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People Pleasing Is Making You Sick! · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Many of you probably know that we're always interested in
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: getting your suggestions for podcast topics. If you'd like to
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: submit a topic, you can go to our website and
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: under the menu item podcasts or drop down menu, one
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: of those is submit a topic. So today's episode is
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: one that we took from one of your suggestions. We're
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: going to be talking about people pleasing. I thought this
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: was just a really terrific topic. So people pleasing is
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: a pattern of repulsively, over-accommodating, attending to other people's needs,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: not attending to your own needs, looking for acceptance, approval,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: to avoid conflict. And a little bit of it may
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: be a good thing, but too much of it certainly
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: gets in our way and prevents us from engaging our
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: own individuation process. So we're going to be, as we
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: like to do, circumambulating that topic today.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: I think that key word there is feeling compulsed, feeling
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: that there are some psychological factors inside of us that
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: are driving us to be people-pleasing that may be fear-driven
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: or trauma-driven or have some other elements inside of us
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: that are not necessarily aligned with our natural way of
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: being and therefore become something worth being curious about.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: What I think about often, What is the feeling when
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: somebody comes over or you have an obligation or whatever
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: it might be? What is the feeling that you're having?
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: Is it the feeling of, oh my gosh, I just
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: have to do this or it's on my list or
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: I need to run to the store, I need to manage?
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: Check your stress level and check that sense of obligation
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: and duty and service and what you think you have
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: to provide or be especially sure to be on time
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: or whatever that might be. Where's that coming from in you?
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: Is it coming from a place of, oh my gosh,
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: I can't wait to, you know, I'm going to make something,
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: I'm going to cook something, I'm going to have fresh
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: cookies available. Is this great? Or is it coming from Oh,
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: you know, I got to get ready. I need to
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: straighten out the house. I better dash to the store,
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: make sure everybody has something to eat and something to drink.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: Just little litmus tests about what's going on inside because
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: it's a clue to whether you're orienting to the people
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: and pleasing them. Duty, obligation, should, must do it versus
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: a feeling of expansiveness. or creativity, or that this is
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: going to be really fun.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a values-driven kindness we also can find in
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: ourselves that's coming from the soul. And then there's these
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: other intrusive demands, whether they're coming from the outside or inside,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: that are something else.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all the different variations, and there is
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: that more just kind of almost characterologic sense a tendency
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: to people-please. For some of us, it may just be
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: the way we've always been. We may do it very
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: unquestioningly and unthinkingly. We may not even know another way.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: And it can be, and I think this is to
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: your point, Deb, it can really be depleting to do
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: that rather than kind of giving us energy. So it
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: could be that if we've always been a people-please or
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: at some point we sort of we sort of hit
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: a wall and we realize it's really not paying off. But,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: you know, let's talk about this, um, idea of agreeableness because, um,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: and Joseph, I know you know more about this than
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I do. You know, scientists have sort of cataloged major
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: characterological traits and, and one of the, they're, they've come
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: up with a big five and one of them is agreeableness. Now,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: agreeableness is not exactly the same thing as people pleasing,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: but I, I think there's, um, Maybe there's some overlap there.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Are there neighbors or something? So tell us about that.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: In the evolution of that Big Five personality test, and
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: they were researching common traits and deciding which traits they
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: would monitor and which traits they would set aside, as
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: they were establishing this, they noticed this cofactor of agreeable
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: versus disagreeable just seemed to show up spontaneously as they
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: were doing their calculations. And it happens so frequently that
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: they stumbled into this realization that this is a trait
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: that really defines and influences a number of other aspects
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: of personality. So a couple of ways that these particular
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: researchers were looking at agreeability. They were saying that there's
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: an aspect of trust in it, straightforwardness, altruism, compliance, modesty,
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: and tender-mindedness. And this could be broken down into two
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: different categories. One is just compassion, that people who are
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: particularly agreeable may notice that they are deeply influenced by
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: the suffering of others, and that makes them want to
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: address it and also carefully not add to the distress
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: or suffering of another person, that can make them adopt
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: a very agreeable stance. Another element which I think is
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: more complicated is politeness. When somebody feels that they must
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: be agreeable because that's the rule, that's the norm. The
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: rule is to not come across as aggressive. The rule
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: is to always appear fair. And these two Ways of
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: looking at it mix together to create a particular intensity
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: of trait. I think that as a characteristic of personality,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: it's neither good nor bad. It's an observational thing. We
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: see it in ourselves, we see it in other people.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: It's more or less dominant, but it seems to have
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: a big effect on the individual.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: In my book, The Vital Spark, I have a whole
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: chapter on agreeableness. And, you know, one of the things
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: about agreeableness is that in that big five personality test,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, there's a lot of data there.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: And I think it's been, it's my understanding is that it's, yeah,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: it's pretty robust. And one of the really consistent findings
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: is that in general and across cultures, women score higher
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: in agreeableness than men do. And we could have this
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: argument about whether that's nature or nurture, but there it
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: is across cultures, like not just here, you know, but
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: in all kinds of different environments. In general, on a
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: population level, women tend to be more agreeable than men.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: And this, as you said, Joseph, it's kind of neutral.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: There's some great things that go along with being agreeable.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: And maybe there's some not so great things. But it
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: is interesting that it tracks more with women.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: What I'm thinking about is agreeableness. I mean, that's the
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: price of growing up, being in a family, being enculturated.
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: We all have to develop a persona. We all have
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: to develop a social veneer that serves us. It's like
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: the cornea of the eye. It keeps out the dirt
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: and the grit and the specks, and it allows us
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: to see out safely. gives us a safe place to
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: be when we're interacting with classmates, workmates, heaven for a family.
