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The Grinch, Van Halen and The Ramada Inn: The Highs and Lows of a Christian in Hollywood · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Murders to Music podcast.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I'm Aaron, your host.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: We have an amazing show for you tonight, an amazing guest.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: So tonight we're going to connect all these dots the Grinch with Jim Carrey opening for Guns N' Roses, working with Van Halen growing up in Los Angeles, and much, much more.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Tonight you guys are going to meet Mr Michael Key.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Mr Michael Key is a guitar player.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: He lives in the Vancouver area.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: He's a guitar player in Double Down, the band that I'm involved with, and he's an amazing, amazing man.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about all the highs and lows.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about what life was like in Hollywood growing up, what it was like working on movie sets.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: But before I give away the rest of his thunder, I'm going to bring him on the show.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: So why don't you guys welcome in with me Mr Michael Key?
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: All right, ladies and gentlemen, Mr Michael Key so one of those guys that every time you say his name, I have to say his first and his last name.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to turn towards Michael.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: While I talk to him, you guys get a side view of my head, so I'll tell a little story about meeting Michael.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: So I moved to the Pacific Northwest in 2010.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: And about 2015,.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I started attending a church Cheers, Started attending a church here in the Vancouver area and the first night I went to play drums.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: There was this guy on stage and he looked like Hollywood and he had a scarf on and he had necklaces and he had rings on and watches.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: And I'm like who is this dude?
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: So he plays guitar and he played it really really well and he was wearing a scarf and that's what I remember about the first time I met him and he went into my phone that night and he was talking about some whiskey that he wanted or some lavender flavored, something that he wanted, and it was hard to find and I was going to Seattle the next week, so I wanted him to like me, so I offered to pick it up for him, but that never panned out, Anyway, so he went into my phone as Michael Guitar Scarf.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: That's how I knew him.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So now it's been a few years, almost a decade, and we're still together.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for being on the show.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Dude, I'm honored to come and do this with you.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you're doing a podcast thing.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: It's cool that you.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: It's great to see the number of um episodes that you have.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Now, you know, I'll tell you one thing about podcasts, though, yeah, I never used to listen to podcasts.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I remember clarence ah, howard, clarence ah is a guy that we both know.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: You worship leader at our church and and he asked me one time and, uh, he says you listen to podcasts?
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: And I go, no, not really.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: It's funny because I listen to podcasts every day, several.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: The other one is he turned me one time.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: He says do you listen to podcasts?
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: And I go, no, not really.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: It's funny because I listen to podcasts every day, several.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: The other one is he turned me on to.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: He asked me if I had Spotify, and I thought that was actually part of the menstrual cycle, so I didn't know what that was, and so he schooled me on.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, there's this thing called Spotify that you can listen to music on.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: So in the early days this is before your time, actually the early days of Clarence he would give us the worship sets on, uh, on Spotify.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: And now, uh, I'm it's all Clarence's fault because I I'm a Spotify guy and I listen to podcasts every day, so I'm honored to be on yours, man.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, dude.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Hey, I'm just trying to get this noise gate off, so give me two seconds here.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Is that what's?
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: going on with my mic.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear it.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's cutting you out.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: So I want to just open this up.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: That was me.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: No, no, it's the noise gate.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: So you've watched some, and the way that I go through my stuff is I just want to talk about you know my transition from where I was to where I am now and the things that have influenced me along the way.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: But the more I've got to know you over the last decade I can't believe it's been that long the more I've got to know you over almost the last decade.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I know a little bit about your history, but very little.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Even just before talking tonight before the show, when we were talking, I learned more about you than I've ever known in the past.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: So I want to explore some of that stuff.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about Hollywood and what that's all about and why I call you Hollywood and the scarf and just the image that you have, and I think once the listeners understand what your history is, it'll all make sense.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Is that cool?
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fine.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: It is interesting about the whole Hollywood thing.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: When I came north actually let me back that up when I was in LA, I was just another guy, because everybody, a lot of people, work in the movies.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: I was a Burbank kid, so you either worked in aerospace or you worked in entertainment, so it's like half the town, or at least a third of the town, works and on film, television, radio, you know something.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: It's just not that special.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: But I come up here and I become like the token hollywood guy, which is really, uh, an interesting thing.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: You know, when it's all said and, oh, that's, that's special now or something, or it's unusual, so yeah, it's just as part of the deal, but no, I'm happy to.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Um, I figured this was going to be a really different type of interview and whatnot.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: And it makes it easy because I've known you a long time, so I'm really comfortable with you.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Have you been interviewed before for things like this?
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, I've been interviewed so, so, so many times, but it's really nothing like this kind of podcast and what we're doing, I feel feel like it's different.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I think it's more, it's more in depth, it's more going deeper, it's going behind the curtain a bit.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're hearing that gate, aren't you?
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing it.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Typically I like it, but tonight I want it to go away, go away you, evil gate, you evil gate, we don't want you anymore.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: No gates you, evil gate, you, evil gate, we don't want you anymore.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: No gates for you.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: But I figured you know there would be things I could talk about that I don't normally do, like you said.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: It's not uncommon what you just said.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: You said that you've known me a long time and then us just talking a little bit, it's like, oh, I had no idea, and I've gotten that a number of times.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: When I get to know somebody and we're going deeper than surface stuff and then they start finding out my story and they're going.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: You've got to be kidding.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Well, let's start with your story.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Tell me about growing up.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So if I understand correctly, you were born in Los Angeles.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: You had kind of a troublesome first few years.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Your parents tell me that story.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Let's get into that a little bit.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they told me I was born in LA.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I don't remember much about it so I guess it's kind of hearsay.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: But I guess it was General Hospital in Los Angeles and I lived there the first four years of my life At the hospital.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Almost.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Actually, it might have been better if I was still there.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: My mother was 17 when I was born barely 17, and my dad was 21, about to return 22.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: So kids having kids, and their marriage was already falling apart.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: And I think they stayed together long enough for me to be born.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: I think they felt some obligation.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I've got this baby.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: So they tried to make an extra effort.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: But I don't remember any of that because my mom and dad split up before I can remember, and my dad was wild, young and not fit to be a parent, and neither was my mom.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: She was a child.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: So my grandparents stepped in, as grandparents sometimes do.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: That, you know, they'll bridge the gap and they were doing it.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: So they were raising me and that wasn't great either, because their marriage was really tumultuous.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: I saw my grandmother and grandfather.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: You know they weren't young at the time.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: I saw them physically fight Wow.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I saw my grandmother going after my grandfather with a butcher knife, physically fight Wow.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I saw my grandmother going after my grandfather with a butcher knife and him using a chair to keep distance between them and me, hiding underneath the dining room table because I, you know, I'm a kid.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: So this is my world, this is infrastructure, these are the people that are supposed to be the adults and the stability.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: And you know what do you do?
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: And how old were you at this time I don't know it was I want to say it's before my fourth birthday.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: So it's one of those earliest childhood memories, is my sure?
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Not that everything was uh traumatic.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: I had fun time with the cats and fun to like when my grandfather would come home my way.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: He's kind of like.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: They were like really like from a role standpoint, like my mom and dad.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: In a way they were filling that, that gap.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: My grandma was there all day and and there's no kids there was, actually there were kids.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: There were some kids that were across the the fence in another house but I was told those were bad kids so I'm not supposed to play with them.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: So thanks a lot, the only kids around there.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: So I have nobody to interact with except for the cats and my grandmother.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: So I got the only child thing big time and TV.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: There was my big pacifier.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I was a TV kid.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: So when my grandfather, who was an iron worker, when he would come home, it's like dad's getting home, that was a big, exciting thing.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: So they were really in that type of roles in my life.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: But, as you can tell, their relationship was screwball and they ended up splitting up.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: So was your mom and your dad still involved in your life during this time, or had they moved on and done something else?
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Where are they at during this time, or were they?
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: had they moved on and done something else where they added during this whole period okay, mom, I have one like very, very fuzzy memory of her being at my fourth birthday party and I can't even see her face, she's just kind of there.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: They don't have much memory of it and from that point forward I didn't see her again till I was 30.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Wow, what about dad?
