Latest / Beyond the Pouch / E8: Jeremy Eakin on the Story of Eakin and the First Cohesive® Seal

Transcript

E8: Jeremy Eakin on the Story of Eakin and the First Cohesive® Seal · Beyond the Pouch

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey and welcome to Beyond the Pouch, a podcast series brought to you by Pelican Respond and Ekin, where your hosts, Rachel and Louise, dive into the world of Ostomy through open and honest conversations, including the lives of many inspirational ostomers, so you can get to know them beyond the pouch.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back for another episode of Beyond the Pouch.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_04: If you haven't listened to the first few episodes already, go over to Spotify and YouTube and catch us over there.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Today we have a very special guest with us.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's Jeremy Eakin, former CEO of Eakin Healthcare.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: Today we'll be discussing the history of Eakin, founded by Tom Eakin, and how it started as a family-owned business.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome, Jeremy.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be here.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to see you with me.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for being here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: Hi.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hi.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_04: So fill us in on how it all started.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: Where did this all start?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Long, long time ago, as I say.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It started, um, it's actually exactly 50 years this month for the business.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: My father, well, it started before that actually.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: My father's um a retired pharmacist.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um when I say he is a retired pharmacist, he's still alive and well.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's celebrating his 90th birthday this month.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: As well.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, big, big month for the business, 50th anniversary and 90th birthday for dad.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it started uh years ago.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's uh had his own pharmacy, retail pharmacy, in a place called Dundonald, which is a small suburb of Belfast.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a suburb, it was a small village, although it was thousands of years ago.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and really there were there were a couple of reasons that he he got into this whole area of business.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one was because during the 70s, people who uh wore a bag were changing from the old rubber reusable ones, the ones that you took off, emptied, washed out, put back on with a belt, and they were transferred, um they're changing from those bags to the plastic disposable bags with built-in hydrocolloids or glue that that we we know of today.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So people were coming into the shop, changing to these bags, and um they were just experiencing all kinds of issues with like leakage and sore skin because obviously hydrocolloids were new.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he he felt he he could maybe try and do something to help these people.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose the second reason, and more important reason, was there was somebody back at home who's a close family member with erostomy, and they were going through exactly all these things uh at the same time.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really the motivation.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you probably uh need to know a little bit more about my father's personality and know how he got into that uh kind of thing.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Louis a retail pharmacist, he just um was always loved making things and doing things.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh from one aspect, he was that old school pharmacist who would have made his own medicines and creams and mixed things at the back of the pharmacy.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are far too young to remember that.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then also I could imagine that as a kid growing up, he was the sort of kid probably played with meccano, so building things and doing things.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, really how he got into it was trying to develop a pouch, a urostomy pouch, and then develop his own uh hydrocolide or adhesive to make the pouch adhere to the skin.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then also from the mechano kind of perspective, he was into to making the machines that would then make these products, and that's really how it all started off.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right next door to the pharmacy was a small terrace house, and he bought the terrace house next door, and that became the first factory in 1973.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's really how it all started off.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, that was the motivation and and the guy behind it all.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Incredible.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: The hydrocholide back then was really new, wasn't it?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: It was accidentally discovered by a dentist.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not gonna history, there was uh it was called aura base.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's I could be wrong, I think it's recently discontinued, and then um the the first kind of variation of that was actually stoma heaves.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was really it came from aurabase, the the as you say, for I think it was like for mouth ulcers or things like that, and because obviously the lining of the of the mouth is all it's a moist environment and you needed something to stick to a moist environment.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's that was really the the um the stoma pastes, but then the actual hydro the uh hydrocolloid sort of glue and and sort of more gelatin-based things were also new as far as I'm aware at the time as well.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think before that it was almost like rubber flanges on an elastic belt that almost just strapped the bags on.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know you can get belts now to to hold bags in place for extra security, but in those days they were they were basically strapped on by the bags.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which is just can you imagine you're gonna be able to do that?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's crazy to think about because the amount of stuff that I've looked at, like the history of stoma bags and the history of the stoma and everything else, to see how far bags have come, especially within the last 20 years, yeah, compared to what people were living with in the 60s, 70s, 80s, it's absolutely crazy.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Phenomenal.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's strange because in some way technology hasn't moved on.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, 50s, 60s, 70s, you were wearing a bag.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's 2023, still wearing a bag, but actually the iterations of those and the the features and uh within the products to try to make them um more secure, more comfortable has has come on a lot.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think though, if you I think if you look at the bags in the 70s and the 80s, especially the the first disposable bags, it kind of reminds me of um so I shop at IKEA and we always get the sandwich bags from IKEA, and that is kind of what the first disposable stoma bag looked like.