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Succession Is A Verb: Why Building Leaders Who Outlast You Is The Real CEO Job - With Marcia Aaron · The Stronger Podcast

• 0:02
  Mike Montoya: Welcome to the Stronger Podcast. Each week, we have honest conversations with education and social impact leaders about their leadership and career journeys. We talk about their origins, inflection points, and the work that they're doing today. The conversations are honest, human, and practical. If you're here for real stories and real takeaways, you're in the right place.
• 0:27
  Let's jump in, and let's get stronger together. Today's conversation is with Marcia Aaron, partner at the Charter School Growth Fund, whose career path from finance to leading KIPP charter schools in Southern California reflects a deep commitment to expanding opportunity for kids. In this episode, we talk about why math still matters, what rural communities need most, and why succession planning may be one of the most overlooked responsibilities in leadership. Let's jump in. Before we dive into today's conversation, I wanna give a quick shout out to podcastsmatter.com.
• 0:59
  Their mission is to help impact driven voices get the visibility they deserve. If you want to share your message with the world, check out their website in the show notes. Good afternoon. Good morning to everybody out there in podcast land. I'm here today with my friend, colleague, confidant, Marcia Aaron, who I met in Los Angeles, I don't know, like circa 2006 or something roughly.
• 1:21
  And we've stayed connected in over time. So, Marcia, it's wonderful to spend time with you. Thanks for being here.
• 1:27
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. So happy to be here, and great to see you.
• 1:30
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. You as well. And we both we're we're both kind of West Western kids. We both grew up and stuck out West, but helping helping the audience to, like, basically know, like, where you're currently, like, operating from, and then what your, like, your your job, like, quote, unquote, right now is because, yeah, I know you do a bunch of stuff, but, like, what's what are the couple of main focuses for you?
• 1:51
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. So I I'm very fortunate to live just outside of Park City, Utah. So up in the beautiful Wasatch Mountains. And I work for Charter School Growth Fund and lead our investments in Texas, Arizona, Idaho and Utah. Our North Star is the growth of high quality charter public schools.
• 2:15
  So that's what I spend most of my time on and things I'm passionate about. I'm a rural kid from Oregon, so I'm really passionate about rural education. Math was, you know, my ticket to finance, so I'm passionate about math and we're way behind as a country in math. Then, you know, I believe really that succession planning and succession work is super important. And all three of those are very, you know, sort of personal things for me because of, you know, if you don't leave your org in a good place, what everything that you've done is for naught in my opinion.
• 2:56
  Mike Montoya: Right there. And you so some of these things are important to you because of your own experiences and then also, like, your what you lived through, right, as a as an operator. So for our audience to know, like, started out, you had a career kind of in finance, right, and and investments, right, as a after undergraduate. And then you, I call it made money and then went and did some great stuff with it. So tell me about the transition.
• 3:19
  Like what was the pull? What was the pull to move into? And then you became a charter school, founding ED and operator. So tell me about like how that happened? Like what was going on in your head and as a younger person then?
• 3:30
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. You know, I was at a firm and they laid off my whole team. And, you know, I was thinking about this the other day. What I once thought was the worst day of my life is probably the best day of my life. First of all, I wasn't on Wall Street on 09:11.
• 3:50
  I was at a you know, I was on a golf course to full transparency. And then I got to travel and that just opened my eyes. And in one of the countries that I visited, you know, someone said I needed to next phase of my life, I needed to make merit, which means, you know, do good for the world. And so it took me a while to get there, but
• 4:56
  Mike Montoya: It's a it's a great job because you get to you get to apply, in meaningful ways, right, these these powerful skill sets that you developed and experience, right, like the becoming a mentor, coach, supporter, right, of of younger operators and people that are kind of still in work in that day to day way is like, there's not enough kind of I call it knowledgeable people out there kind of helping lead and guide, KIPP and for our listeners that a lot of people know that Stronger worked with KIPP and has done so nationally, but KIPP Los Angeles, right, and KIPP Southern California was like, at once a small group of schools, that it really turned into a big group of schools, right? So that was part of your journey. What if you think about that period of time, Like, are there any column bright spots that you're like, particularly proud of? Know, like succession was one of them. So we'll talk about that secondarily.
• 5:49
  But in the in the interim, was there something else that was really, I don't know, like a false truth for you?
• 5:55
  Marcia Aaron: I think, you know, look, three of our schools became national blue ribbon schools. That was a huge bright spot because it meant that we were really providing the high quality education that students in East And South Los Angeles deserved. And then seeing where, you know, our alumni have gone and the success that they've had. And, you know, that's obviously part partly KIPP and then quite frankly, partly some of our partners like the Alliance for College Ready Public Schools or EDNOVATE, where we entrusted so many of our eighth graders to transition to. So that's the work.
