Latest / The Future Travel Experience (FTE) Podcast / Darin Juby on his BIWG mission to banish the 'I never check a bag so I never lose a bag' mantra

Transcript

Darin Juby on his BIWG mission to banish the 'I never check a bag so I never lose a bag' mantra · The Future Travel Experience (FTE) Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Ever felt like the world is moving too fast, that there's simply not enough time between clearing your inbox and joining the next team's call to give deep and meaningful thought to the technologies that are about to transform your aviation operation?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, help is at hand with this new future travel experience podcast.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Proud to be part of the Apex family.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Max Gosny.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in for a collaborative and friendly forum where we'll guide you on the innovations that are too important to ignore.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode, I'll be interviewing aviation chiefs who've blazed a trail with new technology.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can listen on your way to work while travelling to an Apex FTE event, or even while walking your dog.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever your preference, you'll uncover a wealth of collaboration, best practice, and creative thinking.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the episode where I meet with our very own, the man himself, Darren Juby, head of Apex Future Travel Experiences Baggage Innovation Working Group.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Darren is a former director of baggage services at Greater Toronto Airports Authority.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Darren talks to me about why all great innovation starts with yes.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: How he, you won't be surprised to hear, has worked out the most efficient way to bring the shopping in from the back of the car when the dubies head to the supermarket.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Darren also talks about his ambition to banish the statement, I never check a bag because I never want to lose a bag from our industry vernacular.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: To tell us about how he's going to go about doing it, here is Darren.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the episode.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, Darren.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Joining us all the way from the shores of a lake, I believe, just north of Toronto.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the pod.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Max.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a beautiful summer day here in uh in slightly northern Canada.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent stuff.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Darren, you are our head of transformation at Future Travel Experience and um the captain of the BIWG Baggage Innovation Working Group.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: What attributes do you think you have to have to be really good at that role as head of transformation that you obviously display in spades?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say a lot of it is almost uh ingrained and natural.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, whether or not uh it's something that my my family or my wife would uh say is the quality that I have, is it's either good or bad, is my my my desire to be efficient, whether or not I'm bringing groceries in from the uh the car trunk.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um always thinking of ways that I can you know get everything in in one trip.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you know the efficiency part is you know something that that I think you can, of course, anyone can uh can learn things, but some of it is sort of ingrained in people.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that's sort of how I live my life.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of within my career, um, led me to to always you know asking uh why or how.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then also, you know, starting with yes has always been my the way that that I lead my life and lead my the you know continue to lead my career.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know, you start with if if uh there's something you're trying to solve, problem you're trying to solve, an idea you're trying to, you know, change something, then start with yes.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So how how might you do it?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then sometimes you you end up with you know continuing on a path of what you started.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Other times you end up with a a yeah but.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then from that you can you then you know you then pivot and you still come with a way to solve the the problem.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's innovation.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um innovation's not necessarily you know a brand new iPhone.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um innovation comes in many different ways and it can be very minor.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but always always innovating to me is always trying to do things uh not just differently, but trying to solve problems and and and in solving that and making either your processes or what you're trying to make better.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: To me, that's innovation.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: It can be very small and it can be large.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: You are you're naturally curious from the way you describe yourself.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: You have a you know thirst for thirst for knowledge and curiosity about how to improve something.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I think uh that is definitely a quality that you know I see in our group.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Many people um in our group have, you know, of course, everyone's a different person, their own their own people.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: But there's that natural curiosity, and and I say that to any new members that come into our group or people that are considering, is that you've got a bunch of believers.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, when we have our meetings, we have our conversations, our networking, these are all people who want to to make the the airport and the baggage quests in particular better.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's pretty unique, right?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, in your normal day-to-day work in a large company like I worked at at Toronto Pearson, you've got to mix up some people who are really good at process, and some people are really good at um details of financials, all those things are all necessary in a in a complex environment like an airport aviation industry.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in our group, we we are sort of free from that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: We are we are free to discuss the possible.