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Skepticism and the Paranormal: What does “healthy skepticism" look like and why is it important? · Paranormal Lens - A Crossroads Of Curiosities, LLC Production

• 0:00
  I am skeptic. That's how we're going to start
• 0:03
  this? I'm skeptic. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.
• 0:08
  She is skeptic. We're not saying septic. We're
• 0:18
  saying skeptic with a K. Or skeptic with a what?
• 0:25
  My microphone was facing away from me and like
• 0:28
  the other side of the table. Oh. Well, that does
• 0:32
  not help anything. So I grabbed it. Good job.
• 0:36
  And that's why I said shit. Okay. Starting out
• 0:40
  strong. I thought we would start this episode
• 0:45
  on a high note. Angela actually was the one that
• 0:49
  was skeptical earlier before starting. So then
• 0:53
  that's what prompted me to say, oh, you're skeptical?
• 0:56
  And then Brandon said, let's just talk about
• 1:00
  being skeptical. And then I said, we've said
• 1:03
  the word skeptical a lot in the past 20 seconds.
• 1:07
  What if we just cut to the standard intro we
• 1:10
  always do for this podcast, and then we'll come
• 1:11
  back and actually talk about being a skeptic?
• 1:18
  Skeptical. Yeah, okay. Or a skeptic. I botched
• 1:23
  it. It's fine. Move on. Welcome to our podcast
• 1:25
  where we take deep dives looking at various topics
• 1:28
  through a paranormal lens. Brianna, can you help
• 1:34
  us out here? What is skepticism and why is it
• 1:40
  important for paranormal investigators to go
• 1:43
  into investigations being skeptical as opposed
• 1:47
  to being a blind believer? What were you going
• 1:49
  to say, Angela? One second. Are you guys able
• 1:51
  to turn the volume up? Huh? It's really quiet
• 1:55
  on my end. I'm skeptical. I don't know. Do you
• 1:58
  have to do something with your microphone? No.
• 2:03
  No? What the heck? Maybe it's my computer. It's
• 2:06
  probably your computer. Probably. Sorry. I'm
• 2:09
  just going to narrate for the listeners. Sorry,
• 2:12
  Brie. I asked you a question. I'm about to just
• 2:14
  start talking. We'll get back to your answer.
• 2:18
  This is kind of like a... good microcosm for
• 2:20
  how paranormal investigations should go you go
• 2:24
  in with the hypothesis is this you is this my
• 2:28
  computer for example and then you start testing
• 2:32
  different theories out and since you go in skeptical
• 2:35
  we were just skeptical that it was our and our
• 2:39
  microphones being the issue We were able to test
• 2:42
  other theories and expand our horizons without
• 2:45
  going in with a preconceived notion of we were
• 2:48
  the issue. And then we come ultimately, hopefully
• 2:52
  Angela's going to come to a conclusion and no
• 2:55
  one's going to end in a place of skepticism,
• 2:58
  but going in with that place of skepticism and
• 3:02
  being, you know, having critical thinking and
• 3:06
  dare I say scientific method of, you know, form
• 3:11
  hypotheses and test hypotheses you come to better
• 3:15
  conclusions and that's what we're doing now that
• 3:20
  was a very very in -depth analysis from just
• 3:26
  a microphone mishap just have we solved the microphone
• 3:30
  mishap because this might cause me to start rambling
• 3:34
  for endless amount of minutes are we good now
• 3:37
  angela It's about the same, but I can still hear
• 3:40
  you guys. Okay, we can always cut to a stand
• 3:44
  -by screen while we figure this out. Do you want
• 3:48
  us to do that? I don't care. We can do that.
• 3:52
  Okay. Please stand by. Okay, we're back. So,
• 3:58
  thank you for standing by. Brianna, I defer to
• 4:02
  you. What is skepticism? Why is it good in paranormal
• 4:06
  investigating? That is a phenomenal question,
• 4:09
  Ben. So skepticism is coming into, well, in the
• 4:15
  paranormal world, coming into an investigation
• 4:18
  not immediately assuming everything is paranormal
• 4:22
  or is a ghost. And that's good to have when investigating
• 4:30
  or in the paranormal field because, well... nine
• 4:35
  times out of ten it is not going to be something
• 4:39
  paranormal so having a healthy healthy skepticism
• 4:45
  i call it is always important when going into
• 4:49
  an investigation into anything when it comes
• 4:53
  to the paranormal because it is a field of science
• 4:59
  and most of things can be explained by science
• 5:05
  in some way or natural phenomenon so one of the
• 5:10
  common things we've talked about on previous
• 5:12
  episodes is like spikes on emf meters oh yeah
• 5:16
  which emf is electromagnetic fields it takes
• 5:21
  those readings electromagnetic fields are naturally
• 5:25
  occurring one in the environment and two if you're
• 5:29
  in a place where you have like electricity or
• 5:34
  high electric output you're going to have fluctuations
• 5:38
  so going into an investigation where you are
• 5:42
  using an emf meter it's important to stop see
• 5:48
  what could be causing a fluctuation is it continuing
• 5:52
  or is it just a one -time occurrence so like
• 5:57
  i said there's but there's a line between healthy
• 6:00
  skepticism and just being a skeptic Oh, yeah.
