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The Fantastic Miss Piggy Podcast - Episode 4: The Night is Young · Muppet Fan Podcasts with ToughPigs.com

0:00
There are people in this world, and I hate to bring this up, but
0:04
there are people who don't like Miss Piggy because they think
0:06
that she's physically and emotionally abusive to a frog
0:09
puppet. According to this reading of The
0:11
Muppet Show, Miss Piggy sexually harasses her boss.
0:13
She gaslights him into believing they're in a romantic
0:15
relationship, She makes him live in constant fear of physical
0:18
harm, and in general, she does not leave the lizard alone.
0:22
This is not my reading, and I'll tell you why.
0:25
Miss Pickey is a mythological trickster figure like Loki or
0:28
Rayner the Fox or Groucho Marx. And what tricksters do is they
0:32
live on the outside edges of the culture, and they do stuff that
0:34
people aren't supposed to do. Bugs Bunny tricks Yosemite Sam
0:38
into blowing himself up. Lucy pulls the football away
0:41
from Charlie Brown. You're not supposed to imitate
0:43
those things. They're fables about the
0:45
frustration of powerlessness and taking that frustration and
0:48
turning it into power. And we shouldn't throw those
0:51
stories away. We need those.
0:53
The Trickster takes our world and disrupts it, turning it
0:55
upside down and enabling us to see it in a different way.
0:59
And today on the podcast, we're going to talk about how Miss
1:01
Piggy left them up at theater and invented new forms of
1:04
personal expression that upended the traditional power structure.
1:07
And she did it out in the real world, in front of a whole bunch
1:10
of people. I can't give you anything but
1:15
love, baby. That's the only thing I've
1:22
plenty of, baby. Kissy, kissy and welcome to
1:27
another episode of the fantastic Miss Piggy podcast.
1:30
I'm Danny Horn and this podcast chronicles my journey to learn
1:33
everything there is to know about that divine swine, the
1:36
incomparable Miss Piggy. Today on the show we are talking
1:39
about some of Miss Piggy's earliest appearances on other
1:41
people's television shows in 1977 and 1978, which I think
1:46
define who this character is going to be when she's out in
1:49
the world. And joining me to talk about
1:51
this fascinating subject is the utterly superb Becca Petunia
1:55
from the gorgeous Muppet fan site Tough Pigs and the
1:57
delightful Muppet quiz Show podcast Hubba Wah.
2:00
Becca, welcome to the show. Hi, Danny.
2:02
Thanks for having me. Oh, I'm so happy to have you
2:05
here. It's it's a pleasure.
2:06
You know, there's nothing I love more than talking about Muppets.
2:10
You want to tell me a little bit about Hubba Wah?
2:13
Sure. So will I write for Tough Pigs
2:15
and do other stuff for tough pigs as well.
2:17
And I'm sure you'll have mentioned what Tough Pigs is by
2:20
then. I mean, also, isn't this, yeah,
2:24
everybody knows, but Hubblewa is a podcast I host for Tough Pigs.
2:30
It's a Muppet quiz show. I ask guests questions,
2:35
difficult trivia questions about different Muppet productions
2:38
from throughout history, and everybody just has a good time
2:42
answering questions, talking about trivia and winning
2:45
fabulous prizes, and to see who's this week's toughest pig.
2:52
And it's very funny. I've been on the show a couple
2:54
of times and and have really loved it.
2:57
Well, thank you. I always love having you, Danny.
3:00
Here at the top of the show, I'd like to take a minute to say
3:02
nice things about Miss Piggy. I feel like every podcast should
3:05
do this. It's surprising, actually, how
3:07
rare it is on podcast to say like, hey, let's start out by
3:09
saying nice things about Miss Piggy.
3:12
If Serial started that way, do you do you think they would have
3:15
figured out if Adnan was guilty or not sooner?
3:18
I I would. I think it would only be the
3:20
polite thing to do, really, considering her preeminence in
3:23
popular culture. Like for love it, love it or
3:25
leave it. They're like, so let's just
3:27
start out, let's take a minute. So, Becca, can you tell me one
3:32
of the ways that Miss Piggy has made your life better and
3:35
happier? Miss Piggy has made my life
3:37
better and happier by being seriously an incredibly an
3:42
incredibly wonderful, funny and talented force for for for joy
3:50
on the TV and movie screen. I I mean literally Frank Oz as
3:56
Miss Piggy, especially in these early days, which I know is what
4:00
we're gonna be talking about today.
4:02
It's some of the most brilliant, brilliant comedy and it really
4:07
does inspire me to think about just sort of the way to set up a
4:12
joke and A and a theme and and the way to sort of create a a
4:19
character that can change on a dime and all of these different
4:24
things. And you know, I think that we
4:28
could all stand to learn a little bit from Miss Piggy in
4:33
that way. I wasn't sure whether to like
4:35
send that along 1st and I. Yeah, I hope I I hope I did.
4:39
OK, that was perfect. You were perfect.
4:41
And now, because you know, I have complicated feelings about
4:44
Miss Piggy. And the complicated feelings are
4:49
are tied into the fact that I think Miss Piggy is a an amazing
4:55
character in the 70s and the early 80s who has completely not
5:03
figured out what it looks like to be a character in the 90s and
5:09
the odds and the 20 tens and the twenty 20s.
5:13
Especially what it is to be a character when Frank Oz wants to
5:17
be doing other things that aren't Miss Piggy.
5:21
And I think that it it really leads to this weird situation
5:26
where I want to love Piggy more than I often do.
5:32
And then whenever I watch a 70s thing like you had me doing or
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an early 80s thing like you had me doing, I'm like, Oh no, I do
5:40
love Miss Piggy. Oh no, Miss Piggy is wonderful.
5:44
I love Miss Piggy. And then, you know, you start to
5:48
think about like Muppets now or even like Muppets Tonight and
5:51
it's like, I don't well, Miss Piggy, I don't love Miss Piggy.
5:58
So I need to get in the right mindset and I'm so glad that you
6:02
you shared these clips that help me stay in the right mindset and
6:06
the mindset of Miss Piggy is. Really phenomenal.
6:10
Well, it is OK. That's super interesting to
6:13
know. It is actually OK for you to
6:16
express complicated feelings about Miss Piggy just because I
6:19
start out by insisting that everybody talk about how great
6:21
she is. It is OK to to to make.
6:25
In fact, that is what I'm looking for is to make this more
6:27
complicated. I think any great artist like
6:31
Miss Piggy, any great artist has had their career ups and downs.
6:36
And, you know, you can't name a single performer who who hits
6:41
home runs all the time. And so, yes, I do think Miss
6:45
Piggy's early work is better. I feel very similarly about Miss
6:49
Piggy as I do to Elvis Costello in that I really prefer those
6:53
first couple of albums and then I get kind of tired of him.
6:58
So in a way, Miss Piggy is exactly the same as Elvis
7:02
Costello. I'm an Elvis Costello figure for
7:04
you. All right, let's explore this.
7:08
Today, we're going to talk about some of Piggy's earliest
7:10
appearances on talk shows and variety shows, and we're doing
7:13
that because I think it's essential for understanding how
7:15
this character developed and what she brings to our culture
7:19
so far. On the podcast, we talked about
7:20
the first season of The Muppet Show and Pigs in Space in the
7:22
second season as the show was defining her character.
7:26
But it's here in the special appearances where she goes
7:28
outside the specific context of the Muppet Theatre and starts
7:31
interacting with the real world is that she's a real person.
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As, like I said, like when we're familiar with, you know, all of
7:38
the later appearances and later work than Miss Picky has done,
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she's always appearing sort of on her own.
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But in a couple of these, she's appearing on stage with the
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puppeteer sitting in the room with her.
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In 1974 and 75, Jim Henson sort of pioneered this.
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He appeared several times on The Tonight Show where he would sit
7:56
on the couch and talk to Johnny Carson and then he'd also have a
7:59
puppet on his arm like Kermit or Doctor Keith.
8:02
And both Henson and the puppet would have a conversation with
8:05
the host. And this is something special
8:08
that The Muppets can do, which is not really available to other
8:11
make believe characters. Like if you imagine like a
8:14
sitcom, you can imagine Archie Bunker comes, you know, Carroll
8:17
O'Connor comes and sits down on the couch and like and he's
8:19
going to talk as if he is the character.
8:22
Now, the actual earliest appearances that I know about,
8:24
unfortunately, I don't have the the first ones are Kermit, Miss
8:28
Piggy. They appeared on the Today Show
8:29
talking to Gene Shalit in August 1977 and again in September
8:33
1977. Those are Piggy's earliest
8:35
appearances that I know about, and if anybody has them, I would
8:38
love to see them. This is my this is my
8:40
manifesting that in the world. But right after that, on
8:44
September 22nd 1977, Jim Henson and Frank Oz appear on the
8:48
Russell Hardy Show in the UK. Russell Hardy is an interesting
8:52
chap. He was an interviewer who burned
8:54
very brightly for about 15 years on ITV.
8:58
He was involved with a couple of award-winning documentaries and
9:00
then he got his own show on ITV in 1972.