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I think that's really refreshing.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get into um the baggage all and an innovation in the airport, I've I've got to pick up on something you said.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh can you can you tell me?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is a great opportunity to educate me.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: What is the most efficient way to get your shopping and your groceries in from the car?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I'm intrigued by that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: What have you come up with?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can I'm picturing conveyor belts out of the GP household.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um it always depends.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's uh to me, what what really you know and the groceries just sort of a silly example, but it's almost anything.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I guess, and I described this to my to my son when he first started driving, is that the way that that my mind works, rightly or wrongly, it is what it is, is I'm always thinking, you know, almost in steps.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: If this happens, this happens, this happens.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll can decide if I grab this bag and that bag, or if I'm going out to the even through the kitchen, if I as I'm walking through, I'll put things in the dishwasher.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, these are all just uh you know silly examples, but but I would say that's the way that my brain works, whether I'm driving, whether I'm whatever I'm doing, I'm thinking through the steps in advance.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's exhausting.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not I'm not recommending this.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying this is this is better or you know, it's the way to do things, but it's just the way that my mind works.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and yeah, and so that you know that that creates some you know some opportunities in in coming up with new solutions.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It also is uh can sometimes be uh exhausting and challenging to those that are around me all the time.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's a blessing and a curse, like any talent.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess they're always about snooker players here that um you can think two or three shots ahead.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not about the next shot, but you can see the map of how that one will influence that one.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds a similar mindset that you've got where you're not only seeing the next change, but three or four down the line and that and how it affects the total system.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's it's it's not something that I you know didn't train myself to do it.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: It just I don't know, it just seemed to that's the way I I mean it's my D it's in my DNA, as they say.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Whether or not that's true or not, it just that's how I live my whole life.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's sometimes it's hard to shake too.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to relax.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we love it, and that's why you're you're doing such a brilliant job as captain of the BIWG.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And Darren, from that vantage point at the the head of the BIWG, what big trends do you see in baggage handling uh innovation?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so the next five years within baggage and then moving out to ramp.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so from baggage, uh what I really believe is going to happen is we've spent you know a lot of the last you know two years talking about um how we need to make the baggage system uh more consistent.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not a word that people use all the time, and it's kind of boring.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, consistency is that's not an exciting word, you wouldn't think something that that that people would use in a baggage innovation working group.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's really what we've been struggling with as a as a industry is that you know lots of stories about you know, coming out of the pandemic, about uh lost bags and bag tags, air tags, and and trying to some of the issues we had as the industry recovered.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: That really got us thinking about you know how we how we do things differently.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So knowing where bags are, um, and there's many different ways of doing that.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know IAT has been leading that, you know, uh a way to track things.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so that that's definitely important.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and how do we do that differently?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are bag tags the same?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Are they different?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Are they electronic?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do they show where they are?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: All that good things, but knowing where bags are and who has ownership of them at all times, that's definitely been you know a theme over the last few years, and you really see that you know, picking up speed, so to speak.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and how will that look in the future?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, will you see more electronic bag tags?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: What will they look like?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, to be honest.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: They may look like they are, you know, people are working on them today.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Again, they they change uh every year, get you know that much better.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that trend will continue.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, lots of lots of talk about too, about when you're you know tracking um and and sort of sorting bags as an example, uh using computer vision and imaging, that's all starting to come to fruition.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Again, the the compute power of what AI, computer vision, machine learning, all of those those those terms just make things um uh makes things uh increasingly possible.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you I see that picking up speed and and and it's you know, like any technology, it almost gets uh exponentially faster.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that to me is really exciting.