Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.320: Understanding the Culture Of Beauty ft. Susan Akkad

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E.320: Understanding the Culture Of Beauty ft. Susan Akkad · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I have such an amazing guest today.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: I am very much excited, and I have been waiting to uh interview her ever since she said yes.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Susan Akkad, who is the senior vice president for all local cultural platforms and corporate innovation at the SDLR company.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome, Susan.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you so much, Ecta.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be talking to you today.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, I'm a fan, and I cannot believe you said yes.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: When I reached out, I was just like, you know what?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna, if I'm lucky enough, she's even gonna see this.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm there.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Such a skincare junkie that I could talk about skincare all day.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I am so excited to talk to you because you've also had such great people on your podcast and are so knowledgeable.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So can't wait to dive into our favorite topic.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Susan.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I really want to do that, but first I want to learn all about you because I know that you are, you know, really just a rock star when it comes to your career.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to learn all about your career.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you get started in in um, you know, this area and then eventually uh moving to Estee?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would love to hear the whole journey if you could share us, share with us.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I I like to say that I'm I'm kind of a happy beauty accident.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I didn't necessarily set out to be in the beauty industry.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, truth be told, I was a classical Near Eastern languages and civilizations major, specializing in the 9th to 14th century.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I um had every intention of joining the Peace Corps and then taking the Foreign Service exam.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was very interested in international relations and culture and foreign policy.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I did a junior semester abroad living in Cairo, and I met my future husband at that time.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So my my plans changed a little bit.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, going into the Foreign Service and the Peace Corps is really a decision you make for yourself.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily you can make for your uh beloved as well.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so we decided to move to New York after, you know, finishing college.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I just I I really like to write.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And someone suggested that in addition to applying for, you know, I'm like 22 years old at this point, you know, in addition to applying for sort of entry-level positions in publishing and media, that I also do so in the public relations departments of companies where I had an interest.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I had always, you know, really liked style.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I didn't know anything about the beauty industry or the fashion industry, but I knew that I liked beauty and style.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that I liked to write.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I applied for entry-level roles at Vogue and the Estee Lauder companies.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I had offers from both to be an editorial assistant to like the sportswear editor at Vogue and to be a PR assistant on the Estee Lauder International brand.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And again, 22 years old, living in like the East Village in New York, the Estee Lauder role paid$500 a year more.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is like 1986, that's like a big deal.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh decision made.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um it was just a wonderful, as I said, happy accident because I really didn't know what you did in a beauty company.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of ground up experience um and really having a bird's eye view to see what actually happened.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how did you actually deliver the product to market?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: How did you talk about the product?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: How did you talk to the media?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things were were fascinating, but what was incredibly um kind of amazing for me is I didn't realize that beauty was so inextricably woven with culture, which was my passion, and inextricably woven with women's agency, which was also my passion.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, oh my gosh, how did I not even know that beauty was like anthropology?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it was very much even at that age about you know women's empowerment and women's control over what they put forward in the world and what was culture's role in that.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I just felt like I hit the jackpot and I completely fell in love with this industry at that point.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I you know was working at the SD Lauder Companies, you know, before the company um was publicly traded.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was still a family, family um held and run business with just four original brands that were started by the the Lauder family.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I had just this incredible experience and exposure.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I then left the company because my husband started his design business and I, you know, he he really needed my help.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was helping him in his fashion business.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was gonna be a couple years, it was like 10.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um and then I returned to beauty working at a competitor working uh for L'Oreal, and then I was recruited back to the Estee L Companies 23 years ago in 1999 as an executive and there in the marketing role.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I worked on the Clinique brand um for uh about seven years.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was the head of global skincare marketing for Clinique, then I was head of global marketing for Origins, and then Global Communications for Mac.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So those are my brand roles, and um, and then in 2008, the um executive management of uh the company came to me to suggest that I pioneer a new role in helping all of our brands be more relevant to non-white consumers, you know, and how how could I turn that down?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it's it's really it's really interesting what you've said, um, Susan, because I feel like this is something that no one talks about.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's such a key point that you've made without even saying it, is is that the idea that when you go into a role, you don't have to be of the mindset of, well, I'm stuck within this list of um things I have to do.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's there is space to truly innovate and to lead and you know, kind of come into your own and bring that aspect, your own personality, to the personality of a company.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a really, really um, you know, strong point that for any young professionals listening, like you have to like, I think, you know, think about that for a little bit is that what what are you really offering to the companies you're at?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, like Susan was describing, you know, how you've evolved and you and then the company evolved with you, you know, that's that's very strong and that's very powerful, like you said.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's such a great point, Ecta, because you know, I I speak at um a lot of colleges, especially, you know, my my uh my own uh college, and I get asked, and I and I generally speak to undergraduates versus graduate students, and so you know, they're like they're freshmen and they're sophomores, and they're like, Well, what did you major in?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or what should I major in if I want to do X?