Latest / The Curve / RTC113: Losing everything to a professional con artist and coming out on top.

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RTC113: Losing everything to a professional con artist and coming out on top. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curth, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Shurma were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
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I don't really get the saying.
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It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
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You know, I'm like, I'm still not with you.
0:19
Are you on the script?
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It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring, but it totally doesn't
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need to be.
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OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
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OK, the vegetables are good for you.
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It's the brownie recipe.
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OK, we got there, we got there.
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OK, OK, well, you've really got a finance brain.
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Yeah, one of us has to.
0:40
This is a joke.
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OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager,
0:45
where I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
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And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:50
No, that's so not the joke, Vick.
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Oh, OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
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Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:02
I just don't even know where to start with the introduction to this conversation.
1:05
Oh, neither.
1:06
This was one of the heaviest, most shocking, honestly.
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I hate the word triggering because it's so overused,
1:13
but incredibly triggering conversations that we've ever had.
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I cried, I got all Terry.
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It was like, when you're speechless because you're in awe of someone,
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that wasn't this.
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You're speechless in because of the story.
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And because of the, I guess, what Tracy went through and summer,
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it's just crazy.
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This is all about financial fraud, essentially.
1:36
This conversation, financial fraud.
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It's the sort of thing you see movies on or documentaries on.
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And you're like, there's no way that happened.
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You think it's never going to happen to me.
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And that's exactly what Tracy thought.
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And then it did happen to her.
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And so it's just incredible how she's come through this as well.
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And how her thinking and her confidence now
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and her relationship with money and her relationship with her partner,
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her new partner, like just all of that now, what she's learned from
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and how she puts people around her that have supported her
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through this and everything is pretty incredible.
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It's absolutely mind-blowing.
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And without giving too much away, we'll get into the check
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because it actually was quite a long one.
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But these two women, so we spoke to Tracy
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and also Summer who's been helping write the book
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called The Last Victim.
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So it's by Tracy Hall and with Summerland.
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And it's available from the first of May
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and it's all about the story and what you're about to hear.
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So if you listen to this and you think, oh my god,
2:34
I need to read more.
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It's called The Last Victim.
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And we'll put a link in the show notes
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this podcast in case you want to purchase it.
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So soft.
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Oh, yes.
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Who the hell is Hamish?
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It was probably one of the first
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and probably one of the only podcasts I've ever listened to.
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Really?
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You know what we're about to start our podcast
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and I said to you, but who listens to podcasts?
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I literally had listened to
2:59
Eric and it was like teacher's pet was one of them
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and then who the hell is Hamish was the other one.
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And I was so addicted and it was so.
3:09
Okay, so I've actually not listened to this podcast.
3:12
Yeah.
3:12
And I don't know how I haven't,
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I actually hadn't heard of it until we came across
3:16
who we were about to introduce you on the podcast.
3:19
Okay, firstly, Summer and Tracy,
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we're really excited to have you on the podcast.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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Welcome.
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Thank you for having us.
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Secondly, I don't know why I feel really nervous
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about this interview.
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I feel like we should be like,
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my sprang.
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Yeah, it feels naughty.
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Like someone's like, oh gosh.
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So we're about to open a real
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can of worms.
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Wow.
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It's like it's a already podcast series.
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Like it's definitely in public domain,
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but for some reason it feels
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yeah, like haunting or something.
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So I don't even honestly know where to start.
3:53
Maybe we will start with you, Tracy.
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I think when we were researching for this interview
3:59
and figuring out how we could tell the story
4:01
and ask you questions and make sure
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that our audience is learning from the situations
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that both of you have been in,
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I think could we maybe start by painting
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the picture of what your relationship was like
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with Max Tabita?
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Like you were together, I think, for 16 months
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before it all sort of turned to custard,
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but we'd love to kind of get a bit of a picture
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as to what the relationship was like,
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what he was like to be with.
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Can you kind of give us a bit of a picture
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as to who he was as a person?
4:31
Yeah, of course.
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Well, we met on a dating app in early 2016
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and I'd been separated from my husband for about a year,
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a little over a year actually.
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And I was kind of at that point
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where I was ready to meet someone else.
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I didn't want to find another husband.
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You know, I wasn't looking for that.
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I was just looking for someone who I could spend some time with,
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someone who had similar values to me,
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someone who liked doing the things that I liked.
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I was just ready for that type of company in my life again.
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And we connected on the dating app and,
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you know, just texting and then we moved to conversations
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and then we ended up meeting.
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He lived in the eastern suburbs of Sydney
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so in Bondi, I lived on the northern beaches
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which, you know, on a good day
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is probably about a 40 to 45 minute drive
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on a bad day a lot longer.
5:21
I was a single mum.
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I was, you know, almost full-time parenting,
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working full-time.
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I had a huge job at eBay at the time.
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So I didn't have a lot of time to, you know,
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it wasn't like we were seeing each other every night
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and spending all weekend together.
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It was a fairly, a slow and distant relationship to start with.
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And I think over time we just really got to know each other.
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We spent our time doing really simple things
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like, you know, going for long walks.
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We'd go running.
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He was really into running.
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I love running.
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We both loved the ocean.
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He was a mad surfer.
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So we would go surfing, paddle boarding.
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We would sit down by the beach
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and have, like, really simple picnics.
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We'd go out for meals.
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I guess we just enjoyed doing the simple things.
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He was very invested in his work.
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He presented himself as the Chief Investment Officer
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for a family office.
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Which I kind of sort of knew what it was.
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I'd worked in finance in my career.
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And I sort of knew things that he was talking about.
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But he certainly presented himself as a really high level
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Chief Investment Officer Financial Executive.
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And yeah.
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So our relationship was, it was fairly simple, I would say,
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built on, you know, shared values, shared interests.
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He found out pretty, you know, pretty quickly what I wanted
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in my life.
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We seemingly wanted the same things.
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So I, you know, from from where I was sitting,
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we had a very intimate and deep, you know,
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and serious relationship.
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We were talking about our future towards the end,
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buying a house in Byron, you know,
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thinking about what the next few years
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of our lives look like together.
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Okay.
7:00
And it's interesting because we're watching you talk.
7:05
It's like you're saying all these like amazing things.
