Latest / The You Project / #1786 Out of Hell - Mick Hall (Part 2)

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#1786 Out of Hell - Mick Hall (Part 2) · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: Good eight Team. Welcome back to part two of my
0:02
Speaker 1: chat with Nick. Got some really good feedback about part one.
0:05
Speaker 1: If you haven't listened, you might want to listen to
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Speaker 1: that first. Probably doesn't matter too much because we talk
0:09
Speaker 1: about different stuff. But nonetheless, here we are Mick Hall
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Speaker 1: and myself winding up our discussion from yesterday.
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Speaker 2: Enjoy because remember this one crazy boy. Addiction comes in people.
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Speaker 2: That doesn't come in bottles. Yeah, Addiction comes in people.
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Speaker 2: And you can put the bottle down, you can put
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Speaker 2: everything down with the addiction is still in the person.
0:32
Speaker 2: And if it's not treated, we're going to look for
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Speaker 2: the escape button again. And what's the escape button? Anything
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Speaker 2: that can make me escape life, anything that can trigger
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Speaker 2: that dopamine hit the right amount of dopamine that allows
0:47
Speaker 2: me to medicate everything again. And that's why people move,
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Speaker 2: They change their drug of choice. They can say, yea,
0:54
Speaker 2: I was addicted to alcohol, but I'm good now, but
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Speaker 2: I'm on the bonds every night, right right? Or none? No,
1:01
Speaker 2: I've stopped drinking, but you know now I'm down the
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Speaker 2: pokies and I don't drink, but I'll put your money
1:05
Speaker 2: in the pokies. Yeah, or it just shifts and changes.
1:10
Speaker 2: So we call it swapping the witch for the bitch,
1:13
Speaker 2: all right, and we're just the bitch and shape shifts
1:17
Speaker 2: because the person's only looking at treating the symptom. They're
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Speaker 2: only looking at treating the substance it's taking. That's not
1:24
Speaker 2: that's not treating the problem.
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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So so if the using and the drinking
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Speaker 1: and the pawn and the gambling and all of that,
1:34
Speaker 1: that that behavior is the symptom, Yeah, what is what
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Speaker 1: is the problem?
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Speaker 2: The problem is in the thinking, and it's in this
1:46
Speaker 2: or there's a defect in the brain and the mid
1:48
Speaker 2: brain and in the hierarchy system. It's in that part
1:51
Speaker 2: of the brain, the primal part of the brain which
1:54
Speaker 2: gets us to breathe, gets us to you know, feel hunger,
1:59
Speaker 2: that type of stuff that doesn't think about right or
2:01
Speaker 2: wrong or anything like that. It's just there and it's
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Speaker 2: a part of our hierarchy system, in that part of
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Speaker 2: the brain that is somewhat defective. Where how can I
2:14
Speaker 2: explain this? Where the need to escape the way that
2:22
Speaker 2: we think and the way that we feel becomes more
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Speaker 2: important than the basics of life. It becomes more important
2:28
Speaker 2: than paying rent, becomes more important than my wife begging
2:32
Speaker 2: me please stop drinking or I'm going to leave you.
2:36
Speaker 2: It becomes more important than I'm going to lose my
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Speaker 2: job and I'm going to go financially bankrupt. It becomes
2:42
Speaker 2: more important than these things. What we're really chasing is dopamine.
2:46
Speaker 2: Addiction is part of the pleasure construction of our brain.
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Speaker 2: It's not only dopamine, but dope means the main neurochemical
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Speaker 2: that I kind of provides that your forage state state. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: so do you reckon that?
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Speaker 1: I reckon that? Correct me if I'm wrong. But like
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Speaker 1: for me, I think there are emotional drivers as well
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Speaker 1: to addiction. I'm lonely, I feel isolated, I feel disconnected.
3:17
Speaker 1: I fucking because I remember you telling me when you
3:20
Speaker 1: were a kid, you felt lonely and isolated and rejected
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Speaker 1: and dejected, and then you picked up whatever the fuck
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Speaker 1: it was booze at twelve, which was sherry or something horrible, wasn't.
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Speaker 2: It, Yeah, with port?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, port, And you drank that and it tasted disgusting.
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Speaker 1: But the feeling of being inebriated, the feeling that came
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Speaker 1: with the disgusting drink, that kind of alleviated some of
3:44
Speaker 1: that emotional pain or social pain. Am I right?
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Speaker 2: It did? Yeah? Yeah, But I see that as not
3:54
Speaker 2: necessarily the effect of the alcohol, although I liked the
3:56
Speaker 2: effect of the alcohol, but it was the effect of
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Speaker 2: the dopamine. My brain being flooded with dopamine. That's what
4:03
Speaker 2: gave me the relief. That's what made me think, holy shit,
4:06
Speaker 2: because see, I didn't even realize it. So addiction can
4:09
Speaker 2: be described as obsession of the mind and a physical allergy.
4:16
Speaker 2: So once I put the alcohol in, I just can't stop.
4:19
Speaker 2: I just wanted to keep going. And before I've put
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Speaker 2: it in, I've always got this I call it the
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Speaker 2: iaty biddy shitty committee. I've got the voices in their
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Speaker 2: head going all the time, and that's where I've got
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Speaker 2: self doubt. I'm unsure. I don't want to be here.
4:35
Speaker 2: I want to find my way out of here. I
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Speaker 2: want to all this thinking in that all this thing
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Speaker 2: I don't fit in, and all this sort of stuff.
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Speaker 2: And then when the dopamine is released in my brain,
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Speaker 2: all of that just goes quiet, it stops, and it's
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Speaker 2: that's the ultimate peace of mind. And people that get
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Speaker 2: into recovery from addiction, that's ultimately what we're seeking this
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Speaker 2: peace of mind, and we've been running away. We've all
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Speaker 2: been running away for so long. We've been running away
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Speaker 2: from ourselves. And why we're running away from ourselves because
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Speaker 2: for some reason, inside of every addict, there's this sneaking
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Speaker 2: suspicion that's been there, probably well before we ever drink
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Speaker 2: will use. There's a sneaking suspicion that we're not good enough,
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Speaker 2: we don't measure up, and maybe we're maybe we're pathetic.
