Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #272: Caryl Smith-Gilbert-University of Georgia

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#272: Caryl Smith-Gilbert-University of Georgia · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

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Track and field world Juvenal tuned in to our humble servant
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Mike Cunningham for another extraordinary message on Gil
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Athletics connections. Here we go back on the Guild
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Athletics Connections podcast. I'm going to hop right into this
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because you know today's guest and I have been going back and
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forth trying to get her on the podcast.
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She's just super busy now. To her credit, she said she's
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going to be in the podcast a long time ago and she kept her
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words. So I'm super grateful and we're
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going to learn so much. I'm I'm really pumped about this
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conversation. Help me welcome the head coach
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of the University of Georgia. I think you're supposed to say
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JoJo Bulldogs. I think is how your the proper
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pronunciation there. Help me welcome the wise, the
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wonderful Miss Carol Smith Gilbert.
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Carol, how are you today? Good.
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It's. Dogs.
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Dogs. Yeah, I, I learned, yeah, I was
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at Mississippi State. We were the Bulldogs.
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Georgia was the dogs. Yeah, I I learned that.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Both both mascots. Very cute, though, I have to
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say, I enjoyed Bully over at Mississippi State and I've
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enjoyed Ooga over there at Georgia as well.
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Carol, when we're recording this, you know, I don't know.
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And it's kind of unfair for track coaches.
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I don't know that there's a downtime for track coaches in
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general. Someone of your stature, meaning
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you know who you coach and what you coach and things like that.
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You really never get a downtime. You're in the middle of we just
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got done with NCAA S and US Olympic Trials, and now you're
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heading over to pairs, for crying out loud.
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I mean, have you had a chance to take a breath?
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Not really little time here or there, but not not what I need.
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Yeah, we do it to ourselves. Our our sport is really brutal
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and your body is your implement. So it's like time off is like a
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death, you know, death. So not for me per SE, but for an
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athlete. And if I take off then what are
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they going to do? Yeah, we, we talked about this a
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little bit before we hit record. You know, coaches were the first
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ones to tell our athletes how important rest is for their
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athletic development and everything else.
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And yet for coaches, we we a lot of times don't listen to our own
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advice. Right.
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Yeah. All right, hey, we've got some
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cool topics here today that I really wanted to pick your
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brain. You've got a lot of experience
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and, and really, you know, not only have you done it at the
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highest level, you've done it consistently at all levels.
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And so love to pick your brain. Know, you know, a lot of your
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history from, you know, haven't worked with you for for several
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years or one of the first topics.
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I wanted to kind of pick your brain here, Carol.
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You know, we talk a lot about mentors and what a mentor means
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to you as you're going through your coaching career, what early
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mentors that were maybe coaches of ours, how they maybe
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influence us to go into this profession.
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You had someone that I never got the pleasure of meeting.
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However, he and his style affected me coaching like he was
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a unofficial mentor of mine. If you will like the impact of
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how he coached and what he coached, can you talk to us,
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maybe give us an overview of the late, great Tony Wells, who was
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pretty instrumental in your career early on and probably
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still today? Oh yeah, he taught me everything
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I know just about as far as track and field XS and OS and
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how to formulate my thought process and and how I want to
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coach. And I've added to it and
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subtracted from it. Not very much subtraction
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though. I've added to it and sharpened
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it up the best I could. And that's what I promised him I
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would do. So to give us a little bit of
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history, catch us up because I'm afraid not a lot of people,
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especially today like our younger coaches, Noah, Tony
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Wells, there's not a lot of videos from him and you know him
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talking about his coaching style.
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Can you give us a little bit of just history of Tony, where you
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grew up? This was in the Denver area I
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believe, or at least in Colorado.
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Colorado I, I started, I started running with Tony when I was
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about 12. Oh wow, 13 now, maybe going into
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9th grade. I went out there early.
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He told my dad I wasn't good enough and we came out in May
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and and it was late and my dad was like, OK, so I went to
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another team and I end up running 11/8 at 12 years old.
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So Tony came back over and told my dad you need to bring her
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over there to me. And my dad said no, you didn't
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want her. I tried to bring her out there.
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You said it was too late. So it kind of took a year or two
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for my dad to get past that. And I told my dad I want to be
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out there with the Colorado Flyers over there.
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And they practice at the time at Manual High School.
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So he took me out there just before my freshman year.
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My, my, I had a friend who ended up, I'm actually a godmother to
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her daughter Dior Hall. But Yolanda Johnson was my, was
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a friend of mine. I would see her at the
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orthodontist and she would tell me about the team.
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And then I saw her at meets, 'cause she was on the Flyers, I
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was on another team and I told my dad I, I like her.
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I want to, We're going to be going to the same high school,
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George Washington. So I want to go and train with
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them. So that's how I got over with
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Tony. So I started later than most.
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A lot of the kids came out 5678 years old.
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Wow, oh wow, is that right? Yeah, he had age group, club,
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all girls. Wow.
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Yeah, On the team there wasn't very many boys.
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He started coaching boys later. Oh, is that right?
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OK. I, I remembered him from, you
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know, I, I was coaching high school in Chicago, so I, you
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know, kind of watched a little bit what University Illinois was
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doing. And there were at least one.
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I know. Tell me her name again.
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You just said it, Latimer. Alicia.
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Alicia And Dominique. No.
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Dominique Callaway. She liked Illinois, but she
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ended up going to Notre Dame in Michigan.
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Oh yes, Aspen Burkett. Yes, yeah, that's another.
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That's right. Yeah.
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Colinas and Cynthia Newsome, Well, Colinas Newsome went to
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Illinois, Cynthia was her. But we were all on the same
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club, was friends with Tony so Gary Winkler and Lauren Seagrave
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to come out to our practices and they would do like the days they
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would come. We would be miserable because we
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would be like experiments. So they would be trying to
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figure out how to do fly 30s and is it better to run in 20 or 25
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or 30 to get the maximum velocity.