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It's what you would want really in any way.
7:10
Yeah. Yeah.
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If you didn't know the full story, you'd be like,
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oh, wow, what's that?
7:13
It's a positive vibe.
7:14
So yeah, he was great.
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He was a great guy.
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And so it turns us like,
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Max was a great guy.
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Max doesn't exist.
7:24
Max was a fictional character, unfortunately.
7:27
So can you just explain for those who haven't listened to the podcast,
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might not know too much about your background and what actually unraveled.
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So things were fine and good and seemingly easy, comfortable, lovely.
7:40
Yeah.
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At what point did things start to fall apart and seem off
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and what kind of ended up unraveling?
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Things fell apart when I was sent a link to a news article one morning
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after we'd returned home from a trip to Byron Bay.
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And it was a police footage of Max being arrested.
8:02
Outside his Bondi apartment.
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And you had no idea what?
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I had no idea.
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I looked at this.
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I remember looking at it going, you know,
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what's he says?
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It's like talking about some 47-year-old,
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unidentified man that has stolen money from people
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and he's been arrested and taken away to the police station.
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And I thought, there's got to be a mistake.
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You know, Max is 42.
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He told me he was 42.
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And you know that this whole unraveling happened.
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And I basically had to pick apart the pieces
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and I finally got in touch with his brother-in-law who I had met.
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And I was trying to find out what had happened,
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where he'd gone, you know, what the situation was.
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And I couldn't get in touch with him.
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And anyway, he ended up texting me when I was down in a car park
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and I arrived up from the car park.
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And at dinged and it said,
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Tracy, please call me urgently on this number.
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Chris.
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And in brackets, he'd written,
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hey, Mrs. Brother-in-law.
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And that's when I found out he's real name.
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And I was like, who is hate?
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Like who the fuck is hate?
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Who is Max DeVita?
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Who is hate?
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And my whole world just spun because I was like,
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oh my god, I don't know what I'm dealing with here.
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I want to chime in, Tracy,
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because you didn't say that in the 24 hours leading up to that link,
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you couldn't get a hold of him and that was so unusual.
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And you were actually just really concerned
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for his safety and wellbeing.
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Like you thought he was dead.
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I thought he died.
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I called Bondi police and asked him to do a wellness check on him
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because I hadn't heard from him in 24 hours
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after I'd returned home from, from Byron.
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We didn't travel together.
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He never traveled with me.
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He always drove and I always flew.
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What was it?
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The past.
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Well, because he's, the name on his ticket
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would have been Hamish McLaren.
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Oh my god, everything must start making sense now.
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Like you would have been like,
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no wonder he didn't even fly with me.
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Like, there was always an excuse,
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always a reason he wanted to stay up surfing for a few extra days.
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He preferred to take his time.
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He had a client to go and see up there.
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You know, there was always some, you know,
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really off the quick off the mark comment about why
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if it was ever questioned.
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So I never really thought about it to be honest.
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I had to get back to get to my daughter to get back to work
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and he had a little bit more flexibility.
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So yeah, everything, everything kind of unraveled
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in that moment.
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I had to get in touch with,
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well, I had to call Bondi Police back and say he's not dead.
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He's been arrested.
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And then I got in touch with the investigators
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that had arrested him.
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And then I spent the next three weeks of my life
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on picking the previous 18 months of my life.
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And I had to give statement after statement,
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detail after detail.
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I had a non-compliant superannuation fun.
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I could have been done for tax fraud
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because he'd done a tax return for me.
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And then during that period of time,
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I'd worked out that I had lost $317,000.
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Wow, to him.
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Well, I wasn't sure that, to be honest,
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I wasn't sure that I'd lost it at that point.
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I knew that he had it.
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And it wasn't until, you know,
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the full investigation happened, the court case.
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And of course, the podcast to the hell is Hamish,
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really uncovered who he really was.
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And I realized very quickly
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that I was never going to see that money again.
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That's $317,000.
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What was that made up of?
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It was a combination of things.
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So the majority of the money,
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so over time and listening to the conversations
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around investments and the price of this
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and investment strategies
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and what he was doing for his family office clients.
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And it started to turn over a period of time
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into, you know, who's your superannuation worth?
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And do you know what you're paying in fees?
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And, you know, those guys, they're thieves.
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They're thieves.
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They just take all the money in fees
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and you could be earning a lot more money.
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And, you know, he's quite balshy in some of those ways,
12:00
but he seemed like he was a very, very astute investment officer.
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So, you know, kind of believed him.
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So the bulk of the money,
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he convinced me to set up a self-managed superfund,
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which I did in my name.
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And the superannuation that I'd basically, you know,
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earned over my 20, whatever year career, 24-year career,
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I took that out and put it into a Bell Potter trading account.
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So there was a Bell Potter trading account in my name,
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or I thought there was.
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I'd filled out the forms.
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I'd gone and done all of the ID checks.
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I'd had it signed by JP.
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The check that I made out was made out to Bell Potter.
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So he never got that money.
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But what actually happened was that account with Bell Potter
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was never actually opened in my name.
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So there was never a Tracy Hall investment's account at Bell Potter.
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It was deposited at Bell Potter
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and then went into one of probably his washing accounts, I would say.
13:02
And he washed the money that way.
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But I don't understand how that even gets through
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and there's so much legalities with, I know.
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But there's like the forms, the forms you fill out.
13:10
Yeah.
13:10
And then you transfer the money into the account.
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This is like transfer wise.
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But like I've done a new transfer from the bank.
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They match up the funds.
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Whereas the check was just made out to Bell Potter,
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which was he'd have other accounts at Bell Potter,
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which is just like a broker.
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It's like Goldman Sachs or one of those UBS, one of those banks.
13:30
So that would have gone into his account.
13:32
But Tracy thought that they would make sure I put it into my account.
13:36
Yeah.
13:37
So it seems like it was an account in my name.
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Of course, I'd never been through this process before
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and he was guiding slash grooming me through it.
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And, you know, so I know that now, of course,
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I will do not ever do that.
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But that was the majority of the money.
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And then there was some other investments
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where I would transfer money that was purportedly going
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into my investment account that he was managing on my behalf.