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: It's a good thing that we develop it. And we
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: learn these things. To be polite, you raise your hand
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: in class. So to some extent, we have to learn
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: to be somewhat agreeable in order to be socialized in
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: a way that's rewarding and satisfying to us. So agreeableness
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: is one thing, and people-pleasing is, I think, when we
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: sacrifice something that is authentically ourselves in order to put
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: the other person first or please or flatter or some
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: other thing, that there's something different, whether it's just a
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: little tinge of something or it's way over the top.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: We're giving something away of ourselves, our authentic selves. Is
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: it judicious? Is it in the service of getting something
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: done in the moment? Or is it a characterological trait
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: where I always do that? You know, whatever my boss wants,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: I always do that. I always stay late. I always
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: work on the weekend. And that takes agreeableness into a
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: slightly different territory.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Well, it's almost like if you tend to be agreeable,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: you might have to learn how to sometimes be disagreeable, right?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: I tell this story in The Vital Spark about when
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: I was in my 20s and I had this older friend.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: She was probably in her 50s at that point. And
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: she was a really great cook and she had this
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: great apartment and she used to invite a bunch of
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: us over and she would make these great dinners and
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: we'd be sitting out on her roof deck eating and
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like great food and it's a great dessert.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: And the first time I went over, we'd finished dessert.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: We're up on the roof deck. You know, the stars
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: are out. I'm having a glass of wine and she
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: comes up. Her name was Terry. She comes up and
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: she says with a smile on her face, she goes, OK,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bed. So it's time for you to leave. Oh,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and I was like, what? I couldn't believe it. Like
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: she just kicked us out. But I was so flabbergasted.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: But then sort of after I got over my shock,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: I was like, That is so cool. You know, that
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: you could just, she wasn't really, to your point, Deb,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: like she wanted to offer us this wonderful evening and
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: she wanted to cook for us. It was so generous.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: But then she wanted us the fuck out of there
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: so she could go to bed, which I now so
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: relate to. So I loved her just being able to be,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: not feeling like she had to sort of think about
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: us all the time.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: I think that's a great little litmus test of here's
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: this person that has the energy, the generosity, the expansiveness
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: of spirit to invite you over. And it was energizing,
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: you know, for her to have company and we'll do
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: this and here's this and have some bounty. And then
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: when it became depleting, she was able to say, sorry,
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: you know, now my energy is going down. I got
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: to go to bed.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Goodbye.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: Of when is it energizing and when does it start
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: to become burdensome and depleting?
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: And so in terms of coming back to some of
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: the information around the big five, is that agreeability generally
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: cultivates higher levels of trust, collaborative problem solving, less counterproductive behavior,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: stronger team cohesion, more pro-social acts. They're also in other
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: environments that say very high conflict jobs or you're in
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: a very zero-sum kind of environment. Very high agreeableness can
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: depress the individual gains and lower agreeableness can aid in
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: really tough negotiations and the enforcement of norms. So it's
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: context-dependent as to whether or not The agreeable or the
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: disagreeable energy, if we think about it that way, is
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: the right approach. But overall, I think what we're saying is,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: are we conscious of it? I mean, if somebody is
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: agreeable without even thinking about it, and then at the
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: end of the day, they're asking themselves, why did I
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: agree to this? You know, I said I'm going to
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: do these four things, and I'm going to drive everybody,
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to cook this. How did I get
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: to all of these yes statements? regarding all of these
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: things and that can be a habitual agreeable attitude which
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: can be costly if we're choosing thoughtfully to align with
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: someone or something that can actually be a very positive
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: experience and as you were saying Lisa to be able
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: to take hold of that energy inside of ourselves and
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: to put out what's true I'm I'm not going to
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: agree to this, but I can agree to that. And
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: that allows everyone to be visible in the space.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you make it sound easy, but it
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: isn't always easy. If you tend to be a kind
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: of agreeable person who's a little conflict avoidant, doing that
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: can be very, very frightening. But I agree with you,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: it's something to work toward. One of the things I
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: think about, and I think I'm just amplifying what you
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: were just saying, Joseph, is what's your point of reference
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: when you're making a decision about what you're going to
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: do or how you're going to answer someone? Are you
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: just focused on that other person or are you checking
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: in with yourself and finding out about how you feel?
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: And this is where I think we can think about
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: this in terms of individuation. Because if you are taking
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the time to check in with yourself, and it goes
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: to the consciousness part, where is your compass about how
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: you want to spend your time, what your values are,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: what matters to you? Are you taking that into account?
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Or are you only referencing what the other person wants?
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, of course, in the short term, it can
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: be a real pleasure to meet another person's needs. further
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a goal. Like you said, there's all these potential benefits,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: better relationships. But over a lifetime, if you never step back,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: take stock, what is it I want? What feels right
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: for me? Does this reflect my true feeling on the subject?
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Is this in line with my values and beliefs? Am
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I compromising myself? in acceding to this or in meeting
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: this other person's needs, then we're really not following our
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: own path. And, you know, Jung kind of talks about
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: this in a sort of indirect way in Memories, Dreams, Reflections,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: his autobiography. He basically says at the end, I was
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: not very agreeable. I did whatever I wanted to do.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I was pulled along and I know I hurt people.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: But I had to do my own thing. I simply
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: had to do it. And the truth is that if
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: you're not going to be agreeable all the time, if
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: you're not going to be a people pleaser, you're going
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: to piss some people off. You're going to hurt people.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: You're going to inconvenience people. And that's just something that
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: you're going to have to take on board. And for
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: some of us, that's hard.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's such a really good point. I
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: like your reference. I'm going to go back and reiterate it.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: Of what is your point of reference? Is it what
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: I need, how I feel, what my values are? Am
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: I here in my interior? Or is my point of
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: reference the exterior of what my family members want and
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: expect and need? or my boss or anyone, whoever it is,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: that I just automatically kind of fall over. I think
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: of it as leaning forward so far. You sort of
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: fall in to the other person's field and automatically agree.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: Where's your point of reference? And it can be both.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be one or the other. What
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: this other person wants and needs does matter. I hear it.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I'm listening. I'm taking it in. and considering it. And
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: then what I want, what I have to give today,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: or should I work this weekend? All those things. Can
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: you step back and really kind of think about it?