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, what do you do with that information?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So now you've got great information about bags and where they are.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, how do you move them?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: How you know the the the lifetime baggage handler, um, rightly or wrongly, you know, again, is probably not a reality anymore.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that job people want to do for their whole life, it's very hard work.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, how might technology help us?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, technology is to help to help the um to help the you know the baggage handlers, but then also again is a more consistent basis.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we the same way as factories went through changes years ago, you know, there's still humans in factories, you know, there's they're not totally you know dark rooms, that's for sure.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so how do humans work with machines and how do it make their their life better, make them uh more consistent so that our product is consistently delivered.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be loading aids, unloading aids, robotics, um you know, all those are are you know, years ago they were just talked about.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: They were ideas, and and you know, to be to give credit where credit's due, airports like Schiphol have had them in and Heathrow in for 10, 15 years.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Early days, and they you know they were they were learning, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: They were early adopters.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: I see that that technology has gotten so much better.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and it's just advanced again with with the uh technology that's available and the in the compute power.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I see that picking up speed.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're starting to see it used every day in airports like Oslo.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming to Heathrow, it's already in Schiphol, um Brussels, you know, the other airports are starting to uh are starting to use that's going to become a reality, and and that's really exciting, in my opinion.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So do you see still see that that human at the base of the baggage hall that when it hits April level loading the ULD?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are they doing it alongside a robot?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just a robot doing that process in the future?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because we saw some interesting stuff, I think, on our recent BRWG meeting around you know robot arm loading alongside a human.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're always gonna need humans to monitor what the the robotic aids are doing as well as um you know, sort of operating the robotic aids, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna, I don't I really don't believe in the next five years, especially you're going to see you know completely you know, lights out dark rooms where you've just you know things are moving, like it's say is uh in some sort of an automated factory, and even then you still have people.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but what you'll see, and I what I'm hopeful for, is that the people that are doing that work will be upskilled, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: So now they're not doing the physical labor, they're they're technicians that are monitoring robotic loading aids.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, do you need as many people to monitor those?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: That could be, you know, that could definitely be a reality the same way again as you saw in factories over the the years.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in doing that though, that the you know there still will be need humans to to monitor what they're doing, to you know, do the last little bit potentially, but then they can monitor more and then ideally be upskilled and um and then less wear and tear on their own human bodies.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: That benefits the process.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Lead us out then from that bag tool as to how and to how you see the ramp evolving in the future.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: So turnarounds, offloads of aircraft, pushbacks.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so maybe just to take the the bags in and out of the the airport.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, today they're driven traditionally with uh a baggage tractor and carts.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's there's been very, you know, electric vehicles are there, there's guidance for for moving them around.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely been some improvements in software that makes them, you know, it makes the human decisions better than just a pen and paper.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: All of that is great.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next step then is is some sort of autonomy.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we you see it on the road with Waymo cars and and you know self-driving uh uh Teslas.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think the airport truly is ripe for that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, lots of discussion that people have about the price of airplanes and how expensive they are.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can't disagree with that, but I would I would just bring up two points that um that you know when when error when there's today there's accidents, people hit planes today, unfortunately.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh human error when they whenever a risk management assessment is done or a post-event, you know, a large term of the time those are human error.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's very rarely the machine is is broken down.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think you know people should be uh more confident in a machine driving as opposed to human.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And secondly, I would say is airports have this unique ability to be the master of their own destiny because they then control what type of vehicles are driving out there, using this potentially autonomous in the future, how they communicate or do they communicate with each other, um, different from on the road where you know there's there's rules and regulations that are being drawn up, but but you've got you've got traffic that moves anywhere, you've got kids, dogs, squirrels running across the street, you know, all of that, which the airports tend they don't have.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you've got a controlled environment.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I really believe that airports, as much as you know, airports justifiably so are risk adverse to to making sure that everything is tight.