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But it was actually going into company accounts that
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he was actually a bankrupt person.
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So he couldn't actually open a company after that date.
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So there were companies and company accounts
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in the name of other people
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that he was running and operating that I transferred money into.
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And it was all under sort of different name,
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like Oceana Financial Market, for example.
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And that's the bit that I find really hard
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to get my head around is how he was able to open and operate and manage
14:35
a company bank account
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when it wasn't even in his name.
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Because he actually wasn't even able to do that.
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So Tracy, were you ever interested in checking
14:45
your super or your investment?
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And if you were, what did you look at?
14:50
Well, what did he show you?
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Yeah, so I asked him for reports and logins.
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He showed me a report one time.
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It's probably about six or eight pages.
15:00
It was on Bell Potter letterhead.
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And it was just trade after trade after trade.
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I'm going to say hundreds of trades on these six pages
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with amounts and the starting amount was the money that I had put in.
15:12
And then the trade and the ups and downs.
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And I didn't obviously understand all of the trades
15:18
because they were whatever funds they were
15:20
that he was trading in.
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And I was looking at, I said,
15:23
can you explain this to me?
15:24
And he said, look, these are all the trades.
15:26
These are the ends.
15:27
These are the outs.
15:28
This is the profit.
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This is the loss.
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And he said, but the bit you need to take notice,
15:32
obviously, this number at the end.
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And he flipped through six pages of line after line of trades.
15:40
And it was obviously significant more than
15:43
what I had put in.
15:44
And he said, look, in the last three months or whatever it was,
15:48
you've made this much return.
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And this is the money we're working with now.
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So we can invest more.
15:52
We can do this.
15:54
So and this was on official Bell Potter letterhead.
15:57
Basically, he just forged the whole thing.
16:00
It's crazy because we always go on about, you know,
16:02
make sure you check your investments and all of that and understand
16:05
what you're looking at.
16:06
But when you've got someone that is genuinely trying to confuse you,
16:13
I mean, hats off to you for even asking and wanting to check.
16:17
And you thought you were.
16:18
And it's just, I don't know, it's so, yeah, frustrating.
16:22
I actually feel kind of sick.
16:23
I'm like, I am so sorry that you went through such a traumatic experience.
16:29
And I honestly can't even begin to imagine
16:32
how you've even built trust back up with friends, family,
16:37
relationships like it.
16:38
It's, yeah.
16:39
So in the book, you write a lot about the different read flags and things
16:43
that now you look back on that seem obvious.
16:45
I mean, I'm sure like now, think about the idea of a six page document.
16:49
It's like, can you just log me in?
16:50
I want to see it digitally.
16:51
So it's like that.
16:52
Are there any other kind of obvious read flags?
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I know that's such a lame way to put it when you're like, he's a professional
17:00
but like, if you were to look back at it now and I'm asking the question,
17:03
not to make you feel silly because he is a professional, but more to like,
17:08
for anyone who's listening who might be feeling a little bit fishy or funny about a situation,
17:14
what are the kinds of things that you picked up on and hindsight you wish someone had said
17:19
on the podcast you were listening to?
17:21
Yeah, 100% and there are a lot in retrospect.
17:25
At the time, I was blissfully happy and I trusted him.
17:29
I trusted him with everything I had and I think, yes, absolutely like ask the hard questions
17:36
because it feels a bit awkward and when you love someone or you're in a relationship to
17:40
kind of say, hey, I really need, you know, really pushing for it.
17:44
Really ask the questions.
17:47
Another tip that I would give, so if you do people is talk about as hard as it is,
17:54
talk about what you're doing with friends, people that have known you for years.
17:58
I need to tell anyone that I was investing with Hamish, the only person I told at the time
18:03
was my friend Kath, who was the one that had the spotty senses and went, you know,
18:08
and investigated him on her own.
18:10
Oh, really?
18:11
I didn't, okay, so I didn't realise that it happened.
18:13
Yeah, so Kath is one of my best friends.
18:16
She asked a lot of questions all the time.
18:18
I was saying to her, you know, I'm going to put my superannuation through Hamish and her spotty
18:23
senses just went crazy and she was really worried and was crying at breakfast one day and she's
18:31
not a cry, she's very stoic and she was like, I'm really worried and I was like, Kath,
18:37
but you just, you don't know him, you don't know our relationship, you've never met him.
18:41
You know, he has my best interests at heart, he wants me to be financially independent,
18:46
he wants the best for me because obviously this is the story he had been feeding me for the last
18:51
year and I kind of put it down to Kath, just been a little bit, she just didn't know him and
18:59
how do I've had that same conversation with five, six, ten of my friends?
19:04
I reckon a bunch of them would have come back and went, oh, are you sure?
19:08
I was like, oh, who, like where?