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And we'd always have to go run again, go ahead and run again,
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Smitty, run another one. So they were trying to figure
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all this stuff out. The things that people are doing
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now, Tony was doing in the 80s, Yeah.
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And you, you and that group, you guys were, for lack of a better
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term, the Guinea pig. I mean this is like ground level
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stuff. Ground level.
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Wow, I did not know that come out.
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He had journals in Italian and East German and Russian, and
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then he would have the dictionary or the translation to
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try to decipher what they were doing.
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Wow. Honeywells was a genius.
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He was a he whatever he did. So he worked at the Rec Center,
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Skyland Recreation Center. It's now called Hiawatha Davis.
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But whatever he did, it was sorry.
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Whatever he did, he won. So when he coached football for
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you Little League, they would go to this thing called the cereal
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Bowl that was like Super Bowl. They win and he didn't.
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He'd use the same tactics and football as he did for us.
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So if they did a drill, 3 minutes rest, same as we would
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for 30s or something. So whatever he did, he was very
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good at tennis. People don't know that he was
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very good at tennis himself and he coached tennis, he coached
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football, he coached basketball and all of his Little League
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teams won everything and he was just very, very brilliant.
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I've made this statement before and I think I've used you as an
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example here. You know, there's coaching on
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the X's and O's side and then there's coaching of, of
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leadership. And I, and I've said it before,
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I think I could take you, Carol, as an example and you're going
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to love this example and put you in charge of a hockey team.
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Even though you may, I'm assuming you don't know, I, I
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don't know, maybe you're a big hockey.
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I'm not, I have know nothing about hockey.
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But even though you might not know hockey in regards to the
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plays and all this kind of stuff, your leadership would
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help that team to get better. Plus you would do things like
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hire the right assistants and all that kind of stuff.
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So when I hear a coach, it's one thing to be amazing as a track
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coach and you know, that's enough for me.
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Trust me, when I hear a coach, you know, football, OK, I've,
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I've heard that that's pretty common.
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When I hear tennis, I, I start hearing these other sports.
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What you, you said he's a genius.
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Was it genius of and, and obviously he, he knew training.
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So that's kind of a not a great question for me to say.
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Was he genius in training? But was it his leadership?
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What what was it that helped him in tennis, coaching tennis young
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kids, which that might be the hardest thing in the world to
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coach, in my opinion. What?
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What was it about him that separated him from other?
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Others weren't doing this. I think it was his scientific
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understanding that no one had at the time because we were doing
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speed and power stuff in the 80s and everyone would really talk
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bad about him and criticize us. And some of the college coaches
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were saying what we were doing wasn't effective and they
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couldn't, the kids couldn't run when they got to their schools
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or that's and they didn't know how to do it.
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So he was so advanced. Just, I think it was his
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understanding. And I'm not even sure where Tony
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went to college or if he graduated college.
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He was just like a genius in the neighborhood rec center, and he
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was way beyond his years, way beyond his time.
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People are just now starting to catch on, and some still have
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not to. The theory of whatever velocity
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I want to race is the velocity I'm going to train.
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And that's the real premise. And you know, just if I had to
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put it in one sentence, everything else is based around
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it. But it's highly scientific and
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you have to know it. I learned that, you know, I was
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early in my coaching career when I found out about Tony and I
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don't even remember how I did, but there were two things that I
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picked up from him that like for me, it just kind of made sense
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what you just said there. When I think now as a former
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Sprint coach, I think, oh, that just makes sense.
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If I want to run, if I want to be fast, I have to run fast.
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And I remember when I used to teach level ones for us ATF, I
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would use this example as a, as a math teacher, but it was all
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based on, on that principle of Tony's.
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I would say, if I was your algebra teacher Monday through
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Friday and then on Saturday, I'd give you a calculus test.
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How are you going to do? Probably not going to do very
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well. But what if I, what if I teach
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you calculus Monday through Friday and then on Saturday,
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say, you know what, just do algebra, you're going to kill
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it. You know, calculus.
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And so to me, for me at least, it worked.
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It was like, oh, if I run slow Monday through Friday and then
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on Saturday track meet, I say, hey, flip the switch and run
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fast. How does that makes I, I it
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doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
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I love that. The other thing that Tony did,
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and I think I saw either you did this, this is a long time ago,
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Carol, or you and him were together.
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I I don't remember that. It's like this grainy VHS tape
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in my head on this something that I it really struck with me.
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And and you correct me, I maybe my memory is wrong and this
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wasn't Tony, but I swear this was at least give him the
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attribution for this. He used to my understanding.
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I heard him say when he would talk about like frequency, like
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coming out of the blocks of a 60 or 100, he would have the kids,
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he would have you clap out or No, no, I think he did the beat.
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He'd make you say beep, beep, beep.
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Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the.
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You know, so that you would understand that it's a little
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bit slower in the first acceleration phase and then the
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frequency picks up. So that was him.
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OK, good. I feel.
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Yeah. We still do that here.
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Is that right? Oh, yeah.
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Oh, I. Love that.
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Yeah, that's just the the rhythm on how it's supposed to sound.
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If you don't know how it's supposed to sound, that's those
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are the things he just came up with, right?
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Who thinks of that? And he even taught me to be able
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to turn my back to tell if a person was doing something right
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or not by listening. I can hear it if they're
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applying the right amount of force or not, or the rhythm of
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the race or where it's supposed to be.
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But try to teach the kids the rhythm and how you're supposed
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to feel it. Because some people, you know,
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there's sensory, some people have to see it, some people, you
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know, visual, some people have to feel it.
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Some people can just go whatever, like football players,
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they catch on so quickly. But he, he, he was able to
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attack all areas to make a person understand what they were
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trying to do. And I remember one time he said,
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and if they can't get it that way, then you just keep doing it
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over and over and over at practice.
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So if they fail, they fail successfully.
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So it's the coaches job to make sure whatever the issue is,
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whatever it is, that those kids are successful.
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So I always have a, a premise of no matter what's going on, it's
14:00
on me, right? A kid could have home problems.
