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Cosmic Geography and the Veil · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: So, what is the geographical dominion of the Deuteronomy 32 worldview? We're going to get into that and a whole lot more on this episode of the Walk Talk. All right, brother, I'm super excited for this one, man. I tell ya, I got a lot. Pj Verdin: well, I'm I'm excited for you too, man. I know you've kinda hit me up and and you you were ready to get into this and I'm I'm gonna be honest. I'm I'm along for the ride, but I'm gonna be a student of the game. Randy: Hey, I I'm interested to hear what you have to say about what I've been learning from Michael Heisner. So I've been beating around the Michael Heisner Bush for months and months now. I've been listening to podcasts and other audiobooks that I think have a foundation in some of his works. And now I'm actually on to the man himself and I'm learning. directly from what he's written down and it's blowing my mind. Pj Verdin: Yeah, man. I I watched a little bit of his stuff and man, it's pretty interesting. Actually, I man, it it it kind of resurfaced some feelings about the book of Enoch and and some things that that sparked my curiosity that I'm like, man, maybe I d I don't know. And and and also man, it it it re it flipped the way I thought I understood the beginning. I'll say that. Randy: Yeah. So let's do this. I'm gonna play a short clip from a video where Michael Heiser talks about one of his books titled Demons. Okay. And then I want to just just to kind of introduce him and the topic so people could see who he is and kind of what he's about, and then we'll get into it. Sound good? Pj Verdin: Sounds good, brother. Let's get it. Randy: All right, I'm gonna share my screen. Obvious items that comes up when I talk about the Deuteronomy 32 worldview is what scholars typically refer to as cosmic geography. It creates a theology of when Yahweh then turns around right after Babel and calls Abraham and promises him a land. That sets up really the rest of the Old Testament, frantic rest of the Bible, because you have then Israel, God's people, the descendants of Abraham, occupying this land. You have that play out very obviously in the New Testament in Pauline vocabulary. Now, Paul does use the word demons occasionally, but most of the time he talks about the powers of darkness. It's with terms like principalities, powers, rulers, thrones, dominions, authorities. And what they have in common is their terms of geographical dominion. And so Paul is getting his theology from this Old Testament stuff. And they're different than demons, but again, they have a common enemy, they're they're evil, they're all you know part of the panoply the powers of darkness. But the whole notion of attachment to specific regions and places is Okay, so that was a little excerpt from the video. And if anyone goes on the YouTube and searches Michael Heiser demons, you could find the full video. It's 45 minutes long. That might be the beginning of your rabbit hole journey. but it's definitely worth watching. Now you watched the whole video, including the clip that we just saw there, which talks about the cosmic geology. What were your thoughts just in general, brother? Pj Verdin: Man, it was you know, I so I guess my my question would be ha have you been listening to this guy for a long time? Because I'll be honest with you, whenever he started talking, it reminded me of of some stuff that you were kinda saying, talking about this hierarchy. So th this Randy: Yes. Yes. Pj Verdin: is where you got that stuff from. Randy: So I did not get it directly from him, but from people who had been students of his. So Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: you know, videos that I've been watching, books that I've been reading, that they take a lot of his work. This guy is a is a biblical scholar. he's he's you know published several books and and also all sorts of peer review you know, articles. and he definitely deviates from a lot of the mainstream. Christian points of view when it Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: comes to angels and demons. So I've I've read people who have read him and have then gone on to write spin-off you know, works. But now I'm circling back to what did he actually have to say now that I've kind of got enough of a summary overview. Pj Verdin: Right, kind of going to the source. And and man, so so yeah, I I did recognize some of the like the points that I've heard you made make in the past, Randy: Mm-hmm. Right. Pj Verdin: and but the he does a good job of explaining it and and and adding context and and and I might be mistaken, but I th I thought it specifically said that like he was very like he he's almost specializes in in the old testament, right? Like he's very much like focused on Randy: Yeah, so he so he's an expert in like ancient, like Mesopotamian cultures. So Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: he not only understands the old testament in in all of the you know biblical scriptures in context, but he really has a firm grasp on the culture. So when you hear, you know, for example people say, Well, hey, the story of Noah's Ark that actually came from the epic of Gilgamesh or blah blah blah. Like he understands all these different cultures Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: where they overlap, where they're different, what they have in common, what came first. Like he understands this stuff in a lot more detail than the average Christian or even average, I would say, theologian. because he really specializes in understanding that culture in which the by the world of the Bible. existed and in in the context and culture in which the the the scriptures were written. Pj Verdin: Right. Well, like one of the things that kind of stuck out to me and made me think about something that I I believe it was Wes Huff I'd heard that said somebody asked him a question, like, you know, you know, as as time goes on, like, you know, meaning t today, we're getting so much further away, right, from the beginning of of when the Bible started. She's like, how much have we deviated from the original scripture? Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: And and and his answer was basically like, we're not. We're actually getting closer because we've had so many more discoveries of of of Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: you know, so many different scrolls and the things like that. He's like, so the translations today are actually getting closer than they were a few hundred years ago because we have so much more material. So Randy: Yeah, so yeah, go ahead. Pj Verdin: So no, I was just gonna say, like, whenever he was explaining this the the part about where it it it it literally says sons of God, right? Sons of God at at Randy: Right. Exactly. Pj Verdin: the Tower of Babel instead of like what what did they say? Israel, sons of Israel, like well Israel's not even a a nation yet. So it's like, Randy: So Pj Verdin: yeah, I I like those little things. Like I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Randy: So what do you so what you're talking about right now, the geographical dominion of Deuteronomy 32 32 or the Deuteronomy 32 worldview that Michael Heisner calls it is sort of the foundation of a lot of his work, to be honest with you. And it all started with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Because if you didn't have the Dead Sea Scrolls, what you had was you had these translations of Deuteronomy 32, which you just said. Which which talks about how God divided up the nations according to the sons of Israel, which makes absolutely no sense because Israel wasn't even a thing at the Tower of Babel. Right? So so he's basically saying, like, you know, Michael Heisner saying, look, we got this translation from the Dead Sea Scrolls that clarifies this and makes it make so much more sense. What it says is the sons of God, and it's the benai Elohim, the same language we see. In Genesis, in creation, when it says that, you know, that God, you know, created the world and and and the sons of God