Latest / The Remnant Radio's Podcast / How to Practice Tongues & Interpretation in Church, Biblically

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How to Practice Tongues & Interpretation in Church, Biblically · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnit Radio.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: In this program, we're picking up on our conversation about tongues, but how does it happen in the corporate assembly?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be an interesting program.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: You guys stay tuned.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, thank you so much for joining us here at Remnit Radio.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're talking about tongues.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've listed out a whole bunch of questions that we're gonna kind of volley back and forth and engage with.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: These are just the popular questions that people want to know when it comes to tongues operating in the corporate assembly.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's clear that in the scriptures, tongues is something that happens in the assembly of Corinth.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and yet there are instructions on how not to operate with tongues.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: We've done quite a bit of discussion around that in a prior video.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but now we're kind of looking to the the question at hand.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and how is it practiced rightly?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and for that discussion, I've got Michael Roundtree joining me from eight Oklahoma.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, eight Oklahoma?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're in Oklahoma City.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in 8, Oklahoma.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're both in Oklahoma.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: The great state.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: The great state of Oklahoma.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Michael, uh, you want to give our audience a little bit of heads up of what we're tackling today?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, we we have 17 questions about tongues.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not sure we're gonna get to all of them.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh now we've talked about the gift of tongues every which way on this episode.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we say we we're here to talk about theology, church history, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we can consistently talked about the gifts of tongues, but we want to do a whole episode diving into its corporate expression.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what makes this a challenge is uh there's really more it seemingly, maybe arguably, I don't know if you'd agree with this statement, Josh.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree with this?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: That there's more detail about how prophecy is supposed to be practiced than tongues.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, maybe I don't agree with that.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Verse by verse analysis.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say probably more on tongues than prophecy, with the amount that Paul dedicates to the way this gift is being prop practiced in an inappropriate way.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would say probably tongues wins by by that margin, but I also think that one tongues is less common of a gift than that of prophecy.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's definitely less um aspired to, I think, because Paul says pursue spiritual especially.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then I would say that uh so so there's those two pieces, but I think a lot of what Paul writes about tongues is not it's proactive use, but what not to do.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh in that sense, I think we might have more examples of prophecy, certainly in the Old Testament.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so man, I think when you start considering Old Testament, it it feels to me like what's said about tongues is basically don't do it these bad ways.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what's said about prophecy, it's more like here's how to do it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe anyway, maybe kind of subjectively talking here, kind of how it seems, but we're gonna walk through First Corinthians 14 a little bit, and we're just going to answer some questions.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll just read a few of them, not all 17.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Does every utterance in tongues during a service require an interpreter, or only some?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's question one.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh question two uh who has the authority to call for interpretation once someone speaks in tongues?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Number three is can one person give both the tongue and the interpretation?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Paul assumed two different groups.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Four is the two, three, and each in turn limit in 1427, but that's first Corinthians, like a cap per person or for the whole service.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So can you technically get like nine prophecies or tongue speakers?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um what should happen if someone starts speaking in tongues and no interpreter comes forward?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we start to get really practical.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: One of the big things we see in charismatic churches sometimes, and I'll add the word unfortunately, is uh is singing in the spirit with a whole bunch of people in the room that some of whom could be unbelievers or people are unknowledgeable about these things.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: So uh anyway, but the list goes on.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Josh, are there any that you think maybe we should highlight among the 17 that I missed?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, I I think it's good.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I wait this is this entire episode is going to be about practical use, about like how does it function in the church?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to encourage you.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a bunch of show notes that we're happy to tackle.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have a question specifically about how tongues is going to operate in your local assembly, um, we would be happy to engage with that in the live comment section.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So feel free to drop it in there.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think I got one already that's really good.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: We address it in our notes, uh, and you guys can pick these up on Patreon.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys support over on Patreon, it's like five bucks a month, you get access to all of our notes and explanations for each of these 17 questions and maybe stuff we don't answer in this video.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um but here's a great question that came in just a moment ago.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my question is that we have, yeah, I'm gonna paraphrase here because I read it a second ago, uh, ways to validate spiritual gifts, such as prophecy and healing, uh, you know, deliverance.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can see it happening, you can verify that it's happening, but how do we verify a language if no one knows that language?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: That is an authentic expression of that gift.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I would make the argumentation um to our gentleman with a very bodybuilding-esque sort of profile photo, uh, that uh I think it comes down to at least three criteria that I could detect.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: One is is the interpretation of the tongue consistent with scripture?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a pretty serious layup.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's an easy one.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, two, is there a consistent interpretation of that tongue?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh which means are there more than one person giving uh same like attestation?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Someone gave a tongue, two people got the same interpretive key.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this happened in my service.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the only people in services that I've ever run that have been able to do interpretation of tongues have been children.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So in my local assembly, the the two individuals that have the most accurate, consistent interpretation gift uh are both below the age of 14.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So uh young girl in our church, I don't want to give anyone's name, and then my son, uh, a tongue will be given from the stage.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: They will essentially write down or communicate to someone sitting next to them what they believe the interpretation is, and their interpretations line up.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're saying, how do we know and verify that this gift is an authentic gift?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, well, I multiple interpretations that line up would be a great confirmation.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say the third confirmation is when that interpretation applies directly to someone's situation.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Miller tells a story of him and three buddies surrounding a friend.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: His friend is kind of downcast, uh, you know, he's, you know, really needs prayer.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're praying for him, but he starts speaking in tongues, and one of them says, Hey, I'm I'm getting the interpretation.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're praying for a girl, you know, I think he said, I don't think he said it in the woods.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm getting two stories mixed up.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: A gor a girl that had run away, you're praying for her care and safety.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Come to find out the reason that the man is distraught and down, downcast and brokenhearted was because he was distraught over his sister.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I might be getting some of the facts wrong of the story.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Miller's not here to tell it himself, but I would say, hey, those would be three really great ways to test if a gift of tongues and interpretation is authentic.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Biblical, multiple interpretations that line up with the same kind of cue and uh direct application, the same way that we would kind of test prophecy, uh, if that's accurate.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like maybe the heart of the question goes further than uh than what you answered.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think you maybe answered half of it, but uh he also talks about non-human tongues, and uh and his point is he says, but uh you can't really validate the existence of non-human tongues.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: So one of them is how do you guard against fraud, like basically people faking it with a non-human tongue.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we admit that it is debatable whether tongues can can include some kind of heavenly language.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's clear uh in Acts chapter two that the languages, at least we think it's clear that in Acts chapter two, these are human languages languages, because uh humans from various regions and dialects are hearing the word of God in their own tongues.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we think that's clear.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Those ones were human language, languages, but uh, and it is true that you you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there aren't, say, tongues of angels or human angels or human tongues.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Paul does reference tongues of angels in 1 Corinthians 13, I believe it's verse 2.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and that could be that he's talking about that as though it's a real uh a real thing, and could be a potential tongue that uh human could speak in.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And corroborating that potentially would be 1 Corinthians 14, I believe it's 2, where Paul says uh that he who speaks in a tongue speaks between himself and God.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: That seems like some kind of heavenly language, some would say.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh on the other hand, I don't think it can be proved from beyond a shadow of a doubt.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is it can't be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt either way.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh both sides in this debate make inferences.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what I would say is that 1 Corinthians 14, when it talks about interpretation of a tongue, it doesn't have a category for determining whether uh this is a fake human language or a fake heavenly language or a real human language, because at the end of the day, as you're listening to it with your ears in a 1 Corinthians 14 context, it just sounds foreign.