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The ROAR Podcast: Nick Elam · The ROAR Podcast

• Nick Elam Intro: Picture a Division II gym in Philadelphia, summer of 2017. Maybe eight people in stands. And sitting courtside at the scorers table, a former high school math teacher watching an idea he'd chased for 10 years finally get played for real. The idea started in 2007 with a young teacher in Southwest Ohio asking me a simple question. Why does the name of a basketball game reward the teams for breaking the rules? Intentional fouls, stalling, shots that look like a broke the reel. What if you turn the clock off and play to a target score instead? He pitched it to roughly eighty commissioners, executives, and media members. Maybe five percent wrote back. He called what followed 10 years of tomorrow's. Then TBT said yes. Then the Canadian Elite Basketball League. And in January of 2020, his phone rang in an airport terminal. It was the NBA League office, and the players wanted to try it for the All-Star Game. Today, the Eliam ending lives in the G League, Unrivaled, the Women's College basketball All-Star Game, and countless grassroots leagues around the world. His name is Dr. Nick Elam. He's a professor. Of Educational Leadership at Ball State, holds a master's in sports administration with a focus in sports analytics for Northwestern, and he hosts his own show, The Sports Rules Pod. He also spent 21 seasons as a Cincinnati Reds ground crew and keeps stats for the Pacers in Fever. In this conversation with Adam, Nick talks through the rejections, the reinventions, and why the best rule changes aren't about changing the sport, the recalibration. A way to bring back the game fans actually love. And Adam makes the case that rules are more than the fine print. They shape the fan experience, ticket sales, and sponsorship value. I'm Bryce Clinton, and this is Aurora Podcast. Adam Grossman: Welcome to the Roar Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Grothsman. With me today is Nick Elam. Nick, welcome to the Pro Podcast. Nick Elam: Thank you for having me. Adam Grossman: Yeah, thanks for being here. I think people may have heard of the Elam ending and everything that you've done. And I think we're gonna talk about some new ideas and new concepts and new things that you think could be interesting. But for those who are not familiar, let us learn a little bit more about you and your background and what is the Elam ending and how did it become so famous and so popular. Nick Elam: Sure, so the eliminating in nutshell is an idea not meant to change basketball, but actually to do the opposite, to preserve a more natural and exciting style of play through the end of every game. And the way that it's done is to remove the clock at the end of every game and to play to a target score instead. And what that does is that gets ri rid of a lot of the warping strategies that we see so often in timed games, and allows for a more authentic, familiar, suspenseful style of play down the stretch of games. And it was first implemented at TBT the basketball tournament in twenty seventeen, where it has been implemented ever since. Although there were ten years of independent research and outreach leading up to that first implementation. But Adam Grossman: Yeah. Well well that's I I know I kinda yeah, I kind of jumped into like 'cause I think obviously that's what you're known for, obviously given how successful it's been. But maybe start a little bit from the beginning, which is what I usually like to say. you talk about the ten years and developing it and your background as a math teacher and all that kind of good stuff. So could we start from your background and then how it you came up with this idea? Because the ends of basketball games for basketball fans have been something that people have thought about, like a better term, complained about, and you obviously came up with a a very creative solution. So why don't we start more about your background and then we'll lead back into the Elam ending from there. Nick Elam: Sure. So I think it is important to point out that I'm a diehard basketball fan. I really do love basketball. So it's Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: I I've always thought this is a way to make a great sport even greater. And because yeah, it just it seemed like, I mean, on it even just on its face, okay, here you have this phenomenon that we see so often in a game where a trailing team's only recourse, their only recourse to try to stay in the game is to overtly violate the rules of the game by by committing a foul because they're so desperate to stop the clock. That they're willing to give away one or two free points. Like that's how desperate they are to stop the clock, but they have to break the rule to do so. And to me, it's it's such a fundamental flaw that if you were to see that in any sort of a a major sport or a card game, a board game, video game, anything like that, like that would be something needed to be addressed. And especially given the fact that it it's it's a flaw, but it's not even a cool flaw. Like it leads to this like really Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: boring and warped style of play. Like this, this is something that there's gotta be some way to improve on this. So I was a young whippersnapper. I was a twenty-three, twenty-four-year-old bachelor you know early in my t career as a high school math teacher, and a light bulb moment of thinking, well, you know, all these different phenomena that we see late in games, whether it is that trailing defense committing that foul on purpose, whether it's the leading offense going into a very passive style of play where their number one goal is to exhaust time instead of score points, the trailing offense now forcing up these ugly. shots and rust shots, almost like blooper reel shots that we wouldn't see in any other point in the game. relatively slim leads that are very hard to overcome. And just many big games and good games that fade out with a whimper. I realized in 2007, well, you