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was literally it just looks like a sandwich bag with with the base plate touched the back of it.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: I can't imagine how uncomfortable that must have been.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: I you know, wouldn't it be amazing if someone was alive now that we could go, what was that like?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, how was your day-to-day life compared to now?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of the reason why having a stoma is still so taboo, though.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think some of the research have done people using, I mean, even now in third world countries, people are using carrier bags and tin cans, whatever they can find.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are still people here in the UK, I would imagine, that are still wearing rubber bags.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are older people who use these and they're um, you know, they maybe had their stoma surgery 40, 50 years ago.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: They got discharged from hospital wearing the bag, they get the prescription, whatever now, they probably haven't seen a stoma nation 20 or 30 years.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they're still using the same thing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it probably there there probably are still people out there.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not many, but a few.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's crazy to think though, because wasn't it with the um the system that you used to use with the belts and the bag, wasn't a lot of people were suffering with allergies, which was part of the reason, wasn't it, why people started having a look at different base plates and materials because of the allergies that people were having with rubber and latex.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was I think there was definitely issues with with rubber and latex.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: There was the first iteration, um I'm not sure whether it's classified as hydrocholorid, I should know this, or or not, but similarly was caria gum.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if you've ever heard of that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like a caria was a natural something, natural ingredient from it's a natural gum.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they were a little bit like uh shapes and size of seals, but they were like brown rings.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they would have been used to stick, but people would have been allergic to caria.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the other thing um for people that were using the rubber bags with the belts and the rubber flanges was probably pressure sores as well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you wear a belt, I mean you guys know much more than me, you're gonna tighten the hell out of that belt to keep it really tight and secure.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if this was like a rigid rubber kind of literally flange, it was called, you know, that would be really digging in.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think there were allergies, I think there were pressure sores, there was all kinds of peristomal just challenges.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And stoma surgery as well.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can have potentially surgeries have really improved.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, so my little boy only had hit some more surgery two weeks ago because surgery he had when he was born nearly eight years ago has changed so much already in that time frame that he needed repairs done now.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: And we're talking eight years, so imagine going back to when your dad started doing his surgery.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: I can't even imagine how that must have changed.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: The the actual surgery and the actual anatomy of obviously forming an iliostomy or a colostomy or even a urostomy hasn't really changed in all that time.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's a different approach to how they do it, but it still hasn't overly changed.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, from how they form a urostomy to how they form an iliostomy, it's still pretty basic.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's probably the case of if it's not broke, then don't fix it.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the advice they gave to me as a parent to a to a child with stoma is if everything's working fine, they've got a good quality of life, don't mess with it because you can do more harm than good.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: So um, I see I use seals.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: I've always been a big advocate for seals because my stoma, so it's a bit weird with dips and lumps.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, how did the seals come about?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know or is it equan cohesive slims were one of the first.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's the small, thick seals, and then there's a larger, sort of 10 centimetre diameter thinner seals, and they were the original ones.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um whether the whether the I will tell you the correct story or not, this is my version of the story.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whether Dad would give you exactly the same story or not, I'm not sure, but you he's not here, so you can hear mine.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and really, so he he was developing the urostomy pouch and he needed an adhesive.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, cohesive was his attempt at an adhesive to make the bag stick to the skin.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, in actual fact, his he does, even though he was kind of great at developing products, um, and hopefully he won't listen to this because I'm about to be a bit critical of him, he tends to overcomplicate things sometimes.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the urostomy pouch itself was uber complicated and complex, um, but it had this the cohesive, which is now the seals, as the hydrocoloride on the on the pouch.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and people who tried the bags were kind of going, okay, bags, all right.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the adhesive is so skin-friendly.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And compared to the other adhesives that were out there, these kind of gelatin, pectin-based, less moldable ones, um this was really, really skin-friendly.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: But because of the texture and the nature of seals, they're soft and mouldable.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have that as your hydrocolloid in the bag, obviously it kind of spreads a little bit and moves about.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, where that uh let's call it texture of adhesive doesn't necessarily work to be the base hydrocolloid on the pouch.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was really great for moulding around the stoma to prevent leaks and prohibit um create an extra layer of protection before putting the bag on top.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So he took this adhesive that he developed and just cut it into circles, into doughnut shapes.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And those were the first uh real seals.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: That would have been he the company started, I said, in 1973, 74, 75.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: He'd sort of built, he'd converted the house into a factory, and he didn't sell one product before 1979, took four or five years.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sold a few bags, but it was really the sort of 79, 80, 81 before um we really came to the conclusion that this the seals should be a separate product in their own right.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And again, there was nothing like that at the time.