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you know, ninth to 14th century Near Eastern languages and civilizations would not necessarily be like, you know, the logical choice.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just put it that way, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but my advice is that the world changes so fast.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what I did as a marketer 30 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with what I do as an innovation expert now with a background in both marketing and product development.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the world has changed, the consumer has changed, beauty has changed, how we think about beauty has changed.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so my advice is always study what you love because the most important thing is to be a learner, because everything changes.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if you really want to get a little bit more specific, is really make sure that you um understand people because that's that's the most important thing.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I I love what you said about you know, you can bring yourself into the role because there are so many new areas to pioneer because we're in such innovative times, especially something like you know, beauty and wellness and sort of the related fields.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's so dynamic that it's true.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not cookie cutter.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, I 100% agree with you.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, I'm I'm I'm so glad actually that you did have the major that you had, you know.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um looking back, I'm sure, you know, as you said, it's like, how does that correlate when you're at that point in your life and you're, you know, just still trying to figure things out.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I think one of the strongest points of any of the leaders and, you know, pioneers and trailblazers I've ever met in my life is, you know, they you never decide, you know, from an early point.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: It just kind of happens.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when you end up where you are, you know, those diverse uh initial experiences are really what set the, you know, set the change in in motion.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're the catalyst to what you bring.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I really want to kind of use that as a segue to talk to you about um just what you really felt culture, like, you know, like what were the challenges that you knew immediately that needed to be made when you were put into a position where you could now, you know, explain or you know, just you know, renew something or completely revamp um an approach or a strategy for S Day.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like what were what were some things that you were like, okay, this is exactly how we need to do this?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first in full disclosure, I had no idea what I was getting myself into.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, and and I think that you know, that was also like really a lot of foresight, you know, of you know, my company was that they knew that this was really important and a need, but but we didn't we didn't really know what the blueprint was.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt really fortunate that they really sort of trusted me to kind of chart, I had not I had nothing to follow, essentially, you know, to sort of chart to chart the space.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of like um, here's this big opportunity, go, you know.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, which was both exciting and and and somewhat terrifying, um, because I had always been part of large teams and sort of you know big organizational structure and my corporate role.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to like create my own like little garage band or something.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um so didn't really know what I was getting into, uh, knew that there were some first orders of business, you know, which was really to understand the lay of the land and what was the opportunity.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was asked to do this on a global basis, but I thought I can't, I can't start with the world, you know.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let me let me just start with the home turf and and and see where this see where this goes.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding the lay of the land was was was really important.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that I didn't realize what an onion it was going to be, you know, peeling this onion, because you know, the way that I think about relevancy for any consumer.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: So whether this is a skin of color consumer or well, whether this is a consumer in uh a market that's that's um different from what an individual is used to or familiar with, is that you know, there's a lot of things that are sort of surface indications of relevancy.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And for skin of color, the easiest shorthand is like shades, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not what relevancy is.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what I think that was complex, both daunting and unbelievably exciting, is kind of what I call the three-legged stool of relevancy.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's, you know, how are your products and services and experiences and sort of you know, brand uh um affinity relevant for differences in physiology?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So real race-based differences, like, you know, how much melanin do you have that governs like, you know, how what's your own structure?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of these other physiological differences that would impact formulation, performance, experience, needs, et cetera?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So then there's the physiology part.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's the phenotype part, you know, what do you look like?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what color, you know, white, beige, brown, peach, black skin do you have?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So in the case of skin of color consumers, we're really looking at sort of, you know, Fitzpatrick, four to six, but that's independent of race.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, my shade of S.K.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Lauder Doubleware foundation is a really popular shade in the UK South Asian community.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm a Black American woman and I have a I wear a shade that's really popular with like Indian and Pakistani British women.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's because of phenotype, right?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like the color brown overtone, undertone.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third part is the culture.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the culture, it's what's the special sauce, and I think especially it's probably true in beauty.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm biased because I'm I'm in the luxury sector.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've only ever worked in prestige and luxury.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I full disclosure, total bias.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: But because in the luxury area, you know, we're really talking about aspiration and and dreams as opposed to necessarily fulfilling needs.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so the culture is really important because it's like, you know, what are the values of this of that particular society or segment of society?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: What are the values of women?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is women's role within that?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: What is beautiful?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Who defines it?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Who changes it?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: What are the norms?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: What are the characteristics?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So all of those things become so critically important as you're thinking about concepts, communication, and and and and really speaking to people's hearts so that they feel um that this, you know, skincare or makeup or fragrance product is is not just expressing them, but really allows them to be the person that they want to be.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I really love your I love your approach.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to say that first and foremost because I think that the amount of layers that we just covered just now, you know, of this onion that we're still kind of trying to figure out and you know, peel off layers of is is you know, is extraordinary because I I agree with you in the sense that the homework that has to be done, there needs to be an understanding.