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is a like Paul's word, mystery to you.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So at the end of the day, you're gonna walk through the steps that Josh outlined or something like that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so I I don't think I don't see anywhere in Paul's protocol, hey, first figure out if the person's faking it.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as you walk through what Josh is talking about, maybe it comes out that the person's faking it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think I would say that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Josh, what do you think of just that's that's totally fair.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that Miller and I both take the tongues of men and of angels as hyperbole.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we we probably steer away.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that's impossible, but I think I might lean on the side of, ah, that doesn't seem compelling to me.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm inclined to think that these are languages.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm afraid of using the the word known human language because that suggests it must be known by people in our day, people in that region.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there are languages today that um are still um being translated.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are languages that I think have been dead to history for quite a while.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I have no problem with God using one of those many languages to pray or worship as we articulated in our last episode.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, regardless, it would sound to anyone uh as gibberish if there was no interpretive key there.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I would make the argument though, subsequent to that, that there needs to be a gift of interpretation, uh, which again isn't some kind of like, okay, I know how that language operates, because you pray for that and it's a spiritual gift.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily uh a learned skill there.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's God communicating through that mystery.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would affirm everything that Michael said, uh, with just the caveat that I kind of lean towards, ah, that's herbole.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't find that convincing personally.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you think I I didn't know that, Josh.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe maybe uh so how have I missed this in our years of friendship and our countless episodes on Remnant Radio?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't believe heavenly languages is a thing?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm inclined to say uh the one who speaks in Swahili and there's no Swahili speaker present speaks mysteries to God.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's great.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have zero problem with that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it would just sound like gibberish.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: It could, it could I I'm not I'm in I'm in camp heavenly language, which is fine.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know that about you, and I know that about Sam, that Sam is open to our idea as well.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I failed you as a friend that I don't know you.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, I shouldn't you know better than this.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: You and I would both go, um, the text is not explicit, but if we had a a favorable reading, we would lean this way or that way.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying uh I my fa if I'm gonna go with a favorable reading, I'm gonna go, hey, that's hyperbole.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not compelled by it.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I also think that it's uh I think it is totally possible.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is hyperbole, just like when he says if I have faith it can move mountains, uh, but at the same time, I don't think that hyperbole discounts that that could be what he's talking about.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But either way, we both admit it's it's not a slam dunk for either interpretation.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree, I agree.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's uh maybe jump through our very first question.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, does every utterance in tongues uh during a service require an interpreter or only some?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this question, uh, at least in part, can be framed uh in in the context of Pentecostals who say there are two different kinds of tongues.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's a tongue that uh someone can pray in, and then there's a public declaration of tongues.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: We've argued in episodes past that there's just one gift of tongues, and the way it operates um is I can pray to God with that tongue, I can speak to men with that tongue, just one tongue.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's the long and short of that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But Michael, do you want to uh ma'am tackle some of that question for me?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the key is if it's spoken to the gathered church, 100% of the time it needs an interpretation.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I've I'll jump ahead on one of the questions we asked earlier, and uh and I mentioned earlier uh too, but uh the question of can you have a worship leader standing at the fruit at the front saying, hey, let's all sing in the spirit, and then everybody's shoebosh, robo, lobo at the same time, and everybody's like, Oh, this is so beautiful, and I encounter God during this and whatever, and uh, like three unbelievers or two like cessationists or unschooled people uh walk out of the room, they're like, This is all crazy town.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that's exactly what Paul's warning about.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you call it, I like I I've never heard a justification for this that that makes any sense to me.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe it's the idea that, hey, since we're all speaking in tongues at once, nobody knows what we're saying anyway.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like you're in a school cafeteria and you just hear that hum of sound, so there's no need for an interpreter.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't buy it.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says corporate tongue speech must have an interpreter.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's wrong.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and yet at the same time, so gathered assembly, public tongue, 100% you need an interpreter.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: However, Paul does have a category for uh let me just uh just read it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: He says, if any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn and let someone interpret.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: But then he says, But if there's no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: The keywords in church.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's in church and there's no one to interpret, uh he says, he says keep silent, but by silent, he doesn't mean no tongue speech at all.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: He says, let you let you that person speak between himself and God.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a little different.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit like in 1 Corinthians 11, uh, where uh well actually in uh uh I guess Josh help me out on this.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think in 1 Corinthians 11 he's he does use the language of be silent, but it's a it's speaking with reference.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Help me out.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Where am I going?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, here here's here here's where I will I'll pick up.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but Paul does tell women in the church to remain silent.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then later on in uh 1 Corinthians, he's going to tell them how to pray and prophesy with their head covered.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I got you.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I can I can same brain, buddy.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: We can pick up I can pick up where you left off.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Easy.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there, silent doesn't mean complete uh silence of all speech.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think the same could be true of a person, you know, who is praying to themselves.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's totally appropriate to pray.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like in the middle of church, hey, Michael's preaching, I could kind of under my breath be like, Lord, use Michael's preaching, save some souls while while he's up there, save Michael while he's preaching.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: He needs Jesus.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I can pray that under my breath without being a distraction to the assembly, um, not causing any form of disorder.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say the same is probably true of us in the midst of worship.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I probably have prayed in tongues in every worship service I've been in, or the majority of worship services I've been in most of my life.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but tongues has a volume knob on it.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, in the same way that I could say, hey, be silent in church, um, but but pray to God.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: I can I could do the same thing in tongues.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: They just turn it down to where no one can hear.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one, it's not a distraction, two, uh, the unbeliever is not, you know, why are you a babbling idiot?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all the above.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this comment by Storm Sheldon explains it quite well with an example.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: It says, I invited this Mormon to a Pentecostal service, no shade on Pentecostals, we love you, where I used to go to church.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: The corporate tongues was too much for her.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Poor thing.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: She almost ran out of the building.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I never heard from her again.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we don't do that.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that probably that person who was leading it probably thought this was such an anointed moment and they missed their chance to lead a Mormon to Jesus.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, another question, Josh, that I think might be worth answering.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Someone brought up about Torben Sunder uh Sundergaard.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can look for it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Where is it?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Look for Torben.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: There it is.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Torben Sunder uh Sundergaard uses tongues during ministry videos.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is that okay?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would say no.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I like Torben.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the dude is an evangelist and he's uh he's been imprisoned for his faith, and it doesn't mean I agree with all of his theology and everything he does.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't agree with this.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't do it.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Torben would probably argue it's not a church service.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's you know, Paul's talking about in a church gathering, but I don't think it's helpful if an unbeliever comes across your video and sees you shoebosh robo loboing and is like, yeah, I'm done.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm not going to a Christian church, those people are crazy.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I don't think that's good.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think Paul's warning while not directly speaking to that situation, it would be impossible to speak to such a situation since YouTube didn't exist yet.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we can get there by way of application that I think that's the kind of thing Paul would have not approved of.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but since it's in the realm of application, not interpretation, I I wouldn't condemn him, condemn him as sinning when he does it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would just say that applicationally, that's where I would take it.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I wouldn't do it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, hey, is there an interpretation?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen a Torbin Center God video.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I that's not true.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I probably have seen a lot of them 10 years ago.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't watched any of them recently.