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Dad was a ruffian young guy out there drinking and fighting and not prepared to really be a parent in any way of any kind.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: So he was, you know.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: He would come show up sometimes.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: It was like, oh cool, this is my dad, you know, and he's only 22 years older than me.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: So we're closer, a lot closer in age than me with my son, yeah, but, um, yeah, that was cool, but you know, he only came around sometimes and so I didn't have much relationship with him, although I did see.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: This is where it's all screwball.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: He got married to his second wife sometime before I was four and I went and stayed with them for a little bit and they had the wife, had another son and it didn't last that long and it felt all bizarre, I'm there and that fell apart.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: And then I came back to grandma and grandpa again, and then they split up.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Long story short.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: My grandmother took me, grabbed me up and moved to Texas because that's where she had family and what not?
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: So how old were you when you moved from LA to Texas?
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I think it was just before my 5th birthday, maybe sometime between 4 and 5 and grandpa didn't go no, no, they were, I think it was just before my fifth birthday maybe Sometime between four and five, and grandpa didn't go.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: No, no, they were, they were already split.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was then split.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: In fact, before that, I remember, in the middle of the night, us getting in like a van or something my grandfather and I and I think my uncle maybe and then all of a sudden we're off at some apartment in the middle of the night sleeping on the floor and I I don't know what's going on.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Wow, so I'm just trying to roll with it all so those first when did life kind of settle out for you and level out, or has it, has it yet?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: not even close.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: No, no, I moved to texas and so I went from being actually went from being the like the only child thing, and I haven't had any other kids to interact with.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: And then I move into the apartment with, you know, the grandfather, and all of that, and there's other kids there, but I don't know how to.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: You know, I haven't developed any social skills yet, so I don't know how to share yet and do all that stuff.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: So it's a lot of tug of war.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: It was very short-lived.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And then we go to Texas and the entire street is just full of kids and I so badly want to interact with them, like yes, and you know, because of my behavior I'm actually, you know, they're like no.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Getting pushed away.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: The new kid is like what's wrong with this dude?
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: The?
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: new kid's not cool.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to get along.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: It's like he's never seen another kid before.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: You know that really sucks when you're a little kid.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I wanted so bad to get on with those kids and I just didn't have the tools to do so in that moment, so it was pretty hard.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: So anyway, let me, so we don't turn the whole thing into my little childhood thing.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: No, it's all good, which is?
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: So now you're seven, eight and something happened around 14 years old in you and music and tell me a little bit about that.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Actually it'd be 12.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: 12 would be another main thing.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: That's when I went I realized I was starting to realize some things, because you know, I'm 12 and I'm out, would live with my uncle because my grandmother passed and so now I'm with him and I went and stayed with my dad, with his wife number four, and it seemed that seemed a little bit more like a, like a family, and there's something in me that said I think I want to be a part of that instead of just with my uncle in Texas.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I think what it was really was God's hand.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: It was time to get me out of Texas.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And so I did.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I went out there to see him and I just never left.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: And so I had.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: You know, I was being grafted in with a crowbar into this family the kid that didn't fit anything else.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And at this time I'm not really good at anything.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not a sports kid because I didn't have anybody teach me how to catch and all the hand-eye coordination, so I wasn't a sports kid and I wasn't really an academic.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I was a kid that loved TV and science fiction and that's about it and kind of like movies and things like that, but that there was no way to connect with other people at that time for it.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Then the real thing changes at 14.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: I got to go see a concert.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: What was the concert?
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: It was Peter Frampton and I had been listening to that and I just.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: It was Peter Frampton Comes Alive, which for many decades I don't know, maybe even still is like the largest selling live album in history.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: It certainly held that status for a long time and I had an amazing time.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Actually, I don't even remember how I even got there.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Somebody must have taken me I'm 14, so I'm not driving and it wasn't my parents that took me.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: They hated all the music that I listened to.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I'll have to figure that out one of these days.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: How I got there.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: I was having a blast.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: He's having more fun than me.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I want to do that.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: It's what every kid does.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I want to be a baseball player.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I want to be the astronaut.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: I want to be the astronaut.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: It's like I want to be the dude that's having such a great time.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I bet he's like rich and and and he goes and plays, places, music and stuff.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: So I threw everything in me to learn to play guitar and be all about that.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: That was like okay, now I had.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I went from no direction to like that's my direction so how old were you when you picked up your first guitar?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: 14.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, I think I had been given a guitar earlier than that, but I didn't do anything with it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was like there's a guitar.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: There was no vision for it, so I wasn't going after it.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, 14, I went after it and for 10 years that's what there was.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: The goal.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Everything I was doing was supposed to be about that.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: So I was growing my hair out long, which means I couldn't work at all the jobs that my friends were working at.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: I couldn't go work fast food, I couldn't go.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Well, you cut your hair, we'll hire you.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: They'd say, no, it's not worth it.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: So I worked lame jobs and so take that forward to 24.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Actually, during that time there were some very interesting things, because it's Hollywood kind of Hollywood.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I was a Bermuda kid, so Bermuda's not really Hollywood, it's LA.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: So explain it to me.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not from the area, so talk to me about that, geographically, how that fits into place.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, and probably a lot of people listening to this too may not understand this, like, not understand this.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Like Hollywood, even actors, a lot of actors, don't even live in Hollywood.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Hollywood is a lot like crackheads and prostitutes, and it's Hollywood itself, the central part, that's really Hollywood.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: It's usually not great, especially in Hollywood Boulevard Is there anything negative about it?
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: We got crackheads and prostitutes.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Is there anything negative about Hollywood?
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Or is it all that glitz and glam?
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, it's a funky place, but most actors they live in Beverly Hills, they live in Bel Air, they live in really nice places and they come there to work and it's more seedy, but that's where the rock and roll clubs were and all those things.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: But I lived in Burbank and back then it was called the sleepiest town or something I'm dating myself.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Johnny Carson used to call it like the world's largest retirement home or something you know, trying to it's.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: It's really was very calm and nothing exciting happened there, and that's a chill place, is where I, where I lived.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: The bedroom community of Hollywood.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is that.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: I mean NBC was there and some other things During this time.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: When I started playing clubs in Hollywood after high school, it was kind of odd.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I was playing in Christian bands, so that was usually church people were over here, and then rock and roll people were over here in clubs.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: The two didn't mix.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: We're going to come back to that Christianity.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: We're going to put a pin in it.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: We're going to circle back to that in a second.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Good, I want to hear about that.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: So we hear them in these Christian bands and like let's go play clubs.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: And that was a bit different.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: The first Christian band I was in we were playing everywhere Most gigging band I've ever been in.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: We played literally every weekend someplace Really lame gigs.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: But we played.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: What kind of music were you guys playing?
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: What were you guys doing?
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: It was kind of like early Christian rock music kind of rock, got more rockier at times than others, but we're playing like farmers markets and churches and little churches, big churches, and then that split up and then I put together a band called Town Crier and I wanted to go play clubs and do things because I had oh, I skipped a part.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I got really, really blessed to learn guitar at one point from a guy named Randy.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Rhodes?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Who's Randy Rhodes?
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Randy Rhodes.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: He was in a local band called Quiet Riot and he had gone to the high school that I had, although he was a few years ahead of me, but he was like a local guitar hero dude and I got to take lessons from him and that was a game changer.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: And then Ozzy Osbourne, who had been with Black Sabbath, put together his own band and he hired Randy and stole him away from Quiet Riot, which meant that was the end of my guitar lessons.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: So was Randy Rhoads Quiet Riot.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: When Quiet Riot was big and made the limelight, no, no, that's really a.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: That was more of a caricature of Quiet Riot.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: The Quiet Riot that Randy was in was a.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: I don't think they knew exactly what they wanted to be.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: They were a cross between Queen and Van Halen or something.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: It was heavier but it had a sincerity about it that was on it.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: After Randy left, they carried on but then they became that when they finally did get that and they come, hear the noise, bang your head thing, all of that.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: It was like this strange caricature of what Quiet Ride had been before, but people didn't get to see the real one with Randy.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: It was amazing with Randy.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: That was cool.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: And then also, when I was 16, I got to my dad was driving truck at that time and he pulled up a generator to Fresno for a concert and he says you want to go?