• 6:03
  And taking it back to the EMF, I like how you
• 6:06
  said one and two, because most of the quote unquote
• 6:10
  anomalous readings people capture are between
• 6:13
  one and two milligrams, which is the unit of
• 6:17
  measurement that many of these EMF meters measure
• 6:20
  in terms of the energy they're documenting. And
• 6:25
  an example I'd love to throw out is when you're
• 6:29
  in a dark, creepy attic. and you document a one
• 6:32
  or two milligoths reading, you might freak out
• 6:35
  because these devices that are designed for gullible
• 6:39
  ghost hunters to pay exuberance amounts for the
• 6:42
  same thing they can get at Home Depot for $10,
• 6:45
  just the only added benefit is a one or two milligoths
• 6:48
  reading will trigger this creepy beeping noise
• 6:51
  and flashing lights. We're recording this over
• 6:54
  Zoom. A computer monitor is going to emit...
• 7:01
  around four milligrams of emf to our faces yeah
• 7:07
  all day you know i work remote all day every
• 7:11
  day i'm i'm exposed to this you know energy that's
• 7:15
  not anomalous and it's also people say oh that
• 7:20
  that reading can harness or create activity you
• 7:25
  know you can create make you go kind of paranoid
• 7:27
  and hallucinate at a high level Yeah, but that's
• 7:32
  like talking hundreds. Exactly. So people, my
• 7:37
  whole point is like, you can go and pretend to
• 7:40
  be skeptical by saying that one or two milligrams.
• 7:43
  Oh, I'm using an EMF meter to debunk activity.
• 7:46
  Oh, it's going one or two milligrams. That's
• 7:49
  causing hallucinations. That's not true either.
• 7:51
  That's just as pseudoscientific as saying that
• 7:54
  one or two milligrams is creating it or is evidence
• 7:58
  of a ghost. Yeah. actually knowing what you're
• 8:02
  talking about is probably the probably the first
• 8:05
  step yes i think i think that's we can all agree
• 8:11
  to that yeah but yeah healthy skepticism going
• 8:14
  back to how you kind of ended that health what
• 8:17
  do you agree that healthy skepticism is going
• 8:20
  in skeptical I think it's always good to go into
• 8:25
  a location skeptical because everyone always
• 8:28
  hypes up locations, hypes up their experiences.
• 8:32
  You always hear the lore or the stories about
• 8:37
  the places. So sometimes your brain already has
• 8:40
  a preset of what's going to happen while you're
• 8:43
  there. And that's not always the best way to
• 8:47
  enter it. investigation or a haunted location
• 8:51
  or or some sort of paranormal situation because
• 8:55
  you're going to go into that situation with your
• 8:58
  levels already heightened already jacked up already
• 9:01
  full of adrenaline and any little thing that's
• 9:04
  going to happen is going to seem 10 times more
• 9:08
  than what it actually is which can be fun but
• 9:13
  did that thing that happened mean like was it
• 9:17
  actually paranormal Well, not only that, it's
• 9:21
  if you're going into a location with expectations
• 9:26
  already, you're going to be missing out on other
• 9:31
  things because you're so focused on those things
• 9:35
  that people tell you about. Yeah. So a part of
• 9:39
  healthy skepticism is trying to eliminate bias.
• 9:43
  Yes, that's a great, great way to put it. eliminating
• 9:48
  bias but also there's to an extent where you
• 9:51
  can like don't want to be like oh no that wasn't
• 9:57
  anything like there's there's a the person who's
• 10:01
  like you got two ends of the scale you got someone
• 10:03
  who's like oh my gosh that little creak in the
• 10:06
  floorboard was a ghost when it's probably just
• 10:09
  the house settling or you have someone who's
• 10:11
  like something moved on its own or they saw something,
• 10:16
  but no, that wasn't paranormal. It can be easily
• 10:20
  explained, but there's no way to explain it.
