Latest / Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder / 74. Every Kid Needs Someone: Building a Culture of Belonging with Mark Dance

Transcript

74. Every Kid Needs Someone: Building a Culture of Belonging with Mark Dance · Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are you dedicated to working with kids and families in the local church?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, clearly that's more than a career, that's a calling.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jana Magruder and this is Kids Ministry Calling.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, kids need to know that the church is a place where they are known, loved, and connected to people who will walk with them as they grow in their faith.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing: that kind of belonging doesn't just happen by accident.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: It happens through intentional relationships.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Today, we're bringing you a conversation recorded live at the Southern Baptist Convention, where I have the chance to sit down with Dr.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mark Dance to talk about creating a culture of belonging in our churches.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mark is the executive director of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention, and former pastor and church planter and author of several books, including his latest, Start to Finish.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Mark and I talk about the power of relationships, why pastors and ministry leaders need to model friendship, and how healthy relationships among adults can create a stronger community for kids.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So let's jump into this conversation recorded live at the SEC with my old friend, Dr.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Mark Dance.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey everybody.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Mark, could you kind of set up who you are and what you do?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I'm serving as the executive director of the Arkansas Baptist Convention.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: I've been doing that for nine months.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nine months.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: And uh served pastors with Life Weight and Guidestone for about 10 years before that and pastored churches for almost 30 years before that.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think of you almost as a pastor of pastors.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know that you have been a pat a senior pastor for many years, off and on through your career.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I know you as someone who has worked with pastors for many years in a variety of contexts, even here at Life Way for a while.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell me about that work that you do.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, pastor and pastors is is uh is not a whole lot different than pastoring church members.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's as every pastor is a shepherd, but he but he he's also a sheep.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: And so we all need to keep growing.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we all need encouragement.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: And we uh fortunately in the Southern Baptist Convention have ad pastor advocates on every level, associational level, state level, national levels.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, fortunately got to do that with Life Wave and Guidesone for a season.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel like in this current role, I'm still encouraging pastors and hopefully on this podcast as well.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you may not know this, but I really like to have a senior pastor on from time to time for our kids' ministry audience because we just we love to hear your perspective and for you to even be the voice of many senior pastors um and how we can work together really well to do ministry together.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so you and I are friends.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I knew you were gonna be at the convention, and I thought I'm gonna grab Mark and see if he'll sit down and give us some wisdom here.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you don't necessarily know what we're talking about.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I briefed you very, very quickly.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get to a couple of things.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but listeners, you have known uh about the con the construct that we've created called flip.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: We believe that every kid should have four key relationships at church that create a sense of belonging.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know that especially this generation and the research that we've done, this generation truly does need to feel like they belong.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what better place than the church to create that space of biblical belonging?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because the world would say, Yeah, you can belong over here, but that's not necessarily what we want.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: We want them to feel like they belong at church and not be part of the the big statistic of kids who leave the church after high school.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's always been a big thing.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not, it has not really changed.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them leave as soon as they graduate, some of them come back later, many of them don't.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how can we make sure that they feel that sense of belonging uh when we really dig into asking those teenagers why did you leave?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is usually a reason that has to do with relationships.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel like I belonged, I didn't feel connected.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we get in front of that, even at the kids' ministry level, to help kids feel like they belong?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I kind of wanted to maybe walk you through that acronym, yeah, F-L-I-P.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that is the four relationships that we've identified could really help create that sense of belonging.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then, listeners, stay tuned because I'm gonna reveal something to you at the end that I think is really fun and special that's going to help illustrate our um our conversation.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right, so kids who um uh a study that we did with Lifeway Research showed that kids who grew up with a best friend at church are much more likely to stay in church and not be part of those levers.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we create and foster friendships at church?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: Well, for a pastor, you're you're kind of the cultural curator, right?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's good.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_04: It is um it kind of all flows from what you're doing, not what you're saying.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and so the first thing a pastor has to do is have friendships.