19:10
Or one of them would have had an investment with Bell Potter and like, okay,
19:14
well, make sure it's in your name, make sure that the log-ins is set up in your name
19:18
and then you can transfer the money. So I feel like because these conversations are so tricky
19:25
and one of the reasons I'm so passionate about telling this story is that money is still really,
19:30
really hard to talk about, you know, we can sort of, it's getting better, I would say, but,
19:36
you know, no one tells each other how much they owe and no one tells each other how much they're
19:39
investing, no one certainly talks about money that they've lost and I feel like had I've had more
19:46
of those conversations with the people who have known and loved me for the longest,
19:51
there would have been some more warning bells and had I've had three or four people come to Mengo,
19:56
I just need you to check this, it would have started to sink in. So that's another tip, it's hard
20:03
because people don't want to talk about it. It's so interesting because we've, this is the
20:07
whole reason we have our podcasters to encourage people, particularly women to talk about money
20:12
for a whole reason, a whole lot of different reasons and whether it's to increase your salary,
20:18
your value, what you're worth, you know, all of those, but I had never ever thought of that reason
20:25
is that because you could be being taken advantage of and you could be, you know, a victim of
20:32
financial betrayal. Your parents don't talk about where they're investing their money,
20:36
that's often quite a taboo thing as well, but your parents, you know, our rating populations,
20:41
are some of the most vulnerable when it comes to financial matters and, you know, your parent
20:48
and technologically, they're not as savvy, they've also got the most money. So, you know,
20:54
we should be having these conversations with our parents, too. Do you need any help? Is there
20:58
any way I can help you? Do you want to bounce anything off me? Are you feeling comfortable? Do
21:02
you have all your logins? When do you get your report? How comfortable, like there's a range of
21:08
different questions you can ask and they're not the easiest questions and especially our parents
21:13
generations. Certainly, you know, there was no money talk over the dinner table when I was growing up
21:18
and, you know, I really want people to think about that really hard. There's also, I guess, it's like
21:28
when you date a guy that's a bit of a dick here and you've got, you know, you've got a few friends
21:32
we've all been there. Yeah, I was like, do not date him, do not date him, but, you know, one or two
21:39
taking her experience and they're like, do not date him, do not date him. You're like, but he's
21:43
lovely. You don't know him like I do and it's I totally hear you like not saying that, I gosh,
21:49
what I went through is nothing compared to what you did, but and yeah, and then it's fine. There's
21:53
a reason people talk about that totally, you know, your friends have nothing to gain from that,
21:58
you know, they've got your best interest at heart, they only want what's best for you. And so,
22:02
if like you said, yeah, if you had had five cats telling you, hold up something, something's fishy
22:09
here, yeah, then you would have probably listened, but I mean, you got hindsight's great, but
22:15
and I think you, you know, as humans, we want to see the best in people and some of
22:20
and I've been doing a lot of thinking around cognitive bias. And there's a lot of brain glitches
22:26
that we all have, especially when you're falling in love. And, you know, there's, there's an
22:32
optimism bias, you know, I have a huge opportunity, I think the world's a bloody amazing place.
22:37
And full of people who only have our best interests at heart. And, you know, so there's that,
22:42
there's cognitive bias, which, you know, there's confirmation bias, which all the things that
22:48
Amy should said to me, it was like death by a thousand cuts. You know, I, I can't tell you how
22:52
many conversations I listened to about his investment traits at work. I heard people on the other
22:57
end of the phone, he had people working with him to create this whole movie, you know, like they were,
23:04
he would call this woman called Claudia, probably five or six times a day. Clothes was the,
23:10
what's the price of gold and where did we trade it at yesterday? Where's it going to trade in
23:14
another two hours? When you come back to me in an hour and a half, it honestly,
23:18
who the fuck is Claudia? Yeah, we're with Claudia on the show. I know where Claudia is. Honestly,
23:23
I don't, I don't know, but you know, when you can hear someone on the other end of the phone,
23:27
it wasn't like he was pretending down this conversation with someone in a back office somewhere.
23:30
I don't know. And so everything he presented, when we finally got to talk about my money and what
23:37
I was going to do there, all my confirmation biases were ticked. Oh, yes, he's an investment
23:43
professional. Yes, he knows what he's talking about. Yes, he's made money for the richest people
23:47
in Australia. Oh, yes, I understand what he's talking. Yes, he sent me an email every week of his
23:52
investment strategies for his private clients. Yes, he holds me text messages at one 30 in the
23:58
morning when the US stock market opens telling me the impact of Trump's antics overnight on the economy.
24:04
Like, do you think he and she thinks he's an investment banker? Like, is he, because if you like that
24:09
deep into a liar, is there an element of you believe what you're talking about?
24:13
Well, he used to have a financial services license and he did use to trade.
24:19
But he, he was banned. Wait, like, I found this. Of course, I found this out all
24:23
afterwards when I actually knew his real name. He knew the loan goal and things like that,
24:26
because he didn't know. And he actually didn't have a job. He would drop me off in the city. Okay,
24:32
so he's another story that will blow your mind. We'd get up in the morning if I've had a
24:37
slope over at his place. I would get in my work here, have to go into Ebay office in the city.
24:43
He would put on his Tom Ford suit, put on his, you know, expensive watch, go downstairs,
24:49
we'd hop in the range over one of the five cars he had, which was, I don't even know whose cars
24:54
these were, but anyway, hop in one of the cars. We'd drive into the city, we'd pull into his street,
24:59
which was in the financial district of Sydney. I used to work there. And he said, oh, tea, tea,
25:06
tea, just, you get out here because you can just walk straight down that street to Ebay. I've
25:11
got to park down, you know, four floors under and, you know, I'll see you at the end of the day,
25:16
I'll talk to you later or whatever. Nice to get out of the car. See you later. Great night,
25:19
thanks. And he would drive back to Bondi and put his board shorts back on and figure out ways to
25:25
steal more money from people like the extent that this man went to to create this appearance of who
25:34
he was for me. And then I would say, so he probably, you know, read blogs and did his own research
25:42
and got up on the lingo and, you know, in some ways, he was incredibly smart. But, you know, he used
25:48
his, his powers for evil and not for good, unfortunately. How have you got to a place where you've
25:54
got your finances more in a, I don't know, an independent and control space because they know
26:01
he's been a long time rebuilding, not just from a healing perspective, but also financially.
26:07
So I guess a two-part question firstly, how did you get your finances back on track and what did
26:12
you sort of do after you saw he's gone to jail and you've learned all the stuff and then secondly,
26:16
how have you managed to yourself to a place of, okay, I'm kind of open to being in this world
26:22
again because I honestly, yeah, I don't even know how you would have done that.
26:27
Yeah, I think to be honest, the second part of the question was what I had to get my head around.
26:32
In my head, I went, well, Max is dead. But then I was telling myself, well, he never existed in
26:37
the first place. You know, it was like, it was like having your lover, your partner, your life
26:43
partner, whatever just die because we went from talking 15 times the day and him being a very,
26:48
very big part of my life and my conversation and my, my thinking to, oh my god, like he is literally
26:55
just being wiped from my life. And then on top of that, I had to get my head around the fact that
27:00
that man actually never existed. He just fabricated a character that he knew I'd fall in love with,
27:06
which I did. And it was, it was all just a complete chance. So then I was like, well,
27:11
then my life has been a complete chance the last year and a half. So that whole thing was just like,
27:18
I was in a parallel universe for quite a long time. I became depressed. I was very anxious.
27:24
On top of that, during that time, he was calling me from jail and he was sending me letters.
