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Killer Thriller: The Homecoming Princess Who Became a Charles Manson Killer · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Hey, everybody.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Imagine being
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: a teenager who looks like she has a perfectly normal life.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Then she meets a charismatic stranger, joins his group of
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: free-spirited young followers, and winds up taking part in one
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: of the most horrifying murder sprees in American history. That
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: is the story of Leslie Van Houten, who was just
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: 19 when she helped murder Leno and Rosemary LaBianca on
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: the orders of Charles Manson. She spent more than five
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: decades behind bars before being released in 2023. My guest
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: today is Greer Grammer, who played Leslie in Lifetime's Manson's
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Lost Girls. We're talking about how Manson gained control of
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: these young women and the chilling reality behind the movie,
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: and the question that still divides people. How much responsibility
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: belongs to the follower and how much to the man
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: pulling the strings?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Hi, Greer.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: with me today.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Hi, of course.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: So I am a big fan.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: We've already chatted offline about the ways that we know
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: each or have mutual friends, and so I'm a very
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: big fan. And But today we are talking about Manson's
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Lost Girls. Honestly, this could be like a decade long
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: interview because there's so much to say. And I read
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: that you were obsessed with Manson since you were 15.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Like what drew you to the case in the first place?
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. So it's like the most random story
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: and also in the most like theater kid way. I
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: went to a school called Idlewild Arts Academy, which was
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: like a boarding arts high school in Idlewild, California. And
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: we had a class musical theater rep and these two people,
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: my friends Preston and Tara, sang this beautiful duet called
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: Unworthy of Your Love from Assassins, from the musical Assassins.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: By Stephen Sondheim. And I was like, this is such
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: a beautiful love song. They're singing to each other. It's amazing.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: And they were like, they're not singing to each other.
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: One of the characters is Squeaky Fromm, and she's singing
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: to Charles Manson in prison. And the other one is
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: John Hinckley Jr., and he's writing a letter to Jodie Foster.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: And they're singing this. And it comes out like a
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: beautiful duet, but it's not.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: And I was like, who's Squeaky Fromm? Who? who's Charles Manson?
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: And so immediately like went home, Googled and was like,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: oh my gosh. And just became enthralled and like wrapped
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: up in it. Because I think the thing that draws
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: most people to the Manson case is just that like,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: not that it was normal because it wasn't normal, but
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: for the sixties, these were like people from normal neighborhoods, suburbia,
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: maybe that were, you know, cast away from their parents
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: or summer of love. Like experimenting with things but living
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: on a hippie commune like wasn't uncommon so it's like
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: what drew these people to this man and what made
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: them do this incredibly heinous awful crime and how is
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: that different than you and so it's just like I
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: went down a whole rabbit hole and just became like
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: obsessed with it it was so fascinating to.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Me yep to me too and so so.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: Essentially, for those who don't know much about Charles Manson,
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: which I don't know if there is anybody who doesn't
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: know about Charles Manson, but how, so he was essentially a,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: had spent most of his life in prison, was, had
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: a terrible childhood, got out of prison, was a failed musician,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: you know, was convicted criminal.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: So how does somebody like.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: That manage to attract so many young followers and particularly women?
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that's a really great question.
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: When I'm asking myself every time I learn something new
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: about this case, I think, you know, he had that
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: thing for whatever reason that just made people feel seen.
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: Like he was really good. He read that book, How
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: to Win Front.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: And Influence People? Yes.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I think he read it in prison.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: And so he learned a lot from there, but then,
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: you know, he just, he knew what to say to
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: these like girls. And I, I mean, I've been in
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: a toxic relationship. I know many of my friends have
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: as well. Like you fall for somebody that says like,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: you're so beautiful and you're so amazing.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: And the world doesn't see you, but I see you.