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you look at airplanes, you know, airplanes used to have uh two, three, four people or four people in the cockpit.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now they're down to two.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of dependency on uh on computers and uh and autonomy of flying aircraft, why not do the same on the ground?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So and and and the reason for doing that is again, you get the consistency of flow.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you could I'd really love to see more cross-utilization of equipment.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that you know, most airports have uh airlines, ground handlers, both, and they all have a duplication of equipment.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that that creates some inefficiencies.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can there be more efficiencies with these autonomous vehicles going around from a sustainability perspective?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, electric is definitely you know the way of I say the majority of the world.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and that sort of drives to to you know, having to be able to recharge these vehicles and then when they're all autonomously working together in one system, then how can you then predict when's the best time to charge, the opportunity charge, and all that all that good information?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the autonomy of a ramp, not just from a baggage perspective, but all the rest of equipment, just makes sense because you can orchestrate it all together.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a pooled autonomous uh GSE fleet, the the talks as well, that that equipment um is semi-intelligent and it's shared amongst the ground handlers, the airlines, and the the airport to service the fleets.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh in my opinion, and again, I can't speak for everyone, so everyone's slightly different, but in my opinion, you know, as a former airport uh operator, um you know, the the airport doesn't want to control everything, that's for sure, right?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: They want to the it's their piece of property normally that they they manage and they operate.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do they want to control all aspects of it?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um should they should they be?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen a lot of um success in common use.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in in Canada, in the Canadian airport system, lots of common use.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now you tend to see more common use at check-in, but the that that that concept of common use spread across the rest of the airport makes a lot of sense, um, in my opinion.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, you know, the common use equipment doesn't mean the airport has to, you know, own, operate, manage it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: It can still be by you know separate companies or licensed to operate.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: That there's just lots of different models for that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I still think that common use mindset spread across an airport, to me, as an efficiency um, you know, someone who's driven by that, I see that as the most efficient way to do things.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a lot of change.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and change takes time.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and is it something that that will happen overnight?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I think as more uh technology and equipment that is able to do that is available, then you're going to see a shift in people's thinking, and it'll take time to say, maybe we could do that.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we can start in phases, start small, medium, and not go.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know another piece of experience I would say, you know, sometimes uh it's nice to be able to see, you know, to be looking ahead and saying, okay, we need to get here.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if you try to get to the end point right away, that that can stall and that can prove to be almost too difficult.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you've got to also start off in a phased operation in order to get buy-in and bring people along.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, small steps to to drive that innovation.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, definitely.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So Darren, you you mentioned there, you were director of baggage services at uh Grand Greater Toronto Airports Authority for eight years.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: What what was the most difficult challenge you had to overcome while you were there?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or a day.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Was there a day where there's a particularly big problem that you had to fix?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Move on to days, Max.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's hard to pinpoint one.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Any anyone's anyone in the baggage world has you know, baggage has this day, that's for sure.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what uh that's what we have, you know, contingency plans and everything for.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I won't talk about those, but I will talk about, you know, I wouldn't say I always tell the story to people and I'll share with you quickly is that you know, I spent uh over 30 years at Toronto Pearson and and uh right out of university and as a business student and went into operations, air traffic control, and terminals and did a whole bunch of things.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then when there was some issues with baggage, I was I was asked by my COO to go work there.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And at first, and I'll be honest, I wasn't thrilled.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, baggage, that's you know, I remember seeing the maps and our terminal offices, and they were a bunch of spaghetti that lived underneath the terminal.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I did that's I would listen to the experts because it it was just I didn't really understand uh all that that was involved.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I I went there and worked on a project and worked with the people from maintenance engineering, operations, IT, um, I really, really, you know, love the fact that that it was something that that people didn't know a lot about.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that because it allowed uh uh me and and ultimately my team to do things that were that were that could make it better, and you didn't have to consult the passenger, you didn't have to direct the passenger.