rejoice. And then we see it again in in Genesis six when it talks about the sons of God saw the daughters of men and they were beautiful and they took some for wives. It's that same terminology in in the in the in the Hebrew, something like that. I you know, I'm I'm not an expert in Hebrew, we're not pastors, we're not priests around here, but it's something like Benai Elohim. And when the Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: when the when the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed that that was actually, you know, the the language and the interpretation became sons of God instead of sons of Israel or or or you know children of Israel or whatever it was, it just you know it kind of opened up this whole spiritual you know realm. And so Michael Heisner has written one book. He's he's written a bunch of books, but one book that I I'm I'm listening to right now is called Unseen Realm. he's got another book called Reversing Herman, another book called Demons. I think he's got one called Angels. He's got a bunch of good books. I it's gonna take me years to probably get through all of them. Right now I'm working through Unseen Realm. And like I said, it's this interpretation, this this correct translation of Deuteronomy 32 that kind of kicks everything off. Pj Verdin: Okay. Yeah. So let me just I guess i if if we're that's I didn't even realize is is that was the actual starting line, but what it opened up was like a domino effect for me, right? So Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: so whenever whenever cause I to be honest with you, I never even thought about it contextually, like whether it says sons of gods or sons of Israel, I'm just like, okay, yeah, I know that's the thing. So I just my mind because of what I know now, right, just kind of breezes over it. So the the biggest the biggest like mind melt that I had. Kind of made me realize how often we do that. Because here's my thing, like we've talked about before. Even if you even if you're you're coming into Christianity and you've never read the Bible, you you know, you've never, whatever, like you you you don't you're not very knowledgeable, you're coming in with at least some knowledge, right? From the outside. Right, right, right. So you you you've heard Randy: Some assumptions, yeah. You you you've heard some things just being part of Western culture. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. So you've heard things. And and like I I I've I've said before, it was crazy because my in my mind, I thought that there was gonna be more of a story outlining what happened with Satan and how he got cast down and what that whole dynamic looked like. And and it was Randy: Mm-hmm. Right. Pj Verdin: mostly because I had I felt like, you know, even if a lot of people weren't talking about Jesus. Everybody knew a whole lot about the devil and his story. And I'm like, well, where are they getting that unless it's coming from the Bible? So what whenever Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: whenever he kind of dropped that bomb and was like, you know what? I don't think that the fall of of Satan and the third of his angels are are being cast down happened pre the fall. I was like, wait a minute, what? Sorry, I got that was my favorite part. Okay. Randy: Okay. Yeah. So you're getting a little bit ahead here, but let me, but let me let me s let me set the let me set the stage a little bit. So so what Michael Heiser says, he says that he actually sees three separate rebellions. Okay. And and this I trust this dude honestly, not just because of his credentials, but because it just God, it just makes so much sense to me when I hear him lay it out. But he says three separate rebellions happen. And you have the rebellion of Satan, right? Whatever we've talked about him before, whatever his actual name is, right? We know his name is not Satan, right? He's the adversary, right? Which is not a proper name, it's it's a description. So we have his rebellion, and this happened, and it led to you know the incident in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve, you know, basically fell, right? And we were kicked out of Eden. He he joins Pj Verdin: Let me Right. Randy: those two. So so on the spiritual side. You got this pride welling up in in the devil. You got, you know, his, you know, rebellion against God in his heart, which leads to the fall of man. That's the first rebellion that he talks about. Okay. Pj Verdin: And and let me just say t this to that point that you just made. Like it what what I liked also was again, prior to this, I would have if if you said who's Elohima, I would have like, that's just God. That's just God, not a not a more of like a collective, right? Whereas like in the same way and Okay. Randy: Well let's come back to that. Let's come back to that because let's talk about the rebellions first and let's come back to Elohim. Pj Verdin: Well well no, I was just I was just using that because like I see the duality, right? Where whenever we say Satan or the devil, it's not a singular person, it's more of a collective or an like a a descriptive, not a not a name. So you see that duality that right, right, right. A hundred percent. Right, right. Right, right, right, right. Randy: Sure, sure. But there was a being. There was a being whose name remains unknown, you know, the name that shall not be uttered, right? But it but we don't know for sure if it's always referring. It's usually we we know for a fact it doesn't always refer to just the devil, right? Pj Verdin: Correct. Correct. Randy: the second rebellion, the second rebellion was the Genesis six rebellion, the watchers who, you know, stepped out of heaven to basically marry women, they had the Nephilim. Right? Their their offspring, the giants. That was the second rebellion. So, what happened in the second rebellion? Well, you got these spiritual beings, the watchers, whatever they were doing, who basically came and through their sin, they took the fall of man a step further. So, through their sin, they essentially, you know, they established, if you believe the book of Enoch, you know, they gave mankind all sorts of forbidden knowledge they didn't they shouldn't have had. they taught them how to make weapons out of metal. All sorts of things happened. They, you know, they they created this whole race of mixed bloodlines that that was never intended to exist, you know, half human, half some sort of spiritual being. So God, you know, created the flood to judge them and and wipe them out. Then, according to Michael Heiser, the third rebellion was the rebellion of Babel. And this one is where God, you know, he Confuse the languages, right? He he he knocks down the tower, he confuses the languages, people are dispersed across the earth. And on the spiritual side, what's happening there is now we have some sort of at least this is my understanding of it. We have a step further in man's fall, where now we have this spiritual kingdom being established that is anti kingdom of God. We got this this this kingdom of Babylon. That we're then gonna see throughout the rest of history, which is like the antithesis of the the kingdom of God and what Jerusalem represents as Jerusalem and Babylon, right? And so that third fall, you know, is basically we're building this this this evil empire, we're building this demonic kingdom, and that's what's happened on the spiritual side and and in humanity. Basically, that sets up the system of this world in a way that it didn't exist before. And so those are what Michael Heisner describes as essentially the three rebellions. Thoughts so far? Pj Verdin: It it's just it's a lot, man. It's it's it really is. It's it's kind Randy: It is. But Pj Verdin: of crazy. But but you do see so what I always look for whenever I hear new stuff like this is I look and I guess that's why a little while ago I brought up like the the the idea of like Satan being a collective, Elohim being a collective. Like I look for consistencies in the things that I do know of the Bible. So whenever somebody's introducing a new thought and I'm like, wait a minute, you know what? That that