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: Model that model that I was told back in the late 80s when I became a pastor not to make friends with church members because it you would be uh accused of practicing favoritism.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, friendship doesn't have to be favoritism, and so there's a lot of pastors and uh wives who don't have friends because of that myth.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's unbiblical.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um the fact is I have friendships that are lifetime friendships that started when I was a child in my childhood church, and I have my closest friends are also those that I've made in pastoring churches.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I have some that have just deepened and grown.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: And and if a pastor and his family does that, it just creates the culture for everyone else to do it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I really love that, and I don't know if we've ever uh made that obvious point that even as leaders, we need to be modeling friendship.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so kids ministry leaders, that's for you for us too.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that you said that about pastors.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um L stands for leaders, so we're gonna get to the P part, which is pastors, so stay tuned for that.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But just think about through the lens of um the leaders that would be a part of a kid's life.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's a Sunday school teacher, small group leader.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um any advice on that?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, the uh I'm in this season of life, I've I've buried a lot of my Sunday school teachers and deacons in the church that we grew up in.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um that becomes your faith family, to borrow Faith Whatley's term.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's the first time I heard it, and I've used it a million times.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_04: So shout out.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_04: But the faith family um meant that you you had a bunch of uncles and aunts.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_04: And so uh the leaders in the church are also sheep, they're also people that want you to succeed and have invested in you in uh different stages of your life.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: And those uh many of those become friendships.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and those friendships become adult friendships, and when that happens, that's a multi-generational win for the for the church.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: And for you know, even when you move to another city for school or work, you still can have connections now more than any other time in in Christian history.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Right, we can stay connected with people who invested in us, and we can show respect back and reciprocate to them in our later years when it's time for them to get promoted into heaven, we can be there for them.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's such an interesting perspective.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that I don't think we've ever made that point here is that uh if if if done right and you've got these leaders pouring into your life at a young age, and you stay in the church, that we're gonna flip that script even where you you like you said, it's a full circle moment where you um you may even, like you said, bury your Sunday school teacher one day.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I hate to say that out loud, but that's I think that's what you said.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: We're not afraid to talk about death.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh goodness.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, so influencers, I I told you that could mean maybe it's not the primary Sunday school teacher in an in the life of a child or their their direct leader, but maybe it's just the other people in the church.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm calling an influencer, not someone who takes a picture of avocado toast, although they might be.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so how could we create a culture where everybody is kind of aware of kids in the church and and calling them by name, that kind of thing?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, I remember the adults that saw me as a child in the hall, that spoke to me, that smiled or stopped to say hello.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: And it's so easy in church to just connect with your friends and and and those closest to your interest and your age.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: But Jesus showed us how to do that, how to get down to their level to see them.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the disciples obviously had a learning curve there.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: But what those influencers see sometimes is something that we haven't seen yet.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was from uh influencers in my church that I would hear what they thought was my spiritual gift before I knew what my spiritual gift was.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: And having those opportunities, the first time I taught anything, I filled in for a sixth grade Sunday school teacher as a 12th grader.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: And what the fact is I ended up teaching the entire year because that teacher never came back.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: But I I loved it.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um we'd go on mission trips as a as a kid, yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, and be with uh other adults and be treated like someone who was gonna bring value.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so when an influencer reaches across a generation, especially uh to it to a child, um they they rarely forget that.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So true, so true.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And just to be known by name at your church by other adults that are, like you said, in the hallways, passing by, giving you a high five or a fist bump, knowing a little bit about you, um, asking about your baseball game or or whatever it is.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, that is just invaluable.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, like you said, creating a culture where that is modeled and encouraged, um, and it it becomes contagious.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because as you see other people doing it, it comes more natural to do that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um, all right.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: P is the one I wanted to get to the quickest.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So P stands for pastors.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Listeners, you've heard me talk about this so much from our book, Flip the Script, uh, about how kids need four key relationships to feel that sense of belonging at church, which is really where we want them to find belonging.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Friends, leaders, influencers, and pea stands for pastors.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I wanted to talk to my good friend Mark about this letter because um he's worked with a lot of different pastors.