27:32
So there was kind of this, there was still this contact that in some way I was desperate for,
27:39
because I was so desperate for answers. And the police wouldn't talk to me. They'll probably
27:43
wouldn't talk to me. His family wouldn't talk to me. His friends wouldn't talk to me. No
27:47
body would talk to me. Everyone was so tight lipped. And I'm trying to put these dicks or puzzle
27:51
back together. And that's when the Pog, you know, that a year later, I went in with the, with the
27:58
investigator from the Australian Greg Barop, the journalist. And that's when it started to become
28:04
clear. But I think during that period, emotionally, I mean, yes, Hamish, you can completely
28:12
portray it like he had flattened me emotionally. But the hardest thing for me was that I didn't trust
28:19
myself anymore. You know, like yeah, you can trust other people or you can, you know, you've had
28:25
people in your life for many years. You know, they've got your best interests. You have a tight
28:28
family, whatever those things are. They are manageable. But I just didn't think it would ever
28:35
be me. And I thought I was smarter than that. I thought I'd traveled the world. I had a strong
28:42
intuition. I had great friends at excellent education. I had a huge career. And suddenly, I was like,
28:49
how, how could I have let this happen? I didn't trust my own judgment. So every decision I made
28:54
was just so painful because I wasn't sure I was actually going to be making the right decision,
29:00
because I just didn't trust myself. And that was the bit that was the hardest to rebuild if I'm
29:04
really honest. But you know, seven years down the track, I can say that I'm probably stronger than
29:09
I've ever been. I'm more aware. And, you know, and here we are having the conversation about it.
29:15
So that's the emotional piece. And then to the other part of your question around the financial
29:21
rebuilding, I think I probably want to say that it's not lost on me that I had a really good job
29:27
at the time. I had a very supportive employer. And I had lost everything. So I had no savings.
29:35
I had nothing apart from my monthly salary, but I had a good job. And even though I was dying
29:41
inside every day, I had to turn up to work because I couldn't lose my income. And so that spurred
29:47
me on. And then, of course, I had a daughter. I had to get off to school and I then had to get
29:54
really smart really quickly because I had nothing. I had nothing. But if some emergency happened,
30:00
I didn't have an emergency fund. I didn't have any backup. I had nothing. And I went found a
30:06
financial advisor. And I interviewed three, I interviewed three recommendations. I researched
30:12
them. I stalked them. I deep stalked them on the internet. I made sure they had their financial
30:18
services license. I looked for recommendations. I asked them for referrals of clients they've
30:24
got so I could ring them and ask them for feedback. It was like a need to be processed. But I,
30:29
I was so scared with my money to trust. But I knew I had to get a professional to help me because I
30:35
wasn't in a place to make these decisions in that traumatized state. And I think after any big
30:40
event in life, whether it's divorce, death, illness, something like this, you know, for that period
30:46
of time after where you're really grieving or you're in that traumatic state, making big decisions
30:51
it's not the time to make big decisions. So I needed some help. And I found this
30:55
incredible woman who is still my financial advisor today. And we sat in a room and I had to
31:02
recount the story, which was so painful and so embarrassing. And I was just so ashamed.
31:07
And she said, it's okay. She said, you're going to be okay. You have an incredible career
31:12
and you're determined. And she said, I want you to think about what your life looks like in one
31:17
year, in two years, in five years, and ten years time, we're going to map it out. And she got
31:22
the whiteboard and we're mapping out what I wanted to do and what my career would look like and
31:26
how much money I would have saved and how it's going to rebuild my superannuation. What that
31:30
would look like from a modeling perspective, ten years down the line, where I wanted my daughter
31:34
to go to school, where, you know, all the things. So it was almost like we visioned up my life for
31:38
the next ten years. And she said, okay, you can do this. And we put a plan together. We got my
31:47
wills in order. We got my power of attorney in order. We got a plan to siphon off money from my
31:54
salary that we're going to portfolio because I, even now, I won't have enough money to retire on
31:59
because I've lost so much in superannuation. So to start that again, it's sort of 43, 44. I'm
32:05
even if I work until I'm 65, 68, 70, I'm not going to have enough. So I had to come up with another
32:11
strategy and she helped me do that. You know, so we went through the whole kit and caboodle
32:17
and not only did that give me confidence that I was going to be okay, it actually,
32:22
it put a plan in place, it gave me something to aim for. And I also think it's really important,
32:26
something you touched on before is like when you're going through that traumatic experience,
32:30
I mean, you thought you were financially independent and had that financial security.
32:37
And so I think, yeah, we've always talked about how important it is that you have that visibility
32:44
in your finances. And I know that you definitely tried and thought you had, but it's because when
32:51
events like that happen that are traumatic, you want to take the time to heal and deal with
32:56
whether it's divorce or loss. You don't then want to be focusing on, oh gosh, okay, what's my
33:01
financial situation? So the fact that you had to do both at the same time would have been,
33:07
yeah, completely, completely overwhelming, I can't even imagine.
33:12
Yeah. And I think your brain in those circumstances, and I know this through, you know,
33:17
grieving the loss of my father in my 20s, is that a grieving brain or a traumatized brain does
33:23
not operate in the way that a normal brain does. So your rational and logical thinking
33:30
is so taken up by trying to essentially get your brain to understand that this is your new
33:35
reality. It's your new reality without your parent or it's your new reality without the love of
33:40
your life is just taking your life savings. So so much of your brain power is taken up just trying
33:46
to get your head around your new reality that, you know, I was making, I was a really crap
33:51
employee during that time. I was probably not a great parent. I was probably not a great friend
33:56
because there was like I was making mistakes, you know, my rational brain, which is why when I got
34:02
the financial advisor and the professionals to help me, they helped take away some of that burden
34:09
of making those the correct decisions. And they guided me through that. And what I would say is that,
34:17
you know, having having the structure and the regulation of an advisor or, you know,
34:24
a lawyer or whatever the professional service is that you that you take on board,
34:28
it protects you in a way. And, you know, another tip and trick is someone's if offering to
34:33
invest your money and they're kind of doing it in a way that's outside the regulations that exist
34:39
in our societies for our protection. Then it's, I would be like, oh, Fred Flag, you know, there's
34:47
there's no shortcuts when it comes to building wealth. I don't think there are some people that
34:54
do it, but it's probably borderline gambling in my opinion, like I don't, I don't have a big enough
35:00
risk profile to be thinking about doing that. I want a safe, secure, steady, hard working
35:06
way forward. And people that are like, oh, you know, if we just do this, we can pull together some
35:11
money. This is a great investment and we'll get these returns. And it's not they don't have a
35:16
license or it's not through a regulated, you know, platform, for example, that to me would be like,
35:23
oh, warning bells, don't do not go there because you're not protected. If something happens,
35:27
the regulators can't protect you then. Yeah. Really good points. Do you think that's the biggest
35:33
financial learning or the biggest change in your behavior or what you've learned in terms of
35:39
how you deal with your, I guess, the financial advice you now get, all the financial recommendations,
35:44
is that you're a lot more concerned that everything's kind of by the book, whereas before you
35:49
probably a bit more, but more risk taking or potentially. And then I am much more critical on
35:56
the information that I get now. So if someone says to me, and it may not even be like it's across
36:03
the board for me now because I definitely see the world differently. But if someone says something
36:10
that I, something inside me goes, how about that? I'll go and research it or I'll ask another question.
