Latest / The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show / The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Are Data Center Fears Costing Michigan Billions? Mark Mills Explains

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The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Are Data Center Fears Costing Michigan Billions? Mark Mills Explains · The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tudor Dixon podcast. We are going to
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: have a great discussion today on data centers. Mark Mills,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the executive director of the National Center for Energy Analytics
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: is here. And we're gonna discuss this because I just
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: don't feel like we're getting the full story on data centers.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: As we head into election day, we've got all of
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: these elected or wanting to be elected officials who are
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: saying they're shutting down data center deals. There's going to
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: be a moratorium on data centers. And I wanna know, okay,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Is that the right approach? Does that protect us or
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: does that harm us? Because I don't feel like we
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: have a lot of experts out there talking to us
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: about this. I also think that this is a time
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: when we need to know exactly what's happening in these buildings.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: We're being told that there are real dangers. What are
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: the real dangers? So Mark is going to tell us
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: everything in just a few minutes. But first, I want
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: to talk about some striking news that came out on Friday.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's a huge deal. It turns out there's
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: been a breakthrough in one of the world's deadliest conflicts,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: and there's been an unexpected diplomatic role for our first lady.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Reports are saying that Melania Trump has helped secure a
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: temporary ceasefire between Russia and Ukraine in a war-ravaged Ukrainian city.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: This is I mean, impressive. How can we not be
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: completely amazed by this? What she's doing is opening the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: door for humanitarian aid and civilian evacuations for residents who
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: are trapped in the middle of a war. This could
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: literally mean the difference between life and death for these people.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: The White House says the first lady helped negotiate this
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: temporary ceasefire in Oleshky. It's a southern Ukrainian city that
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: is under Russian occupation right now. And the residents are
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: facing a growing humanitarian crisis. So the agreement is scheduled
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: to begin on October 29th. It calls for a temporary
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: halt to military action in the city so that humanitarian
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: aid can get in and the civilians can be evacuated
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: through a designated safe passage. Before the war, this is
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: pretty shocking information. This city was a city of roughly
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: 24,000 people. Today, estimates are 1,700 to 2,000 people. 24,000
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: to 1,700 to 2,000. And this is about 50 children.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Right now, they are low on everything. Food, medicine, clean water, electricity,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: everything is in short supply. Melania Trump says the agreement
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: will allow these civilian representatives from both countries, Russia and Ukraine,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: to come in and assess the residents' need. And if
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: they need to, get them back to where they want
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: to go, whether it's Ukrainian territory or Russian-controlled territory, it's
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: going to be safe. Remember, the first lady previously worked
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: to reunite Ukrainian children who were displaced by the war
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: with their families. She worked with Russia. The White House
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: says that that effort helped establish a communications channel between
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Russia and Ukrainian officials. It was used in this initiative.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: So that, working with the kids, has helped her to
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: work on a ceasefire in this city. So she has
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: a unique upbringing that we don't talk about enough. Melania
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: grew up in Slovenia when it was a part of
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: communist Yugoslavia. Slovenia became an independent country in 1991. Melania
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: moved to the United States in 1996, so most of
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: her upbringing was in a communist country. And perhaps it's
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: that upbringing that makes her uniquely qualified to broker this
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: type of diplomatic deal. And I'm just sitting here thinking,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: what if this were a Democrat first lady? how much
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: would we be, everybody would be talking about how amazing
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: this is. They would, first of all, be talking about
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: how amazing it is that she is an immigrant, that
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: she speaks multiple languages. She's able to work with the
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Putin government. She's reuniting children with their families. I mean,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: people would be talking about it. Hillary Clinton, what did
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: she do? I mean, she went on to be secretary
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: of state and said, At this point, what does it
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: matter anyway when talking about Benghazi? I mean, she was
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: not solving things, sadly. She should have been. Melania Trump
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to be. But I think she has a
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: heart of gold. And I think she doesn't get enough credit. Like,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: I see the way she acts with children and interacts
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: with children when they come to the White House. And