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we as kids ministry leaders are always wanting to find ways to engage our pastors, our senior pastors, but other pastors and ministry leaders that are on staff in kids' ministry because we want our kids to know you and know what you do, and know that you are their pastor too, not just mom and dad's pastor, but you're their pastor too.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are some easy ways that we could do that?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: Well, first of all, let me just say to those pastors who are natural with children, good for you.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm not that guy.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I want to talk to the others who are like, this is awkward.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: I've always gravit gravitated towards older people, senior adults, and um and children have always been a little intimidating for me.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I've found that a lot of pastors feel that way.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: Some are intimidated by older people or some are intimidated by everybody, but but the but the fact is it's not an excuse, right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because the the pastor represents um the leader um and head of of that family, in a sense, and and so uh we can do more than just you know march with the flags in BBS.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_04: We we actually just showing up, not having to be the fun pastor, the crazy pastor.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um just be yourself.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_04: And they remember you as someone who sees them, not someone who entertain them.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: And and so pastors showing up means being to things that you don't have any role in.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: You don't have to always be the speaker, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, just being there also supports the other teachers.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: Because they're part of the faith family and can sometimes be ostracized or ostracized themselves from the flow.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's so true.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so you gotta bring it to them.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: And they've got they want to be seen and should be as well.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just the presence, having a presence.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes, and I'm just gonna be vulnerable and say, as a former kids' ministry leader, I would kind of want the pastor to be, you know, part of the skit, or you know, have to be the you know, center of the VBS, you know, program.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really not necessarily not necessary.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you know, I've worked with um uh pastors who do have that gift.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they were former camp counselors and and things like that, and they just love it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if that is you, if that is your pastor, I say go for it.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but let's not expect that.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we we still want them to be able to um be present, show presence.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love how you brought up um not just for the kids, but for the families and for the other leaders.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah um because, like you said, um some of our Sunday school teachers, small group leaders, are taking taking a step back from maybe being part of an adult discipleship class or uh small group, that kind of thing.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe they don't have as much FaceTime with the pastor.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So for you to be present for them, I think is really important too.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, other things that you have seen in this category done well that you can think of even back from childhood church or um other churches that you've been in where it just makes sense for the pastor to do this to get to know kids better.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, I think I think camp is one of those.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: Camp is an opportunity.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: You don't have to stay the whole week.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and um, you know, you don't even have to stay in the room full of stinky, sticky boys.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: But showing up, maybe spend the night, being present.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: Don't you know, you don't have to, again, speak or be in the spotlight, just be present.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh camp's one of those opportunities to be there when they're making their biggest decisions.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, vacation Bible school also, you know, largest outreach event of the year, being present, um, not just on you know the family night or on you know when it kicks off in the morning, but hanging out in the hallways, yeah, just being present.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um again, it's i for those of us who that doesn't come naturally.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: I've never really had an inner child.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'd love to meet him someday and a Mark Dance child.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: But um I I've I learned to enjoy children because they are so non-judgmental.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you know, you don't need to say things perfectly, do things they they don't care if your shirt's untucked or or tucked, or they don't care if you're in style, what shoes you wear.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: They just want to be loved.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: And they are they are forming their faith in a time where you'll probably never get to influence them so much.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: In that then in that season.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: You hope that those who left come back.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: You hope they get connected, but it probably, if they do come back, those who left, will be in another church, in another city.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah so if they're on your shift, they're in your family, they're your priority, and according to Jesus, they're your VIPs.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: And and so treat them like it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I told you, listeners, that we were gonna kind of reveal in our conversation why this is an important conversation for both of us.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So Mark and I actually grew up in the same home church, let's say, in our hometown, uh, Tyler, Texas.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Green Acres Baptist Church was a special part of both of our lives.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Our families were friends, and um, I think we're the product.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Here we are in full-time ministry in various ways, um, our whole lives in some capacity, uh is a product really of growing up in those years, those pivotal years, impressionable years, like you just said.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I can't help but think that Green Acres was a part of that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it was.