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: But I also want to kind of take this, our
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: conversation into the realm of what can happen in a
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: family where maybe things aren't so great, that there's a
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: kind of relational dynamic and even relational trauma that can
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: spark a kind of people-pleasing that is deeper, maybe tinged
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: more with need and a kind of automaticity, et cetera.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: And in that context, I just read a wonderful book
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: that's coming out in March called The Littlest Princess, or
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: The Princess Who Found Her Name by Dale Kushner. So
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: keep an eye out for that. It will be published
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: by Chiron. And this is a woman, Dale Kushner, who
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: wrote a fairy tale about a princess who became Princess
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: Please Her because her mother, the queen, wanted another child
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: in order to preserve her own feeling of vitality and
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: youth and being a wonderful, needed young mother. The littlest
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: princess's older sister was very jealous because mom paid more
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: attention to the new baby and the little girl than
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: the older girl. And then she says the littlest princess
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: grew more and more confused. It was unthinkable that her
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: older sister did not love her, so she didn't let
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: herself think it. Instead, another thought popped into her head.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: My sister is displeased with me. I must be displeasing.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: I must try harder to please her. I don't think
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: this dynamic is unfamiliar to people. And to some extent,
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: there's a reality base in it that we have to
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: earn someone's love. We have to be pleasing. We have
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: to do what they want. And I think we all
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: learn that very young. Like, you know, use your knife
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: and fork. Don't eat with your hands. Or there will
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: be interactional, interpersonal consequences from some parent at the table
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: telling you to do that. Versus that place where it
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: becomes self-blame, it becomes habitual, it becomes... a retroflective thing
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: that you just swallow and gulp down what you feel,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: what you need, what you want, because the price of
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: not doing that is rejection or abandonment of some kind
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: from the other, that other that we all need early on,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: and we're social animals. So I think I'd like to
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: talk a little bit about that, of the desperation and
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: how it gets kind of bread in the bone if
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: that was the price that you had to pay for
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: relationships in your family of origin.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: So when I'm listening to that, Deb, I'm thinking about
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: the kind of family dynamics that cultivate a dependent narcissism. Narcissism,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: I think, is widely misunderstood by the TikTok pundits of
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: the world. But narcissism is a problem with the way
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: people perceive themselves. Their image of themselves becomes disconnected to
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: the deep, deep layers of their soul. And the image
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: of the self becomes overly influenced by whether or not
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: we are pleasing to our parents. And if we're raised
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: in a home where being pleasurable to the parent is
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: the dominant demand, then the child loses contact with their
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: own interiority, their own instincts, their own needs, and everything
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: is in orbit to the look or the voice of
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: the parent that is making these demands. And so the
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: child is trained to feel that they're only okay when
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: they are reflecting what the parent needs, demands, wants, approves of.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: And that sets up a context that later in life,
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know who I am, I don't know what
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I want, but I know how to stare at another
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: person and just nod in order to have a sense
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: of value in myself. All genders are vulnerable to that.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: That's a rather extreme circumstance, but it's substantial. And underneath it,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: to be honest, is a covert contract that I will
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: provide whatever it is that pleases you and that you
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: will then like me, love me, keep me safe. And
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: more perniciously, you will anticipate my needs without my having
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: to say it and meet those needs. Of course, it
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: never really works out. So the person who has a dependent,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: narcissistic nature is often harboring a vat of anger and
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: rage and resentment because the unconscious contract never gets executed.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: I'm doing everything that I think will please you, but
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I don't seem to be getting anything. much back and
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: I don't feel like I'm being taken care of or
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: my needs anticipated. And that creates a kind of war
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: that erupts and leads to passive aggressive behavior.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: There's a lot that you both just put out there.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: So I think I'm trying to synthesize it. I think,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: you know, both of those dynamics are very big dynamics.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And just to kind of go back to Deb for
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: just a second. you're really sort of talking about a
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: kind of trauma-based people-pleasing that can look like fawning, you know,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: or at least that's what I hear in what you said,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: you know, that one of the trauma responses is fawning.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bend over backwards, make myself totally vulnerable
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: to you and do whatever you want. And we can
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: use that as a habitual style of relating when we've
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: had people sort of relational trauma in childhood, which I
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: think is what you're describing, Deb. And it's heartbreaking. And
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: it goes back to kind of where you started at
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: the top today, Joseph, that, you know, when we talk
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: about the most extreme version of people-pleasing, it's really, it
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: is compulsive. It's a kind of compulsive behavior. And I
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: think it's often associated with dynamic that Deb just lifted up. Joseph,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I just I feel like what you brought forward is
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: so important and I think so familiar to many of
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: us that we've all probably interacted with someone who seems
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: like he or she is all about doing whatever we want,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: but we feel something else in the field and it
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: is the influence of that, and I like how you
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: put it, that kind of, that covert contract thing that
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: we're not even conscious of and the other person's probably
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: not even conscious of. So it can be confusing to
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: be around someone who has what we would say this
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: kind of dependent narcissism because they seem very lovely. But really,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: there is a kind of effort to control or manipulate
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: that's implied in the interactions.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: You feel it. There's a kind of coercion going on underneath.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: But I also think, you know, if the relational dynamic
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: early on has not really been in favor of a
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: child supporting a child's coming into a sense of him
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: or herself, and the price of parental or other adult
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: approval is to be like this or to be like that,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: to perform well or to be cute. or to be
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: quiet and sit over in the corner and not have
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: any wants or needs, it goes in very deep because
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: that is the price of relationship. And a child needs
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: that so badly that they'll do almost anything to get
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: it because they're little, adults are big, At some level,
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: they know, you know, they depend on connection, approval, care, safety,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: all the rest of it from adults. And when that
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: is missing, it can go into people pleasing. And the
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: historical variant on this that I have, we're talking a
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: lot now about COVID and what happened to kids who
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: couldn't do what kids need to do, get outside and
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: play and do peer relationships and all that stuff. They
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: had to conform. They had to stay in. They had
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: to do school online. And so there was a kind
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: of forced people-pleasing inherent in that. During World War II,
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: when London was being blitzed and thousands of kids were evacuated.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: That's what happened in that children's story, The Lion, the Witch,
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: and the Wardrobe. And when kids were interviewed, child after
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: child after child who'd been sent away for their safety
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: to live said, it's because I wasn't a good enough
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: boy or a good enough girl. So it goes deep
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: in us. that if I am good enough, whatever that
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: might mean in an individual context, then I will get
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: the approval, the love, the care, the attention that I need.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: And sometimes the trauma, as with the blitz of London
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: during World War II, can't be helped. COVID could not
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: be helped. But there is a price of having to
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: having to find a way to connect that has to
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: do with conforming, constricting, and being over-oriented to the new
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: external world circumstances. And then we have to take stock
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: later on and start to reflect and become aware and
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: engage in our own development and individuation.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: So one piece that we could look at is, an
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: idea that Winnicott brought forward, that when we are in
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: an environment where our truer nature is not being reflected
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: to us, that we develop what he called a false self.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: And then if this happens when we're quite young, we
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: can come to believe that the false self is who
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: I really am. And then we move forward through the
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: arc of our life, constantly, as we were suggesting, looking
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: in other people's faces, listening for what they need, following
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: other people's list of requests with the sense that that
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: gives me a feeling of being real, gives me a
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: feeling that this is my purpose in life. But under
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: the surface, people become symptomatic. And this is something that
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: was central to Jung's ideas, that our waking personality must
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: be in a primary relationship to the self, to the
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: deepest center. When the self has been replaced by our parents,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: the school system, siblings who are making demands, or any
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: number of other things, we become unwell.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it relates to, you know, kind
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: of what I was saying before about in the Jungian
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: terms is you have to connect with the self, essentially.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: You know, where is that ego-self axis? Where do you
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: have connection with your deep center? If you're too much
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: wrapped up in Winnicott's false self, that's a different self,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: by the way. All these terms so differently. But then
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: you don't have that orientation to your center, to your depth.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: And you can simply be sort of batted about by
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: the winds, you know, of whoever. You know, there was
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: a really, there was a, there's an old Woody Allen
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: movie called Zellig that's less well known. It was, it
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: must have been, it must be from like the 80s.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: But it's such a charming little film because talk about,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: it starts with Zellig, the main character's at a party
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: and someone asks him if he's ever read Moby Dick.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And he lies. He pretends like he has, even though
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: he hasn't. And from there, he winds up in all
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: of these situations where he just conforms to what anyone
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: wants of him. And I mean, it was like the 80s, right?
