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Sam Lake: "I had to take six months off after Alan Wake 2" · The Game Business Show

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: There is that kind of a slight feeling.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are you trying to tell me something?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Am I done?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Have I peaked?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Are you telling me that, okay, run along now?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of what we achieved.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I was at the point where I just had to...
• 0:26
  do a sapatikau,
• 0:27
  like I went away at the end of the project for half a year.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to The Game Business Show,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: your guide to the goings-on in the global video game industry.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: We have mostly featured business leaders on this show so far,
• 0:42
  but today we have a real creative pioneer and one of the most
• 0:45
  distinct voices
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: making big-scale video games today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: He is known for such seminal works as Max Payne,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Alan Waite Control,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: and 2023's award-winning,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: critically acclaimed Alan Waite 2.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: He has exceptional taste in suits and loves a coffee.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's the creative director over at Remedy, Sam Lake.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Sam.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Chris.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure to be here.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I do have my coffee.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just to get that in.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 1:12
  You told me when I saw you at GDC,
• 1:15
  this is what this interview sort of related to.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you were telling me that,
• 1:19
  was it the Alan Wake One remastered campaign that that whole
• 1:22
  coffee thing came about?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: My fancy coffee TikTok.
• 1:28
  Alan Wake remastered didn't have a huge marketing campaign and
• 1:33
  I wanted to do my part.
• 1:35
  So I did a couple of coffee videos finding our,
• 1:40
  oh dear,
• 1:41
  diner Alan Wake coffee thermoses.
• 1:44
  in the forest and in a lake and did these kinds of videos and
• 1:48
  then forgot all about
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: the whole TikTok.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then when we were gearing up for Alan Lake 2 campaign,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I tried to think of something that would be so easy,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: like it wouldn't be
• 2:03
  stressful to kind of like create more videos and traveling all
• 2:09
  around the world,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: promoting the game.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just started thinking that,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 2:15
  taking a sip of coffee wherever I am in the world and doing a
• 2:19
  video and putting
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: some nice music in the background and
• 2:23
  It's been going on for several years now and with a lot of
• 2:28
  amazing guest stars joining in.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Does it not get tiring when fans say, can I do a video?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can I do... Have you had to set rules?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 2:37
  a lot of the fans have been doing their own coffee videos and
• 2:42
  linking them over
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: social media,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: which I really appreciate the effort.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not here to talk about coffee.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here because congratulations on your GDC Lifetime Achievement Award.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Although you picked up, you're getting a few of these awards now.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing a keynote at Develop Brighton.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a farewell tour for Sam Lake, is it?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean...
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: All of this is a huge honor, especially coming after Alan Wake 2.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was like all of these games,
• 3:14
  making them hard work and in many ways because of the
• 3:19
  circumstances around
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: For the longest time,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: not being able to get to Alan Wake 2,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: it felt like a very personal project.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to try to push the creative side as far as I could.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Remedy turning 30 years.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And me being at Remedy,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: towards the end of this year,
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have been working at Remedy for 30 years.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's wonderful.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, there is that kind of a...
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Slight feeling like, are you trying to tell me something?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Am I done?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Have I peaked?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are you telling me that, okay, run along now?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: But no, like honestly, still a lot of passion and a lot of ideas.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think like doing this kind of work
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: kind of training your mind to react on obstacles,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: coming up with creative ideas on how to go forward.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Ideas, like, they won't stop coming.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: even,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: taking a break and going on holiday,
• 4:32
  I've learned to always carry a notebook with me because that's
• 4:36
  when the ideas start coming,
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: the new ideas.
• 4:39
  Yeah,
• 4:39
  you need to give yourself that space for those things as well because,
• 4:41
  yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: let's talk a little bit about the Alan Wake team because last time,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: last time we spoke,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: we spoke to each other a few times.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've run into each other a few times.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: The last time we spoke sort of formally was on stage at EGX in London.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Packed out crowd, standing room only.
• 4:57
  I mean,
• 4:57
  it felt like a proper celebration,
• 4:59
  but I remember backstage,
• 5:01
  you looked tired.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: The game still wasn't quite ready yet.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you might have been anxious.
• 5:06
  It feels like it might have been a bit of a torturous journey
• 5:09
  to that point.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, it was such a successful game.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: It did so well.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was so well received.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: How were you feeling at that point?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was tired.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was very tired and stressed.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And well, that's part of this work, I feel.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Making games, it's a very complex thing.