know, all these different phenomena are attributable to the game clock in some way. And so I thought, well what what would happen if you just got rid of the clock for that last stretch of the game and played to a target score instead. And even at first I thought, okay, there's gotta be some something I'm overlooking here, some reason why that won't work. And so just out of curiosity, I explored the idea because I was trying to figure out, well, what is the flaw here? I was trying to scrutinize it every which way I could, poke holes in every which way I could to figure out why won't this work. But as the weeks and the months went on in 2007, I really came to believe, you know what, I think this idea is necessary. I think it's sound, I think it has the potential to be very cool. And then Once I convinced myself that the idea had merit, then the really tough part started of trying to convince other people in the basketball Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: world that the idea had merit or in sports media, just trying to generate discussion about it. And I didn't know it at the time, but yeah, it turned out to be 10 years worth of continued research, continued outreach. and if I had known that it was gonna take 10 years for that first implementation of TBT in 2017, I'm not sure I would have stuck with it. Adam Grossman: huh. Nick Elam: But I always felt like I was one day away, one connection away for One just little breakthrough away from really moving this project forward. And that's what made me stick with it. So it was like it was like 10 years worth of tomorrows that final that finally led to that connection with TBT. And then once it was implemented there and people had the chance to see it and experience it and understand like what it was all about, then the momentum really took off. I I realized, which I knew all along, that the idea spoke for itself much better than I could speak on its behalf. And so then that's why we started to see. A lot of implementation elsewhere, right after TBT, the Canadian Elite Basketball League, that's Canada's top professional league, the NBA All-Star Game, the NBA G League. Now we see a a version of it in Unrivaled and the Women's College All-Star Game and and just countless grassroots level leagues and events. And it's just exciting every time there's a little growth or a little breakthrough like that since then. Adam Grossman: you mentioned obviously ten years of tomorrow. So who did you initially approach and why did you think you were so close from the beginning and then, when it obviously didn't happen, what kind of kept you going? Nick Elam: Great question. So I had I had a list and I I can dig up this list of like I think it's I think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of about 80 different individuals. a lot of them were conference commissioners in the NCAA because that was really kind of my target Adam Grossman: Interesting. Yeah. Nick Elam: venue was was college basketball. I thought that's that's where the these phenomena are most glaring. so I thought that was the place and I was just more of a you I you know, I grew up Adam Grossman: What did you Nick Elam: in southwest Ohio. That's more of much more of a college basketball hotbed than Than an NBA hotbed. And so I always kinda had my eye primarily on college basketball. But I've also learned over time that the, you know, the NCAA is a little bit tougher to make changes, at least willingly make changes than than other leagues and levels. So so a lot of them were conference commissioners, some were certainly pro people at the NBA level. A lot of them were just sports media members, because I'm a little bit of I won't say a sports talk junkie, but I I certainly Adam Grossman: Okay. Nick Elam: keep my eyes and ears on sports talk, and I thought, well, This is a worth, you know, when when you've got sports talk going on twenty four hours a day, this is a worth at least a five minute segment or discussion, this kind of idea. So I thought maybe that might be a way to kind of inch inch this idea forward. So yeah, it was just it was just really kind of just shoot somebody described it this way, and I hadn't described it this way before, but I've I've kind of stolen this description. In a lot of ways it was just me kind of shooting arrows in the sky every way I could, and just hoping that one of them would land. And so I didn't have necessarily this really polished plan, but I was just gonna Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: relentlessly try to to reach out and try to make that connection, to keep it going forward. And you know, again, whatever it whatever finally worked, it finally the connection was with TBT. And I'm certainly glad that they gave it the opportunity to you know, to to speak for itself. And there was no guarantee that it was going to last beyond that Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: first weekend of implementation. That was the other thing that was terrifying, as I was there at Philadelphia University, a little gym, Division II gym, in the summer of twenty seventeen. And you know, I'd worked so hard and hoped and dreamed just to get to that point to get to see it play out in real life. And there was no there was no guarantee it was going to live on beyond those first eleven games played in the span of one weekend. but once I saw it and saw that it was not only meeting my expectations, but actually exceeding my very high expectations. I was like, Okay, somehow, some way, whether it's with T B T or somebody else, this idea, this project has life. It's gonna continue on. Adam Grossman: I want to talk about TBT, because obviously not everybody listening to the podcast knows exactly what TBT is. But before we get to that, one of the things that comes up, I've an entrepreneur and I've s started and exited a couple companies, or had companies exit, but when you're explaining this concept to people, obviously basketball has been played a certain way with a clock for a long period of time. How did you get people to understand