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And I said, oh okay, when is this?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And there was no internet.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: But I did get Circus Magazine.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I don't remember that.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: It's before your time, before my time, buddy.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: It was kind of like a music magazine, very, very mainstream music magazine.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: But in the back they had a list of gigs going on tours and who was playing what where.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: So I look at the dates.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: I'm combing through that and I find it Fresno March, whenever it was.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I go oh, it's the Fabulous Poodles.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Really it's the Fab cool.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know who they are, but going.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: This sounds like a new wave band, uh, but I thought it's a professional gig.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I will learn something from it because at this time I'm playing in like a garage band.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I was like two guitars and a singer singing out of a guitar.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: All one guitar amp took been there yeah, totally it's.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I'm at that level and so I thought I'll go.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: My dad asked my sister you want to go too?
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And she goes, who's playing?
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Nah, I'll pass, thank you.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So we get up there and it's in the middle of the night.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: We get in the back where all the loading dock is for the venue, and I'm not tired yet, so I get out of the cabin, I walk around the joint, I finally get to the front and there's the big marquee Van Halen sold out, special guests, the fabulous pools.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, I went.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is a whole different thing, but you have to remember this is 1979, late 78, early 79, somewhere there Not to age you, but that's 78 is when I was born.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a child, I was in diapers, but it Not to age you.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: But that's 78 is when I was born.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a child, I was in diapers, but I was still there.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So for the listener's, perspective.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Never mind, anyway, keep going, keep going.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: So, if you know Van Halen, the first album had been out and the second album's about ready to drop, but they had been opening for all these other bands and this is their first time, it's the first date on their second world tour with them headlining.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And I thought okay, and I barely slept that night and I'm not a huge Van Halen fan yet because I'm still trying to figure out what they are, because they're so different than everything that was happening but I was there at eight o'clock in the morning, I'm ready.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: It's like, okay, I'm going to talk my way into this thing.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to and I got a whole education See the concerts.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I'd been to when I'd see the lights and the PA.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: I just thought that was a part of the venue.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I didn't know the bands brought that stuff with them.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I had no idea why would I venue.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I didn't know the bands brought that stuff with them.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Why would I know that?
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: And I'm watching and there's a stage out there, all the scaffolding on the stage at eight o'clock in the morning and opened up one of their three semis and there's these big pieces of what I know, now is truss coming out and I'm going, okay, what's all that?
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: And then they're putting together this erector set thing and then there's these guys up in the rafters and they're walking around like crazy people attaching straps and dropping chains and eventually start lifting it off the ground and then start attaching all the lights, because that was back in the day, it was all legals, infernals yeah, and then getting all that and then flying the pa and the band stuff didn't come out, I think until noon.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: It was like all that time was just for lights and sound getting up in there and finally now something's coming out that I, you know, I have like some understanding of oh, it's a guitar.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I understand that well, they didn't see the guitars.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, these walls of speakers and things.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: And and then the band showed up.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, what I did is I?
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Finally I made.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Uh, I was trying to see who I could connect with, who can I network with?
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: I'm 16 I'm 16, okay, so I'm a kid.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I said, hey, you need help, I'm here with my dad.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: He's got the you know I'm, I'm with the band, kind of thing.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: My dad's got the generator and whatnot.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: And so I finally got the drum tech, took me under his wing and said, sure, come on.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: And so I'm cleaning Heineken off, all of Alex Van Halen's drums, you know from the rehearsals and stuff, and getting all that crap off of there.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: And so I helped the drum tech.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't get to help the guitar tech, that would have been really cool, but whatever, I was happy just to be there, yeah, and so that's all there.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And then the band shows up about 3 pm and yeah, here's one, it's all this, and they're here and okay, there's the guys you know.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: And then I'm standing out and kind of on the stage there and all of a sudden really loud, like loud, whatever you're thinking, think about maybe five times that, yeah, and I'm thinking something's wrong, something's wrong going on.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So I look to a guy, I go what's that?
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And he goes Marshall and this, all of a sudden Eddie's playing, which was ten times louder than what the white noise was that I was hearing.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: It was the gain from the end.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Wow, and you couldn't have that.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: We did that at church and that kind of thing came out Somebody goes, they'd be calling in emergency teams, it was that loud on that.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And then I saw them do this rehearsal, which was David Lee Roth riding around on his skateboard out in front because they hadn't put all the chairs down yet, and he's riding around with his wireless microphone and he would start the first line of something and they'd do this and they'd sing their harmonies and he would tell the sound guy in front of the house alright, do this, do that.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And first time I ever seen harmonizers I didn't know what they were even tied, yeah, nine tens, yeah, and things like that and it just sounded.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: What's a harmonizer?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, a harmonizer is, um, it's, it's a piece of line gear that you use in a sound system or a guitar system that changes pitch, sometimes micro pitches, sometimes bigger ones.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: So I think what they were doing that was the fat up the vocals, gotcha, um, so they were using that.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: So it's very early, very, very early outboard gear, because this is late 70s, early, early 79, everything was big and heavy and lots of it so I um, anyway, I'll wrap this story up.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: The cool thing was is my job for during the gig.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: As I was on stage, I was to guard michael anthony's bases so they wouldn't go away, so I got to stand on the stage for the whole concert.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: The fabulous pool showed up in the station wagon, yeah, yeah.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Well, there we go and everybody's throwing carton, mill cartons and things at them because they're wave guys.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And your sister missed out on the whole thing.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, my sister cried.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: That's funny, she, she, when we called her, told her she started crying.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: But you know, there's a lot of awesome stuff.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: There's where God gave me so many amazing opportunities to nothing that I did.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: It wasn't because of me or anything, it was just like okay, here's this incredible opportunity, sure, and there I am.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Let's go back and talk about God.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: So when did you become a Christian?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: You mentioned a couple times that's how we met.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: It's still active in your world.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when did you become a Christian?
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Tell me about that and that transition how that happened, good.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: So my grandmother was a very strong believer and she would take me to church.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: And you know, when you're a kid, everything is normal because you don't know anything different.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: So I go in doing that.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I don't really have a connection to this.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I remember like trying to have some conversations with God but not really understanding much of that.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: So that's early childhood and then we go, go to church like a lot of American families.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: It's Easter, so you go to church, or it's Christmas Eve and you go to church, and it's those things.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: But I didn't really become a believer, a follower, christ follower, until I was 16.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: And that was very cool.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: That was my brother who went and got saved.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Somebody took him to this one church and then my brother said, hey, you got to come to this church.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: I said I've been to church.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: He says, no, no, no, this is different, this is not like the churches that we've been to.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I said, oh, yeah, and so, yeah, he talked me into coming and I went and he was right, it was very different.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Here were people that were on fire for Jesus.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: That's cool and that makes such a difference Totally.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: And you know, through that process, actually through my brother, my entire family became saved and became Christ followers.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Wow, all because of that and I have to ask him who brought him?
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I'll have to find that out.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: But that, 16 years of age, I'm two years into trying to be a rock and roll dude my hair's getting long.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I get Led Zeppelin and Kiss albums, and that's at the time when that wasn't very fashionable for Christians.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to be listening to rock and roll, and I did end up throwing some of my albums away and definitely regretted it later.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and bought those albums later, you know, and going through that, that was being at 16.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Then, as a result of that, being in Christian bands at 18 and doing that, that's a paradigm shift.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Actually, it's the whole thing.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: My life is going one direction.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: You meet Jesus and then, all of a sudden, it takes a different turn in that, even though I can see his hand on me prior to that experience and his sovereignty in it.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: That's cool, that's what that was.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: And so I guess the next landmark in that timeline would be at 24.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And that's when I've been at this point.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I've been trying to do music for 10 years, okay.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: So when I was 14 and I thought, oh yeah, by the time I'm in 20s 10 years, I'll, I'm, you know, if I'm not touring around and being what my dream is, I'll at least be making some kind of living in music.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: And I was not.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: No, it was pay to play in LA Wow, so you didn't make money, you.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: No, it was pay to play in LA Wow, so you didn't make money.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: It cost you really money to go and play.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: And I worked at some music stores, worked at a guitar center for a short time and other places I gave guitar lessons.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I would do those things and had a sound company with a buddy of mine and we'd make a few bucks here and there.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: But those were side hustles, they were never primary areas of revenue.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So when I got to be 24 and I've been playing these clubs we were supposed to open for guns and roses and they'd never open, so we just played the whole gig.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: So you had a guns and roses crowd.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Uh, I don't even know, it was such a weird thing.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I barely remember them.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I'm better than on that.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I actually even question.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Sometimes my memory says what's?