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OK, that's on me. I got to figure out how to get
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around that. Oh, they have too much weight on
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them. Well, we can't tell it's perfect
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because we can't talk about that.
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But what are you going to do about it?
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How are you going to work around that situation to make sure
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they're successful? They're not catching on to
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something. They have a mental glitch or
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lapse. That's on me.
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How do I fix it? Do I show them video to prove
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that they're incorrect? Do I race them in practice?
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Do I run them by themselves to practice?
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Whatever it is, he always taught me that it's on the coach.
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Don't blame the kid, blame the coach.
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How does the coach fix the problem?
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Sounds like instead of pointing fingers, your philosophy is
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pointing thumbs. Yes, I like that.
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How big? When you look at it now through
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the career that you, it's hard to say the career you've had,
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the career you are having. Luckily, we are nowhere near
15:00
retirement. Carol, I want you to retire one
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day, but we're not there yet. I know it's it looks better and
15:06
better every day when you look back at the career you're
15:10
having. How big of an influence was Tony
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into you getting into the coaching profession?
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He was the only reason I did it. Really.
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Yes, he made me. I've told this story a lot of
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times, but I was back home from UCLAI didn't do what I wanted to
15:30
do. I was pretty down about things
15:32
in my career. He calls me on the phone.
15:34
I was out helping him every day. I would come out to help him
15:38
with the club team, and I was working in the power plant,
15:41
public service, the electric company plant as a clerk with a
15:45
UCLA degree nonetheless, right? I was getting coffee.
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It was awful doing payroll, but it was just, I just lost.
15:54
And he said there's a job at your high school.
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I'm 24 years old. There's a head coaching job at
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your high school. You can give me a warning.
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You're going up there today and get the job.
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And I'm like, I don't want to coach.
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I'm just helping you. I like hanging around with you.
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No, Smitty, you're good at this. You going to be a coach?
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And I said, Nah. I have a degree in film from
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UCLA. I'm going to go back to LA and
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do like, lighting. I like cinematography, He says,
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OK, well, until that happens, you don't go to your high school
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where they already hired you and you didn't know it, and be head
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coach. And I say, Tony, I don't know
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how to coach. I just help you.
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I don't know, he says, and I said, I don't even like kids.
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And he says, yeah, but they like you, and I'm going to teach you
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everything I know. And if you don't go, don't come
16:46
back out here and help me 'cause you got to do something with
16:48
yourself. I was like, you all right, I'll
16:56
go. So I went and he said, first
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thing you're going to do, do you have a parents meeting?
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And I'm going to tell you what to say.
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And I say, all right, so I go to the high school.
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The AD says, now listen, this isn't going to be a big deal.
17:10
You're going to have about 15 kids.
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They're not that enthusiastic. Just I don't want a big fanfare.
17:17
We don't have much. It's a public school, kind of
17:21
different from when you were here.
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We won like 3 state championships.
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It's not, it's not what I'm looking for.
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I just need somebody to help me with these kids.
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OK, fine. I have the parents meeting.
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Tony tells me what to say. Long story short, I have 64 kids
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and I don't want them out there. I don't want to do this.
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You like the idea of 15? You're like, all right, cool.
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I'm. 15 I can live with that. 64 I would literally like tell them
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mean things like OK look, you're going to have to really fix your
17:54
technique because it's awful and they would bring a friend the
17:58
next day. Wow.
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And I just be like, why is she out here?
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Because you're amazing, Coach Carol and I, I just thought you
18:07
should she she, she's going to love this.
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We're having so much fun and I'm like, I'm not having that much
18:12
fun. So one day, though, I started,
18:17
you know, getting into a Tony's teaching me all this stuff.
18:20
I'm getting into it. I'm walking back to my car and I
18:24
say, oh man, I got to go back to my life 'cause I didn't do what
18:30
I wanted to do at UCLA. And I was watching all the
18:32
people that I could compete with on a high level do well.
18:36
And I was back home and it didn't sort of hit me, Wait a
18:40
minute, When I'm out here actually not being selfish and
18:46
helping other people, I feel different.
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Maybe this is what I should try to do.
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And that's when I started really trying to figure out if this is
19:05
what I wanted. And I remember one year we won,
19:10
I have four people on the four by one.
19:12
We won that at the state meeting, four different people
19:14
or three, can't remember how many other letters have in the
19:17
100 that went 123. So I got pretty good at it
19:23
pretty quickly. But Tony had me come with him
19:27
every Sunday for at least eight to 10 hours to the rec center
19:33
and learn everything from like scratch.
19:37
I could take a video one time he made me take every frame.
19:41
And you know we're on AVCR back here in the 90s, right?
19:45
I, I had to count every frame and A1 frame.
19:52
I'll never forget it. I stuff is hard coded in me.
19:55
One frame is 0.0330. Jeez, hi.
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This many frames to get to this many meters to get to this many
20:02
steps of 100 to get to this many 7 frames makes.
20:06
Time 0.33 is an ideal stride, so I learned all the way.
20:13
That's the kind of stuff he would sit and learn on his own,
20:18
per stride. So one.
20:21
Time I got an interview at Tennessee and JJ says for
20:25
assisted coach, JJ Clark puts in a video and he says, OK, I got
20:29
something pretty challenging. I'm going to put a video in and
20:34
you're going to break it down. And I thought to myself, that's
20:38
like child's play. He told me later when I did it,
20:44
he said, this is my coach, 'cause I could do that like no
20:48
tomorrow. And I still do it now.
20:52
And it really does help everything I learned.
20:57
I wouldn't be this far if it wasn't for Tony Wells.
21:01
Tony. Sounds like the perfect example.
21:03
I've said this a few times. You know, a track coach, a
21:06
coach's real superpower is seeing something in someone else
21:10
before they can see it in themselves.
21:12
And so you saw yourself as lighting film movies, you know,
21:17
the Hollywood side, which I love that.
21:19
You'd have been awesome at that, honestly.
21:21
And Tony said, no, no, no, you, you don't see it yet.
21:24
When you look in the mirror, you don't see this yet.