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: it is truly maternal. You can see her love for kids.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: You can see that she wants to help. So I
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: say what a blessing to have this deal done. And
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: to me, this is really big news today. But I
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: still want to go back to the data centers because
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: that's been big news this entire election cycle. So stick
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: around because we're going to get the lowdown on data
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: centers right after this. All right, today is the day
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: that we are going to be talking data centers. I
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: know you all are like, no, we hate data centers.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: And that's become like a common discussion. And everybody who
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: listens to this podcast knows that I come from the
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: manufacturing world. So I do see this a little differently,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: but I wanted to have an expert here. So we
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: have Mark Mills with us. He is the Executive Director
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: of the National Center for Energy Analytics. a distinguished senior
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: fellow at the Texas public policy foundation and a faculty
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: fellow at Northwestern university school of engineering. He also writes
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: for the city journal. So Mark, we have to know
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: this is like the next revolution in the, in this
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: country that you had the industrial revolution, the tech, the
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: technology revolution. This is like the next level and we're
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: all scared.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, People, there's a lot of hype, but hype
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: comes around because when something is consequential, it creates hype.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: So what we're seeing, I think, is an echo or
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: consequence of the fact that it is a big deal.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: In fact, you did mention in your kind introduction that,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: and of course I have to say this, I wrote
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: a book about exactly this subject called The Cloud Revolution.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: And the book came out just before ChatGPT was released.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And my publisher did not want me to use the
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: words artificial intelligence on the book's title because he said,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: nobody would know what you were talking about. It would
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: go on computer science bookshelves, you know, take it out.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: So I did. Obviously, when you write about the cloud,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: which is about data centers, I was writing a lot
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: about artificial intelligence. It's not a new phenomenon. We've been
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: using artificial intelligence in computing for decades. In fact, it's
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: not a new thing, nor are data centers. So maybe
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: it's helpful. to explain what a data center is, because
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: most people that I encounter in my life, and I've
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: been around data centers for a couple of decades, working
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: in the industry, it's associated with designing the power systems
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: for them. We're using a data center right now. Everybody
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: watching or listening to this is using a data center.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: When you shop on one click with whatever, whether you
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: like Wayfair or Amazon, you're using a data center. When
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: you look at your health records, when you do social media,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: most people will even still confess that they do. Whenever
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: you stream movies on Netflix or Amazon, you're using a
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: data center. The data center is a... In fact, it's
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: kind of funny. About a decade ago, Google came up
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: with a name for a data center. They called it
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: a warehouse scale computer. The name didn't stick. It's still
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: used in engineering circles. And they essentially were saying, in
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: order to do all these things, Google search, shopping online, well,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: what's happening? I mean, what When you're doing this, when
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: you click your phone and go, buy now, or I
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: like the color of this, what in fact is happening
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: where your phone is a radio, as most people know,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: but I've forgotten, it's a radio. It's just like a
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: walkie talkie. The radio talks to a cell tower, that's
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: a radio, and connects to a data center. So the
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: things that you ask about or are looking at exist
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: in computers that do you know, what's called servers that
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: send information out, collect information, keep the data processed. That's
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: where all, where you do a mapping, when you're trying
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: to use any kind of mapping program, all the analytics
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: are in computers somewhere in a data center. But the
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: more people use it, like this is a, falls into
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: the technical term of no duh. If you, millions and
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: millions of people using the data that they want constantly,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: it takes a lot of computers. And they have to
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: be somewhere. Well, they're not in your backyard. They're not
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: in your car. Cars can contain computers, of course, but
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: they're tiny ones. This involves massive use of computation. And
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: they exist in these big buildings, warehouse scale, their size
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: of warehouses, their size of a Walmart, size of shopping malls.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: They're big buildings, just jammed full of computers and communications
