. And if you're not coming down to
42:21
this level to see what's going on, you're ignorant of the
42:25
facts. I mean, and I've said this
42:27
before in previous podcast, when you're sitting in a National
42:31
Convention and you have carriers at the microphone in tears
42:36
begging for some sort of help because of what is going on in
42:41
their office, why do we have why, why?
42:45
Why does that have to happen at all?
42:48
Why do they have to be on the floor in front of 2000 people in
42:51
tears? Because of how they're getting
42:54
treated by their managers and they've reached out to everybody
42:57
possible. And now here they are on the
42:59
floor begging for mercy, literally because of what's
43:04
going on in their offices. Am I right, Bill?
43:07
That that Lady just about pulled at my heartstrings and and I'll
43:14
bet you nothing got done or resolved to her satisfaction.
43:18
Not not that they didn't try, but they're not concerned with
43:22
us, that they're concerned with getting their retirement.
43:25
That that's all the national board is concerned about getting
43:28
their retirement. I said it and you and don't edit
43:32
that. You know, for me and and I, I
43:38
said this before, if I was will be.
43:40
If I was, if the big if, if I was to be elected to national
43:44
board it. It's not a way to retirement for
43:48
me. I wouldn't want to be up there
43:50
until I retired. I want to retire.
43:52
I want to retire from my route. I don't want to retire from a
43:56
board position out of touch with what's going on in the real
43:59
world. Yeah, this is a choice we're
44:01
making that is going to be a sacrifice for all of us because
44:06
not only do we have to give up our routes to be a national
44:11
officer, which at least for some of us, maybe all of us, I can't
44:19
speak for everybody, but I'm going to miss my customers.
44:22
I love my customers. They take good care of me out
44:26
there, you know and I have to turn around and let that be run
44:32
by my sub and be a national board officer.
44:37
And this doesn't benefit my sub either because even though he
44:41
gets the new designation as a hold down on that route, he
44:46
still doesn't get the retirement benefits and things like that
44:50
that the people who have been running these board members
44:53
routes for 17 plus years have not gotten either.
44:59
Now granted, I put the resolution in to get them to
45:01
career status so they can earn their retirement, but whether we
45:07
get that from our current national board during contract
45:09
negotiations or not is up to question.
45:12
So when this happens, when people get elected to the
45:16
national board, you're not only affecting yourself and your
45:20
family, the people you love and care about, you're also
45:24
affecting the people in your office.
45:27
You're affecting the Subs in your office and everybody else
45:32
involved in that, including your union stewards that are involved
45:36
there, they have to deal with fighting for the things in that
45:39
office. Everybody's involved in that.
45:42
Even even your management, especially if you're in offices
45:44
that are short handed because now they're another person
45:47
short, they can't actually put a new person on that route to
45:50
cover it. So it's a big sacrifice for
45:54
somebody to take this step it, but it takes a lot of passion to
45:57
get there and you have three people right here right now that
46:01
have that passion to help this craft so much with all that risk
46:06
involved. And and you're right, this the
46:08
customer. You know, even with just my drop
46:12
day I get phone calls and texts from my customers because they
46:16
know I'm not on there and and it it really hurts the shit out of
46:20
me that the the Subs don't pay attention or don't care.
46:25
I have APTF that does my route every once in a while and the
46:31
guy's done 3 hours under evaluation and then I'll come
46:35
back and pick up 80 to 100 pieces of mail that shouldn't be
46:39
in boxes. Wrong addresses wrong names
46:41
wrong. And God help us if there's box
46:44
holders because for some reason he's allowed to leave them and I
46:48
can discuss that off the air, but not on the air.
46:51
And yet other people or or reprimanded for leaving a pre
46:58
sorted standard box holder that they just got that morning, you
47:03
know that it goes back to the management's techniques, styles,
47:07
lack of education, whatever you want to call it.
47:10
Parity of treatment, favoritism, nepotism.
47:14
It it just galls me that everybody isn't treated equally.
47:18
We're not red, white, black, green, purple.
47:21
We're all blue and we all ought to be treated the same.
47:24
Yeah, I agree. I mean it's you know we're all
47:27
one and I it things need to change.
47:33
We we need a change. I mean it's coming in as a new
47:37
regular with you know 20 more years to go.