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: There was only the pastes that we talked about earlier, and they contained alcohol, so they stung when you put them on red excoriated skin.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whereas the seals were really, really friendly.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that it was that original hydrocolloid that was cohesive that became the seals, and that's that's how they were developed.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, we we just had he was very much um at that stage then um a business making one product, just the seals.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um where he was very into developing product and manufacturing product, he wasn't really um interested in the sort of commercial side of selling it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So he sold it to one company in the UK here um from Northern Ireland or based in Northern Ireland, and um they really started to develop the sales for those products right up until um sort of 1999 uh early 1990s.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a bit of growth in the business after that, you know.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's how the original seal was developed.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've had other iterations since then, which we can go on and talk about.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not changed since that kind of first seal.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: The ri the original recipe for for cohesive is still exactly the same formulation and recipe that we have today, 50 50 years later.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: And when did Econ first develop the disposable bags?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because that was another game changer.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you mean the pelican bags?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are you talking so uh originally my father started off making a Eurostomy bag?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: In reality, they kind of petered out and it just became a seal company.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh you at the start you talked about Eakin and Pelican and Respond.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: The original company was Ecan based out of out of Northern Ireland.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, really, for many years it was effectively a one-product company.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was just the seals.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But as we then grew and expanded and started to sell our seals internationally, and they got a a quite a good reputation, you know, then there was kind of the pressure of 80% of 80% of the the seals that were being sold were ECAN seals at the time.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, originally they'd have been 100% because you know we invented the seals.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, so we were they were the only seals out there as more and more of our our um other of the other stoma supply companies came up with their own seals.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you're you know they they they joined uh the market as well, so the uh the proportion reduces.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, we're still we still like to pride ourselves as being kind of the original and the best.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we've we've added new seals like the free seal to the to the range um more recently.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But to your point just about the the bags, we were very much just a seal company.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we we were we were very lucky.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: We worked well closely with uh stoma nurses and with product users like yourselves, and and really developed a very positive reputation for the quality of the product to the extent that um you know very often we'd be asked, Well, why do you just make seals?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you not make bags?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and just around about the same time, a small company in Cardiff called Pelican Healthcare, which really focused only on making bags, and were actually, I think, one of the first companies to make soft convex pouches was available and we was was on the market and we bought that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when Eakin and Pelican became part of this ECAN healthcare business.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then obviously you're talking about how you get your prescriptions and things like that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Respond is obviously our our um award-running customer delivery service.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's you took up you joined with Pelican, wasn't it, in 2007?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: 2017, yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was like two years before most owner surgery.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a geek, I'm a nurse, clever.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm just being nerds.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: When um when you were growing up, obviously seeing your your dad start to evolve with all this and make headway.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_04: When did you, Jeremy, decide, right, I want a piece of this?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 1992.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: See, I know that date.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did a I did a uh uni degree in business studies and actually went to work for an aircraft manufacturer in Belfast.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: It made wings for airplanes.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and after seeing them making those wings, don't fly on a fucker 100 aircraft.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they make them anymore.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um anyway, that's another that's a whole different podcast.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I got a job in there, absolutely hated it, couldn't wait to get out of it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time, unemployment was fairly high, it was hard to get a job.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And dad was thinking of um starting to expand the business internationally.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the re the module in my course that I really loved the thought of was international trade.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of went, Dad, I could do that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and uh yeah, so that I started.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was literally only myself and him in the office at the time, and one other lady that was bookkeeper, so it was just the three of us, and I joined in 92 and started to sell um, it was just the seals in that those days internationally.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Before that, they were only available in the UK and Ireland.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I my job was then to kind of find distribute it internationally and and start to do that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, 1992.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: Gosh, and for you to see that to now where you are today, that's huge.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's great.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: What a legacy.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm very proud of what we've done, but down to just a brilliant team of people.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: We've been so lucky the team we've got working with us.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say, so if you were to ever face having stoma surgery, would you have preferred to have had it back then or would you prefer to have it now?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: If if that were to happen.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Not that it will just, you know.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, good question.