• 10:23
  So there's a fine line, like right in the middle
• 10:27
  somewhere. Well, I think, so would you agree
• 10:30
  or disagree that if you go in, assuming you're
• 10:35
  going to find a ghost and believing that every,
• 10:38
  you know, we've talked about orbs before as well,
• 10:40
  that believing every pixel, every dust particle.
• 10:44
  is the ghost right and believing every spike
• 10:48
  on an emf meter is a ghost believing every creek
• 10:51
  in the floorboard is a ghost going in believing
• 10:53
  everything is a ghost are you more likely to
• 10:56
  end the night believing everything is a ghost
• 10:58
  or coming to a critical you know actual grounded
• 11:03
  conclusion or if you go in being skeptical are
• 11:07
  you more likely to rule out the things that aren't
• 11:09
  a ghost and come away believing that something
• 11:13
  could be anomalous or paranormal. I think it
• 11:17
  holds more value to go in being skeptical and
• 11:22
  have your mind changed. Yes. Are you more likely
• 11:26
  to have your mind changed going in without bias
• 11:30
  and having skepticism or going in already coming
• 11:34
  to a conclusion? The latter. Wait, the latter
• 11:41
  is you're going in already with a conclusion.
• 11:44
  I mean, you know what I mean. No, I don't. Now
• 11:48
  I'm confused. Hang on. My whole point was people
• 11:51
  go in and they go in with a conclusion and it's
• 11:57
  just a facade of skepticism. Yeah. No, I confused
• 12:01
  myself. Stand by, everyone. Stand by. Let's go
• 12:05
  back to that screen. Please stand. Bye. Okay,
• 12:10
  we're back. We just sat down with Brianna, and
• 12:13
  she realizes that it was a simple... What? It
• 12:17
  was a simple... I just don't know what the ladder
• 12:19
  means. It's fine. No, no, it was... You climbed
• 12:22
  a ladder, but you meant to say the former. Yes.
• 12:26
  How dare you climb the ladder, Bri? I know. I'm
• 12:31
  just trying to get on the same level as you guys.
• 12:35
  There's no... Listen, I know we're a business
• 12:38
  now, but there's no corporate ladder. Don't you
• 12:39
  worry. No, you forgot. There is some sort of
• 12:43
  a corporate because Bree is HR. I'm not HR. We
• 12:49
  were talking before we started recording tonight.
• 12:52
  You know, we were just on the Zoom chit -chatting
• 12:54
  and we all determined that everyone ever on Earth
• 12:57
  agrees that Brianna would be the HR manager of...
• 13:01
  I strongly disagree. I strongly disagree. Any
• 13:06
  business? Any. That's a very big commitment.
• 13:11
  What's a business you would definitely not be
• 13:13
  HR manager of? Literally anything. That's going
• 13:18
  in with a preconceived notion. Going skeptical.
• 13:21
  Right? Without bias. Okay. I could be an HR manager
• 13:28
  for anything. And for nothing, like, except for
• 13:33
  maybe a paranormal team. Exactly. There you go.
• 13:38
  Something. Yeah. If the listeners even know what
• 13:42
  the hell we're talking about, that might be a
• 13:43
  good anecdote. You really got to get to know
• 13:47
  Bree to understand why she would be the HR. No,
• 13:52
  you really don't. Because I wouldn't be. This
• 13:58
  is just good advice. Get to know your HR managers
• 14:00
  at work, you guys. They might have paranormal
• 14:05
  podcasts on the side that you just don't know
• 14:07
  about. This does not mean I'm an HR manager in
• 14:12
  real life. I am not. You might be. I am not.
• 14:16
  You might be. Secret life. Okay, everyone listening
• 14:21
  should be highly skeptical of all claims we are
• 14:23
  making regarding Brianna's professional work
• 14:26
  life. Go in without bias and test all hypotheses.
• 14:33
  I mean, I wear scrubs literally in the zooms
• 14:36
  every single time. So it kind of shrinks down
• 14:40
  the fields in which I work in. So there you go.
• 14:44
  That's like scientific method. Yep. So anyways,
• 14:52
  anyways, back to healthy skepticism. And healthcare?