47:41
You know I want to make sure I still have what I was looking
47:45
forward to to having when I went regular to retire on.
47:49
You know, that's that's the one thing I it scares me to see you
47:54
what the potential could happen in the future if there isn't
47:58
change. It really does.
48:00
And and just so that our listeners know, I've, I've
48:04
stayed on longer because of my wife's being six years younger
48:07
than me. I can afford to go to these
48:09
conferences and conventions and and I can afford to retire and I
48:13
haven't because, hey, you know, I want to make a change and
48:18
it'll, it'll make a change in my life that to be a national
48:21
officer in regards to seeing my grandchildren, you know, in
48:26
regards to seeing my children. But I think that this craft is
48:29
worth it. And I think that the people who
48:33
go out there and put their blood, sweat and tears into
48:36
doing a good job every day and sometimes at the risk of their
48:40
own health and well-being, I think that's worth it.
48:44
Otherwise that you know. Otherwise I could have bailed
48:46
like Ronnie. But you know, I believe in in
48:50
this craft, and I want to make the Union worthy of the craft.
48:54
We want a leadership of the craft by the craft and for the
48:59
craft because that is what a union is supposed to be.
49:03
It is supposed to be about the people that are out there doing
49:06
the job that the union is protecting.
49:09
It's not about whether or not you get a new TV or a new bed
49:15
set that cost the NRLCAA lot of money.
49:19
It's about what's best for the craft itself.
49:24
Because at the end of the day, the only people that matter to
49:29
leadership right now are the people who pay the bills.
49:33
They don't use that money for arbitrations.
49:36
They don't use that money for anything else because there's
49:40
they try to say they're scared of arbitration.
49:42
No, they just want that money still in the coffer.
49:44
We have arbitration still sitting from 2018 that I know
49:48
about that still hasn't been resolved.
49:51
It's about time that stuff gets done because we can't afford to
49:55
wait. We need a resolution on the
49:57
carriers that have not been paid.
49:59
They need compensation for the late fees and late charges they
50:05
got on their bills, the overdraft fees on their
50:07
accounts, things like that. They need renumeration for that
50:11
and we can't wait 6-8, ten years for the step forward to finally
50:17
get resolved or finally go to arbitration.
50:21
We need our carriers taken care of first and foremost, not the
50:24
leadership, the carriers. I completely agree and like I
50:28
said, you know it. It is.
50:30
It's a huge sacrifice, especially for those you know us
50:33
that do have still have school aged children to even consider
50:37
running. And you know this will be my
50:40
second time running. I ran as an RCAI, you know I
50:44
took this past year and didn't run this year just because of
50:48
personal reasons. I have been thinking off and on
50:52
or if I was actually going to actually go through with it and
50:54
run with the personal stuff going on at home.
50:57
But I've been told mom if I was she she goes if the tables were
51:02
turned she goes I'd still go because you you need to go so
51:06
and you need to do this so yeah you know it's that's she knows
51:13
you know that this is my passion as well you know and like I said
51:17
and miss the people on our routes and I'm going to touch on
51:20
this before we wind it down for the night.
51:22
I kind of forgot about it in my week.
51:23
But it reminded me when we're talking about our love for our
51:26
customers and our routes. I have 5 hardships on my route
51:30
and my second hardship. I pulled up Wednesday it was
51:34
trash day and my my my poor woman.
51:38
And I'm like, I'm Paul Polish, sweet, sweet woman.
51:41
She's out there in front of her garage with a snow shovel,
51:44
holding on to her Walker with one hand, trying to flip the
51:47
snow and a little bit of ice so she can pull her car out and
51:52
take her garbage to the curb. I pull in, I see her, I grab her
51:56
mail, I walk it up to her. And I said, let me take care of
52:00
this foyer. And I got that snow and I
52:02
shoveled out. It took me less than 30 seconds
52:04
to get that cleared off, and I helped her with her garbage.
52:08
She's just a single woman, her and her dog.
52:12
So all her normal garbage, daily household stuff, she's put in
52:16
like grocery bags and she puts it out in the garage.
52:18
And I emptied out that trash can into the sanitation department's
52:23
garbage bag. And I said, I'll drop this at
52:25
the curb for you as I'm leaving your driveway.