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But you're a track coach. He saw that in you.
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That would have been the last thing I ever thought I would be.
21:35
Ever. I never had.
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I never had the thought. I love it.
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That's and I don't really. Know why he picked me?
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I still don't know what it was to make him say you can do this
21:52
well. I speak for a lot of people when
21:53
I say thank God he did. Honestly, you know, it's like,
21:57
hey, I don't we, we don't know your ways, Tony, but thank you
22:00
for for doing that. I love that.
22:02
Well, let's keep moving on here. You know, Carol, you mentioned
22:05
Tennessee. You, you know, I don't do a lot
22:07
of I don't do any pre research on this.
22:11
So if I get any of these wrong, you just just knock me back and
22:13
let me know. You've coached at Penn State,
22:15
Alabama, Tennessee, now working backwards.
22:20
You're at Georgia, you were at USC and in between, it's kind of
22:25
almost like in my head, I have it like in between your career
22:27
right now, you became the head coach of University of Central
22:31
Florida. Now, what's funny, not a lot of
22:34
people know this. I, I think everybody here does
22:37
at work. So hopefully this isn't a
22:39
surprise. You know, I've been here 18,
22:40
almost 18 years, one one month away and I have only applied for
22:45
one other job since I've been here and it was real recent when
22:49
I got here. So back in O Six O 7 and that
22:51
was the University of Central Florida head coaching job.
22:54
Because. I was like, oh man, this is a
22:57
goldmine. Come on, Orlando.
23:00
UCF is what it was either the one of the largest public
23:03
universities or the largest grow or fastest growing or both.
23:06
It was just like, Oh, yeah, this is a school that is, you know,
23:09
has done well and is ready to explode.
23:11
And for some reason, the AD hired somebody named Carol Smith
23:16
Gilbert instead of me. What the.
23:17
I don't know what this guy was thinking.
23:19
He's, you know, let's say that's some decision making here.
23:22
I'm curious. You know, we love talking about
23:25
coaches in their first time, their head coach in their head
23:28
coaching job because, you know, as an assistant, no, no matter
23:31
what, no matter how involved you get, it's still different than
23:35
being the head coach. Yes.
23:38
You take. Over University of Central
23:40
Florida and you did everything you said you were going to do
23:43
there by the way, plus some. I mean, what a an amazing time
23:46
you had there at the at the University of Central Florida
23:48
way before the Big 12 day. I mean, this is when gosh, I
23:52
don't remember what conference it used to be when I was in the
23:54
conference in Troy. It was the the tack with us and
23:57
UCF. They were probably, I don't even
23:59
think they were Sunbelt small conference and you just did an
24:02
amazing job there. When you look back, when you
24:04
think about did you go from where were you, were you at
24:08
Tennessee, Tennessee to Central Florida?
24:11
Penn State, Alabama, Tennessee. Yeah, usually.
24:14
So when you at Tennessee and you're applying for the job,
24:18
you're interviewing for the job and then you get the job, I know
24:22
you well enough, you're a prepared person.
24:24
You're always thinking about, OK, so what's that mean?
24:26
If I get the job, what's that going to look like?
24:27
What do I got to do, etcetera. But again, you don't know it
24:30
until you sit in that chair. When you look back at it now,
24:33
what was something that as you went into the head coaching job,
24:37
you thought, OK, this this might be challenging for me.
24:41
Like I'm going to have to do, you know, learn how to do this
24:43
or get better at this. And it end up actually being a
24:46
little bit easier than you thought.
24:48
And I'm going to talk a little bit while you think here, give
24:50
you a second to think, you know, you think about all the things a
24:52
head coach has to do, budgeting, recruiting, travel.
24:56
Here's something we don't talk enough about in my opinion,
24:58
hiring and releasing, hiring and firing coaches that that's a,
25:01
there's no training for that. But a head coach has to do that
25:05
fundraising. Maybe you're on committees to
25:08
hire other coaches as a head coach at that point, What what
25:12
did you think when you went in? You're like, oh, I haven't, I
25:13
don't have very much experience in this.
25:15
This might be a little tough. And it ended up being a little
25:16
bit easier than you thought. I think probably budgeting is
25:26
here. It's not that complicated.
25:28
Here's your number, Don't go over it.
25:31
The harder part of budgeting is actually things happen and you
25:35
end up spending more on some meat than you wanted to or than
25:39
you were supposed to. So probably that was easier.
25:43
But basically nothing was easier.
25:46
Everything was harder. You know, as an assistant coach,
25:52
they always think they had, including myself.
25:54
You think you got it figured out and you have a better way of
25:58
doing it than the head coach. But what they don't realize is
26:01
that it may not be feasible or viable based on what?
26:05
Upstairs or the head ID is telling you has to be done and
26:09
how it has to be done so they don't get those conversations.
26:14
So I just say, well, JJ, could you know, JJ do this And he's
26:17
like, no, I'm not going to do that.
26:19
But after you get into the head coaching role, you learn right
26:24
away. Oh jeez, you can't just do that.
26:29
And you have to become very efficient if you want to be able
26:33
to get out there and actually coach.
26:36
Because the way it goes now with these programs, they take you so
26:40
many. There's so many meetings.
26:43
It was about so many things that holding the stopwatch gets
26:48
tougher and tougher to be able to just go out and do for hours
26:51
upon hours if you're going to be efficient at, you know, running
26:55
the program. You, the way you stated that
26:59
made me think of something that has become extremely near and
27:03
dear to my heart. I first learned it through
27:05
Brooks Johnson and then had the actual source, George Williams,
27:09
on the podcast as well. If you're not in the huddle, you
27:12
don't know the play. And when you said that, I
27:14
started thinking about, you know, my time as an assistant
27:16
coach on the collegiate level and same I, you know, a lot of
27:19
times like, well, why won't why won't head coach do this?
27:21
Like this would be easy. Oh, and this would be so great
27:24
and I. Answered all the answers.
27:26
And I now, now that I can sit back from it, I think, Oh yeah,
27:29
I don't know what the AD was on to him or her or her about.