36:16
Okay, really, I thought that did it and I don't have a problem being a little bit. And I don't
36:23
think antagonistic is the word. Some of them might have a better word for it for me, but I'm really
36:28
curious as to the information I'm getting. And I don't have a problem being bold about that now,
36:35
whereas before I was probably a bit more like, I'll just take it on face value. That's what they
36:39
said. That's what it is. In regard to anything now, I'm like, hey, I'm just good. I'm just going
36:44
to research that and just it's almost like fact checking. You're skeptical. You're skeptical,
36:49
not cynical. Yeah. It's all about, yeah, it's about trusting your gut. And it's like it's your
36:55
money. It's your heart and money. If you don't understand completely or your guts a bit off,
37:01
don't be afraid to ask those questions. Don't feel silly asking those questions. I think if someone
37:06
can't explain it in a way that makes sense to you or help you understand it or is a verse to helping
37:12
you understand, then yeah, that's that's a bit of a red flag as well. Yeah. I kind of want to
37:20
chat about the idea of hitting towards like where you are now seven years on. He's going to be
37:28
released from prison. Am I right in about two years or on parole in two years? I'm paroling
37:33
two and a bit years. And how do you feel in the lead up to that? And has that been dragging up,
37:40
you know, old, old wounds? Has it been actually cathartic to be towards the end? I don't know,
37:46
I'm just sort of curious to know how that feels. And also if there's still
37:51
pent up resentment or anger that you kind of feel like you want to actually say to him like,
37:57
is there any element of wanting to kind of close that chapter when he is released or not?
38:02
I've thought a lot about that. And what I do know about Hamish is that he's unable to tell the truth.
38:08
So even if I confronted him and asked him, you know, all the questions I have, all the unanswered,
38:16
you know, pieces of the puzzle that are still in my mind, you know, who's Claudia?
38:21
I don't think I'd ever get a straight answer. I don't think he has the capacity to tell the truth
38:26
is my honest opinion. I think he has a sickness. I think he is likely to do this again.
38:35
I, you know, he's never had another job. This is why he's done his whole life. Do I think he's
38:41
rehabilitated? I don't know, probably not. So no, I don't really have a desire to have a conversation
38:48
with him and close this off. What I've chosen to do is to unpick the story and write about it
38:58
with summer in the hope that it educates and for warns other people because, you know, what I do
39:05
know is like, a day doesn't go by when I don't get targeted by a scam or some sort of fraudulent
39:11
activity. And I think we're all in that boat now as well as our parents and, you know, soon to be
39:15
our children who have got their own devices with logins, et cetera. So, you know, this is a broad
39:20
conversation to have that goes beyond the very unfortunate and unlucky situation I found myself
39:29
in. And I think it's, it's a conversation that we need to have. We need to keep having it. We
39:33
need to be constantly aware because these tricksters, they're getting more and more sophisticated.
39:38
And I think the more that we can talk about it, the more comfortable we can get talking about it.
39:44
The more stories you hear about people getting scammed or losing money or losing their identity,
39:49
whatever the case may be, the more it's top of mind and the less likely it is to happen,
39:57
you know, it's not going to be fully eradicated. I'm aware of that. But, you know, I think this is
40:03
important conversation to keep having. So regardless of what Hamish does, this is a conversation
40:07
that needs to be continued and in writing the book and being able to put the detail behind how he
40:13
did it. And, you know, at the emotional side of it is how do you rebuild after such a traumatic
40:19
event? It is possible. It's completely possible. It's hard, but it's possible. And I wanted to ask
40:24
does that beacon of hope for people that may be judging through the mud at the moment with
40:28
their own emotional turmoil that, you know, the other end, out the other side, it's, you know,
40:34
it's a pretty good world out there. Tracy, I want to point out that I think when you were flattened
40:39
by Hamish, I remember you saying like, you just want to like, you're tired of hurting, right? You
40:46
just want to like expedite the healing process. But even though you were doing all of the
40:50
right things, like you actually just kind of had to sit with it and you couldn't skip to the part
40:55
where you had where you can't skip to where you are now, right? What did you call it? The spiritual
40:59
bite? Yeah, no one gets a spiritual bypass so that, you know, that whole like post traumatic
41:04
growth and you read all those things and you're like, I just want to be there now. I want to have
41:08
my post traumatic growth moment. And the reality is you have to go through all the feelings,
41:15
you have to go through all the despair, you have to do the work. And you have to take a really
41:21
long hard look at yourself as well. And, you know, that's taken years, that's taken years and years
41:27
and years for me to do. And we'll probably continue because I still, you know, there are there are
41:33
times and it's probably because we're talking a lot about it at the moment. We've written the book.