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: So this was before like, you know, computer generated animation
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: and stuff. But somehow they did this really great stuff
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: where he's at like a Nazi rally and he's, you know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: he's giving a Nazi salute. He just becomes who he's like,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: he's a chameleon, you know, and I and I think
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: and the film is. I literally haven't seen it since
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: the 1980s, so I should go back and watch it.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: But of course, the film explores the downside of not
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: having our own sense of self and simply conforming to
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: what others around us want us to be. So I
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: guess maybe that chameleon metaphor is perhaps another way of
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: thinking about this.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: What I'm thinking about is how do we connect or
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: build or find if it hasn't been supported and we
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: haven't been encouraged and external world circumstances did not facilitate
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: the development of who are you and what do you
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: like and how do you feel? What are your interests?
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: If that has not been encouraged and supported, you know,
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: it can be a little difficult to say to somebody, well,
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: you know, where's your authentic self and what do you
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: really feel? Where are your values? What do you like?
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: And that that's the process, that that can be the
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: place to begin is, oh, my gosh, I don't know.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: I don't know what I like. And I've had people
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: in the consulting room who say, you know, it doesn't
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: matter to me. You know, when somebody says, you know,
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: should we do A or B? Well, I don't care.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: It's either one is fine with me. Yeah, I know,
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: but I really want to know, would you rather go,
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: you know, for a walk or would you rather go kayaking?
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: You know, whatever you want.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: That's so annoying when people do that, isn't it? Yes,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: It is. And what I've come to appreciate for some
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: people is they really, truly, honestly don't know and don't
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: care about And it is almost unfair to say, you know,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: come on, sit down and tell me which one you prefer,
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: because it has been inculcated in them to be agreeable.
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: And I'm putting little air quotes around it because that's
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: not true agreeability. But if you've learned to define yourself
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: in the context of a demanding position, controlling other or environment,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: then I think it takes a little patience on the
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: part of other people, even to build the awareness of,
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: seriously though, I really do want to know if you'd
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: rather go for a walk or get the kayak out.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: You know, sit, think, ponder, because that's the very thing
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: that has not been encouraged, supported, nurtured And then the
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: poor person gets that backlash of, you know, why are
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: you such a nebbish? I asked you a simple question.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: Would you rather do A or B? And you're waffling around.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, there is a difference between not knowing and
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: not caring, right? It's funny. I was with a friend
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: over the weekend. We decided to go see a movie
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: and we had a couple to pick from. And I
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: really couldn't. I didn't have a strong preference. So we said,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: let's flip a coin. So we did. But, you know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: so there is not caring and then there's not knowing, Deb.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the heartbreaking situation that you're lifting
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: up is that sometimes we haven't, we don't know what
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: it's like to be in touch with our own desires.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: And so we do just kind of go along with
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: what other people want. And there can be a cost
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: to having our own desires because, as I said before,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: you might make someone unhappy. You might inconvenience someone. You
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: might piss somebody off.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: And you never learned how. that the automatic go-to is
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: what you, whoever that you happens to be, want or prefer.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: So I think there's just a whole range here that
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: we're putting under the heading of people-pleasing from something that's
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: fairly subtle and may veer into the agreeability category versus
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: the thing that really stems from not having been supported
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: to develop enough sense of value, self-authenticity, and an internal
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: reference point. So the only thing that person has to
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: ping off of is what the other person or the
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: circumstances are demanding.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: So we're leaning a little bit into some of the solutions.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: Depending on one's typology, one is either going to discern
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: what is highly valuable based on feeling or thinking. And
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: when we are trying to reestablish what our experience is,
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: what is my task in a given moment, we can
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: ask ourselves, what do I like, and put that in
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: some sense of a scale. So for instance, Asking somebody
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: what they want or what they desire can be very
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: complicated because it sounds so big. But if I ask somebody,
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: do you like this or not like it? Take everything
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: else off the table. Do you like it or not
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: like it? If you do like it, zero to 10,
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: how much do you like it? Or if you don't
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: like it, zero to 10, how much don't you like it?
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: You don't have to make a decision up front, but
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: can you step away and at least ponder, do I
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: like it or not like it? Just that little bit.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: If you're a thinking type, it's not always quite so
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: black and white. I think feeling types have a little
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: bit more of a black and white quality to it.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: But asking somebody, what do you think about this possibility?
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: How do you think that it will affect you? How
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: do you think that it will affect the other person?
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: What does that suggest to you? Those are two little
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: ways to try to angle back into yourself and away
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: from staring at the face of the other person to
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: see whether there's a flicker of anger or pleasure or
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: neutrality on them. Sometimes we have to, honestly, if you're
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: in that situation, just say, excuse me, and go to
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: the restroom. Just sit alone for yourself and just, without
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: staring at the face of the other person, Do I
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: like it or not like it? Just me, all alone
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: here in the can, you know, talking to myself. And
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: sometimes we need that.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: I love that, of you can always cut yourself a
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: break and give yourself at least a little time to
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: consider it and just kind of come home to yourself.
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't know. Now we're sort of like frozen.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: It's like, I love that. I'm like, oh, excuse me,
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: just go to the restroom. In just a second.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: A.K.A.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: The room of inner reflection.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: The restroom.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: The restroom.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: But it's such a powerful sentence. I talk about this
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: with my analysands a lot. It's such a powerful sentence
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: to be able to say something like, I'm going to
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: have to think about that. I mean, obviously, do you
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: want to go see this movie or that movie? Maybe
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: go to the restroom. But if someone calls you up
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: and says, hey, can you blah, blah, blah, or do
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: you want to, you know, just I, it took me
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: a while to realize that you can actually just say,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I got to think about that. I'll get back to you.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: There are very few situations where you can't say that, actually.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And oftentimes when I hang up the phone, I know
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: right away, oh, did you just see that motion I made?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Like I was hanging up one of those old-fashioned phones.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: When you hang up the phone... We're that old. I know.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I definitely want to do that. Or no, I don't.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Or maybe I'd like to do that, but only if
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: something like that. So you just need room. I remember
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: when I was.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: I was in a position of authority at an organization,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: and I was probably about 30, and I had not
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: gotten my hands around this stuff at all. And some
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: guys came into the office. They were a little bit
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: older than me, and I wanted them to like me,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and I wanted them to think I was doing a
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: good job. And they asked for permission to do something
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: that was so clearly a hell no. And they put
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: me on the spot. They asked me and I said, yes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: And I shouldn't have. And I still think about that
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: as such an example of this. Like I just was
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: in kind of people pleasing mode. And I said, yes,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: even though I knew in the moment that it was like,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: why were they even asking? And if I had just said,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: I'll get back to you tomorrow, it would have all
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: gone down differently. So that's that's a that's a. Those
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: are good tools, whether it's the bathroom for five minutes
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: or just tell them you'll call them tomorrow. Those are
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: good tools to break out of that compulsive response.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: And that can be very much part of it, is
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: I have to give you an answer right this minute.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: You know, so sometimes I envision it as, and I've
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: said to people, you know, let's think about it on
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: a range. Somebody comes up to you and says, Would
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: you mind going to the bank? I'm really in a pickle.
