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A Pediatric Sleep Doctor On Baby Sleep Tech And Adult Sleep Truths · In Moderation

0:18
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Inmoderation, where Mike just showed off his amazing new lamp that he put together himself.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: I he I actually built it from the ground up.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: From the ground up.
0:27
SPEAKER_03: It's weird that it only shows the colors of the Soviet Union.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: I don't really know what's up with that.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: Are you just going full communist?
0:33
SPEAKER_03: Or I I'm just curious.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: I have shared custody of the lamp.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: I only get it half the week.
0:37
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: So then wait, hold on.
0:39
SPEAKER_03: I don't understand the reference here.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: So you get the so then you give it to someone else for because it's communist?
0:45
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: There we go.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: I was like, what?
0:48
SPEAKER_03: You just I just share a lamp with my ex.
0:51
SPEAKER_03: I give it to her.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: That's the end of the show for the day.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you all for joining us.
0:55
SPEAKER_03: Turn your lights off and go to sleep.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: We didn't get to give you any info.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: There was some sarcasm.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Definitely not approved.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: We usually don't give info anyway, so it's fine.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: No, not anymore.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: No.
1:07
SPEAKER_03: But we should give some info on our games.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Might give some info, maybe.
1:12
SPEAKER_03: I'll give you some info.
1:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:13
SPEAKER_03: What do you got for us?
1:14
SPEAKER_03: That's our that's our lead-in.
1:15
SPEAKER_03: Just what do you got for us?
1:16
SPEAKER_03: Just give us info.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: I got sleep.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm here to talk sleep.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Anything and everything, sleep.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: So you got some drugs?
1:23
SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
1:24
SPEAKER_01: No, no sleep.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't think sleep drugs.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: No sleep drugs, unfortunately.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: I can't give you that.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: But I'm happy to give you some sleep advice, some motivation, some science.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: You want some science today?
1:35
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'll I do like science.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: We can get science-y with the sleep stuff.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, first, tell us who you are and what you do for anybody that might not know.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: Tell Mike who you are.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Mike, yeah.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, tell me again.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: It's it's great to be back on the podcast.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm Sue J.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Consagra.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm a I'm a physician at Duke.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: I specialize in child neurology and sleep disorders and kids.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: And uh I am on social media as that sleep doc.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: And most recently, I've added uh inventor of the Lullaby smart crib mattress to my bio.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the summary.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Inventor?
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is news to me.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: What the hell?
2:11
SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm happy to tell you all about it.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a project we've been working on for about eight years at Duke, uh, trying to help kids sleep better through a uh through a technology.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: So it's a crib mattress, has technology embedded, knows when the kids awake and crying, produces output from a vibration sound from within the mattress, and then tracks the kids' historical sleep patterns and weans them off of it slowly when they're ready to become independent sleepers.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Support when they need weaning when they're doing well.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's the main goal.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Where was this technology two years ago when Oakley was born?
2:44
SPEAKER_03: I mean, she's still having trouble.
2:46
SPEAKER_03: But like that's really cool though.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: I like the I like the idea.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've been very excited about it for a long time, and it's finally ready for the real world after lots of testing and clinical trials and all that fun stuff.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: So it's got like little vibration things in the mattress, like it can like vibrate and like help the kid get back to sleep.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it looks like a completely normal critical.
3:05
SPEAKER_03: You go in there, you have to like rock them to sleep.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: It's all meant to be kind of automated.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: You don't need to parent pictures of it now.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have like a huge one that's sitting right here.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: I was kind of joking.
3:14
SPEAKER_03: I'd like to throw it in the that's the main purpose of technology, so we don't have to raise our kids ourselves and whatnot.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: Like, I know we're not gonna get to like that robot in the Jetsons anytime soon.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: There's no replacement for parenting, the lullaby can't change your child's diaper, it can't feed them.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's it's meant to be it's meant to be a helper, not a replacement for yet.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not not meant to replace parenting.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: We'll get there.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: It's meant to help parents like Liam who are up all night because their children won't sleep.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: That's the goal.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, kids that would be nice.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Kids hate the crib, right?
3:47
SPEAKER_01: One day kids hate the crib.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: We know it's the safest place for them.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And so the side motivation here was well, let's give families an option while still keeping them in their safe sleep environment when they're infants, that still helps them sleep.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, make the crib a place they like to go, not a place where they hate to go.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: Do you have anything for the bath?
4:02
SPEAKER_03: Because that's where Oakley is now, or she hates the bath.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: Do you have any like vibration plates or whatever for in the uh tub?
4:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, batteries and electricity in the tub usually don't mix very well.
4:12
SPEAKER_03: So we have to think about that.
4:14
SPEAKER_03: We haven't gone there yet.
4:16
SPEAKER_03: I'll just borrow Mike's communist lamp.
4:18
SPEAKER_03: It's fine.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: It's not the kind of sleep you're looking for.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: We I think we have a slot open on Sunday for you.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: So say the baby wakes up in the middle of the night, baby's screaming.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: So what does the mattress do?
4:28
SPEAKER_02: And what does the parent do?
4:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: So the mattress, it has built-in sensors, so it detects crying and movement.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: And if it's like, yeah, the kid's awake and crying, it automatically turns on.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: And it has different levels.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: It has like level one through ten of vibration and audio.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Families can choose a vibration pattern.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: We have one that mimics like a heartbeat.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: We have one that's just like a gentle buzz.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: We have one that's like a rolling up and down pattern.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: So they can choose and they can choose the audio output.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: So that output starts when the kid's awake and crying.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: It ramps up the longer the kid cries.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: When the kid stops crying, it holds it for two minutes.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: And as the kid's asleep, it slowly lowers it back down to zero.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: So for most of the night, it's doing nothing.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: It's only there giving the stimulation when the kid needs and then stopping when the kid doesn't need it.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: So we don't want something buzzing and shaking and you know the entire night for the kid, just when they need it.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Um but they kind of the unique thing is, you know, my goal, I'm kind of a purist when it comes to sleep.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: The sleep science tells us that if you can create independent sleepers, that's how they sleep best, not needing any of the bells and whistles and the extra stuff.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: And so the goal of the mattress is support them when they need and then wean them off of it when they're ready.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: So it does that automatically.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: No parent decision to make.
5:38
SPEAKER_03: Don't use your CPAP machine.
5:39
SPEAKER_03: You don't need it.
5:40
SPEAKER_03: Just go without it.
5:42
SPEAKER_03: Pure sleep, right?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: No, no, we're talking about babies and the need for external caregiver help.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Please use your CPAP.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, please use your CPAP.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: No CPAP is it anyway.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Why not just make it 100%?
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: It's tough.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, compliance.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: I need a shoe for a big boy version of this.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: That's what people tell me.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, I said let's work right when's the adult version coming.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the most common question that I get.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: It's not about the magic.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be the test of guinea pigs.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, happy to.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: If that ever happens, you guys will be first on the list to try it for sure.
6:17
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if we asked this last time, but what is sleep?
6:21
SPEAKER_03: Sleep, what would it be?
6:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:23
SPEAKER_03: It's explain it to me like I'm the baby that just got out of the crib or whatever.
6:27
SPEAKER_03: Like that's I don't need that anymore.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Sleep is a is a reversible state, so you know you can get out of it uh if you're doing it right.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: It's a reversible state of um perceptual disengagement.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: And not using batteries in the tub.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Not using batteries in the tub, decreased perception of your environment um that um that works as kind of like a flip-flop switch, right?
6:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's um and you have decreased responsiveness to that environment.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: So you're doing less, you're perceiving less, and it's a reversible state.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: That's essentially what sleep is.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: And we need it, you know, we need it for everything.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
7:00
SPEAKER_03: Why we need sleep?
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh why we need why we need mostly because you can form your sentences grammatically correctly when you sleep well, you know, and your cognitive functions uh work better when you sleep well.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh but shots fired.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: The question is becoming increasingly kind of uh harder to answer because we're learning so much more about why we sleep.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's important for body restoration, it's important for growth, it's important for uh long-term memory consolidation.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's essentially you know, just tuning up your supercomputer of your brain every night and making sure you're able to function well the next day.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: It clears out toxin, toxic proteins that have built up throughout the night, so uh or throughout your day.
7:42
SPEAKER_03: That's the main thing I remember.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
7:46
SPEAKER_03: From like uh going to school for sleep medicine was basically just like things build up, some yeah, toxic proteins, other things build up, and they can actually be eliminated during your sleep.
7:55
SPEAKER_03: Your brain waves slow down, and they're able to maybe go through, you know, they're able to do things they can't do when you're awake.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: That's like kind of the main thing I'm you're essentially scrubbing your brain cells clean while you sleep.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: That is certainly one of the many things that sleep does for your brain.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so give your brain a bath, get some sleep.
8:14
SPEAKER_03: My dumbed down version that I remember is there's like REM sleep.
8:17
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think most a lot of people have heard of it, rapid eye movement.
8:20
SPEAKER_03: And that is uh what I remember kind of like the dumb one I would tell patients like REM sleep, brain.
8:25
SPEAKER_03: Brain need REM sleep.
8:27
SPEAKER_03: Important.
8:27
SPEAKER_03: Non-REM sleep, body, body need that.
8:30
SPEAKER_03: Now, obviously, it's not as simple as that, but like to kind of like dumb it down and just make it simple.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I like that, you know.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: I I think REM sleep certainly is great for long-term memory consolidation and it helps the brain in various ways.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, all the other like non-REM sleep also we think is beneficial for the brain, but it's also the time where you secrete growth hormone.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Like the deepest non-REM sleep is when you secrete growth hormone, you know, and it's uh it's again sleep is like the this this performance-enhancing drug that people that's legal that people sometimes don't use.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so yeah, you need it for sure.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: I people would uh often say, like, oh yeah, REM sleep, that's when um that's like your deepest state of sleep, or your brain's, you know, like this this loop brain waves are the slowest.
9:14
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, no, that's actually it's like the opposite.
9:16
SPEAKER_03: Your brain is actually very active during REM sleep, which I always found very interesting.
9:21
SPEAKER_03: There's just a lot of shit going on.
9:22
SPEAKER_03: Your brain's like, no, we we're we're working over here.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and Liam, I know you're looking you're looking at EEGs at you know for these overnight studies, and you know, sometimes REM sleep, we can't even tell a difference between that and awake.
9:33
SPEAKER_03: You know, it can it can be really tough apart from the fact that you could look over and be like, oh, they're awake, and then you see their eyes darting around.
9:39
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
9:39
SPEAKER_03: And you're like, oh, they're sleeping.
9:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: And which explains why we oftentimes wake up out of REM sleep, just because it is a lighter stage of sleep.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: But I think we equate dreaming to like really good deep sleep.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: People are like, ah, I almost dreaming, so I must have been in really deep sleep.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: But not so.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: But no.
9:54
SPEAKER_03: But okay, have we learned anything about dreams in the past however many years?
9:59
SPEAKER_03: Because as far as I remember, it was just like, nah, it's like mind garbage stuff happens, whatever.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: That's that's still the leading theory.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: We think it's probably probably is a bunch of mind garbage, you know.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: We uh some people will say, well, could the themes within the dream reflect what's happening in your reality?
10:14
SPEAKER_01: It's true.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: We know that dream content may shift if you're particularly anxious.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: You may be having dreams of your teeth falling out or showing up at school naked.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we do think some of those themes or being chased by somebody, for example.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but overall, the random dream you had about seeing a bird and a rainbow, it's not foretelling any sort of like you know, future events or you know, giving you magic messages while you sleep, although people would love to believe that.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Have you guys ever had those types of dreams?
10:39
SPEAKER_03: You talk about that a lot.
10:40
SPEAKER_03: It's so much more fun to believe that like gem rocks have like powers, you know, you put them in the moonlight, and then that helps you sleep when that dream means something.
10:50
SPEAKER_03: Like, that's just so much more fun than like the science of it all.
10:53
SPEAKER_03: I kind of believe.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's it's fun to believe Reiki works, you know, like it's fun to believe lots of things, but you know, that's it's fun to believe all you know, it's fun to believe in chiropractic.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: So I suppose like the the concept of a dream catcher could actually be beneficial if the person believes in it because they would be more or less stressed going into sleep, being like, okay, there's this dream catcher.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not gonna have nightmares.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: I think that's fair, you know.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, it just comes down to not being stressed.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: The placebo effect works in weird and wonderful ways.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, no, I totally agree.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: I think having something that helps calm you down, you know, whether that be your magnesium glycinate or other things, you know, naturally may put you in a state that's more conducive to sleeping.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: That's what makes sleep so tricky.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: People are like, oh, I took this and I started better.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know if that was it or just the placebo.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: I love it.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: No, that's such a great that's what I would tell them.
11:47
SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, sure, whatever.
11:49
SPEAKER_03: Um, have we learned anything more about marijuana?
11:51
SPEAKER_03: Because what I always remember is that like because it was you know illegal, we couldn't really study it in terms of sleep, and now maybe because the laws are becoming a little bit more lax, are we able to learn anything more?
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some of the best studies in marijuana are from the 70s, surprise, surprise, where they're they're actually looking at THC, not CBD, but actually THC, uh, or actually just smoking marijuana.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: And they found that the con consistent effects are that it actually suppresses REM sleep, it suppresses dream sleep.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, there is some data that maybe it may help.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Similar to alcohol.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: That's right, that's right.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: That's right, yeah.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: So it'll it'll it'll suppress your REM sleep.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: And if you stop taking it, you do tend to have REM rebound where people are like, oh, I stopped smoking and have just these really weird, crazy dreams at nighttime.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh and that's all you know, your REM raging back, trying to trying to catch up what is lost.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's it's still the data's out regarding whether it can help with sleep onset and quality of sleep and folks that may have anxiety or other potential issues.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: But we're always hopeful for CBD.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: It's CBD just never has never panned out the way that we hoped it would.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: We loved trying it for seizures.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: It was like all the rage at one point.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And so in the pediatric epilepsy world, we're like, yeah, it looks like it's gonna work for seizures, and it's just been very underwhelming.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the highest.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: What about psilocybin?
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh I have I have never used that.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Have you used that?
13:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh, did I break them?
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I think I broke them.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I have I have no data on that at all.