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think, um, I'll I think in any industry, the homework has to be done from the side of like, you know, very, very large grants and um companies that have the brands and you know, the people um to do that homework.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think what I'm realizing, and correct me if I'm wrong, you know, is that consumers, you know, yeah, we want to talk about what makes us feel beautiful and what makes us feel like we're more heard and seen.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, you know, it there's just a different feeling when you pick up a foundation and you put it on your skin and it just works, you know, and there's no, there's no fussing, there's no BS, there's no, I don't need to voice my opinion about it.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like it just it works, and you get attached to that feeling of okay, this product gets me.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: This actually, this brand gets me.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna exactly and that's it.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to worry about anything else.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for covering this part of my life, so I don't have to worry.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that aspect that, you know, we it's it's a moment that occurs, but that moment has been created by so much in intellectual work, you know, on the part of the the brand.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I really, really love how you explain that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's something that um for me, you know, from from my perspective, is really at the heart of decluttering this industry in terms of the amount of products and the amount of, I guess people call them options, but I I don't know if they're options at this point.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just redundancies, but you know what I mean?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's really at the heart of it because you know, if you give people something that that's truly intellectually crafted, it's going to resonate.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I absolutely love that you, you know, you have that mindset and that you are you lead in this way because we need more of that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's so, you know, it's so interesting, you know, what you're saying, because even as sort of if I take myself uh, you know, out as the innovation person and just as a consumer, you always are sort of torn between like, is it the product or is it the brand?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very hard to separate those things, especially when you're kind of a the luxury space where um you know there's so much sort of branding affinity um that's happening.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's absolutely this incredible, exactly what you're saying, appreciation of I find like the craft of the product, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Especially in the luxury space, like the artisanal craftsmanship of what goes into a product, particularly any sort of adaptation for the needs that I might have as a Black woman, or say if I were um a Malaysian woman who's living in a tropical climate, or you know, so the the kinds of adaptations that really account for who I am and the craftsmanship of the product, that it was, you know, tested on people like me, the proven all those things.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's also like the brand, you know, the brand gets me, the brand speaks to me.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there's always sort of that, you know, it's sort of a both and, you know, um, when you're thinking about, you know, that that love that you get when you put on like that foundation.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a combination of the craft of the product and also the the brand gets me with all these particular cues or the way that it's speaking to me, or that I hear it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it sort of reminds me of the first experience I ever had in a Mac store.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was about 26 or 27 years old.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was taken there by a friend who was a makeup artist.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the store was like super cool.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was in, you know, um the West Village, and it was like one of the original Mac stores on like Christopher Street.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, there were like velvet ropes outside, and there was like this really good looking security guy, you know.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm like 26, yeah, going to clubs with my husband and stuff.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, he's like the bouncer of the cool mat club.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you go in there and they're like all these makeup artists and these super cool people, and people who are in like in theater and all this stuff, and you were like, I found my tribe, you know, um, and that kind of experience, I'll never forget it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is like 20 years ago, and I still tell this story because that was when I fell in love with that brand, because I felt like I found my people, you know.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think, you know, I I think Mac it's it was like that for all of us.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: We just weren't, you know, you were the cool kid.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would have been like, you know what, let me be friends with her because that that's trend that I think you know, it's obvious how much Mac has influenced literally everything when it comes to makeup artistry and just you know, color theory and oh my gosh, so many subdisciplines of truly understanding art.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I can't even imagine, you know, that feeling of just being there at the beginning stages because that company is just that, you know, it's it's been revolutionary, I think, for many of us, you know, and the listeners out there, we all have a story that relates us to Mac, and that's exactly what I mean, you know, with what I was saying earlier is this this memory, this moment, you know, you had a moment.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how many of you listening out there have had that?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you went into a Mac store, whether it was before homecoming or a prom, and you were looking for the perfect, you know, lipstick, or you remember when Russian red was the thing?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everything.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was yes.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember just walking in.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I used to regularly check in to see do they have it?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because they were always out of stock at the Mac near me.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, these kind of moments is what I mean, Susan.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is, you know, you this doesn't just happen.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: This happens because the brand and the team and the people that are behind this have put in real, genuine, intellectually stimulating, you know, um efforts that have really become, you know, they they've been materialized into a real product and a real experience for consumers.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where, you know, most of my questions really fall when it comes to culture and cultural awareness for the beauty industry these days.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because now that we're looking at skincare, skincare for me is, you know, it's as you know, you know, it's lumped up in the beauty category, but it's like now we're looking at skincare that is a more science-heavy approach.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: But then we're still running into problems with these conversations coming up that are um very much parallel to the ones that we've already had on the beauty side of things and the makeup side of things, which is again, you know, that of for example, what you said about the, you know, your foundation shade is very similar to women in a totally different region of our world, you know, same goes with skincare.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's certain things I use that, you know, for my hair or for my for my skin in certain areas that are relevant to somebody living in a much more warmer climate or a more dry climate, you know, these kind of things.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess my question to you is how do we now approach skincare the same way that we've approached makeup to refine that industry?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because what I'm realizing, and I'm gonna be honest and transparent after all the people I've spoken to in this industry, I don't think they're getting it, man.