9:03
And that is where we find him. He he.
9:05
What he does on his show is he does lengthy interviews with big
9:07
stars and by this point The Muppets are definitely big
9:11
stars. It's after the first season.
9:14
It's so September 1977, first season of The Muppet Show has
9:17
aired in the UK was an enormous success at this point.
9:20
They've taped the first half of the second season, but the
9:22
viewers haven't seen the second season yet.
9:24
That's going to premiere next week.
9:27
Like a do you have, like a general impression of this
9:28
Russell Hardy appearance? Oh, it's First of all, it's
9:31
terrific. Like, I know nothing about
9:33
Russell Hardy beyond these appearances.
9:35
He's really funny. And I I think that he's a
9:37
charming A charming interviewer. And you know, I I get why he was
9:41
so popular. But you know, I also get why
9:45
Hermit and Miss Piggy are very popular.
9:47
I don't, I don't know if if you know this, but they're very,
9:52
very funny in this they. Are very funny.
9:54
What's interesting to me is the idea, like you said, that this
9:58
appears before season 2 premiered.
10:02
Because again, as a as a student of Muppet history, it really is
10:07
remarkable how quickly Miss Piggy sort of rose to this
10:13
superstar level. Because boy, at the beginning of
10:18
season one, she really, I wouldn't call her nothing and
10:22
certainly she wouldn't like me to call her that.
10:25
And she's got eyes and ears everywhere, but she's just part.
10:30
Of the background, Really. But she's she's more of a
10:33
background character. I mean, I feel like there's as
10:37
many Hilda plot lines in season one as there are Miss Piggy plot
10:43
lines in season one. And yet, there's something about
10:47
her that really is, like, definitely exciting to to
10:54
audiences. And you hear it.
10:57
You hear people in the audience cheer when Miss Piggy appears.
11:01
People really respond to Miss Piggy.
11:05
One of the things that I've noticed.
11:07
And you know what? I don't know if you want to
11:08
like, go through play by play. What happens in this before I
11:11
get into my my deep thoughts on this?
11:14
Let's let's do some play by play.
11:16
OK, so the way that the appearance works is that first,
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it's Jim Henson and Frank Oz talking to Russell Hardy about
11:23
the show before they bring any puppets up, and Frank Oz starts
11:28
messing around right away. One of the early things that
11:32
happens is Russell is asking about how much fun they have on
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The Muppet Show on the Muppet Show set.
11:39
One of the associate things that you do, both of you do is
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actually make everybody else who's working with you enjoy.
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There is hoots of laughter and screams of laughter in the
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studio. Is that not very off putting for
11:48
what is considered to be a high professional engagement?
11:51
It's a great. Fallacy.
11:51
No one really has any fun on our show.
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I just want to. I just think it's time we we
11:57
accept this as the truth. Jim and I really don't like each
12:01
other. You've worked together for 1417
12:04
years 14. 40 He's getting on my nerves.
12:07
All right. And he chose tonight to make
12:09
this public indeed. It had to happen sometimes.
12:11
I sorry you had to be involved. Russell's asking these long
12:17
winded questions with a lot of synonyms and sub clauses and he
12:20
says what kind of discussion are we having now?
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And Frank says dull, which just like cracks everybody up and
12:27
everyone gets into it and then they're all sort of playing on
12:30
how dull this appearance is. Which is such a Miss Piggy joke
12:33
already, and and Miss Piggy will play, you can tell at that
12:38
moment. Frank figured out a comedic in
12:41
on this this interview show, and when he brings out Piggy shortly
12:45
after he rolls with that, sort of like targeting synonyms and
12:52
overblown words and when people say things that are more long
12:57
winded than they should be as kind of like one of Piggy's
13:00
dominant jokes of this appearance.
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And that's, yeah, Frank is, he is there to call everyone out.
13:09
Basically. Frank just hates being bored and
13:12
he will do almost anything to stir up trouble and make
13:15
something happen. Jim brings Kermit up and Frank
13:19
brings up Fozzie. They do a real good job with the
13:21
cameras of when the puppets are up, they just have the puppets
13:24
in the frame and they cut out Jim and Frank.
13:26
So it's just now at this point it's like just Kermit and
13:28
Russell and Fozzie. Do you have any thoughts on the
13:31
on the Kermit Fozzie? Well, I think it's interesting.
13:34
You know we we do see and this is not the the fantastic Fozzie
13:38
Bear podcast or hey you can podcast as funnily as Fozzie
13:44
Bear. That's a good name for a Fozzie
13:47
Bear history podcast. Anyone's free to take that.
13:51
But it's interesting to see the way that the the Kermit Fozzzie
13:55
relationship has kind of evolved.
13:57
Because there is this this conversation here of like, you
14:02
know, if you're moving on to season two of The Muppet Show,
14:05
Kermit, why didn't you fire Fozzie?
14:08
Right. Have you?
14:09
Have you thought about getting rid of him and finding somebody
14:11
new? Well, it is a more or less
14:17
embarrassing question, but actually Fozzie will be with us
14:20
this coming season. We'll be happy to hear that.
14:29
Thank you. Fuzzy Fuzzy's going to be with
14:30
us. I did.
14:32
During the interim in between these two seasons, I did wander
14:34
around and I did interview various and sundry.
14:37
I auditioned a lot of comedians. I had I I auditioned a a
14:43
Wolverine, for instance. What does The Wolverine look
14:45
like? All he was a sort.
14:46
Of that Was he funny? He was.
14:49
He was hilarious. Oh, this was one of the
14:51
funniest. You did a stand up Wolverine
14:53
joke? Why?
14:54
Why? Why didn't you hide The
14:55
Wolverine? Well, actually, the truth of it
14:58
was he wouldn't work for the kind of money we pay you.
15:04
I do feel like post Muppet movie, it would be hard to have
15:12
Kermit be this this dismissive of Fozzie Bear.
15:18
And I think, I think there was definitely this sense, you know,
15:24
of of early Fozzie being a little more like obsequious to a
15:29
boss as opposed to obsequious to a friend that you kind of see in
15:34
the second-half of The Muppet Show and in the current day.
15:39
I think it is important, and this is not hey, you can podcast
15:43
as funnily as Fozzie Bear, but you you see a little bit too
15:48
where like I think modern Fozzie is kind of lacking in the
15:53
humility that we see Fozzie displaying here where this this
15:58
where. He actually thinks that he is a
15:59
big star ultimately if you if you talk to him now.
16:03
Yeah, and it's like, oh, these jokes are so funny.
16:06
And it's like, well, no, they're not.
16:08
And like, this is kind of like, Fozzie knows that he's on thin
16:12
ice. Yeah, And he, he just wants to
16:14
be loved. But he knows he's on thin ice.
16:18
And I think that makes him a lot less annoying here and a lot
16:22
more likeable here. But again, I'm not here to give
16:25
my hot Fozzie Bear takes. But this is sort of it's it's
16:29
early for all of these characters kind of taking these
16:31
relationships out on the road and and Kermit actually like
16:34
interacting with Fozzie outside the show and Russell, is this a
16:39
thing that I just really like about his approach?
16:41
He is going to stir the pot. He has questions specifically
16:45
designed to upset them. So he asks Kermit, have you
16:47
thought about getting rid of Fozzie?
16:49
And he also asked Kermit if he's jealous of Robin's hit record.
16:52
Yes, yes, I forgot about that because I didn't write it down
16:56
because this wasn't. The Robin Podcast The The
16:59
Halfway Halfway Down the Stairs. A Robin podcast.
17:02
Yeah. So he asks Kermit if he will
17:07
answer a very private and a very personal question.
17:11
And the way he says it is a little strange.
17:13
Get down to. It how how?
17:16
Difficult. Is it?
17:17
Just spit it out. How?
17:18
Difficult is it for you to contain or take on board in your
17:22
in your new series Miss Miss Piggy.
17:24
How difficult is it for you to contain or take on board in your
17:27
new series, Miss Piggy? I had no idea what that means.
17:31
And Danny, Danny, I'm an English major.
17:36
I have a master's degree from Columbia University.
17:40
I had no idea what that meant. He was a very famous interviewer
17:44
in the UK, despite the fact that I will pull out several sound
17:49
clips from this where he's speaking in a very odd way.
17:54
Is it that I'm not British? Is it that I didn't raise?
17:57
No, I don't know. In New York City, 1977 in the UK
18:02
was just a different world from the one that you and I live in.
18:06
So Piggy comes up. One thing that I think is
18:07
interesting here is she comes up and and she says kissy, kissy to
18:12
everybody as she as she kind of comes on stage kissy.
18:19
Kissy. Kissy.
18:20
Hello Miss Piggy. How are you?
18:21
Very well. How are you?
18:22
I'm. Just.
18:23
Fine, I was just. I believe this is actually the
18:26
first time that Piggy uses kissy kissy to say both hello and
18:29
goodbye. Is this?
18:31
The first time she says kissy, kissy.
18:33
She says it on season one. She uses it like a couple of
18:37
times as a term of endearment. And in in season 2 she says
18:41
kissy kissy to the audience when they're applauding.