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can do things, direct bags, you know, move them, sort them, hold them, all sorts of things without having to um you know to ask them.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and and that's sort of you've got to you control your own destiny a bit.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say the most challenging thing though at the beginning was getting uh and I love analogies, uh, and you know, because I'm up north right now, it's it's getting everyone in the canoe and paddling the same direction.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um because you know that that's difficult in an airport, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's lots of, as I mentioned, the the departments, you know, ops, maintenance, IT.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's there's definitely a lot of uh conflicting priorities, and everyone wants.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: do the right thing and it was it was really lining the people up to uh to align to a common goal and it sounds it sounds easy to say and harder to do and what we did in Toronto was we actually did some human centered design and we actually did some very practical um uh proof of concepts like really practical really quick scrappy as they called them at the time and and what that taught us was hey when we work together look at the cool things we do and and that was that was fun that was enjoyable that made people happy that made them have a purpose and go home at night and think yeah we did something that was really really cool and then and then what that led us to do is like well hey maybe we should do this every day maybe we should you know sit together maybe we should have so I ended up developing an office where in the same room we had you know ops maintenance and IT and we all sat together and we had lunch together in the boardroom and we we just worked together on a daily basis.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And to me you know the most challenging was getting that going.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: But once it was going man it was it was fun and it was it was enjoyable.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that may seem funny to say but when you're you know when you're trying to do something as complicated as as move bags to a terminal when you when you're together on a daily basis and you're working together on a common goal to me that's where you know people enjoy coming to work you get great results right that the the performance gets better and that's where innovation happens because then you start to see that people are starting to talk about what if we did this okay well if we did that I need to do this and I can do that.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways that so my most challenging thing was bringing those groups together but once once we did it was just it was I'm not saying it was easy like baggage is hard.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Any any if I've never met anyone who runs a baggage system at a large airport or any airport I'll say large airport around the world who's says yeah this is an easy job it's it's it's not it's a it's a challenging job every day.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're working together with with um and I mentioned internally but also you know externally the airlines the ground handlers that's another big piece right having good great relationships with them it just makes it makes it that much uh easier to get things done and then when people are happy coming to work then you know again innovation happens and and uh you get a great result make a date with us in Singapore on the 18th and 19th of November for the debut of the all new Apex FTE Expo Move Over Iron Man and Makeway Wonder Woman this is a new super show that takes the Airline Passenger Experience Association's flagship Apex Global Expo to Asia and combines it with Future Travel Experience's long established regional Asian innovation platform.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Powerful collaboration creates the industry's most comprehensive platform for passenger experience and innovation connecting airline airport technology leaders from across Apex and beyond to showcase the ideas and solutions that are redefining the future of travel.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Our show theme this November is aviation's new golden era high revenue greater returns and AIROI you won't want to miss it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Find out how you can join us now at www dot future travelexperience.com forward slash FTE Asia or email me at max at future travelexperience dot com I'll see you there how different was the environment when you walked into Toronto Pearson uh airport back in nineteen ninety and the technology to what you see now yeah well yeah that's uh it was it's funny so some stuff is still exactly the same and other stuff has changed significantly um so I would say you know things that have stayed the same as an example bags loading airplanes block loading bags been some minor changes but it still happens the same way um what's changed significantly is the use of data um you know data has changed significantly um understanding what's coming uh uh thriving you know operating to plan using data um you know that that was I sort of experienced that throughout my career and I ended up my job before baggage I was working on um uh like an optimization rule for the my previous COO and and in that we you know I went through all the operations department and we really looked at at data and and how we could you know how are we how are we operating and how could we operate differently and so to take that nineties and this that was back in you know 2007 ish so now it's you know it's 10 10 years ago uh 20 years ago geez almost 20 years ago um is that that you know that that data part ended up saving the airport at least hundreds of millions of dollars and I think you know that that has made a lot of progress since the 90s is there more way to go of course um and I think uh from the data aspect and knowing what you've knowing the information that you have and putting it together and and and getting results that are not just made on gut checks that are made on on you know real data and then the what ifs what if we did this what if we added another truck to the DS and what if we you know uh did the check encounters differently there's all sorts of examples and in that then when you you know when you can really uh measure what you're doing and do it well and that takes time to me that's the biggest change is that then you then apply uh what it is that you need to to to make it better and maybe something doesn't need maybe there's there's a list of things that don't need much help it is you know it is a manual process for now and that is what it is but lots of examples where you can apply different technologies or information or more data to get better results.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So to me that's been the biggest change is using that to to focus on what's important and then to have solutions that to meet the the the problems you're trying to solve andor get more efficiency andor capacity.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you you were studying a business degree at the time so where does the link with aviation come in and how did you first get um connected with the aviation ministry?