• 6:37
  It's, you know, and then the last piece of that I would say is just the growth that team members realized, you know, both in their own leadership and management. And so many of our team members grew in their role. Many are, you know, working around the country in, you know, bigger roles than when they were with us. And, you know, my successor I hired as a as a school leader, and she moved up through the ranks and became director of academics and then CAO and then CEO. So
• 7:13
  Mike Montoya: That that that journey with with Angela. Right? So who I know well. Right? And I think I remember walking schools with you and her when we were doing some funding or something in Los Angeles and, and the I mean, just the brightness and enthusiasm, right, that exuded from the two of you about the potential, right, that that was in play, right.
• 7:32
  And I think my view is that you always have this, like, vision for like, for children. Right? That was based on some of what you you you experienced, right, as a kid. I don't know. What was your k 12?
• 7:44
  Did you have a good k 12? Was it like? Well, tell me what it was like.
• 7:50
  Marcia Aaron: And in fact, the elementary school that is where I grew up is in the sixth percentile, not the 96, the sixth. So and the part of, you know, part of my education journey is really about in seventh grade when they shut down the school district due to a lack of funding. And all of a sudden I realized, oh, this thing that, you know, you sort of take for granted went away. And that's the earliest roots of my advocacy work was, you know, marching on Salem. But I did not have a good I did not have a good program.
• 8:34
  In fourth grade I was a receptionist three days a week for my school. In sixth grade they sent me home three days a week to do science experiments which involved hydrochloric acid. Now why anybody would send a sixth grader home with hydrochloric acid is beyond me. But you know, this was back in the seventies. So I didn't quite understand the caustic effect of that.
• 9:00
  You know, in twelfth grade, I did concurrent studies at what is now Southern Oregon University and work study. So it wasn't I didn't have a great experience from that regard. I really where I felt like I had my best education experience was at Oregon.
• 9:18
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. So the the rigor was not there as a young person. And then and then you got to a university that has some substantive approach, And that really changed some some of the outlook and projection. So one thing we were talking before, like a little bit about the importance of math, both for your career, but also like, you know, what's happening with schools and kids in math now. And like, there's a lot of there was a whole time when, like, we're like, that's the new math, and there's a new thing.
• 9:44
  But, like, math is still basically math. Right? And this idea of, like, complex math is something that is, like, elusive to some school systems to do well. I remember my particular math teacher was, like, quite incompetent at at some things. And I'm like, there was, like, a the good math teacher, and then there was the other one.
• 10:01
  And just you just got lucky or not. Right? And so I got the nonlucky one. Right? So it did affect my math career.
• 10:07
  But like tell me what's going on with math now and like how you're thinking about math and why it's important.
• 10:13
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. So, you know, when we look at COVID, I think we were all just so afraid that kids wouldn't learn to read. We spent so much time and energy on that. And at the same time, we moved to more conceptual math and a lot of schools left behind things like math facts and math fluency. So you've got this conversion of we're not spending time on math.
• 10:39
  And then we've taken away some of the automaticity and just that core knowledge you need because it's very hard to ask a, you know, an eighth grader to do algebra if they can't figure out what seven times nine is and they don't just know, oh, it's 63. They don't have to count on their fingers or use a calculator. So we're going through a little bit of what happened with like the move back to science of teaching reading where we are trying to balance the conceptual with the direct instruction with the automaticity. And we see a few groups are still, you know, are operating at basically the same levels of proficiency pre COVID like a Harmony in Texas. Not surprising, they're a STEM school.
• 11:25
  Yeah. They're doing quite well. But our schools that are focused more on low income students, many of them, at least in Texas, are ten, twelve, 15 points below their proficiency levels pre COVID. So So we
• 11:40
  Mike Montoya: lost ground in some schools because of the re like, the rebalancing that, like, didn't happen right after COVID. There was, like, an overswing rate, a pendulum of sex.
• 11:49
  Marcia Aaron: Exactly. Exactly. So we're, you know, we're leaning in more on math. We've provided, you know, some grants to folks to think about, you know, how do we do math better for our students? How do we set our students up for in Texas?
• 12:07
  Our main math in the course exam is Algebra one. So how are we helping our portfolio get a lot stronger? So we gave a group, Raul Yzaguirre, a grant. And last year, they saw their overall math go up six points, but their algebra one pass rate go up 12 points. And something similar at YES Prep.
• 12:30
  So we're seeing signs of optimism, but it's going to take, you know, a while because we have so many students that were in that period where, you know, we didn't we walked away from doing direct instruction and the automaticity, at the same time providing, you know, those those more challenging, math opportunities for students.