what you're talking about? Or how did you get people originally, even if they didn't agree to implement it, obviously you had to get them to understand the concept in the first place. So how did you explain it and then what were some of the objections that you heard originally over that initial 10 year period that you tried to deal with? Nick Elam: Glad you asked that follow-up part of that question right there, because it goes back to something you had asked before of what kept me going, which was the fact that even though, you know, as I was reaching out to people, you know, maybe only 5% of them would respond at all. And the ones that did, a lot of times it was one or two short sentences of, hey, you know, it just doesn't, I'm not sure it's a good fit right now, or not something that we're interested in, that sort of thing. But in a weird kind of counterintuitive way, it was still something that wanted to. keep me going forward because I always thought, okay, if there's really some tangible reason why this won't work, then I think somebody would have pointed it out to me by now. And, you know, years would go by and sure they weren't necessarily interested in it. But also no one was pointing out to me like a a downfall or like a fa a fatal or fundamental flaw of this format of why it wouldn't work. And so, like I said, in kind of a counterintuitive way, the it made me feel like, okay, we haven't reached a dead end here. and I would have almost been relieved if it had, because then it would have been like, okay, it's like it's it Adam Grossman: Yeah, getting a know is always yeah, when you're Nick Elam: would have been like, okay, I hadn't thought of that. And then you know, we could just move on to something else. But it's Adam Grossman: Yeah. Exactly. Nick Elam: like, so I'm almost begging people, like, please tell tell me why this won't work so I can get my mind off of this thing. But Adam Grossman: Yeah, exactly. Nick Elam: so when it comes to how did I present this so that it would you know make people interested in it, you know, the way I went about it at first, not necessarily the best way. It was much more of like, and this was before I was a a true researcher, which I became later on by getting my doctorate and then becoming a professor. But you know, at the time, I guess I was s sort of a researcher in the making and kind of doing this in a very much like a white paper type of argument that was really just unrealistic and almost unfair for me to expect people to take time out of their day to take a deep dive into this concept that I had. So I had to learn I had to learn as time went on to get and and even now you're seeing it in the way that I ramble sometimes. I did be learn to be short and sweet, get get the idea, you know, get the need out there quick, get the idea out there right behind it quick, and then kind of give a chance to breathe. Of let's okay, now let's take a deep dive into the different effects. you know, let's show that I've really thought through any possible unintended consequences or ways to circumvent the rule. But as far as like upfront, it's like here's the need, here's the idea to address it, here's how it works, boom, boom, boom. And that was a lot better. The other part that was that really helped too was that when I thought of this idea in 2007, I had a lot of different versions of the Elamending. And where some would the the The clock would shut off for the last stretch of the game, some for the full fourth quarter, some for the whole second half. Some of them would be dependent on the scoring rate for the game up to that point. and others would have just used a flat number. And early on, I favored a format that you know would be more dependent on the scoring rate in that game. and then finally in 2013, after it was just not much momentum there, I thought, you know what, maybe simpler is is better. And maybe just having a flat number that you add rather than making it dependent on whether it's a high scoring game or low scoring game, maybe that's the way to go. So that was another big adjustment that I had to make. And in a time it felt like a concession too that I made it. But I'm so glad that I did. And it's just it's it's better. It's simpler to just have like that flat number, you know, whatever league or event that uses it, that to for them to have their own number. You know, for TBT it's plus eight. That's how you add. to figure out the target score. In the Canadian League it's plus nine. In the NBA G League, they use first to seven in overtime. but it but they all have their own number. And that was that's move towards simplicity also was an important and beneficial move for me. Adam Grossman: that's a very helpful thing to know sometimes, right? When you're trying to think of ideas, you try to think of all the different complexity, and it's hard to communicate what that idea is or how it works or how it operates. And people have a short amount of time and can have relatively short as attention spans, particularly for novel ideas. So the idea of making it simpler can be helpful. And I think it's probably in large part what the Elam ending is known for best is the target score. And how do you get to the target score? So it's always funny like that. We'll call it accidental. way of that something that you get known for the best is this target score. And that goes to my next question. once you made the adoption, who were the first people to express interest? Obviously this is a novel idea. And then we'll get to the basketball tournament and how it really took off from there. But who were the first people that you actually were able to convince this is a good idea, get the meeting, who was in that original five percent of positive responses. Nick Elam: And forgive me if I'm not understanding the the question because yeah, it was it was T B T who was the first to to move forward with it. Adam Grossman: yeah, but I think you you you at least got some people who are interested, whether they adopt it or not. But who are the first groups of people that were actually interested? 