Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / Money, Career Growth, and Life Pivots with Ohan Kayikchyan
Transcript
- Marci Grossman (00:16) Hello, I am MoneyMarci. Welcome. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest Ohan Kayikchan. Ohan is a Doctor of economics, Certified Financial Planner professional, Enrolled Agent, registered life planner, and the founder and chief harmony officer Of Alohana Financial, a fee only financial life planning firm serving clients nationwide. With a passion for helping people live more meaningful lives, Ohan combines technical financial planning with the EVOKE life planning process to help clients find deeper meaning beyond money. Welcome Ohan. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (00:59) Thank you Marci, I'm so happy to be here with you. Looking forward to our conversation. Marci Grossman (01:05) Absolutely. We met a few years ago when we were on Edna White's panel for a financial literacy discussion. I always knew we were going to be staying connected and reconnecting, so I'm thrilled to have you on. Other than how we met, how did you get here? You've got a lot of certifications and education. How did you end up doing all of that? Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (01:28) Absolutely. My entire American life, which is now over 16 years, I lived in Los Angeles. And recently, which is now eight months, I can't believe it is approaching a year, I moved to North Carolina. But the reason I moved here, I wanted to establish my firm. But a little bit about my certifications. When I came to United States, at the beginning it was hard for me to find a job because when I was applying for teller position, I was overqualified. I used to be a mortgage underwriter and loan officer back home. When I was applying for banker position, my English was not enough. So I was in that type of a corner, like I couldn't get job. Eventually I started working as a teller with a major bank. And why I was trying to find a job in the banking because my experience from back home was financial field related. And I like it will be easier to find a job with a bank. long story short, I started as a teller, got my securities licenses, became a private banker as well. But then I realized like that licensing is good, but it is not enough. I wanted some type of a formal education. I went to UCLA, did a program called Personal Financial Planner program, which is prerequisite for me to sit for the exam for Certified Financial Planner designation. And at that time, CFP asked you to show that you have at least bachelor's degree. So I evaluate my diplomas and I had bachelor's and master's which are in engineering to be exact, infrastructure management in mechanical engineering field. And then I had a degree from post-Soviet times because I'm originally from Armenia and Armenia was part of Soviet Union. So I had a degree that verbally translated as candidate of science. But because I studied here and I was in UCLA, I evaluated, I got equivalency in Doctor of Economics. That's how I got my PhD in United States. But then learning that financial industry has much more to do with behavioral finance, behavioral economics and psychology in many cases more than with numbers. That was the time I learned that I want to do something more. In between I became an enrolled agent. I can represent people in front of IRS. But I wanted to get enrolled agent because tax has always been fascinating to me and they are so complicated. I like it will help me to understand how the tax system works, which I don't want to disappoint, but still it didn't explain everything. Of course, still I'm learning every day because tax code, as you know, it is changing very often. But because my English was enough. I came across a dead point at least, although I'm learning every day. I came across to work done by George Kinder and Kinder Institute of Life Planning. And that is the time I went to Hawaii. I got a training in the process called EVOKE, which we'll talk more about it. That's the process that I have my clients to go through. And this is about my designations. Marci Grossman (04:44) That's a lot of designations and you moved here, you picked up as an adult and moved to the United States with degrees in engineering and ended up in financial because numbers are numbers and the rest are just learning the rules. That's a big change. I talk about pivots all the time because what is life but a series of pivots that get you wherever you're going to end up. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (04:59) Good Marci Grossman (05:09) Those are big brave pivots to go to do all of those things. Tell me why did you move to North Carolina to open up your firm? Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (05:11) Thank you. Great question. So as you mentioned, like pivots, yes, like in times even in our life, just to compare it with driving, we need to make that U-turn. When we see that no, this is not the road that I want to take so I can make a U-turn and go to someplace else. So that was one way to explain. But the main reason I came to North Carolina, because when my daughter was born, almost four years ago, my understanding about Los Angeles was changed. I still love Los Angeles. California weather, in my opinion, one of the best weathers in the world. But then the traffic, the cost of living as well, and someone who is just starting business, you need to be a little bit more conscious about your expenses and everything. And one of my friends used to live in Charlotte, North Carolina. So he invited us to come to visit him. We came, we really like Charlotte. But then again, Charlotte reminded us big city because it's, if I'm not mistaken, the largest financial hub. We like Charlotte, but one of my other friends who is a money coach in Raleigh, North Carolina, she invited us to visit the Raleigh area. It just happened that we got our Airbnb in Durham. Durham is very much known for Duke University. We like it very much that we end up renting the place exactly in the same neighborhood that was in our Airbnb