kind of fits the the flow that I see because God is the same. you know, yesterday, today and tomorrow. He he's he he's his character is is pretty evident and he's really consistent. and so I'm like, okay, well, these the these things do kind of seem to like play off of each other, feed off of each other, and have this duality that like seems pretty you know, pretty constant on on both sides. And so th those things are intriguing. But yeah, it's it's a lot, man, because it's like this dude is is is an expert and it's like man, it's it's it's like feeling like you okay, this is the old testament. This is stuff that I've heard, but it's this is all brand new to me. I'm like, holy crap, like you just blew the lid off of everything that I thought that I understood. And and now I'm just like I'm sitting here like, man, like well okay, well if that if if it's like that, then what's the next part? And I mean he just keeps going and going and going. And I'm like, man, there's I mean, like you said, I I feel like I just having him like explain everything to you, man, it would take A long a long time because it's just man, it's it's it's so many different layers to it. Randy: Yeah, exactly. So so okay, so then in the the whole Tower of Babel situation. So at this point, you know, God divides up the languages, He divides up the nations of the world. And essentially, you know, he says, Look, Jerusal Israel, I'm gonna keep for myself, right? He's dividing everyone up, and he appoints essentially Elohim. So this is where we go back to the Elohim, right? He appoints Elohim. Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: Over the rest of the nations. He's I'm gonna keep Israel for myself. I got the special plan that I'm gonna work for, you know, the whole, you know, whole history of humanity is gonna be it's gonna play out through this one nation that I'm gonna keep for myself, but I'm gonna put other Elohim in charge over the rest. And that's where we see it's tied to the Genesis 11 story of the Tower of Babel, but it doesn't show up. We don't actually see this until that Deuteronomy 32. So this is where you were alluding to earlier where A lot of people think Elohim means one thing, but we find out it actually means something else. Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: So do you wanna w give your thoughts on that, right? Pj Verdin: No, I mean I I've r I I've already kinda I you know, I just thought that that was one of God's many names was was just Elohim. I thought that that meant him in the same way everybody thinks that Satan means the devil or or the devil means the devil. It's it's a specific person and not like a a description of a type of person kind of thing. Randy: And Michael Heisner points out that sometimes when we see this dialogue between Elohim, Christians are tempted to say this is dialogue between the Trinity, which wouldn't make any sense because if you have three co equal parts of God who are all all knowing, what kind of conversation would they need to have actually? They really don't need to have any kind of audible conversation. That it's actually conversation between God and gods. And in our Bibles, we're typically used to seeing God with a capital G, which we know is, you know. the almighty, all powerful Yahweh, right? And then we're used to seeing gods with a lowercase G, which mean something else, right? And Pj Verdin: Yeah. Right, right. Randy: so go ahead. Pj Verdin: No, no, no. I th that's that's what how I follow it, at least, yep. Well, it Randy: Yeah, exactly. Pj Verdin: and well, I guess I I would say this because I've seen recently somebody was arguing to the fact that whenever in in in the beginning, you know, whenever God said, Let us make man in our image, that he was talking to angels, and they're like, Well, no, that doesn't, you know what I mean, that doesn't check out. Like he's not he he's not basically a asking like the angels' permission, like, hey Should we make man in our image or whatever? So it it makes sense that like a lot of that stuff it does kind of go over people's heads in context of who's talking to who. Randy: Well, and that's a good that's a good example because that's where traditionally what I've always been taught was this is like the first time we see the Trinity show up, that this is God talking to himself. But what Michael Heisner would say is it's not. It's God talking to the other Elohim. And you may have heard if you if you're big into like ancient aliens, for example, you've people like Zachariah Sitchin who want to push like this ancient astronaut theory and say that like we were all Know created by Anunnaki or what have you, they would say, Look, this is this is proof of it. This is like a bunch of like superior beings, superior, you know, alien beings who are created in humanity, and this is like proof of it. This is not the trinity, Christians say it's the Trinity. What Michael Heisner says is no, it's not some alien beings, but it's also not the trinity. What it is, is it's God talking to his divine counsel and basically telling them, here's what we're gonna do. And his analogy that he uses is. He uses the analogy of it's no different than if I was gonna order pizza for the family and I say, Hey kids, I think we're gonna order pizza tonight. Like I'm the one who's actually ordered it. I'm the one who's actually gonna pay for it. I'm the one who's gonna receive the pizza, but I'm gonna say, Hey, let's order pizza tonight. You guys wanna order pizza? We are gonna order pizza. And his his his response is that's what is happening here, where God said, Let us make man in our image. Thoughts about that? That's crazy. I know it's different than what I've learned before. Pj Verdin: Hm. My my th Well Randy: So what do you think? Pj Verdin: my thoughts on on that this specific part of in Genesis I think w one, you know what I mean, or Genesis two or whatever it is in in in the very beginning, you know, I I I still feel like that is basically the the the Trinity. You know what I mean? I I and and I think I I I think 'cause there's not a conversation, right? It's it's basically like It's i I always thought about it like this. Like I don't I don't think about God just being like, you know, let let's let's make man in our image like in the way that we w the way that that sounds, right? So to me I'm just like I think that he was just like, you know what? Kind of thinking like, hey, I'm I'm about to do this, but I mean I I think it was a specific reason why he it's it's mentioned like that because he wanted us as readers to know that That we were made in the image of God. But I I would say this to this Michael guy's point, like, okay, if if if if if this was God, Yahweh talking to his his counsel, is is this saying that the council is also made in the image of God? Because he's saying, Let us make man in our image, likeness, like our collectively, ours. So that's why for me Randy: Mm-hmm. That's yeah. Pj Verdin: I think it's Trinity, right? And And and not not a council because I think that in the same way that there's a difference between ourselves and the angels, like to say, you know what I mean? Like that that was like my my thing and and and the argument that I've heard whenever people are like, well, no, he's talking to his angels who are just hanging out. They're they're there with them. He's talking to them, like, hey, let's let's make man in our image. And they're like, Well, no, because we're not made in the image of angels, we're made in the image of God kind of thing. Randy: So I haven't I haven't read I haven't finished reading the book yet, but here's my here's where I think he's going. And I and I could be totally wrong. But if Michael Piser was sitting here with us today, he talks a lot about God's family, right? The family of God. That's why you use he uses the terms the sons of God, the Benai Elohim. it's it's God's family. So he already had this family of spiritual beings, then he creates humanity. And says they're going to be part of our family as well. So I I don't know what his answer would be to that question, brother. But my my assumption would be that it's probably yes, but