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: What's that really the deal?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: But I know it was like we were playing and it was a.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: It seemed like an off night, like a thursday or something, and I think they just didn't.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I didn't care.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I think maybe they did sound check, I don't know, but they just.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: It just never ended up happening.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: I had the guys from Def Leppard come and sit at my table after the Pyromania album and we were there to see was it Winger, not Winger.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: There was a band from Netherlands or something that had one hit and there was this young 18-year-old kid that was opening for them and he just tore that place up.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And that's when Joe Elliott and Phil Collin who, phil Collin?
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Just joined Def Leppard and they walked in.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: They had no place to sit and I had a couple seats at my table.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: That's so cool.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And they came and sat at our table too, dude the experiences you had growing up in that area and putting yourself in that position.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're legendary stories, they're awesome.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they are, you look at it.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And some of those people became really famous afterwards, or some of them were famous at that time.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: And then Rudy Sarzo, who used to be in Quiet Riot, who was touring, maybe with Ozzy.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Then he came and took Joe and Phil from my table.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, you're going to go beat with the other famous guys.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: But the 18-year-old dude who was tearing it up that was Yngwie Malstein's first performance in the United States.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Do you know who he is?
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: I don't Tell me.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: He is a guitar virtuoso from Sweden and he's like, if you think, like the most flamboyant, exquisite concert violinist and all of that.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: He's that, but on a guitar.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: And he was just.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: He just tore the place up.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: In fact, by the time the other band is I can't think of the name of it was like in slow motion.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm sure they hated following him.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so at 24, you were saying something earlier about your singer leaving the band, and that was a pivotal moment.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: What happened then?
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: We didn't get into it.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know the story, so tell me the story there.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for bringing me back on that, because that one is like a next major deal and I know you said that happened and then there was like a 10-year hiatus.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Walk me through that.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I've been doing music for 10 years, trying to do everything.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I got to be 24, and the singer in my band decided nah, I'm leaving another one of the singers who thinks that he's too good or whatnot.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Singers, that's the way they all are.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's all about them and I thought I'm starting over again.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: We're starting over again.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I'm 24, and I think my life is half over because I'm 24.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Right, of course I'm 24, and I'm starting over again.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I thought I'm not making a living in this and also I've been watching other bands make it around us.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like Rat was a band that was playing clubs the same time we were, and then they got signed and I went really the rodent band.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: The rodent band got signed.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: They did have a couple cool songs.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: The one that really tripped me out was actually Motley Crue, because they were all about goat heads and pentagrams and it was all this like satanic stuff.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Were you guys playing the same circuits?
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: We played the same clubs.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: We didn't play the same gigs.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, our crowd would not be a Motley Crue crowd, but they were like you know I don't know if they're doing seances out there, ouija boards or something, it was just that's what they were all about.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: That was their whole image.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I heard they got signed and I went what, what?
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Middle America is never going to accept these guys.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Who's going to do the satanic dudes?
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: They're never going to make it.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Somebody went there and cleaned those guys up.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: They got all glam and they wrote some pretty good songs.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I was totally wrong, because they changed everything and were very successful.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: But I kept seeing that and I was going.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: You know, this is not a predictable trajectory for a career.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Sure, you cannot control this.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: It's so much luck of the draw and so many other things.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: So I got scared.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I thought I could be 50 years old and only know how to play guitar.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: And so now I'm playing, like the Blue Room at the Ramada Inn, singing Feelings, and if you know that song, then you can tell how old I am.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: If you're doing these songs, like you know, for your dinner, you're playing for your dinner thing, and this is how you make a living.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Well, I got scared, so I had a really serious talk with the Lord.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I thought I may have my ladder up against the wrong wall.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I said, lord, what do you want me to do?
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: What is my mission?
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: If you have something else different that you want me to do, I will put all this on the altar and I will walk away from it, but please don't let me end up at the Ramada Inn.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be that guy.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: It was a very sincere.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I think I'd had similar prayers, but that's the first time I was so spot on, sincere with God on it and I didn't realize it.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: But right after that everything started changing.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I didn't see it till much later.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I run across this magazine issue one of a magazine behind the scenes movie making thing and talking about the movie Alien, and I'm reading about how the facehugger if you guys know the movie John Hurt, famous actor he got this massive-looking scorpion thing on his face which puts him into a coma and these things happened and I just thought they were brilliant.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I thought these are really.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: They look anatomically correct.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: This looks like something that could have lived in prehistoric times or something Very plausible, and I was intrigued by that.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: So I thought I wonder if I can make that, because I was reading a little bit how they made it.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: It was very brief in the description.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: So I went to the craft store, got clay and plaster and things and I fumbled around and into seven weeks I had like a crude version of what that was and that was a game changer, wow.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: So what happened?
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: next, Somebody offered to buy it.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: So I was taking it down to Westwood.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: I was partying in the crowds like the Red Sea.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: They see me walking with this thing.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Everybody's backing off what the heck man?
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Crowds like the red sea.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: They see me walking with this thing.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Everybody's backing off like what the heck man.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: And um, and some guy offered me good money for it which was good money for me, because I think I'm like working at 7-eleven or something and he's offered me like a week's pay or something.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: I said I won't sell you this one because this one has sentimental value.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I'll make you another one.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: It'd be so much better than this.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And then I I did.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And then Halloween's coming, so I'm thinking maybe I can take the same skills, Maybe I can, you know, sculpt and clay.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe I can make some like prosthetic makeups and take those same things and do some fun stuff for Halloween.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: So I thought I want to make a Planet of the Apes makeup.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: But those materials were expensive because they were in bulk and I didn't have that kind of money.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: So I did a primitive caveman version of crowdfunding.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I went to all my friends and said, hey, you give me some money and I'll make you a custom makeup.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: So I pulled this money together to be able to buy these supplies and then I did it these are really funky makeups that had photos and then I would go around.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I thought the guys that do this for the movies, they probably make decent money and it's way better than my day job.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: So I thought, while I'm waiting for my music ship to arrive, maybe I can do this, and so I would network.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I would always have my little photos with me and then I would go around to kind of seek out these places that were makeup effect shops where they would and they're like industrial units where they're doing it, and a lot of times they have the doors up because it's hot in LA as they're working, and I could kind of go up and chat up hey, what are you making there that looks pretty cool?
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: And talk them up a little bit and then say you know I'm kind of doing some stuff, Can you, can you look at my pictures and maybe give me some pointers?
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, like you are kind of doing some of this stuff, and they would look at it and then tell me what I'm doing wrong and better ways to do things.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: So I kept harassing people long enough.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Eventually, I got a job in a little shop doing everything that people, nobody else wanted to do the sweeping sweeping of the floors, the cleaning out the shark mold, pulling the clay out of it and all these things.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: But that was a game changer because I was able.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: I had a job doing it, and how old were you when you stepped into that role?