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Speaker 1: And maybe unlovable. Unlovable. Yeah, yeah, So I've got a
5:35
Speaker 1: random question. I don't think I've ever asked you. Do
5:38
Speaker 1: you think that? And remember everyone, this is just a chat.
5:41
Speaker 1: This is not therapy, This is not a prescription. This
5:45
Speaker 1: is just a very sweary chat. Do you think that
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Speaker 1: codependency is a type of addiction?
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Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you emphatically that every adduct on
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Speaker 2: the face of the planet is codependent.
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Speaker 1: Go on, So I'm talking about codependent with another human, right, Yeah?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, codependence is codependency, whether it's with another human
6:15
Speaker 2: or whatever. But yeah, we're all codependent. We're dependent on connection.
6:20
Speaker 2: Were dependent on a particular type of connection, one that
6:24
Speaker 2: gives us the type of relief that we need. And
6:27
Speaker 2: so what you can often find happen when people first
6:30
Speaker 2: try to give up drink, drugs, whatever it is that
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Speaker 2: they're doing, is that all of a sudden, they're in
6:37
Speaker 2: a relationship or they're with somebody, and the codependency rears
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Speaker 2: its head and the person becomes absolutely reliant on that
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Speaker 2: relationship for them to be okay, because they're not used
6:51
Speaker 2: to being able to. And recovery is about learning how
6:56
Speaker 2: to find the sense of our self and be able
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Speaker 2: to process life ourselves without seeking external ways of doing that. So,
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Speaker 2: whether that be enmeshment with someone else, whether that be
7:15
Speaker 2: in meshment with another substance, and that can it can
7:18
Speaker 2: happen in all types of different ways, and we all
7:21
Speaker 2: look for distractions, you know, at different times, whether it
7:25
Speaker 2: be through sport, gym, you know, it can be through
7:29
Speaker 2: sort of healthy avenues, but genuinely gents or not genuine
7:35
Speaker 2: generally through relationships. What happens is is that it becomes
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Speaker 2: it becomes very messy when we when we fall in
7:44
Speaker 2: love with someone, it creates a beautiful dopamine response and
7:48
Speaker 2: it's one that can be quite similar to using and
7:53
Speaker 2: drinking and to other addictions. And you know, I was
7:57
Speaker 2: actually just talking to a young gentleman, you believe, last night.
8:01
Speaker 2: So actually one of my son's friends, and he's gone
8:05
Speaker 2: through a bit of a problem where he'd split up
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Speaker 2: with a girl and it's absolutely almost destroyed him, and
8:14
Speaker 2: he's obsessed and he needs an escape. And I was
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Speaker 2: able to say to him last night, Look, it's good
8:21
Speaker 2: that you're talking about this because you know, relationships are
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Speaker 2: a huge factor in people becoming suicidal, becoming horrendously depressed,
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Speaker 2: and it's because we have that enmeshment. It's because that
8:42
Speaker 2: we put all our value and our belief on what
8:46
Speaker 2: that person feels about us and thinks about us. Yeah,
8:50
Speaker 2: and it's just, you know, it's an awful way to
8:54
Speaker 2: be because it means we're at the whim. You know,
8:57
Speaker 2: we're controlled, we're emotionally controlled by others. And recovery from
9:01
Speaker 2: addiction actually addresses codependentity because what we want is true
9:07
Speaker 2: independence of the spirit of us, and we need to
9:11
Speaker 2: find a way to be emotionally and psychologically okay. No
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Speaker 2: matter who does says things, acts in any in any
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Speaker 2: shape in our off we need to find a way
9:29
Speaker 2: to be okay, and we need to find a true
9:32
Speaker 2: sense of ourselves so that we don't have to be
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Speaker 2: reliant on someone else providing that sense of ourselves.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting that this is an interesting chat, right,
9:45
Speaker 1: the sixty one year old that lives by himself and
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Speaker 1: he's like a fucking island in a sea of humanity
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Speaker 1: going fuck off. I'm okay, No, I'm fine, what do
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Speaker 1: you mean?
9:55
Speaker 2: No?
9:55
Speaker 1: I you know, it's like it is interesting because really,
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Speaker 1: really really fucking loving someone is awesome and terrifying.
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Speaker 2: It's risky, right because.
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Speaker 1: You open that door right up now again everyone, this
10:10
Speaker 1: is me just thinking out loud and I understand it.
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Speaker 1: And so to a point, like you want to be
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Speaker 1: self sustaining I don't mean as in dysfunctionally alone. And
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Speaker 1: you know you've got a big sign on your head
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Speaker 1: that says fuck off. Right, you want to be self
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Speaker 1: sustaining so that you're not co dependent, but at the
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Speaker 1: same time you want to be available and vulnerable but
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Speaker 1: finding that balance, you know, where you know you can
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Speaker 1: love and be loved. But you are I'm not talking
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Speaker 1: about people who are unwell here, I'm talking about you know,
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Speaker 1: in general terms. But but yeah, you're not your your
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Speaker 1: your sense of worth and you know, self esteem and
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Speaker 1: value is not dependent on somebody else's acceptance or love
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Speaker 1: or you know, because then we just create. You know,
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Speaker 1: this is not a this is not win win, this
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Speaker 1: is not a healthy relationship. And you think about how
11:09
Speaker 1: many people you know and I know, and you've maybe
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Speaker 1: done it, and I know I've done it, you know
11:14
Speaker 1: in the old days, you know, back when you know,
11:18
Speaker 1: when I was a kid thirteen hundred years ago, I
11:20
Speaker 1: mean I was in relationships at times that were not healthy.