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: My brother my youngest brother I've got two brothers my youngest is a uh Air Canada pilot and I really um I don't blame it I I had a great career I I I all sell credit my father um and he traveled a lot and then so I would drive him to the airport back then obviously no Ubers and uh you know I would pick him up drive him there on Mondays and pick him up on Fridays all the time and my youngest brother did too as I went off to school.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah just being around the airport and then you know my dad because he traveled a lot he had a lot of points so then I was able to use you know back then to transfer points much easily much more easily so I traveled a bit and so I guess that's where I sort of got the bug at working at the airport.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up with a summer job there.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know family friends husband worked there and I worked there for the summer and then I just kept on uh staying there and and you know the thing about working for a an airport or even in this industry only um but for me as a as an airport it's like a city so I was able to move around every five years to different departments which kept kept me there kept me interested kept me you know growing and mentally uh challenged and that's what I liked about the airport and that's what you know I I think that starting there and finishing there I never look back and say you know well you know I I could have gone to a different I didn't plan on going to the airport right of school I wasn't even finished school I was actually in uh in uh third year ended up doing my degree a bit longer my wife my girlfriend at the time was a year younger and uh we behind me in school so I was taking basically taking courses then so yeah that's how I ended up there.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's still here now though and still loving it all these years on.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah it's it's it's great.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: You talked uh earlier at the start of the conversation around that consistency and and the value of you know making things consistent standardization.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: What role do you think that should play in the actual shape and size of the luggage we are carrying um just a conversation I was having recently with with Jamie over at Heathrow but we you know the the various different shapes and sizes of our bags creates a problem in itself right yeah I would love to have you know have a standard suitcase that is that is you know hard sided square you know it fixed fits nicely into a container there's so much that could be done if you told everybody here's here's the here's the box or the shape that you get to put your your goods in as you travel.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Might that happen maybe isn't it going to be time soon unfortunately not um and I and I think you know the other way it's a it's a global industry that's the other thing.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at you know the if you ever look at those maps where you see all the planes in the sky it's truly amazing like how many people are in the air at any one time.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be great to do that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Would you ever change the whole world to that point?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Potentially I'm trying to think of another example where we have everything in the same size and and that's hard to imagine like maybe Amazon with boxes as an example there's different sized boxes.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well the only one I think of is you we have ULDs on the cargo side of our business standardized but maybe it's a different uh a different challenge there.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: But that that's uh and I suppose containerization on ships but you're not talking about consumers are you in the in the same way we are here as everyone there's seven eight billion people on this planet and they all want to pick a different kind of suitcase don't they yeah yeah and and and so as much as that would be great and that would solve a lot of our problems I think that's always our challenge is that we we are providing a service to the world in baggage handling that that you know we don't um we may influence but it's not one airline serving the whole world one airport running all the airports around the world they're all slightly different and and we are that's that's probably a reality of the challenges that we have so whatever innovative solution we come up with has to unfortunately I guess in this instance uh be able to accommodate those those those fluctuations and that makes it a bit more like maybe boring I love Jamie right Jamie's Jamie's is this you know one of my favorite people to talk to in the industry um but if we all had a bunch of square boxes what would Jamie and I be thinking about it'd be oh it's just easy you could have his feet up relaxing on an afternoon and but yeah um you know idiosyncrasy and choice is is always going to be there what about looking at the the journey of us and our luggage to the airport in the airport you know we're in an era we've always been an era I guess but it will always be the way that we travel we're almost married to the luggage we take it up to the check-in desk we drop it off you know then we make our way through security but did is that always do you think that always has to be the way it happens and you know can you foresee a future where it's different where we're letting go of that luggage much earlier in the journey like I said from the beginning yes like I always try yes of course uh it could be um what I the and that's it's happening already you know you see work that Orlando's doing about you know cruise ships and and uh theme parks picking the bags all all those are great initiatives and then they they they have a bunch of benefits right both from customer experience but also on the bag assist you can then control your input right you're taking more more control over when you can process these bags and flattening some of your peaks and it's done for good reason um so so yeah is there a time where where you could have your bag processed from your house to your to your hotel or to wherever you're going to even have to go on the plane you're going on why not I've always said it would be nice if you could um say well you know ship my my stuff down to Florida and I'll give it to you on Monday and I'm gonna be there by Sunday I don't care when it gets there and come up with the cheapest way to get there.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know that there's different whether they put it on a truck maybe because I've got long time or they put it on a an aircraft that's then full or a cargo plane it doesn't matter you could have you know logistics could figure out what's the best way.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: All possible um when I talk about this you know at conferences like we're gonna be at next week with my friends most people that I talk to always say the same thing.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well I don't pack until the day before um I'm guilty of that too.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Might we change people's behavior we might um but I always think there's always you know there's always a segment of the population that it benefits more.