• 12:56
  Mike Montoya: The stress things. Right? The kids that the things that, like, kids that kinda automatically can get it can do it better when they have the challenge, right, sort of in front of them. Right? Things like that.
• 13:04
  So well, in algebra, we know, I mean, I think the research that I remember without being specific is like, ability to do the critical thinking behind algebra, right, is like part of just like a basic life functioning in our higher order skill. Right. And that's a good, I call it indicator of success through college, right, and into life is having that higher order thinking that is associated with algebra. Now, probably causes the other and there's probably lots of debate about like exactly the cause, right? But like there's the necessity of getting kids to a certain level in order for them to call it get over the hump of like mediocre life to like high quality life.
• 13:41
  Right? Is that is that that's how I characterize this. You don't have to own that, but I'm I wanted to say to
• 13:45
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. The the research shows that algebra one success leads to collegiate success, which links to economic success. And I think in a world where we may not need algebra one to do math per se because we have AI and calculators and all this, but we need the critical thinking that allows us to think about algebra and calculus and, you know, all the other math that might be out there so that we can break down complex problems because AI is going to take a lot of the lower level thinking off the table.
• 14:26
  Mike Montoya: Yeah, for sure. And we become overly reliant. I think we get lazy when we don't use those skills, right? I mean, as adults. But like not having those skills, like actually is like a pretty significant deficit, right?
• 14:38
  To say that like, if you don't have the ability to like think in a higher order by the time you're like 15 years old, you're going to like always be struggling in many cases, right, with the next set of things in life. Is that that's I mean, that's basically the premise. Right? So
• 14:52
  Marcia Aaron: Exactly. Well, you know, and if you look at so many CEOs have engineering backgrounds. Now why is that? You know, if you go through an engineering program, problem solving is at the core Confluence. You're doing.
• 15:05
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. Yeah.
• 15:07
  Marcia Aaron: You know, to be in an engineering program, you've gotta be strong. Yeah. Math.
• 15:11
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. For sure. So I think that's true. And I think, like, you know, like, there's there's, there's this, I don't know, almost like it's almost in the atmosphere right there that's, that I hear they're like, well, college may not be necessary for everybody. Now, it may not even be valuable, right?
• 15:27
  Or it may not be have a good return on investment because of costs of higher ed versus like the returns in terms of career opportunities for first year, second year graduates, things like that. But the data doesn't actually bear that out, right? There's this The proof is that actually finishing a degree is still like the best economic mobile thing in The United States. Is that basically how you guys think about it too?
• 15:49
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. That's how I mean, that that is definitely how I think about it.
• 15:54
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. Yeah.
• 15:55
  Marcia Aaron: You know, I'm on the board of a higher ed institution. And I strongly believe, particularly coming from, you know, a rural community that you need that college degree and that still plays out when you look at all the data. And don't get me wrong, we we also need highly skilled craftsmen in this country and not everybody has to go to college, but we we like to swing and I worry that we'll over swing and then we'll have too many folks that, you know, are in the trades and not enough folks that actually can do this higher level thinking, that's going to be required, particularly.
• 16:38
  Mike Montoya: Well, and all these things are vulnerable. Like, if we if if we haven't learned the lesson about, like, over overweighting The United States in manufacturing jobs, for example, right, and how that can become highly vulnerable, right, with the I call it the decimation of most of the Northeast, right, and all the and the steel towns for the era, right? It's like, it's like, we should pay attention to that, right? Because whatever we're doing in the economy now is not going be the same in ten years or twenty years, right? So we still need a workforce somewhere in the picture, right?
• 17:06
  So plenty of work to be done there. So we were playing around with this rural ed thing. And, And this ties a little bit to current social circumstances that our country is into. But I think the data shows this as well, that schools in isolated locations or where there's smaller populations have fewer resources. And I call it less complexity and less rigor available to them, just like your own childhood experience.
• 17:35
  So that's true across the country. And so how how what are things that the growth fund is doing? I know in particular, Idaho is a place where like you guys have focused up ton of energy because there's so much in there. So like, what's exciting about what's going on in rural education in Idaho?
• 17:50
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. In Idaho, we have a couple different things that I think are really exciting. So one is we have, you know, traditional sort of brick and mortar groups like Elevate or American Classical Schools of Idaho choosing to operate in small towns. So American Classical Schools of Idaho is in Fruitland, which is right across the border from Ontario, Oregon. So it's Far Western Idaho, town of 6,500.
• 18:23
  And then they're going into an even smaller place up north, Bonners Ferry, which is actually, you know, sandwiched between Montana, Washington, and the Canadian border and opening a, you know, a traditional brick and mortar. So we see some of that. But the other thing that I think we see in Idaho, which is being led by Jim Pratt, is they have, first of all, a high quality online school. It's one of the, you know, top 25 schools in the state of Idaho and students are highly proficient. I think they're like 75% plus proficiency.