11:24
Speaker 1: I mean they weren't fucking toxic and destructive, but they weren't.
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Speaker 1: And you're just there because you're there, you know, I'm like, ah, well,
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Speaker 1: and it's more about familiarity and ease than it is like,
11:34
Speaker 1: oh fuck, I'm so in love. I'm so in love.
11:37
Speaker 1: They're in love. And you kind of think sometimes you
11:41
Speaker 1: attach more pain to getting out of it than staying
11:44
Speaker 1: in it, so you go, ah, fuck it, it'll probably
11:47
Speaker 1: sort itself out, you know, which is I mean, that's
11:51
Speaker 1: always that's always a great plan. I know this is shit,
11:56
Speaker 1: but it'll get I don't know how, but magically, you know,
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Speaker 1: And and that so many people that I talk to
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Speaker 1: these days that are in a relationship that you know,
12:06
Speaker 1: and I'm quantifying this and I shouldn't, but you know,
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Speaker 1: their relationship is a two or a three out of ten,
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Speaker 1: and they're not happy and the other person's not happy
12:14
Speaker 1: and it's not healthy, and nobody's life is better for it, right.
12:19
Speaker 1: But at the same time, then they come up with
12:21
Speaker 1: all of these reasons in inverted commas, why ah, fuck
12:25
Speaker 1: it, it's just not worth it. You know, there's this, and
12:28
Speaker 1: there's that, and there's the money, and there's the kids,
12:30
Speaker 1: and we've got two dogs and we've got a mortgage
12:32
Speaker 1: in this fact, you know, and then you go. And
12:34
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm not saying they should get out
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Speaker 1: of it, but I'm just thinking, I don't know that
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Speaker 1: they're great reasons to stay in something that neither of
12:42
Speaker 1: you love for the next twenty years.
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Speaker 2: You know, I agree, I agree, Jesus A bloody interesting subject,
12:49
Speaker 2: you know, like I feel like for me, for me,
12:56
Speaker 2: it's been a again to try and have a Hell,
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Speaker 2: the relationship is impossible if you're not healthy, you know,
13:06
Speaker 2: if and and by healthy I mean functional, functional, and
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Speaker 2: that I understand, so oh to speak for me that
13:17
Speaker 2: I understand myself. Yeah, And understand the truth about myself. Now,
13:22
Speaker 2: I don't just mean the truth like some obvious things.
13:25
Speaker 2: I mean the actual truth. Have you ever heard of
13:28
Speaker 2: washroom honesty before?
13:29
Speaker 1: Crago, I have not enlightened me, bro.
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Speaker 2: Washroom honesty is the type of honesty is you know,
13:35
Speaker 2: when you go to the public toilet, You go and
13:37
Speaker 2: use the public toilet, and you come out of the
13:39
Speaker 2: stall and there's no one in there, and there's one
13:42
Speaker 2: dirty little sink with it with a disgusting tap, and
13:47
Speaker 2: there's no paper tow to dry your hands. Yeah, but
13:50
Speaker 2: you still wash your hands anyway, right, all right, that's
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Speaker 2: washroom honesty. So washroom honesty with self, with ourselves and
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Speaker 2: right is the type of honesty that's needed in order
14:06
Speaker 2: to have self discovery. It's impossible to have self discovery
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Speaker 2: without that, because otherwise it's just bullshit and self delusion.
14:16
Speaker 2: So I feel fortunate that I'm a person in recovery
14:20
Speaker 2: that has a process, a proper process that I can
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Speaker 2: utilize that helps me have continuous washroom honesty with self
14:32
Speaker 2: me no matter what's going on in my life, I'm
14:36
Speaker 2: able to use this process and find out, well, what's
14:39
Speaker 2: the truth about me in regards to this situation and
14:43
Speaker 2: sometimes I've got to go through a bit of pain first,
14:47
Speaker 2: but I'm able to get to the truth of that.
14:48
Speaker 2: And of course it's been a learning process and it's
14:51
Speaker 2: taken time, and it's taken I'd still do it. That's
14:54
Speaker 2: twenty four years in recovery, and I'm now in a
14:57
Speaker 2: place where I feel that I've got a pretty decent
14:59
Speaker 2: hand and or on it in terms of it doesn't
15:02
Speaker 2: mean I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I can I
15:04
Speaker 2: can see fairly quickly when I'm going off off the road. Yeah,
15:12
Speaker 2: and I'm able to navigate my way back onto it.
15:15
Speaker 2: And so what that's done is it's allowed me to
15:20
Speaker 2: get into a relationship with someone where I have and
15:25
Speaker 2: I may I say this quite emphatically, no dependence on
15:30
Speaker 2: that person for my well being. You still love them,
15:35
Speaker 2: I love them very much, and I would and I
15:38
Speaker 2: would go to war for them, right and all that stuff.
15:44
Speaker 2: But I have no dependence. And because I have a
15:50
Speaker 2: sense of myself and I have who I am is
15:55
Speaker 2: not built around that person. It's built around who I
16:00
Speaker 2: am and what I do and how I treat people
16:06
Speaker 2: and what I want to achieve in my life.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know we're getting into really, I mean, this
16:15
Speaker 1: is fucking fascinating, right, But as you're talking you probably
16:19
Speaker 1: don't realize, but you will in a moment. So the
16:22
Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about intersex with my research and my PhD,
16:25
Speaker 1: because what you're talking about, well before that just momentarily
16:30
Speaker 1: about self awareness, right, you caught it something else, but
16:33
Speaker 1: it's the same. It's self awareness. That is, who am I?
16:37
Speaker 1: What am I like? What am I like for me?
16:39
Speaker 1: What am I doing that works? What do I do?
16:40
Speaker 1: That's fucking stupid? You know? How am I for the world?