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: I'll pay you back, but would you mind just take
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: a break during your lunch hour, go to the bank
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: and get me $ 10, 000?
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: Okay, thanks, Joseph.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Now you know.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: You know, most people go like, I don't know, I
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: wouldn't do that. So now we take it down to
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: the other end of the scale of like your situation, Lisa.
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: of whatever those men wanted, that you automatically might say yes. Or,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: you know, can you bring four dozen? Your brownies are
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: so great. Can you bring four dozen to the school fundraiser?
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: Let me think about that. I'll get back to you tomorrow.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: And having been in that position, my moment of liberation,
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: always having been the one that grew all the little
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: bean sprouts in the paper cups, and all that jazz,
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: was when I went out and bought a dozen cookies
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: for the bake sale. Ooh, transgression. Everyone knows.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: Oh, you're that kind of a person.
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: I didn't do homemade.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, dear.
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: Some things are so clearly it's a no, but others,
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: when it's... But I love that idea of just interrupt
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: your instinct to give an automatic reply, automatic yes. I'll
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: get back to you.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: So as long as we're talking about remedies, there is
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: a fairy tale that I talk about in The Vital
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Spark that I think is a really great example of
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: the moment where someone who has perhaps been socialized into
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: being agreeable or perhaps even being a bit of a
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: people pleaser kind of gets her hands around some appropriate aggression.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Because if we've been socialized in this way, we can
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: think about it in Jungian terms that our aggressive capacity
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: has gone into the shadow. It's something that we haven't developed.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: We haven't let ourselves know about it. It's kind of
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: over there. If we see other people being aggressive, we
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: might think, ah, you know, that person's totally out of control.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: We haven't claimed that capacity in ourselves. And of course,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I'm using the word capacity because it's a really important word.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Because this is not about, oh, yeah, you have to
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: be able to be aggressive all the time. No. Having
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: an aggressive capacity means it's a skill that you can
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: choose to apply. It's not a way of moving through
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: the world. It's an ability. So I am going to
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: quickly read the Grimm's Fairy Tale, The Frog Prince. Once
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: upon a time, a princess sat at the edge of
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: a well playing with a beautiful golden ball, her favorite plaything.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: She delighted in throwing it up into the air and
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: catching it, but she dropped it, and it fell into
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: the water and sank. The princess was distraught. When she
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: looked into the well, she saw it was so deep
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: that she couldn't see the bottom. She sat down at
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: the edge of the well and began to weep and lament.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: I would give anything in the world to get my
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: ball back, she cried. As she cried, a frog stuck
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: its head out of the water and said, Why are
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: you weeping? Oh, responded the princess, you can't help me,
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: you nasty frog. My ball has fallen into the water.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: The frog offered to fetch the ball for her on
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: the condition that she accept him as her companion and
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: let him sit next to her eat from her plate,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: sleep in her bed, and promise to love and cherish him.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: The princess thought that the frog's demands were nonsense and
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: couldn't imagine that he would ever leave the water. So
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: she quickly promised him what he asked in hopes that
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: he would retrieve her ball. The frog disappeared into the
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: water and returned a moment later with the ball in
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: his mouth. The princess quickly took it from him, delighted
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: to have her plaything back. Then, without pausing, she rushed
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: off back to the castle.
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: Wait!
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Princess called the frog after her. You promised to take
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: me with you. But she ignored him. The next day,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: the princess was sitting at the table when she heard
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: something coming up the marble steps. Squish, squish, squish. Then
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: came a knock at the door and a voice that
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: cried out, Oh, princess, open up, please. She ran to
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: the door and opened it and saw the frog whom
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: she had forgotten. Horrified, she slammed the door shut and
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: returned to the table, acting as if nothing was the matter. However,
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: her father, the king, saw that she was alarmed and
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: asked her what was wrong. There's a horrid frog outside,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: she said. He fetched my golden ball from the water
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: and I promised he could come to live with me,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: but I never thought he meant it. Now he's standing
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: outside and wants to come in. As she said this,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: there was another knock at the door and she could
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: hear the frog calling to her. You must keep your promise,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: said the king. Go and open the door for the frog.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: The princess opened the door and the frog hopped inside
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: and followed her to the table. She sat down and
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: resumed eating. Lift me beside you, the frog called out.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: The princess loathed the thought of this, but her father,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: the king, ordered her to do it. With revulsion, she
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: picked up his slimy little body and placed him on
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: the table. Now, push your plate a little closer, he
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: said to her. so that we might eat together. The
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: princess was forced to comply, and when the frog had
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: eaten until he was full, he commanded her to bring
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: him to her bed as he was tired and wished
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: to sleep. The princess was terrified of sharing her bed
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: with the cold, wet frog. She started to cry at
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: the thought of it, but her father became angry and
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: ordered her to keep her promise. So she picked up
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: the frog with two fingers and carried him to her room.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: She was so enraged at the thought of putting his
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: slimy little body on her pillow that she flung him
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: with all her might against the wall. Leave me alone,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: you disgusting frog, she said. The moment the frog hit
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: the wall, he transformed into a handsome young prince. The
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: princess was shocked and then delighted. The two sat up
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: talking and she cherished him as she had promised. Then,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: in their delight, they fell asleep together. The next morning,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: a fine carriage arrived drawn by eight horses and conveying
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: the prince's servant, Faithful Henry. When Faithful Henry learned that
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: his dear master had been turned into a frog, he'd
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: had three iron bands placed around his heart to keep
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: it from bursting from grief. The princess and the prince
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: got into the coach to travel back to the prince's
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: realm and and as they rode they heard three mighty cracks.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: The prince at first feared that the coach was breaking,
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: but faithful Henry explained that the iron bands around his
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: heart had sprung open because he was so happy that
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: the spell had been broken. So I bet when you
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: heard that it was the frog king, you were all
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: thinking it was the French version where she's going to
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: kiss the frog. No, no, no. It's the German version
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: where she flings him at the wall. But it's such
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: a great I think, sort of illustration of getting out
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: of that kind of, I'm going to conform to the demands,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to follow the rules. No, I'm going to
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: find something authentic and it might not be very agreeable
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: of me, but actually that's the thing that is transformative.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: That's what breaks the spell is when she finds her
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: own authenticity. And Joseph, I was thinking about your point
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: about the dependent narcissist in the beginning of the story,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: because she kind of is like that. She looks like
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: she's so sweet and of course, little frog, but really
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: she has no, it's, you know, it's passive aggressive because
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: she's not planning on keeping her promise. She's, you know,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: she's behaving in this very shallow way, isn't she, in
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: the beginning of the story?