because we are very close to Raleigh, Kerry, Chapel Hill. We are kind of in the middle of all these different cities which are connected to each other. And because I'm building my firm digitally, so pretty much I can help anyone over the internet via Google Meets or Zoom. I wanted just to be somewhere that I will have more or less control over my time, which got translated to control of my day. Because someone who reads a lot, plus has a daughter again that I need to take her to different places. Although my wife also drives, we do that. But here it is much, much easier than in LA. In LA if you decide to go to somewhere for an event That's the only place you can go that day. There is no way you can accomplish going two or three places. Versus here We can at the morning go for my daughter's practice and then come home and I have the second half or vice versa I do the first half I work I wake up early actually and I work and then I can take my daughter to any activities. Recently we start biking so we can go bike. These are some outdoor activities that you don't necessarily have in LA in the traffic and city environment. Marci Grossman (08:04) Yeah, I'm sure. So I guess let's backtrack and tell me about the EVOKE process because you said you learned about that in Hawaii, right? Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (08:14) Yes, I learned in Hawaii. The author of the process, his name is George Kinder, who became now my mentor. He wrote a book which is considered one of the first psychology of money type of book called Seven Stages of Money Maturity. When I read that book, although my English was better than in comparison when I first arrived to United States. But still I was having hard time of understanding many topics in it. But most importantly what comes to my mind, George Kinder talks in that book about letting your thoughts go and letting your feelings be. Thinking of just don't think but feel. And that part like thinking and feeling, I always confused how it can be because like you need to be truly invested in your body, understanding like how your body feels and everything. So I started doing some research on that part. Then I heard him talking to Michael Kitces who started his podcast, if I'm not mistaken, 2017 called Financial Advisor Success podcast and George Kinder was his guest. I heard George Kinder talking I like this is something I would like to learn more about and it just happened that the EVOKE training is conducted in different places including Hawaii, Continental US, they do it during different conferences, including Massachusetts, and also abroad, particularly like Holland and UK. But I'm in California, I'm close to Hawaii. Why I don't go and learn directly from George Kinder. Thankfully, I got that time. So I went to Hawaii. It was five day program. And interestingly enough, EVOKE is an abbreviation, which stands for exploration, vision, obstacles, knowledge and execution. So me being a certified financial planner and enrolled agent, and I know many of our listeners and you Marci will relate to this, when you are getting all these designations and licenses, we are learning about solutions that we can provide to our clients. I have a solution for this particular question you have. I have a solution for certain things you want to accomplish. But I was not successful by giving solutions because people were not taking it and implementing it. That was the hardest part, especially, in finance. But with this EVOKE process, we are stepping back and instead of jumping right away to numbers, net worth, or what is your cash flow statement? What is your budget? We first truly take our time to understand our clients. What their longings are, what their yearnings, what their dreams. Then in many cases, one of our trainer mentions, these are like imagine of like marbles and they are hiding these marbles in their pockets. They are scared, truly like they are fearful of taking these marbles out because in many cases they try to do that. But people around them told them like, ⁓ how you can do that? How you can accomplish that? That's like very ambitious. But we create the safe environment, we call it the container for our clients to take out all the marbles, even the ones that they forgot about. Take it out so we can one by one address and just to see what they want to accomplish in their life. Kinder Institute of Life Planning, they organize certain exercises. We call it inspirational exercises not necessarily homework But George Kinder is known for his three questions, so we give the three questions and the exercises for our clients to take their time to answer the questions. And when they come back for our second meeting, which is vision meeting, we go over their answers and together we articulate their vision. And you know it is very important sometimes to listen another person reading your own vision. So your hearing apparatus including your body will listen like what you want to accomplish. Sometimes we just repeat the same thing back to the clients and they're like did I tell that or did I want that they get surprised by themselves. And during the vision of course like people majority right away start thinking about obstacles. They are like how am I going to make this? They right away think of these roadblocks that they have. But then I stop them mentioning that let's now think of your vision. Go live your vision until our third meeting because the third meeting is our obstacles. And we'll tackle and handle every obstacle that comes to mind. Of course, you can write on a notebook or you can email me the obstacles, but don't think about them until you come for our obstacles meeting. And only after that, on the fourth phase, which is knowledge, I build a financial plan that incorporates everything that we talk during these three meetings. So it is truly financial plan that aligns with their dream life to make it happen as soon as possible. Marci Grossman (13:57) You know, that's so important. So many of the things that you said in there from, sitting down and, what are your goals, your priorities? I know