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: And it's so easy to get wrapped up in that,
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: especially when there's drugs involved.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Like it's easy in general, but also like they were,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: on a, they were on a ranch, like they were
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: doing drugs. Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: I think that part cannot be underestimated how, if you
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: are consistently on a regular basis doing heavy drugs and
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: hallucinogens and you have no outside influence, it's like, I mean, you're,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: it's absolutely a big factor in this. And do you know,
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: so in terms of, so the spawn ranch is what
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: you're talking about where they eventually wound up. traveled from
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: San Francisco and set up at this ranch that was
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: an old movie ranch that I feel like I've shot
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: on this ranch before, or I've shot where maybe where
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: they shot the movie.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we shot there, but the original spawn ranch is
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: in Chatsworth.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of weird stuff that goes on in Chatsworth.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: A lot of weird stuff that happens in Chatsworth. It's far.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: It's an, it's a great psychic there though.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: I will say, um, Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. But, um, aside
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: from that, a lot of weird things go on there. Um,
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: cause I don't consider that weird at all.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, so the spawn ranch, so initially it.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: Looks like this idyllic escape, but did you, what did
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: you learn about kind of what the, the daily life
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: was like there? Like were, were the girls allowed to,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: to leave if they wanted to, were they allowed to
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: do whatever they wanted?
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: I'm, as far as I remember from my research, like
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: the girls went out, um, especially like Susan and Leslie
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: and Patricia, I think like they would go out, they would, um,
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: dumpster dive all the time. I feel like they had
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: a specific name for it. That wasn't dumpster dive. It
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: was something cooler. Um, but they would go and they
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: would like get food and bring it back to the ranch.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: Like they would, you know, go rob people. Um, In
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: cutesy ways. I know that sounds not fun, but they
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: didn't have a lot of money. They weren't working, so
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: they would lure men in and just take their money
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: and have fun with it.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: They were committing crimes.
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: I don't want to say they weren't committing crimes, but
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: they were intentionally trying to.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Rob and hold people up at gunpoint. They would go
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: out and do creepy crawlies. I know that was a
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: big thing, and we had that in the movie.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us what that is.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: So the girls, I hate that I seem so excited
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: saying it because it's actually terrifying. The girls would go,
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: and I guess the guys too, would go into people's homes.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Notoriously, the 60s, people didn't lock their doors.
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: So they would go into people's homes in the middle
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: of the night and just move things around and move
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: the furniture around, maybe take some stuff too. They would,
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: I'm sure, steal jewelry and valuables and cash that they
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: could find, but they weren't intentionally... robbing the place. They
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: were just going in to mess with people.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: Like sort of the thrill of that or something.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: Going in the thrill of like maybe getting caught, but
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: like the fun of going in and like messing and
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: like moving a vase from one place to the next
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: and pulling chairs out and switching furniture around.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: It's eerie. Like if you wake up in the morning.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: It's very eerie.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's terrifying.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: And then you can imagine how.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: That sort of escalates, right? It's like, it is typical
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: cult-like behavior. You do these minor infractions, these little things
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: that seem maybe off, but oh, it's kind of fun.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: And then that just becomes deeper and more serious and
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: worse and more dangerous and more violent. And so what
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: do you, what was Manson's most effective tactic for making
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: the followers feel chosen and special. Did the research you do,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: you did suggest that his power came more from the
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: affection or intimidation or the drugs or a combination?
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Combination for sure.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: But I would definitely say the love and affection like
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: was the number one, especially, particularly with the girls. I
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: can't really speak to the male part of it. And
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: he did have men at the ranch that were followers.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: But I would say with the women, it was really
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: like people that came from broken homes, people whose fathers
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: had left or whose parents had kicked them out because,
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: you know, maybe they got into a little bit of
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: trouble or were hanging out with the wrong people.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: And I think it really was just this like, I
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: love you. I see you. You're beautiful.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: I know I kind of said that earlier, but I
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: do think you know, come be here, come be with me,
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: come be a part of my family.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Like, I think people that not come from.
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: Broken homes necessarily, but I think everybody to an extent
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: wants to feel seen and chosen and loved.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: And like, especially if you don't have that paternal love
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: from your.
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: Parents, you know, you are seeking that out.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: And if somebody says like, come be a part of
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: my family, come live with me, I'll take care of you.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: And the entire culture at the time was saying like,
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: tune in, turn on, drop out.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Is that, did I say that right?