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Right, right. She's willing to agree to something because she
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: doesn't believe she can be held to it.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: So that she can get what she wants. Lo and behold,
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: as a princess, her word actually matters. And the king
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: is teaching her something about keeping her word.
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: I remember reading this. We all have memories of reading
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: fairy tales or having them read to us when we
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: were little and the meaning that we made of them.
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: And I remember being so shocked. and then so totally perplexed.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Why would that be rewarded? And so we have, you know,
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: the king, the force for law and order, like, you know,
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: you gave your word. You have to honor your word.
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: You made an agreement. You have to keep an agreement.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: And then she flings the little frog against the wall,
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: and it's rewarded. And it lit me up that, oh,
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: my gosh, She transgressed. She did something terrible from the
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: viewpoint of ego and rules, convention, and all of that
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: kind of thing. And I never forgot it. I didn't
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: understand it, but I never forgot it. So there's something
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: here about transgressing that serves oneself, that it was true
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: for her and to her. And it broke the spell.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: Sometimes that's what it takes to serve ourselves. And that's
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: an interesting conundrum. And you talked about memories, dreams, reflections,
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: Jung's memoir, and how at the end he says that
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: he hurt people and various other things. And he said,
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: I couldn't do anything. This is just who I am.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: And this is how it was. And I could not
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: do otherwise. And that sometimes, That's the truth, that the
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: cost of being your authentic self is going to be
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: disagreeable according to convention or how other people feel. And
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: so it takes some grit in order to serve ourselves
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: and be authentic. It's not like it always comes easy.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it reminds me of what became a really popular
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: book called The Courage to be Disliked, which is... an
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: exegesis on Adlerian psychology, which is a very different approach,
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: but I think the message is very similar, that if
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: one understands what one's self-chosen task is in a given moment,
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: there is a need to keep faith with what you
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: know to be true about yourself, which inevitably means that
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: that some number of people are going to dislike you
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: or dislike your actions. Conversely, if you are the kind
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: of person that everybody approves of every action all the time,
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: it suggests that you actually haven't taken a position, but
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: you are in that chameleon place that you were referencing earlier, Lisa,
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: that you're just changing all the time to get the
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: calmness or the smile from the other person. But anytime
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: we take a position on anything, let's just say you
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: decide you're a vegetarian and some members in your family
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: are going to like that or not like that. But
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: if that's true to you, you're going to continue to
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: move forward and eat what you want. I know this
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: sounds like a small thing, but it isn't a small thing.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: And many people who are vegetarian think have stories of
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: having to really wrestle with their family just to be
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: validated that I don't want to eat bacon. I keep
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: the bacon away from me, or I don't eat things
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: that have a face. I'm not going to do it.
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: And the frustration that the family or whoever's cooking the
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: meal might feel, but it's common enough. Can we bear
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: that tension and be who we know ourselves to be
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: and to accept going into it that some number of
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: people are just not going to like it or like us.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Can we make peace with that, even though it's not
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: necessarily enjoyable to be disliked? And to grow into that strength,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: which brings us back to a more Jungian perspective of
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: where do we get the strength so that we can courageously, occasionally,
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: be disliked? And the strength to be ourselves comes from
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: that relationship to our inner world. Because that's the thing
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: that nobody else can interfere with. You and your interiority,
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: nobody can actually take that away from you once you
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: discover it.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: One of the things I find interesting about this tale
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: is we have the father who says you have to
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: keep your word. And you sort of read the tale
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: and you're like, yeah, you do. And he is really
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: kind of a good king, you know? and then the
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: fact that the answer is that she has to break
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: the rules. And I think it's true that both are
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: sort of true, right? You have to live in the
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: world where your word matters, where you need to follow
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: through on things, and there are times when you have
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: to break the rules. And I think the question is
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: holding both of those things, that they're true at the
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: same time, and then going to your point, Joseph, of, well,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: The discernment of knowing when is it right to break
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: the rules, she didn't have a discernment process. It just
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: welled up. And I think that also speaks to your question, Joseph,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: about where do you get the strength? Because sometimes you
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: just can't not.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: And if we put on this lens of the feminine
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: psyche and the animus, the frog being the animus, is
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: that this young girl is introduced to her animus in
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: this interesting way. And that as she continues to interact
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: with the animus, because she would like to flee from
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: that and then remain young and little. But the king
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: seems to know something else, which is like, no, you
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: are going to relate to the animus. Whether or not
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: you like it, whether or not you think it's pretty,
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: you're going to relate to the animus. And as she
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: relates to the animus, she gets in touch with her fire.
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: That we can almost say that the frog puts her
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: in touch with her strength and her own opinions and
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: what she likes and doesn't like. And when she finally
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: says with great strength, I don't like this, so to speak,
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden the animus becomes anthropomorphic and supportive.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: And she likes him and he likes her. and they
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: go to the quote-unquote bed together, but they come into
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: a kind of union. And the principle of the king,
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: for me, is saying, now that you've discovered this psychological principle,
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: you are not going to turn away from it. You
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: are going to figure this out one way or another,
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: whether you like it or not, and something good does
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: come out of it.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like that. She wants to flee from
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Neonymous when she first meets him, you disgusting frog. But
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: of course, that's the part of her that has access
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: to the golden ball, symbol of the self, and to
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: the depths of the well. It's really such a beautiful story.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: And the transition from the world of the child to
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: the world of the young woman is to take a partner,
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: the young prince.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: And a lot of times when we're kids, we are
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: in that people-pleasing mode, you know, when we're young. Part
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: of becoming an adult is being able to have your
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: own opinions that aren't necessarily going to be pleasing to
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: others around you. So it really is about that sort
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: of transition to a more adult kind of space.
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: I really like what you've said, that she's introduced to
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: her inner other, the frog. And then the next step
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: is the king. part of her own psyche, says, rules
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: and regs, you made a deal, deal's a deal, and
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: then what happens is her own instinctual self rears up.
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: She doesn't have a conscious, thoughtful, think-it-out process. Something just emerges.
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: But one way or another, she is interacting with this
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: part of herself, the animus, her inner other, which takes
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: me to this idea of people-placing. It really can be automatic.