• 5:30
  And especially with Alan Wake 2,
• 5:34
  as I said,
• 5:35
  I really,
• 5:36
  really wanted to kind of like be hands on.
• 5:40
  I mean,
• 5:40
  it's always teamwork and wonderful colleagues,
• 5:44
  really talented people.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I really wanted to be hands on in many areas,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: writing,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: directing,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: also co-directing the live action parts,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: which we had a lot.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be involved in making the music,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: especially the lyrics with a lot of wonderful musicians collaborating.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was acting a part in it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of elements there.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: When this kind of a big machine production starts rolling,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: it's not built around one person's availability.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to do all of these different...
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: things,
• 6:26
  you need to be flexible and you need to stress and stretch and
• 6:30
  you need to be
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: working like a crazy person to achieve it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I felt it was worth it, but it was a lot.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And there is always this struggle of,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: the creative vision,
• 6:44
  but then the production realities and the schedules and the
• 6:49
  budget and the scope
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's complicated.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: So towards the end,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
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  SPEAKER_01: I had been working a lot of nights and a lot of weekends and for a long,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: long time,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I was very tired.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of what we achieved.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I was at the point where I just had to...
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: do a sabbatical.
• 7:17
  Like I went away at the end of the project for half a year and
• 7:23
  that was much needed
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: and well,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: feeling much better these days after it.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you go?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Did you go anywhere nice?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: some,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: some vacation trips and then just like,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: as,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: as you do in Finland,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: summer cabin over a long summer and,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: and yeah,
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: just taking it easy and not building any kind of a,
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  SPEAKER_01: I must do this and this and this,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: but rather keeping the,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: keeping the calendar empty.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: But you had your notebook with you.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And plenty of ideas for sure.
• 8:03
  It's weird though,
• 8:03
  because I guess video games aren't necessarily built that way.
• 8:06
  That sort of auteur,
• 8:07
  sort of somebody in being involved in every corner of the project.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: It gives games, you know, Kojima brings springs to mind.
• 8:13
  It creates a sort of unique style that you don't get from other
• 8:15
  games of that scale.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: But because of the complexity of making video games,
• 8:19
  it doesn't feel like a very sustainable way from an individual
• 8:22
  point of view to
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: making a game like this.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously it can pay off even if you have to break yourself to do it.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would not be doing
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: that alone.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I really believe in collaboration.
• 8:41
  Kyle Rowley is the game director,
• 8:43
  so we were co-directing this whole thing.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was writing it together with Clay Murphy.
• 8:49
  Ansi Mata is our live action director,
• 8:51
  so we were co-directing live action parts.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there were, as I said, wonderful musicians.
• 8:58
  So I felt that I had a very talented kind of a professional
• 9:03
  partner in every area.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Who could,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: contribute in a big,
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: big way and could also carry it if I needed to be somewhere else.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: How would you rank it then in terms of your achievements?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because it feels to me,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: it feels like I think it's the best work by,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: and then that's saying something.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about it?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, time does things to how you feel about
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: your projects and getting some distance.
• 9:35
  I don't think that we are far enough from Alan Wake to really
• 9:39
  yet to be able to compare.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I'm very proud and I'm very happy.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I feel through all of our games,
• 9:51
  there are certain elements that I've been really interested in
• 9:56
  interactive
• 9:57
  storytelling that I've been kind of like experimenting on and
• 10:01
  building on,
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: like bringing in different mediums into the video game context.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly we were able to push that
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: much further, I would say, a leap forward in this one.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that includes live action,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: that includes,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: pages of prose and poetry and photography and,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:28
  a musical sequence with dance choreography and custom songs
• 10:33
  with custom lyrics that
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: are about the storytelling.
• 10:35
  And all of these things kind of like finding a way to weave
• 10:40
  them together is something that I
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really interested in and feel passionate about.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: But also in Alan Wake 2,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: we managed to finally,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would say in a Remedy game,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: create gameplay mechanics that were about the story,
• 11:01
  not just about like having your action core gameplay and then
• 11:06
  experiencing the
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: story on the side.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: But finally, with the
• 11:11
  case board and the plot board and finding clues and all of this
• 11:15
  kind of like we
• 11:16
  were bringing now finally mechanics that are about how you
• 11:21
  experience the story and
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: how you kind of like put the story together.
• 11:26
  That as well felt like a clear step forward when it comes to
• 11:30
  storytelling in the
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: context of a game.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was certainly distinctive.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: When the news came out that you were making Alan Wake 2,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was extremely excited because I was a big fan of the very first game.