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: and memory storage equipment to do all the stuff we
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: take for granted. That's part of our commerce. You know,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of people, heck, I think it's now about
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: a third of the population of the United States, has
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: never lived in a time without data centers. I just think,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think about, I had a cell
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: phone that I dropped in a lake and that was it.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: That was the last time I was ever gonna see
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: that cell phone. And I remember thinking, I've lost everything.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: And I went to the store and they gave me
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: a new cell phone and it was exactly the same.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I opened it up. It was the exact same. So
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: my information obviously is not in my phone. It's someplace else.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: So that when I lose my phone and I go
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: get a new one and I just am so happy
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: that it's all exactly the same, it was stored somewhere.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Well, and there is some information that can live in
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: your phone, some private security things that Apple is particularly
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: good at that. But The stuff you're talking about, text, emails, pictures,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: all lives in the, quote, cloud. It caused a funny word.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I titled my book The Cloud Revolution because that's what
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: it's called because it's sort of remote. and big. Clouds
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: are big, they're remote. And so I think engineers come
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: up with terms to explain architectures, and that's different than
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: having a computer on your desktop. And your desktop computer
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: stores lots of stuff in the hard drive or whatever,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: or flash drives. But if you're smart, you're backing it
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: up protecting it in the cloud. And in the cloud,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: it's not stored in just one data center. It's redundantly
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: stored in usually two or three. So if something happens,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: if there's an accident, thing goes on fire, or, you know,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: an earthquake, something happens, you have your data. So that's
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the predicate, right? There's been data centers for a long time.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: We've had, there's thousands of data centers in the United
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: States before ChatGPT came on the scene.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: So, but here's an issue. People hear about data centers
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: coming to their town. They freak out.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: They're loud.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: They use a lot of water. They use a lot
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: of energy. They're huge facilities with not that many jobs.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: So how do you respond to that?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Well, first, one other thing. There is a distinction with
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: a difference now with AI. AI, because to do things
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: that we think will be useful and in many cases
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: already are useful, Artificial intelligence is extremely computer intensive in
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: the same way that, I guess the easiest way to
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: be analogized is if you want to do something that
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: doesn't use a lot of energy when you transport humans,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: you could take a train or bus. If you want
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: to go there faster, if you want something more, you
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: take an airplane. Sure, it uses more energy. Speed and
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: all those features in the physics of the world we
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: live in require more energy. AI to do inference and
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: all these magical things just uses more energy. So the
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: data sets are bigger and use more energy. And that's
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: what's triggered this reaction. They're really big. So what do
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I say when it comes next? Well, first of all,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: let's just dispose of the three big tropes, right? Uses
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: too much energy, uses too much water, uses too much land,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: or maybe the four tropes. It's noisy. So it's really easy.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: First of all, building anything that's big is noisy. So
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: let's just stipulate, and it's perfectly reasonable to object to
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: big construction projects in your neighborhood. This is true whether
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: it's a steel mill or a shopping mall or a warehouse,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: but that's not unique about data centers. Once they're built
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: and running, they're not noisy. The noisy part of a
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: data center is the same thing as a noisy part
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: of any town or city. The electrical substation can make
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: a hum if you're near it, but that's true for
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: all substations, for everything that we have in our society.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: So you have sighting issues. Where will I put that?
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: But otherwise, the building has cooling fans on it that
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: are no different than cooling fans on skyscrapers or shopping malls.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: They're just fans that move air. So the noise thing
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: is a canard. The water thing is also equally silly. Yes,
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: they use water to cool things. Of course, anything that
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: produces heat has to be cooled with water. But at
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: the high level, they don't have to net use water.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: They can do what's called closed-loop cooling. It's what your
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: car does.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Is that a newer thing?