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: It can be transgressive. It can be ugly. It can
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: be thoughtless. You did what? You said that to Mrs. So-and-so?
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: But something is growing and something is happening that has
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: to do with with her own sense of agency, that no, me,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: not you, me over you, that first she has no
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: intention of honoring the deal she made with the frog.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: But I like this whole dynamic a lot of what
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: a struggle it is and that it's not as simple
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: as saying always. It's not always as simple as saying,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: let me think about it and get back to you
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: in a day or so. but it gives us something
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: to notice and to reflect on. I did that. Oh
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: my God, I can't believe I said that. But what
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: have I learned from that? What happened? Look what part
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: of myself reared up out of nowhere to meet me
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: and to be curious about that and affirm it in
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: the sense of like, well, I did that versus only
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: too quickly to censor ourselves. For not adhering to convention.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: Just look. Take a look. Reflect on it. Here's what
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: I did. What happened?
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: So here's a couple of ideas people might take away
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: that we can be agreeable or pleasing as long as
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: it's freely chosen, as long as it's context sensitive, and
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: we remember that it is reversible.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: That it's not an eternal contract, it's a moment in time.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: You've considered something, it's appealing to you, and so there
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: we are. If it's aligned with your explicit, clear values,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: then it's good to go. And if this agreeable or
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: pleasing behavior is paired with enough truth-telling and your own
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: clear sense of boundaries, saying yes and up to what point,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: It can be a very pleasurable experience for you and
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: the people with you. It becomes pathological where we feel
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: it's an automatic agreement because there is a low-level threat
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: somewhere in the environment that we're saying yes, and we're
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: maintaining that even though it's harmful, harmful to us or
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: to someone else, and we're negating the fact that there's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: harm there. If we're saying yes in order to regulate
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: the other person's mood, that's a tricky one. That really
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: is in the space a lot. I'll just say yes
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: to avoid the conflict. I'll say yes because I know
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: how they get when I don't. That's a tough moment.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: If we're saying yes just to reinforce this identity that
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: I'm liked and I'm good, that's tricky. And then as
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: you were saying, Deb, earlier, sometimes being agreeable is part
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: of an entire trauma process, that there can be a
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: PTSD dynamic to it, as well as other things like
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: being depressed or having other kinds of dependency traits that
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: are very, very young and require a deeper consideration. So
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: being pleasing to another person is not inherently negative. It
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: could be a wonderful, beautiful experience as long as our
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: core is aligned with it and it is a co-pleasure.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: I am pleased to engage this way. They are pleased
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: that I'm engaging this way. And we're both just having fun,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: enjoying ourselves. It's balanced.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: Which takes me back to something at the beginning that
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: I said, and I'll just reiterate it. Your feelings will
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: tell you a lot of like, oh God, just say yes.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: It's just much easier than to upset so-and-so. But you
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: see what your feeling is. Just even saying that is
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: like this feeling of like, oh, okay. Versus a feeling
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: of this is a delight and I'm happy to do it.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: Or do I feel coerced? Do I feel, was I
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: on automatic pilot? Did I say yes too quickly? Notice
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: how you feel.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: Just notice.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: And I'd love everyone to notice how you feel when
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: I suggest Dream School. Because we're hoping that it will
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: be as pleasurable for you as it has been for us.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: But Joseph, seriously, you were talking before about just finding
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: your core and connecting with that core. And dreams are
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: a great way to do that. So we hope that
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: you'll check out Dream School. We've just refurbished everything. It's
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: brand sparkly new. So come on over to our website
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: and take a look at Dream School. And you can
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: learn to work with dreams the way we do and
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: the way we're about to right now as we transition
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: to a dream.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: Today's dreamer is a 32-year-old female who works as a
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: child psychoanalytic psychotherapist in training, and her title for the
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: dream is My Father Coming Home at Night. And here's
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: the dream. It's night, and I'm alone in the entrance
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: hall of my childhood home. Through the glass panels on
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: the front door, the light from two car headlights comes
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: pouring in refracted through the glass. The light then bends
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: away as the car parks in the driveway. My father
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: comes in through the door. He's drunk, but enjoyably so,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: jolly and pleased to see me wanting to chat. We
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: sit at a table and he tells me stories about
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: some of the people he met that night. We sit
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: close and are smiling and affectionate with each other. He
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: then suddenly asks me, but who's going to look after me?
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: I say, I will, Dad, I will, as I stroke
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: his back to console and reassure him. For context, she adds,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: I've just started the third year of my clinical training,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: as intense as in the UK we work full-time seeing
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: patients in public health services while training. I've been struggling
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: with my morale and sense of resilience this week. which
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: just ended as I had this dream on Friday night.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know if this is significant and could be admitted,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: but my partner of three years has been dropping hints
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: that he might propose to me soon, which I'm happy about.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: At the same time, my mom and her partner, now
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: of 13 years, are going through something of a crisis,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: re-questioning their relationship in the past weeks, which has caused
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: me to worry for her. As for feelings in the dream...
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: She says, I was very happy to see my dad.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: He was a drunk, but amusing, warm, and I enjoyed
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: feeling him physically, the warmth of his breath and his skin,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: the bristles of hair in his face. At the same time,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: there was an undercurrent of worry about his drunken state,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: and that worry became the dominant feeling at the end
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: when he asked who would take care of him. For associations,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: she writes, My dad died when I was 13 of
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: advanced cancer, which was only diagnosed a week before he died.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: I don't dream about him often, but when I do
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: it feels significant, and each time he feels so tactile
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: and real, alive in that way. In the dream, my
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: dad is around the same age as when he died, 62,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: whereas I'm the age I am now, 32. We moved
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: away from this childhood home not long after he died.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: There's been a question in the family since his death
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: about whether he possibly drank too much, whether that might
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: have affected his health. My dad was an adult psychoanalyst,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: and so my own career now is calling me back
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: home in a way. I'm unsure about the meaning of
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: the light and the glass. This is such an important
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: example of where context provides a whole other layer of meaning.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: If we just had the dream, who knows what we
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: might make of it. But knowing that the father died
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: terribly and very quickly and in a shocking way, and
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: what the dream might be offering in terms of medicine,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: I think gives me just a sense that the comfort
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: of this visitation by the father seems relevant to perhaps
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: some of the uncertainties that she's dancing with at the moment.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm thinking about having your dad die suddenly
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: when you're 13 years old. So all of a sudden,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: he gets this diagnosis, and then he's dead in a week.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: No preparation for the family.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: And 13 is, you're at such a crossroads, right? You're just,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: you're entering, you're leaving behind the world of childhood. And
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: then I'm struck by the fact that she's at another crossroads.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: You know, she's 32. She's kind of going through this
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: professional transformation. And it looks like she's on the threshold
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: of another very, very major life transition, possibly getting married.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: And so it seems touching and fitting somehow that her
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: dad would come back at this time. It could be
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: that being on the precipice of such a major transition
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: calls back this earlier time, you know, in a way
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: that kind of highlights uncertainty.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about the father image here and that it
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: is sort of presaged here. that it's at night and
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: she's in her childhood home, childhood complex, and that the light,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: which is often a symbol of consciousness, is somehow refracted
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: through glass panes on the door, headlights, et cetera, of
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: an image of a real ambivalence here about the father,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: that he's drunk. But hey, that's okay because it's enjoyable.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: He's jolly. He's a happy drunk, wants to chat. We
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 4: sit close, smiling and affectionate. But in this state of
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: inebriation on the part of her father complex, which then
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: veers into something else, who's going to look after me?