you use different words for them and then they translate it into marbles. it's, people don't necessarily say, okay, I've got to start with what I want. If you don't know where you're going, whether you call it goals and priorities or you call it a vision board or whatever it is you call it, you have to know where you wanna go. People are so willing to ignore the psychological part of money and it gets in their way. And of course we all have obstacles no matter how much money you're making or not making or what challenges there are in your life., or maybe you live a golden life, you still have obstacles whether you realize it or not. And taking the time to evaluate them and really dig down in, this is where I want to be. These are the challenges that are in my way. But taking them one at a time, mean, that sounds very powerful. And I love the fact, so you went to Hawaii because you know what the heck, if I've got to go to a financial seminar, I would much rather go to Hawaii, than Cleveland. And Cleveland is lovely. I've got friends and relatives there, but you know, Hawaii versus Cleveland. And it was so profound to you, you put it into your name of your company. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (15:22) Absolutely right. Just to address something and I'll mention about the name also. Our clients don't wake up in the middle of the night and they're like let me go go find someone who will help with my life plan or with clarifying my goals. Usually they come find us if they have any financial need. And I do mention to them if it is something urgent I will address that issue right away But if it can wait let's first take our time for at least three meetings to know each other. The name is Alohana. So I wanted to take Ohana, which is family and no one left behind. But then I see Ohana is already taken. Then I I check Aloha. I like that's cool. Aloha is still connected to Hawaii and it starts with A. So in case it is alphabetical, we'll be on the top. And then because Aloha was taken as well, I like why I don't combine Aloha and Ohana together. So we came up, my wife and I, came up with the word Alohana. Aloha, we all know hawaiin hello, but it also means love, peace and harmony. And interestingly enough. If you ever read The Seven Stages of Money Maturity, the seventh stage is aloha. To summarize, it is on the position that you are in your life already, that you are giving without anything expected back. That's another reason I choose this name. And of course, my name is Ohan. Ohan is in the middle of the word. Marci Grossman (17:05) I know that, but you're not Hawaiian. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (17:08) But I'm not and people do confuse they like ⁓ you are you have Hawaiian? I'm like maybe I have something hawaiian in me I'm not hawaiian but ohan is in the middle But this is message for me that my client is in the middle of everything that I do. Client is the hero of their own journey, hero of their own relationship. Because again someone who studied all this finance and everything, sometimes we feel that we are the hero, and we are going to save our clients' situation, save their, whatever they want to accomplish in their life. But unless they are invested in this, unfortunately, no change can happen. So they need to be the ones and that's what I'm providing to my clients. Truly like taking my time without rushing for them to bring out all the marbles that they have hidden. Marci Grossman (18:04) Right, and when you talk about them being the hero of the story, that's so important for people to realize that in their finances. like you mentioned earlier about clients having to implement the solution. You can give them the best advice in the world. If they don't, then pick up the ball and do whatever the tasks are that they need to do. I think clients are often, I don't want to say their own worst enemy, but their own biggest obstacle because of that change, that pivot they have to make. Well, this is how I've been doing things. Now I know what my goals are and my priorities and I want to go to that next step. But I have to make these changes to what I'm doing, whether it's how you spend money, how you save money, how you work, how you do whatever. How do you encourage because you don't want to be the one leading them by the nose, you've got other things to do and they don't want to pay for your time to sit there holding their hand for all of it. How do you help them implement those changes and solutions in their life. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (19:11) That's a great question. Again, one of our trainers mentioned that we are energy facilitators. We pretty much find that energy for clients to find how important it is to them. Not necessarily having this conversation with everyone, but one of the best motivators in life, unfortunately, is death. That our life is finite. So it is not going to go forever. So every other day is a less day from our life. That's one thing just to keep in mind. And you are absolutely right. In 90 % of situations, the obstacle in client's mind is either money or is them, he or she, herself or himself. So it's human. And two of our questions, interesting enough, I mentioned about three questions that I asked to clients. Two of them are connected to death. of course, like people can search George Kinder's three questions, it is available. But one of them is that you go to see your doctor and you have five to 10 years to live. But there is one thing certain, the doctor promises you that you will not get sick, so you will be able to do everything physically active, mentally active, but you have only five to 10 years to live. What are some things that you will start doing now? So they do think about this. Third question is a little bit more extreme. It says that this time doctor says that unfortunately we misdiagnosed you. This is your last day. What are some feelings that you will have? What are some things that you haven't done? You haven't been. What are some things in many cases people think about regrets? And another book comes to my