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be painted with a brush the same people the same uh brush for all people so as an example when my kids were younger yeah if I had back then we were lugging around strollers and you know multiple suitcases and all the stuff that comes with you when you travel with kids then yeah if I was going down to Florida Disney it'd be great to to my wife would have made me prep all that stuff and we would have you know we would have done that it would have been very convenient right so so yeah I think there'll be an element of of that that that that comes in the future and it it it's beneficial.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess you know as we said about the size of the bags there's always going to have to be choice.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't want to have too many choices.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: However again with the industry there's always going to be because there's so many different airlines where they operate there's there's always going to have to be different options and we always have to have systems that are that can accommodate that and hopefully influence them right if we can influence them and there's different ways of doing that as well whether or not you're providing infrastructure to make that happen financial incentives there's all sorts of different ways that that you can encourage behavior um that ultimately could help the the the passenger as well as potentially help the airport.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and if I'm just thinking on my feet but if someone said to me right now pack your bag for the FT conference in Dublin next week you've got to do it tonight I'd probably think oh God I don't want to do it but if the uh the carrot of that was you go through the airport without it and it's there waiting when you get there to the hotel I think it'd be I think I'd take that choice just to be free and to liberate it to just walk around not have that hassle of checking it in.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: But like you say everyone is going to be different and there'll be different flavours and sizes to suit all people.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Darren what about advice for airport innovation teams who have to deal with legacy infrastructure which is a big thing in in um our world and airports sometimes they're built in the 50s sometimes earlier that they're dealing with um structures that when they were created the the kind of designers weren't thinking about the passage of the journey and the the technology that we have now so how do you work around that infrastructure yeah that that's a huge reality um you know if you look at the airports around the world um there's very few that were you know greenfield built in a nice new piece of land in the night last 10 years there's probably I don't know of big ones there's there's maybe two three I don't know I I can think of one or two on top of my head but so so yeah a lot of and and other airport uh every airport besides those was likely built in different eras um so you build a new terminal then you add on and then you know things get added on as you go regardless with security requirements and or andor just you know transfer process there's there's all sorts of different pieces that get added to a bag of systems so again to use the car analogy you're always adding new pieces to your to your you know 1985 uh Chevrolet Caprice that you have but but what we're seeing though is people that are providing this new technology can can help those right those are reality the the investments that are made and it's not just financial like those those systems cost a lot of money uh and to put new ones in are expensive like that's just a reality it's a lot of kit that needs to go in but the other thing is that even if you have you know the finances to do it um it's the time to do it airports never close there's no locks on the doors um they don't they don't have a summer shutdown like a factory where they can go in and clean and re-kit things and it's really very hard to to then you know replace some of this equipment so you need to to get every last ounce of juice out of it that you can and technology is helping with that right technology is helping them run better to monitor their performance better to see when they're starting that motors starting to heat up new motors new types of belting again I said computer vision before uh robotic loading all of these things that are being designed can be added onto those equipment you don't need to re-kit you don't need a whole new car in order to use this technology and that's where people are are are focusing their efforts to be honest because that's the people that need the help um and those are the people that that need to get you know the asset extended longer um and they needed to operate you know pasture pastures grow every year um and you know you use the example of of Heathrow that are busy all day airports that maybe aren't full today will get fuller they'll fill in the valleys and again that the more you fill in the valleys at any airport um the more you need to operate consistently so a lot of this new technology is helping to do that and that's a that's a big piece and yeah Brownfield that's that's the that's got to be over 90% have never actually done the calculation but that's the vast majority of the work that's uh that this we apply to Darren what is coming up with the FT's package innovation working group um so we're really trying to focus now on we've done a lot of talk about you know what what can we do we we've we've talked about you know autonomous vehicles robotic uh loading unloading um tracking tagging of bags those are been the three themes for a while and we spent you know a lot of time talking about you know lots of talk lots of progress it it's you know very encouraging now you know the real focus is uh how do we help bring that to scale and you know you see struggles with with startup companies because you know airports not a again many airports want proven products and they're you know very risk adverse for good reason so it's it's sort of hard to to give give a chance to that that startup company the this new technology and they want to see it work they want to see it work in other airports they may want to see it work in their own airport and that that can be sometimes uh uh well it's either getting access to the airport for some of this new technology and not all of it comes from big companies it can be you know we've got a person in our group who who developed a vehicle in their garage super impressive um you know to other companies that are they came out of larger companies so there's that variation and so how do how do how do we get you know people access to to having this stuff tried in the airport how how do they fund it how do they you know if if if they're looking to to develop some significant product that say requires a lot of money how do they get the money without having you know a confirmed order say from a larger airport or any airport so that's a lot of the talk is how do we bring all this stuff to to scale and again we're not a working group that is going to you know this going to you know lobby a a carvoment or lobby a a group like I had as an example however we are a bunch of people that are talking about well hey I I was working with a startup company on this or I was to put some innovation in here and this is what I did.