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: And the dream ego says, oh, I will, to console.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 4: So there's something here that looks like it's companionable. affectionate,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: and then also sort of duty-bound. Our dream ego says,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 4: don't worry, Dad, I'll look after you. I'll take care
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 4: of you. And I'm putting that in the context of
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 4: what she says now. Her training is finished. And then
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 4: she says, my partner of three years has been dropping
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: hints that he might propose to me soon. So I'm
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 4: thinking about this, and I'm thinking about it in the context, too,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: of our fairy tale, about the frog prince and what
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: does it mean to make an alliance with the masculine
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: other in the waking world in the form of her fiancé,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: the masculine other in the form of her deceased father,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 4: and her own interiority around her own animus and these
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: images that these other males in her life can hold
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: for her about that.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: Picking up on that, Deb, I mean, obviously we would
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: wonder about sort of the nature of the father complex,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: and we might imagine that it could be very, very complicated.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: And I agree with you, there's something ambivalent. I mean,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: it's so sweet that he visits her, and he feels
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: so real, and it's such a comfort. And yet, there's
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: this undertone of worry. I'm also aware that what we
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: know from the dreams is that the father has driven
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: while intoxicated. So there is this sense of a little
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: bit of danger, a little bit of unnecessary risk. And again,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: to go back to my point earlier, she's training to
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: be a psychoanalyst. Her father was a psychoanalyst. She's presumably
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: about to get married. When you get married, often the
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: next thing you start thinking about is, are we going
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: to have a family? So she is moving into this
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: next stage of her life in which the father complex
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: might be expected to play a significant role. The father
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: complex has something to say about what happens when we
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: get out into the world. And of course, the father
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: complex is implicit when we start creating a family of
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: our own. So somehow, you know, what I can say
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: is that Well, I can only imagine that in a
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: sense she was quite abandoned by her father, not through
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: any fault of his. By fate. But by fate, yes,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: she was abandoned. And perhaps there's just a slight fear
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: now that arises of, you know, is the inner father
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: sort of sturdy enough to help her through these next challenges?
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: It's a complex image.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: It makes me ponder whether or not she feels that
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: marrying will be a betrayal to her father. Because there's
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: so much trauma in the loss of the father at 13,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: it can interfere with the progression of the father complex.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: And if there is that kind of frozen in time moment,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: she may feel as she's pondering the proposal from her
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: husband that there's kind of an unresolved allegiance in the
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: background and that the dream may be lifting up this
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: snapshot of perhaps excessive obedience or alignment with the father
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: complex that just needs to be examined, needs to be considered,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: and opening the possibility that It may not be a
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: betrayal for you to choose a spouse. The father, it
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: is possible the father might bless the union upon further consideration.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: I like that, Joseph. And I want to just add
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: to that, that one of the part of the traditional
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: wedding ceremony is the father gives the daughter away. So
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: it's sort of psychologically, symbolically, one of the crossing over
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: into adulthood things that happen is the father kind of
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: gives the blessing. And so if we don't have a father,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: if the father, and I do wonder about the nature
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: of the father. She says the actual father, you know,
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: that maybe he drank too much. So does she still feel, well,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: because of the nature of the father complex, the way
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: her father is living in her, does she feel free?
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: to move forward into life? Or does that feel like
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: a betrayal, perhaps of his memory, but both perhaps because
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: of that relationship and how it's lived in her and
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: because of the traumatic way in which he died, she
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: may not, as you're saying, feel like she has permission
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: in some sense to move forward and she has to
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: stay back and take care of him.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, you know, maybe we're all circling around
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: some of the same thing, but I am really paying
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: attention in this dream to the fact that in the dream,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 4: the father is drunk. So what kind of a relationship
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 4: is that when you're talking and visiting with somebody who's
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 4: drunk and he's a happy drunk and it's cheerful and
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 4: it's fun and it's all that good stuff? And then
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 4: she talks about In the dream, she was happy to
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 4: see him, the warmth and all that, but there was
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 4: an undercurrent of worry, and it became the dominant feeling
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: in the end. When he asked me who would take
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 4: care of him, and in the dream she says, I will,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: and I would want to know about, as you think
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: about getting married to the man who's hinting he's going
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 4: to propose, is that the paradigm for you around relationships somehow,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 4: that when you're close, the other person is drunk or
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: somehow in an altered state, but you have these moments
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 4: of closeness and fun and warmth and physicality, but there's
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 4: an undercurrent of worry about, you know, are these the conditions?
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: Are these the terms and conditions, as they say? And
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 4: what's going on And it relates to our topic of,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 4: do you have to accede to this? Is this the
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 4: price of relationship? This is just the way it is.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 4: And you accede to this, that he's warm and funny
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 4: and affectionate and drunk. And underneath, there's unacknowledged worry. And
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: this is the first man in most of our lives
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: is our dad. And there's worry in the family that
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 4: his drinking might have somehow contributed to his health condition
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 4: and premature demise.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: And the anger that you might feel.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 4: And all that is missing in the context of this.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 4: So I think I would want to really talk about that.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 4: And it's a very hard thing to have a parent
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 4: die before time and before you're grown. I can well
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 4: imagine that there are elements of this coming up now
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 4: as unresolved loss. in the face of another commitment. You know,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 4: I don't know, but that's, you know, it would certainly
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 4: be understandable and even expected.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, Deb, I think what you brought up right there
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: seems so relevant that she has a father that you know,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: fatefully disappeared at 13. The relationship between her mother and
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: her domestic partner is shaky. And she's considering going all
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: in in this relationship. And I would imagine around the
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: edges are these fears about loss and instability of the relationship.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: What if my husband dies? Or what if it doesn't
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: work out and it becomes unstable? What if I'm all
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 3: alone again? And do I want to put all of
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: myself into something with an uncertain outcome. There's a lot
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: of subtle things moving around that bears a gentle conversation.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:19:53
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• 1:19:57
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• 1:20:00
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