27:33
Like there could have been something that's like, you know,
27:34
the AD is like, hey, we got to cut all of our budget.
27:36
So no, you can't go buy this $10 item because we're we're done
27:40
for the year. What you know, it just made me
27:42
think about. Where EU is $10, there might be
27:46
five other things playing a part why you can't do it, but you
27:49
don't know that. So I was telling the coach the
27:53
other day, Coach Alice left me about 10 things not to do or And
28:00
I said I I'm not. And about two years later, after
28:05
I got one eye and I'm got Gunsmoke on me and my hair is
28:08
blown out and I'm limping in on the cartoons with the exes.
28:16
Actually, they were all nine of them that I didn't do.
28:20
He was right there. There is something to listening
28:27
to the people before you. And I know there's a lot of
28:31
people that go into these jobs and they don't try to talk to
28:35
the former head coach. Well, that person can tell you a
28:38
lot. I still call Coach Alice just
28:41
about being a head coach. I called Coach Gainey here.
28:45
I call Coach Norton. I talk to all of them because I
28:48
need to know not just about head coaching, but what about being
28:51
the coach at Georgia? What is it about here?
28:55
Because there's being a head coach of a program, but then
28:58
there's also being a head coach of the program you're in.
29:02
So things that may apply at AUSC don't apply at Georgia.
29:06
Things that apply in the PAC 12 don't apply in the SEC.
29:11
So there's different things and different nuances at different
29:14
places where you may do yourself a favor by having a mentor or at
29:19
least having a meeting coffee with the former coach to figure
29:22
it out What what do you? Think is a maybe a little unfair
29:26
question 'cause I'm kind of asking you to think about the
29:30
the the reasons of other people. Why do you think?
29:34
What? What?
29:35
Stops others from doing that. You know, we, we talk a lot
29:37
about ego on the podcast and the ego's not bad.
29:40
Bad ego is bad ego is good. That helps us, you know, dress
29:44
better and work out and want to be better coaches that that's
29:47
good. Ego is a good thing.
29:49
Bad ego is, you know, whether it's imposter syndrome or what,
29:54
whatever doesn't allow me to call the former coach and be
29:57
like, Hey, what, you know, so what's the skinny help?
29:59
Can you help me out or, or not? And then then they get to make
30:02
the decision whether they actually answer your phone call
30:04
or not. I think it's different for
30:05
everybody, but I think there is a level of, like I said when I
30:09
was an assistant, oh, I can do this better.
30:15
I don't think I called JJI, don't think I called him one
30:20
time at UCF. But I had to take a lot of Hard
30:23
Knocks, right? Maybe I was trying to prove to
30:26
myself that I could do it without help.
30:29
That doesn't work. Why try to do that, right?
30:32
So I learned that lesson and I and I think that's the thing
30:35
people have to realize. I've noticed that the better
30:39
coaches started at lower levels and took their time to get to
30:44
the top because at lower levels you could learn and make the
30:48
mistakes where no one really dinged you for it, rather than
30:53
jumping right into something big that's in the spotlight and you
30:57
don't know how to manage it. The things that I learned at
31:00
lower levels at UCF helped me at USC and things I learned it and
31:06
that USC is not a lower level. But I didn't have a men's cross
31:09
country program, so I didn't have as many people right, and I
31:12
could only give full scholarship, so the roster
31:14
wasn't as big. But if I had to just jump
31:17
straight into the SEC, I probably would have failed.
31:20
If I had to just jump straight into USC, I probably would have
31:24
failed. UCF gave me the framework and
31:28
the the support to be able to learn and grow as a head coach
31:36
and take those lessons with me as I go.
31:40
I think we get caught up in what people think.
31:43
I think we get distracted by will this person want to take my
31:50
job? You know, insecurity sometimes
31:54
sinks. And Brooks Johnson told me one
31:55
time, you have two ways of hiring people.
31:59
And that is you can hire people that will do exactly what you
32:03
say. They don't threaten your job.
32:06
And you can hire people that they have strong personality,
32:11
but you don't have to tell them how to coach.
32:14
If you hire the people that are inferior to you because you're
32:18
afraid they're going to take your job, you're going to end up
32:21
micromanaging them because they can't score the points you need.
32:25
And then the relationship turns bitter and it doesn't work.
32:30
If you hire the people that can coach and do their job, you have
32:35
to manage their personalities, but you're, you're going to get
32:38
to go do your own job because they can manage their area.
32:43
And you really want people that want to be head coaches because
32:47
they're going to do their very best to do for for your program
32:53
and make it good versus those that don't want to be a head
32:56
coach. You're going to always be
32:58
micromanaging them. And I've learned over time that
33:02
that's exactly right. And I've tried to get the best
33:07
coaches that I can get and just manage, you know, day-to-day
33:10
things and let them do their thing.
33:13
So you. You.
33:14
Trade I love. I love that I never have not
33:16
heard that yet on the podcast. So you trade off some.
33:23
The. Impact of losing my words here a
33:26
little bit here. You know, if you're hiring
33:29
coaches who want to be future head coaches because you're like
33:32
good, you can run your run your side.
33:34
I don't have to worry about you as much.
33:36
But then but you give up a little bit of consistency.
33:38
That was the word of like, Oh, well, in five years I, I may be
33:41
hiring again or, or whatnot. So you you have the you have to
33:44
play that trade off for them. If you're really trying to build
33:47
people, help them with their career, you have to come to
33:51
terms with that too. Get upset when they want to go
33:55
do that. You can't.
33:56
That's that's like you did. You wanted to be a head coach,
34:00
So did they. That's right.
34:02
That's a good point. Just.
34:03
Because not you anymore, right? That's a.
34:05
Good point. That's what's what's good for me
34:06
is not good for you or something like that.
34:09
Yeah, you stay here and. Help me.
34:10
Yeah, right. Help me get my goals right.
34:12
All right. Yeah.
34:13
How have you and and what have you done?