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh okay well I did this I can share some of my results with you oh what did you get okay that's interesting and to me that's that's sort of the the that's how we're going to help influence that by having people that are like minded putting this innovation in that are asking for the innovation that are believers and then sharing information of how they're doing it.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And again I'm not talking about sharing commercial information where they're you know they're they're not colluding to say how we can get things in but what they're working on is is ex sharing their experiences.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really amazing how you've got even airports that are maybe competitors uh that are close together who are you know they're they're gonna they're gonna share some of their learnings because in the end it's gonna help them both out.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say that's where our focus is is how do we how do we improve those three aspects and become and have it become more um more more uh I wouldn't say popular but it's how does it pick up speed and really get get used and then once it's used then we're gonna see another pickup so now then we've got you know more robotics and we've got autonomous vehicles we've got tracking and tagging and and computer vision now now what what does that open up?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's the next step.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: So think of the idea which we've been doing the last few years get the idea in place it's happening get it to expand and then all those technologies they're working together how does it even get what Archer can so that's that'd be my my you know thought for the group but I'll say one more thing too is that you know I may lead the group but it's not just me.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've got other you know captains from across the industry and airlines and airports that are that help guide it.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's also all the members like that it's really they take it where they where they want it to go.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: I just help steer it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important because, you know, this is everyone has different ideas and and the group um functions very well because it's it's where they want to go.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so far we had great success in the guidance that you know our captains and myself have provided, but also the members, yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking forward to following the journey and working with you uh on that, Darren at FTE.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: My final question, it's a big one.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we've got roughly, forgive my numbers here, but say roughly around 5 billion bags, 5 billion passengers uh in the system today, but that number's gonna grow, projected to grow to closer to sort of 15, 20 billion by 2040.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna do it?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna keep up with that huge growth in um throughput and volume?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we'll just park, just give me a quick, yeah, before I answer the how we're gonna do it, I would say what I want to get to the point is is I want to be able to hear, to never hear the the the statement when I talk to somebody and I introduce myself for the first time, and I said, Oh, I you know, I I work in baggage, I had the baggage innovation working group.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, I I never check a bag because I'm afraid of losing a bag.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I want that that vernacular, that that that saying to to never be, I never want to hear those words again.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is to me, that that is the that's where that's where we need to get to.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do we get there is is we need to have um uh the trust in in passengers, like an Amazon package, like I said, as I say, where I order something, I don't have to track it, I just know it's gonna show up.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it doesn't.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: I Amazon's not perfect as an example, but they're really quite good.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just use them as an example.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: We we just we order goods online and it gets delivered to our door and we just assume it's gonna happen.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Baggage, still we still have a lot of work to do to gain consumer confidence in that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do we do that?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then we need we need the consistency.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you get consistency?
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is by uh, in my opinion, using using data and using new uh innovative tools that you're you're consistently delivering X number of bags a minute, you're loading Y bags a minute a minute, you're you're able to to um uh in your system be able to have bags come to the bag claim in so many minutes every time, 95% of the time.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of these these drastic fluctuations in performance where we have some really good days, we have some okay days.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's a bad day, and that that that that happens, and so that's what we need to, in my opinion, that's where in order to handle more people, we need to do we need to do it differently, sure.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's always you know potentially a part of it, as you mentioned.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, could you take some bags at the system and do so operating differently, sure, that's another way, but um uh having systems today that that operate need to be more consistent and not have those big fluctuations.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll do that with innovation, technology, data sharing, and uh and working together.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: And cooperation, yeah, uh crucially the last one.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Darren, it's been absolutely brilliant uh speaking to you and hearing your knowledge and learning lots um on the conversation this afternoon.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna uh leave you to crack on with the wakeboarding on that beautiful lake uh that you showed me earlier.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Max.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh I was happy to talk about baggage and uh and uh the future is great.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and looking forward to to shaping it and driving it under your leadership of the um baggage innovation working group.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Darren, thank you so much.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Max.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.