• 15:01
  Where are you getting at? What are you getting
• 15:04
  at right now? You're wearing scrubs, so I'm thinking
• 15:07
  healthcare. Can we move past? Let's just move.
• 15:16
  We're going to like... How did I hurt you? No,
• 15:21
  I was holding my dog's bone for her to chew on
• 15:24
  it, and she bit me instead of the bone. Here's
• 15:29
  the thing about our podcast. 95 % of the people
• 15:32
  who listen, there's a few people that watch.
• 15:34
  Only the few people that watch knew that your
• 15:37
  dog bit you. Everyone listening is like, why
• 15:40
  are you saying that? You guys didn't know that
• 15:42
  she bit me either. You can't see her. Well, I
• 15:44
  saw you react to something. Oh, okay. Again,
• 15:47
  I'm going in skeptical, level -headed. Without
• 15:51
  bias. Oh my goodness. Being ghost hunters, we
• 15:56
  go in without preconceived notions. Should you
• 16:02
  put that on a button? I might. Because being
• 16:05
  ghost hunters, we make buttons for paracons.
• 16:10
  Okay, so we need to tell you that we are thinking
• 16:15
  about putting comments that are just weird or
• 16:18
  hate comments or whatever. whatever on buttons
• 16:21
  and then giving them out at events and stuff.
• 16:28
  Because why not? They're funny. We have some
• 16:31
  really funny ones. Anything left over will go
• 16:34
  on beyondtheafterlife .com which I know it's
• 16:37
  not... You can't access that site yet. I kind
• 16:40
  of dropped the ball on that. I promised it would
• 16:42
  be out last week, but we own the domain now,
• 16:45
  and at some point we'll turn beyondtheafterlife
• 16:48
  .com into just like a meme shitposting, just
• 16:52
  kind of fun merch website. Hell yeah. Heck yeah.
• 16:57
  It's actually owned and operated by... Please
• 17:01
  stand by. Going back to skepticism. you asked
• 17:06
  earlier if this was a good topic and you're like
• 17:09
  i'm a little skeptical and i was like don't be
• 17:11
  skeptical this is a great a great topic yeah
• 17:15
  i mean it isn't like one of those ones you can
• 17:18
  talk about forever because you can only nail
• 17:20
  your nail the head i don't know what i'm saying
• 17:23
  so much my brain just wait wait wait i said nail
• 17:27
  the hammer but you but it should be hammer the
• 17:30
  nail My brain just completely stroked out there
• 17:35
  for a second. I had no idea what I was saying.
• 17:37
  There is some idiomatic phrase about nailing
• 17:43
  a hammer. Wait, no. Hammering a nail. I keep
• 17:49
  messing it up now. Hitting a nail on its head.
• 17:52
  Hitting a nail on its head. I still don't think
• 17:56
  that's the saying. Nailed it. I don't even remember
• 18:03
  what I was going to say. Oh, gosh, we need to
• 18:06
  get back on track. It's an important topic. You
• 18:09
  know why? Yes. Because on this podcast. And as
• 18:14
  most investigate, like I've gone in the soapbox
• 18:16
  before about how one of the biggest problems
• 18:18
  in the paranormal right now is like no one's
• 18:20
  like innovating, thinking outside the box, experimenting
• 18:23
  and all that. At the core of innovation, experimentation
• 18:27
  is. Thinking outside the box, asking big questions,
• 18:32
  you know, things that might sound a little crazy
• 18:35
  until you go out and you actually test them,
• 18:37
  right? Look at the episode we did last week.