18:44
And she says kissy kissy is as she leaves.
18:46
This is the first time I believe, and I would love it if
18:49
people can prove me wrong, but I believe this is the first time
18:52
that it's used like Aloha or Shalom.
18:55
But there is an actual live audience here applauding for
18:58
her, and Frank wants that audience to have a good time.
19:02
So here's where they're going to act out sort of the general
19:04
all-purpose frog and pig interaction.
19:07
This is again, really like the first time that they're going to
19:09
do a bit that will last them for until the rest of time.
19:15
Actually, it would be very nice if you would not ask about our
19:18
personal relationship. There's there's no relationship
19:20
between US and I would prefer not to answer any questions
19:24
regarding our relationship. But you just about 3 minutes a
19:27
little before, Miss Piggy, I said that you would.
19:29
And now you're you're turning in the other direction.
19:31
Russell. Yes, Miss Piggy.
19:33
Protests too much? There's nothing between us.
19:39
There's nothing between us. Anything that you see on
19:42
television as I talked to her, that is our entire in
19:45
relationship and nothing else happens and not.
19:48
When the theater door is closed. Not when it's all over.
19:50
Nothing else. I think you're asking a lot of
19:53
us to to ask us to believe. Deeply, Deeply, shy.
19:58
Deeply, Deeply wants me. We know.
20:05
Don't the girls. What a what a like get the crowd
20:11
going live to to specifically call out the girls.
20:15
That always, always works in a live appearance.
20:19
You are always going. To get he's going for the A.
20:22
Solid half of the audience screaming when you say that.
20:26
And what I think is funny is that Kermit is kind of when he
20:29
says anything you see on television, that is our entire
20:31
relationship. He's basically saying, yo, I'm a
20:35
fictional character, I'm on a television show.
20:39
This is not a thing that people usually say to you, but he's
20:42
saying I'm a fictional character.
20:43
And there is. And Russell is asking, like, not
20:47
even when the theater door is closed, not when it's all over.
20:50
Because Russell believes in The Muppets more than Muppets do,
20:52
apparently. Kermit might as well say I go
20:56
into a. Duffel I'm a I'm a puppet.
20:58
You get that right. But Piggy really is is then kind
21:03
of inventing this entire off screen life that happens when
21:06
the theater doors close. Like that is I think a very
21:08
important thing that Piggy does is that she fantasizes her own
21:12
off screen storyline that I think kind of actually gives The
21:16
Muppets that that broader sense of reality.
21:20
Well, I mean, listen not to like, you know, not to, not to
21:24
psychoanalyze, you know? Please do that.
21:28
These these famous puppeteers. But like, is it in I?
21:32
Yes. It's in The Wisdom of Big Bird,
21:36
the Carole Spinney memoir that Carole recounts a a story where
21:42
he had met Jim Henson and like, Jim was performing with Ernie
21:47
and then kind of just threw Ernie on the ground and like
21:50
kind of like kicked him and kept walking.
21:53
And Carol picked up Ernie and like apologized to him.
21:56
And Jim was like. Carol, they're.
21:59
Just tools. They're they're tools that help
22:03
us perform, but they're not. They're not people.
22:06
They're not people. And I think, you know, even if
22:10
you go all the way back, like where where Jim, Jim saw
22:14
puppetry sort of as a means to an end.
22:16
And look, Jim was a deeply talented puppeteer.
22:20
And it's funny, I was talking to a friend of mine.
22:24
I was talking to to a friend of mine.
22:26
Staff sheer puppeteer, staff sheer about this.
22:29
And I truly believe we were both talking about this, that Jim
22:32
really did love puppetry, even if he often would say in
22:37
interviews that it was just a means to an end.
22:39
But I do think that there wasn't as much in the way of Jim Henson
22:44
thinking about like, well, what does Kermit do when the when the
22:47
show is over. Whereas Frank was so much.
22:50
And I'm sure you'll explore this on the podcast with so much
22:53
about like, what is Miss Piggy's deal, where did she come from?
22:58
And like what? What are her aspirations and her
23:02
goals? Whereas Kermit very much.
23:06
There never really was a sense of that beyond, you know,
23:11
there'd be some swamp related jokes, but you couldn't quite
23:16
pin down this. Like, what does Kermit?
23:20
Yeah, the same way. And certainly that's one of
23:23
even, you know, and if you listen to the Tough Pigs Podcast
23:26
moving right along, specifically the Muppet Movie season, it
23:30
feels like that was something that they almost struggled with
23:32
when writing the script of The Muppet Movie was like, what does
23:35
Kermit want out of going to Hollywood?
23:39
And in the original script it was, you know, like making lots
23:42
of money and being rich and famous and made a rewrite.
23:47
They changed it to making people happy, which I I I think is the
23:51
right move. But it feels like if this was
23:54
about Miss Piggy, Frank would have a much more definite answer
23:57
and wouldn't have needed to even get to a second draft.
24:01
Like, because it really, because it really would have been all
24:03
about just like, no, she actually just wants to be
24:05
famous. Yeah.
24:07
She wants everyone to love her. But but Frank knows this
24:09
character and Frank does think about what does she do when she
24:13
is not on stage at the Muppet Theatre.
24:17
And something that I think is so interesting is not only that
24:20
that Frank is thinking about that, but that Miss Piggy has a
24:24
life outside the theater and also fantasizes a life that's
24:28
even beyond that. She's doing both of those things
24:31
at the same time. Rustless about Miss Piggy's trip
24:35
into space. They're promoting Pigs in Space
24:37
for a second for the second season.
24:39
And this is how the show is going to elevate Miss Piggy to a
24:42
more consistent role. Are you looking?
24:44
Forward to your. Your trip into space, because
24:47
you're going on the spacecraft, aren't you?
24:48
Yes, well that is my new role on the show.
24:52
What do you wear in the spacecraft?
24:54
Well, I wear a cute little number.
24:57
Yes, I wear this little kind of little.
25:01
The Lightning right in front of it and it shows off my best
25:04
features. Could you enumerate?
25:08
It has a very high collar though.
25:12
Could you could you enumerate your best features?
25:15
No, but I could tell you them. But are they?
25:19
Well, I'm deeply sensitive of. Course you are.
25:23
And I'm built. You had built it.
25:27
I know I you can see. Yes, right, right.
25:31
The way she says I'm built, I lost it.
25:34
This is my favorite. This is my favorite line.
25:37
Her delivery of and is so good. And I'll tell you, you know,
25:45
again, I was watching this here here at my desk.
25:48
And when she said that, I pulled out my headphones and I I called
25:52
my spouse over and I was like, you, you have to see this like
25:58
this is good. And let's talk about the gender
26:02
expression here, because this is kind of key to Piggy and her
26:06
appeal is is this assertion both of hyper femininity.
26:11
But then it's kind of like backed up with this deeper
26:13
masculine voice that comes through with the with I'm built.
26:17
Yeah, I mean, listen, there's there's nothing that I have more
26:20
deep feelings about than gender. And and I think it really is
26:24
interesting, you know the the idea of Miss Piggy as this kind
26:31
of drag performance and like honestly the longest running
26:35
drag character in in history and I would call Miss Piggy a drag
26:40
drag. Character because.
26:42
Miss Piggy is you know the thing about drag, right?
26:45
And and what makes what makes drag different than being a a
26:49
trans woman like I am is drag is about a a sort of like over the
26:55
top almost like parody of femininity.
26:59
And you can do drag and still also be able to care about
27:07
femininity on a more level day-to-day sense.
27:11
But like when I go about my day-to-day, I don't wear a
27:16
feather boa and purple gloves and I don't yell kissy kissy
27:21
every time I enter a room and and flirt with every man that I
27:26
see. I just go about my day normally.
27:30
You have things to do. I have.
27:31
Things to do. And you know, I like to remain
27:34
professional in the workplace, but Miss Piggy is a drag
27:39
character and we see this really fun way that that Frank Frank
27:44
plays with both the feminine side and the masculine side.
27:49
That again comes through from sort of like knowing that this
27:53
is a parody of femininity. And and knowing that this is,
27:59
this is like, Frank is not trying to play as much as he's
28:05
thinking about Miss Piggy as a real person.
28:07
He's also not trying to play Miss Piggy as a quote, UN quote,
28:10
real person. Just going about her day and
28:13
going to the office like I do, you know, like.
28:16
Yeah, like you say, she's a drag character rather than a female
28:19
character. Really.
28:20
That this is a performance of femininity.
28:22
One of the things that that really shone through as well and
28:27
one of the reasons why, like I was saying 70s Miss Piggy is
28:32
better than modern Miss Piggy. And there's so many reasons.
28:36
And let me be clear. Eric Jacobson, wonderful
28:39
performer, wonderful guy. Doing a different performance.
28:43
He's doing a different performance.
28:45
The Frank Ospiggy is more more my my cup of tea.
28:52
And honestly I bet Eric Jacobson would say the same thing if we
28:55
had him on the show right now. But I I truly feel like during
29:02
this era, and we see this with Russell Hardy, we see this with
29:05
Bob Hope. We see this with with Mr.