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't think we're getting because it's like so many products and they're all the same ingredients and it's all the same formulas.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I don't think this is I I think we're at a we're at a road where we've hit the roadblock, you know, and we got to move past that roadblock.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I'd love to get your your theory and your yeah, well, you know, I love the question because, you know, for a really long time, we've always been talking about, you know, local and cultural relevancy is across every category of business and beauty.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And as I mentioned, you know, there was sort of like this shorthand for inclusive beauty, which was very much about shades.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's correct.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like we should be all about the right shades and undertones and all that stuff.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I think that it's really been um, it's been really wonderful work investigating and you know, supporting, you know, my organization and our brands and RD on relevancy for skincare.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I mentioned, you know, at the top of the show, I'm a skincare freak.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was before, you know, coming into the business post-the business even more, and then honestly post-COVID even more than that, because it's so aligned to your overall health and and well-being.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that a couple things.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, and I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US, you know, people are a limit are a little timid.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't mean, you know, our industry or my company, I mean people in society are increasingly timid, actually saying words like, you know, race or differences that really are race-based.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there are differences that are really race-based.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think people are getting a little, you know, scared off.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: But two, if you're a person of color, you sort of intuitively know that your skin is different.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: You just don't necessarily know how.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yet there also are a ton of similarities where there are differences.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, what I really love is the rigor of the expertise that we're doing at our company to say where are there like meaningful differences?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And where are there differences that really either don't exist or aren't meaningful, which really are based on physiology and which might be based upon circumstances.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're talking about your hair products for warmer climates, we might be talking about a mattifying moisturizer, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: For um skin of color.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So skin of color tends to have greater oil production.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And also when you have darker skin, you're more reflective, whether you're oily or dry or not.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: You are just the light bounces off.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: So you look shiny, and a lot of consumers think that they're oily because they look shiny.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got the confluence of that reflectivity, the fact that most people of color live in warmer parts of the world andor warmer parts of the United States, if you're talking about the US.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got this real need for products that uh control oil, but in a way that doesn't dehydrate the skin.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that is not necessarily unique to a black or brown consumer.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: That same product could be hyper-relevant to anybody that lives in a hot and humid climate.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things that we really look at are, you know, what are the environmental factors, what are the physiological factors, and what are just kind of like the lived experience factors, as opposed to just making sweeping generalizations, like all black people have whily skin, which is not true, right?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that you really need to dive in.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And as we're designing products with the skin of color consumer at the forefront, is also understanding the diversity within these communities.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what part of the world are we talking about?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we get the scale?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are the also the preferences from texture?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do you want it to feel?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing that I think get um sometimes will get ignored in skincare that we really pay a lot of attention to are what are the aesthetics of the skincare?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, heavily white mast tones on darker skin for a moisturizer, not not hugely appealing for a skin color consumer.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: You want that, I'm not saying you don't have something that has a white mass tone, but you want something that absorbs quickly, immediately breaks, doesn't leave sort of a white or soapy casty film, and that's in a moisturizer.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a whole aesthetic artistry component that has to go, visual aesthetic artistry component that needs to go into skincare formulation as well.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what's crazy, Susan?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Everything said reminds me of a well-constructed research article that gets published in a very highly high impact journal because all of the components you've described here is exactly the kind of information and the way you put it together that you want before you present it to a you know an entire population of people that are very much going to respond to it in a you know in multiple ways.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And let me explain.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, for example, like you had mentioned Clinique, right?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of like the brands that you were with, including Mac.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I will tell you right now the same experience that I told you about Mac, I've had with Clinique.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and that the reason for that is exactly everything I just said, because I remember Clinique was the first toner, they had the first toner I ever used.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: And when I used that toner, it was for blemishes.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And now coming back to your point about the skin of color thing, that's exactly where you guys, you know, for me, you guys pulled me in as a consumer because I use Clinique's toner and my blemish reduced in size and it went away and it did what I needed it to do.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I have had that experience so many times with that same product that when I was flying home from London, I remember being in Heathrow at the time and I had a meeting coming up as soon as I landed, and I was like, I need to get some skincare, I need to get something that works because I was having this just acne from, you know, just traveling and stuff.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my gosh, I need to get that clinique toner in like a travel size.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I kid you not, I went into just a store that was selling, you know, they sell all the beauty products, and that's the product I bought out of everything.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I just went and because I knew I'd be able to get it.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So the accessibility was there, I knew it worked, so the efficacy was there, and I knew I wanted to the desire was there for me, you know, and so all of these things that you talk about, you know, in terms of the aesthetic and all that, I completely hear you.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think these there's still there are examples in the skincare industry of products like this that are, you know, just game-changing, great, you know, uh examples to really reference when we're moving forward.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because right now I think everyone's so focused on innovation that we're forgetting the tried and true nature of every over-the-counter product that we purchase as consumers.