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's oh, there's bound to be a right answer to this question.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: There is no right or wrong answer, really.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's pros and cons.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think in terms of what's available, in terms of products, in terms of of support.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: The home delivery companies now respond.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're they're great.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can get your products just like that.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: They've got great customer service teams.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can call in a stomach nurse at any time.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that reassurance is there.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing that's uh that's great at the moment is the work that you guys are doing, the being out there.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's you guys are really knocking down barriers in terms of of trying to get rid of that taboo.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that from that perspective, it's it would be the the answer is now.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I um I feel a little bit uh sorry for the our colleagues that are working in the NHS at the moment.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: We all know the state of the NHS, um, and that impacts um not the care that the stoma nurses give, they still do a absolutely phenomenal job, but the conditions that they're working under, and I think you know, back in the 70s, I'm I'm gonna guess you didn't get your stoma one day and get thrown out of hospital three or four days later.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, you know, I I bet the stays in the hospital give you that little bit of extra time to to recover and become aware.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think from the healthcare system, and it's no disrespect to anybody working in it at the moment, I think that was maybe slightly better.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, with the technology and the advances and uh customer service and products and everything, I think definitely today, don't underestimate what you guys are doing.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: You you are your change leaders.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean bag changing.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that you are the fact that you are generally gigglers.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, the fact that you know your social media presence that is breaking down boundaries for you know, most people with a stoma at the moment are not flashing their bags on social media.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think we But by you doing that, you're breaking down taboos.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, so many people with stomas are are hidden away.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you we hear stories of people that haven't left the house in 20 years.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, see that that's hard.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: That was heartbreaking the survey, 4% of people.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, so so the fact that you guys are out there, you know, as I say, you know, proud, just saying saying it as it is, talking about the challenges, but also talking about life goes on and it's it's okay, yeah, is is phenomenal, and that is changing it for generations of people to come.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do not underestimate the good you guys are doing.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because um I genuinely mean that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because that makes such a difference.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Making it acceptable is probably the wrong term, but you I think you know what I'm trying to say.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not something you need to hide.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: No, but at the same time, it's because of companies like yours and the people and companies that you've chose to work with that are more patient-centric, that want to listen to the patients and help the patients rather than profit margins, is obviously all companies have got the profit, but coming across Pelican and responding equin as ambassadors, if some if another company come to us, we wouldn't go with another company.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we've both had that, haven't we?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: We we have, yeah, you know, and there's a reason why we don't go is because of what you do, what you give us.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of love and mutual admiration in this room, isn't there?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it's good.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's so true though.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I mean, things with like the free seal and being in the the free seal is so a thinner version of the cohesive, or even such as with the Moda V with the pelican bags.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, with that being so patient-led with the whole RD and the process of from the bag being thought about to the concept of it actually being made, it's been patient-centric rather than company-centric.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the DNA of who we are.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you go right the way back to the start of our conversation, you know, um this business was started to help one person and and a group of customers, you know, that we knew.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: We knew their names.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: They come in, you know, they weren't just anonymous faces.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you know it's that that's that is at the core of everything we do.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: We we we were formed and grew um on the basis of our closeness to the people that use our products, yeah.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's something that just absolutely stays dear to our hearts.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and just bragging a little bit here.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Even this morning, uh Rachel, you and I were at an event just to open up our new UK warehouse, um, and we had all our staff from our Cardiff site there.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and I mean it it it wasn't all about business strategy and it wasn't all about what's going on.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was just reminding our colleagues of what we're all about and what we're doing and who it's for.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: And the warmth that was in that's it's a it was a factory, a massive factory, but the warmth that was in that it's like was it's like a family and a support system though, isn't it?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's it is but it's it's it's just making sure and and and that that that you guys are are you guys drive us.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you motivate us and and it's um without you guys we don't exist.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um for us to get better, but for us to get better and continue.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Continue to thrive and improve, we need to get even closer to you.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to get even closer to the stoma nurses who are supporting you and using our products.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: As I said before, we provide the tools.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: The stoma nurses use effectively use those tools to to support you.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: If we make the wrong tool set, it's no use.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it's like the so when you did the RD for the Moda V.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: I don't has there been another bag that's had that much patient involvement in such early stages?