29:09
Parkinson. Miss Piggy was doing this drag
29:13
performance, this exaggerated femininity.
29:16
But any human being in the presence of Miss Piggy accepted
29:22
the show and instantly went in on the fiction, right?
29:27
There's no point where Russell Hardy says no, you're not built,
29:33
and no, you're not a a a sex object or any of those things.
29:39
Russell Hardy is in on the drag performance too, right?
29:44
Which is kind of, which is kind of the thing about drag as well
29:48
is like it requires the audience buy in as well, right during the
29:54
drag show you are believing in the the the sort of hyper
29:59
fictionalized sense of femininity that's present on
30:03
stage. That was the case here, right?
30:08
Russell is fully in on the joke, right?
30:11
Russell Russell gets this parody of femininity.
30:15
Russell gets that just as he wouldn't insult any other woman
30:20
on his show and and say that she wasn't attractive or anything
30:24
like that, he also can't do that to Piggy He.
30:28
He does, He does towards the end and we'll we'll get there.
30:31
He has, he has a couple moments 'cause he wants to set up the
30:34
karate chop. Yes.
30:36
Oh yeah. Which is the huge thing.
30:38
You you do, you do know what I'm saying?
30:40
I Absolutely. Do.
30:40
Yeah, No. But he is.
30:41
Yeah, he. But he absolutely addresses her
30:43
as the beautiful superstar that she is.
30:46
And that makes Miss Piggy funnier if she is in her own
30:52
sort of world and inviting us all to come into this world.
30:57
Even if it is so readily apparent that the femininity of
31:01
Miss Piggy is a a a over an over the top parody.
31:06
And not, not like a subtle realistic like, oh, this is this
31:11
is what Frank Oz thinks women are like, right again.
31:14
In this it may be that. Yes, but.
31:17
Also, in a way that that even he, I believe acknowledged was
31:23
an interesting view of women. So one thing that Piggy does is
31:27
they do a little bit around around Kermit being jealous.
31:30
You all make a very good couple over there.
31:32
I was just. Noticing Kermit Kermit.
31:39
Wait, why? Did you?
31:40
Why did you? Why didn't you leave the studio?
31:42
Why did I have to come here separately?
31:44
Why didn't you? I You said I.
31:47
You said that. What is it?
31:53
No, I was. I was riding in a little car and
31:55
I didn't have room, so it was OK.
31:58
Possibly you might be able to give her a ride home.
32:01
Would you like to give Piggy a ride home, You guys?
32:03
You two make a very lovely couple.
32:06
And the thing that I think is important is, is Piggy always
32:09
has a storyline that this is different from like when when
32:14
Frank was doing Fozzie earlier, she kind of Fozzie didn't really
32:17
have very much to do. He didn't have like a joke
32:19
prepared. He didn't have a story.
32:20
Miss Piggy creates these storylines all the time, and
32:23
just being Miss Piggy coming out on stage automatically has some
32:27
storylines built in. Frank recognizes the ways in
32:32
which Miss Piggy can poke at the seams of of a situation and
32:39
create interesting character and celebrity reactions, right?
32:46
He knows exactly. He knows that asking Kermit
32:50
about the car is going to lead to some, like, awkward shuffling
32:55
from Jim. And it's going to let you know,
32:59
going to help bring the conversation to new places about
33:03
jealousy and like, whether Kermit is a good partner or not
33:07
and all of these different things.
33:10
And again, like, look, I love Kermit and I Jim Henson is
33:12
incredible. But like, it truly is like an
33:15
improv scene where where Kermit is refusing to ever say yes, and
33:22
that is true. That's true.
33:24
He's really he his entire like, relationship with Miss Piggy.
33:29
In, out in public, like this, in these improv spots.
33:31
Yeah, he's really saying no every single time.
33:34
Correct. It's it's and we'll we'll see it
33:36
and honestly I think at its best and again because Jim Henson is
33:40
deeply talented at its at its best he is able to to wring some
33:45
laughs out of it. But at its worst, it it does
33:48
kind of feel, like I said, deeply uncomfortable.
33:51
Where it's like, it's like. Where he has to assert his his
33:55
fictionality. I think really what it comes
33:58
down to is Jim and Frank were such good comedy partners that
34:02
Jim knew that if if he kind of pulled back with Kermit, that
34:06
would give Frank more of a chance to shine, right?
34:10
That no one wants to hear Kermit talking about the relationship,
34:13
because Piggy is gonna be funnier talking about the
34:16
relationship. Right now I wanna talk a little
34:20
bit about the role of the karate chop because that is part of the
34:23
storyline. Which people really seem to
34:25
love. Like when we're talking about
34:27
what gets the biggest laughs and the biggest cheers from the
34:31
audience. In this is toward is the end of
34:33
this interview because Russell has a couple of of insulting
34:36
questions prepared. Yes, which does go against what
34:40
I was saying about Russell being in on the on the sort of drag
34:44
act he. Is he is in on it.
34:46
He just he he is driving towards a particular kind of resolution
34:50
that he wants here and that I believe he is correct that the
34:53
audience wants as well, correct. So the first question he kind of
34:57
goes back to the pigs in space. What about the precious of space
35:03
on pork? What?
35:05
What about the What about the pressures of space on pork?
35:11
What about the pressures of fists on flesh?
35:20
You're pushing your luck, kid. You can't stand too close, you
35:25
know. I mean, I think you really have
35:26
to be a little careful. I have one thing to say to you
35:28
finally, Miss Piggy, which is this.
35:31
Can I just enumerate some of the things you wouldn't do?
35:33
You can tell me. You're a very a very attractive
35:37
woman. Oh yes, it's a curse.
35:41
You're a very, not very well known woman.
35:45
I think it'll be safe to say to say that you are a mature woman.
35:49
Yeah, betcha. And you're obviously very well
35:52
groomed and you take great care of yourself and you quaff
35:55
yourself beautifully and frequently what went wrong.
36:08
At that point he gets the karate chop that he is so desperately
36:11
angling for. Yes, exactly.
36:14
It's one thing I should have told you this.
36:35
I'm sorry about that, really, you know.
36:45
This is the thing that people love to see is Miss Piggy
36:48
getting insulted and then karate chopping someone.
36:52
It is pivotal to her appeal. And I think that it is
36:55
interesting as far as the the queer kind of drag reading of
36:59
her, that what's what's being asserted there is that like you
37:05
can only insult the queer person for so long and then you will be
37:09
punished for it. Well, and again, as you know, as
37:13
a as a queer woman, I think we're very used to, I mean and
37:19
as a woman I think we're very used to sort of being insulted
37:25
and and kind of like being expected to be nice, right.
37:31
There's there's something about, like the way that women are kind
37:37
of raised to to be be kind of meek and not take up space and
37:44
and kind of like listen to men and like not make men upset and
37:49
all of these different things. And it's it's the kind of thing
37:56
where I think it's always very refreshing to women in
38:02
particular, although I know men find it funny, find Miss Piggy
38:07
funny too, but you know, I'm only able to to speak.
38:11
Well, I think I I think this does kind of speak to to me as
38:15
as a queer guy and and kind of what I appreciate her is, is is
38:19
exactly the same thing of like. Right and there.
38:21
Is you can get pushed only so far.
38:23
Correct. And again there is this
38:25
expectation of you know, again, not to not to speak to your
38:29
experiences as a as a queer guy, but like this, these
38:32
expectations of like you need to be the good, the good queer and
38:38
and the sense that it's like you can't rock the boat too much.
38:42
You know it's, it is, it is OK It is OK if you do this, but you
38:47
can't complain and you can't. You know when when people, when
38:52
people call you you know slurs, you're just supposed to keep
38:56
your head held high and and keep walking.
38:59
And we all do that, and we've all been in situations where
39:03
that has happened to us. But again, in the case of queer
39:09
people, that's certain. In the case of women, again,
39:12
that's certain. Whether it's being cat called
39:14
whether it's being you know talked down to and being
39:18
expected to just sort of stay stay calm and poised about it
39:23
right. And and miss Piggy does what we
39:26
all want to do in that situation.
39:29
We we all fantasize when we are expected to be be meek and we
39:34
are expected to kind of take a step back.
39:38
We all want to karate chop you know our boss.
39:42
We all want to karate chop the the creep at the bar.
39:47
We all want a karate chop, you know?
39:50
Yeah. Or like Republican politicians,
39:53
yes, we do. Oh we do in in Mother Steak
39:57
Manhattan as another kind of similar example where the the
40:00
workmen are are cat calling her as she's spying on Kernan Jenny
40:04
and she doesn't even react to them.
40:06
She just because she's feeling jealous, she grabs this big pole
40:08
and starts like banging and and she's clearly very strong and
40:12
very violent and the guys all kind of like back off.
40:16
Like, yeah, that is a fantasy that I think that we have of
40:18
like you can only push us so far and then you will see how
40:22
terrifying we are. But we're not allowed to do
40:25
that. And often it isn't like it
40:27
literally isn't safe to do that. You know, again, like as as a
40:33
trans woman, I need to be very, I need to be very careful about
40:37
how I'm how I'm perceived. And a lot of people are
40:43
inherently afraid of me and inherently expect me to be
40:48
strong and violent and all of these things.