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: And there's that's where I I really um, you know, I I want you to speak to the on the skincare side of things because, you know, it's very hard to get brands and founders, especially new founders, to understand this concept that you want to talk about things like accessibility, you want to talk about things like, well, I want my I want my products to be something you can relate to and feel good about.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: People in the other side of the world are not thinking like that.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like Americans think very think very differently, and it's not always in the best ways, but it, you know, it's it's a very different world out there.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I can tell you right now that the women that are living in rural North India but still love their their appearance and want to take care of it, they're not wearing makeup, they're wearing skin, they're using skincare.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they're trying their, you know, their concerns are things the ones I have living here.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's acne, that's oil, that's you know, um, using one product that's not too expensive but works.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the real questions.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love to, you know, get your take on what do you think we should be doing now in this industry, now that we've had all this innovation come out, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like we've gone through that phase and this big boom has occurred in the skincare space of, oh my gosh, there's all the science.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, well, now we have to function, but we have to focus on where do we go from here?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I know I'm being very verbose, but that's where I really want to get your opinion is like, where do we go from here?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's kind of a both and, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, you you can't slow down the innovation train in that you're always going to want to build the better, bigger mousetrap.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also, as you know, technology, um, new technologies and new improvements, it's like you you can't you can't resist, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you're a creator or an inventor, you can't resist being able to invent new or invent new benefits or invent a better way to get a particular result.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: That said, there, you know, to your point around um quote unquote basics, you know, one of the things that I've kind of found is that there's also a lot of new life to the basics.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I had the similar experience to Clinique that you did.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I started using Clinique, I discovered Clinique when I was in college.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um the clarifying lotion, the soap, um in particular, I really discovered and because I didn't realize that a lot of the skin issues that I was having was because I'm allergic to fragrance.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm literally I'm such I'm a super, super, super sensitivo, and I didn't realize it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up in a black southern family where everything is fragranced, you know, like your body soap, you've got the soap in your drawers, which means that you're having the fragrance all over your clothes, you know, even like your t-shirts and things.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh it was a you know a clinic consultant that actually told me what the issue was.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I became a dedicated clinic skincare user as a teenager, and that's what I still use.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So to take the example of a clarifying lotion, absolutely, I had oily skin as a young person.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now I'm 58, and when you go through menopause, your cell turnover slows down.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, I've never stopped using clarifying lotion, but now I'm like, I can't be without it for a day because I see the difference that it makes in my radiance, because I know that your cell turnover slows down with menopause, but most women don't even know that.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a huge opportunity, I think, in sort of you know, um, more basic skincare for both young people and for people who are in sort of my stage of skincare life of education, right?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what do you do if you can only do one thing?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do if you've only got five minutes?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do when you really, you know, want to take care of yourself and you've got 30 minutes, you know?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that it's around it's not just meeting different consumers because obviously the the circumstances in emerging economies are different than they are in mature economies or rural versus urban or access versus not access.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's about meeting women where they are to be able to offer different options.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that uh our brands are are are really doing a good job of that in terms of you know time constraints and you know what can you do under this circumstance or that circumstance?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's not a world where you know people only shop in one channel of distribution, everybody's got 45 minutes, uh, that we're all leading the same life.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I wouldn't be one in favor of slowing down the innovation train because I think that's so exciting.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I also um, especially both the age that I am as a consumer, but also my other area of focus now is the ageless consumer.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we just got this, you know, extra 30 years of longevity in the last hundred years that's been added on to our life, but it's not added on to old age, it's added on to middle age.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so the opportunities for invention in this new era because we're not the same human beings that we were a hundred years ago, is just exciting.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: But absolutely to your point, the opportunities for someone to have such delight and get such value out of our tried and trues, sometimes we do forget about those tried and trues.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I agree with you.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, hey, you know, I'm I'm a scientist, you know, through and through in the spirit of science, let the innovation keep going for as long as you know humanity is on this planet.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as far as I'm concerned, I think that is always the most critical component of anything, whether it's you know, beauty, any kind of discipline, doesn't matter.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I completely hear you there.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more of like for me, I'm starting to realize that yes, there is so much value in innovation, but then um applied innovation is where I think we're kind of hitting the mark, we're missing the mark, is that that application on a on this cultural uh stage, you know, when it comes to consumerism.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly why I had asked you that, because um the psychology of incorporating cultural awareness into a brand that is uh or a brand or something that people are buying with their money and they're investing in is I can't imagine how difficult that would be for skincare.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't even imagine how difficult this task is.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, first of all, hats off to you for even, you know, for really kind of being a trailblazer in this space right now, in this moment in time when so much science is coming out around skin health and dermatology and aesthetics and all that good stuff.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I it it I mean, you're absolutely right.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it can be overwhelming for a consumer.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think also, you know, as a scientist, and then you know, I'm not a scientist, but I'm in the technical organization of my company, so I'm around a lot of around a lot of scientists, is that, you know, when you know what something does, right?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So again, taking, you know, the beloved clinique clarifying lotion that you know has salicylic acid, and you know how important exfoliation is, but you know how important exfoliation is if you're in your 20s, and you also know how important exfoliation is when you're a perimenopausal or menopausal.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think our opportunity is to really connect those dots to be able to have the con the right kind of conversation in the right kind of language to the right stage, the right beauty stage that um, you know, a custom a customer is going through.