13:14
unknown: Yeah.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Do you have some personal experience?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: I do.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I do have personal experience, yeah.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: Allegedly.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: It's it's uh it acts quite well for a um uh not even an antidepressant, anti-suicidal for me.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: And so that does bring down the anxiety levels.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know much about it when it comes to the anxiety.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: I would say my sleep quality, if I take too much, is definitely terrible.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: I'd have to look into the mechanism of that because I'm just not as familiar, but I I'm and definitely don't haven't heard of any data on it.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Some of the things, as you can imagine, are harder to test in a controlled way than other substances.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: Anxiety makes it more difficult for me to get to sleep.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: And I know in my experience with psilocybin, it just the decrease in stress and anxiety overall has helped me get to sleep and stay asleep a little bit longer.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: But again, that's it anecdotal.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: We don't have studies on that.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: Or I guess if you're not aware of it, then the rest of us, what's the chance to we stand?
14:18
SPEAKER_01: They may be out there.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, in the pediatric realm, we end up using some of these things much less often than they may consider them in the adult side.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, but anything, I mean, to your point, anything that's going to help with anxiety puts your brain into more sleep-induced, uh, you know, sleep-induced state.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: So you're more likely to have the neurochemistry that's appropriate for getting into sleep.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: If you're super anxious and your norepinephrine is high or your dopamine is high, um, those things will make it harder to get to bed, for sure.
14:45
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure we talked about this last time, but like I think this is, you know, of course, the main questions everybody's gonna ask.
14:52
SPEAKER_03: What helps induce a you know, a sleep state?
14:55
SPEAKER_03: What helps me, what helps me get to sleep?
14:57
SPEAKER_03: What are like the you know, the best tips for that, that sort of thing?
15:00
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure this a lot of people will be wondering.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I there's a lot of buckets to think about.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: If you think about it from like a just a pure sleep physiology standpoint, the you know, two main drivers.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: One is your sleep drive.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: The longer you're awake, the sleepier your brain gets because it's building up adenosine and various other metabolites uh while you're awake.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: And adenosine actually pushes your brain to feel sleepy.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: That's why if you're up for 48 hours, it's very hard to stay awake.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: If you're up for 72 hours, it's almost impossible to stay awake.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: That's all due to sleep drive.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: So having a good chunk of wakefulness before you go into bed.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: That's why caffeine absolutely.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: There's a sleep science.
15:35
SPEAKER_03: That's why caffeine works on adenosine by blocking it's right.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: It blocks adenosine in it.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: Caffeine blocks the adenosine without activating the receptor, right?
15:42
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: A competitive antagonist.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: It takes its spot, doesn't do any of the downstream stuff with that receptor, and that's what makes you feel awake temporarily.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: So having a good sleep drive is important, and then timing, so circadian rhythm and your circadian timing is important.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Some people are natural night owls, some people are morning people.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: If your schedule allows it, trying to match up your bedtime with the time your body naturally feels sleepy.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: So those are the two sleep-related processes.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: For those who are uh privileged enough to actually match that up or lucky.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we live in like a morning board world, you know, so it's kind of unfair for many people who have to wake up at a time their body's just not ready.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Think about like your teenagers in high school.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: They hate waking up at 7 o'clock to start school.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just not where their body wants to be.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: My I actually wake up, I tend to wake up more towards like 3 a.m.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And that also sucks.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Not because I hate it, but because I can't make noises.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean so it's hard for me to at our get lost and having roommates and neighbors and everybody.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, as you're getting older, the other challenges, your your sleep is naturally a little bit more fragmented.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: You naturally tend to wake up a little bit more, and or you know, you're more perceptive of those awakenings, they tend to last a little bit longer.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a normal part of aging where you tend to have more of those awakenings.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: And that two or three o'clock awakening is a really common time where you're going through sleep cycles and then waking up.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry you can't make the the noises you're hoping to make, but um, you know, the goal is to try to remain as relaxed as possible and hope that sleep comes back before it stops.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, and conveniently on that note, um, this morning I woke up at three uh because initially I had to uh go drive to the city and meet up with a client and stuff, which involves waking up early.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Um but he had to cancel on me because he's sick.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: So I was trying to get back to bed, and I was laying there, and I was flip-flopping a bit, and then I got the phone out and I started doom scrolling a bit, and then unfortunately, your your one of your go to go to sleep things didn't come up, which would have been easy to do.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I need to make more.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: But uh idea I'll start on your box.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: You guys like just tell people to go to sleep.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, all right, fine, I'll tell people to go to sleep.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And they liked it.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: I I remembered for the discussion from last time you were on about um disassociating the bedroom with all the daytime activities, and so I ended up just getting up, coming into the computer room, and I just sat here and played games for a bit, and then I went back to bed and I felt back sleep.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: It's a really common technique called stimulus control, which is you know, you want to save your room for sleep, relaxation.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to be doing too many activities in your bed.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: You're you want to pair your brain um, you know, with your when it comes to sleep and relaxation in your room.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: The same way, like if you walk into the gym and you're like, ah, I'm pumped up, I'm ready to, I'm ready to work out.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: You walk into a restaurant and you feel hungry, you know, when you walk into your room, you should start feeling relaxed, not anxious or worried.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: And so we want to keep that pairing uh that way.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: And so if you're if you're ruminating and you can't fall asleep in you know 20, 30 minutes, we recommend doing something boring and getting out of your bed.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: That's one of the insomnia techniques that we use for insomnia.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, it definitely worked for me this morning.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Good.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Sounds well.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: I I've got a question that might be, I guess, slightly controversial because there are some conditions.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Is it against the law?
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, then I will have to mark that on our ad thing.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: We will probably lose.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: But go ahead.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: Canada or US?
19:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, when they asked, lost melatonin is good.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: Some people say melatonin's bad.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: There are some studies saying it's got some effects on heart health.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh, where do you stand on melatonin supplements?
20:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, melatonin is actually very useful for certain reasons.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a great circadian rhythm shifting agent, you know, when you're trying to move your circadian timing earlier, get to bed earlier and wake up earlier.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's useful for you know, for teenagers that are diagnosed with a circadian rhythm problem.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: It's good for jet lag, it's good for shift work.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: It's good in certain situations, such as with children that have um autistic children and those that have ADHD, uh melatonin has a place.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh, for otherwise healthy folks that are having either sleep hygiene issues or insomnia issues, not very effective.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: So if you're using it for the right reason, it's it's great.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Um there was a a poster presented about uh heart health and melatonin, and I will tell you that there is essentially no data right now showing any causal role of melatonin causing heart problems.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it's probably the fact that someone is having more severe heart problems that leads them to a higher chance of needing melatonin because they can't sleep very well when you have heart problems.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: So I would ignore anything you've heard about melatonin and heart risk because we just don't have that data right now.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: Some people say it's it seems like I just wasn't sure.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: But it's it's it's good if you're using it for the right indication.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh and you're using a reliable source because it's it's a supplement here in the US.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: They can put anything they want to in these bottles.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: So you got to have a reliable place you're getting it from.
21:16
SPEAKER_03: And then as far as dosage, that's I've really just seen the ones that are like 10 milligrams.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: It's quite a lot to write to be putting in a single dose.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh 100%.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's become kind of like sleep candy.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Usually when it comes to circadian rhythm adjustments, like the it's the timing that you're taking it rather than the dose.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: So we recommend super low doses, like half a milligram to milligram, but take it much earlier, like two to six hours prior to the current sleep onset time.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: And that's what you do to kind of adjust that circadian rhythm.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Children, autistic children, those ADHD that are using it for sleep inducing, may take it a little bit later at higher doses.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: That's what I found when people asked about it was they would be taking it like right before they went to bed and expecting it to work.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, you gotta give it time.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: Right.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: I guess uh I think I told this last time, but I had a patient who took 10 milligrams right before bed and then he couldn't sleep like an hour later.