• 18:41
  What happens when demons go viral? Is hashtag
• 18:45
  Zozo creating egregores? what happens if adults
• 18:49
  do bloody mary can you scar children for the
• 18:52
  rest of their lives like these are questions
• 18:55
  if you go in as a conspiracy theorist nut house
• 18:58
  that you know that just believes everything is
• 19:00
  a ghost and everything is a conspiracy and you
• 19:02
  say these things you people shrug it off but
• 19:06
  if you go in asking these big questions skeptically
• 19:09
  and in from this you know where you can have
• 19:11
  these hour -long conversations every week about
• 19:14
  big topics coming at it grounded in a place of
• 19:19
  just like i wonder if and forming hypotheses
• 19:22
  that's what skepticism should be healthy skepticism
• 19:25
  is going in without a conclusion asking big questions
• 19:29
  experimenting hypothesizing and figuring it out
• 19:33
  you can't ask you can't like imagine if someone
• 19:37
  that just like believes every everything is a
• 19:39
  ghost and everything is a conspiracy and can't
• 19:43
  have their mind changed ask the same questions
• 19:45
  we're asking it would turn that's what turns
• 19:48
  the paranormal into like a laughingstock yeah
• 19:50
  i think that's a good way to put it um the the
• 20:01
  paranormal field is full of wonder and unfortunately
• 20:05
  people don't ask those big questions that make
• 20:10
  you wonder more and want to find out more um
• 20:14
  and i wonder why that is because okay so it's
• 20:17
  just because you come across so many people who
• 20:20
  are just like think of it as black and white
• 20:22
  and it's like oh it'd be impossible for this
• 20:24
  to be the case would be you know what i mean
• 20:27
  so yeah black and white thinking also the sensationalizing
• 20:34
  of it right i think if you go in Thinking you're
• 20:40
  going to make a viral video, you need to produce
• 20:43
  one. When in reality, 95 % of the time, nothing
• 20:49
  happens that is worth putting in a viral YouTube
• 20:55
  video. You see the episodes of the TV shows.
• 20:59
  They film hundreds of episodes to air six in
• 21:02
  a year. But people like Sam and Colby have to
• 21:06
  put out one a week. and it's the same amount
• 21:10
  of activity every week not saying anyone's faking
• 21:13
  anything but like there is a disconnect there
• 21:16
  that's fair yeah you i'm not saying there's anyone
• 21:20
  faking anything but if if you don't want to fake
• 21:23
  anything you can at least go in believing everything
• 21:27
  is a ghost guy i believe that most of the paranormal
• 21:31
  shows out there that people say are quote -unquote
• 21:32
  fake aren't actually fake they're not like faking
• 21:36
  content they're just misinterpreting things yeah
• 21:38
  misinterpreting and make it making it more was
• 21:42
  i don't know the word obnoxious viewer friendly
• 21:45
  yeah yeah more entertainment yeah i do believe
• 21:49
  that for the shows i think some of the evidence
• 21:54
  that they do show us is actual legit things i
• 21:59
  think but there could be things behind them to
• 22:02
  explain a more reasonable like reason for some
• 22:08
  of this evidence that they just blow it away,
• 22:14
  you know what I mean? Yeah. I cannot think of
• 22:17
  any words today. No, you're good. I mean, like,
• 22:22
  it's true. I mean, most of the shows these days
• 22:26
  focus on, like, orbs, and things are so easy
• 22:29
  to disprove, but also so easy to blow out of
• 22:31
  proportion and spend five minutes explaining
• 22:34
  why. This is the only camera that dust flew by.
• 22:38
  Therefore, it can't be, you know, so. And then
• 22:42
  you filter in all these and factor in all these
• 22:45
  explanations and hype everything up with hyperbole
• 22:48
  about why it's a ghost. And then the viewer instinctively
• 22:52
  just assumes, wow, that place was so active.
• 22:55
  When in reality, it was just misinterpreted activity.
• 23:00
  You don't need to, people don't need to fake
• 23:02
  things anymore. to what it's not only that people
• 23:07
  are going in thinking that all those places are
• 23:09
  really active they're going in thinking like
• 23:12
  oh or every single orb they see that's a ghost
• 23:18
  because they're getting like misinformed misinformed
• 23:21
  by these popular tv shows and like channels or
• 23:27
  whatever you know well not even that if you believe
• 23:30
  that orbs are ghosts And you're consciously or
• 23:35
  unconsciously misguiding your viewers and mistaking
• 23:40
  this for real paranormal activity. I don't even
• 23:42
  think the mindset is, wow, this space is so active.
• 23:45
  I think the mindset these days is, wow, this
• 23:48
  will be great for YouTube. Yeah. You know, we
• 23:52
  got five orbs tonight. Hell yeah, we got a video
• 23:55
  out of this. So where does skepticism have a
• 24:00
  place in that when the end result, you're going
• 24:03
  in, because so many people go in and they pay
• 24:08
  for a location, they're essentially paying, that's
• 24:11
  their budget for their YouTube video. I was going
• 24:14
  to say, because the bigger YouTubers or bigger
• 24:17
  channels, popular people in the ghost hunting
• 24:19
  community, they're paying this amount of money.
• 24:25
  To have a whole place to themselves for the night.
• 24:28
  Or even longer. Who knows how long they film
• 24:31
  for. If they don't get anything. That means.