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that it helps filter, you know, that we can help be curators and editors because you really do have a lot of choices, you know, and and then you might logically, especially for a consumer that doesn't have the kind of science background, you're like, well, how can this thing that like helped me when I had acne and I'm 20 be like the thing that I should be using right now when I'm 58?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think that that's also our role is the education around skin health.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and you know what?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: The uh that's such a great point you bring up.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I was gonna say this, you know, your body, like for this, and you know, this is honestly like the way I see it.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Your body is made up of the same things at the age of 10 as it will be at the age of 70.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: The structural components of your body will never change.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: The, you know, the the main elements, the main um, you know, the type of proteins that are being produced, for example, collagen, elastin, all this stuff, right?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's never going to change.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: The quantity is going to change, it's gonna diminish over time.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's where with skin, our skincare products, I think that you know, it would be very interesting to explore um from the cultural, you know, I guess, marketing side of things, where we can say that now we have to really focus on this idea of dosing.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we really focus on dosing and perfecting that, we can then target every consumer from every age group with exactly what they need, because the body is still going to require the building blocks for you know, proteins, the building blocks for the other um, you know, tissue that is involved in overall look and feel of your skin and you know, just the health component of it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a matter of making, I think, consumers, in my opinion, understand this and really uh start to get on board with this idea of there should be different, I guess, tiers that a brand is selling.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, you know, you've got a a brand as large as Clinique.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Clinique can have, you know, five tiers that are just the different, um, you know, you you talk about ageless, right?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is the most best way of being ageless, is just not you're not aging, you're transitioning through tiers.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that those tiers represent different levels on a, you know, like in terms of quantifying what your body needs.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just like, you know, you would kind of titrate your medications that you get from your doctor based on your blood work and your blood results.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: We can do the same for um, you know, consumers that are buying over-the-counter products for skin health.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be a great thing, you know, it could be at this great way of just providing stability and reassurance to to all the people out there that suffer from skin health issues.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because right now, the way I see it, right, it is still popping when it comes to I don't know what if this mark is on my skin, it just popped up.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what to use.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can't tell you, Susan, how many times I go on Reddit forums sometimes and just look at people that just have acne and they're so freaking confused, even in the world that we're living in right now, where it's like social media everywhere, everyone's got you know solutions for acne, but people are still lost.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: And why?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I feel like the the efforts are not being concerted, they're not concerted efforts, they're not, they're not targeted efforts to really make this clear to people.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you need?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: What does your skin need?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: What matters, you know?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, and I think that's where the culture comes in, because it's like that's what defines you know, cultural needs and wants and and I guess cultural uh I guess uh staples, you could say, of products, the cultural staples.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, that's where I find it to be very interesting.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it it's really an interesting idea.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: This, you know, this idea of um keeping your skin in sort of like peak peak performance or you know, peak biological performance through every stage of life, right?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, you have all these same components, but so much is going on.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I've just found so interesting as I've been embarking upon um, you know, quote unquote ageless.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't love the term, but it's the term we have, um, is that a lot of women are not understanding that some of the changes that are happening to their skin and to their hair are a result of hormonal change.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're just sort of chalking it up to getting older, or they're just chalking it up to my skin's freaking out because you know, so much happens during perimenopause, and most women don't know that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're going through perimenopause.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you're in your 40s and your skin's freaking out, and you're like, I don't know, is it stress?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it what I'm eating?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Am I not taking enough vitamins?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to change my beauty routine?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just not necessarily the depth of understanding for consumers about what's happening in their bodies.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that coming out of these times, there's such a hunger to take care of yourself, both internally, externally, um, you know, spiritually, um, and that the time is really right for brands to just sort of be, you know, beauty and wellness girlfriends, honestly.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, help people navigate.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because there is more hunger than ever right now.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just, oh my gosh, I have acne, what do I do about it?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, what's the root cause?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's going to keep it from coming back?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do I, you know, there's just, I'm just finding that there's more complexity around the questions.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, should I should I be taking a supplement in addition to this?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or what should I be taking in addition, you know?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's a lot of sort of comprehensive um approach to skin health, which I think is a great thing.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um because I think it's it's so great.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think it's much better to be in, you know, risk management than crisis management.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: I can't agree with you more, and I I think that's very well said on your part.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I 100% agree with you, and I think that yeah, there's definitely, you know, endocrinology is a, you know, it's it's a really, really interesting field right now.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie, for medicine in in all specialties, but especially skin, because I was literally the other day, so then talking to somebody, uh, it was a colleague, and I was talking about, um, they were posting about sorry, lasers and um laser use, right?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: With aesthetics.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, you know what's interesting in endocrinology, what we're seeing is this I it's literally called a polyglandular syndrome.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: So you remember how people were like, you know, first learning about how if your thyroid go thyroid uh messes up, you're gonna have hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism and all that stuff.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're talking about menopause and we're talking about, you know, just some of the hormones.