22:07
SPEAKER_03: He's like, Should I take another one?
22:09
SPEAKER_03: And I was like, No, I think you're good.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: You don't need to be taking 20 milligrams.
22:12
SPEAKER_03: This is you, I mean, we didn't even use it right in the first place.
22:15
SPEAKER_03: We're definitely not using it right now.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: I think you know, for me, you're probably already saturating all your melatonin receptors with just even three milligrams, you know.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: So you're just creating really expensive urine.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: That you know, the more melatonin you take, this I think is probably a waste.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
22:30
SPEAKER_03: Uh it wasn't gummy form, so like, you know, you get the gummies as well.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: That's nice.
22:35
SPEAKER_03: A little sweet treat before bed, cavities, all that good stuff.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Dentists hate it, you know.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: That stuff will just tear up your teeth for sure.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: I I yeah.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Kids, you gotta avoid the gummies at night.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Adults too, unless you're like Flossing like mad.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not good.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: My I take melatonin on occasion because I have trouble getting to sleep and I have damn near impossibility staying asleep, which I think probably some people listening to us also struggle with.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: I have always had that issue.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: Um my coach right now is yelling at me for not being able to stay asleep all night because it's you know it impedes recovery.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: When somebody comes to you about this type of thing, what do you recommend other than horse tranquilizer?
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm about to try that.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: It's well, first I always tell people that waking up at night is not a failure of your sleep.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, you should wake up at night.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Waking up is totally normal.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: So first and foremost, I say let's take some of the pressure off of trying to stay asleep.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Don't think of it as a failure.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Because as you go through your sleep cycles, you're supposed to go to deeper stages and lighter stages and oftentimes have an awakening at night.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Particularly if you're getting your full sleep knee and you're not super sleep deprived, those awakenings are going to be a little bit more common.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: So I take the pressure off, you know, don't think of it as a failure.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Then the other the next issue is well, is it causing a problem for you?
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Like if you wake up for five, 10 minutes at night, you stay calm, you fall back asleep, you wake up feeling fine.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not a big problem.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's not a it's not a big problem.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: So figuring out whether it's truly an issue for your overall sleep and recovery is the next step.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: And then there are so there's so many things that play a role in how well we sleep at night.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: So the medications we're taking, our daytime activities, caffeine intake, alcohol, nicotine, sleep hygiene, our environment, the environment, your mental health state, right?
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Are you particularly anxious at nighttime?
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Are you waking up feeling anxious?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Do you have insomnia?
24:20
SPEAKER_01: Do you have restless leg?
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Do you have sleep app?
24:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's like a million questions I can ask you.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: And for everybody, it's different.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I always say if if you have the ability, uh, if you're having trouble with sleep and it's causing significant daytime issues, go talk to a sleep professional.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, go find either a sleep doctor, a sleep psychologist, somebody that your PCP can refer you to, uh, to really dive into the core issue, which is, you know, always our goal in medicine, despite what some people will say.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to get to the root cause of what's causing your sleep issues.
24:48
SPEAKER_03: And that's something that's really common.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: Like I someone worked in, I don't know, 10 years or however long I worked in sleep medicine.
24:54
SPEAKER_03: People would always just say, Oh, I just wake up a lot because I have to pee, or something like that.
24:59
SPEAKER_03: And then I get them in the sleep lab and they have the most severe sleep apnea ever.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
25:03
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, that's why you're getting up to pee, is because you're choking in your sleep constantly, or maybe it's restless leg, or maybe it's something else, whatever.
25:10
SPEAKER_03: There's something else going on.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: Now, for some people, yeah, it is just like anxiety and that sort of thing.
25:15
SPEAKER_03: Like it really depends, of course, always.
25:18
SPEAKER_03: What I found what helped me, and helps I think it helps other people, is like you kind of said, is take the pressure off yourself.
25:25
SPEAKER_03: I think people wake up and they're like, okay, I have to get to sleep.
25:27
SPEAKER_03: You know, you kind of look at the clock, you're like, all right, it's 3 a.m.
25:30
SPEAKER_03: If I fall asleep right now, I have four hours of sleep left.
25:32
SPEAKER_03: Okay, if I sleep, okay, now if I sleep, I have three hours left, and you're just making it way worse for yourself.
25:37
SPEAKER_03: 100%.
25:38
SPEAKER_03: So instead of focusing on like I have to, yeah, and I have to fall asleep.
25:41
SPEAKER_03: I found what kind of helps is like, I'm just gonna lie here and relax.
25:44
SPEAKER_03: I'm not even gonna try and fall asleep.
25:46
SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna lie here and just do my best because I need to relax.
25:49
SPEAKER_03: My day is stressful.
25:50
SPEAKER_03: I just need to relax in bed.
25:51
SPEAKER_03: And maybe you for, or at least for me, I would put on like a relaxing podcast or something like that, or you know, listen to a book on tape, whatever.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: Right now, listen to it.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: Not this podcast.
26:00
SPEAKER_03: Not this one.
26:01
SPEAKER_03: No, of course not.
26:02
SPEAKER_03: Never listen to this podcast.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: I cannot not recommend you enough.
26:05
SPEAKER_03: But the uh like Lord of the Rings, that's what I've listened to.
26:08
SPEAKER_03: Book on tape, Lord of the Rings.
26:09
SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you, boy, I I love the movies.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Books very very dull.
26:15
SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness, Tolkien likes to go on and on about fucking everything.
26:21
SPEAKER_03: When the song starts up, I'm like, all right, well, I know we have 15 minutes before the song is over, so I'm gonna try and relax.
26:27
SPEAKER_03: And like, so whatever, something that's just kind of yeah, exactly.
26:31
SPEAKER_03: Kind of laid back and relaxing.
26:32
SPEAKER_03: I listen to that and I kind of just lie there and go, all right, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna focus on recovery right now.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: You've actually stumbled upon one of the techniques that we use in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: We call it paradoxical intent, which is, you know, people are like, let me try to turn my brain off.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Let me try to go to sleep, let me like will myself to sleep.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: And you just can't do that, right?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's not what sleep is.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: You got to accept it kind of passively.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: So we tell people lay awake quietly in bed and be comfortable with that wakefulness in bed.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And tell your brain, I'm just gonna try to lay here awake but relaxed, you know, and naturally your brain oftentimes falls asleep because you've taken that pressure off of yourself.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I mean, I love that.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: That's um, that's that's a that's a known strategy.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: And then decatastrophizing, like you mentioned, this is also part of CBT cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, let's take some of that pressure off of it.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: You have so many people, you know, and I try not to be that guy, but like on social media saying, ah, if you don't sleep, you're gonna have all these health problems and you're gonna be miserable and your life's gonna suck and you gotta sleep perfectly.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: Let's take the pressure off of it, you know.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't have to track every minute of your sleep, you don't have to, you know, try to like optimize your sleep score.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: Let's take some of that, some of that, you know, suck some of that power away from what social.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Here's your F word.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: What do you got?
27:49
SPEAKER_03: Oh, a 10.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: Shit.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: All that's well.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: I think all of us here are sleep scores in the negatives.
27:55
SPEAKER_03: No, that would be in the positives.
27:57
SPEAKER_03: You you mark like a number, like two, three for like how bad shit is.