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: You know, that idea of the establishment is wrong about everything.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Vietnam is a disaster.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: You know, and Squeaky Fromm famously keep like that, that
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: clip of her holding the gun and saying he stole
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: us from our parents and gave us back to ourselves.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: And it's like, it's so terrifying considering what we know
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: actually happened.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: And yeah, what did happen? Yeah, it was that time.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: It was summer of love. And just, yeah, your parents
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: don't know anything. They're strict. They're rigid. They're 50s.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: The way that they grew up is not how we
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: want to be. We've seen the light. We're seeing the
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: world for.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: What it is.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: We love each other. That was such an element. And
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: so it's like you feel found.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: And Leslie in particular, she had a somewhat more kind
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: of solid family life. right?
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: And she just, she's spoken.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: I'm like fascinated by her because, and she was just
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: recently released from prison. But when she talks, she talks
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: about how she sort of wanted something bigger than what
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: girls were allowed to be.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: At the time.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: Like, can you talk about that of what you learned
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: about her?
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Um, I, um, found such like a love for Leslie
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: and who she was in her, like she's from Monrovia, um, California,
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: which is like right outside Los Angeles. Uh, she was
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: a prom queen, like just a pretty normal girl, but
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: wanted more. And, um, I think I'm like trying to
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: think of like what I, um, learn about. I, the,
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: the big thing for me that I remember is that my, um,
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: college boyfriend at the time who I was dating, uh,
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: his mom went to.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: School with Leslie and was friends with her little sister.
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: So I know, so I like, I was like, what?
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: So when I got the role, Claudia was like, Oh, I,
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: I knew Leslie.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I knew the Van Houten's like, it was so nice.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: She was so normal.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: She was like, I didn't hang out with her as
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: much because I was friends with her sister, but Um,
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: she was always, she was so pretty and she was
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: so nice and she was so sweet.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: This is like, he was such a great neighbor and
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: you know, he turned into a serial killer.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, I mean, with Leslie, it's, it's
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: hard because she always says that she didn't actually participate
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: in hurting anybody at the LaBianca's and she, she famously
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: wasn't at the Tate murders.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: So she wasn't a part of that, but she went
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: the next night. And, you know, she claims that she
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: it's like so gruesome.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: No, please. It's OK. That's on here.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: But she stabbed, you know, postmortem. And it was mainly
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: because Tex told her everybody has to get their hands dirty.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: That was Charlie's orders. So she and she's always stuck
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: to that and claimed that.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: So she right. She's claiming that they were already dead.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: She didn't kill anyone and she didn't participate in the
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: killing because it was like too much for her. But
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: that she had to stab one or two.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: And we should say this is this incredibly random killing, right?
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Like, why were these people chosen? Why was this particular
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: house chosen?
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the LaBiancas were chosen mainly because I think they
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: wanted to try to frame it so it looked like
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: the Black Panthers were worked trying to, you know, incite
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: a race war. And they had done the Tate murders
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: the night before.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I want to say it was the night before. And
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: they wanted to make it seem like it was this
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: other thing and not them. And yeah, it was just
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: a totally, they went and they found a random house
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: in Louisville as they drove around and they said that one. God.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: It's just, it's so terrifying.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Something else that I watched last night because I may
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: or may not have been up to like one watching
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: these things.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: But I watched your movie over the weekend.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: But then I was like, oh, you just go down
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: the rabbit hole with these things.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: But you know that some.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: Of these women have deep remorse because they understand what happened.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And some just don't.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Like Squeaky Fromm just says she's so honored to– have
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: known him.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And I don't understand.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: It's so crazy.
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: And I mean, squeaky wasn't a part of the murder.
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: So I don't know if that clouds her judgment, not
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: to give too much grace to people that were awful.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: So I don't know if maybe because she doesn't have
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: those memories or those.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Experiences, you're like, you know, they're like, well, that wasn't
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: my experience. in today's world.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: And that's what I would imagine, like, someone that could say.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: But it's so crazy.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the group, one of the hardest things to understand
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: is the family, the whole group, preached this love and freedom,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: but all of the members, they were subject to Manson's demands,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: and everything that he.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Said is what they did. So what was the sort
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: of the.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: The clearest example of that contradiction of it's a total
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: love and freedom, but you have to do everything that
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: I say. I, it's so similar from all the other
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: like cults that I've researched or looked at or documentaries
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: I've watched.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, I got really into the next CM
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: case for real.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Don't even, I know I interviewed Sarah Edmondson. She's just
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: a phenomenal person. I'm, I'm just wildly impressed with her.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Incredible.