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now they're realizing in medicine that, well, wait a minute, there can be a state where all of your glands start getting wonky at the same time, causing a plethora of problems.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, you know, it this came up.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, even the subdisciplines of medicine are now realizing that this is gonna be a tough battle, you know, when it comes to preventative health.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, when we get like that's why, like, you know, right now what you said is so relevant, where people are asking for these, you know, they're asking the deeper questions because we're finally at a point, I think, where we're like, damn it, just give me the solution, you know, give me a real solution.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to know why you are doing it and why it works and what's gonna happen uh that's going to make this a real thing and not be another gimmick, you know, and and because we're we we don't have the money anymore and we don't have the time to spend and we don't have the resources to waste.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's very interesting what you said, definitely.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with you.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I also think people are really prioritizing their skin health, you know, and that it's more than than than surface, right?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and using good skincare and having routines is more than surface beauty.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people are really equating it with um health and and also wellness from the standpoint of like taking care of yourself and self-care and self-love, you know, like all of those things I think are the the positive side of what we've gone through.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, I hope that you know it really translates across across everything, you know, that everyone is just taking more care of themselves and being good to themselves.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, I 100% agree with you.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, especially on the on the aspect of self-care.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't tell you how much I love reading about, you know, how meditation is, you know, very, very important to your actual physiology.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you ever saw those studies that were done such a long time ago about how they used Buddhist monks and had them like um think about certain like emotions, like or or no, certain things like hope or love or fear or anger.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then they looked at water and its um crystallization and they realized that the water crystallization based off what they were you know meditating on was different.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: So like the A monk had a crystal that looked very jagged, and yeah, it's crazy.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'll send you the research article.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was done a really long time ago, but that idea is like it's so true and it's so much so relevant to us as human beings and our health.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that so yeah, you're right.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Self-care and wellness is it's big and it should be.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: We really should be integrating all these aspects in because it beauty isn't about beauty anymore.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Beauty is about health and wellness, and and is that you know, they're on a different scale and we need to understand them, you know, especially as we're moving into things like the metaverse and you know, quantum computing and all that good stuff that we like to talk about.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we don't really understand it yet, but hey, you know, consumers can get ahead of that by really uh just focusing on all the other uh, I guess, aspects, like you said.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: I want to actually lighten up the conversation a little bit.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: I know I I got a little intense there, but that was fun.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: I really like talking to you, by the way.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're very uh fun to talk to and uh very few people I can really have this kind of in-depth uh dive with.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, but I'm enjoying it.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask you though, what are some of your tried and trues right now in terms of um what you're loving in the industry, whether it's personal products that you're using or just brands that you've seen um developing and growing and just been like, hmm, I like what you're doing, that kind of thing.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, I I I'm very much a uh a lover of a lot of our brands, you know.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm really an avid um La Mer eye cream user.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And as I mentioned, I've been such a Clinique user for so long.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so much of my skincare is Clinique.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I one of my favorite products is is the Clinique Take the Day Off Cleansing Balm.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a product that was launched quite some time ago, but it became sort of a cult classic quite a number of years after it launched.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it is a little of what we were talking about before is it has this transformational quality.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it it it it sort of you know feels sort of like an oily balm.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: You sort of break it.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's sort of a wonderful aesthetic break when you like dive into it, and then you put it on your face, massage it in, and then it sort of emulsifies with water to take off your makeup.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm just thinking, you know, as I'm using it, and I've been using it for a long time because it's super gentle, and I'm trying to think like, what is it about it that I'm loving even more?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I'm loving the fact that it allows for like this ritual and my nighttime routine, the massage.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I massage it into my eyelashes, like all of these things.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm kind of loving products that by their very nature give me like a ritual, you know, and same with the LaMaire eye cream, you know, I have the you know comes with the applicator and the wand, and you do the massage.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm realizing all the things that I'm really loving have that kind of component to them.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, it might have been, you know, coming out of the last couple of years, it might just be, you know, where I am in my life.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not wearing as much makeup, you know, because of the Zoom world as I as I used to.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: So my skincare routine is, you know, it's like nine steps, I think at this point.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's insane.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I'm just particularly loving the application of things that have a touch to them, you know, or ritual.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you said that because that's so true.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's so like, I feel like that's at the heart of um really just what I loved about skincare from the beginning too.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's so true.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like just this idea of okay, I can be, I can just be present and do this, and this feels great.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: It just also reminds me just a little bit, like my, you know, my mom was like a cold cream user, like lots of our moms were, you know.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and so in some ways, when I'm when I'm using this, you know, very modern product, even though it's not the same thing, it just kind of reminds me, you know, like when you're a little girl, you just stand there, you're watching your mom either put her makeup on or take it off.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you, you know, she lets you kind of play along, you know, and and those memories come back a little bit, you know, because she would do the cold cream and then the tissue off.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's just, I don't know, there's a there's a really warm nostalgia to using products that can also take me to that place too.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that isn't that that's the culture, right?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: Of like skincare.