28:01
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, you'd be like real high, right?
28:04
SPEAKER_03: Isn't it?
28:04
SPEAKER_03: It's been a while since I gave it up for sleeping.
28:09
SPEAKER_03: How likely are you to fall asleep at a red light out of three?
28:12
SPEAKER_03: All right, three.
28:13
SPEAKER_03: Shit, that's not good.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: You probably got the sleep apnea.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: You probably if you're falling asleep, but if you're falling asleep at like red lights, that's when I tell people, like, all right, shit's real bad.
28:23
SPEAKER_03: You need like to get some, you need to get it looked at.
28:26
SPEAKER_03: Okay, if you're just a little sleepy when you're at work at noon, when you kind of have your general circadian dip or whatever you call it.
28:34
SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, that's why like a lot of countries take siestas.
28:37
SPEAKER_03: We need to be doing what's your take on siestas?
28:40
SPEAKER_03: Can we start doing that more?
28:41
SPEAKER_03: Like just like noon, one o'clock.
28:43
SPEAKER_03: You just pass out for like 20 minutes.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of siestas.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a fan of siestas if you're catching up for acute sleep loss, or it's already part of your day and you're you know, you're you're sleeping fine at night.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't like it in the in the for insomniacs because you take a little bit of a napetizer during the day, and then your main meal at night is completely ruined, you know.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: So um, so it's good in certain situations.
29:04
unknown: Yeah.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: So, like, oh, and I went biphasic sleep on that no.
29:08
SPEAKER_03: Biphasic, yeah, to fall asleep for a few hours, wake up, a few more hours.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Biphasic, you know, versus polyphasic.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: I'll say you biphasic is probably totally fine as long as you're getting the appropriate number of hours.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: And the thought was that before the industrial revolution, that's actually how we slept.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, like we slept in two chunks of time, like a first sleep and a second sleep.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: So as long as you're feeling fine, that's likely okay.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Polyphasic sleep, this whole Da Vinci scheme of like, I'm gonna sleep an hour and a half and then try to get my own sleep by sleeping those chunks, that you're gonna crash and burn if you're if you're not naturally uh needing a low sleep need.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, no, you can't be Da Vinci because Da Vinci had a certain set of genetics that you probably that was fascinating.
29:48
SPEAKER_03: Where they're like, Yeah, okay, so you fall asleep, you immediately go into REM sleep.
29:51
SPEAKER_03: That's how tired you are.
29:52
SPEAKER_03: So you just get that like most important sleep and you sleep for like 20 minutes.
29:55
SPEAKER_03: There was a whole Seinfeld episode where Kramer tried to do it.
29:58
SPEAKER_03: I remember that.
29:58
SPEAKER_03: He went crazy.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: I don't do it, but like it's very funny.
30:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
30:02
SPEAKER_03: It's not good.
30:03
SPEAKER_03: Not good.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like biphasic sleep would help me, but it's also hard to fit into society.
30:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's why I mostly went away, right?
30:12
SPEAKER_03: It's because yeah, we had you had references to sleep one and sleep two, where like sleep one was a little bit shorter.
30:17
SPEAKER_03: You wake up, you go like do your farming and shit, and then you're like, all right, I go back to sleep, and then I sleep another like five hours.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people used to do all sorts of interesting things in the middle of the night.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, yeah, I mean, industrial revolution and people had to work all the time, and and now you start narrowing down that sleep window.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, capitalism, baby.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Capitalism, yeah.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's go.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: I like with my erratic sleep schedule.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: First off, I I'm surprised to hear that like if you wake up a handful of times in the night, like that's not a failure.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: I always assumed I was just really bad at it.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: But I don't I don't struggle with energy.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty energetic through the day.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm not struggling to get through anything.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm not taking naps or falling asleep at red lights.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: I though if I walk into a movie theater and they've got like those reclining couch seats, I'm not seeing that movie.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: It's there's not a chance I'm awake to the point where the uh the movie even starts.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh but beyond that, like I'm not I'm not passing out anywhere.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, so like would my sleep score ultimately, even if I'm not getting like enough?
31:19
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing, you know, is it a problem for you, right?
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Is is the awakening turning into a problem for you?
31:23
SPEAKER_01: And you know, part of the criteria that we use for sleep disorders is is it causing some sort of daytime manifestation that you don't like?
31:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, problems at work or problems with the relationships with others, and you know, if if it's not causing issues for you, it's likely not a problem.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, even these short intermittent awakenings, if you're getting the full sleep need, you're probably doing okay.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I I'm a I'm a sleep expert, I know all the tricks.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll wake up at least twice each night, you know, lay there quietly and go back to sleep.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Liam has his hand up.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes, Liam.
31:54
unknown: Okay.
31:55
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to ask something because there's okay, so like I wanted there's this is fun one, like about naps.
32:01
SPEAKER_03: So, like when you're talking like, you know, optimal length of time for nap, like for a nap, right?
32:07
SPEAKER_03: You don't want to get into like a stage three, a deeper, which is a deeper stage of sleep.
32:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:13
SPEAKER_03: So in order to avoid that, you don't want it to be, you know, like 45 minutes.
32:16
SPEAKER_03: So you get like 45 minutes to an hour, you're probably going into that after an hour.
32:20
SPEAKER_03: Maybe you're going into REM.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: You probably don't want to wake up from that either.
32:23
SPEAKER_03: I mean, maybe, I mean, I guess that's not as bad because that's kind of how your sleep base goes, but you know, you don't want to wake up from deep sleep.
32:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:28
SPEAKER_03: So you want to keep it to like what, 20 minutes, right?
32:30
SPEAKER_03: Something like that, 15, 25 minutes.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: I like I like a 20 to 30 minute nap, or I like a full 90 minutes to get you through a full sleep cycle.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Either, either of those, it'll be easier to wake up from than if you sleep 25 minutes.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: And and the reason, you know, it's not that the 45-minute nap is not going to be refreshing.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, even some of that deep sleep is gonna help you, but you're gonna feel like crap when you wake up.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're gonna be feel like you're hungover, like you have a headache, and you're like, why did I take that nap?
32:54
SPEAKER_01: I feel even worse.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's just the sleep inertia, you know, this need to get back to sleep because you woke up out of deep sleep.
33:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:01
SPEAKER_03: So I've seen there's like clocks and stuff that will try and wake you up out of a lighter stage of sleep by slowly waking you up instead of you waking up out of stage three, it'll kind of like usher you more towards stage one and you, which is a lighter stage, and then you wake up out of that, which is interesting.
33:13
SPEAKER_03: But one technique I've seen people do that I find very, I'm not saying endorse this, okay?
33:19
SPEAKER_03: But what's I uh like when you're just talking about the mechanics of it, I'm like, that's actually kind of fun and I like it.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, is caffeine takes about 20 minutes to take your, you know, to take its full effect, right?
33:32
SPEAKER_03: So you chug a monster energy zero, you know, a white monster or some coffee, just go right down, then lie down for a nap immediately.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: You're killing me.
33:42
SPEAKER_03: So set your alarm for like 25 minutes.
33:45
SPEAKER_03: You will you wake up and you're feeling just like ready to take on the world.
33:50
SPEAKER_03: Let me tell you.
33:50
SPEAKER_03: I'm listening I'm not saying again, I'm not telling you to endorse this, but from a pure mechanics aspect, it does make sense.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and from yeah, you know what?