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: No, they've been around for a long time. What happens
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: is in the permitting, if you go to an area
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: to build something and you need cooling water, whether it's
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: a factory or a data center or a power plant,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: you would ideally locate it where there's plenty of water
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: and you could do what's called once-through cooling because there's
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: lots of water. That's true in lots of the country.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: If you go to a water-stressed area, you build closed-loop cooling. No.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: just recycles the water. And like your car does as
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: a radiator, you have radiators that cool the water and
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: reuse it. That's not new. And in fact, in most
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: regions that are water-stressed, closed-loop cooling is required and used.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: But if you count all the water used for those
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: that don't have closed-loop cooling, golf courses alone use 30
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: times more water than data centers, even if we build
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: all the data centers we plan. And the biggest use
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: for water is agriculture, not industry, to grow food. If
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: you really were worried about water, the people who are
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: worried about water, they ought to be opposing ethanol mandates
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: for gasoline. It takes about 200 times more water per
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: gallon of ethanol compared to a gallon of gasoline to
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: make the fuel. So if we really wanted to save water,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: we'd oppose that. So, you know, there's something political here
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: going on.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: But does the water get contaminated? Is there any risk
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: of any environmental risk from this water?
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: The water is, first, if it's closed loop. It's in
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: a loop, so it's not going anywhere. If it's open loop,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: you're not using the water to do an industrial process.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: It's a computer like you, it doesn't look like the
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: computer on your desk, but if you ripped open the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: computer that you have, looked at the boards, those boards
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: are stacked in racks that look like a refrigerator-sized rack.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: And then you could cool them with water cooling, but
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: it's not running through chemicals or a chemical process. So
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: it's not a contamination issue. On land use, if we
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: talk about the size of these buildings, just as, again,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: a calibration point, they are big buildings. But even if
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: we build all the data centers that are planned, there's
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: 100 times more square footage in warehouses alone in the
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: United States, 100 times more. Warehouses are big, too. That's
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: why it's called a warehouse-scale computer. They're the size of
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: a warehouse. But there's 100 times more square footage in
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: warehouses nationally than we'll ever build in data centers if
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: they're all built as planned. So that doesn't hold up.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: And then the claim, oh, they use too much power.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: It is true. They use lots of power. It's absolutely true.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Too much is a qualitative thing. If you look at
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: the data, first of all, where data centers have already
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: been built and try to correlate that with electric rates
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: for people who live in those areas, you'll find out
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: there's either no correlation, in fact, or where there are
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: more data centers, electric rates have actually been moderated or decreased.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: What the honest people are saying is if we power
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: these data centers with public power requiring the public to
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: pay for the power plants, then citizens will be paying
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: for the power for those data centers. That's true. But
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: that's not happening. It's not going to happen. No politician
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: is going to let that happen. No utility is going
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: to let that happen. So it's another canard. It's, in fact,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: not true.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: So then they have their own substation.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Well, if it's connected to the grid, they have their
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: own substation, which is a means to connect, whether it's
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: a steel mill or a data center, to the grid.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Those are the ways to convert the high voltage into
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: the lower power that's needed for a manufacturing facility. The
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: key issue is the data center operators need to pay
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: for the full costs of the power they use. And
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: they have two ways to do that. They can build
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: their own power plant entirely and not connect it to
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: the grid. And that's happening. A third or fourth of
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: all planned data centers are private grids. And this is
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: not a new phenomenon in the industrial world, as you