16:45
Speaker 2: You know?
16:45
Speaker 1: I think this. Remember my research is around that thing
16:50
Speaker 1: called metapception, which is understanding what I'm like for others.
16:54
Speaker 1: In other words, what's it like for Mick right now
16:57
Speaker 1: at two fifty four on a sad diavo like for
17:00
Speaker 1: mixitting at home on his computer looking at me? What's
17:04
Speaker 1: that like for him? Right? That's a metapception kind of curiosity.
17:08
Speaker 1: And then me to have some insight into that and realize, look,
17:12
Speaker 1: I think he's enjoying the chat is we're back, and
17:15
Speaker 1: I don't think he's hating it or hating me. And
17:17
Speaker 1: having some kind of insight, right, that gives me a
17:20
Speaker 1: level of what we call meta accuracy. I just think
17:24
Speaker 1: or I'm just wondering out loud, like I think this
17:27
Speaker 1: is and it probably happens on a level, but this
17:31
Speaker 1: is a really valuable kind of construct to bring into
17:36
Speaker 1: that space, you know, the recovery space, which is, I
17:40
Speaker 1: know how you think, right, but this is how the
17:43
Speaker 1: rest of the world thinks. And now you don't need
17:45
Speaker 1: to be anyone but you, but one understanding how you
17:48
Speaker 1: think and why you think the way that you do,
17:50
Speaker 1: good or bad. We call that meta cognition, thinking about
17:53
Speaker 1: our thinking, understanding how someone else thinks, not agreeing with
17:58
Speaker 1: them or being like them, but just understanding. Remember, seek
18:01
Speaker 1: first to understand, that's called theory of mind, and then
18:05
Speaker 1: understanding what what the fuck you were like for the
18:09
Speaker 1: rest of the world. Because you might think you're shit hot,
18:12
Speaker 1: but the rest of the world thinks you're a cunt, right,
18:16
Speaker 1: And if they do and you don't know that, you're
18:19
Speaker 1: a bit. Yeah, I don't worry. And fifteen of my
18:24
Speaker 1: listeners have just unsubscribed, but that's okay. I mean, this
18:28
Speaker 1: is how Remember I said to you before we started,
18:31
Speaker 1: let's not do a podcast, Let's just talk like you
18:33
Speaker 1: and me, and this is how you and me talk.
18:35
Speaker 1: And so for the people that just got offended, I'm
18:38
Speaker 1: a little bit sorry. I'm not that sorry. But this
18:41
Speaker 1: is this is as real as it gets, right, This
18:43
Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. This is the opposite of radio.
18:46
Speaker 1: This is not fucking scripted. This is not manufactured, This
18:49
Speaker 1: is not choreographed. There was no plan other than just
18:52
Speaker 1: to be real. But I think that really, you know,
18:58
Speaker 1: like that's met a perception right there where. I know
19:00
Speaker 1: that some people won't like that language. I'm cool with that.
19:03
Speaker 1: I know that more that there'll be the largest percentage
19:06
Speaker 1: you'll be like a shoulder shrug, and probably slightly more
19:10
Speaker 1: will than won't. Go Yeah, that's funny, harps, just be
19:13
Speaker 1: you just talked, you know. But I can't And we
19:17
Speaker 1: go back to where I was in a minute. I
19:19
Speaker 1: can't run a podcast or I can't be authentic if
19:24
Speaker 1: I'm I'm putting a persona out there, if I'm like
19:29
Speaker 1: I'm pretending I talk differently to how I actually do
19:33
Speaker 1: right and well. And I guess in some environment you
19:36
Speaker 1: need to be somewhat self regulatory, but on my podcast,
19:41
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be me.
19:42
Speaker 2: Right.
19:42
Speaker 1: But anyway, back to you, like, is there ever any
19:46
Speaker 1: insight into that, you know, when you're talking to someone
19:50
Speaker 1: who's really in the you know, who's an addict, and
19:53
Speaker 1: do you ever say to them, what do you think
19:54
Speaker 1: it's like being around you? Because you're fucking wrong?
19:59
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I've got to do it quite often
20:01
Speaker 2: with people. And we call it how do we how
20:06
Speaker 2: do we call it? We call it we give people. Well,
20:11
Speaker 2: sometimes I will give people what I would call a
20:14
Speaker 2: peer evaluation. Oh wow, and we'll get the person if
20:19
Speaker 2: they're in rehab. We'll get the other people in the
20:22
Speaker 2: rehab to fill out a form and to give honest
20:26
Speaker 2: feedback to what they can see when this person and
20:31
Speaker 2: their and their their view of their interactions around this person,
20:35
Speaker 2: whether it be you know, they're always you know, like
20:37
Speaker 2: giving lip service, or they're you know, like avoiding talking
20:42
Speaker 2: about hard stuff, or if they're not honest or not
20:47
Speaker 2: being honest, or you know, they're they're being deceptive or
20:51
Speaker 2: just yeah, it's just and it's a really valuable kind
20:54
Speaker 2: of tool because we need to come out of fantasy land.
21:00
Speaker 2: You know?
21:00
Speaker 1: Is that also is that fraught with danger because I'm imagining,
21:04
Speaker 1: imagining some narcissist slash sociopaths slash slash psychopaths that you
21:11
Speaker 1: have a few of. Just statistically in a group, there's
21:14
Speaker 1: going to be someone I imagine that wouldn't go down great.
21:20
Speaker 2: No, it goes down fine. It generally generally goes down
21:23
Speaker 2: pretty good if it's done in the right way. So
21:26
Speaker 2: the reason, the way that we frame this is that
21:29
Speaker 2: this is to help a person's recovery, and this is
21:31
Speaker 2: to just point out some barriers to a person's recovery.
21:36
Speaker 2: But you know, it's like anything, there's no point just
21:38
Speaker 2: pointing out the negative. We also need to do the positive.