40:51
And I'm not because even before I came out, I wasn't
40:56
particularly strong or violent or angry because, I mean, I was
41:01
always a trans woman. That's how this works.
41:04
But like the the the whole thing is like it isn't safe for me to
41:10
react with anger, but it is safe for Miss Piggy to react with
41:15
anger and she always wins when she reacts with anger.
41:20
There really isn't a time where like maybe once or twice if I
41:25
think about the entire history of The Muppets where she karate
41:28
chops and then she gets punished in some way.
41:33
There are no action. There are no consequences for
41:36
Miss Piggy doing this. Yeah, that, that.
41:39
And this is something I think that that people clearly really
41:42
want to see. It's something that that people
41:43
enjoy. And we're going to see that.
41:46
I think in every, every one of these, every one of these
41:49
appearances that we're talking about, there is that karate chop
41:52
moment. Because this is the thing kind
41:53
of when even when you leave them up a show and this kind of like
41:56
insult karate chop dynamic is something that people adore.
42:01
OK, so moving on to the Royal Variety Performance.
42:04
This is November 27th, 1977. The Muppets are in England.
42:08
They're currently filming season 2, and the audience has now seen
42:11
the beginning of season 2. We are.
42:13
Nine episodes in, I counted. Excellent.
42:17
And The Muppets have been they've been invited to be a
42:20
part of the Royal Variety Performance, which is an annual
42:22
variety show that the reigning monarch attends, in this case,
42:25
Queen Elizabeth the 2nd, and the proceeds go to a charity.
42:29
And this is a big deal for The Muppets.
42:32
Actually, this is a for a weird little weekly puppet show.
42:36
They go and perform a skit for the Queen of England, and then
42:39
they shake her hand. It reinforces just how popular
42:42
and beloved they've become in just a year and a half.
42:46
Well, and Piggy, I mean Piggy Fozzie kind of comments on that
42:49
too, right, where there's like you know he's he's so, so
42:53
embarrassed to be there. No, I'm not ready.
42:57
Kermit. Kermit, you don't understand.
43:00
This is the Palladium. I'm a bear.
43:03
I started out working in caves. Listen, Fuzzy.
43:08
Just just completely forget that there's royalty out here.
43:12
What? They're they're right behind
43:17
you. But don't turn around.
43:18
Totally guacamole. Oh, sweet jumping dogs.
43:25
What do I do? I think Fast Frog Pro Pro.
43:29
They're all dressed up for the occasion, which is adorable.
43:32
All the all the male Muppets have little tuxedos on which is
43:35
so cute and Piggy has a new dress which in season 2 that
43:40
that is kind of new for Piggy. She is just starting to branch
43:44
out out of that. Get out of that silver satin
43:46
dress I was. Going to say she had like one
43:48
outfit season one. I might be forgetting one thing,
43:51
but. Like, Nope, it was just that
43:52
satin silver and she is just starting to expand a little bit
43:55
in season 2, but in in this she's got a floral print on
43:58
black with a lavender feather boa.
44:00
She's going to wear this on the show in Season 3.
44:03
In a weird way, this like is very much like a a mini episode
44:07
of the show. So much so.
44:09
That. The song that they sang, We've
44:13
got We Got Us Right. This is the same audio that
44:17
would later go on one of the Muppet Show albums.
44:20
Yes, Yep. And this is the end of The
44:22
Muppet Show 2. And as soon as they started
44:24
singing it, I was like, oh, this makes sense.
44:27
Because that's where it comes from, yeah.
44:31
And so they create a Once again, Piggy is the storyline.
44:34
What's happening is that there's a bunch of characters kind of
44:37
come up one after the other. They can come on and say funny
44:40
things, but you can always count on Piggy to have a little plot
44:43
line for everything that she does.
44:45
She always brings like a little forward motion to the sketch.
44:48
Everything becomes more complicated.
44:49
Basically, when Piggy's around, that's one of her gifts.
44:53
So they're going to do the insult, karate, chop story
44:55
again. Kermit's on stage.
44:57
The other Muppets come in one at a time, and they tell Kermit a
45:01
pig joke. Notice them are funny.
45:03
None of them are funny. Kermit.
45:06
Kermit. Kermit.
45:08
A gonzo. That's not the way I heard it.
45:10
How did how did you hear it? Well, look it, I heard it like
45:13
this. What do you get when you cross a
45:15
pig with an important English official?
45:19
I don't know Gonzo, what do you get when you cross a pig with an
45:21
important English official? The lard Mayor of London.
45:31
Very good. So Fozzie comes up and Gonzo and
45:36
Scooter and Floyd. So all of the main puppeteers
45:38
get to have a little moment where they're they're telling a
45:41
joke to Kermit, and then Miss Piggy is on stage.
45:45
The expectation is that the audience will know that when
45:49
Miss Piggy shows up and sees that people are insulting her,
45:54
there will be trouble because she just kind of, like ominously
45:59
looms over The Muppets in the background, glaring at them with
46:04
no lines of dialogue. And you hear people in the
46:08
audience laughing and like, we've already gotten to a point,
46:13
you know, we were talking about the karate chop and we were
46:16
talking about the yelling and all of those things.
46:19
We've already gotten to a point that the the audience expects
46:23
that that will happen, that they know the bit and and it's
46:27
remarkable how quickly we got to that point considering you know
46:32
a year ago we were doing temptation, the Muppet Glee Club
46:36
like. Yeah, this came about very
46:38
quickly actually. They really haven't been on the
46:40
air that long. It's so funny to.
46:41
Nine episodes into season 2, she's not even in every episode
46:46
of season one. She's not even in the theme
46:49
song. Right.
46:51
And so she comes out and she confronts Kermit in the most
46:58
amazing way. She's sort of deploying her
46:59
femininity in a very threatening way.
47:12
Hello, Kimmy. Yes, Miss Piggy.
47:15
How is my little Kuny? Well, I'm fine.
47:18
I see my little Kuny is having fun.
47:21
Well, sure, we just. I'm glad my frog is enjoying
47:25
himself. Yeah, well, are you Are you
47:28
ready to sing our little warm and loving song now, Miss Piggy?
47:30
I certainly am my warm and loving song, yes.
47:33
Could I just ask you a kinky little question first?
47:38
Are you sure? What's that?
47:40
Why are you doing all the dumb pig jokes?
47:45
Well, I, well, you know, you know, we're just just a happy
47:51
having fun, you know? I have to have call me, call me
47:55
before we sing our song. Could I?
47:58
Could I tell you a joke? Oh, sure, yeah.
48:00
OK, oh, this is cute. What do you get when you cross a
48:06
frog with a fist? And she stomps on him and people
48:21
love it. That is the thing that makes
48:23
everyone crack up. And especially Kermit, kind of
48:26
like comes back up and he's all scrunched and flat.
48:30
And that, ultimately, is the thing that just makes the whole
48:35
sketch work for people. It's funny.
48:37
And again, it's it's what we all wish we could do to people who
48:40
are telling, you know, again, like in our case, gay jokes and
48:45
things like that. Like we all, we all wish we
48:48
could stomp. We can't.
48:52
And that is the dynamic that's that is going to be this
48:56
character's trademark basically for the rest of time, that the
48:59
insult is there just to give her the opportunity to karate chop
49:03
Kermit. And people are going to be kind
49:05
of like Russell Hardy did, specifically trying sometimes to
49:09
insult her specifically because they want the karate job.
49:14
And so let's talk about Happy Birthday, Bob.
49:17
And I was very upset when I clicked on this link and the Bob
49:21
in question wasn't Bob McGrath. I just.
49:23
I was in a Muppet mindset. A different website, but I was
49:27
in a Muppet. Well, same website.
49:29
I was in a Muppet mindset and and I just was like, I guess
49:33
it's for Bob McGrath and it wasn't.
49:35
It was for some other Bob. Yeah.
49:37
This is Bob Hope who used to be famous back in the day, back in
49:40
May 29th, 1978. He was very famous at the time.
49:44
It's about six months later. Everybody's seen season 2.
49:46
They're currently filming season three.
49:48
And this is the season three pig puppet.
49:50
The special is called Happy Birthday Bob.
49:52
It's in honor of legendary film and TV comedian Bob Hope on his
49:56
75th birthday. And it's a tribute.
49:59
And the idea behind the special is, you know, essentially Bob
50:04
Hope is old, He's 75, and we want him to know how much we
50:08
love him while we still, you know, while he's still here with
50:11
us. And The funny thing is, he did
50:14
not die. He had several of these.
50:16
They kept giving him tributes and he kept on living.
50:18
They did one for his 80th birthday in 1983.
50:21
Kermit was on that one, did another one in 1988.
50:25
In 1993 they did one called Bob Hope.
50:27
The 1st 90 years he lived to be 100 years old.