mind. The Top Five Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware. And the top regret and Bronnie was a hospice nurse. If I pronounce it right, it is called palliative nurse. And she was asking about regrets to people who are in their literally deathbed. And the top regret that came that people mentioned, I wish I had the courage to live my life true to myself, not someone else's life. Because in society growing up, now I can see it. My daughter, I always mention she is my best teacher. Because right now I see how she is, but in the meantime, by every day passing, every month passing, every year passing, environment, society, parents, grandparents, friends, they are all making changes to this human being who was different when he or she was born. And in many cases, we take our teacher's way, our coach's way, our parent's way, our sister's way, our friend's way, Which is nothing wrong with that. They have their way. But then you have your unique way. There is no one that ever lived on planet Earth that was exactly like Marci or exactly like Ohan. So we are very different. I try to explain this to my clients, that our goals, aspirations, our dream life is different. And when you start talking about this type of conversations, in many cases, people realize. I call it, It is from very good friend of mine. He calls it midlife awakening instead of midlife crisis. When you just wake up and you're like, I should take ownership of my own life. I need to start doing something different. And when you give this space to people and they're realizing that how long it will take for me to write my book, to become a speaker, to start playing tennis, to take the dancing class, because people are kind of waiting to that one point in the future, which in many cases is retirement, when people are in their 60s, 62, 65, 67. And I wish everyone had that same energy, to do the activities that they wanted to do when they were young and capable of doing it. But always Italy comes to mind. For example, if someone like Italy is my dream destination for travel but I'll wait when I retired and then I go to Italy. In Italy, there are not many escalators and elevators. Mainly there are stairs. And I tell my clients, why are we waiting on that age to go to Italy if we can do it now. Maybe you go and you like it, so you can go back. But maybe you go and you're like, I was waiting for this because I saw it on the screen but it is not necessarily something I wish for. So I always remind my clients, let's do some of these activities as soon as possible. And that's the main thing about life planning. Life planning shortens the time to make your dreams into reality. Because many financial advisors or planners, when you go to see them, they do retirement planning. They prepare you for your retirement. But then time is now. Recently I have two conversations one is my neighbor, another one is a friend. Unfortunately on both their cases similar thing happened. Their fathers in both cases died at the age 62. The moment they retire which they were waiting for their entire life. Working nonstop day and night in many cases including weekends, just waiting for the retirement moment. But as we know, the future is not necessarily guaranteed. So these are some conversations I'm having with my clients for them to start taking ownership of their financial life, hence their life as soon as possible. Marci Grossman (26:01) Yeah, that's hard though because certainly when you are younger, you may not have money. You may not have extensive vacation time from your job. Certainly if you've moved for jobs, you find that some of your vacation time gets eaten up going back to what had originally been home if you still have significant family there. And of course, if you have children, you don't necessarily want to take a four-year-old traipsing up the stairs in Italy. So there is a balance, certainly, as you get older, hopefully, and things settle back down. You've got the money. You've got the security at your job to take that more time. I hear more and more of people taking gap years after high school, before college, or after college, or between jobs, or whatever else to do some of that traveling. It's always a balance. You have to pre-fund for retirement because you can't make the money then. But you don't want to do so much funding for retirement that you don't get a chance to live and enjoy while you're young enough to live and enjoy. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (27:10) Absolutely. I agree with you and it is not always that easy the way that we talk in theory. I absolutely agree with you. But in the meantime, I came across to many clients who can take that short term retirements or sabbaticals in many cases but they are looking for someone to give them the permission, someone who is financial, especially so can see the numbers like you are well off this speed that you are going with your savings and spending, you will be able to retire even earlier than you think or why you just don't talk the retirement right now if you are overwhelmed of your job or you are stressed just for you to reset and in many cases and by the way these words are not old for me they are new to me in many cases people don't have time to think about meaning and purpose. And there is Maslow's uh Pyramid Marci Grossman (28:16) Maslow's hierarchy, ⁓ Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (28:33) . Yes. And then if you don't have that bottom part of the pyramid, you will not think about meaning or purpose. There is no time for that. But I came across to many people who are showing good financial situation on paper. So you will think they will be happy and they will start thinking about meaning and purpose, but they are still not doing it. So on paper life is great, but then when you start asking questions, many of them, they are missing time with their kids. In many cases with their parents, with their friends, with their community. So these are some conversations sometimes come up. I know it can be in times dangerous. There are some situations when people just realize