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: know from your family's history. Or they negotiate with the utility,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: which they'd rather do because they don't want to be
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: in the power plant business. If the utility has enough
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: power or can build it quickly enough, the data center
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: operator would frequently prefer that. But the negotiation evolves. The
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: operator of the data center to pay the entire costs,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: not just of the power plants, but the extra transmission,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: the control systems, everything. And this has already happened in
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: a number of regions. Georgia recently, for example, negotiated with Anthropic,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: put a massive data center campus in, in an industrial site.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: It's already an industrial site near the harbor of Savannah.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: So a big industrial site, they want to put more
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: big industrial buildings on an existing industrial site. Sounds like
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: a good plan, right? And they negotiated with Georgia Power,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: to pay for 100% of the costs and the future
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: costs and bonded it too. I mean, the utility can say,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: we'll do it for you if they're capable, but you
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: got to pay the future costs, the decommissioning costs. I mean,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: these are the kind of negotiations that are in fact
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: going on in the real world.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So this is what, from a Michigan standpoint, and I
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: think in most states is probably the same, There's been
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of complaint that these data centers have gone
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: into rural areas, but you're making an interesting point. I mean,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: in Flint, we have plenty of open factories that are
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: no longer running manufacturing. Why wouldn't the governor or somebody
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: in government here negotiate that these areas where we are
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: struggling with property taxes, we are struggling... And there is
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: a struggle for jobs. And I think there's a concern
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: that these don't bring a lot of jobs. But if
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: you are taking up this massive amount of space, you
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: are getting a massive amount of property taxes that could
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: go into schools, could go into after-school programs, could go
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: into job training programs. And I think that's where... You know,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: we have, I'll say in this state, we have both
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: gubernatorial candidates calling a moratorium on data centers right now.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: And it feels like, oh, gosh, could we be making
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: a mistake? Could Michigan be left behind in the areas
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: where we know we have manufacturing, you know, where we could?
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And I'll say this, in those areas, companies have been
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: shy about coming to those areas because of the sins
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: of the past environmentally. And so I do think there
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: is a negotiation with the state to say we come
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: together and this area gets taken over. But how do
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: these data centers make money? I mean, I'm assuming this
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: is like renting space, but renting space for like is
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Amazon pay? Are all of these companies renting space at
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: these data centers? Are they wealthy? Like, do they have
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the money to pay this for a community?
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Unsurprisingly, given your history and the world's politics and business,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: you're spot on. I mean, in a sense, the question
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: answers itself that, you know, could you do this? Of
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: course you could do this. You should do that. And
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: are you risking abandoning some opportunity for citizens and tax rates?
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Of course you are. We know where the data centers
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: already exist. Those counties have far lower tax rates by
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: 30 to 40 percent. So the economic benefits to the
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: county are where data centers locate when they pay their taxes,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: are enormous, not trivial, they're enormous. And in fact, I've proposed,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: and some data center operators are doing this, that they
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: could front load their taxes. They say, look, go to
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: the community and say, when we start construction, we'll prepay
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: our tax for the next year, once we have our permit,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: so that you can benefit immediately from the annoyance that
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: we're creating in the construction. That's the principal annoyance. So
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: huge local benefits. So you'd say, well, but what else
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: do I get out of it? Well, remember, no net
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: user of water, bring your own power, pay for your
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: own power. Does it create a huge quantity of jobs? Well, no,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: of course not. It's not a huge job creator. It
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: is for the construction site, which is not nothing, right? Look,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: what States fight over building highways for the jobs, okay?