50:31
You know I. Bet he lived this long because
50:34
of these birthday celebrations. He's like, he's like I gotta, I
50:38
gotta keep going, I gotta stay healthy so I can have another
50:42
another star spangled birthday. So this is really just the
50:46
beginning of a 25 year long extended tribute to Bob Hope and
50:50
how great he is. Do you want to talk about
50:53
general impression on this on this appearance?
50:55
I liked it. Miss Piggy is so, so horny for
51:01
Bob Hope. She really is.
51:04
And it's so bizarre because like he's a 75 year old man and like
51:12
he looks it, I mean. He and just he looks like Bob
51:16
Hope. He was, yeah.
51:18
I don't know. He I can't even say that he was
51:20
like super handsome when he was younger, but like he was, he was
51:24
fine. That wasn't what he was famous
51:25
for. No, but Miss Piggy is doing
51:30
these ridiculous nicknames which are obviously always a thing
51:34
with her, like Kermy, but like a lot of Bob bobbies.
51:38
But also Roberto, which is so funny.
51:42
Yeah, she's so Bob Hope isn't. Kermit and Miss Piggy come out
51:46
and she immediately starts looking around for Bob Hope.
51:48
My Roberto, where is that hunk? And he's sitting up.
51:52
He's sitting up in the balcony. This is a tribute to him.
51:54
He's not on stage, so he's up there with his wife Dolores, and
51:57
Miss Piggy says oh. Wait, where was Bobby?
52:00
Bobby. Bobby.
52:01
Huh. My Bobby Hope.
52:03
My Roberto. Where is that hunk?
52:09
That. That hunk.
52:09
Oh, not come me. Don't you be generous.
52:13
You see, Bob and I have that special relationship that
52:18
happens only once, between a man and a pig.
52:28
I'm sorry, Dolores, but the truth had to come out.
52:32
Now that moment, I think, is fairly crucial to understanding
52:35
how Miss Piggy's comedy works. The fact that she's saying I'm
52:39
sorry, Dolores, because this is a joke that no one else could
52:41
do. Correct.
52:43
You could not have a female TV star come out on stage and even
52:45
pretend that she is having an affair with Bob Hope to the
52:49
extent of apologizing to his wife.
52:52
Like, even if it is just a joke like that would make people
52:55
uncomfortable. It would be a very, very bad
52:57
thing for somebody to do. Which is now going to be a
52:59
runner in the next two appearances that we talk about
53:03
after this one, where Miss Piggy takes a minute to address the
53:08
wife of the man that she's flirting with.
53:11
I'm sure we'll get into it when we talk about those, but like,
53:14
that's gonna be a runner. And again, this is what comes
53:18
from everybody being in on the drag act that this is.
53:24
This is a parody of femininity. And this parody allows everybody
53:32
to be in on the joke and allows Dolores Hope is Hope her last
53:37
name. I'm sure it was.
53:39
Great allows old Dolly hope to be in on the on the on the joke
53:45
and like. Well, it's there's so many
53:48
different layers of this fictionality, I'm just gonna.
53:50
I'm gonna enumerate them. Can you can you?
53:52
Can you list? Them I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell
53:54
you A she's a pig. A she's a puppet.
53:57
C She's a dude D. Kind of weird looking bald dude
54:02
with. Bald Mustache D He's 75 A she's
54:08
fictional. And then the thing that I that I
54:12
think is so interesting is that like even within that fiction we
54:15
know that Miss Piggy fantasizes relationships.
54:17
So that saying that she's having an affair with Bob Hope is like
54:21
here's a fictional character who is imagining and and pretending
54:25
that she has a relationship in order to be what more more
54:28
famous and more adored. So this is Miss Piggy as
54:32
trickster where she is creating an alternate world.
54:35
This is what tricksters do, is they create this alternate world
54:39
and sort of spin it out of thin air.
54:41
And then you invite people to believe in that world and enter
54:44
into it because it's funnier and more interesting than the real
54:47
world. And in her early years, like,
54:50
the world agreed with her and we all went and lived there.
54:55
And so when she says that she's a superstar, when she says that
54:58
she's a beautiful model, when she says she belongs on on the
55:00
cover of magazines and calendars, like everyone agreed
55:03
with her and went and lived in that space with her.
55:06
And that was the amazing thing we all did in the in the 1980s.
55:10
The joke is only funny if you say yes.
55:13
And the joke is the joke is not funny if Miss Piggy says I
55:20
belong on the cover of a magazine and you say to Miss
55:23
Piggy, no, you're the coffee pig.
55:27
The Barb barbed insults at A at A at another Muppet production
55:32
that you'll talk about one day. If it's like you are, I should
55:36
be the star of this TV show. No, you should get coffee.
55:40
Yeah, that is not funny. That's not funny.
55:42
You need to say Yes. The drag act is only funny if
55:48
during the show everyone accepts that this is what a beautiful
55:53
woman is. Yes.
55:55
Yeah. So the sketch is very funny.
55:58
It's it's Piggy trying to sing my secret love to Bob.
56:00
Hope So. Bob's up in the balcony, and so
56:02
she's singing it to Kermit and Kermit's kibitzing and telling
56:06
her she's doing it wrong and how embarrassing it is.
56:10
Hi, this is Bob. What am I doing here?
56:12
Hope and what? Seriously, a funny thing
56:15
happened on the way to the theater.
56:18
No Mr. Hope. Please, pig, I'm in the middle
56:20
of my monologue. Don't push it, frog.
56:26
Sorry. Oh.
56:27
We're there too. I have worshipped you from afar,
56:29
and tonight I worship you from a near.
56:33
From a. Whip A near.
56:36
You'll worship me from an ear. Yes, I do have ears.
56:41
I'll worship you in the hospital in a second.
56:46
And finally she gets insulted and she stomps him into the
56:48
ground, which is the typical insult karate chop moment that
56:53
is now becoming De Ruger. Next up, let's talk about that
56:58
Michael Parkinson interview. So it's November 18th, 1978.
57:02
Michael Parkinson was a legendary interviewer.
57:05
The show Parkinson, which this clip is from, it was on from
57:08
1971 to 1982. And then he had other shows.
57:11
By the end of his career, he estimated that he'd interviewed
57:14
more than 2000 celebrities. And this is actually
57:17
structurally, this is really similar to the Russell Hardy
57:20
interview that that was a year earlier that we talked about
57:22
where it's it's Jim and Frank coming on stage and they bring
57:25
up Kermit and they bring up Fozzie and they do a little
57:28
routine and then Piggy comes up. The thing that that makes this a
57:32
little different is that Parkinson takes this further as
57:36
far as his romantic interest in Piggy is concerned, where he
57:39
just comes out and straight up says that he is in love with
57:43
Miss Piggy. There is so much so, Kermit
57:47
again says there is no relationship between Miss Piggy
57:50
and myself, again refusing to yes and.
57:53
And some people think that we have a relationship, but I want
57:56
you to know that that is on the screen only and there's there's
57:59
nothing to that. There is, and I wish you
58:00
wouldn't refer to it anymore, please.
58:02
Oh, all right, then. Oh.
58:04
Yes, yes. Because there's there's really
58:06
nothing between us. Anything you may have heard
58:07
about us in hotel rooms or any of that stuff doesn't exist.
58:12
Well then, I mean, you won't mind.
58:13
And therefore, if I confess to you that I am madly in love with
58:17
her, I mean like the rest of the nation, I think she's totally
58:21
adorable. I think she's the most.
58:23
You're in big trouble. Sensational.
58:25
Why am I in big trouble? Well, I just.
58:28
You just wait and see. All right, well, I'm going to
58:30
make a special introduction, in fact, to Miss P because I think
58:33
she's so sensational. I mean the really most
58:34
beautiful, beautiful creature that I've ever set eyes.
58:37
And I really mean it. I am madly, madly.
58:40
Would you welcome Miss Piggy. He says that that Miss Piggy is
58:49
beautiful and sensational. Miss Piggy comes up and they
58:53
instantly go into like a physical relationship.
58:56
So she comes up and she says hi frog, and then Parkinson just
58:59
looks into her eyes and he sighs theatrically.
59:03
They are staring into each other's eyes from about a
59:06
centimeter and a half away, and this is a stare that would not
59:09
be possible for two people to maintain.
59:11
But because it is Miss Piggy, it is totally OK for Parkinson just
59:15
to be gazing into her eyes. Hello, Michael.
59:19
Hello. Hello.
59:21
How are you? Oh.
59:22
I'm well, I. Hi, Frog.
59:26
Good. Evening, Miss Piggy.
59:35
You you have such deep blue eyes.
59:37
Yes, and you have bedroom eyes. Let me see.
59:44
Well, the dining room eyes anyway.
59:48
I've been dying to meet you well.
59:50
Why I'm I'm so taken aback by this meeting.
59:55
Could I just ask you one deeply personal question?
59:57
Of course. Is that a dupe?
1:00:08
And then, along the same lines as as the apology to Dolores,
1:00:10
she asks is your wife here? And he says yes.
1:00:13
And Pinky just rolls with that, straight into another fantasy
1:00:16
world. Michael, is your is your wife
1:00:21
here? Well, actually, she she is Miss
1:00:23
Piggy. She's sitting in the audience.