• 11:42
  But as a business journalist,
• 11:44
  my brain also thought,
• 11:46
  well,
• 11:46
  that makes little financial sense.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever felt tempted to just,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: make a big first-person shooter or open-world action RPG and just,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: cash in?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not the poetry this time, not the live action.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to make a hit.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make myself a 10 million select.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you could.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: the whole story of making the first Alan Wake game.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: it's well documented that we were planning on doing an open world,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: free roaming open world game,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: and we failed.
• 12:28
  We just couldn't make it work,
• 12:31
  and we kind of like went into more linear direction.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we have been on the design side taking steps
• 12:40
  steps to let's say a more modern way of building the world and
• 12:45
  the missions and
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: control was a big step into that kind of like this semi-open hub like
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: structure.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the credit for that in a big way goes to Mikhail Kasurinen,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: who is the game director on the control side,
• 13:05
  bringing that and very much the learnings from that we took
• 13:08
  into Alan Wake 2.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so the world was built in hubs
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: and then we have missions in the hub.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's already, it's not a linear tool, it's a more open structure.
• 13:20
  I think that that has been that one kind of like learning is
• 13:26
  that we have taken
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: steps towards various goals patiently,
• 13:33
  kind of like step by step instead of doing too big of a leap
• 13:38
  and suddenly being in
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: a place where
• 13:40
  we are not really that familiar with these elements and don't
• 13:44
  have experience,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: but rather building towards it.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we are looking into more open structure in some cases.
• 13:55
  I think it's logical to build on what we have,
• 13:59
  on the foundation of the previous game.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there is that.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it's...
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my passion is in storytelling.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really,
• 14:15
  really kind of like want to keep on finding opportunities to
• 14:19
  explore like new ideas
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: within that context in the games.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know I say I'm a business journalist,
• 14:28
  but I would argue focusing on what you do well and the things
• 14:33
  that you create.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't chase the trends, you know.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: But video game costs keep going up, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the time it takes to make them seems to be getting longer and longer.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not quite as long as the first Alan Wake, right?
• 14:45
  How mindset are you as a writer and a creative director to
• 14:50
  those sort of financial
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: pressures surrounding the business?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you just sort of leave those concerns aside when making something?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, everybody has a role, which is a positive thing.
• 15:01
  Like I was just talking about stretching thin in trying to do
• 15:07
  various things,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: adding,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: business side to it or production,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: would be quite a lot.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: That being said,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: you need to be mindful of these things because ultimately,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: if you are not,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: you will not be able to create the game.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: This side of things needs to be taken into account.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And for me...
• 15:34
  More and more,
• 15:36
  I've grown to think that this is the early phases of a project
• 15:43
  are so crucial.
• 15:46
  Making solid plans,
• 15:49
  doing estimates,
• 15:50
  making sure that what we are about to start
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: building is within the accurate scope and also in a case of story-focused
• 16:03
  experience that we have a screenplay and we are far enough in
• 16:09
  figuring out the
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: story so that
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: we can when we kick off the actual production,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: because that's the most expensive part,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: just having 100,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: 150 people on monthly salary,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: it starts burning the budget really fast.
• 16:30
  So making sure that all the plans are in place and tested and
• 16:36
  vetted and that also
• 16:39
  very much speaks for building on the foundation of what you
• 16:44
  know and what you have
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: already kind of built and,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:49
  team being familiar with the tools that you are using and
• 16:54
  preferably key members of
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: the team having been there to build the previous experience.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: and then just kind of like going from there.
• 17:05
  There is a lot of excitement in new ideas always,
• 17:09
  but I also think that there is nothing wrong
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: in the idea of building a sequel based on the previous games.
• 17:20
  I don't see Alan Wake 2 quite that way because there was such a
• 17:25
  huge gap in between
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: and games had really moved forward.
• 17:30
  But just this idea of building something and then relying on
• 17:36
  certain things that
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: were successful in that
• 17:39
  and creating more and then,
• 17:42
  sure,
• 17:43
  innovating in some areas that just makes it more predictable.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: That consistency does obviously help,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:49
  that sort of consistency from one game to the other and being
• 17:51
  able to build upon
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: everything you've done before.
• 17:54
  From the outside,
• 17:55
  though,
• 17:55
  Remedy does look like a pretty unique place to work with.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: afford you and your teammates to do these sort of wild,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: experimental,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: unusual things,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: or at least they feel wild and experimental in the AAA game space.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Have they ever said no?