• 24:35
  They're not getting their money. You know. Yeah
• 24:38
  they're renting. They're filmmakers. They're
• 24:41
  renting a film location. To shoot at. Yeah and
• 24:45
  I think this kind of ties back to like. Our first
• 24:49
  episode. Where we talked about the paranormal
• 24:51
  film. Or paranormal industry. in media dying
• 24:56
  because these broadcasting companies and stuff
• 25:01
  aren't wanting to pick up paranormal shows anymore.
• 25:04
  So people aren't getting that influx of expenditures
• 25:10
  being paid to be able to do these locations.
• 25:14
  So they're having to pay out of pocket for them.
• 25:17
  Exactly. And the only way you can do that is
• 25:20
  if you have people who are like subscribing to
• 25:24
  you and watching your content and doing all those
• 25:26
  things and if you don't aren't getting activity
• 25:30
  or having things happen when you're on investigations
• 25:34
  you aren't going to get that viewer content that's
• 25:38
  going to make you the money to be able to do
• 25:39
  investigations yeah and because it it's a catch
• 25:42
  -22 exactly it's like either you make content
• 25:47
  that people are going to like and it's going
• 25:50
  to be clickbaity and react to everything but
• 25:55
  you're gonna get viewers so you can keep doing
• 25:59
  the thing that you like or you don't do it and
• 26:03
  you don't get viewers and you can't do those
• 26:06
  things so and like another thing too it's it's
• 26:12
  like when those people going in and they need
• 26:17
  active things so they're just picking up every
• 26:19
  single little sound that could have had an explanation
• 26:22
  and seeing it's a ghost a lot of it is also like
• 26:26
  their personality and how they show it too because
• 26:30
  that's a big reason for why these popular paranormal
• 26:35
  investigators are so well known is because people
• 26:39
  like how they are who they are as people and
• 26:43
  the energy they bring to it too so you know you
• 26:48
  gotta do what they gotta do it's unfortunate
• 26:50
  because like i i do believe that the energy you
• 26:53
  bring to the location can in turn you know have
• 26:56
  the energy present like react in certain ways
• 26:58
  so yeah yeah you know intent and energy so it's
• 27:01
  like you don't need to if you have a strong energy
• 27:05
  and a strong presence like harness that into
• 27:07
  your investigating as opposed to you know i feel
• 27:10
  like yeah i feel like on the flip side Back in
• 27:14
  the day when ghost hunting shows started to become
• 27:17
  bigger, more popular, when ghost hunters came
• 27:20
  out, like, their first whole, I think, first
• 27:25
  season, couple seasons, had to do with the two
• 27:28
  main guys, Jason and Grant, were literally plumbers
• 27:32
  in their day jobs, so they went into these haunted
• 27:36
  locations, and being plumbers tried to figure
• 27:39
  out why they might be, like... hearing the floor
• 27:43
  is creaker and it's like, oh, well, there's something
• 27:46
  wrong with this pipe in your house. We'll just
• 27:48
  fix this while we're here or something. This
• 27:51
  needs to be inspected further or whatever. Imagine
• 27:55
  getting free services. Free plumbing services
• 28:02
  instead of ghosts. Imagine having a ghost hunting
• 28:07
  show being sponsored by Roto -Rooter. i feel
• 28:15
  like because of that like how they did those
• 28:19
  that first season or so with them doing the whole
• 28:23
  um being skeptics and looking at things as a
• 28:28
  handyman what might be causing these things in
• 28:31
  these houses to make people think there's ghosts
• 28:34
  is what was the big draw to it at the time but
• 28:38
  nowadays people are wanting that click baby stuff
• 28:40
  they're wanting that jump scare but are people
• 28:44
  really wanting that clip baiting stuff because
• 28:46
  people always make fun of it now people always
• 28:48
  make fun of it but they click on it don't they
• 28:50
  they want to watch it they want to see it they
• 28:53
  want to see what happened because here's the
• 28:55
  thing even in the first couple of seasons when
• 28:58
  They were skeptical. Things did happen. Yeah,
• 29:02
  they still had things happen. And they still
• 29:05
  were funded by a TV network that had unions and
• 29:12
  all these people behind them. It wasn't just
• 29:15
  the three people on screen. Yeah, no, it wasn't.
• 29:17
  They had a whole crew. They had a budget. And
• 29:21
  they still... Well, Ghost Hunters' first season
• 29:24
  was like 10 episodes. They filmed probably...