'Cause it is seemingly such a departure from the basketball gym. Nick Elam: Yeah. I s I see what you mean. Well, again, what in that first wave of outreach, again, some of them included sports media members. And one of the people who were the first to respond to me and give a very thoughtful response was like a twelve hundred word response that I still have in an email to this day, was Dan Bonner, who is one of the most prolific voices in NCAA tournament history. He's probably right up there with Jim Nance in terms of how many games he's called for the NCAA tournament over the years. But He replied back in a very thoughtful way. He th he thought through what he liked, what what I was up against also in trying to change this sort of the thing. and it was it was great. It was it was like You know, obviously you want people to give you the response that you want, but even if they don't, the the next best thing, the constellation prize, which means so much, is for them to give you a thoughtful response that you don't necessarily want to hear necessarily. And that's what that's what Dan Adam Grossman: Huh. Yeah. Nick Elam: Bonner did. It just means the wor meant the world to me, still does, that he gave me that thoughtful response that was still could have been seen as deflating, but it was more of just illuminating. I look I look at it that way. but then also there there was a semi-pro league, and I'll just say it, it was it was the ABA, which still exists, and it seems like it's a league that's maybe kind of volatile. It seems like every year they're kind of gaining new teams and losing teams, but but they still, I mean, there still is such a thing as the ABA, still to this day. I was having some ongoing conversations with them. I forget exactly what year it was, but it was well before 2017, and I thought that that was maybe gonna be the the breakthrough that was gonna be the new home for this concept, which wasn't even called the Elam Ending at that point. And but it just it it it there was some momentum, but just didn't quite get past the goal line there. And so I had to start from scratch again. And then but then I mean truly they were the only they were the only league that there really seemed to be true promise of implementation before it got to TBT later on. And and also, I mean, I was reaching out to leagues and levels all over the board, including just recreational leagues. And if again, if I had known it was going to take 10 years, I probably would have just started my own rec league where we where we use this format. I mean, truly, I would Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: have I would have done that. Maybe it would have taken a year or two to get really get off the ground, but that probably would have been easier than waiting 10 years. But I just never thought it was going to take those 10 years. Adam Grossman: And so let's talk about TBT. So what is TBT? How did you get connected and why were they interested in the sending? Nick Elam: Yeah, I couldn't have asked for a better landing spot for this concept of mine because they were a league that was, or I should say an event that was already underway. They already had a foothold and because they had started in 2014, they had a few years under their belt. They had a television contract television partnership with ESPN. they had high-level players, recognizable players. they they understood the value and investing in recognizable broadcasters. I mean, people like Joe Lenardi, who's the bracketology guy, and Fran Frischilla and Seth Greenberg and just very recognizable names calling their their games. TBT is a it's a winner take all summer event and it's it's kind of painted as this open tournament where anybody can get a team together. You know, Adam, you and you and I could get a team together if we thought we could win this tournament. the the Adam Grossman: I n well, I know we couldn't, but yeah. Nick Elam: The the the the team that wins it all wins anywhere from one to two million dollars. and if you finish second or if you finish anywhere else, you come away with nothing. And that's that's what makes it really attention getting high stakes is that winner take all nature to it. And but they had a few years under their belt. I already knew and had watched some TPT games, so that's what was exciting to me. Think, okay, like here's something I've actually heard of that they're they want to explore this idea because they want to, not just because they're they need to, not just out of desperation that they're looking for something novel, but just very well organized, well run, just great people there, and which I didn't really know at the time, but they just ended up being the perfect home for it. And so it was, you know, just like what a lot of viewers from the outside would see. They were noticing in their games, like these games just grind to a halt and it just it becomes torture to watch. And the the nature of their tournament, where they a lot of times they would have eight games back to back in the same venue, and where it's really important to try to stay on schedule. And if you get have these games that just where the final stretch takes forever, or they go to overtime or multiple overtimes and just throws the whole schedule out of whack, that there was appeal in that way. There was appeal from that standpoint of They can just keep the games on track and on schedule. Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: They also really loved, even more than I did. I mean, they they really put a lot of value in the phenomenon inherent in the Elam ending that a game has to end with the swish of a net, which lends itself to all these just great moments and great highlights. the part that truly still is my favorite part is the practical part in terms of it addresses, it just leads to a more authentic style of play. They were kind of like, well, whatever on that part. They liked the cool part and they liked the time Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: factor of it. But we all had our own reasons to love it. And it was enough for it to for them to give it a shot. They did in 2017. They were still not sure totally if they were gonna adopt it on a full-time basis until I think it was March of March or maybe even May of 2018. I was in limbo for that long. but finally I got the the news from their founder that Yes, they were gonna go all in with the Elam ending every game for twenty eighteen and it's been used in every game and their event since then. Adam Grossman: So a couple questions. One, what was that initial response like from the fans? obviously you were living it day to day. and two, who came up with the name Elamenting? Is that something you came up with or is that something that came for the TV T? 'Cause now in the sports world it's much more well known, but I don't know if that was something you'd always thought of as from a branding perspective. Nick Elam: The so the the name was a collaborative effort to come up with the Adam Grossman: Okay. Nick Elam: name Elam Ending. The and I forget the first part of the question of Adam Grossman: What was the initial response? Yeah. Yeah. Nick Elam: yeah, of of the onlookers. Yeah. That was what was so cool about this was and and it's kind of surreal to think back on that Saturday and that Sunday in 2017, where You know, I I didn't know a lot about how these teams actually came together in TBT and how much time they had to prepare and practice together. Well, I got the I learned very quickly from being there that day. A lot of these teams come together at the last minute. they have their own players have their own commitments and they're f they're flying in, driving in, you know, the morning of a game and you know, they're having their first practices together. And a lot of these players didn't know the rule. They so they were playing under this format where they didn't even know it. However, so when they were first introduced to it, they're like, What, what what is this? What what are we doing here? But as soon, as soon as they had a chance to play it, and I could hear everything they were saying, for one, because I was sitting courtside at the scores table, and two, because there were like eight people in the gym. so I could hear every word that these players were saying. Like you could actually hear them say as you know the clock shut off, the target scores posted, and now they're playing at that target score that It was very familiar to them. It was like how so many of us have learned to play basketball, which is you play to a score. And once that once that clicked, and it didn't take long for that to click, then it was like, okay, full speed ahead. Now like they're putting their their head down and going after it. And we just saw some really intense, especially on the defensive side. The defensive intensity l just locked in so much. And that was one thing I I guess I hadn't, maybe I'd thought of but didn't. Know for sure how it's going play out. That's become a hallmark of the Elamending style of play is that you just see the defensive intensity ramp up so much. And so players loved it. The coaches, once they got their arms around it, they were loving it. And again, this is all in the span of a weekend. The the broadcasters who I got to talk to, I got to meet Joe Lenardi, I got to meet Matt Martucci and Tim Scarborough. They were loving it. They love the fact that, you know, yeah, it has these game-ending moments. I remember by the end of that first day, as we got we started at about 8 a.m. But then once it got into the afternoon and evening, then there was a Rutgers alumni team that that was able to bring in a lot of fans. So now the gym was almost packed. And they were trailing by 13 points when the clock was shut off in their game. And it was, it would normally be the type of deficit that just really wouldn't offer a lot of hope. And if they if they were gonna come back, they'd have to come back quick. They they couldn't afford to have a single waste of possession. Well, the elimining allowed them to chip away, chip away, chip away, and they went on a 14-0 run to take the lead in that game. And the crowd is just going crazy and loving it. And so that was energizing. The referees loved it too. They loved the fact that they didn't have to govern such a warped style of play that they could just kind of, I mean, they still had a lot of tough calls to make. But they're making tough tough calls in a familiar environment. years later, I had a one of the TBT refs when he realized who I was at the hotel bar, like almost act like he was in awe. And he bought me a beer. He he bought me a beer. I don't know what kind of language is loud on this, but he bought me a beer and called me an effing genius and talked about how much he loved it from a referee standpoint of just being able to call real basketball. So yeah, in that span of that first weekend, just about every stakeholder you could think of was already. really kind of coming to embrace this new concept and how it can benefit them in in some some unique way. Adam Grossman: you mentioned some of the places the Elam ending has been adopted since, but what happened after the initial tournament and and then the follow-up, where did it go? how did it grow and how did it start to gain not only just widespread adoption, but then widespread notoriety? Nick Elam: Yeah, and so that's the other thing is I s have and still consider myself to be the Elam Innings toughest critic too. So as I was wa as I was watching this and loving, you know, ninety percent of what I was seeing, I was also thinking of it from an innovator standpoint, a creator standpoint, a researcher standpoint of okay, like there's there's little little elements of it that I'd love to kind of tinker with, fine-tune to make it even better. I always I always knew that the initial version of the Elamending was not necessarily gonna be the final version. So it was like thinking through okay, how can we improve this slightly a little bit? But then yeah, it was i I c I continue to reach out to people, but so I I'd also gotten used to the fact