34:16
You. You mentioned the pivotal role
34:18
that being the head coach at University of Central Florida
34:20
helped to use successes at USC and now at Georgia.
34:25
You know, you know, there's a lot of clinics we can go to.
34:28
USD, FCA does an amazing job. There's a lot of clinics around
34:32
the country we can go to become a better Sprint coach or a
34:34
better jumps coach, et cetera. Now the USTFCAI think is doing a
34:39
better job of this than anybody else right now.
34:41
But there's very few places, none that I know of that I can
34:44
go. And how do I become a better
34:46
head coach? And again, all those things that
34:48
are under the purview of head coach again, hiring, if I hire,
34:51
I shouldn't say evaluate, evaluating your staff from year
34:53
to year, budgeting, etcetera like that.
34:56
How have you, you're a better coached head coach today than
35:00
you were the first day you stepped in at UCF.
35:03
How have you professionally development, if you will
35:06
yourself as a head coach role, huh?
35:10
That's the missing link. I've I've thought about my LLC
35:14
trying to start something to that effect.
35:18
Just like a head coach's Academy or something like it.
35:22
You learn on the job as a head coach and if you don't have
35:25
people you can trust to give you solid advice you just.
35:32
It's all hit or miss and that's the thing they throw you the
35:36
keys and then say, first question, are you going to keep
35:39
the staff or not? Well, I didn't know that I had
35:45
to deal with this first on the job.
35:50
What I have done, though, is as I mature through it, I asked the
35:55
AD Now, hey, don't make me be in charge of that, right?
36:00
The staff should not be my responsibility to keep or not.
36:03
I should not be the one walking in the door telling them I'm not
36:06
keeping them. You should tell them that they
36:08
have to go because there's a new head coach coming.
36:11
And if the coach wants them, they'll call them.
36:13
Because what happens is say they're friends with someone in
36:16
the business office. Well, that person's mad at me
36:19
for the next two years because I fired their friend, but I didn't
36:22
know they were friends. So it's just kind of unfair if
36:26
there's small things like that and it's there's, that's not
36:29
really small, that's big, but it's small 'cause you don't
36:32
think about it when you're pursuing a head coaching
36:35
position, right in the phone calls that you have to make of
36:39
the people that are already there.
36:43
That's a you know, at first when you were describing that, Carol,
36:46
I was AI was a little bit like, I think you're like, my opinion
36:48
is you're wrong here that it's not your job as the head coach.
36:52
But when you gave that example of like, hey, I, you know, I
36:54
didn't make the decision of the staff of the the former head
36:57
coach, etcetera, and but but I've with the.
37:00
Fallout yeah, yeah, I've. Got to inherit everything
37:02
meaning business, office, academics, etcetera.
37:04
Hawaii's lady. Won't give me anything because
37:06
her best friend was the other coach.
37:08
That's a. That's a I've never heard that.
37:10
That's a really good point actually.
37:11
I hope there's a lot of ADS listening.
37:12
That's a really, really good point.
37:14
I think they should. Be the ones to say you can deal
37:17
with them over here. And then if I want to bring them
37:19
back in, I can bring them back in, yeah.
37:23
Same topic as head coach, but a little bit different vein here.
37:26
Pick your brain here. You know, in the coaching world,
37:31
in the college coaching world and maybe in the no, I, I, I
37:35
almost said the big time coaching world, the powerful or
37:37
whatever, Division One, etcetera.
37:39
There's AI love busting myths. So let's let's see where you are
37:42
on this. What I think is a myth, any job
37:46
that's open. So Carol, when you have a job
37:48
open, when the coach from XYZ sees it advertised on NCAA
37:54
market or USTFCA, you've already made your decision.
37:58
That's just AI got to do that because that's the law thing.
38:02
The the myth is that any job, especially a job that has a big
38:06
name attached to a Georgia, USC, etcetera, already is filled and
38:11
you're too late because you didn't know, you didn't have the
38:13
inside skinny, you weren't BFFS with Carol or whatnot.
38:16
Tell me, true, false what? What's your side of this?
38:20
Part true, part false. OK, that's fair, My AD that
38:25
hired me at USC told me. Pat Hayden, he's Rhodes Scholar,
38:31
right? Scott, Another genius.
38:33
I find a lot of geniuses, he said.
38:37
Every great leader head coach is what we were talking about
38:42
already has a list of the next three people they would hire.
38:46
One of the positions is gone. So I'm already what I don't
38:53
think assistant coaches realize is if I have a casual
38:56
conversation with you at a meet that was an interview you just
38:59
walked away from. So if you said something bad
39:05
about your head coach at and I ain't never going to hire that
39:08
person. The interactions that we have on
39:12
a daily basis or a weekly basis with other coaches at other
39:15
places are definitely interviews.
39:18
How they walk in, how they're dressed.
39:20
Oh, never have him on my staff. Those crazy looking clothes on
39:26
everything. Even how they conduct themselves
39:28
as student athletes is now that I see I'm older and I, I'm at
39:34
the position where those kids are like 30 and I remember, Oh
39:40
no, they so, but the, the people that conduct themselves with
39:45
class and you know, they speak, they may have something to say
39:48
about the head coach, but they teeter and don't say it.
39:51
I can tell that's OK. You know, you always have a list
39:55
of who's doing a good job and who you would hire next or your
39:59
positions if you're going to be an effective, realistic leader
40:04
and if you're a leader. Who, as I said previously, has
40:08
the intention of promoting, getting people to better
40:12
positions and moving up the ladder.
40:15
You got to have that. You can't say, oh, I'm going to
40:17
move them up, but I have no idea what I'm going to do next.
40:21
Got to always have that on the forefront of your mind.
40:23
And I've noticed in the SEC people come and take I I've had
40:28
nine different people this year between academics and hired
40:32
strength coach, academics trainer to the coaches, new play
40:38
graphic people. It's just, it's just always
40:40
going because when you're at A at A at a major university,
40:43
people want your people. And the lower the schools that
40:47
are in the lower divisions, like mid majors come and get a person
40:51
to be the head and some coach Thomas went to Oklahoma.