52:28
And that totally made her day. And you know what?
52:30
It made mine too, because I was able to help her.
52:34
You know, my customers are that important to me.
52:37
I'm going to take that 30 seconds to shovel and drop a bag
52:40
of garbage at the curb for them because I know it's a struggle
52:44
for them to even be able to get out of the house to do that, you
52:47
know and that possibly you know and knowing that all that stuff
52:51
that you give up potentially for national board or a full time
52:57
union position in general, I mean that's a lot.
53:00
You know, we we do this job because we love what we do.
53:04
We love serving our customers. We love our routes and it it it
53:10
is a great consideration for us to say, OK, you know what, I
53:13
love this so much. I want it to be better for the
53:16
future. So I'm going to do this and try
53:20
and make it better for the future for everybody in the
53:23
craft. All right, I think we should.
53:25
What? Gives me about this whole thing
53:28
is that we go out and do, I'll say an exceptional job to the
53:34
weather, the conditions, the lack of support for management,
53:38
the, you know, the the belittle bit by management, the hostile
53:42
work environment. We go out and do an excellent
53:45
job every day. For the most part.
53:47
The only thing the national board has to do is to look out
53:52
for our interests, and they're not doing it.
53:55
That's the only thing they have to do.
53:58
So why aren't they accountable? And like Kristen said, I have a
54:02
customer on my route that I actually saved the life on when
54:07
I was on the fire department. And I am glad to say that after
54:12
six years she's still going strong and seeing her every her
54:18
every day is one of the highlights of my route.
54:21
I have another customer I helped pick up off the ground.
54:24
When they fell over and they couldn't get up, I helped them
54:27
up. Little things like that that we
54:30
do aside from our normal duties is why we do this job.
54:36
Helping others, whether it's our customers or our fellow craft
54:39
members is what we do. And that's all we're going to do
54:43
is help our fellow craft members by running for these positions.
54:46
So I think we're going to kind of wind it down tonight guys,
54:50
before we get even a little extra over passionate.
54:55
Get down and get down into that, that rabbit hole and approach
54:59
the Mastodon in the room. Yeah, let's not do that tonight.
55:06
Mastodon. Get it?
55:07
Get it? Uh, huh.
55:09
Uh, huh. I get it.
55:11
I get it. Everybody says elephant in the
55:14
room and A and a Mastodon is an elephant.
55:16
So this is an extinct elephant? Yes.
55:20
OK, I am going to start with Nick tonight.
55:24
You got anything final to say? I know you haven't gotten much
55:27
in on tonight with us, but there's anything else you want
55:30
to add or or say, go right ahead.
55:34
Dear. Yeah, no, I've done a lot of
55:35
head nodding tonight. Just I agree.
55:39
With 100% and if. A change is not made within our
55:43
union representation. We are going to crumble.
55:49
You can. You can do or say what you want
55:52
about decertification. I I understand how some people
55:56
feel about decertifying our union and how they want to move
55:59
that forward. I can go on and on about go down
56:03
that rabbit hole like you said, for hours.
56:06
But it's going to do nothing unless everyone is involved.
56:10
It won't. Nothing will be changed.
56:13
You're still going to have career politicians in these
56:16
union positions unless you do something about it, like Bill
56:19
and James and and Kristen are doing right now or attempting to
56:23
do. It starts with you.
56:27
The union is not an individual. It is a union.
56:30
It's everyone. Everyone has to be involved
56:34
everywhere. And you got to remember that
56:37
that take your time and like you said, 10 minutes a day is all it
56:41
takes. Open a piece of the contract,
56:43
read it over, realize that. And your, your station or your
56:48
district has been doing something wrong, completely
56:50
wrong the whole time that you've been there.
56:52
Maybe you've been there a year or two or 20 years and you just
56:57
found out that you've been doing something completely backwards
57:00
against the contract that you shouldn't be doing rectify it.
57:04
But other than that, everyone have a good week.
57:10
Hopefully it'll get warmer in your area and look forward to
57:15
next week. Thank you, Nick, Josh.
57:18
Well, I don't know how widespread the warm up is, but
57:22
it's still cold out there. I know like I said at the
57:25
beginning, by mid week it's supposed to be almost 70° here,
57:29
but it's supposed to rain from like Wednesday through Sunday.