• 19:02
  And then, you know, Jim Pratt where they have teachers that are interested is starting to open what they call learning societies. And those are micro schools And they can operate they're doing sort of two types. One are in more rural communities like Emmett and, you know, Payette and some places like that. But then they're also, partnering interestingly enough with some D1 prep programs. Like there's a d one soccer program and a d one basketball program both in Boise and they're partnering with them.
• 19:39
  So they're offering, you know, students that might not get a high quality education because they're spending so much time on sports have this opportunity to get a high quality education. And American Classical Schools of Idaho is getting ready to open their hopefully first micro school as well in 2027. And that would allow them to go into places where, you know, they may not think they can open a full brick and mortar school or where like Haley, Idaho, which is very close to Ketchum where the costs are super high, know, they may not Ketchum, also known as Sun Valley, may not be able to afford to open a school, but there are families that really want a high quality option. So we're seeing a lot of that. You know, how do we go into smaller communities?
• 20:35
  In Idaho, half the students are rural and the lowest performing, you know, schools in Idaho are rural. So we're hopeful that they can be models for the rest of the country. And in fact, you know, we get folks reaching out saying, hey, tell us more about on. In Idaho.
• 20:56
  Mike Montoya: I just wanna say that if you're a leader, entrepreneur, or business owner who needs some support, there's an easy way to get a think tank behind you and your vision. The Genius Discovery Program at Thought Leader Path is like having your own one on one incubation and acceleratorship program. They'll help you develop an approach based on your own story and your plan for impact and offer the tools and thought leader assets needed to really amplify your message, including launching a podcast like this one. If you're ready to stop grinding in the dark and start making real impact with the right support, check out geniusdiscovery.org. Well, and I was like I I remember and I think there's some partners up in Idaho that will mention bluum.org, which is part of the like, basically, this education champion organization and helps kinda coordinate a bunch of the work, right, that 's partnered with both of We
• 21:41
  Marcia Aaron: work closely, and I'm on the board of Bluum.
• 21:44
  Mike Montoya: Right. Okay. So good. So people are all good friends and supporting each other. And then, of course, the Albertsons Foundation, which was fundamental in getting Bluum established.
• 21:52
  But now there's like CSP money and other and other continuous flows that are helping support the expansion plus the growth fund and others, right, that are leaning into, I call it, build on the innovation. It's like when they first started in Bluum, is probably like, I don't know, like 2010 or something like that. They ten years ago. Yeah. Okay, maybe not quite that long.
• 22:10
  So I remember I'm like, what's going on in Idaho? I was like, surprised. And now I've like, obviously become much more familiar with what's going on there. And then there's some like, really cool stuff, which I think can be models, for other countries, other cities, other states, and we've Stronger has, like, transferred some of the, like, how do you build fellowship networks, right, into Oklahoma, right, for example, right, which has, like, got a lot of similarities, Idaho, and is not at the same place in terms of innovation yet. Right?
• 22:35
  But it's got them the same, I call it, isolated populations with low quality options and mixed options and things like that. Plenty of work to do in the rural space in the country. I'm like, oh my gosh, we have plenty of work to do. Right.
• 22:49
  Marcia Aaron: Yes, absolutely.
• 22:52
  Mike Montoya: Well, people can learn more about and we'll put this in the show notes so people can learn more about the work in Idaho through Bluum and through the Growth Fund. There's a bunch of profiles and stuff that are out there. And then certainly, like Marcia's contact information is available that will make it possible for people to kind of connect with people there. But the other thing that we played with, right, and I'm going to kind of wrap this into your personal story of your time at KIPSO Cal in transition, which we talked about where you are in Angela and the succession planning. This idea of building a team that outlasts a single individual, right, and building an organization that outlasts a single individual.
• 23:32
  Right? Like, this has to do with board. It has to do with leadership. Right? It has to do with preparing people for the long game many years before, someone decides to make a transition.
• 23:43
  So tell me about how you thought about that and how you're kind of encouraging people to think about succession planning in the current state of affairs.
• 23:54
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. I think back in the good old days when we started Kipschokal, like none of us had done any of that work. And so we were all learning and growing. And seven years before I said I was leaving, I started to talk to my board about succession planning. And it wasn't just about an emergency plan, which is important, or who did I think, but it was more about who's on the team, where's the team strong, where does the team need to grow, and then what are the profiles of the people on the team and what are the learning plans for each of those individuals to help them learn and grow.