• 29:27
  a few dozen investigations to get to 10 episodes
• 29:31
  they didn't air the ones where nothing happened
• 29:34
  you know what i'm saying so they still even at
• 29:39
  the time had that luxury and people watching
• 29:41
  still knew they were being skeptical but being
• 29:44
  more genuine about it too genuine but still there's
• 29:47
  when you arrange when you pick and choose which
• 29:49
  episodes to air and you arrange them in an order
• 29:52
  that rewards the viewer okay episode one is gonna
• 29:55
  be so crazy episode two is gonna be maybe a little
• 29:58
  less crazy two and three nothing will happen
• 30:01
  and then it will ramp up to this great finale
• 30:03
  where yeah it goes bonkers they didn't debunk
• 30:06
  anything it's the most haunted place ever people
• 30:08
  got thrown across the room I don't think that
• 30:12
  ever happened in Ghost Adventures or Ghost Hunters.
• 30:15
  I think people did. It happened off camera, but
• 30:18
  there was one or two instances where people did.
• 30:20
  Oh, yeah, maybe. Wait, really? Off camera. Oh,
• 30:24
  yeah. Yep. Okay. I remember which one you're
• 30:26
  talking about. I got no clue what you're talking
• 30:27
  about. I haven't seen enough of these shows to
• 30:29
  know. Are you sure they're not just saying that,
• 30:35
  though? I don't know. But still, it's like that's
• 30:38
  what. That's like the format of the show, and
• 30:42
  it was very strategic in the way they framed
• 30:45
  everything to make you believe that this is a
• 30:48
  natural arc of investigating. And when you try
• 30:51
  to replicate that, where every investigation
• 30:55
  you film ends up getting aired and posted, and
• 30:59
  everything you do matters, trying to, you can't...
• 31:05
  like it's an unnatural yeah it's unnatural even
• 31:08
  even when you go into being skeptical yes it's
• 31:12
  more genuine but also you have to acknowledge
• 31:14
  they have the luxury of being able to pick and
• 31:16
  choose and craft this narrative yes it's just
• 31:22
  difficult huh it is a catch -22 like you said
• 31:27
  because like you can see both sides of it Well,
• 31:33
  this turned into a bigger conversation than I
• 31:36
  anticipated. I wasn't expecting this. So skeptical.
• 31:41
  I shouldn't say it's a bad thing. We've been
• 31:44
  saying you should be skeptical. No, I was expecting
• 31:47
  like, oh yeah, to talk about the EMF thing and
• 31:50
  then maybe a couple other pieces of equipment
• 31:52
  where you should be skeptical with and why it's
• 31:55
  good to be skeptic, not a whole deep dive on
• 31:57
  skepticism within the... within social media
• 32:02
  and media platforms of the paranormal field.
• 32:05
  What are the other devices? Just quickly go through.
• 32:10
  Oh, just using the spirit box. Not everything
• 32:14
  that comes through the spirit box is something
• 32:16
  paranormal. We've already touched on Ouija boards
• 32:19
  and spirit boards. I feel like every single piece
• 32:23
  of equipment has some sort of human error. Or
• 32:29
  some sort of environmental interference that
• 32:32
  can cause a reaction that people can take as
• 32:38
  being paranormal when it's just normal. Yeah,
• 32:41
  I take every single thing that we can get from,
• 32:44
  like, our equipment very, like... With a grain
• 32:53
  of salt. Yeah, grain of salt. Unless... I will
• 32:57
  think more into it thinking, and maybe it is
• 33:00
  paranormal when you're having like active conversations
• 33:03
  with these equipments responding to you, you
• 33:08
  know, like something's going on and off on command
• 33:10
  and, you know, be like, Hey, tap this once. Or
• 33:16
  if it's a yes, tap it twice for two. And it does
• 33:18
  that constantly. And then it's just, then I'm
• 33:21
  more like, Oh, this is actually really interesting
• 33:24
  compared to. a cap will just going off once you
• 33:28
  know what i mean yeah well that goes into the
• 33:30
  repeatability of it if you're going in skeptical
• 33:33
  you want that repeatability to confirm and reaffirm
• 33:37
  your belief that's going to be a changed belief
• 33:41
  right if you want to change your belief you need
• 33:43
  repeatability and experimentation and yada yada
• 33:45
  yada but it's interesting too we all have our
• 33:50
  blind spots i mean like i'm Like a bit of a camera
• 33:53
  geek myself, right? Really? I didn't know. I
• 33:59
  want to know. Well, I can go on a soapbox about
• 34:03
  orbs. You already did. Don't bring it up again.