57:33
So still, be careful out there. Be safe.
57:36
Be extra vigilant while you're out there on the route.
57:40
Watch where you're stepping. Look out for ice patches.
57:44
Don't get yourself overwhelmed. If you do, take a step back,
57:47
take a deep breath and step back in.
57:51
Have a good week and we'll catch you next time.
57:54
Go ahead, James. Yeah, the biggest take away from
57:59
all of this is participation, participation, participation.
58:04
We need as many carriers involved as possible, whether
58:08
it's sharing this podcast with everybody so they get motivated,
58:11
whether it's going over on to the web, the Facebook groups
58:15
that we have, whether it's the podcast Facebook group or it's
58:19
the Royal Mail, carriers, United, Shameless Plug.
58:23
There are breakdowns of the articles by our national
58:25
leadership where you can see what their opinions are and then
58:29
what my opinion is on what they said.
58:31
But mainly it's about getting this union to where the craft
58:38
needs it to be. It's not what the leadership
58:43
wants, it's what the craft means.
58:45
That is the most important aspect of this.
58:47
And no matter what, no matter how hard it gets out there, no
58:51
matter how bad things look, just remember we're all in this
58:56
together. Absolutely.
58:58
Thank you, guys. Bill.
59:00
I I have to say I'm hopeful because that's why I'm still in
59:06
this game, OK? And I'm not in it for myself.
59:11
I'm in it for everybody in this union.
59:15
I'll, I'll I'll correct that. I'm in it for everybody in the
59:17
craft because there are non union members that need
59:21
protection too. Because once they step on
59:25
people, whether they're union or not, they'll try to step on
59:29
everybody. Don't forget that once they
59:32
mistreat one person in your office, you're next.
59:36
That's why I say take 10 minutes a day, study the contract, the
59:40
Elm, the six O 3, anything you can get your hands on related to
59:44
your job. Because if you don't protect the
59:48
weakest in your office, it'll start to landslide.
59:54
Come down and envelope you. They won't stop with just the
59:58
weakest, they'll they'll force everybody.
1:00:01
The as 9 red marker for bar codes.
1:00:05
I would love to have that in my office.
1:00:07
Like I said, I would start a shitstorm so bad they thought
1:00:11
that they were in the middle of a cesspool when it blew up.
1:00:15
We're not going to tolerate it. We're not going to tolerate
1:00:18
fooms or emboos, whatever you call them.
1:00:21
Your district management coming up with these arcane rules that
1:00:25
they make up by the seat of their pants.
1:00:28
If they have something, pass for it in writing.
1:00:31
If they don't have anything, grieve it.
1:00:35
Like I say, file, file, file and then file and smile.
1:00:39
Because you need to defend yourself and others for
1:00:43
mistreatment, abuse, hostile work environment and
1:00:47
intimidation from a group of individuals AKA management, who
1:00:52
are acting out of fear for their own position.
1:00:55
So stand up for yourselves, stand up for others.
1:00:58
This union stronger at the smallest office to the largest
1:01:02
office we band. Together we can defeat
1:01:05
management and we can get a national board that will truly
1:01:10
represent the craft. All the craft.
1:01:14
As always. Yeah.
1:01:16
With the weather still being bad in certain parts of this
1:01:18
country, whether it be ice or wind or cold, please go out
1:01:24
there. Do your job as safely as
1:01:25
possible. Don't take any unnecessary risk.
1:01:30
Make sure you get home to your loved ones because you are the
1:01:32
most important delivery of the day.
1:01:35
God bless you. Thank you guys, each and
1:01:38
everyone of you. On that note, I they summed it
1:01:42
up. I really don't have anything
1:01:44
else to add on that other than stay safe this week.
1:01:48
You know, I know some parts are starting to warm up.
1:01:50
This Arctic air has kind of lifted a little bit.
1:01:55
I know we're supposed to get up into the mid to high 30s.
1:01:58
I don't have heat wave for me, but it's going to rain on top of
1:02:02
the snow and ice that we've already got.
1:02:04
So that makes it for some really hazardous conditions.
1:02:08
So everybody stay safe out there and we will see you next week.
1:02:26
I was tapping the button but it wasn't doing anything.