• 18:10
  Have you ever come to them with an idea and a pitch and they've gone,
• 18:13
  Sam,
• 18:13
  absolutely not.
• 18:15
  Well,
• 18:16
  I mean,
• 18:18
  certainly there are passionate and sometimes heated discussions.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is to create successful entertainment products.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I want to put in as much art as possible,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: but ultimately here at Remedy,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: we are,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: everybody is
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: own this together and success on one side then is success for everybody.
• 18:49
  There is sensibility in people having different viewpoints and
• 18:53
  roles and then kind
• 18:55
  of like voicing ideas and voicing concerns is an important part
• 19:02
  of the process.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's rarely the case where, and I would not even want it that way, that
• 19:11
  Let's say myself or some other creative or game director would
• 19:17
  be just coming with
• 19:18
  an idea and there would not be iteration on the idea based on
• 19:25
  very early notes.
• 19:28
  You will miss things and you have not thought about things from
• 19:32
  all angles.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's teamwork.
• 19:36
  even on kind of like early production sensibilities and
• 19:42
  business sensibilities.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the earliest conversations that we have.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's part of this and it makes this work possible.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's an important part of it.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sure.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody loves being told that this doesn't work,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: your idea doesn't work,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: but that is an important step into making something that works.
• 20:10
  That being said,
• 20:11
  I fully believe that being unique and being original and doing
• 20:17
  some things that
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: make you stand out are vital for competition perspective.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: There is a lot of noise out there, a lot of great games.
• 20:31
  So making the same kind of a game and maybe not having as much
• 20:37
  resources as the really,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: really big platform owners or own studios have,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to find a way to stand out.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: A game like Alan Wake 2, how much of this is the game you wanted to make?
• 20:53
  And how much of it is you thinking about the audience and what
• 20:55
  you think they would
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: want to receive?
• 20:57
  That sort of balance between sort of an artistic expression of
• 21:00
  yourself whilst also
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: trying to make a product,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: really,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: for an audience.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it needs to be both.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be both always.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a long journey making a game.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a struggle and you will be tired.
• 21:15
  So it needs to be something you fully believe in and feel
• 21:19
  passionate about.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you will not
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like have the strength to push through.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's one side of it.
• 21:28
  You need to be really,
• 21:29
  really excited about making this kind of an experience.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then I feel as creative and with experience of the previous games,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: suddenly we analyze and look
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: at the reception of our previous games and do analysis on them,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: like which parts worked great,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: which were not liked to the point of a trend.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we shouldn't repeat the weakest parts again,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: hopefully,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: and come up with something better on that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel from a creative perspective,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: you can be passionate about succeeding in that as well.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And very much one example would be now that we are building a universe,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Remedy Connected universe between Alan Wake and Control,
• 22:30
  it would kind of be easy to fall into the trap of just making
• 22:35
  the experience for
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: you being very deep in that lore,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: but also your most excited fans who very much know everything.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not the ambition.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: The ambition very much, and I fully kind of like
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: sign on the dotted line on the idea of we want to make every game,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's a sequel or whether it's part of the universe,
• 23:08
  something that is approachable for a newcomer who has never
• 23:14
  played a Remedy game before.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to play it through.
• 23:19
  Yes,
• 23:19
  you will probably miss connections and optional content that is
• 23:24
  more lore heavy,
• 23:25
  but
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: you should be able to experience the critical path and enjoy it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of a puzzle to solve with each of these games.
• 23:39
  And a lot of the idea of two playable characters and having the
• 23:44
  FBI agent Saga
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Anderson be kind of like a dual protagonist in Alan Wake 2 comes
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: initially from this idea that she doesn't know this world,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: she doesn't know this supernatural or lore,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: and she comes in to investigate and the whole setup of
• 24:06
  FBI agents coming into a place that they don't know to
• 24:11
  investigate a murder is very
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: much very familiar to a wide,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: wide audience.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So as a starting point,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: making that be the beginning of the game,
• 24:23
  making it approachable for somebody who doesn't know anything
• 24:26
  about Alan Wake.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: or Remedy Universe was part of a solution to this kind of,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: and I feel really happy about what we did with that.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it's this kind of like,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: it's puzzling these things together and,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: then creating Wit Saga.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: the story I feel passionate to tell,
• 24:47
  but also being mindful of the audience and kind of ambition for
• 24:53
  reaching a larger audience.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Great answer.
• 24:57
  I'll change the subject a little bit because I read your GQ
• 24:59
  interview and you
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: talked about the character of Sam Lake.