• 24:41
  As I've shared, you know, I think a team that is one, successful, two, where the people are learning and growing, that is a team that's gonna stick together. And I also love my friend down in Texas, Mark DeBella talks about Sort of three you know, you have three phases of your career. How you enter, what you do while you're there, and how you exit. And reality is if you exit and you're not leaving the org prepared, all that work that you've done, it's for naught because the organization will regress. And so I think the more that we can get leaders to be comfortable with that concept and develop their teams and then to have their teams develop their teams, the stronger and more enduring organizations will be.
• 25:41
  And at CSGF, we are starting to really lean into this space. And we just did a convening down in Texas where the key thing that came out of it is succession is a verb. And we want folks to be active about it and think about how do we continue to develop our next level of leaders so that the organizations can endure. And quite frankly, as you're developing those leaders, you're building internal capacity, which makes the organizations better. You're getting on a virtuous cycle.
• 26:19
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. With the improvement, getting better and healthier because the organizations like, you know, once you're on this course, you're not like it's not like a, oh, it's a straight, like set of rails, right? And there's no curves or changes, right? So people have to be able to be adaptive, right? And like that that the build practicing, right, in a team that is supportive of that, and that has, they call it some of the structures in place to develop new skills and expose people to new opportunities, gives you a better, I guess, better fighting chance for the stuff that comes.
• 26:47
  Because almost every year there's like another, I call it massive curveball or 10 that happened all at once. And then you're like, how are you dealing with this? And a single leader can't even anticipate that stuff. So you have to be prepared for like, and humans, and this is back to the higher order of thinking skills, humans are good at adapting when they aren't under too much pressure, but they've had time to kind of get into it together.
• 27:10
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. I I wish it was only I think I think, you know, operators would say, I wish it was only once a year that we
• 27:16
  Mike Montoya: I know. But the big ones I mean, like, this year's one the one that was interesting to me this year was, like, well, kids, students, high school kids in particular, protesting and leaving schools in response to the ICE immigration work that's happening across the country all over the place. And, like, it just wasn't something that people were, like, expected, but they're like, how do we support it? But how do we also deal with it? Right?
• 27:37
  And because it was like, you know and that was like, you know, December 23 or something like that. Whatever happens. Right? It's always at the worst possible time it feels like. So Yeah.
• 27:46
  That was my
• 27:46
  Marcia Aaron: Well, and, you know, I think the other big curveball is like, what happens to as there is a push to push people out of the country when we're already in a declining birth rate situation. Yep. What's the impact on schools and budgets and all of that?
• 28:04
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. It's like a it's like a constant it's like a it's a game that like takes a while to catch up on the financial side for people to kind of get to the new whatever normal is, right? That there's a bunch of declining enrollments in Chicago and Los Angeles and Denver and other places too, right? So that's like a real thing. Many places in Texas, I'm sure too.
• 28:22
  The I you know, I wanted to spend a little more time on succession planning. I appreciate the fact that you guys there's an effort at the Growth Fund to like work towards this. Stronger, of course, has an executive search function. And like people call us all the time to like solve the problem when it's kind of like the wrong it's like the it's like the last moment in this. Like we we try to like get boards to like take this seriously and get leaders to take succession planning seriously way ahead of time, but it never reaches the level of criticality until somebody's missing.
• 28:51
  Right? And so I haven't been super successful getting people to be like, take this seriously, plan into it. We try to build it in during strategic planning and things like that, but it kind of gets like pushed aside or or downgraded in terms of importance. So have you guys made progress on making the case around it?
• 29:10
  Marcia Aaron: Well, one way we're making progress, or maybe two ways. One is it's now a milestone in our grant agreement. So, we expect every organization to have an emergency succession plan and then to develop a longer term succession plan and to review that annually. And then we have, you know, we've paid for folks to partner with somebody or some groups that we're working with on succession planning with their board chair. So it's the CEO and the board chair.
• 29:48
  And I'll say again, one of my favorites is our pilot, one of our key pilots when we launched this was YES Prep. And at that time, Mark was like, you know, I'm probably I probably have one more year after this year. And so thanks to, you know, Daryl Cobb who suggested, hey, why doesn't Mark take a sabbatical? He took a six week sabbatical. They used it as a development opportunity for Phil and for Nella, and, you know, had real milestones and things that they were supposed to do while Mark was gone.
• 30:27
  And, you know, lo and behold, he came back. He was invigorated and excited. And so he is still there. Nella is now a CEO in Colorado doing great work. Yep.
• 30:42
  You know, define sort of the odds because so often outside hires are not, you know, don't make it through year two or three. She is a she is definitely a stand up there. And then now Mark has Carmen and Phil who he is actively developing because he does anticipate at some point in the next, you know, three, four years, he might transition out. And it's very public and it's very much in partnership with Carmen, Phil and the board and quite frankly, CSGF. And so we're working alongside them to try to, you know, make this, be hopefully, this will be another pilot that other folks lean into.