different. Are the sons of God, the spiritual beings, the other Elohim, created in the image of God? I would say probably so, but in a different way than humans are, if that makes any sense. Pj Verdin: Huh. Randy: Because and the reason why I I I think that would be the answer. Is because they are also part of the family. If and we're all part of the family, we're all gonna reflect the father, right? the in different ways. Pj Verdin: Well well and what this is what this is bringing to mind now is you know John 316 and and how I I I I do believe that the most accurate translation of that does include the word begotten, right? Which is a direct tie towards Jesus and God the Father. Right. So cause other than that, like you said, I'm a son of God, you're a son of God. These councils were sons of God, but not be begotten. Not, you know, i basically directly from kind of like an outside, like adopted like we would be adopted sons of God. Jesus was a a biological son of God kind of thing. Randy: Exactly. So so this is a big point of contention that he brings up. And I and I'm not very far into his books, but I've already got to this point where he does talk about that. He says that look, that's gonna be one of the things that people bring up the most. They're gonna they're gonna have concerns when when we see that this divine counsel in Deuteronomy 32 is sons of God, right? How does that differ from the son of God? Right? Or but but then you could also say, well, how does that differ from The New Testament saints who are called sons of God, right? and and and you're you're on to something there. It's it's the fact that, you know, Jesus is not just a son of God, in the same way that God is not just an Elohim. And what Michael Heisner says is God is an Elohim, but he is a different class of Elohim. In other words, and here's the way I kind of think of it. I think of it as if you just replace the word Elohim with spirit. It makes a lot more sense because essentially what it's saying is when the Bible is talking about Elohim, it's talking about a spirit realm and spirit beings. Okay. And and nobody would argue that there is a spirit realm and spirit beings. So to say that this council or Elohim is not to say that they're any way, shape, or form equal with God. No, He God is the Elohim above all hell Elohim, right? He is a whole different category. He is a spiritual being that is supremely different. And over every other spiritual being, just like Jesus as a physical being is not just another man, right? He's the son of man, but not just another man. He is supremely different and superior to every other man. And it's the same way in the spiritual realm with these Elohim. And I think people could get caught up on that term because they hear that word that they're used to associating with God. And they think, okay, are we saying there's multiple gods? Are there more than are we believing in polytheism now? And and Michael Heiser is very clear. He's No, we're not talking about. Polytheism, this is a being that is categorically different than the other spiritual beings. But the Hebrew word that is used is basically referring to a spirit in the same way. you know, Jesus is Son of Man, but he's different. So back to the question: does that mean he's like these other sons of God? No, he's the only one begotten of the Father. He is. God made flesh. He is the creator of all things. Like the Bible makes that very clear. And that's very different than these other sons of God. Pj Verdin: Yeah, and and you know, you you kinda you kinda see this across across other beliefs, right? Where, you know, like Greeks believe in Zeus and all these other gods, but like there's one that's sits Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: in you know there's still a hierarchy as far as the gods are concerned and there's you know, roles and and their their divisions and and and dominions. And so like even so within the the characteristics of God, I I see, you know, some similarities there from what this guy was saying. from the outside looking in, you know, like we've we've explained before, how anything that God creates, Satan counterfeits. So even in other religions where they're inserting just different gods, lowercase Gs, like you see you see this kind of feeding off of off of somewhere. You know what I mean? So it's like there there could very well be truth to that kind of structural, you know, structure of of of hierarchies and and and and governing God's Lord K G's, you know what I mean? So I I don't know, man. It was interesting interesting stuff. Randy: Well, and and so you were asking me earlier, you know, had I been listening to this guy or reading this guy for a while. And I said no, I you know, but I've been circling around him quite a bit, just you know, following the bunny trail of different ideas. And this is where I talked about in the past when we were talking about the kingdom of God and what does the kingdom of God actually mean? What Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: is the kingdom of God? Is it just this future heavenly place where we're gonna be with God in his presence? Is it now? Is it both? You know, what is that? And And basically, this is where I first started bringing up this topic of look, God's kingdom, it goes back to the beginning. He set up this kingdom. And I'll just read in Deuteronomy 32. It starts in it says in verse seven Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations, ask your father, and he will show you your elders, and they will tell you. Verse 8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples. According to the numbers of the sons of God, and that is esv. If you read other translations, it says sons of Israel. And it's funny because the little footnote here in the ESV says, Compare Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, Masoretic text, Sons of Israel. And then if you're reading the other translations like NIV, it'll say compare to the Dead Sea Scrolls, Sons, Sons of God, right? And then it Pj Verdin: Right, right. Randy: says, But the Lord, verse 9, but the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob. His allotted heritage. He found him in a desert land, in a howling waste of wilderness. He encircled him, he cared for him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. So it's like right there. Now notice this is Deuteronomy, right? So this is Moses. You know, he's writing Deuteronomy, the second telling of the law, right? And he's and he's basically telling us, like, hey, you remember that story we talked about earlier? Remember that story I told you about Babel when God divided up the nations? Well, here's what I didn't, you know, mention earlier. Right, but when he divided up the nations, he actually divided them up amongst the sons of God, and so and so then we learn in Psalms 82 more about the sons of God it's referring to in this divine council. And this is where Michael Heiser makes the connection is to Psalms 82, where it says, God has taken his place in the in the divine council, in the midst of the gods, lowercase g, he up he holds judgment. How long will you judge unjustly? And show partiality to the wicked. Give justice to the weak and the fatherless. Maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy. Deliver them from the hand of the wicked. They have neither knowledge nor understanding. They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. And this is what Jesus quotes. When they accuse Jesus of blasphemy, he quotes the next verse: I said, You are God's, sons of the most high, all of you. Nevertheless, Like men you shall die and fall like any prince. Arise, O God, Jesus, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations. What is that talking about? It's talking about again going back to Deuteronomy 32. God divides the earth according to these sons of God, according to these spiritual rulers, but they fall short, they seek out their own worship, they seek out their own glory instead of God's glory. They lead the nations astray, they judge unpartially. So God says, look, I'm going to take them all back. I kept Jacob for me. I kept Israel for me. But I'm