• 25:02
  I remember the first time I got an email from you and I said,
• 25:04
  who's this Sammy Jarvi?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who's he?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Who's he?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: But also it's not just,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: the name is the coffee,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's the suits,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: and you sort of played this role for quite a long time now.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do you still see two distinct sides of yourself?
• 25:17
  Or is there an element of not really knowing where Sam Lake
• 25:20
  ends and Sammy Jarvis begins?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are you sort of slowly merging into a different person?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 25:30
  It can also be kind of a buffer and a bit of a,
• 25:36
  you know,
• 25:36
  a shield in a way.
• 25:39
  But then once again,
• 25:40
  time does things to you and your perception of things.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was very self-conscious and shy growing up.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I really hated it.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: performing.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not quite right.
• 25:56
  The small things of performing,
• 26:00
  say,
• 26:00
  in a school play,
• 26:01
  I didn't mind,
• 26:03
  but there's the role then.
• 26:05
  But doing a presentation in front of a class was the absolute
• 26:09
  horrifying thing.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And early years promoting Max Payne,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was so nervous about demoing the game and talking about it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, I did not have any
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: hesitation or problems in posing as Max Payne in the first game.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there is this weird schizophrenic thing and,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: the spelling of Finnish names is tricky.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw so many errors in the credits of the first game,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: which was Death Rally by our publisher in the manual.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Many of the names were misspelled and always kind of like,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: explaining how to spell it just felt like a chore.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I also,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: early on,
• 27:04
  I was feeling quite strongly that when I write in my native
• 27:08
  tongue in Finnish,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: what comes out is very different from writing in English.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that felt like an important point to me.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So using the artist's name Sam Lake,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: from early on felt like a solution.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt good about that.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it was a bit of a, you know, a role in a sense.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: when you do it years that there is,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: it feels like there never was an option to go back anymore.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't make any sense.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: These days,
• 27:47
  Having professionally written in English and more and more in
• 27:53
  my work life,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: English is the language we communicate in the documentation,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: but here also because Remedy,
• 28:03
  half of the people working at Remedy come from somewhere else
• 28:07
  than Finland.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's been going on for so long.
• 28:11
  I don't believe anymore that my output when I write and how I
• 28:17
  see it is that
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: difference between the languages.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I feel,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: maybe I've gotten better with the language along the way as well,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't feel that there is difference anymore.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't feel that strongly about, you know, doing so much of the
• 28:38
  promotion work,
• 28:39
  I don't feel shy about it anymore or haven't for years and years.
• 28:44
  So these things evolve,
• 28:46
  but well,
• 28:48
  I'm happy to be Sam Lake in all of this.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of us,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: particularly anyone that has a role that's remotely public facing,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: you've got to
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: You play versions of yourself, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you're completely different.
• 29:02
  It's just that when I started doing this,
• 29:05
  and nowadays,
• 29:05
  I don't even think twice about it.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was on the BBC this morning talking about my Minecraft movie,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: 10 years ago,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: the thought of that would have sent me into a meltdown.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like I do love
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: the meta layer of storytelling and being aware of these roles.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I do feel like that is part of the reason why,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sam Lake as a character,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: especially now in Alan Wake in various ways in DLC as well,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: keeps popping in into the fiction.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's part of this kind of like
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: hold on,
• 29:46
  how does this role actually work and what does it mean and how
• 29:50
  much of it is
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: fiction and not.
• 29:52
  So that just feels like a natural extension of thinking about
• 29:57
  these things and
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: playing around with them.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: With your personality and doing TikToks with coffee,
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: you do a little bit of PR and marketing,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: for your games.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And now that Remedy is sort of moving into self-publishing,
• 30:09
  are they tapping you on the shoulder now to be the head of
• 30:12
  marketing and to come up
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: with some of the plans?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Happily not.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I feel we are still figuring it out and we are in a transition position.
• 30:22
  Remedy have grown so much and for years and years,
• 30:27
  it was always one game.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: at a time, and now it's several.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: coming out of Alan Wake too,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: feeling that I was like doing as much as I possibly could do,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: the question of,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: how about doing another project on the side simultaneously?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: just feels, well, that's too much.