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: And like, Everything that I've seen of her has been amazing.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: You know, that was such a situation, but it's these
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: people who kind of give their full lives to somebody
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: and then they can't go back. So there's fear of, well,
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: now I've chosen you and this, and I can't go
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: back to my family and I can't go back to
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: my friends. And so now there's the other aspect of
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: not abandonment, but being kicked out and then having nowhere
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: to go. It's kind of tribe mentality, right? So it's–
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: that's where he gets you. It's like he lures you in.
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: He tells you you're loved and you're safe and you
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: can be a family here. And then all of a
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: sudden it switches to like, well, but if you don't
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: do what I say, then you're not a part of
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: my family and you don't love me and you don't
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: care for me the way that you've said you did.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: And so you can get out and no one will
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: have you or take you now. So that's kind of
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: where all of those– It was similar with Jonestown. Like,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of that thing of like you
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: get lured in under love and equality and we're all
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: going to be together.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: And I see you and you're going to do such
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: great things and we're going to change the world. Because
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: that was also Charlie Manson's whole thing was he was like,
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: we're going to change the world.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I see what's coming. I see the race war. I
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: see the– he went on like environmental tirades like later
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: on in life when he was in prison. Yeah. And,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: you know, we're going to be a part of it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: We're going to start it. We're going to help it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: We're going to.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: Come at, where did they, they found them in like
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: Death Valley in a bunker. And the whole thing was
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: that like the race war was going to happen.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: And then they were going.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: To rise from the bunker.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: And it's kind of like, and then we'll come and
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: we'll fix everything and we'll be the light and we'll
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: be the way. And you do just kind of believe
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: that when you're, Right.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: In it.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: And then once you're so far in it, you can't, like,
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: even when you start having doubts, because that was the
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: thing with Linda Kasabian, right?
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: She was the girl that was kind of like, I
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: don't like this. But they had her kid and they
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: had her and she didn't have anyone to go to
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: and was kind of like, I don't know what to
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: do because I can't leave or they're going to come
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: kill me if I leave.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Right. So the movie is told through Linda Kasabian's essentially
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: her story. So did you, how did the women relate
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: to one another in your research? Did the supposed sisterhood
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: make it harder for anyone to challenge Manson or leave? Like,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: was there a jealousy aspect or a, you know, cause
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: all these things like I, I, this, these, these kinds of,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: it really gets me this misogyny disguised as I.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Love women, you know?
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: It's because then inherently there's something in there where it
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: creates this jealousy of the women.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: And like, can you talk about that a little bit?
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely think that that is what was happening.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know that he.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Had a very special relationship with Susan Atkins. I think
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: like that was kind of his number one, at least.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: And that's the way that like our movie portrayed it. Um,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: research that I did, that was also what I found. Um,
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: and I think that there was jealousy in between, between
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: the girls.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Um, put on with a fakeness of I'm happy
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: to share. There was a scene that got cut where I,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I think maybe Susan does something with Bobby
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and Bobby and Leslie were, you know, together in the,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: in real life and in the, at the, in the movie.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: And it was kind of like a power play. Like I,
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Susan tried to get with Bobby to piss Leslie off
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: because Leslie was I think had done something with Charlie
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: or Charlie chose Leslie to do something, not even sexually,
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: but just like praised her, you know, in a, in
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: a group setting or something. And so there was kind
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: of this jealousy and this, like, I'm going to be.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: The one in good graces. So I'm going to sneak
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: around this way.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: So that then like, I get to be like, Oh,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: but look at Charlie. Cause they all wanted his affection.
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: And that's the other thing with like, you know, there
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: were guys there.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: But, He was the leader, so you naturally wanted his
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: praise and affection and attention.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: And we should say Bobby, you're talking about is Bobby Beausoleil,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: who was really kind of one of the most violent, diabolical.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Members of this cult.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely think that there were elements of
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: that in there.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: And there's a really upsetting scene in the movie where
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: someone comes to buy the car that they've... Stolen. Right.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: And Charlie basically sells off one of the girls and says,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: this is what you get with it.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Like, can you explain that scene?
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: There's basically like a, you have to go and you
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: have to do this because.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: You have to go have sex with this random older man.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: So it, Yeah.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: And he says, I don't want to, like, I love you.