21:43
Speaker 2: So then we bring in the positive and said, let's
21:44
Speaker 2: bring out some positives in the person's character. What do
21:47
Speaker 2: we see? And so we find really good stuff like
21:50
Speaker 2: you know, really active listening and really engaging in group.
21:56
Speaker 2: All right, So there could be a whole range of
21:59
Speaker 2: different things in the positive side of the ledger, and
22:03
Speaker 2: it generally generally works pretty well. And I often tell
22:08
Speaker 2: people because people get all funny, Oh, I don't want
22:11
Speaker 2: to tell negative things about this person. I don't want
22:13
Speaker 2: to run them down. And I always tell people you're
22:16
Speaker 2: not running them down. It's kind of like boxing, right,
22:20
Speaker 2: If I'm in the ring, sparring, boxing, preparing for a fight,
22:24
Speaker 2: and the only the people around me only tell me
22:26
Speaker 2: what I'm doing good. That doesn't fucking help me. I
22:30
Speaker 2: actually need you to tell me what I'm doing shit,
22:33
Speaker 2: because that's what I need to work on. I don't
22:36
Speaker 2: need to work on the shit i'm doing good. I
22:38
Speaker 2: need to work on the shit i'm doing bad. Yeah. So,
22:42
Speaker 2: so pointing out the needatives, I will call them barriers
22:46
Speaker 2: to somebody, to them progressing in what they're trying to
22:50
Speaker 2: achieve is a really empowering, informative and positive process.
23:01
Speaker 1: I'm going to change directions slightly. I want you to
23:05
Speaker 1: in one minute if you can, because this is leading
23:09
Speaker 1: to something else, describe. It doesn't have to be one minute,
23:14
Speaker 1: it can be ten minutes. What do I care? What
23:16
Speaker 1: do you care? A moment that comes to mind that
23:20
Speaker 1: was about as close to rock bottom as you have
23:24
Speaker 1: ever been in the middle of addiction, and you may
23:27
Speaker 1: have shared it once before, so you might want to
23:30
Speaker 1: praisee it, but I think most people wouldn't have heard it.
23:33
Speaker 1: And then I'm asking this for a reason which will
23:35
Speaker 1: become apparent after you answer it.
23:38
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I can remember, probably right towards the end
23:44
Speaker 2: of my addiction. I've not long been out of prison
23:49
Speaker 2: up in Queensland, and I've made my way back to Melbourne.
23:52
Speaker 2: By the way, while I was in prison serving out
23:54
Speaker 2: my sentence, I swore that I would never ever use
23:57
Speaker 2: or drink again, because I knew that's what put me there.
24:00
Speaker 2: And I had a bottle of beer going down my
24:02
Speaker 2: neck about around roughly thirty minutes after being released, And
24:06
Speaker 2: within two weeks I had a needle of heroin going
24:08
Speaker 2: back in my arm again so that it didn't work
24:12
Speaker 2: too well. But look, I've made my way back to Melbourne,
24:15
Speaker 2: and I was using an abandoned building in the city
24:19
Speaker 2: in Melbourne, but just in between using I decided to
24:23
Speaker 2: go and get a drink. I went into the Young
24:25
Speaker 2: and Jackson's Hotel. I went in there and I went
24:29
Speaker 2: up to the bar and I said to the barkeep,
24:32
Speaker 2: olive the pot. And I still remember him pushing the
24:35
Speaker 2: pot across the wooden bar and I could hear it
24:39
Speaker 2: scraping along the wood. I grabbed the pot and I
24:43
Speaker 2: stuffed off the top of the phone and thought, oh,
24:47
Speaker 2: that tastes like shit. I put it back on the bar.
24:49
Speaker 2: I walked to the toilets, I had a hit of heroin.
24:54
Speaker 2: I vomited all over the toilet. I walked back to
24:58
Speaker 2: the bar and pushed the pot back across the bar
25:02
Speaker 2: to the barkeep and thought, I can't drink this, and
25:03
Speaker 2: I walked off. And I walked around to this abandoned
25:07
Speaker 2: building and I had to get up to the first
25:09
Speaker 2: floor and this abandoned building, but I couldn't get in.
25:12
Speaker 2: There was a fire hose hanging outside a window, so
25:15
Speaker 2: I climbed up the fire hose into the first floor
25:18
Speaker 2: of this building. And if you can imagine, the inside
25:21
Speaker 2: of this building was just just all a wooden frame
25:24
Speaker 2: and all of that in there, and broken plaster and
25:26
Speaker 2: just rubbish everywhere. There was rap shit all over the floors.
25:30
Speaker 2: There was this broken furniture. And I decided to have
25:34
Speaker 2: a hit a heroin in there, and I did, and
25:38
Speaker 2: it must have well, I nearly oded. Obviously I didn't
25:41
Speaker 2: because I'm still alive, but it certainly knocked me out.
25:44
Speaker 2: And I woke up, I don't know how long later,
25:47
Speaker 2: with my face stuck to the carpet, this rancid rat,
25:51
Speaker 2: shit ridden carpet, and I pulled myself to my feet
25:55
Speaker 2: and I turned around, and as I turned around, this
25:59
Speaker 2: old broken dressing table, and I had a mirror on it,
26:02
Speaker 2: and there was a broken mirror on it, And as
26:04
Speaker 2: I turned around, I caught a glimpse of myself in
26:07
Speaker 2: the mirror. And in that very moment, what I saw
26:12
Speaker 2: looking back at me chilled me to the bone. And
26:16
Speaker 2: I was thirty years old, and for the first time
26:19
Speaker 2: in my life, I saw myself as I really was.