1:00:25
I see. We're we're very good friends.
1:00:27
Who you are with my wife. We've talked about you.
1:00:34
I know some things about you. Like what?
1:00:39
Your legs. Legs.
1:00:44
You have great legs. He is doing yes and like crazy.
1:00:51
He's doing, yes, and to an insane degree.
1:00:55
Michael could be possibly, possibly.
1:01:00
I mean, I I don't know how to ask this.
1:01:05
Lift them up, kid. When she says to him, I don't
1:01:11
know how to ask this, but lift them up kid.
1:01:16
And he again, it's that same like dropping of the voice into
1:01:20
the masculine. And again, it's this, it's this
1:01:23
thing. And like I was saying earlier
1:01:25
about like like being being a trans woman, like there's this
1:01:31
fear of being perceived as predatory.
1:01:35
That is definitely something, and definitely something that
1:01:38
again, a lot of politicians, most of them on the right side
1:01:41
of the aisle, are really trying to like foster in today's
1:01:46
society this, this fear of that. But Miss Piggy is not afraid of
1:01:51
that right. Miss Piggy's voice drops into
1:01:54
the masculine right when she says that.
1:01:56
And she is, this is about as predatory as possible, right
1:02:01
where she's like lift em up, kid.
1:02:03
Like out of this context, out of this, that is something you
1:02:06
could never say in this context. You really shouldn't.
1:02:10
Yeah, no, you still can't. This is this is a this is a
1:02:13
television show. He rolls up his leg.
1:02:16
That is, it's just it's absolutely amazing.
1:02:18
You are on TV talking to an interviewer.
1:02:20
Imagine any other human or character or anything demanding
1:02:28
that Michael Parkinson roll up his pant leg and show her his
1:02:31
his leg. And he does a little bit of his
1:02:34
leg. Yeah, well, you get his knee and
1:02:36
then you get his his sock. I'd love to.
1:02:42
Would you? All right.
1:02:47
I have never in my life. Those are exquisite.
1:02:54
Would you like to touch them? Could I?
1:02:56
Yes. Thank you.
1:03:02
You have made a woman pig happy. Could I?
1:03:05
Could I in? Return.
1:03:06
Could I? Could I stroke your hair?
1:03:10
Don't stop there. It's also worth noting, like
1:03:16
Michael Parkinson is not like this isn't like she's on, you
1:03:21
know, the Pierce Brosnan talk show or.
1:03:24
Whatever he He's not like a super sexy like the, you know,
1:03:28
some guest stars on The Muppet Show.
1:03:30
Yeah. He's an ordinary looking, very
1:03:32
nice looking, but ordinary looking dude.
1:03:34
And an older man as well, Which is why it's particularly funny
1:03:38
that she calls him a kid, yes. What's it like being a sex
1:03:42
symbol? I would say it's a deep
1:03:45
responsibility to be to be a taste setter in fashion, to be a
1:03:51
sex symbol and a a pig superstar.
1:03:56
Fantastic. Yes, I feel I can weather up
1:03:58
under the storm. I have taste.
1:04:01
I have style. Yes, you have all that.
1:04:03
And I can cut it. And Parkinson asks.
1:04:09
So then this is continuing. Just the complete
1:04:11
inappropriateness of what is happening, he says.
1:04:14
You do tend to get a bit aggressive at times potentially.
1:04:17
Setting up the karate chop base, but Frank has other plans.
1:04:21
Frank has funnier and also more inappropriate plans, but funnier
1:04:27
plans. You do.
1:04:29
You tend to get a bit aggressive at times, I've noted.
1:04:31
I mean, you've got this very. Well, your wife told me you like
1:04:34
that. You.
1:04:43
You would have been talking to them.
1:04:47
Your wife told me you like that. Yeah.
1:04:51
What a line. It is.
1:04:53
It is one of the best things that's ever happened on
1:04:55
television. So by the end of the sketch,
1:04:57
Parkinson and Piggy are cuddled up together.
1:05:01
She's just kind of, like hanging on his shoulder.
1:05:04
Piggy says that Kermit's jealous and Parkinson's.
1:05:08
Is he jealous? Well, let's make him a little
1:05:10
bit more jealous. Let's sort of get together.
1:05:13
And she just kind of, like, settles on his shoulder.
1:05:16
Now there's another guy, it turns out, who is on the other
1:05:19
side of Henson and Kermit, who is a sidekick, I guess.
1:05:23
I don't know where. He's another guest.
1:05:24
I have no idea who he is and he says that there's a a little
1:05:29
song he knows, a little song about a frog and starts to sing
1:05:32
and it's essentially like Froggy goes according She came home at
1:05:41
last. Grincton, Balamichi, Quiro.
1:05:43
She saw old frog and laughed and laughed.
1:05:45
Rincton, Balamichi, Quiro, and A.
1:05:47
Lot of us, pretty soon. James D No, no, no, no.
1:05:57
I'm not going to marry the pig. And you can.
1:05:59
You can forget that part of the song about marrying a pig,
1:06:02
particularly tonight. Oh, will we bothering you?
1:06:05
No. No, of course not.
1:06:08
It doesn't bother. It doesn't bother me at all.
1:06:10
Got to Miss Piggy and Parkinson and they are just in an embrace.
1:06:14
What? Are.
1:06:16
They talking about? I don't know.
1:06:18
Don't they know that the night here is young and pigs and
1:06:22
interviewers have things to do? And they're just making out and
1:06:28
and he's about to like say thank you very much And she says, can
1:06:31
I just have a little Peck goodbye.
1:06:34
And she tries to find a good angle and there's a little
1:06:37
moment and she says, can you get the nose out of the way.
1:06:39
And so they find it. They find the the correct
1:06:42
position with him kind of piggy going to the other shoulder.
1:06:45
And so it just the interview ends with Miss Piggy making out
1:06:50
with the interviewer. Yeah.
1:06:51
That is a thing that happens and it is so beautiful that and
1:06:56
Parkinson 100% loves this and was hoping that this interview
1:07:01
would go in that direction. Oh yeah.
1:07:03
I mean like, listen, he he was setting it up.
1:07:06
Just imagine. Just imagine any other, any
1:07:10
other person, any other character.
1:07:13
This is what Miss Piggy brings to the universe is a character
1:07:15
who can do something like this that nobody else in the world
1:07:19
can do, which is which is to create new forms of personal
1:07:23
expression that make the world better and more interesting.
1:07:28
Where? Where Michael Parkinson gets to,
1:07:30
you know, tenderly kiss Frank Oz's.
1:07:34
Hands. Exactly.
1:07:37
And everyone loves it. I mean, I did.
1:07:40
Yeah, me too. All right, so kind of wrapping
1:07:45
this up and and thinking about all the things that we have that
1:07:48
we have discovered today. Becca, do you think that this
1:07:52
version of Miss Piggy has endured?
1:07:56
What? What I should say actually what
1:07:58
what has endured from from this version now?
1:08:02
OK, so I'm gonna interpret your question in two ways, which is
1:08:05
gonna give me an option to enumerate some of my feelings,
1:08:09
or at least list them, you know, So in terms of endured, in the
1:08:15
sense of, like, does this hold up?
1:08:19
I really do think that if I, I mean like, real talk, if I met
1:08:25
someone who did not know about Miss Piggy, and I wanted to
1:08:30
explain to that someone why Miss Piggy was funny, you could do a
1:08:35
lot worse than showing the Michael Parkinson clip, the
1:08:39
Russell Hardy clip, even the Bob Hope clip, the Royal Variety.
1:08:44
This is funny. And this is still funny.
1:08:49
And you see, Frank Oz's just pure raw talent.
1:08:54
You see again these weird, wonky gender roles that I'm still
1:08:59
super interested in. And honestly, I could talk even
1:09:02
more about if I, you know. If we feel like going there.
1:09:07
If we feel like going there. Yeah, there is.
1:09:09
There is more there, but. You know that absolutely endures
1:09:15
in the sense of, like, this does not feel like dated comedy, this
1:09:19
does not feel cringey or any of the things that we kids are
1:09:24
saying these days, right? But it should be.
1:09:27
That's actually that's such a good point that that really you
1:09:30
would think like this is sexual harassment, this is sexual
1:09:33
harassment, this is violence, this is like Miss Piggy sexually
1:09:37
harassing the people around her, but it does not feel cringy like
1:09:40
that it. Really.
1:09:40
Because because it is so clear within the sexual harassment
1:09:46
that everybody is in on the joke.
1:09:49
Not to, not to keep hammering this, this in, that's what we
1:09:53
see in all of these clips, right?
1:09:55
Like, this is less sexual harassment and more just like
1:09:59
Miss Piggy comes on real strong and stuffy British guys are into
1:10:03
it. They are.
1:10:04
They are here for that. I mean, there is something
1:10:06
that's very mid 70s specifically about these interviews, just
1:10:09
because she's so new that for both Russell Hardy and and
1:10:14
Michael Parkinson, they look at her kind of like this breathless
1:10:19
appreciation of her as a work of art.
1:10:23
I mean, and it it's a gorgeous puppet.