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh again, I agree with Michael.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I disagree with Torben on a couple doctrinal issues that I think are actually kind of significant regarding baptism, and uh and this would be another one with tongue speech.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh on the tongue speech subject, uh if he was on a video and giving a tongue and there was an interpretation that accompanied it, I'd probably feel less salty about it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I would just say, full stop, it's wrong if you're speaking in tongues in a context where an unbeliever can jump on and think these guys are out of their mind.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and if that is a possible application, it should be avoided because that's what Paul is trying to avoid.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't think Paul is what Michael has so affectionately referred to as a tongues Nazi.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think he is more uh in interest in order, glorifying Christ, building up the church, uh, seeing the lost get saved.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And when tongues is practiced in an inappropriate way and inappropriate manner, God is not glorified.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: The church is not built up and unbelievers run because they think that you're crazy and out of your mind.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I would argue that any application that um causes God not to be glorified, the church not to be built up, and unbelievers to run should be avoided at all costs.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um that that should be the focus of everything that we do.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so that that's what love of neighbor looks like in 1 Corinthians 13.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so Michael, let me ask you this who has the authority to uh call for an interpretation, you know?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the way that tongues speech has been practiced in a lot of Pentecostal churches.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I would make the argument that the vast majority of people who believe in spiritual gifts and even practice spiritual gifts have probably seen most of their tongues and interpretation of tongues in Pentecostal settings.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and typically in those settings, someone will just kind of stand up.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Usually it's when there's a lull, like it's in between songs, or maybe the preacher says something, he's trying to find something in his notes, and there's a lull, and they just crank up like a you know, beat eater and start bocking a bo show, and then they get going.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just an interesting experience as a preacher.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh no, I lost my place, I lost my place, it's gonna happen.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Shoobosh robo lobo.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: There, well, there's no interpretation for that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I got that I got that fake tongue from Jack Deere because it was his fake tongue every time he was talking about it in a in a sermon.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was always shoebosh robo lobo, but but Josh Yours is boca to boca de bapo, boca de bepo.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I say bak it a bacada bo show.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't I picked it up from someone, I'm sure.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a real tongue.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not speaking in tongues.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm using yeah, it's like saying coke backwards e-k O C or uh tie the bow tie, untie the bow tie.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's lots of should a but a Honda, but a but a Nissan.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it goes on forever.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, uh, but but here's the thing if someone gives a tongue, um, who calls for the interpretation or uh how does that function?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh I think that would be the primary question.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's an interesting question because I would say the majority of people watching this video are are not thinking about this from a house church context, they're probably thinking about this from the context of a church of 80 or 150 or 300 or 3,000.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh so it's an interesting question to contemplate.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Corinth had a a few house church congregations, but also when he uses language in 1 Corinthians 14 to talk about the gathering, he'll say, When you all come together, and if you read commentators on that, they suggest that.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: This was a gathering of the house churches into a larger house, like a courtyard of a rich dude kind of deal.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so I've read, I think Gordon Fee, if I remember right, says something like 80 people were at a gathering like that.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, it's just kind of interesting to think about there are different settings that would maybe create different sorts of scenarios.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: For instance, if you have a house church of 12 people, and you sit and maybe the person presiding over the meeting says, Hey, 1 Corinthians 14, 26, I'm gonna read it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it says each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just let the Spirit lead.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Does anybody have anything?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, maybe somebody says, I I believe the Lord has given me a tongue to speak in.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have an interpretation?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: says the one presiding over that meeting.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, I don't have an interpretation.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Does anyone and so I could see it going like that, but ultimately I've never church meetings pretty much have to have someone presiding over them.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: In Paul's example in 1 Corinthians 14, while he doesn't mention elders in that context, uh it's just hard to imagine a meeting where it's literally a total free-for-all.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: 1 Timothy 5 means the elders are to direct the affairs of the church.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm in a quote, home group meeting or in a house church meeting, it if nobody's leading it, it's just chaos.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: It has no order.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it has to just be one person leading it, it could be a few per a few people leading it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it it seems like the person presiding over it is the one that should be interacted with over how you proceed.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let's think in a uh sort of modern bigger church scenario where you have stages and microphones.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think what I would say is there is a uh uh like first of all, somebody speaks in a tongue, I don't think just anyone else shouts an interpretation.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: For that matter, I don't like the scenario Josh just painted.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know some churches do it this way, but where somebody just shouts a tongue in a corporate assembly.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things we say in re at Remnant Radio is that Sunday morning is for the mature expression of the gifts.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good standard, particularly for larger gatherings.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: House church, it might be different, but in a larger gathering, like your worship leader, you don't just pick some rando and be like, hey, you're learning guitar, you you learned it yesterday, you're just trying to pick it up.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you leave worship today and play?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, you don't do that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: You want somebody who's experienced in that gift to take that stage.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Same idea with teaching.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you don't say, Oh, you you aspire to be a teacher and you taught one Sunday school class in your life.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you teach 300 people this Sunday?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, you you let somebody mature and grow in their gifting.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we apply that to other gifts, we I I think it is coherent to apply it to the gifts like tongues or prophecy.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like in my church, we have uh a team of prophetically gifted individuals who've been vetted and they can come on a stage.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So not everybody can come on stage.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of have a system and it's decided upon by the elders.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Usually if I'm preaching, I'll preside over it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: If Sam's preaching, Sam storms, he'll preside over it.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I think that it could go a couple of ways, but Josh, since I've talked long enough, do you want to talk about the safe route and the risky route we were talking we were discussing before the show?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think there needs to be a couple of uh, well, this is assumption.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Who calls for the interpretation?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: That is going to assume that the one giving the tongue is not the one giving the interpretation.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think what Paul implies in 1 Corinthians 14 is hey, if you don't have the interpretation and there's no interpreter, why don't you pray that you would interpret, get the interpretation, and then share the interpretation.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll address that in our next question when we talk about who gets to do the tongue, who gets to do the interpretation.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: But let's just assume for the the sake of the conversation that we have a tongue talker and an interpreter.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is one, I think explicitly what is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think then there is probably wisdom on how we then apply what Paul is focused on in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I can see a couple different ways this would be applied.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: One is that an individual who, you know, can pray in tongues looks and sees that there is a person in the room that has been regularly graced with a gift of interpretation and thinks to themselves, well, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna rattle it off.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're in the point of the service where we've done preaching, uh, some people are sharing prophetic ministry.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is the time in the service that would be appropriate decently in order to give tongues an interpretation.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna start speaking in tongues.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And they start going, well, here's the assumption.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: You have to believe that that person is going to get the interpretation for that tongue, and maybe they don't.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe there's two or three people present, and now you've just spoken in tongues publicly, and maybe unbelievers are present.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: As a pastor, I would go, hey, does anyone have an interpretation?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd be looking towards the members of our church that have good character and doctrine and faithful exercise of that interpretive gift to be doing that sort of thing.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if that person doesn't come to pass, it's like that's risky.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of looks like what's happening in 1 Corinthians 14, though.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: It it kind of looks like what Paul is instructing people to do.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think that's risky.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think though I can keep with the spirit of Paul and still practice what Paul is commanding, maybe in a different way, which would be if someone in my church uh believes that they're supposed to give a word in tongues, they would go to the designated interpreters and just share to them.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you could say, Hey, you know, can you come over here?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I got I think I've got a tongue that I need to interpret it.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd share the tongue.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they'd get interpretation from a couple of people.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: They say, hey, we think this is dad interpretation, if there's confirmation there, to then bring that before uh the elder, the pastor, or during a designated time in the service where interpretations were given, then they would share that in that context.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: What that allows us to do is to one, follow the spirit of what Paul is saying without violating any of the potential errors.