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: We know this. Every state. And we all know that
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: when the highway's finished, the construction jobs are gone. Gee,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: what a shock. Same thing for data centers. But they
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: fight over the highway jobs. And knowing that the highway itself,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: what's the benefit of the highway? Because most people aren't
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: living locally that use interstate highways. They're transiting through. Well,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: the benefit is a lot of people come off the highways.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: You get local development for other things. It's true for
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: every construction project.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: But in an area where a data center goes in
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: where there are not high property taxes being paid, then
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: those construction jobs, once the data center is set, there's
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: more road construction jobs because then you can finally pay
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: to fix the roads.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Exactly. In fact, you're absolutely right. And you say that
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: in half and jest, but it's really true. What happens
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: once you generate the wealth is that you'll rebuild the schools.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: You'll rebuild not just roads, but the whole infrastructure and
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: many data center operators are helping rebuild the local water systems.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: So they say, if you think we're stressing it, we're
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: really good at water management because they're engineers. Let's look
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: at your water facility and we'll need to upgrade it.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: We'll pay to upgrade it. And those create jobs. But
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: the more important part, of course, is that the jobs
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: that it does create, and it does create jobs, permanent jobs,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: in the hundreds, not thousands. But in a rural community,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: you put 100 high-paying jobs into a rural community, is
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: everybody knows, you don't have to be an economist to
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: know this, the spillover effect of that is five to
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: 10 to one. It creates hundreds and hundreds of other
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: jobs that are in the economic ecosystem that all manufacturing.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Jensen Wang, the founder and CEO of NVIDIA, is trying
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: to get data centers that use AI called AI factories.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: That's the word he likes to use. They're AI factories.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: It's not a bad word because People are generally more
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: comfortable with factories because we have a lot more history
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: with them. He's technically correct. What AI does is it
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: takes raw material, which is data, and repackages it into
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: a high-value thing, assembles it electronically. But we do a
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: lot of electronic assembling in other areas to fabricate something.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: So the notion that they don't produce something of value
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: is wrong. You ask something really important. Do they have
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: the money to do this? Well, we know they do.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Because some of the wealthiest companies on the planet are
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the companies that are building data centers. So the data
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: center itself, the building, can be operated in sort of
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: one of three ways. It can be owned and built by, say, Meta, Google, Amazon, right,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: the big hyperscalers. You know, Amazon has its own massive
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: network of data centers that do initially shopping and now
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: everything else, you know, Prime Movies. Then you also have
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: a merchant, just like in any real estate business. You
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: have real estate investment trusts that build data centers and
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: they rent out the space just like a shopping mall.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: The cages are called because they're just bays inside. It'd
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: be just like a shopping mall. There's Nordstrom's here and
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Chipotle there. You do the exact same thing. In fact,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: for Nordstrom, Nordstrom's online shopping lives in a cage in
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: a data center somewhere. So does Chipotle's back office finance operations.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: They live in a data center somewhere. So those kinds
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: of businesses rent out the space and they typically pre-lease
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: the space before they build the data center. So they're
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: not taking a gamble. And then there's the third kind,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: we'll call them the speculators. And this is true in
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: any kind of real estate. They build the site on spec, right?
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: But they typically wouldn't build a data center. It's guts
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: on spec to be like, again, a shopping mall. Let's
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: say you're a developer and you've got some investors and
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: you acquire the land, you get all your permits and
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you'll develop the land, bring water in and power and
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: lights and start building the foundation. And then you, quote,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: flip it to somebody else who wants to run a
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: shopping mall. So the data center world in real estate
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: terms look just like every other real estate world. The
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: biggest difference between the data center world and other real
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: estate is it's new and it's growing fast. And It
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: has all the characteristics of misinformation that airports had when
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: we started them. Airports are very annoying and noisy. They
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: had to deal with all of that when airports began.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Highways themselves, if you read your history, ask Gemini on
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: the Google thing, did people oppose roads and highways when
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: the dawn of the age of the automobile? You betcha.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Including today, right? We have a lot of debates about
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: where a road should go if you have to build
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: a new road because it has a negative impact on
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: communities and citizens.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've worked at a steel foundry. I've worked
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: at a steel mill. And the steel mill is a
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: mill and a forge shop. I mean, those places are loud.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: And there is always fear when there's something new coming.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: But this, I don't know if it's social media. I
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: don't know what it is. It seems like there's such
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: a rapid... explosion of fear. And there has been rumor
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: that the Chinese are placing propaganda in the United States
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: to stop us from forward moving progress, which to me,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like it's a possibility. They certainly
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: wouldn't want us to get ahead of them in the
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: AI race. And that does scare me. Do you think
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that could be true?