• 31:31
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. Well, I think and I'm assume we'll make sure we do some follow-up, content about this because they feel like there's people need to hear the story of it's why it's possible, why it matters, right, and as opposed to like the other version.
• 31:45
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. I mean, all the research, whether it's for profit or nonprofit shows, like, if your organization is in a good place, promoting from within, if you have strong candidates is the right way to go. And so I feel it's very I feel like one of the main jobs of the CEO besides vision and direction setting, driving performance is the development of the people. And so I feel like if you don't do that work, you know, you're you're not really fulfilling your role as a CEO.
• 32:20
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• 32:46
  Head to booksthatmatter.org and get the custom support you need on your book idea or manuscript. Yeah, it's a serious job, that part of developing others, including the developing of others that may end up leaving to go to another place because the field is super small, right? I mean, a lot of kids being served, a lot of organizations, but like, we all know each other pretty much in some way or another. And so opportunities that support the growth of the sector matter as well, right, not just that single organization. So sometimes people get afraid about like, oh, I'm developing and investing all this energy into this human that may leave, and maybe they will leave, but maybe they will not.
• 33:25
  Right. And if you do it with multiple people, you end up with like a really good bench of potential, right. Do you feel like you didn't you didn't start out as the CEO of a charter network? Right? You didn't like I call it show up born ready to do that.
• 33:38
  So like, how did what were like one or two things that really helped me like learn learn to be successful there?
• 33:45
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. You know, first of all, I had cousins across the country. Right? I was part of KIPP. And I will say I learned a lot from Susan Schaeffler, who's just leading KIPP DC.
• 34:01
  She used to let me come every year and, you know, learned from her. My Greek colleagues, Beth and Rhonda, Beth running Kip NORCAL, Rhonda running Kip NOLA. We all sort of grew up together. And then, you know, Mike, right? Who was at Kip Foundation at the time, you know, he had the had the misfortune of working with all of us and it was not an easy job, but he he stayed the course and helped us all learn and grow. And I took I took, you know, and quite frankly, my team gave me a lot of grace.
• 34:38
  Right? I mean, I had quasi managed people when I was in investment banking, but the reality is, you know, it's such a high pace, high powered, high paying role. Like if someone wasn't doing the job, you didn't really develop them. You just fired them and got somebody new. Right?
• 34:56
  That's not the way it works in nonprofit, you know. So I learned a lot, from my team and, and tried to, you know, invest a lot in my own personal development to learn the world of education, to learn how to manage people. Trust me, I have, like, there are some really bad things I learned along the way.
• 35:19
  Mike Montoya: Learning by experience. You're like, oh,
• 35:20
  Marcia Aaron: I didn't do that. I'd have to be at a bar to talk about it.
• 35:24
  Mike Montoya: I didn't do that well. Well, and so you can offer like the blanket apology of like, hey, I was imperfect, you know, in general, think that anytime someone's new at anything, right, we I mean, we learn just by experience, right? Even if you went to graduate school for a thing until you do it, you don't really do it until you do it like five times. You're not great at it, right? Or something like that.
• 35:48
  So the journey through is always a little bit bumpy. I think there's grace here, Marcia, at least.
• 35:54
  Marcia Aaron: I hope so.
• 35:56
  Mike Montoya: But that said, it's important, though, it's important, like, and maybe the comment is to say like, hey, as members of boards, and as leaders of organizations, like, we owe it to each other to be supportive, encourage each other, expect a lot out of each other and the same time be gracious because whenever you're in that CE want the same, right? And you would benefit from the same.
• 36:22
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. I do think about that supportive piece a lot where, you know, education is under a lot of scrutiny, a lot of attack. You know, the more leaders can lean in and support each other, you know, back in LA, we created the LA Coalition of Excellent Public Schools and designed to be an advocacy work. But quite frankly, was, I think the one of the best parts of it was it built trust among a bunch of us. Then when COVID happened and nobody wanted to talk to us at either the district or the state or the county, you know, we had that trust among each other to be like, hey, what are you doing?
• 37:04
  Are you doing this? I'm doing this and, you know, that mutual support. So I think the more, you know, folks in whether it's at higher ed or K-twelve, you know, locking arms and supporting each other rather than letting folks be peeled off one by one. I highly recommend that.
• 37:32
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. Need Right? And I think like the the Bay Area has some kind of similar kind of coalition of folks, right, that people rely and trust each other. And I think Idaho has something as well, right, that people have learned they call it they learn to build, like, call it relationship dynamics that are necessary. Right?
• 37:47
  You don't have to be best friends with everybody and agree on everything. But there's this, like, idea that you're in the boat. You know, sometimes we're bailing the water together, sometimes rowing together, things like that. Right? So those are powerful.