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that was our our family, and we um, you know, a pastor's kid, a deacon's kid.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, this is not rocket science, these yeah, these uh uh, you know, the these same hallways and classrooms we shared with multiple generations.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_04: And and and it'll always be home for us.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it'll always be that place that benchmarks what a a church should be.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: We didn't know growing up that every church wasn't committed to the cooperative program and sending missionaries everywhere.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: We just thought that was normal.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, people getting saved all the time.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm kind of glad that we learned that.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: And now, you know, we can encourage, as you and I have spent a whole career encouraging others to uh just not give up.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: And yet also our family, like every church family, was imperfect.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: There's no perfect churches out there, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: And and so staying connected to that Green Acres family has been important to me over the years and still is today.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I remember um we always had a church directory.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of want to bring those back.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I do you ever see that in the churches you're working with?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: Actually, it doesn't come up much in conversations, but okay.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh recently, I think I was in Texas, I was in a church and I saw a a hard copy of a photograph uh church directory with everybody's pictures, names, numbers.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think we set phone numbers in there.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Phone numbers, yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember loving to sit at our kitchen table and look at the Green Acres church directory.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why I want to kind of bring them back because I got to learn faces and names, and then when I would see them, I would know them.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that's Mrs.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And my mom would say, you know, Miss Miss Smith.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she she's the lady in the nursery that, you know, or she's the same.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, my parents played that game all the time.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: All the time, all the time.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of where those influencer, those extra relationships come from, you know.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Green Acres is a very large church.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but I felt known by everybody.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's that that belonging is what, you know, kept me there.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I don't use the word uncle and aunt casually because I I do think that we we were raised by a group of people.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: Not just one family, but a group of families.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: And regardless of what size your church is, you know, you you have a kind of a ecosystem there that you influence, and the longer the pastor and his family's there, uh, the long the more it looks like you.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: And so if there's a cultural issue and you've been there more than three years, and you know, look in the mirror, right?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: And and so people in that family um they they walk through the valley of the shadow of death together, and they walk down the aisles of weddings and celebrate things, and um, those are important to our parents and our grandparents, but also our kids and our grandkids.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a it's a perspective that I think every church can embrace, but it starts with children.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: That's where the most influence is gonna happen year after year, than any other time.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um so please keep keep uh flipping the script.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's important that we you keep those relationships in front of us because those are intentional, biblical relationships that we need not just as children, but we'll need later on.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if you learn that as a child, then you're seeking that when you are able to choose your own church.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you're serving, you've had the model of, you know, our families served.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Our families served at church.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so you saw that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the model that you had to serve when you, you know, not everybody gives their life to full-time ministry, but we're all called to serve the local church.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so having a model to do that.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there's statistics that prove that as well about kids who grow up serving are more likely to stay and grow in their faith into adulthood.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So find ways for kids to serve.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like Green Acres did a really good job of um just naturally having opportunities to serve.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, again, I thought it was normal for everybody.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, by the time you graduate from high school at that church, you you probably have been on a mission trip.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_04: You've probably served in BBS, you've probably helped fill in or teach or or whatever your gift.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Be a camp counselor.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Camp counselor, music, yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: You and my sister both driving that big bus, yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: You know, to to uh day camp.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: And there's just uh a a number of things, but you're figuring out also in those years what you're not good at, which is just as important.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, my last experience in choir, here's another reveal.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: I've never shared publicly.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: But the last choir I was in, I was kicked out of.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: Really?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: I was in middle school, and it it it I was obviously being disruptive.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I'm I'm not allowed, I wasn't allowed kid, I'm not allowed adult, but I'm but you can be disruptive.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: I was uh yeah, I can, and I was, and I wasn't interested in music, so I'm gravitate towards that.