40:56
So that's a big time job, but I always have to have a list in my
41:01
mind. So I have the list.
41:04
I still post it. Obviously they make us.
41:08
But sometimes I do come across things online or or candidates
41:16
that come through the portal, that hiring portal, not
41:20
transport. Yeah, that's like.
41:21
Small. Don't start that.
41:24
So little, I would say 7030. Yeah, I, I like.
41:29
That, that, you know, not it, it's rarely that one thing is
41:33
the one thing so that it's black or white.
41:35
So I, I like that 'cause I think you're right.
41:37
I I was hopeful and kind of had the inclination that especially
41:41
after you described about like, Hey, if you know, I want people
41:44
that want to become head coaches one day, which means I'm going
41:46
to have not a revolving door, but that means they're going to
41:49
to go on to other opportunities, which means, and you said it
41:53
exactly right. If I'm going to be lifting up
41:55
and people are going to be moving on, well, then I better
41:57
have some preparation for the infill of who's going to replace
42:00
them. So I had the idea that you
42:02
probably were a person who had, you know, their eye out on on
42:05
potentials before there's an even an opposition open, right?
42:09
Yeah, yeah, I like that and. And I would say I want people
42:12
that want to move up, but I don't want to feel like they
42:15
want to leave the first day they get here.
42:17
I need to know that you have some kind of, you want to see a
42:20
class through you. You have some long term goals
42:23
here, but your eventual goal is to be a head coach.
42:27
Like I want you to tell me I'm here, but I'm going to go be an
42:30
assistant at the next place just because it's $5000 more.
42:34
I mean, yeah, I get that. All right, let's wrap up with
42:41
with this. As you you know, you sit in a
42:43
very earned, but I would call privileged position.
42:49
You may hit me for that meaning meaning you are a head coach of
42:54
an SEC program. That, that's what I mean by, you
42:56
know, things that I know you still have your, I learned this
43:01
actually from you. I used to believe there are some
43:05
universities, maybe it's only 5 in the whole country that I was
43:08
like, oh, everything's perfect. Or at least other people think
43:10
everything is perfect for them. And I remember visiting you at
43:13
USC and we sat down in your office in the, in the boardroom
43:17
there and I was like, so Karen, how's it going?
43:19
And you're like, oh, Mike, you have no idea.
43:21
And I was like, Oh my God, like some, you know, one of our
43:23
products isn't working for, you know, I was, you know, and
43:25
you're like, Oh my, you know, my track, the band private coach.
43:30
And I was like, Oh my God, wait, USC has these issues?
43:35
Like if I asked 100 coaches throughout the country, does USC
43:40
have it perfect? 99.9 would say, Oh yeah, it's
43:43
USC. Come on, historic facility,
43:45
historic program. And it's like, oh, you have no
43:47
idea. Carol has battles.
43:49
She she even USC. And so now Q he has battle.
43:51
There's everybody has things that they're going through
43:54
academically, admissions, budget, whether I mean every,
44:00
everybody has this thing. So what advice?
44:05
There's coaches listening now that want to be you.
44:08
They don't know what that means by the way, but they they say I
44:12
want to be like Carol one day. What advice do you have for
44:16
someone? So you have worked your way from
44:20
this high school. Yeah, high school kid that Tony
44:25
Wells said you're not good enough to winning a national
44:30
title in a very exciting way. By the way, winning national
44:32
titles, all Americans, head of the president of the division,
44:37
one of US TF, CCA coaching the Olympians.
44:41
I mean, that is, you know, if I were to say, hey, tell me what
44:43
the Holy Grail is a track coach is they they would write that
44:45
resume. So what is your best advice for
44:49
someone there? Doesn't matter.
44:51
They're a high school coach. They're an assistant at D3.
44:53
They're a head coach of Division One.
44:55
Doesn't matter. They want to continue to level
44:57
up their coaching. What is your best advice that
45:00
you can give them? The relationships that you build
45:07
along the way are very, very, very important.
45:13
The interactions that you have, the way that you treat people,
45:17
it's, it's probably one of the everybody crosses paths with you
45:22
again and again. And I don't just mean the
45:24
coaches. I mean I have a person, Marcus
45:28
said. Barry, I don't think he might.
45:30
He was a life skills assistant to the assistant at UCF.
45:35
Well, now he's #2 at Wisconsin, right?
45:40
I treated Marcus very nice. But if I had not, I'm sure there
45:46
would be a Josh Brooks calling to ask a question about hiring
45:50
me, some kind of a would it not go so well?
45:54
I think that the coaches have to be willing to work, like I said,
46:04
at a great school that will help them learn how to be at a bigger
46:09
school. If I look at the Edrick Florio's
46:12
and the Mouse Holloway's and all these people, they didn't start
46:16
right at the top, right? They work their way up and
46:21
that's why they can sustain. There's one thing of being at
46:26
the top, just at the top right away.
46:29
But can you stay there? How do you manage on a
46:33
day-to-day basis with your professionalism?
46:38
How do you treat people? I also think there's an
46:42
unrealistic vein of how much people think they should be
46:45
paid. I started at Penn State for 17/5
46:50
and I had to teach jogging and strength training to get to 17
46:55
Five and I put every day at 8:00 AM for jogging in State College,
47:00
PA. That's not fun in the winter.
47:04
And then I had to teach a strength training class.
47:06
I left there to go to Alabama for $32,000 and I took my first
47:12
head coaching job at UCF for 80,000.
47:16
But I hear assistants say they want 150 and it's like you don't
47:21
have any all Americans. You coach no one.
47:27
So it's hard for me to listen to entitlement when I've had to go
47:33
every single step, right? I went to Penn State just to get
47:38
in the door. I go to Alabama, where nobody
47:41
wanted to come. That's.
47:42
True from early 2. Thousands, right to be in the
47:48
SEC to learn how to recruit and compete in the SEC.
47:52
I go to Tennessee to learn how to win championships.
47:56
I go to UCF to learn how to be a head coach.
48:00
But I I asked the AD where is that when he called no.