going to redeem all of them. And I'm going to rise up and judge you, right? You're going to all die just like normal mortal men would die. You were meant to be eternal beings, Elohim, spiritual beings that live forever and ruled with my delegation and my authority, but you didn't do it. You fell short. You became corrupt. So I'm going to claim reclaim all of it. That's what he's saying right here. Pj Verdin: And and and I think didn't he bring up that point and and and was talking about, you know, the finished work of Jesus and he was like, Okay, well who is he inheriting these kingdoms from then? You know what I mean? So Randy: Exactly. Exactly. Who has he inherited these kingdoms from? He's inherited them from those beings, from those Beni Pj Verdin: So you Right, so Randy: Elohim. Pj Verdin: So I was like, Man, that's I was like, you know, be but that's the thing, like you you hear the the thing like Jesus and you're like, heck yeah, he did it all, but you don't stop to think like, okay, wait, why are they using this kind of the why is it phrased like this? You know what I mean? Why isn't why isn't it just like, you know what, Jesus saved the world so so it belongs to him. No, the the the verbiage there is he inherits this from you're like, wait a minute. And I know it if you're inheriting something you're getting it from somebody who had it before you. So it's like, who was that? So yeah, I I did think that that was interesting. And and and you know, you brought up a you brought up something that made me think about conversations that I've had I've h I've heard, excuse me, that people have had just I mean, whenever it comes to the idea of the Ten Commandments themselves, right? So I think it's like what I believe the very first commandment is you shall have No other gods before me. And so people have said people are are are are are saying like that that's God's giving a commandment, basically showing you like, you know, they've used it for the argument to say God's not the only God, right? Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: Well, he is, but he he's the only capital G God, right? Or the true capital G God, depending on how people look at it, but not the only God. And and and I think that he there's several points where he kind of makes He kind of uses that kind of wording to make it clear that he's even saying, like, hey, look, you know, cause cause to me, just in that one commandment, you shall have no other gods before me, right? Well, if there's no other gods, then he it's I Randy: Bingo. Pj Verdin: I I I think like like isn't this guy the one who said he's like he's not commanding us to do things that we can't do? You know what I mean? So right, right, right. Randy: Right, right. He's not commanded us not to fly because we can't fly, but he does command us not to you know, practice witchcraft, necromancy, you know, fortune telling, all things that we see in the Bible show up, right? And just like it says don't have any other gods, well, there are other gods. They are lowercase g gods, they are spiritual beings. We call them Elohim, and we know they exist. and and one thing that I love about what what his work is revealing to me personally, man, is that The whole Christian world has flattened, it's totally flattened the spiritual realm into it's all angels are just demons. It's that's it. It's just angels Pj Verdin: Right. And Randy: and are just demons. And and we ignore all the different descriptions of Seraphim and cheraphim and principalities and powers and rulers and all these different things. And we just say, angels and demons. What about the Nephilim? I don't know. That was in the book of Enoch. We don't, we don't care. It's like, no, man, there is this whole Petra of spiritual beings, some good, some bad, all which were good at some point, a lot of which have turned bad, and they all have different roles. They all have different levels of authority and and had different purposes. And God created them with different intentions in mind. They had different places in the family of God originally. And Michael Heiser, in his work, he's really like revealing that just using the Bible and just his understanding of the of the the ancient. you know, Mesopotamian culture. And one thing he says is, look, you know, in our modern day scientific age in 2026, we we're we're kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum, right? Like we are like in this world where we try to flatten it so much that we almost don't believe in nothing. Like we're we want to believe in the bare minimum. There's God, there's devil, there's angels, there are demons. And then like in our day-to-day lives, if you hear somebody talk about well, God told me this or an angel revealed that, we're kind of like thinking in our head, like, yeah, is there another explanation? But in their culture, in in in the time that the Bible was written, this stuff was totally real to them, man. They believed in things like gin and they believed in all these different spiritual beings. And it was 1000% real and understood. And we've over the centuries have flattened that and simplified it so much that we lose a lot of the c the color and and the real story Pj Verdin: Well, Randy: about what's going on. Pj Verdin: a hundred percent. And I just wanted to clarify, you know, so whenever I'm sitting here telling you that God specifically instructs us, do not have any other gods before me. I d I don't I I I want to be clear. He's not talking about demons, right? Because Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: I know most people are like, man, like, you know, Baal was probably a demonic spirit, or this was an idol, and it there's demon like these are all different things. So I'm not talking whenever whenever it says God. Whenever the the commandment says, you know, put no other gods before me, I think that God meant exactly what he said. He wasn't, he's like, No, not what you call a demon. I'm not saying, you know, don't think it's a god and put it before me. He's like, no, there are little gods who I've you know, I they're they're they're all they all come from me anyways, as well. Don't put them b before me thinking that they're they are something. But but you're right, you know, the crazy thing is this. Randy: Yeah. N don't put those other seventy rulers of the other nations in the place of Yahweh, the the the Lord of of Israel, is what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Right. underst yeah. Understand who put them in their their positions, right? Me. So but but I mean j just to kinda your point, like you said, man, we I mean the there's a whole industry of and a whole pop culture of of horror films that will will spend, you know, an hour and a half, two hours have you glued to your seat about one person, you know, being demon possessed and you read You know, the Bible and they they glance over it in a few sentences, this person was possessed, Jesus cast it out, and then the kid could move and then you're like, How is it that like because to them they're like, Man, people people have demons all the time. And look, you know what I mean? Sometimes we can get them out of them, sometimes we can't, you know, depends Randy: Mm-hmm. Right. Pj Verdin: on who blah blah blah. You know, like one one dude was like, man, my kid's been having demons in them since he was little. It's always trying to throw them in the fire or do whatever, you know. Like and and it's wild how, yeah, just how nonchalantly. they they throw those things out like, yeah, that person had a demon in them. You know, Mary Magdalene. yeah, she had seven demons in her. You know, it's like, but it's not a focal point because it's like it's not a big deal to them like we make it today. It's like, wow, that's a you know what a what a spectacle, right? Because because otherwise Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: we a lot of times I believe we we explain we explain it away. We d because, you know, so many people ignore the spirituality that's all around them. So they they try to Use logic to explain it away. Randy: 1000%, my brother. One thousand percent. And let me just say this: this