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for me it is, like I completely hear you.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's like the rituals is is part of that culture, you know, in different homes.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I and that overlapping of it, I just find it to be such a beautiful like aspect of this industry, is the is the skincare, you know, side of things, because skincare is something that really unifies all of us, you know, and it's it's something that, like you said, like, yeah, the cold cream story, I've got the same story, you know what I mean?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I've got a white friend who's got the same story, you know, her mom doing it.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's you know, it's like these common threads, and then it also gives you like these wonderful points where you can relate, you know.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we all have some of these like rituals with our mothers or our grandmothers or like these stories, and they might even be the same story or a similar story, and you know, kind of going back to some of the questions that you were asking me earlier around culture and and kind of like favorite experiences, that's also a huge part of the favorite experience is that when I go to uh markets that are really different culture than my native one, and I start having a beauty conversation about like what do you do and what do you think about it?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Who taught you?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody has these stories, right?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it ends up being this place where you can relate.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it sounds when I talk to people outside of the industry, like maybe it's superficial, you know.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'll start talking about lipstick and we'll get to self-worth and identity in about five seconds, you know.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and then these rituals from our our moms or our aunts and our grandmothers.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you just get into those are these deep, beautiful places and stories that are just for me, it's just wonderful fuel for thinking about concepts or descriptions, new ways to describe how to apply a product, like because there's innovation in your words too, it's not just innovation in your technology that make people feel special.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I just find this a treasure trove.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like my favorite part of the job is like doing ethnographies and focus groups and just like having these conversations about what we learn from our families or our culture or elders.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I completely agree with you.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that's honestly one of the most like I think not only like like you said, like satisfying to like go down those roads and have these deep dives, but also like it just unifies, right?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's like yeah, I I don't know.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've had I've had similar discussions, probably not nearly as many as yours, or you know, and on the show where I'm just like, wow, I feel like I found a common ground with this human being that I have nothing in common with.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, based on all of all things, you know, and it's exactly.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be an ingredient or a product that you love, or how something made you feel.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's it's great.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, it's like one of those like serendipity things.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh my gosh, you know, the human experience sometimes is really beautiful.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, I 100% agree with you.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we are you know running into our our time thing, unfortunately, but I uh gosh, I could talk to you for years, seriously.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're literally one of the very few humans, and I'm not just saying this, that I've spoken to that I'm like, wow, breath of fresh air.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you so much.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: This has been an incredible conversation, and I just I I love the fact that that you also find all these things linked, you know, it's like they're not disparate, they're not disparate things, you know.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's my passion.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's why I I love what I do, you know, is that it's all linked.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: The culture, the science, the words, the creativity, the artistry, it's all one thing.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can't really separate it.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and I love it that that that you you share that kind of linking.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's it's wonderful to talk to people who think the same way.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely agree.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I am so glad that you are, you know, you're heading more amazing movements in the sinister.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad that you are, you know, one of the people that are really there, um, you know, as kind of making sure we're doing this in a way that's going to be the best for us as humanity.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it me it makes me feel better as a consumer, knowing that you're in the position you're in and I trust, you know, I trust you as a human being.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: That I think is something that, you know, I mean, we I could make a whole episode around that, you know, how I feel about who who the executives are and what their roles are and how that makes me feel.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just want to say, you know, I love that you are with Estee.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: I love Este itself, the company, you know, it's just, I mean, I can't, I don't have words.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't thank you enough.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it has been beyond, you know, an honor to host you, to talk to you, to learn from you.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for this opportunity.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Ecta.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I just can't wait to hear all your future episodes on your wonderful podcast.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm you know I'm gonna be begging you to come back, right?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like like every I'm going to be begging for like an hour on your calendar.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: So just Oh, my pleasure.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, I hope you love the episode and I really want to hear your comments and feedbacks on this one.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is a really special one.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: So please let us know what you thought.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you have any questions, anything to add to this conversation, I'd love to hear it from you.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: So um, I will be tagging everything um about Susan in the concept art.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope you can, you know, really kind of gain some inspiration from her.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have any kind of mentorship questions, definitely leave them.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: And Susan, I guess, is it okay if I pass them to your team?
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: If anyone has any mentorship questions or you know, documents.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome, awesome.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I will do that.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: And again, thank you for tuning in.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 59:11
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• 59:16
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• 59:18
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• 59:21
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• 59:25
  SPEAKER_02: This way, you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors, all the wonderful people that we host.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 59:40
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• 59:44
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• 59:48
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• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 1:00:04
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• 1:00:10
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• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.