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I must confess, I don't think that's what Paul is explicitly instructing in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's probably the safest way to practice what Paul is instructing in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Michael, do you think I'm uh over my skis anywhere here, or did I do a fair job?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's exactly right.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think Paul Paul doesn't like just deeply spell it out.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's why I was saying what I did about prophecy at the top of the episode was that you know he's saying, hey, two or three prophets speak, the others weigh what is said.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like he doesn't have that kind of counsel for tongues.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's just basically like, don't do it without an interpreter.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so it does sound a little bit to me like he is advising the what we're calling the quote unquote risky approach, which is hey, if there's an interpreter present, somebody who has that spiritual gift, that they have displayed it consistently, that God gives them interpretations of tongues, then okay, you're free to speak in tongues in a public way.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the reason we call it risky is what if that person doesn't get an interpretation this time?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I think first of all, what I would counsel any church that's just getting started in spiritual gifts, and you know, my church has about 10 minutes at the end of the service, five, ten minutes.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it depends, not every single service, but most services where we'll we'll make some time for the practice of these kinds of gifts with with vetted teams.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um we don't we usually focus more on prophecy than we do in tongues, to be quite honest.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh we can talk about that some more if we want to in this episode, but uh but what I was going to say is uh I I do think first Corinthians 14 models hey, you shouldn't be embarrassed of the spiritual gifts, you shouldn't tuck them away in a corner and uh and pretend you kind of don't believe in them so that like you can just reach more people.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of like, well, the scripture actually lays out we should practice the gifts.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, Paul even says to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the prop gift of prophecy.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're to practice the gifts in the public assembly, and so I just want to do what the Bible says.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so when it comes to tongues, I think it is a little more risky.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I have done it before where I've had a team of interpreters ready to interpret, and then part of what's been beautiful is when the interpretations start to line up, just as you talked about, Josh.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: But what I would advise somebody, if a church is just getting into it, is I would say you probably don't know whether you have an interpreter.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would recommend doing it more discreetly with a uh with the elders or an elder, uh, just because you don't want to run the risk that it doesn't get interpreted, because Paul is concerned about that, and therefore so should we be.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we have a conference speaker in the comment chat saying he can't wait to come to the conference, jump on the microphone, and start speaking in tongues.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that won't actually happen.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: John Mark is merely being uh a jokester.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so don't don't listen to him.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: He'll we will kiss Mike's denomination that loves the gift of tongues.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed, indeed he is.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed he is.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and we will we will continue to pray him into uh the more evangelical version of the denominational world.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Here's here's here's uh something I want to uh punt to you guys.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys are really interested in seeing tongues on display, because people are like, hey, Michael, Josh, would you all speak in tongues now so that we can listen and see if what we think is tongues is legit or not?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've already said we're not gonna do that, but if you want to come to the conference where there will be tongues and interpretation, I do believe Miller is running an entire session on tongues and interpretation, unless that's you, Roundtree.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would encourage you guys to come back.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing tongues interpretation now.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's Miller then.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you guys should come check it out.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be a breakout session.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned on the show that that was like one of like one of my first big arguments with my wife pre-marriage.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, because she was Pentecostal.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because she had grown up Pentecostal, and she she one day was like, I have a secret.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, What's your secret?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh or she she was like, I have something to tell you.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Oh my gosh, it sounds really heavy and big.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: What's the deal?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was a cessationist at the time, and she was just she said, I speak in tongues.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Oh no, this is horrible.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but anyway, as we worked through it, I was like, Show me your tongues.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, not your tongue, your tongues.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to hear it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, Michael, this is this is I know I caught myself, I knew you were gonna jump on it, Josh.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh anyway, it just I'm just gonna say it went downhill from there.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: But we worked through it and we've been married for over 20 years.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Question number three, Josh.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna ask you timeout.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: You guys come check out the conference.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that you understand that prophecy and hearing the voice is not like Christian superpowers, right?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not the hero of the story.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: The aim of this is to glorify what Christ has done for us.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus comes and does more.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: He brings the kingdom of God with him.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not only that we get to be forgiven, but he invites us as sons and daughters into that kingdom and to demonstrate that kingdom.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Guys, come hang out with us October 1st through the third uh this fall in Houston, Texas.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's a conference where we talk about hearing God's voice, prophecy, gift of tongues, interpretation, lots of other subjects.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to use John Mark Baker's comment as a way to segue into the commercial, but then Michael had to talk about his wife and her tongue.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I apologize, round tree.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Where were you with the that third third or fourth question that you were gonna ask?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, the third.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Can one person give both the tongue and the interpretation?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of touched on this, so I think we can make it short.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or does Paul assume two different people?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I I think that the default is probably that he assumes different people because there is interdependence on the body of Christ, and he doesn't want one person necessarily doing all the stuff as much as he wants the body to be interdependent on one another.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I would also encourage that kind of interdependence.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say uh yes, uh he assumes that, but also makes room for the uh contrary or the opposite, which would be that the individual who speaks in a tongue, if there's not an interpreter, God will give grace for an interpretation.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if God really wants to communicate this, he will provide a means in which this is communicated.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the generally the thrust there.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I don't I I would agree with you.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that there needs to be a whole lot of time on it.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'll ask you the fourth question here is is two or three in each intern, that limit given in First Corinthians 14 and 27, a cap on per person tongue speakers in a given service, uh, or is there something else going on there?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think Keener suggests that there's something else going on there.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, um, I know what you and Miller have said that it's it's a pace setter, not a hard ceiling, that the church weighs that what is said, maybe two or two or three have spoken, and then maybe there's kind of a weighing time, and then maybe two or three more can speak.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I mean, maybe, but I'm just trying to picture a church service where I have five, six, nine, twelve tongue speakers going one by one and interpreting.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's just never a world where I'm gonna do that.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Prophecies, I I mean, I would do those kind of maybe I would do that if if we had a conference on the gift of tongues.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't think there's a enough on that.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe actually we probably could, but uh uh what I want to say though is like I could imagine a conference setting being a little bit different.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for instance, for our prophecy conferences, we might have prophecy go on for longer than we ever would in a normal standard church service.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: We were doing lots of other things.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: We we're having communion, and there might be uh testimony or announcements or uh benedictions.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we probably still have a benediction in our conferences, but uh my point is the church services are just different than conferences, it's not exactly the same, so I probably have more.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but it sounds like Josh, you you actually would have potentially 20 to 30 unique.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: You you know for a fact that in the show notes I said I could not imagine a world where there's 20 or 30 minutes in tongues.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote these show notes.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to get you back.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're like you made the wife tongue awkward.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Just repeated back to you what you said.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's a good go ahead.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I've already lost.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Listen.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is the problem in our friendship, is you think faster than me.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have my comeback tomorrow.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm way better over text.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it'll be something involving my mother.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, here we go.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: So let's let's uh dive into uh this one here.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I I I think in principle I'm open to more because I think what he is saying is, hey, there's a prophet who speaks, a prophet who speaks, a prophet who speaks, test and away what's being said.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think Michael probably agrees with this, even though he's trying to be cheeky here.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think what Michael would allow that in his service, maybe a fourth person to give a prophetic word.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if I'm going to take 1 Corinthians 14, 29, which says let's two or three prophets speak, while the others test and weigh what's being said, I don't think that's a hard and fast rule to say never allow a fourth person to prophesy in a single gathering.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: You have to wait and break for lunch before you come back for the evening service for there to be another prophecy.