34:00
SPEAKER_01: From a sleep physiology as you're totally right because you're hitting your sleep drive in two ways.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: You're taking a nap, so that decreases your sleep drive, and you're hitting it with it with caffeine, so that gets so yes, physiologically, it will work, it'll help you.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: But this is this is my problem.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, if I pound a monster energy drink and now you're like, you gotta go to sleep right now.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: So you go wake up in 25, that nap is not gonna, that's not coming to me.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I'm gonna, I don't need pressure to take my nap, you know, knowing that I have an alarm that's going off in 25 minutes, right?
34:29
SPEAKER_01: So so my my my thing is, well, why don't you just take that nap without the pressure?
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Wake up 20, 25 minutes later, and then have your monster energy drink if you really want it, you know, and want to get that buzz.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: But but I hear you.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: People, some people swear by the coffee nap, I just don't like it.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: And by that time, you're also too late in your day because you're gonna have some caffeine floating around in your system.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Like you only get rid of half the caffeine every like four to seven hours on average.
34:53
SPEAKER_03: So you take it at noon and then you don't go to bed till 10 or 11.
34:58
SPEAKER_03: You got like 10, 11 hours to get that mostly out of your system.
35:01
SPEAKER_03: It might be a little bit, but not that much.
35:02
SPEAKER_03: You're right.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be a lot less.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: But I'll tell you, you know, like the half-life for most people is four to seven hours.
35:08
SPEAKER_03: Um the coffee nap is cool.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: If you took listen, if you are a slow metabolizer, let's just let's say, let's just let's say you drank a cup of coffee before you took this nap, that's like 150 milligrams of caffeine.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: All right.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: And let's say you're a slow metabolizer, you only you only metabolize like a half of it every seven hours.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: You wake up at three o'clock from your nap or two o'clock, and you want to go to bed at 10 o'clock at night.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: So you're probably a little bit less than half that caffeine now in your system.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Let's say you're at 50 milligrams of caffeine.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: That's still like like a can of coke that's in your system when you're trying to go to sleep at night, you know.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: So my my thing, and you and most people don't know how quickly they metabolize.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: They don't just don't know.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: Like I can drink a cup of coffee in the morning and I can feel it at night.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I know I'm gonna have a worse night of sleep.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: So everybody's a bit different.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm also pretty naive to caffeine, that might be why.
35:56
SPEAKER_03: So take the nap earlier.
35:57
SPEAKER_03: Take the coffee nap earlier, is what you're saying.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: I've always wanted to know what it feels like for caffeine to affect you.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: To affect me?
36:04
SPEAKER_01: Man, I don't even know what would happen.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: My wife would probably leave me because I'd have so much energy.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, I have a decent amount of energy as it is, but you know, with caffeine.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, just like people in jet, like I'm I'm the fast metabolizer, so I caffeine doesn't affect me at all.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: Or you're just so sleep-deprived that you can still fall asleep.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Whenever people say, Yeah, I have a cup of coffee and I'm I I just I I I can chug like three energy drinks, and I'll just be like, eh.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: All of your caffeine receptors are.
36:31
SPEAKER_03: People always ask about ADHD.
36:33
SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, yeah, I have ADHD, caffeine doesn't affect me.
36:37
SPEAKER_03: And I don't really have like the great ex people ask me, like, I don't really have an expert.
36:40
SPEAKER_03: This is something a lot of people have reported, but I don't know a mechanism by which someone having ADHD would adenosine, you know, caffeine's a flocking of adenosine.
36:49
SPEAKER_03: I totally less effective or whatever.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally agree.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: Or it might be that they're they're they're a little bit more focused, you know, a little bit less hyperactive because the caffeine is a stimulant and that can help with ADHD symptoms.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's it's helping.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, can you hear me?
37:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I am sort of notorious for uh I I don't advocate against much in terms of like you know what you eat and what you take in or whatever, but caffeine, I believe personally, we could all do either without or with much less.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh with you as a sleep doctor, would you, if a patient told you that they were gonna quit caffeine, would that make you happy?
37:28
SPEAKER_01: I would say, you know, I'm I'm I'm going for function.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'll say that if somebody's drinking a cup of coffee in the morning, they enjoy it, sleeping well at nighttime.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh I am I'm okay with that.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, the system isn't broken, I don't I don't need to fix it.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: But if they have sleep issues and we find a solution, like getting rid of the caffeine, and I don't have to run for a sleep drug to help them sleep, then I consider that a win.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I would consider that a success story for sure.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: And there's something to be said about like coffee.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, coffee in and of itself that's been found to have some you know antioxidant effects, and so there could be some health benefits to coffee, but that benefit is there whether you you use the caffeinated version or the caffeine-free version.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there is likely some health benefits to things like coffee, but the caffeine in and of itself, I don't I don't think you necessarily need.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna play that clip for all of my clients who tell me that they can't sleep and also have an arsenal of energy drinks behind them every morning.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: If you guys are listening right now, there's orders.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I would say, it's it's so what oh sorry, go ahead.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: I think I have a little bit of a delay.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say that you know, I think a lot of people also get frustrated because oftentimes we talk about the sleep hygiene things like avoiding caffeine and having a routine and keeping the environment cool and calm.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's all that's all good for those that have sleep hygiene issues.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, so sleep, good sleep hygiene fixes bad sleep hygiene, but it rarely fixes things like chronic insomnia.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna fix things like restless leg.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: If you have an underlying true sleep disorder, you know, a lot of times these chronic insomniacs get really frustrated and we're like, oh yeah, you know, just do the sleep hygiene thing.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: So it really depends on what the core the core cause of sleep issues are.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: And it can be multiple things, it can be the sleep hygiene and the insomnia.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: So I also tell people don't get frustrated if you perfect your sleep hygiene and you're still having sleep challenges, just know that there is more to it in many in many situations than just the sleep hygiene.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: I think we lost him again.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Got a little leggy there for a second.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I um that that that's something with me because I do have the chronic insomnia that needs to be medicated.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: But working on my sleep hygiene within the last couple of years, um not just before your first time on, but a little bit after that as well, because you also had some stuff in there.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: That if I came off the meds, I I still wouldn't be able to sleep.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: But it makes me sleep better on the meds, and actually I can actually use less meds.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, you cut out a little bit on me here.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: You're but I I think I get I get the gist, which is you know, finding ways to to decrease the medications you need for sleep.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Right?
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Is that fair?
40:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: That's that's a fair assessment.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: The the challenge with some of the sleep medications that we use, they end up actually decreasing the quality of sleep in many ways.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: So some of these medications, for example, you know, a class of medicines called benzodiazepines that, you know, Xanax, Atavan, Balium, all of those can help people quote unquote fall asleep, but the quality of your sleep then then suffers because you you can't get into the deepest stages of sleep on benzodiazepines, which is it sounds counterintuitive.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: You're like, well, if it helped me fall asleep, doesn't it help me get into deep sleep?
40:37
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so I'm all about trying to minimize sleep aids when there are other solutions that are more effective.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: And so for insomnia, we know that CBTI, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, tends to be more effective than a lot of our medications long term.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: I want to bring up that sleep.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: Not often that I have to take Atavan to help me sleep anymore.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: That's all I want to say.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Leah.
41:00
SPEAKER_03: I want to bring up that sleep and and and anesthesia are not the same thing.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: A lot of people think that I love it.