• 38:00
  There's an ego check. Right? I don't know if this is true. But, like, at least in my view, right? Like, it requires leaders to both be like, vulnerable with each other and also recognize that they don't have all the answers right by them by themselves.
• 38:13
  Right? So I don't know if that's a reflection that you want to comment on, but that's good enough. Think about this.
• 38:18
  Marcia Aaron: No. I think that's absolutely right. Particularly when times are tough, you know, building those networks, whether they're informal or formal, and then supporting each other. Right? Like in California, renewals are political.
• 38:34
  It's one of the things I love about Texas. Renewals are not political. They're not political, you know, in Utah. So, you know, we don't have to worry about those things. And I think in a in a world where politics matter, leaders standing up for other leaders are really important.
• 38:52
  Yeah. And one of the best things we accomplished in LA Unified was, you know, Dan Katzir, Emilio Pack, myself, you know, and a couple others. But really the three of us saying, you know, we have these California distinguished schools, National Blue Ribbon schools that are up for renewal, and we're not going to accept the terms that were being offered. And we were able to make progress because we locked arms and it wasn't just KIPP. It wasn't just alliance.
• 39:23
  It wasn't you know, there were a bunch of us and we won wins for the entire sector. And there were people that were like, didn't wanna lock over.
• 39:32
  Mike Montoya: Happened. Yeah. For sure. Part of it. Yeah.
• 39:34
  That's for sure. Well, because, I mean, like, there's I mean, California is a really challenging political context for charter schools right now. There was a moment when it was, like, less
• 39:44
  Marcia Aaron: remember those days.
• 39:49
  Mike Montoya: Back in the moment, but I mean, it's, there's this like, it's almost like there's a complex right between the public schools and the traditional schools and the charter schools and like, like, because there's resources, and we're competing for kids and dollars that are associated in like, who's doing a good enough job. And, you know, like, don't, I don't say it that much, but I'll say it like here is that like, you know, like, none of the school systems are that are are doing well enough that all kids are having extremely exceptional opportunities, right? Like, most kids end up with a couple of choices, or no choices. And then there's a few shining examples of kids that, you know, the top 10% that are getting a plethora of options and choices. Right?
• 40:30
  So we have a lot of space, right, where we can continue to get better, right, as a school system, not just a single, you know, unit operating one single school, right? Because these Blue Ribbon schools are incredible. And it would be better if we had 10,000 of them, right? Versus not, right? And that's where the that's where the challenge is for all of us to be more cooperative and be more willing to share and to learn and to, I call it, up level ourselves, right, as as operators.
• 40:58
  So what are you looking forward to in '26? I mean, we're already into q, almost I call it q two back to the old reporting moments. Right? Like, we're headed into the second quarter or the back, the tail end of a school year. Right?
• 41:10
  But, like, what are you looking forward to in the rest of this year? And, like, what are you excited about in the in the next couple months?
• 41:16
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. I'm I'm looking forward to, you know, 2026 results. I think my portfolio, like folks are really leaning in hard and going back to what we know works, which is, you know, data driven instruction, being really clear about what our outcomes that we desire and aggressively progress monitoring. So I'm really excited about that because I think we're going to see some continued good gains from our portfolio. And then I'm excited, CSGF, we're wrapping up fund four and heading into fund five and really trying to work on how do we think about growth and quality hand in hand and think about not just relative performance, but absolute performance, which was always for me, like, I don't want to be the, you know, I don't want our schools to be the best in the inner city.
• 42:17
  I want our schools to be best, you know, in the county, in the state. Yeah. We're, you know, starting to lean in there and think about that a lot more. So those are things I'm looking forward to.
• 42:31
  Mike Montoya: The key ones. Well, I love the relative versus absolute performance piece, because this is at Broad at the foundation, when I was there, there was always a the Broad Prize, and there was a growth number, and there was a performance number. And they're really hard. Educational data is messy, right? It's super hard to like, get it exactly right.
• 42:46
  And who's causal doing things like that. But all that to be said is that having excellence goals by the measure of international standards, right, or in comparisons to the full national scope is politically dangerous because it shows, I call it a bright light on the spots that we have work to do. Right? So I appreciate places like the Growth Fund for I call it, when you guys have the mantle, in order to be able to say some of the stuff that people have a hard time believing. So hopefully, we can hear more of that.
• 43:15
  Because I think when people first learn about the opportunity gap or the achievement gap, like, they're shocked because most Americans don't really recognize how big of a distance there is between like, most kids and like, you know, elite kids, right? And that's something that I think everybody should know more about because most of us had like just an okay education, right? We weren't really given tremendous opportunity really.