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: I think I was 24.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, I think I was still 24 on that, maybe 25, but I think I was 24.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Once you get your first job, then you have some credibility.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: It's not like I want to be this, oh, I've done this and now I'm looking for my next gig and so I would work.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I would get the occasional job where I could get in and go do that, and the rest of the time I'm just picking up some work on the side of the other things I'm doing.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: But eventually I was able to meet.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I was able to get into NBC studios and take over their little itty bitty closet of a prosthetic lab so I could, like make some things.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: So they didn't know how to do that stuff.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Then, uh, you know, cause they were doing all these like soap operas and talk shows and things.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: So they didn't know that kind of work and they said, okay, well, show us how to do things you're doing and we'll teach you beauty makeup.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: So that changed a lot because I learned how to be like like a full service makeup artist.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: So I was working on tonight show and um, tonight show with.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Well, in the beginning it was with johnny carson and it's the very, very end of johnny carson's run.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: And then I would always know when jay leno was coming to guest house, because there'd be some crazy car parked next to the stage.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, uh, so that would be cool.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, there's a lamborghini.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, that means jay's here tonight.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Uh, so I would do that.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: And you know, uh, dick clark was doing this thing called super bloopers and Practical Jokes.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: It was like a variety show thing and they would have me make some things for that.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: So it was good, made me more world-rounded.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: But you know, getting in fully into the union was always that's always a tough thing to do, but I was.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: It was at the time when the star trek was running next generation, that that show was happening.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: There was a tv show called alien nation, I don't know if you remember that I don't it was based off of a movie james conn was in, but there was a tv show and so between those two shows they were sucking up all the people that knew how to do prosthetics so they they would run out of folks and that's when I could step in.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: So I was able to work on that and eventually get enough days between those two shows and the other things Star Trek yeah, star Trek, alienation and my Two Dads and other things I was able to get in on and then finally I was able to be in the union.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: First feature film I worked on was Star Trek VI, actually Undiscovered Country, oh wow.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Which was great, because that was my favorite TV show as a kid was Star Trek.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: So now you're getting to work on it and do your makeup, and what started with nothing, that was pretty awesome.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: When you get to do stuff that's like from your childhood, those are usually high watermarks.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: If you get to work with an artist I know that you're big on Garth Brooks If you get to do something with him.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: That would be so much meaning for you Totally, or to do something with the Eagles or Don Henley.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: It would be pretty freaking awesome.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Garth, if you're watching this, have me on your show, have me out there with you.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I want to play drums for you.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: So I got into um.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: I went about the same time.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: I got married to my first wife and and I was trying to make a go over young, young folks trying to make it go like everybody else does.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: But I was starting to work on Star Trek and that was pretty cool.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I was able to embrace into different things pretty quickly.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I was a young guy that was really pursuing a lot of the more advanced techniques and whatnot.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: So what are some of the other shows you worked on besides the Alienation?
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Star Trek Tonight Show, jay Leno, johnny carson the list is going on and on.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Give me the and music be discography.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Give me your uh rundown I'll try to do what they are.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: There's like there's so many things I go oh that's right, I worked on that, forget.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: But uh, you know there was all kinds of movies patriot games I worked on, worked on.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I did Young Riders we did that in Tucson Arizona Western things that was my Western film.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I got to do Nice TV show with Josh Brolin.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Actually it became a big deal and I did a lot of different TV shows and then I would also go do movies in between, especially when the TV show would be on hiatus so I could do those.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I did a Bruce Willis movie.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I worked on Congo with Stan Winston's crew for a day.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: I did several movies on Arnold Schwarzenegger.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I blanked on his name for a minute and that was really cool.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: My friend, jeff Don, was doing all of Arnold's movies at that time.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: So I did Last Action Hero, we did Eraser, we did some design stuff for him when Arnold was in Mr Freeze and the Batman thing and you know all kinds of movies that were Grinch.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Grinch also.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody knows the Grinch.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: That's fairly popular or in fairly recent.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: What was your role in the Grinch?
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: What did you do there?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I was a makeup artist.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: I was there working for Rick Baker, major Oscar winner, who you know designed the film, and I was one of a number of people.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: They had a really large makeup crew and at that time was one of a number of people.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: It had a really large makeup crew Wow, at that time it was the largest.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: When we did it we were the largest makeup crew in history on a film Wow.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: There's other ones that have surpassed it since, but that was cool because I was already.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: What I had done which we didn't talk about is I created this side business doing a magazine called Makeup Artist Magazine.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I was also starting to produce a trade show called IMATS, which was the International Makeup Artist Trade Show.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: So I had this significant side hustle that was starting to go.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: So it was nice I could go do the Grinch.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: I could do that in the mornings go get my makeups done and then have lunch and then we'd do after-lunch touch-ups on the makeups, because that's always hard on the makeup and talent and zeat and you've got some things sticking out and get them all done.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: And then they would let me go and I could go to the office and try to run my other game Because they all had buy-in Rick Baker.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: He was on the cover of Issue 2.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: He's been on the cover more than anybody else ever had on the magazine.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: So they cared that I was doing what I was doing so they ran interference for me.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Pirates of the Caribbean I worked on that a few days.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I wish I would have worked on it more actually.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: So when you're doing these shows and you're doing makeup, do you have a character that you stay with and work on all the time, or do you bounce around, or a little bit of both?
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: How does that work?
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Everything under the sun.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, they're all different.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: It depends on the film, it depends on the day.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Are you doing somebody that's the main actor, or are you doing somebody that's in the background, that you probably will never know, and everything in between.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: It's whatever is needed to tell the story.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: What was your in your Hollywood makeup artist days?
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: What was your highest point that you like?
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: The pinnacle.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: If you're looking back, there's the pinnacle.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: There's different ways you can measure that.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Like, I get that question a lot Like what was the coolest thing you worked on?
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Well, the coolest thing you worked on, the coolest thing you worked on is not necessarily the thing that people know about the most.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: You can work on something that's really famous and it was a hell shoot.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: You can also work on something that everybody goes what that was the coolest thing you ever worked on?
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: The perception of what it is when you're working on it is very different than the perception of watching it, being the viewer.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Those are very, very different.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: But I'll give you one.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: I think that kind of works with what you have.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I was climbing the ladder, I was working with all the right people and like working with Jeff was really great because here he's on some of the biggest films in Hollywood, biggest budgets are these Arnold Schwarzenegger movies of the 90s, and so I'm doing that.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: And then the guy that was his second in command.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: He would go do films and he would ask me to come be his second.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: So that's cool, it's kind of moving up that way.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: And then Jeff ask me to come be his second.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: So that's cool, it's kind of moving up that way and then Jeff asked me to be.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Who is Jeff?
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Sorry, jeff Don, he was the guy I spoke about earlier.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Who does Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, yep, I'm with you.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Like when we did Jingle All the Way yeah, it was that one he had me be second unit.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: He had me be second unit.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I was department head of makeup for second unit and second unit is huge on an Arnold film Because second unit means you don't have the principal actors.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: That means that's all the stunt doubles, all the stunts that are being done, all the secondary actors and all of that.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: That's huge.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: In fact, second unit is bigger than a lot of other movies, wow.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: So you know I'm doing those things.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: It was great.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: It got to me when I had the second issue of the magazine where I had to turn down Jim Caley.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: He wanted me to come be a second on a film in Mexico and I just couldn't.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I was like ah, ah, the magazine thing is a single and I couldn't drop to go do that and I had to turn it down.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: It's one of those points where you have to make that decision which direction are you going?
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: So I was going to ask you.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: My next follow-up question to that was going to be tell me your lowest point.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Would that be one of your lowest points?
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: No, what was your lowest point in Hollywood with the makeup industry?
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Wow, no one's asked me, that one there we go.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: We talk about low points.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: They all know about my low points.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Well, there's lots of low points because, as an artist, an artist has these insecurities anyway and we haven't even talked about that, whereas I have people a lot of times.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: They see my boldness and I am a bold person, but I also have a lot of insecurities and luckily the boldness it keeps the insecurity in check.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Otherwise I'd just be in a corner and not achieve anything.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: But boldness helps with that.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: But artists have that anyway.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: So, even doing a makeup, you go through and you go, oh, okay, this is gonna be great, it's gonna be great.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: And you and you start doing I think I'm doing a song like this, the playing live could be like this um, you're getting going into makeup, okay looks good.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: And it's like oh, uh-oh, no, no, no, it's going the wrong way, and all this kind of sucks and I'm not good and I'm I'm, I'm a fraud, I can't really do this, and oh, what's it gonna be?