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Not that I know of, I might be wrong.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can't speak for for other companies, but that was right the way back to basics.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: We looked at every single aspect.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean we call that.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: Was it start a lockdown when I can't remember?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: It was.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: It was because we didn't the whole launch was done during lockdown.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it was, and I we had to like, you know, we were testing the product and we were giving our true views and that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I must have cried in half of them videos.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: I had an ear infection.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: There's a video of me wearing a hat with tissue stuffed in my ear because I suffer with lock jaw and my jaw had gone, as my ear had gone.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: And there's videos of me going to RT.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_04: But no, um, yeah, and I remember using the you using the Moda V and I'd used other bags before, and just the comfort, the feel of the fabric, it was really emotional.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: And it was, it I I literally cried on camera and I wasn't gonna send it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then I thought, actually, maybe they might want to see this to realise just how, you know, important and impactful their work is because I it's like this morning at the event, you very kindly invited my son to come and open your new factory, and that was well, we were all crying, and it was it was it was wonderful.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_04: But um, yeah, like you just you just want to go up to every single person and go, thank you.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_04: Do you realise what you're doing?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have any idea?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_04: Because I mean, I don't think they do, but we all get checked, we we all get checked on.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not well at the moment, you're pregnant, and we still get WhatsApp messages and emails.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Are you okay?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are you sure you're okay?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just about the work, okay.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do do bits and pieces for the work wise, but we still get checked on.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's not all about, oh, what are you doing on social media?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: How are you feeling?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a nice feeling to have, and it has been that way for me for like the last.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: How many years have you been involved with this lot?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_04: How many years?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're the OG, aren't you?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: I am the OG.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh 2017.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: So the what the when the vitamin E first came out.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, even that was two years after we started uh developing Moda V.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you might have tried it during lockdown, but we did a lot of back to basics work into that one.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: So you were just talking about seals.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: We both use free seal.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I use I still use a mixture of the free seal though and the cohesive slim just because of Buddy the Cyst and time of the month, my skin decides to go in a lot more, so I needed a bit more of a wedge.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then I use the free seal for the other three weeks of the month.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you use a whole cocktail then.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: So where so where did the idea of free seal come from?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: How did that develop from your first ones to this one?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the the concept of how the the cohesive seal worked was again, I told you earlier on this is the same formulation that's been around for for 40, 50 years.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the way that works, it's it's it's like a sacrificial material, it breaks down.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, what the the the way the original cohesive seal was meant to work, sorry to get a little bit technical here, you can all start to glaze over and fall asleep.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the event that that stoma output comes in contact with your skin, it's it's a little bit like an appy rash for you for those people that don't have a stoma, and it just literally burns away at the skin.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens is that the seal is there and it's designed so that if if there's any uh element of leakage or stoma output, it actually starts to attack the seal instead of the skin.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you can actually see if you if you if you wear a cohesive seal and you have a little bit of output from your stomach, if you take the bag off, that seal will actually have eroded away and it leaves a bit of a residue.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it was it was working it by protecting the skin by almost sacrificing itself to erode away.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the more modern competitor seals were more like gelatin or pectin-based, and they acted a little bit more just like a washer and a tap.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they literally just said, okay, we're we're plugging a leak here.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so we we felt that actually we needed to give people a choice.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So where cohesive was breaking down and effectively sacrificing itself, the free seal formulation is one, it's more integrated, it stays intact, but it still has that real skin-friendly formulation of adhesive, so it's kind of a almost a hybrid of the two, and that's that's where that's come about.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's quite a recent development.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: I have to say though, the magic of the seals just from so I have high output, but my output is light liquid.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: So when it's light liquid, because of the rate that it's coming out, before I used to use the free seals, my output actually used to eat away at the seal on the base plate.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I used to get leaks because the hydrocholoid on the base plate used to get eaten by my output.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: So sore skin.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and look, that's that's that's a question that we would get asked all the time.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know, how long is my wear time with this bag?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: If I use a seal, how much wear time will I get?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's no right answer to that.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's different from every single question.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on your output.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: But what we've always said is like a seal will help to prevent leaks and extend the wear time.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, for somebody might get three or four days out of a pouch with a seal, they might get five, six days out of a pouch.