• 43:38
  Marcia Aaron: Agreed. And in Texas, folks at Fort Worth Education Partners have been championing something called go beyond grades and really trying to help families see, is my child actually on grade level or not because we find there's a disconnect between grade level grades and proficiency. Know, and I think things like that will be helpful for folks to understand, particularly when they themselves may not have had access to a high quality education.
• 44:11
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. They're like, it was good enough for me. So it's like good enough because it's
• 44:14
  Marcia Aaron: Yeah. Know, we've all seen the surveys, right? Like education's not good, but my kid's school is amazing. And that's just not
• 44:23
  Mike Montoya: true. Exactly. That's not true. Yeah. And I think that's, like, it's a hard pull to swallow, but how good is a good enough and, like, what is necessary is kind of a public decision, right?
• 44:33
  And certainly a parental one, but I think people need to be, I think, more aware and more informed about this. And then maybe more of us can get behind reforms and improvements that are possible, that are necessary to of up level everybody. I do feel like there's so much amazing data about, hey, kids that graduate college contribute so much just from an economic standpoint without judging this in a way of like, hey, economics is the end all be all things. But they produce more for society because they have greater capacity and skill sets. And that's just like a given.
• 45:12
  And it is out.
• 45:12
  Marcia Aaron: So we're happier, they're more likely to vote. You know,
• 45:18
  Mike Montoya: yeah, some
• 45:18
  Marcia Aaron: key things that I think are really important for the health of a robust democracy.
• 45:23
  Mike Montoya: Yes, yes, the whole back to the democracy thing. So now we're getting close to the scary part about our life right now. We'll steer out of that. But like, you know, like, what it is education and capitalism, right, have really up leveled the opportunities in the world, right, to help us to expand, as humanity and society. And like, there's less people in poverty, while there's, I don't know, like percentages of less people in poverty than there ever has been in the history of the world.
• 45:48
  So like, we're kind of doing it right, but we got plenty of work to do, right. So I think both of us who have, I call it influence, right in positions of power, right, we should do we be yielding it as for good if we can, I think so? Do you have I like to end I like to end with this, because I always feel like there's, I don't know if there's a I know, I don't know if you have children, but if there's a younger version of yourself that you think about, and you're like, hey, if I knew this, then what I know now, is there anything that gives a negative wisdom that you would be like, hey, next generation, I call it generation Z or generation alpha, right? That is in the wings here like that in terms of their communication and thinking for them. Great pup.
• 46:35
  Marcia Aaron: Sorry about the dog. I
• 46:37
  Mike Montoya: think let
• 46:40
  Marcia Aaron: me close the door. Hopefully, it'll be quiet. All right. I would say I would say new challenges as opportunities. I go back to thinking about what I once thought was my worst day became my best day on reflection.
• 47:01
  And so how do you, do you use challenges as opportunities? How do you try to ignore the noise out there? Right? Like less time on devices and more time with people. I think we spend way too much time looking at this as a, you know, looking at a phone as opposed to trying to engage truly with other people.
• 47:25
  And that's ultimately what is, I think, you know, can lead to a happier life is those connections. And everything says, you know, as someone who's aging, right, the way you age better is through social connection. And we've got to get back there.
• 47:40
  Mike Montoya: Yeah. I think that's a good that's a good point. The the Bowling Alone book and Social Capital Work, came out in like the nineties, right, or something like that is the most relevant in this conversation. And it matters for people to think about how they want to be with each other. Because that's really your society, is the connections you have with each other and with the humans.
• 48:00
  And I appreciate you sharing challenges and opportunities, right, to take advantage of them because we get through most of them, but it takes some work and investment into it.
• 48:10
  Marcia Aaron: It does. It does. Yeah.
• 48:12
  Mike Montoya: Marcia, I appreciate you for the work that you've done and the work that you're doing and the work to come. I mean, could spend hours having these conversations. So thank you for taking the first entree with us and for the leadership you're doing and and for sharing some of the stories of some of the the network that you're working with.
• 48:30
  Marcia Aaron: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure.
• 48:32
  Mike Montoya: Alright. We'll see you very soon. Marcia reminds us that real impact is not just about building something strong in the moment, but about leaving it stronger for the people who come next. Whether she's talking about math, rural access, or succession planning, this conversation is a powerful call to lead with both urgency and long term vision. Thanks, Marcia.
• 48:51
  Have a great day. Thanks for joining us and tuning in today. To find out about other podcasts that matter, visit podcastsmatter.org. Thanks for listening to The Stronger Podcast. If this conversation inspired you, we invite you to follow the show and share it with someone who's on a journey to become a happier and healthier version of themselves.
• 49:15
  Links and resources are in the show notes. See you next Thursday, 9AM eastern time. Have a great day, and stay strong.