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: And I'm not good and I'm a fraud, I can't really do this, and oh, what's it going to be.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: And they're like okay, there, we go All right, and okay, good, it's not bad.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: And then you go, yeah, this is looking good, now it's looking good, and then you go, yeah, yeah, look at that man.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: I am all that in a bag of chips and you go through this, this roller coaster of thinking that you're amazing and that you are not worthy, and you suck, and all that can happen within a makeup, much less the the career.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: If I try to think of when the low points are, it's there was a film.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: I quit a film because what was going on?
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: There were some weird things happening and I did not control that one very well.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: I hadn't been in the business long enough to know how to really handle that and that was.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: That was a really hard one.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: That was one where I finally got to the point.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: That was a really hard one.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: That was one where I finally got to the point where I can't handle these people and I just quit, and you're not supposed to do that.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I made a mistake.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: How long had you been in the?
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: business at that point.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: I've been in the business for a bit, but to be in those it's one thing.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: When you are, if you're leading a job I mean think about that Like when we go do those weddings and whatnot you're the point of the spear from our department, so to speak, I'm with you, and it's another thing.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: It's one thing when somebody else is the point of the spear and then you're being a part of it.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: You haven't had to be the point of the spear because at the point of the spear you get a whole different pressure Totally, and what's going on?
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I hadn't had enough pressure test to have the tools and the experience to draw upon to be able to handle the situation that I was in, and so I folded Gotcha, and that was a little point.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: So back in my world, if I was in court, there's some things we can't talk about on the stand.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I may.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: It may be the glaring, obvious statement that needs to be made, or it may be the explanation that answers the question that everybody is beating around the bush about, but I'm not allowed to say it for different reasons.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Hearsay, whatever it may be, until the defense attorney asks me a question that relates to it and it's opening the door.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Then I can run through that door and I can get everything I need to say out until somebody tells me to be quiet.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: You opened a door a second ago, so I'm going to go through it.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about insecurities.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: What are your insecurities?
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: From the outside, we all have this persona that we got our, you know act together, our shit's tight and we just go through life.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: You know being bold and out there in the front, and you're a Hollywood makeup artist.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: You've got more.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: You can throw around more names than anybody else.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: I know Every person listening to this podcast has seen the Grinch in your, your work.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: They don't even know that you're behind the work on those, on those makeups, but you're there.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: You've uh, roadied for Van Halen.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: You have opened for Guns N' Roses and then took their concert.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: From the outside looking in, I mean you're a stud, but we know behind the scenes there's a lot of insecurities to make.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I'm insecure sitting here right now on this show, cause I know that camera's on me, um, and there's things I'm not happy with about my body and the way that I look and my head size and all that other crap.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Those are my insecurities.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: What are your insecurities that have kind of been lingering in the background?
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, there's so many, so many of what that is Like when I was a younger kid.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: It was being young.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I'm too young.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: I don't have credibility.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: I don't, I'm just a kid, so nobody's going to listen to me.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: I don't, I'm just a kid, so nobody's going to listen to me.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: So that can be an insecurity.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I to be able to anything that I was trying to do.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I just felt like I felt like everything was easier for everybody else and I really do believe that even still to this day, I have to work harder, I think, than most people to achieve things.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Anything I've done, whether it's makeup, it's guitar, it's anything that I've tried to achieve it's never been easy.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: I've had to fight and go until I everything to finally get that where the other guy goes, and then they're there.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: It's so much harder for me and so that part is hard for me.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: So there's times when I mean, here I've been nominated five times for an Emmy and I have two.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Some people go oh well, this guy is an expert, he knows what he's talking about.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Well, in one sense I am, but in another sense, no one knows everything.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: No one knows the entire thing.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: There's things I don't know the entire thing, there's things I don't know.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: There's things that I do.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: There's things I do well, there's things I don't do well, and that can be as a player or artistry or whatever.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: But if something that is exploiting my weaknesses and I can't bring my strengths to bear, then I'm operating in weakness.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Do you find yourself wanting to quit in those moments?
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: You quit when the pressure was too high because you hadn't been pressure tested.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: Now you're having something exploiting your weaknesses.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: You can't compensate with your positives and your strengths.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Do you find yourself wanting to quit in those moments?
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: And have you ever quit besides that time we spoke about, because of that issue?
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: I think I did that on the film, because one of the triggers everybody has triggers things.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: It's like things are going to get you goat.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: What was it with Michael J Fox on Back to the Future?
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Is he a chicken?
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: I think that was the thing.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: They used that as the trigger.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: So one of my triggers is if somebody's sliding me or looking down their nose at me or they're trying to play a game on me, like you're trying to scam me or something like that, that can really trigger me.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: In fact it happened to me just a few days ago.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: I hate that because I'm always trying to get past that and not let that guy control my life.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: And there's times when it does and it's like sucks because I've grown so much and have so many more tools.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: But every once in a while that guy will rear his head.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: In fact, thompson talks about that in Verbal Judo in the book.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I like how he talks about that guy.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: Yep, and there are those for me.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Somebody will slight me and try to do that and then make me and then I can get started.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: In fact, today it even happened.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: I had a thing where I had a meeting with somebody.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: I went and showed up on time to the meeting and they weren't prepared for the meeting.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: They were totally distracted.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: They were working at a restaurant and we were supposed to have a sit-down meeting.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: She never did.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: She would talk to me for a second and then go take care of some makeup and it's like, okay, I'm chopped liver.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, we can't have a proper conversation.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: And there's that guy in me that's going screw this.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Just screw this, yeah, screw this, just screw this, yeah.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: So you live now Pacific Northwest, which is a long ways from Hollywood, california.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: How did you end up moving here to the Pacific Northwest?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: What drew you here?
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: What brought you here?
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: I know you were married.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Uh, you've got some kids.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about how you got here.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: And then I want to talk about the loss of identity through your company and cause that is going to resonate with me, uh, the loss of identity and then kind of starting your new life with where you are today yep, um, I said earlier, I got married and my wife was originally from eugene, oregon.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: She had come down to la and was trying to make it in music and I met her and we were two young people kind of fumbling around just trying to try and make a go of life, and found each other and we got married and and I went, as we were dating, I said I know you're from, you know like Oregon, but we're getting serious now and so I need to tell you that I'm never moving away from LA.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: You know, this is what I do.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: I'm doing the makeup thing, the music thing.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm not moving there.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: So we need to have that out in the open and know that it was all right.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: And so we get married.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: And then we were trying to think how many years?
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Well, we would come up once a year to come visit her folks in Eugene.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: So we would drive up, do our road trip, her and I would come up, and they didn't even live in Eugene.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: They lived a half an hour outside of Eugene, out in the country.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: So I'm a city boy, so I go out in this thing and it's like watching paint dry for a week.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like watching paint dry for a week, yeah.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: So I would break up the monotony of that by taking a day trip up to Portland.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: So we're out for a week, in the middle of it I'll go to Portland and you know, do things, go find stuff, get a city refresh, yeah, and you know, go find things.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: Like one time I'm trying to buy a scanner, scanner, and there are no scanners in Eugene, maybe they got some in Portland.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: These day trips to Portland were really important Right away.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: I find, wow, the greatest bookstore in the whole world is in Portland, Oregon.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: There's this Powell's bookstore.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: It's a four-store.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: This thing is amazing.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: There's this bookstore.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Then I find this great video store, because back then we rented videos.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: A movie madness that had this really cool it was in Portland.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: They have movies that nobody else does and all these things.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: That's really cool.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: And then I discovered the best pizza place in the world was in Portland.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: It was Flying Pie Pizzeria.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and that was.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Kind of a funny story about Flying Pie.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole other story.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: I keep telling stories all day.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: So I found that and so it's like, over the years I kept collecting these places, like, oh, that's a good place, that's a good place, and adding it to my repertoire of what Portland was.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: And then, when my son was born, my second child and I was going to do my day trip, my in-laws who were fabulous people and still are they said why don't you leave the kids with us and you guys get a night away?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, because they're that kind of great humans.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: And I had never seen Portland at night, because when the sun was starting to go down, that was usually my cue to head south to Eugene.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: So we stayed the night.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: We stayed at the Benson Hotel over on Broadway, which was built in 1912, same year as Titanic.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: So it was really cool, had a great steak dinner and I saw Portland at night.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: I'm going, wow, what a great city, this is a really charming city at night.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I'm going, wow, what a great city, this is a really charming city at night, and all that.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: So when I drove away the next morning, as we headed back for Eugene, I said to my then wife I said you know what?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Portland's a city you can live in.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: It's got all these things.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: It's got an international airport and, unbeknownst to me, she had been praying airport and, unbeknownst to me, she had been praying asking for god to do something so that she could come back to the pacific northwest.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: She didn't say anything to me because of you're tied to la well, because we established in the beginning that it wasn't going to happen.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: And when I said that, she just lit up and and there's this um could take a whole week to a whole podcast just on how that transition.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: But we want, but I.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: That's the time that I saw God's hand moving in real time.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: Usually, when I see God's done something, I see it in hindsight and go that's what you did, oh, that's what you did.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: This time I had a front row seat and I was watching it happen Him make all the changes to move us north.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: There's never been another time in my life like that that's cool cool before or since.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: It was really, really something.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: And so in 2004, we moved north and so I've been here for 20 years now wow.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: And then eventually you had kids.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Kids grew up um over in the van area and eventually you got divorced.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: What year did you get divorced?