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I think what is being said is it needs to be whatever needs to be said needs to be given, and then there's to be a time of testing.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I would not have a hard and fast rule that we would never allow a fourth person to prophesy.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's talking about the order of decree something, test something, decree something, test something.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: You might have you might have convinced me.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you might have convinced me.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you were just trying to make a point to be funny.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um got over your C's a little bit.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have typically like at my church, we'll typically not have more than three prophetic people go consecutive.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, at the same time, it's just there's a lot happening in a service.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there's also just for us a practical ramification of four, five, six, and seven is just kind of an insane number for a church service.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've never to listening to the.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know what, but we also have house churches, and because we're a church of house churches, that's why I'm a little bit schooled on the first Corinthian situation and uh the gatherings of the house churches.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but you know, in a house church, I would have never batted an eye if like this happens regularly, absolutely actually, where we're praying for someone, we'll gather around, maybe someone has a need, or we just decide to pray for somebody, and maybe a few people prophesy over that person, and then maybe there's some conversation, and then we kind of resume and somebody else got a prophetic word.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so I guess in practic practicality, I've agreed with you all along.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, Josh, you you never convinced me of a thing.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, uh couple couple things I'll mention there is I agree with you.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we would have a rule.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I've never done tongues and interpretation in a corporate assembly at King's Fellowship.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Not saying I never would.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: We just it's not been presented because it's not necessarily a gift we as a community are pursuing a ton of, um, which I'd be happy to do more of.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, we invited Michael to come out and and chat on it uh in the near future, but he's like, I don't know, I've got to celebrate dad's or something.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but dad's weekend for my daughter, who just went to college a month ago.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: She just left, Michael.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, she's she doesn't miss you that much.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: What what I was trying to say was uh I think I would agree with Michael, probably in principle.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think in our assembly, we wouldn't have no more than three public words shared either.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but the way that we currently function in the gift of prophecy at our assembly is up front at the altar, kind of a prayer time.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Someone can come up and ask God for direction, they'll pray over them, record that prophetic word, send it to the prophetic team leader, send it to the person who comes up and receives the word.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Totally copying Michael Roundtree's playbook that he put together at uh Well Spring and is used in multiple churches since.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um that that's kind of how we operate, um, mostly because my folks don't want to do prophetic ministry from stage, uh, but certainly can.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I I've traveled with multiple of those individuals at conferences who have done it from the stage.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's neither here nor there for why we do it, why we don't do it.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think I'm with you then.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, though, Josh, I think we need to talk about this.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think because so my church has done tongues and interpretation from the stage once.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I did it at my first church well spring probably a couple of times.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we really consistently do prophecy.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when you read 1 Corinthians 14, tongues by itself is lower than prophecy in rank, but tongues with interpretation is equivalent to prophecy by rank, I mean in terms of its edifying capacity.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul says at the beginning, eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially to get to prophecy.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he really wants churches going after this.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if interpretation is equivalent in value to prophecy, Josh, why are you and I in our churches not more consistently pursuing tongues and interpretation in corporate services?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think do we just have a little bit of seeker-sensitive bone in us?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what's happening?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, no, I don't I don't necessarily think that's the case.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh one, we do not have um a lot of consistent interpreters in my assembly.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the gifting is going to determine what kind of expressions that you're going to see in your assembly.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um certainly we can pray for and ask for those sorts of things, but I think prophecy um is also um a little bit easier as it relates to um a lack of interdependence.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can share a prophetic word, it can be confirmed by the hearer.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's true of my situation.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: It can be tested amongst other prophetic folks, it can be tested against the scripture.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: One done, we're happy, we're good.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas uh tongues and interpretation um, I think makes that more difficult because you don't know if an interpreter is present.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we see the same thing uh in Paul in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, look, guys, prophesy.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: Prophecy is the best, pursue prophecy, do that.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And tongues is good, but if it doesn't have interpretation, remain silent.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's exactly what we're practicing, which is we don't have a ton of interpreters.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I've got some kids that have consistently interpreted prophecy that I go, yeah, that's awesome.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also I it's not necessarily a person I want in front of my assembly instructing them on what God is saying uh without having substantive doctrine and character being fleshed out in their lives.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the same way that I wouldn't put a teacher up to teach that was a child.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would I would want them to have a more robust theological It's uh well I'll let everyone speak to their own children.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, where's that mute button?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: What were we saying?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think you hit the nail on the head.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is that prophecy is much more easily testable than tongues.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it well, you really there were you had two chief arguments.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was one, and the other is you don't have uh you have more gifted prophets in your church than you do have gifted tongues interpreters, but they kind of feed on one another because if you don't have multiple gifted tongues interpreters, then you're less likely to uh be able to test it.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: You you might have just a tongue that's spoken and no one to interpret.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we're trying to obey the scripture in that.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, I think that the in a the difficulty testing it, you know, like I think for instance Chris Reed, whom we've called out before on the show many times.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um He had that situation where he is clearly reading from an iPad.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would say clearly, most people who've seen the video say clearly a tongue, and then a woman has an interpretation for the tongue, but he doesn't he acts like, well, I'm gonna still wait and listen.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: So he gives the exact same tongue again while reading his iPad, and then the woman could gives her interpretation again, as I recall, and he still doesn't acknowledge it.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then someone from the back says, Oh, I speak Russian, you're speaking my language, and you're saying, Hey, people outside of this city, you should move here to this church, which really, really looks like he didn't want the woman's interpretation.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted somebody to understand it in Russian for it to look really supernatural and to manipulate people in moving to his church.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way it really, really looked.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be my interpretation of the scene.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: But here's my point.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: What you're saying is that my point for this conversation was that the woman had so-called interpretations.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't right because they weren't what the Russian speaker in the uh congregation said.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, it's really hard to test tongues.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when I've got an auditorium full of people, I just want to be more sure.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that said, I still think it's worth pursuing because it is on par with prophecy if it's interpreted.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you're being so careful uh because you're like allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, because you want to be careful about like what you say explicitly.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what you're saying is allegedly, Chris Reed is a weenie.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's move on to number five.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: What should happen if someone starts speaking in tongues and no interpreter comes forward?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, like in our context, that wouldn't happen because the way that we practice it in our local assembly is that the tongues would be given to someone for an interpretation before that would go public.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not even a concern for us.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think probably if I'm just speaking on a broad level, I'm in a service, I'm at someone else's church.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just say I'm in someone else's church where they don't practice tongues or teach tongues like I do, and someone says, you know, they start cranking off tongues.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: I wait a moment, look to the pastor, how do you guys handle this?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh maybe wait for an interpretation.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: We wait for an interpretation, nothing happens, and I go, hey guys, look, um, you know, this isn't my house.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Your pastor can clean this up when I leave.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the Bible says if there's no interpreter, that we have to remain silent.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd encourage uh you to verify that there's someone present with the gift of interpretation who can interpret that tongue before anything like that is shared.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's the way I'd coach it.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no disrespect for the person.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, love you.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that you're just practicing what is normative to you and your culture and your like theological upbringing.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if there's no interpretation, I was in a meeting uh in 2018, I think it was Convergence 2018 or 2019, something like that.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Francis Chan was presiding over the meeting he was preaching, and I think he got real quiet, and then someone just started bursting out in tongues.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then Francis goes, Does anyone have an interpretation?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we just waited and waited.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Did he have an interpretation?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe eventually someone spat something out.