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody that only gets two hours out of a pouch with a seal, they might get four hours.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who have to change their bags four or five, six times a day, depending on their output.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've met all kinds of people from different companies.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: Is that more for the colostomy side of things, though, obviously, with the other thing?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: No, colostomy.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Colostomy will will probably be a lighter seal user.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's further up the digestive system.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: So a G genostomy or something like that, where you've got really liquid output and really quite quite aggressive stomach output that it would that would that would effectively burn your skin.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's what I used to do with Jake.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_04: So he used to lose four litres of stool a day from from um his eyeliostomy.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: And again, I didn't know seals existed.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_04: I did not know they were there.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, his skin was awful.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, so someone with that level of output and probably very liquid output.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that's where your skin's gonna be very, very vulnerable.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um you guys know more about that than I do.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's just obviously when uh discovering the seals, going from having to change a bag every 24 hours to then changing every five to six days was a game changer for me.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Your bag lasts you five to six days?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: It did, and then Buddy the Syst came along and decided that it didn't want to do five days, so I average a bag change every other day now.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes daily, it just depends, just because I keep getting the blockages.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: So So, what would it look like when you took it off after five to six days?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: Would it be completely like to no way, like you know, something I'm alien, you know if the seal's gone should you start to get a bit itchy?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, the itch, the itch.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the question.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know when to change your bag?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you start to get that tingle, that itch, that burn, yeah, that's when you get you need to change.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_04: That's where confidence is king.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you've got to really build that confidence in your product.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose you guys can educate me much more in terms of how you develop that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but this is where you guys having a great RD team and being patient-led really helps us to be able to advise other people as ambassadors.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because if we don't have faith in a product, then some if you're not putting across that faith, then somebody else is not necessarily going to have that faith in that.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it it really is a case of trial and error and learning to trust what you're using.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, we're you're put every time you put that bag on, you are putting your trust in that product that it's gonna work.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: You're not gonna be in a situation where you've got poo all down you, you're not gonna be embarrassed, you're not gonna be vulnerable.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: And let's face it, it might happen now and then.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: You covered your dog in it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: What did you do this morning?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: Last night?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I knew I shouldn't have eaten it.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: I've got an issue with food and causing blockages at the moment because the cyst keeps pushing my intestines in and causing a blockage.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I ate raw carrot last night, might have had some cucumber.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh you rebel, might have had some teeth.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Might have mistakes.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: So when I woke up this morning and I put my hand down and went, oh god, you had triggers, trigger warning.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Ben Ben might have accidentally got a little bit on it, and then Ruby was like, and the dog jumped on the bed, and of course, with both hands, and we touched the dog.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I was actually having a shower with my dog at half past seven this morning.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard of anybody showing with her dog before.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: For those of you, if you follow my my Instagram stories, my puppy has gone from being apricot coloured to champagne coloured as she's grown into her adult coat.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Different colour this morning.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, she was definitely it was a hint of um hint of um steak colour and um oh oh god.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, showering with the dog at half past seven this morning.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Living the dream.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: But this is the thing, and we have to post about the realities of stomach life, but the problem is is with things like leaks, it's people are always so forward to blame the product when nine times out of ten it's not the product's fault, it's what the patient's doing.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like I mean, you knew yourself.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you go rogue and eat a carrot?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_04: Why?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you do that?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a carrot, it wasn't chocolate.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you why did you risk yourself with a carrot?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: What was it about that carrot?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: Because it was tasty.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's not tasty.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: What does a carrot what are you doing to you?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: When it's with steak and it's in a wrap with a bit of saute sauce.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I might be a wrong one.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: No comment.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_04: But no, I think we a lot of us with stomas can relate to that where you're going along your day, living your life, and all of a sudden you feel like you've wet yourself.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you've you don't have to answer that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: But anyway.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not sober.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_04: And you just and you know that moment where you're like, I I need to put my hand there to check, but you know when you put your hand there, you're gonna touch Pooh, and you're like, oh, and you put it off and you put it off, and then you touch, and you're like, no!