26:23
Speaker 2: And let me describe see what I really was. I
26:25
Speaker 2: was a thirty year old man that was standing at
26:29
Speaker 2: It was filthy dirty. I had no front teeth, they'd
26:33
Speaker 2: all been punched out at the pub. At the side
26:36
Speaker 2: of my face smashed in. I had screws holding my
26:39
Speaker 2: leg together from a failed suicide attempt jumping off a
26:43
Speaker 2: bridge over a freeway. I was sixty something kilos, ringing, wet,
26:48
Speaker 2: with little chicken wings for shoulders because I've been boned
26:51
Speaker 2: out from the smack us. I had hepatitis. See, I
26:57
Speaker 2: had nowhere to go, no one to turn to, nowhere
27:03
Speaker 2: to live, no car, no nothing. And what I saw
27:07
Speaker 2: looking back at me was a dead man walking. And
27:11
Speaker 2: for the first time in my adult life ever, because
27:14
Speaker 2: I had I've had a death wish my whole life.
27:18
Speaker 2: At that moment, looking in that mirror the first time
27:21
Speaker 2: in my life, was frightened to dying. But not only
27:25
Speaker 2: was I frightened to dying, I was frightened of living
27:29
Speaker 2: because I didn't think getting recovery was possible. I've never
27:33
Speaker 2: seen anybody, especially with a heroin addiction, really genuinely ridgie
27:41
Speaker 2: ditch turned their life around. I'd never seen it, so
27:47
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was possible. And I was called
27:49
Speaker 2: in no man's land. That's what he called hell on earth.
27:52
Speaker 2: That's my bottom.
27:54
Speaker 1: Dude, dude, Oh my god. That is that. That is loss,
28:07
Speaker 1: that is full on, that is significant. That is Thank
28:11
Speaker 1: you for sharing that like that. That gives a perspective
28:15
Speaker 1: that I've heard a version of that a while ago,
28:19
Speaker 1: but quite a while ago, but not not that, not
28:22
Speaker 1: with that much clarity and not with that much kind
28:25
Speaker 1: of detail. It's all right, let's let's park that. Let's
28:30
Speaker 1: just put that on the shelf. By the way, that
28:33
Speaker 1: might become the promo for this episode, by the way,
28:36
Speaker 1: well done. Thanks for doing that, always thinking, always thinking, always,
28:43
Speaker 1: I'm my DeFore Melissa is going to love that. They'll
28:46
Speaker 1: turn that into it. But anyway, Now I want you
28:49
Speaker 1: to talk about in your boxing career. So you were
28:54
Speaker 1: thirty and today you're fifty three or something. Correct now,
29:01
Speaker 1: correct whatever I fuck up? Correct me. But in the
29:05
Speaker 1: not too distant past, in the last few years, you've
29:10
Speaker 1: won a state boxing title, a South Asian or South
29:15
Speaker 1: Pacific boxing title.
29:17
Speaker 2: Asia Pacific SEC and middle A title.
29:20
Speaker 1: And you've also won a world title in boxing. I mean,
29:24
Speaker 1: do you ever think well, firstly, tell us about that.
29:29
Speaker 1: Tell us about that dude you just described who just was.
29:34
Speaker 1: I mean, that's about as close to dead as you
29:36
Speaker 1: can be without banddad, right, And now tell me about
29:42
Speaker 1: you know, two decades plus later being a world champion athlete,
29:49
Speaker 1: obviously in masters and all that, but fucking hell, dude,
29:52
Speaker 1: even just that you could even get through that and
29:54
Speaker 1: run around the block as a major achievement, let alone
29:57
Speaker 1: becoming an elite box So tell us about the highest
30:02
Speaker 1: point in the last few years in boxing.
30:06
Speaker 2: Oh, there's been a few high points, but it's just
30:08
Speaker 2: been there's been a couple of electric moments in here,
30:10
Speaker 2: you know, like I remember, you know, my first seven
30:14
Speaker 2: fights I lost, lost.
30:18
Speaker 1: Do you know what I love that? I love that
30:20
Speaker 1: you started with that I fucking love that because I'm
30:23
Speaker 1: so much about that. That's my story, like the first
30:28
Speaker 1: seven of everything I did. I lost the first six
30:31
Speaker 1: hundred episodes of this show, the first six hundred episodes,
30:35
Speaker 1: we lost Doe. Yeah, yeah, okay, so you lost the
30:39
Speaker 1: first seven.
30:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I lost the first seven. But now is this.
30:42
Speaker 2: There was a guy I fought on my first fight.
30:45
Speaker 2: His name was Christopher Hume, not was is Christopher Hume yep,
30:49
Speaker 2: and and Christy Hume. He stopped me. I think it
30:54
Speaker 2: was in the second or third round, but he stopped me,
30:56
Speaker 2: you know, able to referee stop the fight, and was
31:00
Speaker 2: you know, that was hard pill for me to swallow, right,
31:02
Speaker 2: because it took me a lot to get to that.
31:04
Speaker 2: But it took years and years and years of training
31:08
Speaker 2: of brutality and you know, sas type training to get
31:14
Speaker 2: to the point where I could actually get in the
31:16
Speaker 2: ring like that. And it was, you know, it was
31:17
Speaker 2: a big, big deal and he won it. And so
31:22
Speaker 2: at the end of the fight, the announcers in the
31:24
Speaker 2: ring and he's got the microphone and he's getting Chris
31:27
Speaker 2: to do to do a speech, and he says, oh,
31:29
Speaker 2: do you want to say anything? And of course I
31:31
Speaker 2: did the old grab the microphone out of his hand. Yeah, sure,
31:34
Speaker 2: all I've got a few words to say, and I
31:38
Speaker 2: gave my little speech and I don't know, I don't
31:43
Speaker 2: know where this came from, but in that moment, but
31:47
Speaker 2: I said to the crowd, I said, today, you know, like,
31:52
Speaker 2: congratulations to Chris for winning the fight. You know it
31:54
Speaker 2: was a better fighter on the night. But I said,
31:57
Speaker 2: but make no mistake, I will be back and I
32:01
Speaker 2: will win a title. No matter what happens, I will
32:05
Speaker 2: be back. And I left it. And of course the
32:08
Speaker 2: crab an eye. Yeah, so you know what. So then
32:12
Speaker 2: we go on. Then we have on another six fights
32:14
Speaker 2: after that, and it's last, last, last, Now, if anybody
32:19
Speaker 2: knows what it's like in sport or when you give
32:23
Speaker 2: so much of yourself and and you'd lose. I mean,
32:28
Speaker 2: as a fifty something year old man, I sat in
32:31
Speaker 2: the changing rooms after a fight and I cried because
32:37
Speaker 2: it hurt so bad to lose. Yea, and okay, probably
32:44
Speaker 2: three of those seven fights I should have won, by
32:46
Speaker 2: the way, but fucking judges. But anyway, that.