1:10:24
It's a. Gorgeous puppet, and they're
1:10:26
really enjoying just being there, looking straight into her
1:10:29
eyes of this, of this terrific puppet and just loving her so
1:10:33
much. But in terms of what has
1:10:35
endured, in terms of the character of Miss Piggy, I'm
1:10:40
very cynical about the modern state of Miss Piggy.
1:10:44
And I don't again, Eric Jacobson.
1:10:48
Wonderful, talented puppeteer. I've.
1:10:52
I've been fortunate enough to meet him on several occasions.
1:10:55
He's a wonderful guy. But tell.
1:10:59
Me about his piggy. I don't think his piggy is
1:11:01
particularly funny. I think his piggy is mostly
1:11:05
mean. And I think that nobody, nobody
1:11:09
around Miss Piggy likes Miss Piggy anymore, right?
1:11:14
Yeah. And I think that that is the big
1:11:17
difference here. Kermit is uncomfortable around
1:11:21
Miss Piggy because he's a bit ashamed to talk about his
1:11:25
relationship in public. But you don't get the sense that
1:11:29
Kermit resents that Miss Piggy is there.
1:11:32
And you certainly don't get the sense that Miss Piggy is being
1:11:37
again, being insulted excessively by the celebrity or
1:11:41
the interviewer, right, Who is, like intentionally making fat
1:11:46
jokes or whatever. You don't get the sense you you
1:11:50
get the sense that Miss Piggy says that she is the most
1:11:54
talented, beautiful star in the world and everybody is in on it.
1:11:58
Now with The Muppets, Miss Piggy says that, and she's a clown for
1:12:04
it. You know, I'm thinking about
1:12:06
lifestyle on Muppets now, one of the only segments to be at all
1:12:12
six episodes of Muppets now. And Miss Piggy is saying these
1:12:17
ludicrous things that are not true and everybody else is
1:12:23
expected to kind of cringe at it and be like Miss Piggy can't be
1:12:28
fit, or Miss Piggy can't be relaxed or Miss Piggy can't be,
1:12:34
you know, eating healthy. But I that isn't what's going on
1:12:40
here, right? That isn't what's going on here
1:12:43
for the 5 minutes of the interview, right?
1:12:47
We are in the world where Miss Piggy can be beautiful and can
1:12:51
be a sex icon and can be beloved by celebrities, and Bob Hope can
1:12:58
have a crush on her. And Bob Hope's wife can be OK
1:13:01
with it, because what a beautiful, open marriage.
1:13:05
That they have for whole past. Miss Piggy and and it's like
1:13:13
that makes it funnier to me and more positive than when the joke
1:13:20
is because it at home again like you said about the ABCDE list
1:13:25
earlier that I'm still thinking about where it's like a you
1:13:28
know, it's a fictional character.
1:13:30
We get the joke. We know it's Frank Oz.
1:13:34
We know that Frank Oz is a kind of weird looking man who sounds
1:13:39
like Bert as his normal speaking voice.
1:13:43
Right. But we for for these 10 minutes,
1:13:48
we love Miss Piggy and we think that she is sexy and funny and
1:13:53
that any any man would would do anything to be with her.
1:13:59
We know that. It's funny that we think that.
1:14:02
Right, exactly. There were it's it's these
1:14:04
levels of of fiction that are kind of rubbing together, and
1:14:07
that's what's funny about it. We know that it's funny, but in
1:14:12
the sort of modern, like lifestyle piggy that I'm
1:14:16
thinking about and I'm comparing this to.
1:14:18
And granted, Muppets now was notably worse than a lot of the
1:14:22
other Muppet stuff that's come out lately.
1:14:24
Yeah, unfortunately that is, that is not.
1:14:26
The but that is the. Show that we would want, but
1:14:28
yeah. Yeah, but like in that the joke
1:14:32
is literally like, there is no middle ground of like, well
1:14:36
right now Miss Piggy can be beautiful, but we know that
1:14:40
she's actually a pig. The joke just jumps straight
1:14:43
from I see Miss Piggy doing something.
1:14:46
I know that she's a pig. So it's funny, there is no
1:14:50
middle ground of us meeting her halfway and saying.
1:14:54
Like in the in the the 2015 Muppets show where nobody can
1:15:00
like her. Correct.
1:15:02
And I hate that too. And again, there is no meeting
1:15:05
her halfway. I know that I would not like
1:15:10
Miss Piggy if she and I were hanging out, right?
1:15:14
Like Miss Piggy is not the type of person who I want to hang out
1:15:19
with if she. Was a friend, yeah.
1:15:21
But for the minute that she, the minutes that she's on screen, I
1:15:28
am like you said brought into her world where in her world I
1:15:35
do think that she's a glamorous sex icon and you know and and I
1:15:40
want to show her my legs and I I I'm I'm glad that that she's
1:15:47
talked to my spouse about the things that I like.
1:15:50
But, but on Muppets 2015 or Muppets now, there isn't that
1:15:57
like phase of being in her world.
1:16:00
It's just the it's laughable that Miss Piggy is unlikable or
1:16:05
fat or loud or pushy. There's no sense of like, but
1:16:12
imagine you were in a world where that was actually the most
1:16:15
charming thing possible. There's there's no sense of that
1:16:21
and and I think that that requires again, everybody else
1:16:26
to be saying yes and to Miss Piggy, except maybe Kermit.
1:16:31
I think Kermit can get away without saying yes and I think
1:16:34
Floyd obviously doesn't. But I think everybody else, I
1:16:38
think all of the humans, I think all of the, you know, background
1:16:43
Muppets or whatever need to be saying yes.
1:16:47
Right now, Miss Piggy is the sexiest, most wonderful person
1:16:51
around. The the place where I think that
1:16:54
has that that sort of thread of Miss Piggy has survived is the
1:16:58
high fashion stuff that she's been doing since around like
1:17:02
2008 where she's wearing like Marc Jacobs clothes.
1:17:06
Yeah. And fashion designers definitely
1:17:08
still treat her as if she is the most Lammers pig, and they are
1:17:12
thrilled to design for her. So what I what I what you're
1:17:16
saying, and if I can just extrapolate a little bit what
1:17:19
you're saying is that gay people need to be more involved in
1:17:25
what's going on with. Miss Piggy, Yes, that is.
1:17:28
Exactly because I'm just. Extrapolating, you are
1:17:31
absolutely you are absolutely correct.
1:17:33
I am saying that that that queer people understand Miss Piggy on
1:17:38
a very deep level and need to be more involved.
1:17:41
I completely agree. Thank you so much for joining me
1:17:46
today. This has been, this has been
1:17:48
fantastic. Thank.
1:17:49
You, Danny, what a delight. I'm so.
1:17:51
I'm so glad we got to talk about this stuff.
1:17:53
I'm so glad that I I got to go deep on gender theory and comedy
1:17:58
theory and all of these different things with you.
1:18:00
These are my favorite things to talk about.
1:18:02
I'm so glad. Just exactly what I wanted to
1:18:04
hear from you. So yeah, Fantastic.
1:18:06
Thank you. Thank you.
1:18:09
Where can people find you and your work?
1:18:11
Well, it's a little confusing now because the internet's a
1:18:15
shambling corpse. The best place you can find me
1:18:18
is on Tough Pigs, where I do write articles and I podcast.
1:18:25
Hubba Wah is either finishing its third season, or has
1:18:30
finished, or will have finished, or will be finishing or soon
1:18:35
will be finishing depending on when this comes out.
1:18:37
But. One of the one of those options.
1:18:40
We had a five episode season three and then I took a mid
1:18:43
season hiatus to get married and now I am preparing the When
1:18:49
we're recording this, I'm preparing the great comeback.
1:18:52
We got some fun weird stuff coming up in the second-half of
1:18:55
the season. I can't wait for you guys to
1:18:57
hear it. I'm on social media.
1:19:00
Not as much as I used to be, because, again, social media is
1:19:04
a shambling corpse. But on Twitter, I am at Uncle
1:19:10
Petunio. So that's Uncle.
1:19:13
And then Petunio is like the flower, but with an O instead of
1:19:18
an A. And then I'm on literally every
1:19:20
other social media platform that isn't Twitter at tall girl
1:19:26
Petunia. All one word, and that time the
1:19:29
flower is spelled correctly. All right.
1:19:34
Kissy kissy. Thank you so much for listening
1:19:36
to this episode of the fantastic Miss Piggy podcast.
1:19:39
If you have comments or questions or you know stuff
1:19:41
about Miss Piggy that you would like to share, you can write to
1:19:44
me at fantasticmisspiggy@gmail.com.
1:19:47
That is fantastic. Miss Piggy at Gmail.
1:19:49
I'm on Twitter at Fantastic Miss P or on Blue Sky at Danny Horn,
1:19:55
dot B, Sky dot social. All right, thanks, everybody.
1:19:58
I'll see you next time. Gee, I'd like to see you looking
1:20:04
swell, baby. I'm a bracelet Woolworth doesn't
1:20:11
sell. Baby, till that lucky day.
1:20:17
You know that. Well, baby, I can't give you
1:20:24
anything but love.