• 30:57
  And so what we have now done already for a while is that I'm
• 31:03
  not the only creative
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: director in the company.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Mikael Kasurinen
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: is we are co-creative directors now and we are dividing work.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: every project like I will have a project where I'm deep,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: go deep and be hands on.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Mikael has a project that he goes deep and is hands on.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond that, we are planning
• 31:34
  the overall universe and we are involved,
• 31:38
  say,
• 31:38
  with Annapurna Pictures now.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 31:42
  You know,
• 31:42
  exploring the ideas of our world and our universe being also in
• 31:49
  linear media.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: But every project has a kind of a strong creative core group of its own.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And how I see it is that
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: For this project,
• 32:03
  I'm really more a consultant coming in when they want notes or
• 32:10
  when we have an
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: internal gate,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: kind of looking at it from the perspective of my expertise,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: which would be then storytelling and just giving advice when needed.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: This definitely feels like the best experience.
• 32:26
  a solution we have figured out to just growing and doing things simultaneously.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise,
• 32:35
  if it's up to one person to kind of come up with the vision and
• 32:40
  direct it through,
• 32:42
  then we would still be doing more or less one project or one
• 32:46
  bigger project and
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: another tiny project or something like that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the ambition is to do more.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: The reason why I asked the marketing,
• 32:55
  I remember speaking to someone at Bethesda years ago who said
• 32:58
  that Todd Howard is
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: actively involved in the marketing because for their point of view,
• 33:02
  the first time their audience touches Fallout or experiences
• 33:06
  Fallout is when they
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: see the trailer,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's when they see the artwork.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess you are involved in that stuff anyway.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:12
  And of course,
• 33:13
  the things like drinking a cup of coffee in a lake is all very,
• 33:16
  very Alan Wake.
• 33:17
  I guess that's the marketing has to also understand the vision
• 33:20
  of the project and
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: understand the vibe and the theme.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 33:24
  But that's the question of what's the cause and what's the
• 33:27
  effect that meet me in a
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: lake is that because in Finland,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: that's what you do in the summer with thousands of lakes.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we have a lower focused on a lake in Alan Wake or
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: do I go into lake because there is a lake in Anand Wake.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very much,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: and more and more I feel,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: maybe that's an age question as well,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: more and more I feel I'm drawing inspiration from
• 34:02
  Finnish culture and kind of like things that are very familiar
• 34:07
  to me growing up here.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that gives that the uniqueness as well we talked about earlier.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm conscious of the time.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: seeing as you have a lifetime achievement,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: you've achieved all the things you need to achieve in your lifetime.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, another lifetime's worth.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the next lifetime?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: What would you...
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's your what you like to achieve?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: You wanted to write books initially.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is that part of that?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it still love for video games?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking that I would be a novelist and then Remedy happened.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is a 30 year detour to that dream.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm hoping that I will
• 34:52
  get a chance maybe once I finally retire from making games to
• 34:59
  still do creative
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: work and write and have other maybe then smaller,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: more personal projects.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: But not yet.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Personally, right now, I mean, we have
• 35:11
  A lot of games in the making keeps me busy for sure and
• 35:16
  planning the universe beyond.
• 35:18
  I am personally really excited about the possibilities with
• 35:22
  Annapurna on TV and film.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And for sure,
• 35:26
  we've been trying to get something started on and off for years
• 35:31
  and years and years.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we are in very early stages now.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm aware that it's a complex process and you never know.
• 35:43
  But I have to say that they are a wonderful partner and I am
• 35:47
  cautiously optimistic about
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like our exciting discussions there.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: I hope to be able to be involved in that process as it goes forward.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm certainly looking forward to,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I sort of feel like I know what a Sam Lake movie might be like.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: based on what you've done in games,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: but I get a sense of it,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it would still be very,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: very surprising.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Sam, for your time.
• 36:16
  It's a pleasure to have you on the show and to give us so much
• 36:18
  of your time and
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: insight into what you're doing.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And congratulations again on your award.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this was fun.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for today's episode of The Game Business Show.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Join us later in the week for our news and analysis show.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Until then, thank you for tuning in.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Greatest movie of all time?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say Maltese Falcon.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: PC or console?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Console these days, yes.
• 36:43
  If you could direct a video game based on a franchise other
• 36:46
  than your own,
• 36:47
  what would it be?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: I would do Moomin' game.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, very Finnish.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Greatest album of all time?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Tom Wade's Rain Dogs.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: How many suits do you own?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Seven or eight.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Put it behind.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't have a coffee, what do you drink?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I drink green tea.
• 37:09
  And what one piece of advice would you give to budding video
• 37:12
  game creators?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Start creating.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: For me and many other video game makers,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: tabletop role-playing games can be a surprisingly great,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: low barrier of entry.