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Well, sure, it could be true. And I think it
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: is true. But that doesn't imply that that people who
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: don't like data centers are Chinese dupes, right? I mean,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: that doesn't imply that, obviously, because you might hold an
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: opinion and you don't like it for all kinds of reasons.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: And some of the reasons for the opposition to data centers,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: as you know, is that people are unhappy about, say,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: social media, or they just dislike, to use Senator Sanders' words,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: the tech oligarchs. They just dislike them. Or they're afraid
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: of AI taking their jobs, and the data center sort
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: of epitomizes the target. Because, I mean, how do you oppose...
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: AI taking your job, well, you could oppose a data center.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: You know, you might guess I'm in the camp that
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: says AI creates jobs, but it also takes jobs. It
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: is disruptive. It's not nothing to disrupt the workforce and
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: the marketplace. But I think your question about our geopolitical
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: enemies is well-placed and exposes something that people would be
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: profoundly naive not to believe. Russian adversaries, Iranian adversaries, North Koreans,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Chinese have always meddled in our politics. We have plenty
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: of evidence of that. They've always meddled, especially in the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: last two decades, in social media to excite people. We
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: have hard data. Congress has done investigations like this before.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: We have hard data, not just of them hacking our
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: institutions to cause damage, but also to promote dissension in
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: political campaigns. It would be obviously in their interest to
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: slow us down in the data center world. But that, again,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: and while it would accelerate, it's like throwing gasoline on
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: the fire. I don't know the answer to sort of
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: who lit the match and to get everybody wound up
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: about data centers because it's happened so fast. Color me
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: cynical that it's pure grassroots, and this is what they
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: call in politics, astroturfing. And then it's become hugely political.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And every Republican to run away from this being an
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: issue that they're fighting to get reelected on in the
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: midterms is a genuflecting to the same anti-data center moratorium
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: mentality that all the Democrats are doing. Because they essentially
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: want to take it off the table as a debate.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Because no one, I think, in effect, doesn't want to defend,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: let's say, meta and social media. Or they don't want
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: to defend job losses from AI. So you take it
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: off the table by saying, oh, we should be careful too.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: We'll go slow to be safe. It's kind of a
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: coward's way out. I mean, I recognize politics is not
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: always full of people that are brave.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: There's always the, if you're explaining, you're losing. And because
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: people don't understand data centers, there's that feeling that you
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: have to explain them. I think you brought up a
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: great point of 200 high paying jobs in a community
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: like mine would be incredibly significant. And I say that
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: because that changes grocery stores, that changes restaurants, that changes
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: so much of the the dynamic of what the town
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: is like. And I will tell you, my own experience
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: is that our factory was really driven off the lakeshore
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: and put out of business. But it was at the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: same time as there are probably at the same time,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: five factories around the lake here in Mitel. The county
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: just drove them out. I mean, they just closed one
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: after another, one after another, after another. And they had
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: this whole like watch our town go theme. And they
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: were going to make this town into a tourist attraction.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: And what they have found out is that when you
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: don't have wealth in a town, nobody wants to come visit.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: You can't even get a chain restaurant to come because
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: they're like, the median income here is not high enough
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: for us to bring our chain restaurant here.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: So the roads are suffering. The community is suffering. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: that's my point when I've seen it firsthand. And I
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: think this is the hard thing to explain on the
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: campaign trail. But when you go from community to community
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: and you go into a place where they've got potholes
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: that you could actually build a home inside of and
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: you say this could change. This could change. This old
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: factory here that is sitting empty and has been for
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: 10 years could be buzzing with activity that would end
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: up giving your kids an after-school program, giving your kids
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: a tech school. It's a discussion that has to be had,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: but I think people are afraid or they don't understand
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: enough about how to explain it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: So Anthropic and OpenAI should be hiring you. No, you're
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: exactly right. And not to trivialize it, I think what
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: will happen and is already happening is what are called
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: brownfield industrial sites that had industrial facilities before. That's what