41:06
SPEAKER_03: You're like, oh, you go, you're you're unconscious and you're so it's a it's sleep.
41:10
SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, no, no.
41:11
SPEAKER_03: Big difference.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: Sleep, active process.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: Sleep thing things happen during sleep.
41:16
SPEAKER_03: People think go sleep, nothing happens.
41:18
SPEAKER_03: No, many things happen, many important things happen.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: Active.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: Such a big one.
41:22
SPEAKER_03: What was it?
41:23
SPEAKER_03: What was Michael Jackson taken?
41:24
SPEAKER_03: Probofol.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: To sleep?
41:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:26
SPEAKER_03: Probofol, that's what it was.
41:28
SPEAKER_03: And like, that's that isn't that that's not even really sleep, is it?
41:31
SPEAKER_03: Like, is that would that be considered sleep?
41:33
SPEAKER_01: No, it's anesthesia, you know, and 100% right.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad you mentioned this.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, people your brain waves are doing different things when you're in under sedation and ver versus sleep.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, if you drink a bunch of alcohol, yes, you're falling asleep faster, but you have a sedated, you're in a sedated space, not necessarily a natural sleep space.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So you it's a net negative on your sleep.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: And similarly, for a lot of these, you know, heavy.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Would it be similar to alcohol?
41:59
SPEAKER_01: 100%, 100%.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, great point.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Sedation is not equate to sleep.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:04
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
42:05
SPEAKER_03: Get some of that.
42:05
SPEAKER_03: So all you take in your anesthesia to sleep, stop breathing.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: Please don't do that.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: I've I've got a tank next to my bed and I just put my mask on every night.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: No wonder I've been tired.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: I keep waking up missing teeth.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I and I do feel like, you know, I feel sympathy for folks that have gone to that extreme to be like, listen, there's no way I can shut my brain down, you know.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, man, please see like a sleep doctor and not an anesthesiologist if you're having sleep problems.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: Of course, big sleep would say that.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: Come see the sleep doctor.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, big sleep, you know.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, big sleep's not to get you for sure.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
42:40
SPEAKER_03: What it's a conspiracy.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
42:43
SPEAKER_03: Let me let me ask you something.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: What percent just the I you're probably not gonna be able to answer it.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: You're not gonna answer you're not gonna answer for pull for political reasons, whatever.
42:51
SPEAKER_03: But what percentage of people do you think that they're like, oh, I have like serious sleep issues?
42:55
SPEAKER_03: Is it just like poor sleep hygiene?
42:58
SPEAKER_03: That they're just like they're not doing the things that they should be doing in order to get better sleep, and what percentage of it is like, oh no, there's like a serious underlying thing that we need like a different secondary effect to work.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: That is a great question to think about.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you that in almost 95% of situations, there's still something you can do with sleep hygiene to push things in the right direction.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: But you know, when it comes to numbers, for example, you know, half of adults that snore regularly also have sleep apnea, right?
43:28
SPEAKER_01: So if you if you snore regularly, that could be a huge contribute contributor to your poor sleep.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, a good chunk of the population has restless leg, you know.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: So uh so yeah, I would say the vast majority of folks that have tried things with sleep hygiene that continue to have issues likely have an underlying identifiable sleep disorder.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's completely untreated.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, the sad thing is, you know, Liam, you have you have background knowledge in sleep.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Most physicians in training get zero training on sleep disorders.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: Medical school, they get zero training on sleep disorders, you know, um residency, zero training.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: And so when you go to your doctor, you're like, I can't sleep, they're like, well, how about some ambient?
44:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, because that's that's all I really know.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not meant to be a knock on doctors, but it's just, you know, we we don't we don't know.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: We don't even ask the questions because we don't we don't want to deal with the answers because there's you know, there's it just branches in so many different directions.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: So um so we're not trained, and that's why a lot of the real world population also feels like, oh, I can't sleep.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a it's a me problem, let me just take a medicine to fix that problem, as opposed to thinking, let me walk through the different things it could be and find a solution to the core issue.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, we think about magnesium, we think about, I don't know, like chamomile, you know.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: If you're trying to get to the core issue, I don't know anybody that has a physiologic chamomile deficiency.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: Do you like have you is there like a blood test for a chamomile?
44:48
SPEAKER_01: Levels in the body, you know, like are we are we net low on essential oils, you know?
44:52
SPEAKER_01: Like so, but this is what people end up doing, you know, like let me just try these different things.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, nah, there's probably an underlying issue that you have that your body needs to have addressed.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: So I'll step off.
45:03
SPEAKER_03: I've seen I've had patients have just like I'm okay.
45:07
SPEAKER_03: So like I'm not gonna run through the whole sleep apnea thing, but basically we look at how many times per hour you stop breathing or you stop breathing enough, that is bad, right?
45:15
SPEAKER_03: We look at that per hour.
45:17
SPEAKER_03: And like anything, if you stop breathing over 30 times an hour, that would be considered severe sleep apnea.
45:23
SPEAKER_03: I've had patients well over a hundred.
45:25
SPEAKER_03: I've had patients where they their number is lower than a hundred, but it's worse because they literally do not they do not breathe when they sleep.
45:34
SPEAKER_03: The moment they fall asleep, they stop breathing.
45:36
SPEAKER_03: The only time they sleep is when is the periods of apnea where they're not breathing.
45:42
SPEAKER_03: They wake up and then fall back asleep for about 45 seconds because that's as long as they can hold their breath.
45:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I've had those patients be like, nah, I just have to pee a lot.
45:51
SPEAKER_03: And I use this um uh this rub on my chest.
45:54
SPEAKER_03: That's what really opens up my my nose and allows me to breathe, and like all of these other things.
46:00
SPEAKER_03: And I'm just like, wow, we gotta get I mean, and they're like, Oh, is there anything besides uh CPAP?
46:07
SPEAKER_03: Not for you, not for you, my friend.
46:09
SPEAKER_03: My I'm sorry, like I hate to say it.
46:11
SPEAKER_03: Yes, when it's this bad, people people have no idea, and like you think, oh, it's only like larger people have it for sure.
46:17
SPEAKER_03: The larger your neck circumference, anything about what is it, like 17 inches or whatever.
46:22
SPEAKER_03: I don't even know it's been so long, but like anything above a certain amount is more likely.
46:25
SPEAKER_03: You see someone where it's like head shoulders, where it just skips neck, good chance sleep apnea.
46:30
SPEAKER_03: But I've had many people who are very skinny and have just just horrible sleep apnea.
46:36
SPEAKER_03: So, like, I'm not saying I scare people, say everybody has it, but like, yeah, again, like you said, if you snore, if you're tired all the time, like or and it could be other things too, it might not be sleep apnea to try and you know, you know, and go and get checked out.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: Just to drive that point home, you know, kids.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: You have I I see kids all the time in my clinic, thin kids that have sleep apnea.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: It's all anatomical.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: They have big tonsils, they have big adenoids.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh the Japanese population who by nature tend to be on the thinner side have roaring sleep apnea.
47:02
SPEAKER_03: And so we think we think it's people of like age East Asian descent, I see it like the worst.