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, do you know what hate that?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: Touch wood.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so lucky.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: In general, like out and about and out in public or going out for an evening or even staying overnight.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Nine times out of ten, I trust what I'm using.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have an issue.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: It tends to be I've caused the issue with regards to things coming off.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: But well, my output pancake, so it pushes my bag off.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's my fault.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: I should have drunk more water before I went to bed.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you're an OG, you should really know better.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's embarrassing.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but there's a point in time where we just get to, you just get to what's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I um yeah, so it happened to me.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: It I I don't even have a leak once a month.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: I don't it's no, it's very rare now, but the other day it did because I lost the seals.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: I did not have a seal.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: We're having worked in in the house, I didn't know where they were, and I thought, right, I it was late, I couldn't get a delivery the next day, but fair play too long, my.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Did you get your seals?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: Spoke to the lovely James, and I've already embarrassed him once on this podcast, and I didn't even think he'd listen to it, but he does, so I'm gonna do it again.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, James.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and he got it to me within 24 hours.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_04: He got a delivery, what a guy.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, and it was all because I didn't use that seal, and I was working away on my laptop, and I felt that warm, non-comforting feeling running down my legs, and it had happened, and I leaked and I got up to my other arm.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, he was talking to me, and I thought, has he not realized there is a massive patch of poo through my dungarees?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_04: And then I went, uh, hello.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: And he looked at it, oh, denim's the worst as well.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and yeah, that's when you do the walk of shame at the stairs and yeah, but yeah, all because I couldn't get my hands on a seal, but no, James fixed it.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hopefully we came to the rescue with the seal and the response.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: The correct response from respond.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: But look, there you guys are doing it again.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just by talking about leakage, it's a thing that happens.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're I don't I think you know, I don't want to use the word normalizing, but you're you're making it it's a reality.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: It happens talking about it.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know that's people poo themselves, don't they?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_04: Humans without stomas have accidents.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: No one can who can say they've got through life without pooing themselves for some reason.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just in a different place, in a different way.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I suppose It was that dodgy prawn I had a few years ago.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: We'll not talk about that now.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say, on the note of dodgy on the note of dodgy prawns, um the the growth and the success of Ekin, I mean, how do you feel that that is now compared to then or has using ambassadors and obviously coming part of Ekin, Pelican and Respond, is that all helping the growth and the business as a whole?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, undoubtedly.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And look, you know, we've we've kind of we've we've done gone through a process of bringing our businesses together so Eakin and Pelican and Respond under this um the the Eakin Healthcare name.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And look, we're we're very lucky and we're very proud that it's operating in you know sort of 50-60 countries around the world now.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um it it has been successful because of our relationship with you, our relationship with the stoma nurses.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: We we really believe in in partnerships.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, our our strap line underneath the Econ Healthcare local is working together, improving lives.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that working together is not just our teams working together inside the business, it's us working with our suppliers, it's us us working with um stoma nurses, it's us working with you guys, it's uh ambassadors working with us.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this works if there's a team effort and you need every you know, hospitals talk about multidisciplinary teams.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly the same in our business.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have representatives of suppliers, manufacturers, product users, stoma nurses, all working together, really understanding each other's world to make sure that we get it right.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and it's and it also you know what?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: It makes it a fantastic job.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: It really does.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, we're we're not just selling mugs or car tars or something like that.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's something where you really see that human side.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um you talked about uh our team in Cardiff this morning meeting Jake.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: He was absolutely the star.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: How loud was the round of applause he got from our colleagues?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_04: Me and my memoir estate.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was just brilliant.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: That that is what makes everything we do worthwhile.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Meeting you, meeting Jake, you know, even though we don't support Man United.