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: And he's like, well, this is how you prove your
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: love to me. Right.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: He presented it like you have to have sex with
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: him as a sort of a bonus to the deal
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: or something.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Cause yeah, he wanted, I think maybe they
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: didn't have enough money.
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: And so it was like, okay, well then I'll take
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: what you have and I'll take that girl.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: And, um, they were like, great.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: You have to go.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: You have to go do that.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: It's all so upsetting. I know.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: So Manson took the group, including Leslie, to the LaBianca home.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: He ties up the couple and then left and left
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: the others to kill them. Did you learn anything about
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: Leslie's state of mind during that trip?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think from what I remember doing the
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: research of, she was– they were all on LSD or
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: at least that's what she said.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: So she was absolutely high.
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: And I, I do know that I think she, she
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: really want, she wanted to go because obviously the tape
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: murders had happened the night before and they all watched
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: that on the news and saw the papers and it
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: feels sick to say like we're, proud of themselves and
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: had gel, especially because like they were proud of themselves
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: for the fact that like it was movie stars and
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: it made the news and it was this huge thing.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: Cause a lot of the people at the ranch, like
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: I don't think Leslie knew who that they were going
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: to the Tate house.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Like they didn't know that Sharon, um, be there, which
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: is just horrifying.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: So I think that, you know, people wanted to go
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: and do the next one and they wanted to help because, um, Also,
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: they were told that this was going to be the
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: thing that starts Helter Skelter and starts the– not end
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: of times, but.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: But we're going to– it's black people are bad, but
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: they're going to start the race war. But then we're
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: going to hide from the race war. And then they're
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: going to kill themselves, but we're going to help do that.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: And then we're going to come back up and over– like,
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: it doesn't– it's not a linear plan.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: No, no, it's not. It's so crazy and makes literally
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: no sense at all.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: And I don't know why that was the thing that
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: he was– going with because even there's a scene that
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: we have in the movie where they're at dinner and
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: he's like oh have you heard the white album have
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: you been listening to the beatles like helter skelter they're
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: saying that there's going to be this race war.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: And this and that and the other guy's like uh
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: i didn't.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't get that that's not what i heard not
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: what i heard.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: On that song so it is kind of weird how he.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: Got that outside of just he just wanted to inside
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: as much violence as possible which.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Is really just right.
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah i think again they all believed in the message.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: They all believed in what he was saying. They believed
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: that they had to start this thing that was then
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: going to end the world and then have, they were
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: going to come back.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: It really is chilling also to see, you know, some
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: of the, the court proceedings. And I mean, I, seeing
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: these women, you know, behaving, they'd be in flowery dresses
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: and singing songs. And I think it was Leslie or
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: maybe it was, Diane who said that I think it
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: was Leslie that said they would meet with Charlie every
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: day before which also I'm like why were they allowed
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: to meet with him when they were all in jail
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and on trial but I guess things have changed but
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: that he would orchestrate everything like today you're going to
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: stand in front of them and you're going to raise
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: your hands in this certain symbol and Next day where
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: you're going to all shave your heads. And it really
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: created this chaos in the courtroom. It was such a
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: spectacle of, you know, the Looney Tunes people are running
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: the mental hospital.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: Well, and it was like, again, these people that had
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: done such heinous, awful crimes that the world saw.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Just acting so... silly and singing and funny.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: And these girls, again, all seemed fairly normal, at least
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: from looks wise until they showed up with swastikas carved
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: in their heads and shaved their heads.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: And, but it, it was like, people were like, what's happened?