32:52
Speaker 1: Just quickly, how old were you for your first fight?
32:57
Speaker 2: It was forty nine or fifty forty forty nine.
33:01
Speaker 1: Now, how many how many unofficial fights did you have
33:06
Speaker 1: in your life before the first sanctioned?
33:09
Speaker 2: About fucking heaps.
33:14
Speaker 1: I bet there weren't so many rules to comply with
33:17
Speaker 1: in the old days.
33:18
Speaker 2: No, there was other limbs and all sorts of things
33:20
Speaker 2: that could use. But how's this right? So that happened.
33:26
Speaker 2: And then, however, many fights later, I finally started to
33:31
Speaker 2: get some wins, and I got an opportunity to fight
33:34
Speaker 2: for a state title. And now I wanted this so bad.
33:39
Speaker 2: I believe it was my destiny, you know. And all
33:42
Speaker 2: this time I knew I was going to win a
33:43
Speaker 2: title someday. I didn't know how. I couldn't, Like, I
33:46
Speaker 2: just didn't know how it was going to happen, but
33:49
Speaker 2: I knew that I was going to do it. Anyway,
33:51
Speaker 2: this particular fight, I won the fucking state title right
33:58
Speaker 2: like I was fucking unbelievable trip. And anyway, I'm standing
34:02
Speaker 2: there at the end of the fight and they go yep,
34:04
Speaker 2: the winner, you know, the blue corner, and the hand
34:08
Speaker 2: goes up and I feel this belt just slapped around
34:12
Speaker 2: my waist. This fucking it was so such electric feeling,
34:17
Speaker 2: and get tied up around my waist and I look
34:19
Speaker 2: around and gets who presented me the belt.
34:24
Speaker 1: That beat you the first time?
34:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, chrissy him. That was electric right, like that was
34:31
Speaker 2: fucking unbelievable. It's like, you know, icking told you I
34:36
Speaker 2: was going to do this, you know, like ah, so
34:40
Speaker 2: that was great, and then laid down the track. We
34:44
Speaker 2: got approached by the WBO, which is a well boxing
34:47
Speaker 2: league and another fighter and they wanted to They're interested
34:50
Speaker 2: in getting me involved in a in an Asia Pacific
34:53
Speaker 2: title and we had to go and fight at a
34:55
Speaker 2: place called Nerandra, which is Country, New South Wales. It's
35:00
Speaker 2: about two hours or two and a half hours past
35:02
Speaker 2: Aubrey and and it said on the on the info
35:08
Speaker 2: for the fight said it was at the Henry Mathison Oval.
35:11
Speaker 2: And thought, oh, that's interesting. It must be pavilion or
35:13
Speaker 2: something there. So I rock up there the day before.
35:17
Speaker 2: The whole teams with me. We'll go and have a
35:19
Speaker 2: look at this venue. Well we go to this venue.
35:25
Speaker 2: Fuck me dead if I'm lying. They're setting a fucking
35:28
Speaker 2: ring up in the middle of the oval and it's
35:33
Speaker 2: going to be going to be held under the footy lights.
35:36
Speaker 2: I'm thinking I've come to Country, New South Wales. To
35:38
Speaker 2: have a fucking blue on the oval unbelievable. But it
35:43
Speaker 2: is one of the best experiences I've ever had. It
35:45
Speaker 2: was amazing night I won the Asia Pacific super Middleweight
35:50
Speaker 2: title WVL super Middleweight title. And when I won that
35:56
Speaker 2: fight and it was a unanimous decision, I got, you know,
36:00
Speaker 2: I've got the other guy on a standing eight count.
36:02
Speaker 2: I just did. I did so well. And as they
36:05
Speaker 2: raised my hand and they and and Gary Saint Clair
36:09
Speaker 2: came in and put the belt around my waist. I
36:13
Speaker 2: looked over the over the ropes and my son was
36:16
Speaker 2: standing in the crowd, and I don't and I know
36:20
Speaker 2: how much my son loves me and how proud of
36:21
Speaker 2: me he is, but I've never seen pride in his
36:24
Speaker 2: eyes more than what was there that day. I can't
36:31
Speaker 2: explain the feeling like my whole team was there, so
36:34
Speaker 2: my coaches and all the fight team were there. We
36:37
Speaker 2: went back to the motel room afterwards, and I mean,
36:42
Speaker 2: and I don't drink or anything, so I having me
36:44
Speaker 2: my soda waters and a big, big parmeshama and and
36:50
Speaker 2: we sat down and we laughed and joked and just
36:54
Speaker 2: lived the moment all night.
36:57
Speaker 1: That's amazing. That's amazing and in the present, like, could
37:02
Speaker 1: you in your wildest dreams, you know, when you looked
37:05
Speaker 1: at yourself in the mirror in that factory at thirty,
37:08
Speaker 1: your face was fucked up, you had no teeth. You know,
37:12
Speaker 1: you were at death's door, well heading towards the door.