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_04: He's got time to change, he's only young.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's what makes us work successfully together.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's teamwork, and as I said, our I said our strap line, working together, improving lives is just how we succeed.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very exciting, you know.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've we've just invested an awful lot in RD, and we're really really lucky we've just got support from the Northern Ireland government to to give us a grant for an ostomy centre of excellence for our RD.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that'll really help us to to work again even closer with you guys to learn about hydrocolloids, about bags, about how the digital world will impact that, for example, all these kind of futuristic things.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: So, where do you see the future in Stoma Cay?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a crystal ball.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, but I wish I knew.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whenever I started in the business 30 years ago, there was there was all the talk about oh, stomas won't exist in X number of years.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Time stomas are going to exist for a good long time.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well that was a lie.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, I you know, because stu the stoma is not a condition in itself.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, the stoma very is really a solution to a lot of chronic conditions.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it and actually the stoma, even though they don't behave sometimes, really facilitates people to be able to live their lives.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think f for a multitude of conditions that you know you and your other guests, sort of Philip, uh Mo, Ant, um, you know, uh all have sort of different, potentially different reasons for having a stoma.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Those reasons may change, but I think a stoma is is gonna be around for a long time.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um and I don't actually see the technology changing in terms of you know, you've got a stoma that doesn't have a muscle, so you're gonna need a bag to collect the output.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: That fundamental is gonna be around for quite a while.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: But how the how the products, how the service, how everything is enhanced in the future should should hopefully continue to improve.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think realistically, with with the kind of products that we have available now, stoma life now compared to what stomer life was in the 70s when people started looking at making disposable bags and trying to get rid of the rubber bags.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Things have come such a long way in such a short period of time.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously, being part of the community that we're part of, I know with regards to them trying to do continent stoners and metal meshes and things like that.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: For the majority of us, it's not an option because of autoimmune issues, rejection issues.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, the stoma for the majority of us is the best course of action to have a better quality of life.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I'm sorry to keep banging on about this.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the biggest changes in recent years and which is gonna happen, is you guys.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you guys are going to make it, let's call it acceptable.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: It still is it still astounds me that you guys trust even too.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: What are you thinking?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of when I say you, I mean you in general.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not specifically you two guys.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just you know just that, you know, social media, being able to talk about it so people don't feel they have to hide.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's okay to be on the beach with your stoma bag out.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to go on the bus knowing it might leak, or whatever.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: That uh giving people that extra layer of confidence to be able to leave the house.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: To to try and lead a a a normal life out and about, I think is is really one of the biggest transformations that I've seen in the last five, six years.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: It has literally been that period of time.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: It has been.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, you know, I I look you you guys will know all the influencers better than me, because I'm an old man, but you know, there probably used to be one or two.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I think it's important as well to note that if someone's listening or watching this and doesn't have that confidence yet, that's okay as well.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: It will come, whether it takes you a couple of months, a couple of years.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_04: You do need to do it when it feels right for you and in your own time.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: But hopefully what we're doing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be helping them to develop that confidence.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I I actually think go going back to your original question, sorry I've waffled for about 10 minutes, but your original question of what's really changing, I think that's one of the biggest transformations is what Instagram, TikTok, whatever else is coming next and social media, what that what that is doing to help people, I think is phenomenal.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we'd like to say massive thank you, Jeremy, for talking to us, crazy people.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a blast.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you so much.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_04: Keep doing what you're doing.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, exactly.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, but thanks so much for giving us the opportunity, and I really appreciate what you and everybody else is doing.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's amazing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, we'd like to say thank you to everybody for listening to Be On the Pouch.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you have enjoyed listening, and we hope you've learned a lot about the history of Egan and the history of Stomas in general, and we will see you next time.