41:38
But, you know, I had a dream a couple of weeks ago and I could hear his voice. It was like he was in
41:42
my lounge room yelling out to me. I couldn't see him, but I heard his voice and it was just like,
41:49
I can still hear his voice so clearly in my mind. And that's just my subconscious like processing
41:56
the trauma, you know, and it's just part of it. And maybe, you know, not a day has gone by in
42:01
seven years when I haven't thought about this, not one day. Do you think you can be in love with
42:06
someone again? Yes, and I am. And you don't think every five seconds. I'm just going to quickly
42:12
Google this to make sure that you're, you know, I'm still here for your LinkedIn to check your
42:16
professional history and call your boss. Like, how do you, you know,
42:19
the scars on your body and make sure, and I know, if you got sick, well, my partner now is a man
42:29
that I met in my early 20s when we were working at a hedge fund startup company. And we worked
42:36
together for a few years and we both had met our respective partners and got married and when
42:41
away in her children, we lost contact for about 10 or 12 years. And we ran into each other in the
42:47
city. Actually, I was with Hamish at this, at this time when we ran into each other and reconnected.
42:55
And I was deeply in love with Hamish and Tim had just recently coming out of his marriage.
43:03
And we just became buddies. Like, we were like, we'd known each other for so long. And even though we
43:09
hadn't sort of connected in many years, we sort of, you know, we had that history. And then we just
43:14
became besties. Like, he would be my plus one at events. I would be his plus one. I, you know,
43:19
he got back into the dating scene at some point. So I wrote his profile, I chose, like, I filtered
43:24
all his pictures for him to make him look hot. And so we just became besties. And, you know, a year
43:31
after that, Hamish was arrested. And I was like, I was an absolute mess for a year. And he sort of,
43:37
you know, was there as my buddy and my friend. And then, you know, over a year after that, we ended
43:43
up getting together, which was very strange because we were best friends. So you missed the part
43:50
where he, like, takes you to, I'm like, I know. A lot of times he's like, oh, but you've got a
43:55
story. Maybe not like, like, don't go read the book, but like, like, it's really interesting
44:01
because he asked her the very same question. He sat her down in the beach and said,
44:05
, trace, they do everything you're going to be able to love again.
44:08
And I just burst into tears and ugly cry for the next half an hour. So that was awesome. But
44:13
yeah, it was, um, and then, you know, us getting together and, you know, there was a level of
44:20
comfort for me because I, I knew his past. I'd known him for 21 years. And I, I mean, look, I,
44:28
I don't know, like, well, I'm not in this situation. But if I wasn't with him, I don't know that I
44:33
could be with anyone else. I don't know. Like, certainly at the time we got together, I with
44:39
that, there was no way I was going near another relationship again. I was going to grow old as a cat
44:44
woman. You know, like, I had my cat, I had my kid. I was going to be happy doing that. And, um,
44:50
you know, it kind of crept up on me and he is a very patient man. And he has been through
44:56
everything with me. Um, he, we were working together when my dad died. And so he went through all of
45:02
that with me. And, um, you know, so he, we know each other very, very well. I know his family. I
45:09
can 100% trust him. But, you know, as in any relationship, there are, there are bumps along the
45:16
road because of our, you know, our fears and things that have happened to us. And, you know,
45:22
all I can say is a very patient. He's a very patient man. I'm so happy that you have found someone.
45:29
Thanks. Yeah. It makes the whole story like a happy ending, which I know is not always the case
45:33
with stories, but holy. It's nice that the shit I'm happy that that's, yeah. And some, you wrote
45:39
the book together and firstly cannot wait to read it. I don't think there would ever be a better
45:44
interview. Okay. Sorry. I don't mean like, we're good at interviewing. I just think,
45:48
listening to you speak, there's no way you wouldn't listen to that story and not want to read the book.
45:51
And now we know you. Oh my god. So, yeah. So looking forward to reading it. But I guess like,
45:58
from your perspective, having spoken to Tracy at like enormous length about what she went through
46:04
and, and being able to articulate that into a book, what kind of learning have you had being
46:09
alongside her throughout that process? And is there anything that you wanted to share for people
46:14
listening who might, I don't know, either be in a similar situation or maybe in the future or,
46:20
yeah, I don't know, I'm feeling like untrusting. What sort of your big learnings writing the book
46:25
with her? So many. She's the fearless leader we all need. But, but of a backstory,
46:31
Tracy actually slipped into my DNs on Instagram. So like, red flag number one, right? Like,
46:37
how many people do we just have to like block in your DNs? But she reached out to me and pretty,
46:43
pretty quickly. I'll just skip that little part, Tracy, where I was like,
46:46
hmm, everybody wants to write a book. She's like, I think it's a story. I was like, cool,
46:51
everyone does. And then she's like, so I was on this podcast called Who the Hell is Hamish. And I
46:55
knew exactly who she was. Because full disclosure, like, I'm a bit of a crime junkie. I love true crime.
47:01
I'm obsessed with these stories. And I'm even more obsessed when women like Tracy come out on top
47:09
and just completely like, maybe you're proud to call yourself a victim, yes. But you're,
47:14
and I don't want to use the word survivor, but you just like turned a heap of
47:20
bowl crap into this like shining beautiful thing that we can all learn from. And it was really
47:25
timely. Like, I'm a bit woo-woo. I think the universe brings you people at the right time.
47:29
Because right at that moment that you and I were having the conversation about your story,
47:33
anywhere in my DNs and we're emailing my my marriage ended. And I separated from my husband.
47:39
And I had two kids. And I like, I knew things were unstable financially. I knew that there was
47:45
like a little bit of deception. I didn't know the full extent of it. And while I'm writing Tracy's book,
47:52
it's kind of unfolding. And it's like, I have direct access to the perfect person to shepherd
48:00
me through it. Like, I remember, I feel really bad because when you are in kind of a traumatized
48:04
state, you make mistakes, right? Things slip through the cracks. So I'm like, you didn't get the
48:08
best version of me, Tracy. Like, definitely some typos in there and some stuff got dropped.
48:14
But I remember you sing things to me. Like, you're on the eye of the storm right now. Like,
48:18
everything is just going around. Like, you can't see anything. But like, you really made me trust
48:24
that there is calm. And the sun does shine again. And that you will rebuild any stronger. And she's
48:30
just living proof of that. So like, that would be the biggest takeaway for me.
48:34
Because I guess also for you, being able to write from a place of, like, raw emotion,
48:38
if you're going through a really similar experience, being able to articulate Tracy's story
48:43
through how you're feeling would have maybe been catholic. And you maybe came to
48:49
conclusions or realizations quicker than you would have if you didn't have Tracy alongside.