is why I've been intentional in the past, because we've not deep dove this before, but this is why I've been intentional in the past about saying demonic versus demons, right? Because, like you just said, like it it it's God is saying, take no have no other gods before me. He's still in Israel, like hey, of the 70 nations, which it tells us I think it's like Genesis 11. after you know, Noah's flood, Shem, Ham, Japheth, they spread out across the world. There were 70 nations. Logical to think 70 or 72, depending Pj Verdin: Or or seventy seven, I think, right? And there's some or Randy: on how you count them. It's like 70 or 72. And and so the the logical thought is there's probably around 72 of these sons of God that are ruling over these nations, and God's saying, Look, I'm yours. I'm keeping you in my bosom as the apple of my eye. You don't go and start worshiping any of these other beings. I It's me. I'm the only one that's worthy of worship. Right. And so it's not talking about just worshiping demons. And so what Michael Heisner would say, and this is where like we've talked about like Timothy Alberino in the past and and you know what he has to say, and he's he's learned a lot from Michael Heisner as well, is you know, what I learned from Timothy Alberino is the fact that, you know, what we would call the demons are not actually fallen angels. And and that comes directly from the research and the study. Of Heisner, which is that basically we've been thinking for thousands of years that demons are just fallen angels, but they're actually not. Demons as we know them that possess people that are looking for bodies are not spiritual beings that never had a body. They are the spirits of the Nephilim, which had a body. Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: When the angels and the women created the Nephilim, they had this being that had a body. And God basically says, like, you know, He locked up some of them, and some of them He said they're gonna wander the earth. And those are the ones who are possessing people, those are the ones who Jesus cast out. And it says, unclean spirits. If you actually look at the what the Bible actually says, it says it calls them unclean spirits. But second temple Judaism understood those unclean spirits to be the wandering spirits of the Nephilim, not angels who fell and rebelled and became demons. And that Pj Verdin: Well Randy: goes back to what you were saying at the very beginning. Pj Verdin: yeah. Randy: About the third of the angels. Pj Verdin: I was about to say, yeah. So I mean, if you know it's it's pretty explicit the New Testament is old covenant, but the New Testament, when Jesus is walking around in his mis ministry casting out demons, right? People are possessed by these demons or these unclean spirits, whatever. I I'm not even sure what the what the Greek or the Aramaic on those might be, but I'm just saying we know that Jesus is doing it. So obviously this fits the narrative that that Everybody believes like, yeah, well, it was the the devil or Satan or whoever whatever the the specific person is the one who convinced Eve to eat this apple. We all have this narrative and we just never think about it. And and to be honest with you, whenever he brought up what is it, Revelation twelve, is it? I think. So Randy: Yep. Revelation is twelve. Pj Verdin: so whenever he brings that up, I was like, wait a minute, because I know and I've heard like people say like there's three different like revelation is not just like continuous, just like the whole Bible. We know it's not like in in in an an actual chronological order, right? And so he's like, Man, Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: you're basically getting three different versions of a story, like, and and so you have to kind of be able to separate it. so I I was just watching some stuff on this. But anyways, w what is what is I mean, if you're reading this this this one chapter, you know, in its context, in its entirety, this is not like From my understanding, there was certain chapters, like so these chapters are telling a story, these chapters are telling a story, these chapters are telling the story. But there there's continuity in in those different stories. Well, in Revelations twelve, like this guy says, he's like, Man, whenever it's talking about a third of the angels, you know, falling with Lucifer, it it it's it it's as a result of of the Messiah being born, right? So I'm like, Whoa, Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: wait a minute, that's That's crazy, right? So so I'm like, okay, well if if that if if that was what happened then then who who were these who were these other people before? You know what I mean? Like who who were these other demons or whatever but before? Like that's that's crazy. Randy: Yeah, so yeah, so most people have been taught, myself included, that at some point at before the Garden of Eden, Satan rebelled against God and took a third of the the angels with them and they all became demons. Right? Is that what you were taught? And and what Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Right, yeah. That's well and that's yeah, a hundred percent. Randy: we actually learn, and look, Revelations, it's a mis mystery book. We don't we we don't know a lot about what's going on. It seems like a lot of things are happening. In the heavenly realms and the spiritual world. And it's hard to match what's happening in the spirit world with with what's happening in the in the physical world at the same time. But there is kind of this peeling back of the veil. So you're seeing things happen from both sides. And and and if you actually understand what's happening in Genesis 12, which is where people get that idea from that a third of the angels fell with Satan, it's it's what happened when Satan finally gets kicked out of heaven. Which is not until Jesus Pj Verdin: Cross. Yeah. Randy: beats him on the cross. That's when until then, until then, Satan, as I'm assuming he's one of the sons of God, he shows up with them a lot, the Beni Elohim, he shows up with them when God calls his council together and they start talking about Job, who shows up in the mist? The adversary, the Satan shows up and and he's like, I've been wandering to and fro. So we know he's still got access to the throne room room of God until until when? Until Pj Verdin: Well, and see, no, that that brings up man, like it and it's just this is like me reliving like not too long ago, whenever I started reading the Bible in chronological order. So you you're in Genesis and you jump to Job, Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: and I'm like, What? This must have been before he got cast. Yeah, I'm Randy: What's going on? Yeah. Pj Verdin: like, I'm like, if he like if he's already cast out, then how has he got access to God? He comes and he's like, look Job, that's because he has everything. I'm like How does he have that kind of access? And and so my mind automatically think I'm reading this in chronological order, was like, Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: he probably tests Job and then God was like, then he was, you know, whatever. And then he gets kicked out. But no, it makes sense. Like you said, like this guy's explained, like, access till Randy: Yeah. He's he he has access and he is accusing. He's accusing the people of God. He's accusing people who worship God throughout all of history. He's going into the heavenly realm and he's accusing us in front of God until until Jesus kicks him out completely. Right. And we talked about previously how if, you know, when we were talking about the revelation of method, if they would have knew what was happening, they would have never crucified the Lord, Lord of Glory. But then they did it. And Jesus, you know, he he he he wins his victory. And now there's a battle. And then and then Michael kicks him out of heaven and he takes a third of the angels with him. This all happened after Jesus, Jesus' victory on the cross. Pj Verdin: Well, it yeah, and so it's wild. So here here's two thoughts that I have. So for one, it it Randy: Okay. What do you got? Pj Verdin: it it