• 34:08
  We don't need to talk about it again. I can.
• 34:10
  I can for a lot longer. And many other things
• 34:14
  that happen visually with cameras that can create
• 34:18
  perceived paranormal experiences. I'm not like
• 34:22
  a big audio guy. So when someone presents me
• 34:26
  with an EVP, I'm more likely to respond with
• 34:30
  like, oh my God, what is that to an EVP? Then
• 34:34
  if someone shows me a visual capture and my first
• 34:37
  thought is, well, couldn't that be this, this
• 34:39
  and this? You know what I'm saying? Like we all
• 34:41
  have our blind spots, but if you had an audio
• 34:43
  engineer, a EVP. or like heck the you know composer
• 34:48
  we're working with or like hand someone that
• 34:51
  works in the audio medium an evp they're gonna
• 34:53
  snap right into like that could be this this
• 34:55
  or this and ask all these questions i won't even
• 34:58
  know what it means but you show them an orb and
• 35:00
  they might think it's a ghost so we all there's
• 35:05
  a lot to it too in terms of our own blind spots
• 35:08
  i think the important thing is is when you're
• 35:11
  using equipment period for paranormal investigations
• 35:15
  you should be knowledgeable to an extent with
• 35:19
  them or as knowledgeable as you can be so you
• 35:23
  can determine whether what is happening is natural
• 35:27
  or if it's unnatural phenomenon so and work with
• 35:32
  a good team that has and work with a good team
• 35:34
  and that helps Trust the people that are knowledgeable
• 35:37
  in their fields. Trust your peers. Yeah, I think
• 35:40
  that's all important. Skeptics unite! For the
• 35:49
  first, how many years? Six years of ghost hunting
• 35:53
  together, Ben did not believe in ghosts. He didn't
• 35:58
  believe in ghosts when I first met him either.
• 36:00
  He was adamant that ghosts were not real. He
• 36:04
  believed in paranormal phenomenon. He believed
• 36:07
  in the paranormal and things that were unnatural.
• 36:12
  But he refused to admit that ghosts were real.
• 36:16
  I feel like once you admit that love is real,
• 36:19
  you have to admit that ghosts are real too. I
• 36:24
  mean, ew, gross. Get that out of this podcast.
• 36:28
  Disgusting. I'm gonna bleep that. No, don't.
• 36:34
  Don't. Once you admit that, bleep! Please stand
• 36:38
  by. Benjamin Goldman. What? I don't know, I just
• 36:43
  felt like saying your full name. You don't know
• 36:46
  my middle name, do you? I actually don't know
• 36:48
  your middle name. You would not expect it. I
• 36:52
  feel like I knew it at one point. What a terrible
• 36:54
  HR manager. You don't know your employees? I'm
• 36:57
  pretty sure my HR manager doesn't know my middle
• 37:00
  name. I don't even think they know my name because
• 37:02
  I don't even know who they are. I work for a
• 37:04
  big company. Exactly. Well, the moral of this
• 37:09
  episode, you should talk to your HR managers
• 37:12
  about skepticism within the paranormal community.
• 37:15
  see what they think then they might they might
• 37:18
  give you a questionable look and be like i have
• 37:20
  no idea what you're talking about or why you're
• 37:22
  here they'll look more into you and be like i
• 37:25
  don't know what i think about this person being
• 37:28
  in this company and i don't know you might have
• 37:32
  i think we need to rethink our choices in our
• 37:34
  hires they might have to well let's just hope
• 37:37
  they look at you through a paranormal lens so
• 37:41
  with that Any final comments? No. No. I think
• 37:48
  we really... I'm not going to try to say it again,
• 37:54
  but we, I think... Yep. Did that thing. We did
• 37:58
  the thing. Yay for us. We did the thing with
• 38:00
  the nail and the head. I don't think there's
• 38:04
  a hammer in this thing at all. What about hitting
• 38:06
  the nail in the coffin is a thing too, right?
• 38:10
  Yeah. Yeah. I hate idioms. Thanks for listening
• 38:21
  to this week's episode of Paranormal Lens. If
• 38:24
  you liked what you heard, every five -star rating
• 38:26
  and positive review tells the algorithms we're
• 38:29
  a worthy podcast and pushes us out to more listeners.
• 38:33
  We appreciate each and every one of you and we'll
• 38:36
  see you next Thursday for another paranormal
• 38:38
  deep dive.