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_04: And and yet they found that the one that used less words than anybody in my family, as you can attest, ends up being the guy that speaks the most.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I learned that at church though.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I learned it by teaching children when I was still a child.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: I remember serving with my mom in preschool, you know, and I I would watch her tell the Bible story and do the activities, and then it just came naturally for me to do as well, you know, following her as a as a guide.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so just having those opportunities to I mean, and that's really what led me to children's ministry, is is serving in children's ministry as a child, pretty much.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Alongside my mom and um and watching watching that example and so many other examples, not just her, so many other faithful, obedient.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_04: I just love your parents.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: Now that that's out of the bag.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: Plus, we're Howard Payne alum.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you're doing that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_04: So uh just so glad to be doing this with you.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not trying to wrap up.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just trying to say, yeah, you know, you are one of those sacred siblings.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: You are one of those people in my faith family, and we've kept up over the years because of the very things that we're teaching other people to do, we we've experienced that.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've got to make it to the next main session, don't we?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: We do.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to talk really quickly about a um your newest book.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: You are an author, and uh the newest book that you have um is rest well, lead well about Sabbath.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it's is uh you know, it's the fourth commandments are uh about Sabbath and and rest, and and so uh it's a it's a fairly short book.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: I I read and write short books.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: We love that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and um you know uh encouraging pastors in particular, but Christians in general, uh how to get that work life balance is very pro-work.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_04: But then, you know, go is a big word for uh Southern Baptists and all Christians, and but stop is a big word, and Sabbath means stop.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: So um both uh or neither are negotiable.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_04: So it it's it's more about the stopping and um not just in the weekly rhythm, but also Sabbathing every day.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_04: You walk with the Lord and uh some other creative things.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it's uh definitely um for driven people like us, we need a little reminder sometimes.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely practice self-care.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: One one key statement that stood out to me is that Sabbath is more about trust than time management.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by that?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it takes a lot of faith to stop.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: Because if I'm if I'm leading a ministry like it all depends on me, then I'm gonna go at it seven days a week.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm gonna talk myself and others into convincing myself that I need to be there for everybody.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: And uh we need to remember what John the Baptist said a few times.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: I am not the Christ.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so if we're the hero of our ministry, we've gotten things backwards.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so to stop, which can mean going into airplane mode, which I'm on right now, it means that you know, if the world falls apart during the making of this podcast, yeah, that's not on me.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm not the Christ.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not in control.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: I d I'm not.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that is such a great uh reminder and encouragement for for pastors, which I know is is mainly who the book is for, but um for listeners, that's for us too, is to remember that we have to take those intentional times of Sabbath and really not let it be a pride thing where we are trusting that everything that the Lord's got it, even when we're gone.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And when we say that we can't take that break, it's almost kind of a pride thing that says, I must keep going.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_04: The fourth commandment's uh it's it's a pretty clear cease and desist order.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh and initially uh came with the death penalty.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's off the table now.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: But um it's yeah, it's it's a serious command, but it's also a gift.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: This is a loving father trying to help us um, you know, lead our own lives in our own ministries in a way that we can we can finish strong.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so this is to protect us and to help us and to bless us, not to restrict us.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a good place to pause, close um with that encouragement.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Mark, would you pray over our audience?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Would you mind doing that?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: Father, thank you so much for each person listening.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_04: For for those in ministry, formal, informal, paid, unpaid.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: We thank you for the privilege of the sacred task.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: We ask, Lord, that you'd bless children in our ministries through us.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: We know they will reciprocate.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: We pray that we'd be faithful stewards of the people that you put in our flock and in our influence.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: We love you and we thank you.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: In Jesus' name, amen.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, listeners.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time on the Kids Ministry Calling Podcast.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: This episode of Kids Ministry Calling Podcast was brought to you by our amazing team, including executive producer Ang Elkins, producer Nikki Upton, edited by Trey Garza, and recorded in the Lifeweight Podcast studio in Brentwood, Tennessee, with Sound Engineer Donnie Gordon, and artwork by Cameron Wilson.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm your host, Jana McGruder.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Kids Ministry Calling.