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Because it was so insane.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: And it was, it was like people hospital just every
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: day doing a new thing, um, which, you know, it was, entertaining,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: I guess to some, cause it was like, what.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Are they going to do next? These crazy people that
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: did these awful things.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: And he would like speak in tongues on when he
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: was on trial and like leash out of his seat.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Like it was crazy.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, all those things are so similar.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: It makes me think of NXIVM again, hit the followers
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: of Keith Vignery who were outside of the prison dancing
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: and singing and.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: Like, Very similar to, like, what Sweetie Sama's doing outside
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: of the courthouse. Because she would sit outside and she
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: would say, you know, Charlie's innocent and you guys don't
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: know what's coming.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: And kind of displays him from outside the courthouse. And
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: they would all do that.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: And it's very similar. I actually never made that connection.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: That's very similar to what was happening with.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Keith and Erie.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: So you said that you considered reaching out to Leslie,
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: but decided that it wasn't appropriate. Can you say why?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: And then what would you have asked her if you
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: had spoken to her?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: Well, I think from everything that I had read that
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: I had learned about Leslie, recent interviews, or as recent as.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I could get at the time, she really didn't want
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: to talk about it. She really was trying to move
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: forward with her life in prison as best she could.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: And that's the reason why she ended up getting released.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: I think for her knowing like that.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Someone's doing a movie and not glamorizing it because we
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: weren't doing that. But I think it's just, it's a
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: part of her life that she doesn't want to remember
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: and want to dive into.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: And even though I would have loved to have talked.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: To her and gotten to know her and her story
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: and who she is and who she was a little
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: bit more than what I knew just from what we
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: all know. It just didn't, feel right to talk to
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: her and be like I'm playing you in a movie
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: like it just felt a little I don't know if
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: sad is the right word or just because gross isn't
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: the right word either because I really would have loved
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: to have talked to her and gotten like the best
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: of intentions to be like I want to play you
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: honorably I want to know who you are.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Well it's respecting her wishes essentially if she doesn't want
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: to talk about it, you know.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I just, yeah, I wanted to respect
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: her in that way.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: And the fact that, you know, she's trying to, she
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: was trying to move forward as best she could with
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: her life and make amends and not relive something that's,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: you know, such a terrible, dark thing for her. But
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: I knew Mike and Chris, Mike Chesler and Chris Alberghini,
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: who are the showrunners on Awkward, they were actually friends
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: with Leslie.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, you're kidding.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: No, yeah, because they saw the Deadline article and we
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: were shooting the final, I think, episode of Awkward ever
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: when I was doing both.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: At the same time, actually.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Talk about opposing projects.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: Well, and what's so funny and random is that one
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: of the days we were shooting at the same place.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: We were both shooting at Calamigos Ranch. So like literally
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: I showed up for work one day for Awkward, I think.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: And I saw the Manson trailers.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Getting pulled out. Oh, wow. Which was so interesting.
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: And my hair was a whole thing because they wanted
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: to dye it brown. And I was like, you can't
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: do that.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Right. You should.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: I show where I'm notoriously blonde, but so I was
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: doing those things at the same time. And when the
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: deadline article came out, Chris and Mike approached me and
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: they were like, oh my gosh, you're, you're playing. We
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: know her, we know her and Pat. And I can't remember,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: there were friends with John Waters befriended Leslie and Pat.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: And I think they met her that way and they
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: would go and they would visit her and write her
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: letters and notes.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: And so I got a lot of, Yeah.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: What did they say?
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: They just said that, you know, they said she was
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: the nicest person and, um, they were kind of like,
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: it's a shame that she can't get out and probably won't.
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: Cause this was in 2015. Um, because she, they were like,
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: she really is just like the loveliest person.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: And, you know, she didn't.
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: Actually partake in the killing part of it. And I'm like, well,
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: we don't know that, but okay. Um, And they just
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: said that she was so nice and so sweet and
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: so lovely and kind and, you know, and that like
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: Pat felt really, Pat felt really bad, Patricia.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: And, but that they were really nice.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: She, Patricia Cranwinkle has spoken a lot about it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: So the, the film implies much of the violence, which
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: I appreciate rather than graphically showing it. Was there a
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: scene that you thought became more disturbing because of what
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: the viewers did not see?
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: I mean, anything that has to do with Sharon Tate
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: is horrifying. And I do think you see or you
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: hear her say, don't kill my baby.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: You hear her, yeah.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: You hear her, and.