48:05
I didn't know. And I was seven months pregnant.
48:09
That's right. That's right.
48:10
I didn't I didn't negotiate on salary, right?
48:14
I went to the USC to get into the power five.
48:16
A lot of people didn't want that job.
48:19
It's in LA. It's tough, tough, right?
48:23
So every single step was for something for me to learn.
48:29
And all of those places have taught me keep it all for now.
48:38
And this place is teaching me something else.
48:41
So I don't normally know it while I'm in it.
48:44
I know it after I love it anymore.
48:48
Yeah, I. Love that, you know, I think,
48:50
you know, being a good person is always the right thing.
48:53
So when you talk about relationships are very, very
48:56
important it I love you. You mentioned Marcus's name and
48:59
when you said that I actually know, I'm glad you put the
49:02
picture of he's at Wisconsin, 'cause I'm like, I know that
49:04
name. How do I know that?
49:06
I know the Wisconsin guys real well.
49:07
Arkansas. Baylor.
49:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what?
49:10
He just. So the same way we're doing
49:12
that, the trainers are doing it, compliance ADS are doing it.
49:17
So if you see somebody at one place, you're going to cross
49:20
their path again. Or I know somebody from UCF who
49:24
is at a school of someone I want to hire, so I call him.
49:29
How is this coach? So it's it's it's all connected,
49:33
Yeah. And here's.
49:34
In your. Sport.
49:36
And here's the thing, I want to. Make sure people are are hearing
49:38
this. You're not saying it, but I know
49:39
you and I know you the the undertones here.
49:43
Your advice with that, which is spot on, I believe, is not
49:46
because those people can help you one day.
49:49
It's because, well, that's just the right thing to do.
49:51
Whether they're the the second assistant in compliance or
49:53
they're the AD of the SEC doesn't matter.
49:56
It's not because of what they can do for you.
49:58
Yeah, that's yeah. So I.
50:00
Tell my staff and my younger coaches, coaching shows you who
50:05
you are. You got to make some decisions
50:10
like you said earlier, hiring and firing.
50:13
You want to ask to get in the portal because they can't handle
50:18
the level, right? Who you're going to sign, who
50:22
you're not going to sign because they have some character issues.
50:26
Coaching shows you who you are and you have to really look deep
50:34
on some moral things day-to-day. And if you're just at the core
50:41
of yourself, you're just not a good person, you're going to
50:44
struggle. There's too many.
50:46
Things that intersect and it's not always easy and it's a
50:50
slower, it's a slower route to success, but it's more
50:54
sustainable in the long run because the truth is just the
50:58
truth. And I'm going to do it the same
51:03
way every time, because this is just who I am.
51:06
Everybody can hide. You can't hide forever though.
51:09
Yeah, and. Wherever you go, you're still
51:11
there. Yeah, that's right.
51:12
Everywhere you go, you are still you.
51:14
That's exactly right, Carol. Thank you so much.
51:16
You know, one of the most valuable things you can ever
51:18
give me is your time. And I know how busy you are.
51:21
And like I said, you are a person of your word, though you
51:24
told me it's probably two years ago.
51:26
You're like I I'll be on the podcast.
51:27
We just had to get it done in the right time.
51:29
And so just so grateful that's. Another thing, I was recruited
51:33
to like 200 schools. I was a number top three
51:36
sprinter in my class in 87, but there was a school that called
51:41
me and I told him, yeah, I'll come on an official visit,
51:47
right? There was no Internet or
51:48
anything in 86. Hating myself.
51:53
My dad says you told him you're going on a visit.
51:55
I said I'm not going. I didn't mean that.
51:58
He said, oh, you told him you're going, you're going.
52:03
He sent a ticket, your goal. And I was miserable on that
52:08
visit. But what it taught me, all you
52:12
have is your word. And my dad wouldn't let me out
52:15
of my word. So if you say you're going to do
52:18
something, do it. If you're not sure, just don't
52:20
say it. I love it.
52:21
I love it. Well, you've, you've lived up to
52:25
dad and his expectations and Tony and his expectations and a
52:28
lot of other people that have poured into you.
52:30
And I'm just so, so grateful because now it's reversed and
52:34
you're pouring into to others, whether it's your athletes, your
52:37
staff, support staff, including me.
52:39
You know, I've, I've known you for quite a while and you know,
52:42
everything you said, I can attest to it very consistent.
52:45
And I, and I love that. And I appreciate that very much
52:48
from from you and, and everybody that I've worked with around you
52:50
as well. So, so Carol, thank you so much.
52:53
I appreciate it. Thank you guys, Sir, let's say
52:55
again. No worries.
52:57
Thank you. Oh, no, no.
52:58
It's all go dogs, go dogs. That's it.
53:01
That's how we'll end the podcast.
53:02
Thank you guys for being here today.
53:03
I appreciate you so much. Join us next week.
53:05
We'll do it all over again. Thanks guys.
53:10
If it goes to appreciate the coach, the ones who point people
53:13
most every season needs a voice of reason speaking the growth
53:16
you got to prep for you carry the load.
53:18
It's caught to the soul. For those of us who stand to go
53:21
proper handoff and stay in the zone which you packing for the
53:24
road. There's more than one way to go.
53:26
Take notes. That's damn you're told it ain't
53:28
practice. If your purpose ain't clear, it
53:30
can't happen to you. Listen, what both is can't
53:33
mentor without a mentor years of experience.
53:36
You can reinvent those years. Every plan's got a standard you
53:39
live up to and the price sacrifice can you give up you.
53:42
It's a choice and a fight, not a win or lose.
53:45
It's not a ploy but advice. Y'all can make more moves.
53:47
It's not about how to, it's all about why you don't know till
53:50
you know who you are inside 6,000,000.
53:53
Waste of time, choose none. So y'all course finish line, the
53:56
work ain't done so we learn from the experts.
53:58
We y'all got to put in the legwork Kill Athletics network.
54:02
It's all about connections put together for the profession To
54:05
every track. Coach could be blessed.