in like, this is not the job that I get fulfillment of. Maybe I get a pay cut, but I'll do something that truly fulfilling, that truly aligns with my beliefs and my values, what I want to accomplish in life. I understand in many cases it is not easy to accomplish certain things and I have compassion for that people, know, they are making living paycheck to paycheck. And for that, I used to be a money coach and there are great money coaches who will who will be able to help. You can read Marci's book. You will get so much knowledge about the basics that you need to at least have, the A, B and C. Everyone deserves a life plan, but then the clients should be on that mindset and also more or less financially to be ready to take that pivot, that U-turn to take in many cases because he or she need to afford their lifestyle. I always mentioned there is this saying, yes, you can borrow for education. You cannot borrow for your retirement. And there are some situations when clients come and they are parents, they want to save first for their kids' college but they don't put any money towards their retirement. These are again mindset type of questions because like I know and I love my daughter and all parents love their kids. But then when you are asking them some question realizing like what they want to accomplish in their life, their kids education is priority but they need some reminder that the worst-case scenario, you can borrow for that education if that's a priority for you, but you will not be able to borrow for your retirement. So maybe we start thinking about your retirement. But there are some people who already saved for retirement and they are in their 40s or 50s. They have enough to even retire right now, they can be financially free, financially independent, so to say. But in many cases, they never sit down and did the math just to understand why am I doing all this? Why I'm working and saving and why I'm doing all this? And our lives nowadays are so busy that people are just like day after day, just going for that work. So I want them to pause for a moment and just to think what I'm doing with my life. Marci Grossman (31:41) We could have a whole other conversation about what is wealth and how much you need for retirement and at what age you need how much. There are surveys and articles all the time. If you're this age you should have this much and if you're this age you should have this much and the average American at a particular age has this amount of money. But I assume you, like I, tell my clients how much you need for retirement depends on what you're planning on doing, your health, how long you're gonna live, a whole bunch of things we can't answer. And to me, one of the saddest things is when I have a client who is in their 70s or 80s and they are sitting on what would be more than adequate finances for them in retirement, but they're still living mentally in saving mode. So they're not even enjoying the money. You've worked all your life, you have saved all your life, you have done the right things that you are now at this age sitting on a significant chunk of change and they're still treating it as if they're living paycheck to paycheck. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (32:50) I believe that was defined by father and son and their last name is Collins's and that's I believe money hoarder that when they just hold the money. But there is one thing to learn how to save. Another thing is to learn how to spend. These are two different things that in many cases we don't talk about. We don't talk enough. And if someone grew up in scarcity mindset environment, then they are going to always save. And as you mentioned, maybe they don't spend just to see what happiness that money can bring in many cases for their kids, their families, their communities. Because money is energy. In many cases people confuse that money itself is energy, which I want to go a little bit more detail and I have in one of my blog posts I wrote about it. The things that you do with money brings energy. Money itself, if you put hundred dollar bill on the table and you come back after a year or two or three or five, it will sit there and just be there if no one stole it. Of course, the value will be lost because of the inflation. It will not be the same purchasing power. We know that. But then the dollar by itself will be just sitting there. Same it comes to your account until the moment you put that money in to use just to do something that will truly bring energy. And unfortunately, energy can be negative or positive. There are so many people who will spend money and do negative things with that. That's again energy. But there are so many people who will do great things with their money. And that's again energy. There is this saying, you know, Marci, I'm sure you heard that money amplifies who you are, compounds who you are. See, this is so great. Marci Grossman (35:01) Right. Well, Ohan, we should probably be wrapping up. Have you got anything you want to mention that maybe we haven't covered? Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (35:06) Yes. We can talk forever. I have that feeling with you. We can talk forever. We could have gone to other directions. One thing that I will suggest our listeners truly to think about that we are not here forever and our time is finite. I don't want to finish our conversation on the sad note, but I hope it will bring them more energy to do the things that they always wanted to do in their life. And do it as soon as possible. And if you need help, don't do it by yourself. If you need help, I'm sure you will find the right person for you. Marci Grossman (35:54) That's perfect and well said. Ohan, thank you so much for being my guest today. I appreciate you taking the time to join us here. Ohan Kayikchyan, Ph.D. (36:02) Thank you, Marci. Marci Grossman (36:04) To my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Ohan's information in the show notes. Please check him out He shares a lot of interesting information And don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this