does add context to me for the verse where it says that Jesus saw Satan fall to heaven like a bolt of lightning or something. I'm like, whoa, that's Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: you know what I mean? But but whenever the first time I or you know, I guess my my initial thoughts towards hearing that were like, Well, that make that checks out because Jesus has been around since the beginning because he was God also, you know what I mean, and he's part of the Trinity. But like in this context Randy: But where, but where and when does Jesus say that? Pj Verdin: Right, exactly. Which it it makes even more sense is what I'm getting at. I mean before I'm just like, Okay, well yeah, Jesus is eternal, so you know what I mean? But then the it does make more sense here. But man, the other thing that it brings up for me is, you know, Jesus Randy: So just for anyone listening though, do you do you remember when he says it? Pj Verdin: I don't, man. Randy: So it's in it's in Luke ten verses eighteen. So it says that after the seventy or seventy-two disciples that Jesus sent out to sp to spread the good news to all the nations, you know, those nations that we're gonna start to reclaim. That's when he starts to talk about it. And he says, I saw Satan fall like lightning. In other words, like he's talking about what happened in Revelation twelve. Jesus is talking about Revelation 12 in Luke chapter 10. So what does that tell us? That tells us that some of Revelation is peeling back a curtain to tell us, hey, you heard the gospel story, right? You read the gospel, you read Acts two. There's some things that are happening. Like, like you know, God started with saying, Hey, you know, you know that third, that third rebellion where I had to change everybody's languages. Well, let's just start by reversing the third one, then we'll reverse the second one, then we'll reverse the first one. Let's start by reversing all these curses, right? So now I'm gonna start by giving you the ability to go speak to these other languages these other these languages of these other nations so we can start telling them that, hey, your your your princes, your rulers, your gods, your Elohim, they've been they've lost all their authority. So we could start spreading the good news to them, right? And when this is happening, Revelation is pulling back the curtain and saying, Look, when Jesus did all this stuff, guess what happened behind the scenes? It's like a movie, it's like flipping over. Satan, he got kicked out. And God's like, hey, you don't get access no more, bud. An angel in Michael grabs him and throws him down to the earth and says, Hey, watch out, earth, because he's coming down to you. And so we're getting like a little glimpse. Jesus is talking about what's happening in Revelations 12. Pj Verdin: Well, a and so w the other thought that I had was okay, whenever whenever Jesus is in the wilderness being tempted by the devil. Now, you don't w a and and I mean I guess it it's it's kind of like similar to you you think about you think about Job, like you you know that obviously the devil had access to the throne room of God and and and and he was doing things to Job. I don't know if it was if it was in in in such a physical manifested way as it is with Jesus where it seems like basically like they're you know face to face having these these you know conversations. but man yeah it's just it's just kind of interesting like to to think like you know I know that basically you know in Job it tells us like Satan goes and he's like hey look let me tempt him and God's like okay go don't don't kill him but yeah you can do you can do your thing and then I mean he goes back and reports to God like So just imagine just just for a second, like, you know, freaking the devil gets owned in the wilderness by the son of God and and he has to go back and say, Yeah, he didn't he didn't go for that God. I think he's I think he's the real one. Like he I I tried, you know I mean? Like it's wild. It's wild. Randy: Yeah. So, so, so we're gonna have to do a follow-up because I know we are you know, we're getting close to the end of our time here, but we're gonna have to do a follow-up where we we're gonna get into revelations because I'll be honest, this whole conversation has got me looking at revelations completely different. Not that I'm an expert in revelations, I would never claim to be, but I've always kind of read it a certain way before, you know, reading the left behind books, hearing all the different theories of, you know, the end times and whatnot. I've always read it a certain way. But my gosh, man, like things are looking so different. So I want to share let's just let's just read this together because I want to share Revelations 12 and just come back to that that that you know pulling back of the curtain that I believe that Jesus was actually doing here. So let me let me pull this up and then I'll read it. Pj Verdin: And you know it's crazy, he brought it up, but like this is this is what kinda got me. Remember I told you I like I I I was listening. I cause I I started doing some research in and Revelation just because I'm like, man, how this story about a woman having a baby and then this thing trying to attack like I was like and I didn't realize that it was this, but this is what made me 'cause I I I saw like the similarities with the story of of Jesus, but I I was like, but I thought that Revelation was all about stuff that is going to be coming, you know what I mean? So it's like no, it it's yeah. Randy: no, no. And I want to deep dive that even more next time. But I I think I think honestly, I think that have you ever watched that movie Memento? Pj Verdin: No. Randy: So great movie. It's got Guy Pierce in it. I highly, highly recommend it. It's one of Nolan, what's it Christopher Nolan's one of his first movies? And you know Christopher Nolan's a genius, right? And he loves to mess with time, right? But in the movie, the movie actually like starts with the climax and you don't know it till the end because it's got all the color scenes that are told forward, and then in between it's got black and white scenes that are basically told in reverse. Or I think I said that backwards. The color scenes. Are told in reverse, and the and the black and white scenes are telling the story forward, and then they meet at the end, and everything makes sense. And then you realize that the beginning was actually the climax. It's a crazy movie, it's mind blowing. It's one of those movies you got to watch multiple times to fully understand what's happening, but it's it's a good movie. recommend watching it. There's some element of that happening. You've already alluded to it. If you read the Bible just cover to cover, you're reading it completely out of order. We already know that. A lot of things aren't gonna make a lot of sense. And Revelations is similar, in my opinion. There are some things like this, like Romans, like like Revelations 12, that's peeling back the curtain of something that happened in in in in Matthew. And we're seeing from the spiritual side what was happening. So what we see in in Revelations 12, a great sign appeared in heaven. Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and her head on her head was a crown of 12 stars. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees unanimously. This is talking about Israel. She is pregnant. She is crying out in birth pains, in agony, giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven. Behold a great red dragon, the devil with seven horns, ten horns. Maybe it's Rome. I don't know. But essentially, what we're saying is like they're saying that Rome, slash, the devil, slash the powers of this world is like against Israel. He swept down a third of the stars of heaven, cast them down the earth. That's your angels falling. That people try to ascribe to, you know, before. Before Eden, right? and the dragon stood before the woman, was who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child, she might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. Everyone agrees this is Jesus. But her child was caught up to God and to his throne. When? After the resurrection. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she was, has a place prepared by God in which she is going to be nurtured, right? For whatever days, 12, 60 days. Now there's this war in heaven, right? Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated. There was no longer any place for them in heaven. So up to this point, we got Satan. He still got access to heaven. He still got access to accuse. But now there's not going to be no more accusations. Why? Because all the sin, boom, it's been forgiven. It's been taken care of. There's no more need for you to come and accuse us. So you get booted out of heaven. So God kicks him out. He has, he has, he has Michael kicked him out. And it says the great dragon was thrown down, the ancient serpent who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the world, thrown down to earth, and his angels thrown down with him. Crazy. And then here's the point. Here's where I want to kind of end this. Verse 10. I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now the salvation Pj Verdin: Mm. Randy: and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. Now pay attention here. It says that that's Pj Verdin: That's a mic drop, bro. Randy: a mic drop, man. And it says right there it says, Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom and authority. Of his Christ have come. Flip over to let's see, where was it? Matthew 28, verse 18. Jesus said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. We just peeled back the curtain and we saw what was happening in the heavenly realms after the resurrection. But remember that he was born, he was caught up to the throne room of God. Then there was this war, Satan's kicked out. The Bible tells us all authority has been given to Jesus, and Jesus. Comes back to earth is resurrected, and he tells his people right before he sends them out to go spread the good news. Guess what, guys? You didn't see all this stuff. I'm gonna tell John about it later. But all authority's been given to me. Pj Verdin: Well, and and just the point, think about it. Now the salvation and the power in the kingdom of our God. Now the salvation. So there was no salvation for us. You know, the people who thought that they were having they had salvation through the law knew that they were doing it right. The only way that we're saved is by Jesus. So to say, okay, now that this has happened, now the salvation like just again from from from sentence to sentence is is It's huge, man. Like I said, it's like a mic drop. It's like, okay, this is basically like you said, okay, you just see these things happening, like almost like you're you're watching that movie, just like boom, okay, this happens. There's a fight, you know, war in heaven. He's kicked out, you know, now that salvation has been established. Like, it's just it's crazy, man. It's crazy. And and and you know, but we Randy: It it is crazy. It i and anyone who's go ahead, sorry. Pj Verdin: no no. I'm just saying, we just accepted the narrative with and and and that's the thing, like that's the mind melt. Think about this. You go and find in the Bible where it says that it worked out like that. You're not gonna that it worked out the way we all believe, right? Where we're some somehow or another, the Bible starts with in the beginning, you know, there was nothing and God created everything. And then XYZ it happened. Okay, well, where where's this big event? Like, okay, where but but but listen, in the middle of all this, Satan rebelled and I kicked him out of heaven and the third of the angels, and and you're like, okay. So that's wh how we believe I that's that's we we like okay I know in in here somewhere in the margins somewhere this huge event has happened already. And it's like, well, no, that's why it's not you're not gonna find that in these margins because it it hasn't. And just in in the same way you gotta go from Genesis to Job, right? You which what you have to do is if you're trying to find where that fall happens, is you gotta jump from, you know, From there to to Matthew to to Revelation. And then you're like, okay, now you understand, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, hey, look, this happens. And then now let let's let's proceed with the story. You know what I mean? Like it's it's it's it's nuts, bro. It's nuts. Randy: It it it it is nuts, man. And it's blowing my mind the more I get into it, but it makes so much sense because I I don't know how many people out there are who are who who might be thinking like I was, but I've read Revelation several times. And when I read, like, hey, chapter 12, now I'm reading what looks like the birth of the Messiah and like what's going on here? Like I'm 12 chapters into what I thought was the end of the world, right? And and now I'm reading about like the birth of Jesus. It has to be the birth of Jesus. And I'm like, how does that make any sense? Well, it makes sense if you understand that it's not all chronological and it's not all future and it's not like all things happening here on earth, that it's kind of going back and forth between things happening here, things happen behind the scenes. Sometimes it's things that were happening behind the scenes and events that have already passed. And it's like, man, I don't understand it all. I don't know the timeline in my mind, but this is what I want to get into in our next episode. So make sure you guys stay in tune to the next to the walk talk channel. And follow us for the future episodes because I definitely want to get into what is probably the most realistic timeline of revelations and what elements of it has already happened versus might have, you know, might be happening now or might be happening to come. And it's all just building on this whole idea of of what what was it called earlier? We we mentioned that the the the geographical world of Deuteronomy 32. Man, I for I forgot I already I got it. Pj Verdin: Cosmos or something. Yeah. Yeah. Randy: Yeah, I gotta go back to my notes and and the the cosmic geology or the gr the geographical dominion of Deuteronomy 32. It's making so many other things make sense to me, man. It really is, including the most cryptic book of the Bible, in my opinion, Revelations is starting to make so much more sense. So I'm looking forward to doing more research and and and digging into it even more and looking forward to our next discussion on that topic. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. And let me just end by saying this, man. just so y'all know, this is in no way, shape, or form trying to change any aspects of the gospel or anything like that or or anybody's necessarily beliefs on on what what people call or deem salvation issues, right? But this is just two guys who love the word of God and love seeking and learning and and and and seeing these these things unraveled in ways that are like, wait a minute. Like that's the piece of the puzzle that was missing that I'm like, how do Like how do I reconcile this part against that part whenever you know you you you study your Bible enough to know that like man God is a consistent person. You know, he is he's very he you can see him, you know what I mean? and and so to kind of get these little nuggets is just exciting. So I mean we're not trying to sway Randy: It is exciting. Pj Verdin: we're not trying to sway anybody's beliefs of or of well, you know, is is there I I don't know anything salvationally related. That's not the the intent. This is just an exciting new new perspective to to view this from that it whenever you add it up with everything else that we do know, just makes so much sense. It it's and it's awesome. It's it's it's awesome. So Randy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, all right, brother. Well, hey, I think that just about does it for this episode of the Walk Talk Faith in Motion podcast with your hosts, Randy Dupree and PJ Verden. Thank you all so Pj Verdin: Hey. Randy: much for listening. If you haven't already, please like and subscribe and follow the show. And before you go, make sure to let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.