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember, but it was weird and awkward, and it felt like someone was just trying to save the moment from biblical disorder, uh, you know, shouting out an interpretation.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was weird.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't care for it.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm sure Sam's watching this going, that's not what happened, but like I this it's what I that's what I picked up on.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we're at a conference and someone just starts speaking in tongues that I don't know, I'm gonna ask him if it's a remnant conference, I'm gonna go, please stop.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, be silent.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's the here's the thing when it comes to practicing the supernatural gifts, and I'll make it broader than than uh tongues, is that it really needs somebody to shepherd the moment.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Really, people just need explanations because they're not used to this kind of thing.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're used to church that looks a certain way.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they're not used to church that looks like what the Bible talks about in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna do it, you have to explain what's happening.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that, you know, Paul, it's interesting, like in Rick Warren's book, The Purpose-Driven Church.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've read it, uh, he uses 1 Corinthians 14 as his uh exegetical uh grounding for being a seeker-sensitive church.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, look, Paul's sensitive to the seeker, who is either an unbeliever or a character who is honestly seeker.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but I think you get that to the whole level in the cell button model muted.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: I see you trying to talk though.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: I see you I see you aiming to you got all jumbled up.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I was muted.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you you got jumbled up, like your internet connection was getting bad there for a second.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Did you did you catch what I said about Rick Warren in the purpose-driven church?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: That much, yes.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, well, now I uh since I don't know what y'all heard, I don't really want to repeat myself.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: But uh so he uses that as an example of uh of being secret sensitive.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's a good example for, you know, like, hey, because of what Paul said about tongues, we're gonna have like a roller coaster in our church service and fireworks and a man slinging from the ceiling, you know, all the things that secret-sensitive churches tend to do.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but now, since that interruption, I can't remember where I was going with that.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: What question was I even answering, Josh?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about uh tongues and interpreter, if no interpreter comes forward.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now I can't remember.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do question.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: Blame the internet.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's all good.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Internet, internet messed me up.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: All right, corporate singing and tongues in worship.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like pastor gets up, submitted to worship, or worship leader gets up, pretty common expression that's seen in lots of different spaces.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: They'll say things like, Everybody build yourself up in your most holy faith.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody pray in the spirit, and they get the whole room kind of really cranked into tongue and interpretation.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is Paul when he's talking about not to give a word in tongues, is that any different than the expression that's being seen here?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've kind of addressed this already.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would think we've addressed that.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we've addressed it, but we could dovetail it because Judah Dawkins in the chat asked, What about singing in tongues?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Paul does say, I'll pray in the spirit, I'll sing in the spirit, which is is his sort of way of saying, I will sing in tongues.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely a place for singing in tongues, but we have to consider, uh, but I think it's in that same context, and I can't read it this quickly, but I think it's in that same context where he says, But in the church, I'd rather speak five intelligible words than in a tongue.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: So sing in the spirit, I can imagine like when Paul says, I speak in tongues more than all of you, than everybody.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine Paul, as he's walking the dusty roads and sailing through the Mediterranean, he's probably shoobosh robo lobo the whole way, like all the time.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's speaking in tongues, and he's probably singing in tongues.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's probably shoobosh robo.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even gonna try, it's ridiculous, but he's probably singing in tongues too.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely a place for it.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: The question is in the corporate assembly, I would say the same rules for interpretation apply to singing in tongues as they do to praying in tongues, speaking in tongues, if there's an interpreter.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: Someone could interpret song lyrics in tongues.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, in modern churches, worship music tends to be kind of loud.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I could see a world where someone is singing in tongues, but still enough kind of under their breath that it's not really heard by anyone and not dangerous, not uh not in danger of violating First Corinthians 14.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there could be singing in tongue tongues even in church, even without an interpreter, as long as you sing quietly enough that nobody hears you.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: Josh, would you agree with that?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: I would agree with everything and be happy to move on to uh the next set of questions.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: Next question's a good question.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, should an interpret uh interpretation match the tongue word for word or convey the meaning?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you know, we did answer the question at the top of the show, seven.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: I already answered that one, which was hey, how do we really test a tongue?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I give you those three metrics that I think are pretty substantive, which is teaching.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is the word consistent with scripture?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, two, uh, is there other people confirming that word?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And three, um, you know, does it confirm something to a person who is present?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a question asked by an audience member that got us a little bit out of order, but happy to do that.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it would be question eight that I'd want to camp out, Michael, on and ask you to uh speak into uh should this be a word-for-word interpretation or a general consensus of a thing?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are different schools of thought on if the tongues is two minutes, the word needs to be two minutes.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: If the tongues was 60 seconds, the word needs to be 60 seconds, etc.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: That that is not my position.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've spoken in foreign countries a number of times and had a translator, and there will be times when I say kind of a lot and they say not that much, or there will be times when I say not that much and they say kind of a lot.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you say you need a better translator, whatever.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of how it happens.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: It and and even just outside of those circumstances, just interpersonally, I've been in translational type situations, and the person will just kind of turn aside.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying blah, blah, blah.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they just intentionally are summarizing what they're saying, and that's a fair way to do it.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it has to be word for word.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think it's unrealistic that it would be word for word.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because even Josh, if you spoke a whole like, okay, so I've been speaking for about one minute.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Josh, I want you to repeat what I said word for word.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just spoke for a minute.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can't be done, but I can synthesize its meaning.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the same thing applies to tongues.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is, Josh probably wasn't even listening to a single word, so he probably couldn't even do his summarizing.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: What'd you say?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think summaries are fair.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Josh, I want to come back though to one other thing because I actually remembered what I was saying before the internet uh jumbled my tongues.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Get it?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was talking about pastor shepherding the moment.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when I get up and we have that portion of our service, even if it's just prophecy, I'll say something like, Hey guys, this part of the service, we tend to have uh a portion where we practice the gift of prophecy, and the gift of prophecy is a gift in the New Testament, and uh scriptures explicitly command us to practice it in our corporate gatherings, and so that's what we're doing.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh our encouragement to you is that you weigh what is heard, and usually sometimes I'll share words over the whole church, sometimes I'll share words over individuals.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: The second one's more common because it's more easily testable, so I encourage it that way.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but if they speak over an individual, the person has permission to say, uh, you know, they'll we'll ask them, like, is this accurate?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say yes, and sometimes they'll say no, and you know, we'll apologize.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but in addition, we give we ask permission, like, do I have permission, or would you like to hear a word, uh, a prophecy, uh, or would you prefer not to hear it from the stage?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because some people would rather just not be not have anything like that shared from the stage.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to honor the person's agency, because the whole thrust of 1 Corinthians 13 is love.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think that's really important, and then I would say it's actually as important as it is for prophecy, it's doubly important for tongues.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if somebody gets up there and starts speaking in a weird language, people are gonna have all kinds of questions.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, as a pastor uh or an elder, you're educated in the scriptures, just talk about it, shepherd it.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is you sometimes have to correct from the stage.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like if you get experienced prophetic people or even tongue speakers, interpreters, you're probably not gonna have to correct much.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, if it had occasions where I just kind of uh I I'm speaking in a way where I'm nudging something in a certain way.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: What made me think of this um was the Francis Chan example where you mentioned somebody spoke and he just waited for an interpretation.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to be fair, Francis was really wasn't used to those kind of settings.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've had it happen a couple of times where somebody from a different church background where they do it that way has come to my church where we don't do it that way.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've said something like, uh, okay, so you know, the person who just spoke in tongues doesn't normally come to church here, and other traditions practice it that way, and so that's fair, and I can understand why they did that.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: However, um, that's not usually the way we do it here, and here's why biblically and theologically.