that over these years that so much of that communication is one-way communication. I really don't have any way of knowing whether people are re reading this or where the discussions are. But still finally I was starting to get some more responses back or just unexpected outreach back, including this Canadian Elite Basketball League wanting to adopt it going into their 2020 season. certainly the call that I received in January of 2020 from members of the NBA League office to say that Chris Paul had and at the time he was the president of the players' association, coming to them. And saying that they feel like there's a lot of merit in this concept of an untimed finish to games. Could they try it out in the all-star game? And that and here they are they're calling me. I was sitting in the an airport terminal terminal for a flight that had nothing to do with this, but get this call from the NBA league office and saying, Hey, we love the the idea, the players love the idea, we want to try it out in the all-star game, and we want to send you two all expenses paid to Chicago. For the All-Star game, so you can see it in person. And like it was just a call that I'll never forget in my life. It was the coolest, coolest thing ever. and so yeah, it was like finally some now there's a little bit more of a dialogue. I'd still wish that I had more of a seat at the table at some of these discussions. And even if I had to keep my mouth shut, you know, you could put duct tape over my mouth or whatever, but I'd just to be at this table while Some of these league executives are talking about this concept would be such a joy. And I hadn't always gotten as much of an opportunity as what I'd like for that. But you know, some in some ways, like the Canadian Elite Basketball League, they've they gave me a chance to be an official consultant for them. I would track what I would consider like key indicators, key factors of the of the format itself, how effective it was worth in working, what adjustments could be made, and give them a presentation at the end of the season on my thoughts. I I'd Loved that stuff. I love that. And again, it's not to say that any of those things can't happen. I wish some of them would have happened a little bit more. But yeah, like that's the kind of stuff I just brings me so much joy to have a a seat at the table on these discussions about these very nerdy sports rules. Adam Grossman: I almost would counter saying it's not nerdy, the end of basketball games and figuring out I mean, this is something that the rules have had a large impact on the average fan. We've seen that in Major League Baseball, obviously most notably in terms of substantial rule changes having a real impact on the fan, the fan viewing experience. I think what's gets underplayed in what you just said, among other things, is and I meant to comment on this earlier, when you said the game ending on a swish or ending on a basket, that's always been a complaint, right, with all these fouls is that it kind of ends with a whimper rather than a bang a lot of the times. And I think rule changes while seemingly arcane or nerdy, can have a real big impact and not just on the game itself, but a compounding impact on ticket sales, fan experience, sponsorship, partnership. I think part of the reason to have you on is that has become much more in the public eye with baseball, particularly if the rule changes not just in terms of the pitch clock, and the bases, but now with automatic balls and strikes and you've kind of been at the forefront of that. So now that you've been, you're arguably, if not one particularly in modern sports, one of the leaders in these innovations, the compounding impacts that have on sports and the sports experience, as somebody who's been in the center of this and seeing all this happen, what's been your reaction, your response? And I don't know if take credit, maybe it's too strong of a word, but how do you feel about, rule changes and innovation actually becoming more into the public discourse. Nick Elam: Yeah, I mean, I I love it. It's like it it's such a niche passion for me. And it's enough of a passion and I think I think there's a shared interest and shared passion that I think there's a a a true, definable, tangible role in sports media for this, But When it comes to some of these rule changes, I don't yeah, I don't want to take too much credit for let's say the the changes that have happened in baseball, but I love the pitch clock. Love the pitch clock. I I love one thing I think has actually been so under-discussed or underrated is the limit on pickoff throws that that a pitcher can make. Cause there's probably no play in any sport anywhere that's more boring than an just an unsuccessful pickoff throw to first base. Like it's just Such a waste of time and they've limited that. They've limited that so that it it not only speeds the game up, but it encourages more of the running game without turning it into some sort of like cartoonish version of baseball. But there's also weird things that I'm kinda old school about. I I do not love the Ghost Runner rule in extra innings. I will say that I've gone from I originally despised that rule. Now I've kind of tolerated it. I I don't love it, but I have come along from an initial point of despising it. and I don't even like, I mean, I don't even like the designated hitter, to be honest. I wish I Adam Grossman: Mm. Nick Elam: I missed I miss the days of double switches and a little bit more just getting more players in the game in the over the course of of a nine inning game. But again, I'm not gonna try to fight that battle either of of bringing back pitchers hitting in games. But so yeah I think People assume sometimes that I just, you know, any change is a good change in my mind. And that's not necessarily the case. For me, it's we want we want the best style of play, the best brand of play. And sometimes that just requires a recalibration. Sometimes you have to make a choice, is do we want, you know, what do we value the most? having a familiar style of play or having