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: happened in Georgia. It's happening around the country. In some cases,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: you have to build in a greenfield site for practical reasons,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: either velocity or permits or where the fiber is and power,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: all kinds of issues. But where you are in particular,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: and the so-called odiously named Rust Belt, but the former
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: industrial heart of the country, it's still significant industrial activity,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: as you know, particularly in Ohio and Pennsylvania, because of
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: their good fortune of being on top of the big
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: shale fields. But that's spilled over into overall broad economic
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: growth because the number of people actually work in the
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: oil and gas industry is small compared to the number
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: of jobs that are created by their wealth. So you
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: take old industrial sites, which already have power lines to them,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: steel mills to your point, Use a lot of power.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: So you already have infrastructure. They take water and they
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: take roads and they take all the kinds of things
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: that data centers need. I think what probably will happen,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: and this is what should happen, the data center businesses
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: that are facing all this unhappiness are learning quickly that
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: what they have to do is be better explainers and
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: better citizens rather than just coming in and plowing and
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: doing things under secret agreements. And remember, a lot of
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: the secret agreements are not because they're hiding anything. It's
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: because they are from you or the citizens are hiding
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: it from their competitors who they don't want to know
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: how fast they're doing or what they're doing and where.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: That's part of it. But they'll have to be more open.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: And they're starting. And the other thing you could do
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: is to essentially run auctions. I mean, if you want
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to say to six communities and you could identify where
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: you'd want to build a data center that will generate
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars of free money for the
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: local county and jobs, say, well, we want to go any,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: if I'm the company, I want to go any one
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: of these five or six places. And you all let
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: me know if you want me to come there. And
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: if you can help me get my permits and, you know,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: we'll be transparent and open, you know, run an auction.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: That's starting to happen. You know, versions of that are
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: starting to happen. But mostly it's very old fashioned. It's
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: a very new technology with an old fashioned problem. It's big,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: it's new, it's disruptive in the way all big industries are.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: And the industries that are doing it In this case,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: we're naive, I think, about public reaction. And of course,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: our enemies, both political and foreign, take advantage of naivete
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: every time it happens.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've watched this from the outside and I've just
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: thought so many times, there is such an opportunity to
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: flip this narrative and explain that for all of the
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: politicians out there that are saying, we're going to find
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: ways to increase revenue. And we know what that means.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: This is actually a way to increase revenue without taking
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: it from the people. You know, there is there are
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: ways to increase revenue when you are not affecting you're
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: actually benefiting the people of the community. But it's hard
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to get that across. I do think we need to
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: have more people out explaining it. So I appreciate what
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: you've been able to do today.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on, and good luck getting a
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: data center in your backyard. I hope that happens. Yeah.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's going to happen under either
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: administration that could come into Michigan, but I do think
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: that there's definitely the room for that conversation. I think
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: there are great, great places in Michigan that could benefit
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: immensely from something like this, and it's a hard discussion
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: to have, but I think the discussion needs to be had. So,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Mark Mills, I appreciate you having the discussion with me
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: today on the podcast. Please stay tuned. We'll be right
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: back after this. Thank you for tuning in today. Make
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: sure you come back on Wednesday to learn about Stand
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Up Sunday. I think we all feel beaten down by
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: division and the division of this election season. But we're
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: going to talk with Karen Schreier Dressback. She is with
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the Appeal of Conscience Foundation. So on Wednesday, we're going
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: to have her here and we're going to find out
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: what they're doing to protect people of faith, to protect faith,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: but also unite people of faith. And it's interesting because
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: regardless of their faith, they're standing together to defend our rights.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, she is a truly inspirational person. So
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I will see you back here on Wednesday to lift
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: your spirits. I'm so grateful for you for your tuning
• 35:29
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  Speaker 1: more people, we can bring you more cool stuff. So
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  Speaker 1: please share the podcast. You can find it at TudorDixonPodcast.com.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: You can watch the video on Rumble or YouTube. Just
• 35:49
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• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Tudor Dixon podcast and have a blessed day. Thank you.