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: I think we split in 2018, and all this happens like leading up to there was like the perfect storm that was starting to happen Trade shows, because now I'm not really doing makeup hardly very, very, very rarely.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: All my income comes from the magazine and the trade shows.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: And at the end I think it was the very end of 2017, is that the first time we saw a show that was like, oh, our numbers, what happened?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: Our numbers were off.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: It wasn't quite right.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: So we looked at that and we thought, okay, we can probably.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's the first time we did it this date in the calendar.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay, we'll move it back to where it should be.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: And then the next show was slightly off and we thought, oh, it was that.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until like three, four shows.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: In that we realized there's a pattern here.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: Numbers are dropping.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: I'm doing six shows a year around the world.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: I'm doing New York, I'm doing LA, I'm doing Sydney, australia.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: I'm doing Toronto, canada.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: I'm doing Vancouver, canada, and I probably left one out.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: But you know we're.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Were you in England at that time or no?
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: No, that wasn't the England show at that time.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, it was the first show that went soft was Toronto.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's like, hmm, and my marriage had been going downhill for a while.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: It was never really great, it was a hard marriage and it only lasted as long as it did, because both of us really hate divorce.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we just like, let's figure this out.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: There's times when I would be strong and rally and there's times I'm being weak and she'd be strong and rally, but we were holding it together sure, but, um, and you mentioned a time where there's some stress manifestation going on.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, they got really really hard for you and you said it was the first time you felt that physical manifestation of stress which reminds me of my situation ultimately being hospitalized with these, you know stroke-like symptoms, and when you were talking to me it really resonated with me.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about that.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was around 2007.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: What magazine publishers that have single titles do you think?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, I know how to do this, I'm successful at it and I have an art department, I have an editorial department, I've got this infrastructure to publish magazines.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: So you're thinking, well, you're publishing one, how hard can it be to publish two?
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: You already got people to do it, kind of.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: So I started a second magazine and I tried to make a consumer magazine and it was more expensive to do, a lot more expensive to do, a lot more expensive to do, because we had to do photo shoots and there's other things that we were doing.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: I was pretty excited about it and I was convinced it was going to be the big deal.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: And I was wrong.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: I was wrong and there was all this lead up to it.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: I was at the cusp where I had the contract on my desk to sign for this distribution deal that we would have had to really ramp up our printing to be in all these grocery stores and all these bookstores, all the Barnes Nobles, all the Borders, everything was out there.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: We would have had to spend all that money for all the magazines.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: But I can't break down the.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: It would take too long to explain the insanity of magazine publishing, but we would have had to put out all this money and we would have been liable for all of it, and I ultimately backed off.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: This is not working and it was tough because we put all the money out to do it, made the mistake of creating a lot of expense before you have the revenue.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: And I got really worried.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: I thought I could lose my house, I could lose all the financial assets that I have, and I felt it all crushing down, and I would.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: I was in panic mode.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: We only had two shows a year that we were doing at that time.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: But I would wake up in the night and the second I would wake up also, bam, the heat would hit me.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: It would hit me in the small of my back, the back of my neck Also.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: It was like on fire and I was immediately sweating like a sprinkler.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: My body was just manifesting all this stress and I'd have to get out of the bed because I'm starting to soak the bed and I'm on fire and I couldn't sleep and that's the worst stress I've ever experienced in my life.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: And so what we did is I took a serious look at it and going okay, I've got to get rid of this other magazine thing, we're not doing anything with that.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Where do we make money?
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not really a money-driven guy.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: I never have been.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: Luckily, the things I do have been enough to carry it.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: But that was a moment where I go alright, where do we make money?
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Well, see, there's the magazine, my other magazine, but the trade shows are really making the money.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: Alright, we need to do more of these, reinvest in that, and so that's when we started adding shows and we did that and it got us out of the hole so then, eventually, that all leads to your separation divorce yeah, and the trade shows going down and all that.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: So I'm getting the double whammy.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: Now we're into covid.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's about ready to hit that.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: That's the triple whammy.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: But if we start with the double whammy it's like where the the wet, uh, the honeymoon's over and that's like we're going to have to.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: I was trying.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: Did you ever see the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise yes, like the one movie I've ever seen.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, I saw it, that and Dumb and Dumber.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: Well, that movie, if you guys have not seen it, it's where they have these people who can kind of thought police, who can see the future sort of thing, and then they try to prevent crimes before they happen with these people, these like savants who are able to see that.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: And then they saw the thing that Tom Cruise, the lead actor, saw him committing a homicide and he's like what the heck?
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: I don't even know this guy and then he runs and he's trying to.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: The last thing that Tom Cruise's character wants to do is be anywhere near this guy.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: And then he runs and he's trying to.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: The last thing that Tom Cruise's character wants to do is be anywhere near this guy that he supposedly kills, who doesn't even have any idea who he is.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: So he's trying to avoid that like the plague, right.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: But eventually he comes to this precipice where he's right in front of this guy and the moment has been created.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: It's like damn, he wanted to avoid that.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: And that's the way I was feeling about divorce.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: It's like I don't want to get divorced.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: I don't want to get divorced.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: I'm in my 50s now.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: I don't want to press the reset button.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: And we got to the place and there's the reset button and had to be had to be pressed, and that was, um, I mean, that's, you know anybody, getting divorced is a big deal when you have 30 years of marriage.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's quite the investment that you're, you're tanking.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: And then my business is doing a thing.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, that caused, uh, here, here's all the stress again.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to re.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that caused a.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: Here, here's all the stress again.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to re.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: My, my life is starting over.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: What are we doing, lord?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: What, what, what's going on?
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: And so that was one of the the greatest valleys of my life.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: I was worried that I thought, wow, companies all slowing down all of this.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: And then the COVID thing goes we produce trade shows.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: It's not illegal to produce, have an in-person event.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: I cannot function, I can't work.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I thought, what are we going to do?
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: There's still all these bills to pay.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: And he got to this place where I'm going, am I going to become homeless?
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: Am I going to have to sleep in the car, live in the car?