familiar text in a rule book. And It's like sometimes if you want that familiar style of play that we miss, sometimes you gotta change the the text in the rule book to make that happen. and it's just it's just a matter of recalibration. It's not trying to change the sport necessarily. But kudos to Major League Baseball for finally making some of these changes that honestly, you know, why I can't give them too much credit, things like the pitch clock, they should have done that twenty, thirty years ago. And if they had They might be flourishing even more than they are now. I mean I think it's still in a healthy spot, but you know, they could have been much healthier spot if they just made some of these changes years ago that they finally did. Adam Grossman: I think the main thing is, like what you're talking about and then we'll talk about innovation and innovators' dilemma. but that's a challenge, for sports leagues, They have a product that is well known and how do you iterate on something that and this is something we talk about in our book too, the sports strategist, how do you evolve with something when people do like rules and some people like traditional rules and that was a challenge that baseball was trying to balance traditional rules and stats versus the innovations and changes that can make potentially the game a product that better aligns with what fans' expectations are now. I did want to close the loop on this and then we'll move beyond basketball, but Elum ending was adopted for the All Star game for a while, then it went away and came back. what's that like, right? Obviously, to have something that you worked on for so long and then to have it be adopted by the MBA for the All-Star game, one of its featured showcase, events throughout the year and having obviously the most famous players in the world playing with your ending, what was that like? What was that experience like for you? And then how did that help you build your personal brand in terms of some of the media appearances and things where you're now, one of the rules based or innovation based experts. When it comes to rules in sports. Nick Elam: Yeah, I mean that was the thrill of a lifetime to to not only have it implemented, but to actually have the chance to witness it in person, to feel the energy in that crowd. And I would have I would have taken just any old, you know, game that ended with a fifteen point margin of victory or whatever, and that would have been fine, but to have it end in such thrilling fashion in that particular case and just feel that energy in the crowd, or there I was sitting You know, 10 rows behind Commissioner Silver and 20 rows behind Guy Fieri. And it was just like a the thrill to to be able to see it play out in person. And it also people and it lasted for four years in the All-Star Game setting, and people will almost kind of like console me a little bit, like, hey, you know, you okay that it's not in the All-Star Game? And I I totally am. The one thing that's been almost, almost like a solid trend with the Elam Ending is that any league and event that adopts it has continued to use it to this day. The NBA All-Star Game is one of those exceptions. However, one difference about the NBA All-Star game is that it's a true exhibition. It is not a high-stakes event or high-stakes setting the way you might say that TBT is, where people are playing winner take all, or the Canadian Elite Basketball League, where that's their professional league. That's a high-stakes setting, or the G League where that is where Players and coaches are are truly one step away from making their dreams come true, and it's a high stakes setting. It the Elamending works in all those high stakes settings. Where it's not as predictable whether it's going to work or not is something that in a true exhibition where it depends very much on the effort level. That's also why, even as you know, as great as the Elamending was in that 2020 All-Star game, and I do take some credit for that, the effort level of the players was was really just as key, if not more key. peep the players were really intent on honoring Kobe Bryant's recent passing and his legacy by giving it their best effort the way that he would have. So that was a big part of why it worked so well there. But it was you know, by the time it was in Salt Lake City in 2023, because there was the you know, in Cleveland in 22, it was also great. But by the time in 23 in Salt Lake City, it was starting to unravel a little bit. And It was starting to get a little sloppy. And it was just because it was an e in an exhibition setting, not because the the format itself was not sound. It just wasn't in an exhibition setting, you just don't quite know what you're gonna get with the eliminating or any any playing format. And Adam Grossman: And Nick Elam: and forgive me, I forget if that was addressed your question or if there was another part Adam Grossman: No, no, I think it just the first part, and as listeners know I can ask multi-part questions, like it can be sometimes difficult to follow. But the the second part is just like building your personal brand from this, right? Obviously the MBA became the most visible thing. You appeared obviously on multiple different media programs. So, how did you parlay something that people are known for into a larger media presence and media role based off the ending? Nick Elam: Yeah, it was really cool to have. I mean, at this point, it's probably, I think it's close to 500 different interview opportunities or keynotes and you know, or or interviews for written articles, things like that. and yeah, let's point to that opportunity of keynotes to have to be able to speak at conferences, whether those are sports analytics conferences or just more you know, which those are fun, but what I value even more. Or just much more general audiences, even audiences that aren't interested in sports at all, because I think there's a a transcendent message about perseverance and positive thinking and following a vision and a and a dream. And I've loved those