37:17
Speaker 1: And to picture that you would be this highly trained, fit, strong,
37:24
Speaker 1: fucking athlete boxing in front of lots of people and
37:30
Speaker 1: winning titles. I mean what I love about that too
37:33
Speaker 1: is and I mean this with respect, like I think, well, one,
37:38
Speaker 1: your body was a bit fucked up from jumping off
37:40
Speaker 1: that bridge. That certainly didn't help the athletic career.
37:43
Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't help when you're a right hander
37:46
Speaker 2: and midway through you've got to You've got to relearn
37:49
Speaker 2: boxing left handed and only fight left handed.
37:54
Speaker 1: Why did that happen?
37:55
Speaker 2: Because I couldn't get the proper balance as an orthodox
37:58
Speaker 2: fider the stands, because the Rye league, I couldn't get
38:01
Speaker 2: the right balance. So I had to change stance and
38:04
Speaker 2: start fighting left handed. Wow. I'm now a way better
38:09
Speaker 2: fighter left handed than right.
38:11
Speaker 1: Wow. And I mean, what a credit to you mate
38:14
Speaker 1: that we spoke earlier about just dealing with hardship and
38:18
Speaker 1: resilience and figuring it out and solving problems. And you know,
38:22
Speaker 1: it's like, there are so many analogies with surviving prison
38:28
Speaker 1: and surviving whatever, navigating prison, coming out the other side,
38:33
Speaker 1: coming out the other side of addiction. I don't know
38:36
Speaker 1: if we want to call it that, but you know,
38:39
Speaker 1: a boxing career, building businesses, trying to figure yourself out,
38:45
Speaker 1: like my biggest projects, me your biggest pro That's literally
38:49
Speaker 1: why I called this show the You Project, Because irrespective
38:52
Speaker 1: of who I talk to, what we talk about, what
38:55
Speaker 1: they do for a job, where they live, everybody's biggest
38:59
Speaker 1: challenges them selves, right, Like I think, putting aside like
39:04
Speaker 1: the fundamentals of food and safety and security and a
39:08
Speaker 1: few bucks obviously that's paramount, but put that aside, I
39:13
Speaker 1: reckon the biggest challenge for humans is managing our mind.
39:17
Speaker 1: If you can't manage your mind, you're fucked.
39:19
Speaker 2: You're fucked.
39:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:21
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. When I talk about life, when someone says,
39:26
Speaker 2: you know, like, how's life, how's your life? To me,
39:32
Speaker 2: it's about how's my thinking? Yeah, that's where I live.
39:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, if you can, if you can sort that out,
39:42
Speaker 1: and even you think about at the other end of that,
39:45
Speaker 1: or the flip side of that is you see someone
39:47
Speaker 1: who's got and I'm speaking in general terms, but a
39:51
Speaker 1: good life in inverted commas, and by that living in
39:54
Speaker 1: a good joint, got a good car, got some dough.
39:57
Speaker 1: From the outside looking in in terms of society or
40:00
Speaker 1: norms or values, you go, wow, she's going great or
40:03
Speaker 1: he's going great. I mean, good job, they're in good shape.
40:06
Speaker 1: They're ticking all these boxes. But how many of those people?
40:10
Speaker 1: And not to say one equals the other, but definitely,
40:13
Speaker 1: having a good life in inverted commas wink wink doesn't
40:17
Speaker 1: necessarily equal happiness or calmness or joy or fulfillment or
40:25
Speaker 1: emotional or mental health. No, you know, because the like
40:30
Speaker 1: where life happens is out there, where living happens is
40:33
Speaker 1: in here. You know. It's that it's like an internal
40:36
Speaker 1: journey and we just happen to be navigating it in
40:40
Speaker 1: a three dimensional physical space where we're bumping into other
40:43
Speaker 1: Fuck we it's like us, you know, it's like it's
40:48
Speaker 1: so we are so focused on the external world, like
40:53
Speaker 1: all we're so worried about what people see, while so
40:57
Speaker 1: really addressing the stuff that people don't see. And that's
41:01
Speaker 1: for me. This is what this is, what these conversations
41:04
Speaker 1: are about, is addressing the stuff that people don't see
41:07
Speaker 1: so much. You know, is that internal you know, feelings, thoughts, ideas,
41:13
Speaker 1: you know, joy, paining, pleasure, fucking hope, emotional poverty, you know, isolation,
41:19
Speaker 1: self doubt, self loathing, self love, optimism. You know. It's like,
41:25
Speaker 1: if you can start to navigate and manage all of
41:28
Speaker 1: that that internal world that is you, then maybe your
41:33
Speaker 1: life experience on top of your life situation, but your
41:36
Speaker 1: life experience would be fucking awesome.
41:38
Speaker 2: Mate, fucking I still love an old mate of mind
41:42
Speaker 2: is passed on now that we used to coin the
41:44
Speaker 2: late great Jolly Knight Jack. Yeah, he used to say
41:48
Speaker 2: a mickey voice, is we travel first class on a
41:51
Speaker 2: second class ticket, mate, And I love that shit. He's right.
41:54
Speaker 2: I love always travel first class and a second class ticket.
41:58
Speaker 2: No problem with me as long as my things all right.
42:00
Speaker 2: And I'm a good mattitude of gratitude. Mate, I'm good.
42:07
Speaker 1: I'm sure you are well, mate. I always love talking
42:10
Speaker 1: to you. I love your insights, I love your wisdom,
42:12
Speaker 1: I love your real world experience. I love your fucking stories.
42:15
Speaker 1: Thanks for giving me a great story for the primo.
42:19
Speaker 1: If you could come up with another one for next time,
42:21
Speaker 1: that'd be beautiful. We appreciate you being on the You project,
42:25
Speaker 1: and keep doing what you're doing, and keep learning and
42:28
Speaker 1: growing and inspiring the rest of us. Mate, Thanks for
42:31
Speaker 1: your time, buddy.
42:32
Speaker 2: Join your Craig. Thanks mate,