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but now that it's been done, I do want to ask if there's an interpreter, because that is also what Paul commands.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you see, I'm shepherding the moment in such a way that I'm not putting shame on the person who violated our house rule, uh, but I'm also not causing confusion for everyone else in the house, and so I'm I'm trying to shepherd everybody, and I think that's an important thing.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, teachers of the Bible should be able to do that, and I would encourage them to do that.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't think if they have situations where you've kind of if they didn't go to my church, I don't think I would be encouraging them, like, okay, well, let's wait for an interpretation.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, uh, let me stop you right there.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, unfortunately, like the way that our church functions and our our church order, um, those who kind of labor among us are known among us, those who serve here in our community and we know character, doctrine, background, um, track record, um, we would ask, hey, until you're a formal member of the church and you've been vetted by the community, we would ask that you not uh participate in in in tongues of interpretation.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's that might make them feel odd, but I would probably still do it.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: So my reasoning, I mean, much of that I would have said, like, hey, this is not how we do it, and this is not what we believe is kind of how the Bible would would have us do it.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would say those things, but where I the reason I would probably take a different approach, Josh, and I'm so I'll push back a little bit, is that by that point the damage is done, the tongue is out there, and you potentially have an unbeliever in the congregation who's gonna walk out, who's gonna never darken the door of a church again because of it.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm saying, hey, now that the baby's been had, so to speak, let's take care of it, let's figure out a way to make this an edifying experience.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: One is a shepherding of the uh uh like the biblical instruction that's accompanying that moment.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but two, I'm like, you know, maybe God would use it.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's uh, and what if we get an interpretation out of it and that unbeliever who's like, I'm walking out suddenly gets an interpretation where it's like, you know, he's falling on the ground and saying God's among you, like the person, 1 Corinthians 14, with accurate prophecy.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be my reasoning.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think of that?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd push back.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um a couple things.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think one, what you're doing to the unbeliever who sees that tongue speak, you're saying, one, we don't do that here.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not like that.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not known among us.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Typically, we would give an interpretation if they were, but they're not.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: In the same way, I wouldn't say, like, someone gets up and gives us a prophetic word that doesn't go to our church.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: I would be like, nope, you can't do that.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of with the same capacity.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're suggesting, but I think we have to assume that that person is in fact a believer that is ministering in the community, unbeknownst to the community.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have to assume that that individual um has good character and good doctrine.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know that I'm willing to like get there yet with it.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that is I think I would treat it like prophecy.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is a fair point.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: What I like about what you said is like, let's imagine an unbeliever comes in and they hear somebody speak in tongues like that.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you cut it off and say, hey, we don't do that, we don't think that's what the Bible says, that that is a fair degree of protection for that person to not walk out like because hey, there are crazy people in every gathering of a certain size, right?
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like you get 50 or more people together, it's probably someone crazy.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're putting a stop on it, feasibly that could be enough to kind of stymie any concern that the person has.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I think what we're touching on, Josh, is uh is when you make space for these kinds of gifts, things happen sometimes that were unpredicted.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to be willing to kind of shepherd that moment.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: And since the scripture doesn't go into just purely intricate detail of every possible scenario, there are some different ways to handle things, whether right or wrong.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: And over the course of time in my shepherding, I have learned to listen to the Holy Spirit live and on the spot.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, sometimes, Josh, what I would say is, like, I actually think your word your way is uh biblical, and I it at least it doesn't disagree with scripture, and I don't think my way that I just said disagrees with scripture.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is, if I was in the moment, I'd be saying, Lord, what do you want me to do?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, what do you want me to do?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, what do you want me to do?
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'd do that.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think that's a fair and I would hope that I would do the same and not just kind of knee-jerk reaction.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think the reason I would use the knee-jerk reaction is that I've communicated to our assembly over and over how much we cherish the ability to serve them as a community, and that we are not going to put people in front of them that will prophalie over them, who will, you know, steal their data on Facebook, who will um, you know, fraudulently, you know, perform miracles, who will um, you know, do uh all kinds of wacky stuff um over over individuals, that we're gonna know their character, we're gonna know their doctrine, and we're not gonna allow any kind of just charismatic craze that like in the heat of the moment and this great passionate zeal that we're just gonna allow anyone to minister.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's uh a pain point for a lot of people.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we've been trying to consistently communicate that that's just not how we do things and we won't do things.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that part of this loving people is like loving the assembly that I've given my commitment to to like try to shepherd them well and prevent some of the oddities from taking place like that.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, now you asked me a question a moment ago about like, hey, Josh, have you ever seen this?
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've never seen it in my assembly again because our folks are trained.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: I also don't have a ton of unbelievers or um people outside of my shirt church showing up every Sunday.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: I might have one person who comes in because they heard the podcast and they want to check out the church from a distant land come to visit, that kind of thing.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh it's not all that common.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: I will tell you though, I have seen at least three occasions where in a Pentecostal meeting someone shut down tongues and it it made me so happy every time it happened.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you will not expect, Michael, you will not expect the person.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: If I give you a thousand guesses, you wouldn't you wouldn't guess the person that I saw do this.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one was Steve Hill.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: That one's an easy layup.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in that church uh uh at Heartland, and uh and Steve shut a lady down from doing tongues.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one person gave a tongue, another person gave an interpretation, another person gave a tongue, another person gave an interpretation, another person gave a tongue, another person gave an interpretation.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: That was three.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: A fourth lady spoke up and started speaking in tongues, and he goes, No, we're done.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: No more.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was he just shut it Steve Hill.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was Steve Hill.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, it was this lady was not known in the community, and I think it was bringing him concern because one lady who was giving tongues was known in our community, the other lady was essentially a guest, and he was like, once it hit that fourth marker, he was like, We're done, it's over.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_00: But and but even that scenario is why I don't like programmed pauses where you just say anyone in a church can say something.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think if again, house church setting could be a little different, it could be a little more fluid, but I think if your church is like 60 or bigger, uh, I think you've got to have a little bit more uh shepherding over that moment and uh not just let anybody prophesy or whatever.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite ones, though, was in a Rodney Howard Brown meeting.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my, he shut something down.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: If if Rodney Howard Brown pumps the brakes on something, you know it's bad.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: This lady came into the church and she was wearing this big red hat.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh throughout the entire server, she was a giant distraction.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh worship, I mean she was a distraction, and to be a distraction during worship in a Rodney Howard Brown Brown meeting is intense.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then uh in in the preaching, bro, everybody was already twitching.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, in the preaching, she would stand up, she would throw her hands up, she'd spin around, she'd throw her arms out, and then she'd sit back down.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: All throughout the preaching, she would jump up, she'd be doing some kind of YMCA nonsense with her hands, and she would sit back.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: She was literally just causing attention to be focused on her.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end of the meeting, she stands up and begins to give a tongue, and he goes, No, ma'am, we've put up with your nonsense all night.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: We will not tolerate it any longer.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: Deacons, he was not even in his church.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: Deacons grab this woman, remove her from the building, not the lobby, all the way out the door.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: Shut the door, do not let her back it.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: He was so done.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was really funny, if I'm gonna be honest.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: That lady later showed up at my church at Wells, uh, not Wellspring, uh at Oasis of the church I was a youth pastor at.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I ran to my pastor and I said, dude, and I've seen this lady in like three meetings.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I've seen her kicked out of two meetings, and then one of the other guys that was a uh a leader of the church ran out and goes, I've seen her kicked out of another meeting.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Completely independent sources.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, she is going to try and do something in the service.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: Floyd, keep your eye out on this chick.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the service, she began to try to give a prophecy.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: And Floyd stopped her and says, ma'am, would you please come and share that with just me directly after service?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to hear it as a way to not, you know, you know, make a commotion in the service.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he handled it really well.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: He thanked me for two or three weeks.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, thank you so much for telling me that was coming.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I would have done in the moment had I not known crazy money on the front row.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is it sounds like Floyd was maybe on the stage or at least had quick, easy access to a microphone?