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: I really get worried at a point.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: It's like you know, as I move out of my house because I'm having to sell it, because I'm getting divorced and eventually I have to sell my building that I have for my business to be able to pay those bills, to see all of that coming down.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: It was stripping everything from me of what I do and that was super hard.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: But the upside of that is one really amazing season of seeking the Lord.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: I would go out and do these walks around my building.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: I would just have to get out from behind my desk.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: It's like there's this thing and it's like I can only do so much and I'd take a break from that and go out and I would go walk with the Lord.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: I would walk and talk to him.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: I was singing praise songs to him that I knew from when I was a teenager and do that it was.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: They were cries of desperation to my God and you, you know, you knew me through that part of it.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: You saw me how affected I was by it and that's what I was just going to say.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: So, for the listener's point of view and for those folks out there, double down was established in 2018.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: It was established as a duo.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: One year later, we got asked to put together a five-piece band and during that I had the privilege of working with some amazing musicians at the local churches.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: My lips aren't moving with my voice and it's annoying.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping in post that it all pans out.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: We'll sync it up, if not, it's no big deal.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: So, anyway, I got to put those five people together to build that five-piece band.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Michael Key was one of them and it was such a privilege to play with this guy because I played with him hundreds of times at church.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: But now we're getting to play outside of church, kind of like his whole journey from, you know, his, his, uh, earlier years.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: So we're going to play outside of church, but that's about the time that he's hidden, hitting the you know, climax of this low point.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: And, uh, I saw the desperation, I saw the darkness.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: Uh, I feared for him because I had known him for a long, long time.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: But I had seen myself in that same place and I know where I went in that place.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't to God, uh, it was to the woods with a gun.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: And there was a period of time there where I was very worried about him.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: And he would come to these practices and play music and he would walk in completely defeated, uh, and he would leave with a little bit of hope and inspiration, and I remember it was in.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: From my perspective it was a positive thing, um, and then we got past it, just like every bump in the road, you know, and unbeknownst to me, he's praying.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: But, um, you know, we get past that and then we start playing out and all of a sudden I start to see him brighten up a little bit and there's women coming to see him play and uh, they're showing up, and these women are showing up in droves to see Hollywood do his thing and I'm like, what are we doing here?
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: Uh, and then this one showed up, her name was Gail.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: And then this one showed up, her name was gail and, uh, she was different than the rest and she's got this little squeaky sneeze.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: Um, and gail showed up and gail's still around.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: Tell me about gail.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that one thing for the correction of that.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: It's like when you started, when you got out of the cover band that you had going and you're I knew you weren't happy with that and you were putting one together you asked me to be in a band, like, let's put something together.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I told you that I couldn't at that time because I was, um, you know my previous wife uh, we're having hard times and she didn't want me to do anything like that, so, so I had to say no.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, it was actually when we got to play for you guys.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: It ended up being this coincidence, maybe not that the last Christmas party I threw for my company that we did at Salud, and it just so happened you guys were booked, yeah, and so then he said why don't you come play?
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: I said, okay, I'll come play some.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: That was our first time.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: That was our first time playing outside of church.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Outside of church, yep.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: On that and go back to what your question was.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: So, gail, tell me about Gail.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: Let's get to Gail.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: There was the gig that was before Gail.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: That was the one time he got me to go play and I had two girls that I was kind of interested in on the matchcom and things like that and they both showed up at the same gig and that was interesting.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: But yes my, my lovely bride Gail yeah, she was.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: That was an awesome thing of God to bring us together and luckily he did that just pre-COVID, because dating during COVID was not successful for a lot of people and that would have been for me.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: So Gail comes around, and what I remember about Gail is she was a keeper because she likes to drink Moscato.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, she does Especially that first gig that she came to.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: So did we.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: So she was a keeper, but that's awesome.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: So, as far as I want to go all the way back to the beginning, before we wrap this up, let me touch that one thing.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: Gail, come into my life.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: We just celebrated our third anniversary.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: That's so cool, which is awesome, and we were dating for like two years before that.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: We were dating for like two years before that.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: It's something when you're on the other side of a great valley.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: When you're in the valley, you can't see outside of the valley because you're in it, you can't see what you're on.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, sure, like that In the Hobbit.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: They do that In Mirkwood.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: You know the book.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: They said they were in great despair when they got to the top of the trees to see and all they can see is forest and they didn't realize they were in.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: Anyway, there's, there's, there's my tolkien uh, metaphor for the one time they'll do on the show.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: But uh, yeah, that's the way that I was in that valley, couldn't see where it is, and it's awesome now to look back on this, this valley that I've gone through and I'm past that, and on the other side of it.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: I never could have had any vision that I would be at this place now and be, okay, I'm not living in my car, so cool.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: I never was homeless and God always did provide everything for me and I have this woman who loves me to death and is so good for me.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: That's so cool.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Going back to your first seven, eight, nine years, the tumultuous years, do you see those years having an effect on the rest of your life or do you feel you got past them?
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: Does that question make sense?
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about is my early childhood.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Your early childhood tumultuous.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: Bouncing around parents disconnected, living with grandparents.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: Bouncing around parents disconnected, living with grandparents, grandparents disconnected, moving, moving, moving.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: That was a tough time for you in your formidable years.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Has that been an effect on you throughout your life?
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: Have you seen kind of the jet trails of that there was?
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: for a time, because if you look at that, the first six years of public school, I'm in seven different schools, between moving in Texas and moving in California and all this.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: So I have no consistency at all of relationship.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Also, same thing about who's raising me.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: You know, which is my mom and dad, which I don't even remember that, and it's my grandparents, and then that splits.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: And so now I'm with my grandfather and dad, which I don't even remember that, and then it's my grandparents, and then that splits.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: And so now I'm with my grandfather and my uncle sometimes, and sometimes I'm with my grandmother, and then we move to Texas, then it's my grandmother and then my uncle comes up, all this stuff it's revolving door, musical chairs of who is parenting me through this, and so you know not that I saw all that pattern, but what it is.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: It meant that there was nobody that was always going to be there for me.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: That was kind of what I had in my head.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: It was not in the forefront of my mind.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: So it took me a while, I think to, after having long-term friendships, long-term with family members, to kind of get to a more healthy place on that.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: Because when you think it's all going to change.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: It's like that little girl Newt in Aliens Gosh I'm such a movie dude Everything's about an analogy in a movie.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: But the little girl Newt, where she's like, ah, it's all going to, you know, here comes the bad guys again.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: That's the way that she lives.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: She wasn't always to be ready to absolutely exit the door and so, um, I think that had a real effect on my relationships and it took me, uh, quite a while to get past that.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: I think there's that.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: I think there's.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: There's certainly things that that still affect me today that are from childhood.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I think some of them are positives.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: Um, some of them are negatives, but what I've tried to do is learn from those and then, like, get to a healthier place on it.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: I think that I have.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's as nearly as much as it was.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for to live in an age when we have so many resources, there's great books and there's also a guy who's put amazing people in my life to model what is healthy behavior.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: Well, man, I really appreciate you coming on the show.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: It's been good to get to know you.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: I've got to know you more in the last hour and 20 minutes, or whatever it is in the last decade that we've been together.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: Uh, this is so funny.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: I feel like this.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: I've done a lot of interviews throughout my life.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: This is the most leaf in the wind interview I've ever given so.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: I, I hopefully.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: I gave you what you need.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: You know it's totally good.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: This is like, uh, so doing years and years of police interviews and interrogations?
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, go to the interviews, not so much the interrogations.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: It's literally open-ended questions.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: Let them answer, hear what they're saying, find a point you circle back on, exploit it, start over.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: And that's what this interview has been.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: I thought about that coming over here and I thought, well, you haven't really oh, no, no, no, he has been doing some interview stuff.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: It'll be different context than that.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: It'll be different, yeah, if you were a criminal, you'd be confessing by now.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: So we'd be drinking together and having a good time, anyway.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: I'm totally blessed to have been playing with you for the last 10 years, blessed to have you a part of the band and you know it's our band and to have you on the show, your Hollywood makeup, your Hollywood music.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: You've been there, you've done that, and just thanks for sharing your story with me and all the listeners.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: Always man Cheers brother, my good friend.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: Cheers.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: You guys, thank you so much.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: Check us out.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: Next week we are going to have another great show lined up for you.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: And again, guys, you know, check out that at Murders to Music.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: Like I said, every week we're getting you know it sounds stupid, right, but for me it's big Tens and tens of more listeners and downloads.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: And we're all over the world.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: There's people listening from, you know, asia and Mexico and all these places that don't know anything about me, but yet they're finding something in this show.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: So just thank you, guys so much.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: Keep the downloads coming, keep the follows coming.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you, guys.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: Check out Instagram at Murders to Music.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: My name is Aaron.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: Streamline Events and Entertainment's my company.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: If you're in the Portland Oregon area, you want some live music, dj, sound and lighting production great.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: If you want to hear, get ahold of me.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: If you want to hear Mr Michael Key absolutely tear up the guitar, uh, double down, double down.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: Duocom.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: Cheers, peace.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time.