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: That's always horrific. Like, reading it is... horrifying, hearing it,
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: seeing it in any.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: And she was pregnant.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: That's, that's what she means by my baby for people
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: that don't know.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Might not know that.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Um, yes.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: She was like nine months. I mean, she was basically
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: like weeks away from giving birth. Um, and you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: they killed her, they cut open her stomach and the
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: baby was like so horrific and just to think of,
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: so like if you, if you know what happened, just
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: even hearing it is just chill.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Like it's chilling. It's chilling.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's always the, that line there.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: I think there are moments when we, it's important to
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: be really confronted with an image of something. And then
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: there are many times when it is important to not
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: do that. And oftentimes I feel like that is that
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: fine line of exploitation and kind of trying to communicate
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: human issues. And yeah.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Well, cause I mean, she was a very real person.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: These were very real people with very real families that
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: had to live this. And every time there's a new
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: movie and every time there's a new story, like the
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: family has to go through it again. They have to
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: be reminded as well as the public. And it's just, it's, yeah,
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: it's something that's really, really hard. And I think having
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: the human aspect of like, we don't need to show this.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: We don't need to exploit this person's very real disturbed,
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: disturbing pain.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Like it's, you know, it's horrible.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: And it is, you know, telling these, these stories in
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: a narrative way is, I'd say this all the time
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: is important in a, in an informative sort of a way.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: And so to that end, like after everything that you learned,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: And after Leslie's release, what do you most want younger
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: viewers to understand about charismatic leaders, group pressure, and the
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: danger of surrendering, you know, your own personal judgment?
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: That's a loaded question.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: It's so hard because I felt this when watching the
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: NXIVM documentaries is like, these people are all searching for
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: the same thing, which is love. And it's the same
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: reason why people get into religious cults as well. You know,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: it's like a God shaped hole. It's this hole inside
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: of you that you feel. And so you're looking for
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: somebody to fill it. And I think it's so much
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: easier said than done to be like, you get to
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: be the person that fills that because at 19.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And that's the other thing we have to remember.
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: Is really young when this happened, they were like, 18, 19, 20,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: maybe 21.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Like they were young and impressionable. And you think you
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: have so much when you're that age and then you
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: get older and you realize I actually didn't know anything.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: And I wish I wouldn't have done that because that
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: wasn't the thing that was going to fill me up.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Because really only you can do that and surrounding yourself
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: with good people. And I guess it's really just about
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: knowing who you are.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: I hate my high school had a saying that was, uh,
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: remember who you are and what you stand for. And
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: we had to say it at the end of every.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Um, all school meeting.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: And it sounds so silly because it was so annoying
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: to have to say every Friday, but that is, those
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: are the words that are coming to me, which is like,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: remember who you are and what you stand for and
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: keep that like at the forefront of your brain, your heart,
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: your soul. Um, because when you see something going on
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: and you know that it's not right, like you have
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: to be able to overcome the feeling of being.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Liked and loved and.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: And accepted.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: And yep.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: That's the word I was like, appreciated isn't the word
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I'm looking for accepted to.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: Be able to say, no, I'm, I'm, I'm walking away
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: and this is wrong. Like you have to be able
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: to do that.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And it's so hard, but just to really like, no,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: to know that that.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: Is, advice.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: And that is such a hard, those years.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, the youngest girl, as I said, Diane was 14,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: which is a whole other, I have a 14 year
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: old daughter.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: So the thought of that is just absolutely unimaginable to me.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: But Those years, those teen years, it's just what you said.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: Like you think you know everything, but it's also you
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: want to define who you are and you're discovering things
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: about the world and you're leaving the constructs of high
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: school and growing up. And it's just so important to
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: not jump on a bandwagon.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: That's what I would say.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: And it sounds like, you know, we all hear the
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: saying of, like, if your friends jumped off a bridge,
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: would you do it?
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: And sometimes, like, as a teenager, I was like, no.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And then other times I was like, yeah, because, like,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: is there a bunch of, like, you know, you make
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: all these other excuses of, like, are we bungee jumping?
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Is there a cord? Like, what are we doing? And
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: it's just really, like, yeah, you just have to know
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: to say no. No.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: And it's so hard and so nuanced because it's something
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: that you learn and you just hope that it doesn't
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: end up like this.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: And I would also say maybe you don't do drugs.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: And that's a really important one too. Don't do drugs,
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: especially like drugs that you don't know and that are
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: coming men on a ranch. Like that's just, you know, yeah.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: Cause your brain is so.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Right. It's not fully formed.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Well, Greer, you are such a treat. You're such a delight.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: I'm so happy to meet you and talk with you.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: And the movie is called Manson's Lost Girls and it
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: is streaming online.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: And thank you so much for talking with me.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Seriously. This was like such
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: a treat. I, I, I love you and I love,
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I love to shoot.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's a, it's a good one.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you.