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: I when the one moment that I described happened, I was like on the floor and not somewhere to even like quickly access the stage.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it it was like by the time I could, he had already finished.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there are just different scenarios.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the other thing, because there's something you said that I think was really important, Josh.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you said you've you never had that happen in one of your churches that you lead.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: The only time I mean, maybe it's happened twice, but the only time I distinctly remember was once that this happened, and it was more than 10 years ago.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I was maybe 32 years old.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it was a long time.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean I was like I was like Josh's age.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was like a baby.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, just kidding.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um the the point being, when it comes to this, there's a culture that you can kind of set in place, and you actually don't usually have to worry about crazy because most people don't most people have some social sense, and as you establish those kind of house rules, like hey, we have a vetted team, and hey, vetted team, here's kind of how we want you to share a word, and we're gonna ask for permission, and we're gonna ask for feedback, and we're doing a little bit of teaching each time.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: You do that on a regular basis, I would say exceedingly rare is the scenario that we have to correct something.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exceedingly rare.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: I literally don't remember the last time I had to do it.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that's I I think that's the one area that I want to encourage people who are trying to take some steps in this.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you do really good Bible teaching, and then you say, okay, this is how as an assembly we're going to function, and you do this all the time.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: It it one is what the Bible says to how you apply that word locally.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Bible says we're gonna do Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, great.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna we're gonna sing to one another.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_01: How are we gonna do that?
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, when we do it at our church, the way that we do it is we do two songs in the beginning of uh uh the assembly.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I preach my sermon.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: We do two songs at the end of the assembly.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that's how we function.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's so the Bible doesn't say two in the front, two in the back.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say uh too fast, one slow.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say um, you know, this many songs need to be um centered on the crucifixion and this many songs on his exaltation and this many songs.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say any of those things.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: It leaves it open for wisdom on how to rightly practice and appropriate that teaching.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for uh anyone who is teaching the Bible regularly, you can say, hey, this is what the Bible says, this is Tongues' interpretation, this is how we're practicing it in our assembly.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think it's the exact same thing, and it gives instruction, it gives direction, and it it allows people to self-correct, self-police, um, and it becomes the culture of the church.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes the culture of the assembly, and that's a really good and healthy thing to do.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'd love to see more tongues and interpretation in my assembly, um, but I I want it definitely done in the same way that I want more prophecy in my assembly, which is vetted, tested, you know, character uh verified individuals.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, I I think at your church and my church, Michael, I have seen more healings, more deliverances, more provency, prophecies in a year's time than I have seen in four or five years' times as a Pentecostal.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone has this idea that this is a quenching of the spirit by having rules, by having order, I just I do not see that in my practice.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I see us pursuing the real, the authentic, the genuine.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I see less disorder, I see more of God on display.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would just argue for more of that because I think even in my Pentecostal days, the stuff that I did see, I really question how much of it was legitimate and how much of it was an emotional lathering.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Again, not a jab at my Pentecostals.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's just to say that was my experience in the Pentecostal congregation I was attending, while also recognizing there were other Pentecostal spaces that were much more policed and ordered that were good.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Dial down the hype, dial up Jesus.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: We want our gatherings centered on him.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if our practice of the gifts were all centered on Jesus, we'd have a lot fewer cessationists.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because the reason people are cessationists is not because the Bible teaches cessationism, it's not because there's any text that suggests cessationism, uh, really, in my opinion.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not for those reasons, it's because uh we have bad charismatics.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have people abusing the gifts, we have people going crazy, we have people like the woman with the red hat that Josh talked about, that uh they're being exhibitionists, and too many people are unwilling to challenge it.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: We need to challenge it.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, we don't need to be mean spirited about it, but if we keep the gifts centered on Jesus, more people will be continuationist because they they want the the reason they go to church is Jesus, and so I I think away with the hype, away with the exhibitionism, away with the idea that to correct something is quenching the spirit.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: That is categorically false.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've shared this in the Bible.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, like the office of the prophet in the Old Testament was essentially correct people, right?
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where do we get this notion?
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy talk.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, Michael, I thought you were done.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: I apologize.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Keep interrupting you.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I've shared this story a couple times on the podcast, and I'll finish with this because I know we we've gone on longer than we intended.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, the the the a lot of people are afraid of like policing um certain activities or ordering certain activities.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Policing just sounds so disciplinarian, and I get that.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't mean to make it sound that way, but but directing and ordering the affairs of the church, and they're afraid of doing that because they're afraid of quenching the spirit, afraid of turning people off uh from Christ, um, you know, maybe shrinking the church in some way.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, hey, look, uh, I love this story of my friend Alan Mormon, who his last name is Mormon.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't a Mormon.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_01: He was a youth pastor in a church.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was like 17 as a youth pastor or 18 as a youth pastor, and he had a a girlfriend in the youth group who was uh just a little bit younger than he was.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think she was like maybe 17.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, she got pregnant.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, pastor brought them both on stage and said, Hey, look, this is what happened.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna gossip about this, we're not gonna slander about this.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is what has happened.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: He has stepped down.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's gonna marry this girl, he's gonna own this and take care of this family.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's repentant of this.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Feel free to grab gather around them, love on them, embrace them into this community.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: But what we're not gonna do is shame them, make them feel small, and and add insult to injury, but we're gonna like humbly restore, right?
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it was a beautiful time.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Three people joined the church.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that was really interesting because some people are afraid.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: If I do church discipline, people are gonna run and frayed and think that we're heavy-handed.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the opposite is actually true.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: People feel safe.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if you are in an assembly and your answer to a given manifestation or demonstration of prophecy or tongues and healing, and your response is like, hey, no, we're just not gonna do that.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it actually causes people to feel safe.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, as an elder of a local assembly, that's what you're there to do, um, is to help care for God's people.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if anything could potentially damage that reputation of yours as one who protects the people of God, it damages the long-term credibility of your ministry.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it doesn't affect it, and it affects those congregants that that are there present when something crazy could happen.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I would encourage people and do do more when it comes to ordering your service decently.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Round Tree, I'm done, man.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have anything you want to add to the program before we sign off?
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I'm I'm pretty much done.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Just uh sign up, come to our conference.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: We want you, we want to see you guys, we want to shake your hand and uh wanna wanna just I don't know, get everybody together, talk about the gifts.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna focus on prophecy this time.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's in Houston, so it's easy to access from anywhere.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can fly from Germany to Houston in one flight.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Our friend Waldemar, Valdemar, is doing exactly that.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so come home, it's gonna be a good time.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's about all I got, man.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's good good chatting with you.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit of banter, but uh trash talk is our love language.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's no hurt feelings about it.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: No hurt feelings about it.