48:54
100% like parallel conversation or story comparison.
48:59
I should have paid you actually to, like, let me write a quick view because I feel like she was,
49:04
like, not only has she been through, like, a separation and been a single mom and then also had
49:09
some pretty devastating financial losses. Yeah, you were, like, counseling me through all of this.
49:15
And really, like, empowering me to ask the questions and talking me, like, like,
49:23
recognizing what was an emotional response and just being, like, encouraging me to get comfortable
49:28
with, like, letting go of my need of control and, like, really backing myself. So I felt like
49:32
you were the biggest cheerleader ever. And it's hard to write creatively when you don't feel good,
49:37
right? Like, normally, I'm, like, pumped up. What can I do? I'm thinking of everything. But, like,
49:41
I was pretty depressed for a few months of this stuff, not, like, pretty depressed, like,
49:45
very low, very sad. And I remember someone did say to me a fellow author who hadn't talked to you
49:51
in ages. And I told her what I was going through. And she said, you know, I only think that this is
49:55
going to make you a more empathetic writer. And when I started leaning into the pain more and
50:00
just, like, really feeling it, like, I think that's when the book really wrote itself, right? I was
50:05
just like, let's just combine our heartache. And you're in lean into that. Because normally,
50:10
I'm just like the bubbly hyper. Ooh, let's go, girl. And I had to find another way to get the
50:16
creative video. Do you think this happens a lot more than a lot of us realize in terms of
50:21
to see within relationships financially? Is this because even just the fact that you two
50:25
managed to find each other and you're going through it at the same time, it just makes me think
50:29
there must be so many people that have experienced that maybe don't even know what's happening.
50:34
Yeah, I don't know. Has there been all these stories that have come out of the woodwork
50:37
as you've been writing the story where you're like, wall, this is actually everywhere?
50:41
The amount, I can't tell you the amount of people that come to me, both friends and people I've
50:46
known for a long time. And then strangers that reach out to me and tell me their stories. And it
50:52
might be a scam or deception, it could be divorce, it could be illness. Like it is everywhere.
51:00
And this is what astounds me is like, I've had friends that after the podcast came out,
51:06
came and told me, oh, my parents lost all their superannuation to a fraudster back in 1986.
51:13
And I'm like, how is it that I've been friends with you for 18 years and we've never had this
51:18
conversation? How is that possible? Another girlfriend, oh, yeah, my dad lost millions
51:23
through a bad scam back in the UK did it. And I'm like, like, I can't, I still can't get my head
51:30
around it. But what it does is it opens up, I think by being vulnerable and telling the story and
51:35
going, you know what, this happens all the time, it happens to smart people, happens to good people,
51:41
and suddenly people go, okay, here's a door, here's how I can talk about it. I said at dinner one
51:46
night with this woman and her children, she was a 75 year old woman and her grown up children were
51:52
there at the dinner table. I sat opposite her and she had heard about my story and she started
51:58
telling me her story and I can't, I think it must have been in the 80s. She was 40, had gone through
52:04
a divorce with a fairly high profile man and she invested, she got her divorce settlement and
52:09
invested it with a friend who was shady and basically ran away with all of the money and they
52:15
went from a very nice lifestyle to pretty much not having anything and she's telling me the story,
52:22
tears streaming down her face, her kids' mouth, like they knew something had happened but they
52:26
didn't know the detail and she is telling me this story over the dinner one night and I'm just
52:32
saying I've never told anybody. She was 75 and I thought that poor woman, you know that poor
52:39
woman that is held onto that and you know of that generation that again, no tears at the dinner
52:44
table, don't burden the children and I just, my heart went out to her and I thought she's been
52:51
carrying this around for 35 years and I'm lucky enough to have been able to tell this story
52:58
to put it out into the world to hopefully help people like her. Do you think before we end
53:02
only because I got, I started feeling like I was climbing the hill of hope and then all of a
53:07
sudden I stood back down again when you were like, can we end on the top of the hill? I know,
53:11
but we climb back up with like what are some, you know, like can we finish on, yes it's probably,
53:17
there's a lot of scary nasty people out there who are doing this as a full-time job, like that's
53:23
just unfortunately the reality of the world we live in. What can people remember and hold on to
53:28
from a hope perspective to make sure that they're not one of those people? How I have put it together
53:38
in my brain is, you know, when I think about Hamish and people like Hamish, they are outliers,
53:45
you know, they are the top 1% of offenders in this world. So it's very unlikely that you're going
53:52
to come across somebody like them. I choose to believe that the world is inherently good. 99% of people
54:01
want to do the right thing, they want to exist in this world in peace and in happiness and
54:08
I believe that Hamish is where he needs to be and I get to live an incredible life, I see the ocean
54:14
every day, I can go running, I get to spend time with my family and friends and you know that's the
54:21
way I choose to look at the world. Hamish is an outlier, he's not the world. I just think about
54:27
your advice that you would give Asha, right? Like she's a daughter who's going to wait into the
54:31
dating pool soon and you're like, you don't want her to be afraid, you don't want her to go out
54:37
there looking for red flags because that's a shitty way to live. Yeah, and there's a shitty way to live,
54:42
isn't it? I would have done the opposite and be like, oh no, he's insane, but it's so true, I love
54:48
spend on it, it's like no, it is a terrible way to live. Well I think if you go into a relationship
54:56
just looking for the red flags, then love actually can't exist in that world. You know, it actually
55:05
can't and so you're never going to find love if you go into into a relationship with that in mind
55:11
and that's not to say you don't have your wits about you because you know we all know that it's
55:16
important to be really switched on, but love can't exist when all you're looking for is the red flags.
55:24
Thank you both so much for your time. I'm like honestly gobsmacked and yeah, we can't wait to
55:30
read the book, we'll put all of the information in details on our socials and in the podcast
55:34
show notes, but yeah, thank you both so much for your time. Thank you, thank you. Thanks for having
55:39
you. Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve. These conversations are designed to
55:46
teach you everything that you need to know to be better with your money, from saving, to investing,
55:51
to talking to your friends about your salaries, and if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
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If you could hit subscribe button please, or leave a review, it'll take five seconds and it would
56:02
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