47:07
SPEAKER_03: That's like they're they're like 120 pounds soaking wet.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: It's all all anatomy.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: If your jaw tends to be a little bit further back, if the nasal passes tend to be narrower, if your palate is a little bit longer, if your tongue, you know, the sits back a little bit compared to where your pal so many anatomical issues that can play a role, and you can be, yes, rail thin and still have severe sleep apnea.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: So that's a great point that I hope people take to heart.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: All these folks that are watching listening to this, their spouse or bed partner has been elbowing them, telling them to get a sleep study.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: Just go get it done, man.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Go change your life.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Go change your life.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: Go do it, go do it.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, go change your life.
47:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I oh my god, I've seen people who like wear it, and they're like, I had no idea what good sleep was.
47:47
SPEAKER_03: I've it's been decades of this, and I had no idea.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm convinced that like 20% of the population is experiencing consciousness through this perpetual fog, like they don't even know what real consciousness feels like anymore.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: And then they get a sleep, a CPAP machine, and suddenly like the birds are singing clearer and the colors are more vivid.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, man, go change your consciousness.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: Life is short, man.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, why are you living like this?
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Life is short.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Go, go, go get it taken care of.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: Life is short, man.
48:14
SPEAKER_03: And yes.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: Speaking of changing your consciousness, have you seen the new DeLorean?
48:19
SPEAKER_03: Have you seen this?
48:20
SPEAKER_03: No, I have not.
48:21
SPEAKER_03: And I because I'm pretty sure when you drive one, yeah, they're remaking it, basically.
48:25
SPEAKER_03: So, like the old, you know, from whatever wherever.
48:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're remaking it, and we're we're working on getting one.
48:31
SPEAKER_03: Are you really?
48:31
SPEAKER_03: Well, we want one, but it's a quarter million dollars, so we're a little shy, right?
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm a huge fan.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge fan.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know I love the Lorenz, yeah.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: But how what does it have to do with changing consciousness?
48:43
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, well, when you drive one, that will completely change your consciousness.
48:46
SPEAKER_03: You will enter a new um echelon of consciousness, but also we're required to bring it up at least once an episode, and 51 minutes into the episode, it's the latest we have ever brought one up, and I was terrified.
48:59
SPEAKER_03: What kind of what side joke this is?
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Are you getting it?
49:01
SPEAKER_00: I was wondering if you're gonna get it in.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: Uh unfortunately that would be great.
49:06
SPEAKER_02: I totally lost the plot.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's uh it just hit me like a DeLorean.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: Wow, very gently because they're not gonna be like, Oh, right, yeah, we have not mentioned very fast.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: We haven't I think last episode it was mentioned in the first like 30 seconds.
49:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and this one is like the near the end of the episode.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: Are you getting one?
49:25
SPEAKER_00: Also, haven't seen uh Firefly.
49:27
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, I haven't seen it, but there aren't they coming back or some shit?
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's coming back.
49:32
SPEAKER_03: I thought I saw something.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: I was talking to Mike about it, and Mike hasn't seen it.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Mike, you not seeing Firefly is the equivalent of Liam not seeing back to the future.
49:45
SPEAKER_03: To be fair though, I am not seeing it for the purpose of a joke, which is very important.
49:50
SPEAKER_03: So that once I get the DeLorean, people say, people will say, like, oh, you love the movie, and I go, I haven't seen the movie.
49:56
SPEAKER_03: That's the whole reason I want the DeLorean, is just for the joke.
50:02
SPEAKER_03: No, I haven't seen it.
50:03
SPEAKER_03: I've never seen it, and I won't see it because I want that joke.
50:05
SPEAKER_03: I that's all I want is this life is to be able to drive around a DeLorean and people go, Wow, you must love the movie, and I go, What movie?
50:12
SPEAKER_03: That's all I want in this.
50:14
SPEAKER_02: When they come out, I I want to look when they when they make a new version of the Serenity, which is the ship and Firefly, they come up with an electric vehicle version of that.
50:25
SPEAKER_02: I I want to be able to say I haven't seen Firefly, but I'm still flying around.
50:29
SPEAKER_03: You need your own joke, Mike.
50:30
SPEAKER_03: Get the hell out of here.
50:31
SPEAKER_03: Take your communist lamp out of that and go find your own joke.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: If you ever, if you ever do this, Liam, just make sure you wear the DAC glasses along with it.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you probably want to know what those are, but but Rob and Mike.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: I kind of want to do the Marty McFly.
50:45
SPEAKER_03: I don't yeah.
50:45
SPEAKER_03: So Marty McFly has the like the vest, right?
50:48
SPEAKER_03: I don't, again, I haven't seen the movie, but I've seen like you know, trailers.
50:51
SPEAKER_03: He's got like a vest on or something, a skateboard.
50:53
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: So like what if I know Liam has to be the Marty McFly who doesn't really know what's going on, and then Mike will be there as Doc because Mike actually does know what's going on.
51:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if like if I came out in a vest and a skateboard and I said I didn't see the movie, you're telling if that if you see that and you ask someone and they go, Oh, I've never seen the movie, you're telling everyone that for the rest of your life.
51:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
51:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're telling like 10 years later, like I saw this guy driving a DeLorean, he'd never even see the movie.
51:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's f that's a story.
51:20
SPEAKER_03: That's funny.
51:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I love it.
51:21
SPEAKER_03: Or better yet, you just got to be able to do that.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't have my 2015 ones, but I've got the 1955 ones right now.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
51:27
SPEAKER_02: Pick their upside down.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Real deal.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they are.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Mike's got all the back.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: This is Marty McFly's watch right here.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: Which Liam wouldn't know because he's never seen the movie.
51:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wow.
51:38
SPEAKER_02: That's pretty impressive.
51:39
SPEAKER_03: Wibby wibbly wobbly timey whimey or whatever they say.
51:42
SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't know.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: Is that that might all that might be Doctor Who, but you know, whatever.
51:47
SPEAKER_03: It's all it's all time travel.
51:48
SPEAKER_03: It's all the same.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Just like Star Trek.
51:50
SPEAKER_03: Well, that would be your response.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Right?
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Like if Doc Brown had uh introduced himself to you, you'd go, Doctor Who?
51:57
SPEAKER_03: Doctor, exactly.
51:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because you wouldn't you have no idea.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: Same thing to you.
52:01
SPEAKER_03: They're both they're all old white men travel through time.
52:05
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, whatever.
52:06
SPEAKER_03: Sounds sorry what you're missing, Liam.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm sorry.
52:09
SPEAKER_03: You know, uh it's it's the joke is too good.
52:12
SPEAKER_03: I can't give up on this dream because we've seen it.
52:15
SPEAKER_03: It's like 40 grand for a freaking old one,$40,000,$50,000 for a for an original one.
52:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
52:21
SPEAKER_03: Well, so I won't give up on it.
52:23
SPEAKER_03: Not yet, at least.
52:24
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, if you want to help the uh DeLorean fund, go watch this on YouTube where we actually get monetized.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: And if you want the Lullaby mattress, the fund is at like 60 bucks right now.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: Which does not travel through time, but does help babies uh pass the time, I suppose.
52:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh, where would they find this mattress and where would they find it?
52:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lullaby.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: They can they can there's our little logo, lullaby.com, L-U-L-L-A-B-E-E, Lullaby.com, and I'm that sleepdock on almost every social media platform where social media is consumed.
52:55
SPEAKER_01: That sleepdoc.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: Now go to sleep.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Go to sleep.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: Go to sleep.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: Stop, stop listening.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: Whatever time it is.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: Take a seat.
53:01
SPEAKER_03: Drink a coffee and go take a nap.