opportunities. They've been pretty sporadic. I would love for those opportunities to be more consistent and maybe they will be at some point. But yeah, that was that was something that was really exciting to me, that the opportunity to deliver guest lectures and in different courses at at universities, whether that's sports analytics or sport management, whatever it might be. it's it's been fun. I've had so many I've made so many connections, so many friendships even with people who I had only been able to admire from afar. that just means so much to me. It's just so it's been a it's been a really cool magic carpet ride, I would say. But I also knew all along, even when I was starting this out in twenty in two thousand seven and thinking, okay, all right, Nick, how how much time and effort are you really willing to put into this? I knew that there was a chance that even if the e-limiting itself will again, it wasn't even called that at the time, even if its format itself was successful and it caught on, from my standpoint, it might still just be a means to an end. And I might there might still be some work that I have to do to make the most of that success as it pertains to me. Adam Grossman: couple of final questions as we get towards the end here is the you mentioned obviously having an innovation expert on television programs. I don't think we necessarily need your qualification, clearly developing this new ending and seeing the impact that it's had and like we talked about the impact that rule changes have had on sports and the consumption of sports is really interesting. But from a media perspective, there are rules officials during games to talk about what the rules are and how they exist. You're talking about something different. Can you talk about what do you think is missing from, sports media, whether it's daily shows or, a type of a sports vendor type event where you're talking about innovation or rule changes or things that could be used from a rules perspective to improve the games. Nick Elam: Okay, so it's interesting you mentioned kind of the the Gene Sterator, Mike Pereira type example Adam Grossman: Yeah. Nick Elam: that where they might appear during live game pro broadcasts to explain rules and interpretations, things like that. So where I think the best fit is for an innovation expert, as I call it, would be on more of just the the daily morning, afternoon talk shows. And one thing that I was I wasn't sure about, because I know I'm very passionate about these topics. But I wanted to make sure, okay, is this something that really interests other people? So in 2025, I started this kind of informal research project, very anecdotal, very kind of casual, where I would I'd flip around to different sports talk shows and debate shows. And if I saw something that fit under the umbrella of innovation, some sort of a new rule change or a proposed rule change, some sort of really big systematic change or whatever it might be in a sport, I would just kind of jot it down and you know how often it was appearing and how how often it kind of rose to the top of the sports news and debate cycle. And I was surprised and I felt, well, I won't say surprised. I was very reaffirmed that, okay, these are things that are popping up like every other like multiple times a week on all different shows of these this these innovation topics. And as much as I love, you know, insert your favorite sports pundit, you know, here or there, like I'm just not quite sure That some of these individuals are doing like a deep dive into, you know, what are the what are the pros and cons of you know changing the onside kick rule in football and that sort of thing. And it's like there I think it's there's enough importance, there's enough interest in these types of topics where you could and you should have a dedicated segment, maybe it's once a week, whatever, I don't know, where you bring in an innovation expert, You could even have a venue for which I know this has kind of been done, but a venue for people to submit their own ideas and and have it discussed. I think it'd be easy to land a sponsorship, and I know it's I'm talking a little bit out of turn, but you know, it's innovation. So many brands and so many fields love to have the concept of innovation tied to their brand. I think you could find a a sponsor for an innovation segment where you have an innovation expert talking about innovations. And yeah, I think it would be a blast. And I think I I think here's a fit there. I think there's a a niche. I think there's a I think it's a job that should exist. Adam Grossman: part of why I keep bringing up the rule changes in baseball, obviously what you've done with basketball, I think and in football too, there's been some new rule changes and even the way that the instant replay has evolved over time or bringing in the yellow line or automatic, ball placement. I think there clearly is a demand for people. now more than ever, people are open to rule changes and how they can leverage technology to make rule changes and again to improve the game to make it more like, I would say even you're a pioneer making rule changes to make there's some irony in say making new rule changes to make the game the way it's supposed to be or the way people think it should be played in more old school or whatever traditional type of way. so I think that's really interesting. I think it's a possible segment. I I you I think to your point, obviously we talk a lot about partnership and sponsorship and ROAR and that's something we focus on. I do think there could be a organic fit between innovation, particularly innovation as a topic with artificial intelligence or otherwise, for a segment like that. Nick, it's great to have you on the podcast. Great to talk. I think the Elam ending is amazing and it a Pioneer in the rule changes that have come, not just in basketball, but in multiple sports. So thanks for your time. Thanks for being on the podcast. And it was great to have you as a guest. Nick Elam: Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.